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0:14

to the people. It's

0:19

been a horrendous campaign for the Conservatives

0:21

so far, careening from disaster to catastrophe.

0:24

But the Tories don't have the exclusive

0:26

on political drama. This is Podsafe the

0:28

UK, I'm Nish Kumar. And I'm Coco

0:30

Cardon. Today we're looking beyond Westminster,

0:33

exploring devolution of power to Scotland,

0:35

Wales and Northern Ireland. And

0:37

later we'll be catching up on some of the wackiest moments

0:39

of the week. But first. Never let

0:41

anyone tell you that independence

0:43

is separate from people's

0:45

daily lives and concerns. It

0:48

is fundamental to their lives and

0:50

their concerns. It is

0:52

about where decisions about Scotland

0:54

are made. Decisions over our

0:56

economy, our health service, our

0:59

living standards. So on July the

1:01

4th, I'm asking you to vote

1:03

SNP. That's John Swinney, leader of the

1:05

SNP at the launch of their manifesto

1:08

on Wednesday. Look, Scottish independence clearly

1:10

has pride of place on page one

1:12

of the SNP manifesto. But it

1:14

might not be the issue that matters most to

1:16

Scottish voters. And it certainly might not be enough

1:19

to override a bad year for the SNP with

1:21

finance scandals and the defenestration

1:24

of Humza Yousaf as leader. Despite

1:27

aspirations for independence remaining strong amongst the

1:29

public in Scotland, more than a third

1:31

of 2019 SNP voters

1:33

are moving to another party, according to a

1:35

poll on Tuesday from YouGov. The poll suggested

1:38

they're moving to Labour and they're doing so

1:40

because they want to affect the party that

1:42

becomes the new UK government. As always,

1:44

take polling data with a pinch of salt.

1:46

These are just a snapshot. But even if

1:49

independence isn't the biggest issue of the campaign,

1:51

there is some interesting news in the pipeline,

1:53

not just for Scotland, but for all devolved

1:55

nations. Just a reminder for any of our

1:58

international listeners when we talk about... about devolution,

2:00

we're talking about the ongoing process of

2:02

Westminster ceding decision-making power to the countries

2:05

that make up the UK, Scotland, Wales

2:07

and Northern Ireland. So it gives them

2:09

more control over things like how they

2:11

spend their budget. Right, so in

2:14

their manifesto set out last week, Labour

2:16

pledged a new approach to collaboration between

2:18

Westminster, Stormont, Hollywood and the Senate and

2:20

the regions of England as well. Labour

2:22

has pledged to establish a council of

2:24

the nations and regions, bringing together the

2:26

Prime Minister, First Minister of Wales and

2:28

Scotland, First and Deputy Minister of Northern

2:31

Ireland and the mayors

2:33

of combined authorities in England. But

2:35

devolution is just one piece of the

2:37

puzzle of how to make the UK

2:39

feel like it's more cohesive. So now

2:42

let's turn to Wales, where this week,

2:44

populist Blohard and Nigel Farage has launched

2:46

the reform manifesto and

2:48

the Labour-devolved administration in Wales has

2:50

been having a particularly difficult time.

2:53

So we're going to be joined now to

2:56

chat about Wales with Will Heywood. The last

2:58

time Will joined us was back in March

3:00

and we just heard the news that Vaughan

3:02

Gething had become the first minister and the

3:05

first black leader of any European country. But

3:07

two weeks ago amid a growing scandal around

3:09

donations to Gethings campaign, he lost a vote

3:11

of no confidence in the Welsh Senate. Joining

3:14

us now to discuss this bombshell is, as

3:16

I said, Will Heywood, who is the Welsh

3:18

affairs editor at Wales Online. Welcome, Will. Hi,

3:21

thanks for having me. Last time you were

3:23

here, you did say that Vaughan Gething was in

3:25

for a rocky ride. I'm sure you have your,

3:27

I told you so, T-shirt, somewhere in the room.

3:29

So, I mean, you called it, right? It

3:32

was written in the stars, I suppose. Yeah, and

3:34

also this is sort of a creepy tradition

3:36

with you, Will, because you actually, even before

3:38

this, last time we talked about the

3:41

fact that you accurately predicted Vaughan Gethings

3:43

win and pretty much accurately

3:45

predicted the percentage wins as well. So

3:47

I mean, like, what's going on, Will?

3:49

Are you a soothsayer? No,

3:51

I am the stop clock and you've come to me

3:53

yesterday. I think that

3:56

is what happens here. Okay.

4:00

So could you catch everyone up just very

4:02

quickly? What went down two weeks ago? Okay,

4:05

so it's been

4:07

well documented the issues that Von Goethein has had

4:09

with his donations. This

4:11

has culminated in a leak which came

4:13

out and it came from within the

4:16

ministerial labor group where it showed that

4:18

Von Goethein had said in a message

4:20

during peak time COVID, I'm going to

4:23

delete these messages because they could be

4:25

captured by a freedom information request. Now

4:28

he told the COVID inquiry

4:30

in Wales when it came to Wales that

4:33

he had not deleted any messages that

4:35

they'd been lost when his phone was lost. Now he

4:38

then sacked a member of his cabinet called Hannah

4:40

Blython and she had supported Jeremy Miles

4:42

who was his opponent in the leadership race. This

4:46

triggered a series of events so there

4:48

are 60 members of the Senate so that's

4:50

the Welsh parliament and Wales and and Labour

4:52

only have 30 of those members

4:55

which means they've been in an agreement with Plaid Cymru

4:57

which is our equivalent of the SNP and

5:00

what they said was it's not a coalition

5:03

but Plaid Cymru will help keep Labour

5:05

in government get their budgets through in

5:07

exchange for certain policy commitments but

5:10

after the incident with Hannah Blython and all of

5:12

the donations saga Plaid Cymru have said no we're

5:14

done with this we're going. So that meant that

5:16

Von Goethein no longer could control a majority in

5:18

the Senate. Then the Welsh conservatives

5:21

brought forward this no confidence vote and

5:24

the conservatives voted against him the Plaid

5:26

Cymru voted against him and the solo

5:29

liberal democrat the what the lone Lib

5:31

Dem also voted against him. The loneliest

5:33

Lib Dem in the world. I

5:35

think they like to see themselves like a leopard like

5:37

a loner not just nobody wants them but but

5:40

because Labour have 30 of

5:43

the 60 members if it was a draw

5:45

that it goes with a continuation

5:47

of the status quo and that would

5:49

mean that he would be okay. However

5:52

two of these own party members were

5:54

ill on that day so they just

5:56

didn't turn up to vote. Now

5:58

maybe they were ill there was

6:00

something going around, there was something in the water,

6:02

but they could also have voted remotely by logging

6:04

in at home, and they could have even given

6:07

a proxy to somebody else within the Senate to

6:09

vote for them, and they didn't. So he lost

6:11

that vote. Now, it wasn't a binding

6:13

vote, but it does mean

6:15

that the Welsh Parliament, the democratically elected Welsh

6:17

Parliament, in Wales, we spend so much time

6:19

trying to convince people that you

6:22

need to take this thing seriously. He then said, no,

6:24

this is a gimmick. I'm ignoring this.

6:26

Now, bear in mind, homes are abusive. The

6:28

threat of losing a no

6:30

confidence vote in Scotland stepped down. Voorgeffing said,

6:32

no, this is a gimmick. I will not

6:34

be stepping down. People were poorly. This isn't

6:36

fair. As

6:38

you can imagine, that has been seen

6:40

within his own party and outside as

6:42

a very, it's a very

6:45

sticky wicket for him to be playing on now. He's

6:48

lucky because the general election was called. And

6:50

that means a lot of Labour MSs, so

6:53

Senate members, are uninclined to rock

6:55

the boat at the moment. But that's

6:57

soon going to be done. And he's going

6:59

to face a real tricky issue of trying to get

7:01

his budget through when we get into the autumn, because

7:03

he doesn't command a majority. No other party is going

7:05

to support him. And the long knives are probably going

7:07

to be out from within his own party as well.

7:09

And how is this translating at the

7:12

moment in terms of the general

7:14

election campaign? Because obviously, this is where we

7:16

get into the kind of complex interrelationship between

7:18

the devolved parliaments and the

7:21

Westminster Parliament. So we've got this

7:23

tension going on in the Senate.

7:25

And now, in the midst of

7:27

all of this, the Welsh people

7:29

are going to try and vote

7:31

to who they send to Westminster

7:33

as their representatives. Is this rocking

7:35

the boat for Labour in terms

7:37

of their Welsh support for the

7:39

Westminster vote? It's coming up

7:41

on the doorstep. So Labour activists are saying

7:43

that people are raising that issue about concerns

7:45

around the First Minister and he's links to

7:48

the person who made the donations to him.

7:50

And the lead in Wales is

7:52

such that actually, it would take

7:54

some fairly catastrophic to be losing in Wales.

7:57

And the last election was a real high watermark for the tour.

8:00

I've seen there are predictions that potentially

8:02

it could be a Tory wipeout in Wales. There are

8:04

a few seats which are too close to call. Although

8:07

their safest seat was actually Craig Williams, who

8:09

was the right-hand man of Rishi Sunak, who

8:11

made a bet on the date of the election. So

8:14

yeah, we have discussed

8:17

that previously. Just

8:19

in case anybody's missed that story. This

8:22

is, you know, one of Rishi Sunak's closest

8:25

sort of aides in parliament. This

8:28

is, he's got one of

8:30

the few potentially safe Tory

8:33

seats in Wales and he is

8:35

being investigated because he placed

8:37

a bet on the date of the general

8:39

election. Yes, yeah, Craig Williams.

8:41

People listen to the podcast. Will sort of

8:43

has his head in his hands. Something's listening

8:45

to that. He's sort

8:47

of rubbing his eyes like he's trying to alleviate himself

8:50

of a migraine. You

8:52

just can't believe it, can you? We've got one seat.

8:54

Right. We just don't need to mess up this

8:56

seat. I have to say, Will,

8:59

annoyed by politicians, is one of my favourite

9:01

recurring characters on PodSaver UK because last time

9:03

we were here, you were talking about the

9:05

donations that Vaughan Gefing had received. And I

9:08

remember seeing you on Twitter about a week

9:10

or so later in such frustration being like,

9:12

why does nobody care about this? This is

9:14

such a big story. And then lo and

9:17

behold, now it is a big story. So

9:19

I think that's more credence

9:21

to this Yura Susaya. We've

9:26

had all the manifestos from the UK parties

9:28

now and Labour are promising a new

9:30

council of the nations and regions, bringing

9:32

together the PM, Metro Mayors and Welsh,

9:34

Scottish and Northern Irish leaders. Is

9:37

that going to make this more transparent? Is that

9:39

going to improve things? And also, how has it

9:41

gone down in Wales? Well,

9:44

among Welsh Labour, this is actually really, really

9:46

contentious. So both Vaughan Gefing and Jerry Miles,

9:48

the people who ran to replace Mark Drakeford,

9:50

both of them said, we want the devolution

9:52

of justice and we want the

9:55

devolution of policing. The Gordon

9:57

Brown report, which Labour Commission suggested

9:59

something along those lines, not necessarily policing,

10:02

but UK Labour have completely ruled that out. Yvette

10:04

Cooper and Joe Stevens, Joe Stevens is the shadow

10:07

secretary of state for Wales, have said, no,

10:09

we're not going to do that. Scotland

10:12

has the evolution of policing, Northern

10:14

Ireland does, but Wales doesn't. That's

10:16

a historical anomaly among any other

10:18

things. But it feeds

10:20

into this perception that actually, Welsh

10:23

Labour are not perceived as like kind

10:25

of equal partners by UK Labour. The

10:27

perception is that they're seen as just

10:29

another branch and that's a

10:31

real issue because there's a reason that

10:33

Welsh Labour is the most successful democratic

10:35

party in history. They've won every, they've

10:37

been the biggest party in every election

10:39

since 1920. Whereas in Scotland,

10:41

Scottish Labour, 10 years ago, got absolutely

10:43

decimated. And the reason is Welsh Labour

10:45

is seen as really, really Welsh. It's

10:48

a really strong brand. And

10:52

the perception is now UK Labour and

10:54

also Vaughan Gethin are missing with this

10:56

massive success. It was Roderick Morgan who

10:58

coined the phrase clear red water. And

11:00

that was the idea that there

11:03

should be clear red water between Welsh Labour

11:05

and UK Labour. And that's what's kept Welsh

11:08

Labour successful. And that phrase is

11:10

actually written by Mark Drakeford when he was

11:12

Roderick Morgan's special advisor. But now

11:14

there's this scene of this blurring of the

11:16

lines that Welsh Labour is just a branch

11:18

of UK Labour. And at the next Welsh

11:21

parliament elections, that is something that Plaid Cymru,

11:23

the Welsh Nationalist Party are likely going to

11:25

try and capitalize on because it was really

11:27

hard for them when they had Mark Drakeford,

11:29

who advocated for more devolution. He called it

11:32

DevoMax Home Rule within the United Kingdom. He

11:34

spoke Welsh fluently, he was a first language

11:36

Welsh speaker. And now you've

11:38

got someone who is very much seen

11:40

as UK Labour's puppet, especially because Vaughan

11:42

Gethin can't say anything. It's

11:44

only the support of UK Labour that's kind of

11:47

keeping him in the job at the moment. And

11:49

there's an argument that that's exactly how UK Labour

11:51

want him to be. Just going back to this

11:53

Council of the Nations and Regions, surely that would

11:56

deliver what Mark Drakeford was talking about? The devil's

11:58

in the detail always. It's

34:00

a different ballgame over here on this side of

34:02

the RSC. So, Luke, last

34:04

time we spoke to you, power-sharing was

34:07

just returning to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

34:09

Civil servants had been running the government

34:11

for almost two years after the unionist

34:13

DUP party pulled out in protest at

34:16

the UK government's Brexit deal. But in

34:18

March, the DUP leader, Sir Geoffrey Donaldson,

34:20

then resigned after being charged with historic

34:23

sex offences, including rape and gross indecency

34:25

against a child. He denies the allegations.

34:27

He was sitting as an independent MP

34:30

in Westminster until Parliament was dissolved. He's actually

34:33

due in court on July 3, which is

34:35

the day before the general election. Amanda, could

34:37

this have any bearing on the vote the

34:40

next day in Northern Ireland? Well,

34:42

it is something that people are talking about.

34:45

You know, obviously the level of

34:47

polling and information that we get,

34:50

you know, isn't this extensive in Northern Ireland as

34:52

it would be in Britain. There's been one

34:54

poll since all those

34:56

court allegations emerged and they did

34:59

show that the DUP had taken a little bit

35:01

of a slap, a little bit of a dip.

35:03

But I think that the DUP is under pressure

35:05

on a range of fronts. You know,

35:07

what's the fallout from the

35:09

court case going to be? But also the

35:13

TUV, the sort of hardline

35:15

unionist small unionist party in

35:17

Northern Ireland is standing in

35:19

that sort of unusual reform

35:21

UK link up that it has

35:23

and doesn't have. But they very

35:26

much don't like the DUP's return to

35:28

government based on the deal that the

35:30

UK government and the UK came to

35:33

for Northern Ireland. So the DUP is

35:35

facing pressure, not only because

35:37

of that court case, but also because of

35:40

dissatisfaction among some unionists about the post Brexit

35:42

trade in arrangements and a return to government.

35:44

And we kind of are in the sort

35:47

of strange position where Storm

35:49

has just back up and run in for a few months

35:52

and immediately the parties are being thrown into

35:54

an electoral campaign where they're competing against each

35:56

other. So they're in government together, but competing

35:58

against each other. And of

36:00

course the constitutional question is always

36:02

at the top of people's minds and voting

36:05

tactically. There's only 18 seats in Northern Ireland.

36:07

So I think one of the big stories

36:09

of the election would be does

36:11

Sinn Fein emerge as the largest party of

36:13

Westminster after emerging as the largest party of

36:16

local government and Stormont? So just to follow

36:18

up on that, you know, for our international

36:20

listeners, Sinn Fein don't take their seats in

36:22

Westminster. It's in alignment with their beliefs that

36:25

British institutions should have no power in Ireland

36:27

and consequently they should have no power in

36:29

Britain. You mentioned there that Sinn

36:31

Fein are looking to make some gains. How

36:33

significant would it be if they win all

36:35

the levels of government? Yeah,

36:38

well, it would certainly add to that sort

36:40

of building picture that they would like a

36:42

border poll in the future on the

36:45

future constitutional position of

36:47

Northern Ireland. As you mentioned there, they don't take

36:49

their seats. I think this comes up

36:53

every Westminster election that Sinn Fein are

36:55

abstentionists. Whereas the smaller nationalist, Irish nationalist

36:58

part of the SDLP do take their

37:00

seats. Now they don't believe

37:02

the oath that they have to swear

37:04

to take their seats. And

37:07

I think sometimes it can be like a

37:09

binary discussion. You know, if one party is

37:11

right, the other party has to be wrong.

37:13

Whereas you can argue that there's merit in

37:16

both positions, either saying that you

37:18

don't want to be part of it or that you are prepared

37:20

to be part of it. But

37:22

you know, it's only 18 seats that

37:24

we have in Northern Ireland. So it's

37:26

very rare that parties here would be

37:28

kingmakers as described. You know, that did

37:30

happen previously when the DUP propped

37:32

up the Conservatives. But I think if the electoral

37:35

fortunes of Labour are to be

37:38

believed, then a lot of people will

37:40

be focusing on if Labour forms the

37:42

next government, what their policies will be with

37:44

regard to Northern Ireland. But we

37:46

don't even have the manifesto details. There's going

37:48

to be a manifesto launch

37:50

today and then the rest are scheduled for

37:53

the rest of the week. You

37:55

know, elections in Northern Ireland, unfortunately, are very

37:57

rarely about policy. They're usually just a policy.

37:59

about what people want for the future. And

38:02

also it'll be interesting to see if that third

38:04

block, that alliance sort of cross community block makes

38:06

any gains on the one seat that they got

38:08

last time. Yeah, there's kind of three sort

38:11

of, this three sort of sections

38:14

within the kind of Northern Irish voting

38:17

block. We've got the unionists, we've got

38:19

the nationalists and then there's the kind

38:21

of alliance who are actually neutral on

38:24

the union. And it seems like the voters for

38:26

the, within those three different

38:28

blocks have slightly different priorities. So

38:31

polling last week in the Belfast Telegraph showed that

38:33

the commitment to Northern Ireland remaining in the union

38:35

was the top issue for 71% of unionist voters

38:38

in this election. But for 66%

38:40

of Sinn Fein and SDLP voters,

38:42

both of which are nationalist parties,

38:44

the cost of living crisis is the

38:46

single biggest issue. And for alliance voters,

38:48

it's even higher, 77%. So

38:51

the cost of living is the most important

38:53

issue on July the 4th. Is

38:56

there a danger for unionist parties

38:58

that they're talking too much about

39:01

the union and preserving the union and

39:03

not enough about things that are actually

39:05

impacting on people's day-to-day lives in Northern

39:07

Ireland? Well, they would

39:09

probably reject that assessment, but generally

39:13

what we have seen is the unionist

39:15

parties are focusing on the strength of

39:18

the union and non-unionist parties are focusing

39:20

on Tory austerity and getting the

39:23

Tory government out. And I think

39:25

that's partially because they don't want

39:27

to really be attacking each other

39:30

because the sort of power sharing up with

39:32

Stormont is so fragile,

39:34

but certainly the cost

39:36

of living is a major issue

39:39

for everyone, whether you're unionist Republican or

39:41

other. And that definitely is

39:43

something that is coming up. But of

39:45

course unionist parties are focused on

39:47

the fact that there's a change in political landscape

39:49

and that the sort of majority and dominance that

39:52

they had in the past doesn't exist in the

39:54

way that it did, which is why you're seeing

39:56

sort of lobby groups popping up

39:58

either to promote. and New

40:01

Ireland or to promote strengthening the union. But

40:03

it'll certainly be an interesting one. It

40:05

always is in Northern Ireland and

40:07

there may be a few shocks along

40:10

the way. I haven't gone down to

40:12

the bookies just yet, but I've made

40:14

my choices and we'll

40:16

see whether I'm right or wrong. The

40:19

last two Westminster elections, I've got 17 out

40:21

of the 18 constituencies. Oh my God! Oh, wow!

40:24

But it's the same one that I've got wrong

40:26

on both times and it's been foil up in

40:28

the Northwest. So maybe I'll get it

40:30

right this time. I don't know. Okay, well, after the

40:33

election, we will obviously be checking back in with you

40:35

to find out whether you managed to get 18 out

40:37

of 18. But in

40:39

the meantime, thank you so much for joining us. Thank

40:41

you. Cheers, guys. Discover

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follow it Visit P-town. And

41:27

now it's time for the section where

41:29

we chew over the most delightful clips

41:31

of the campaign, which I've lovingly retitled

41:33

charming and quizzical moments. I've even got

41:35

a new theme tune for it. What

41:45

the fuck was that? Who

41:48

made that? Where in the

41:50

stock music did you get that from? So

41:54

last week we called out for some suggestions for

41:56

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