0:00

This is The Guardian. A

1:02

dramatic night in America and one

1:04

Joe Biden will want to forget.

1:07

I really don't know what he said at the end of their sentence.

1:10

I don't think he knows what he

1:12

said either. President Biden and Donald Trump

1:14

took to the debate stage in Atlanta,

1:16

Georgia for their first and perhaps only

1:18

head-to-head of this year's presidential campaign. They

1:21

argued over their records on immigration,

1:24

abortion, the economy and their

1:26

golf game. Yes, you heard that right.

1:28

See this one, I know this one.

1:31

Let's not act like children. President

1:33

Trump, we're going to learn. Let's not act like children. Not

1:35

much doubt over who came out on top,

1:37

but it certainly wasn't the American people.

1:40

I'm Jonathan Friedland, columnist at The

1:42

Guardian, and this is Politics Weekly

1:45

America. I

1:51

think going into this that everyone

1:54

was extremely aware that Biden

1:56

needed to put on an extremely

1:58

strong performance. Nikki McCann

2:00

Ramirez is a politics reporter

2:02

at Rolling Stone magazine. So

2:05

I think for myself and a lot of

2:07

people going into this, this debate felt

2:10

really consequential, especially amongst

2:12

Biden's perception amongst undecided

2:14

voters and how the

2:16

rest of this campaign would unfold. That

2:19

was how you felt going into it. It

2:22

is the middle of the night UK time. It's late

2:24

where you are. We have both now just watched that

2:26

debate. But gut

2:28

reaction, what did you think? I

2:31

think that went a lot worse for

2:33

Biden than even a lot of people

2:35

could have anticipated. I

2:37

think it was an incredibly poor

2:39

performance by the president, especially

2:42

in the beginning, which is, you know,

2:44

when you as a candidate want to hook viewers

2:46

who want to come out strong, you want to

2:48

come out swinging. He seemed

2:51

extremely low on energy. He was

2:53

fumbling over his words. We

2:55

have a thousand billionaires in America. And

2:59

what's happening? They're in a situation where they,

3:01

in fact, pay 8.2 percent

3:03

in taxes. If they just paid 24 percent,

3:06

25 percent, either one of those numbers,

3:09

they'd raise $500 million, billion

3:11

dollars, I should say. His

3:13

answers, Trump, by

3:16

contrast, seemed his

3:18

usual self. I can't

3:20

say that the performance was above and beyond

3:22

what we expected for Trump. By the time

3:24

we finished, we did a great job. We got a lot

3:26

of credit for the economy, a lot of credit for the

3:28

military and no wars and so many

3:30

other things. Everything was rocking good. But

3:33

the contrast it drew between Biden,

3:36

where Biden just plainly seemed incredibly

3:38

old and uncomfortable on the debate

3:40

stage. Making sure that we're able

3:42

to make every single solitary person

3:46

eligible for what I've been able

3:48

to do with the COVID, excuse

3:51

me, with dealing

3:53

with. And I think this

3:55

is raising a lot of alarms, not

3:57

just among voters who were looking

3:59

for toward this debate to

4:02

quell their concerns, but

4:04

also amongst the Democratic establishment

4:06

and other lawmakers who in

4:09

general election years tend to rely

4:11

on a strong presidential candidate to

4:14

help pull down ballot races to

4:16

victory, whether that's going to pan

4:18

out this year. Yeah,

4:20

as we're speaking, it seems the Democratic

4:22

establishment or many people in it are

4:25

freaking out. I mean, people are texting

4:27

reporters and anxiously saying, can we move

4:29

forward with this guy on the ticket?

4:31

I mean, we'll get into the specifics

4:34

and substance, but in a way that

4:36

is secondary. It was about the physicality,

4:38

the optics. And the big

4:40

problem is you said going into this

4:42

Biden has had his old, old, old

4:45

and tonight he just looked old. The

4:47

voice was so reedy and

4:49

whispery. It seems to me that Trump's

4:51

whole theory of this campaign has been

4:53

I'm strong. Biden's weak. And we saw

4:56

that played out just in how they're

4:58

in their physical demeanor and capacity on

5:00

that debate stage. It

5:02

cannot be overstated what an incredibly

5:04

stark contrast it was. Biden,

5:07

I'm amazed they didn't give him a

5:09

throat lozenge before he went on stage.

5:12

We've now seen some sort of damage

5:15

control reports that he has a bit of a

5:17

cold, but I don't

5:19

know how the campaign is going to be

5:21

able to spin this in a positive light

5:24

later on in the debate. Biden did

5:26

manage to land a couple

5:28

punches. But like you said, it

5:31

really felt like physically,

5:33

even the moments where he was

5:35

rhetorically strong, where he was able

5:37

to give coherent,

5:39

punchy responses, felt

5:42

subdued given that his overall

5:44

demeanor, his overall stage presence

5:46

was so watered down and

5:48

so weak. This is a guy

5:50

who says Hitler's done some good things. I'd like to know

5:53

what they are. Good things Hitler's

5:55

done. That's what he said. This guy has

5:57

no sense of American democracy. And

5:59

I think for the Trump campaign, this has just

6:01

been a gift on a silver platter.

6:04

You really see how Trump,

6:06

despite the many lies, the many falsehoods

6:09

he told on stage, the many answers

6:11

he outright avoided giving, and

6:13

the various rambling statements, still

6:16

felt like a charismatic, prominent

6:19

presence on that stage,

6:22

that regardless of how coherent

6:25

and concise his message was, I

6:28

think made a much stronger impact with viewers.

6:31

Yeah, I would agree with that assessment completely.

6:33

I think two things shaped the

6:36

way this would have been perceived and

6:38

received by the American public. One,

6:40

the physical things we've talked about, maybe some people

6:42

hearing this will say, that's trivial, I care about

6:44

the substance and the issues, but that's how these

6:47

messages are communicated. But the

6:49

second thing is the format,

6:52

the way this thing was conducted as

6:54

a debate, the moderators, Jake Tapper of

6:56

CNN and Dana Bash of CNN, did

6:59

not do what has happened in previous debates,

7:01

which is to jump in and question

7:03

interrogating, grill and fact check. And

7:05

therefore it meant that Donald Trump was able just to

7:08

say a whole lot of kind of crazy things, but

7:11

without interruption or without challenge. Look, we had

7:13

the safest border in history. Now we have

7:15

the worst border in history. There's never been

7:17

anything like it. And people are dying all

7:19

over the place, including the people that are

7:21

coming up in caravans. President Biden.

7:24

So you did have this dynamic where

7:26

you had sort of doddery guy on the

7:28

right, often incoherent, and we'll get into

7:30

some of the specifics versus, you know,

7:32

stream of lies on the other side. But they

7:34

sounded coherent because they came out in a strong

7:36

voice and no one challenged them. I

7:39

think CNN felt that relying

7:41

on the system they created of muting

7:43

microphones would be enough. But

7:45

there were multiple instances where

7:48

particularly Trump was

7:50

asked critical questions about

7:52

his potential policies going into

7:54

a second administration that Trump

7:57

just completely ignored, rambled

7:59

about whatever. it was on his mind and

8:02

Bash and Tapper made no

8:04

effort until very late in

8:06

the debate to redirect the

8:09

conversation, to restate the question,

8:11

to press Trump for

8:13

an answer. A couple instances were a

8:15

question about the fentanyl epidemic, what he

8:17

would do to help lower childcare costs.

8:20

He had to be asked three times

8:22

if he would accept the results of

8:24

the election in November and only

8:26

the third time did he was asked did

8:28

he give a deflective

8:31

answer, the boilerplate answer he's been giving

8:33

for the past couple months of oh

8:35

if I think it's fair and honest

8:37

then sure I'll accept it. President Trump,

8:39

the question was will you accept the

8:41

results of the election regardless of who

8:43

wins yes or no please. If

8:45

it's a fair and legal and

8:48

good election absolutely. I would have

8:50

much rather accepted these but

8:53

the the fraud and everything else was

8:55

ridiculous out of your want well. He

8:57

also completely ducked a question on

8:59

if you would support the creation of

9:02

an independent Palestinian state and American

9:04

voters aren't just watching these debates

9:06

to see which of these two

9:09

candidates feels like the older older

9:11

man here. They're watching to

9:13

understand what policies these candidates are

9:16

going to come in with and

9:18

it really felt like

9:20

CNN had the opportunity here

9:22

to really force the

9:24

candidates to explain to American voters

9:27

what differentiates them in terms of

9:29

policy in terms of their attitude

9:31

toward American institutions and that did

9:33

not take place. This was a

9:36

complete disservice to the American

9:38

public on multiple levels. Yeah

9:41

I think many people will feel exactly that

9:43

way. Let's just go

9:45

into some specifics to flesh out the

9:48

the point and I think you and I see it the same

9:50

way. Let's start first or with this performance

9:52

problem of Joe Biden's and the kind

9:55

of incoherence. There was one moment where

9:57

he was asked about the economy and

9:59

it ended up in a line about

10:01

Medicare that I think confused anybody watching

10:04

it and certainly would have had Democrats

10:06

with their head in their hands. Everything

10:09

we have to do with, look,

10:14

if we finally

10:16

beat Medicare. Thank you, President Biden.

10:18

President Trump? He was right. He

10:21

did beat Medicare. He beat it to death. Yeah.

10:23

Moments like that took place throughout

10:26

the debate and it really felt

10:28

like Biden's own stumbling over

10:30

his words were really just

10:32

handing Trump opportunities to sort

10:35

of turn around the conversation and

10:37

be like, yeah, absolutely. You bashed

10:39

Medicare to death. And

10:42

there were several moments within the

10:44

debate where Biden seemed to just

10:47

lose his train of thought and Trump

10:49

would just jump in and sort of

10:51

hit him with a reminder, hit not

10:54

only hit Biden with a reminder, but hit viewers

10:56

with a reminder of all

10:58

these things he's been saying that Biden is too

11:01

old to handle this role, the

11:03

role of the presidency. There was another moment

11:05

where Biden sort of trailed off at the

11:07

end of a sentence and Trump's response was,

11:09

quote, I really don't know what he said

11:11

at the end of that sentence. I don't

11:13

think he knows what he said either. And

11:16

I'm going to continue to move until we get

11:18

the total ban on the

11:20

total initiative relative to what we're

11:22

going to do with more border

11:24

patrol and more asylum

11:27

officers. I

11:29

really don't know what he said at the end

11:31

of that sentence. I don't think he knows what

11:33

he said either. Look, and the terrible thing about

11:36

that moment is even though it was Trump and

11:38

all the people who maybe hate Trump would have

11:40

sort of found themselves nodding because it did sound

11:42

like Biden himself didn't quite know what he was

11:45

trying to say there. There

11:47

were some moments where

11:49

Biden did really manage to

11:52

kind of stick it to Trump. There was an instance

11:55

where they were

11:57

discussing immigration and Trump

11:59

tried to turn it around and say that

12:01

Biden had abandoned veterans,

12:04

that he hated the military,

12:06

that he was undoing all these

12:08

policies in support of veterans, and

12:11

at one point demanded that Biden

12:13

apologize to him when Biden pointed

12:15

out that Trump had called deceased

12:17

veterans suckers and losers during

12:19

a visit to France. My son was

12:21

not a loser, was not a sucker. You're the

12:24

sucker, you're the loser. But that

12:26

moment itself was

12:28

overshadowed by

12:30

the overall performance. And Trump

12:34

is far more used to being

12:36

on stage for really long periods

12:38

of time. He- And being on

12:40

camera, it's something he's used to, isn't he? Absolutely.

12:43

I think one of the big contrasts

12:45

here and one of the issues going

12:47

into this debate was

12:49

Biden Biden

12:52

and his campaign, the White House, are

12:55

so much more calculated in

12:57

what public appearances Biden makes. There's a

12:59

lot more preparation that goes into them.

13:01

They tend to be much more selective.

13:04

Whereas Trump, he's taking

13:06

the stage multiple times a week

13:09

at rallies. He's rambling for

13:11

an hour plus on a

13:13

weekly basis in front

13:15

of cameras, in front of crowds. He

13:18

has an onstage persona

13:21

that he has perfected

13:23

through sheer quantity of

13:26

events. I

13:28

think that distinction was very clear

13:30

in this debate. It feels

13:32

like Biden in his preparation, lacked

13:35

preparedness on how

13:38

to retain a stage presence when

13:41

you're not the focus of the conversation. And

13:43

I think it was really visible in those

13:46

moments where the two were being showed side

13:48

by side. I think that's right. I mean, the

13:50

effect of all of this was

13:52

that Donald Trump was able to get

13:54

away with a whole lot of falsehoods.

13:56

The fact checkers have been unbelievably busy

13:59

tonight. off stage, not the moderators

14:01

on stage, there was no real-time fact-checking

14:04

for anyone watching the broadcast. It didn't

14:06

really come from Biden, certainly didn't come

14:08

from the CNN host. So just

14:11

to give an example of that, I

14:13

thought the exchange on abortion. A lot

14:15

of people thought this would be Joe

14:17

Biden's strongest point, that it was under

14:20

the judges appointed, those three Supreme Court

14:22

judges appointed by Donald Trump, that Roe

14:24

vs. Wade, the constitutional protection of a

14:27

woman's right to an abortion, that

14:29

was overturned thanks to those three Trump

14:32

appointed judges. Trump himself had said he

14:34

was proud of that. This should

14:36

have been, given the way most

14:38

Americans view this issue, this should

14:40

have been an absolutely home run

14:43

point for Joe Biden.

14:45

Instead, Donald Trump was

14:47

able to spring an utterly

14:49

false narrative, claiming that

14:52

he had done something very popular by

14:54

overturning Roe. Let's just hear a bit

14:56

of that. You had Roe v. Wade

14:58

and everybody wanted to get it back

15:00

to the States, everybody, without exception. Democrats,

15:02

Republicans, liberals, conservatives, everybody wanted

15:04

it back, religious leaders. And

15:07

what I did is I put three great

15:09

Supreme Court justices on the court, and

15:11

they happened to vote in favor of

15:13

killing Roe v. Wade and moving it

15:16

back to the States. This is something

15:18

that everybody wanted. That is just so

15:20

obviously a lie. And yet, was

15:22

he able to get away with it, Donald Trump? Oh,

15:25

absolutely. And he was able to

15:27

get away with several other lies

15:29

within that one answer. He also

15:31

claimed that Democrats support killing babies

15:35

after they've been born. He

15:37

claims that Democrats universally

15:40

support unchecked,

15:42

unchallenged abortion through the ninth

15:44

month of pregnancy, which is

15:46

not true. And like

15:50

you said, this question should have been

15:52

a slam dunk for Joe Biden. If

15:54

you were locking

15:56

yourself up in Camp David for a

15:59

week of debate... preparation, you

16:01

should have a solid, tight,

16:03

ready to go answer on the abortion

16:05

question. Because this is going to be

16:08

a driving issue

16:10

for millions of voters in November. And

16:14

Biden, again,

16:16

stumbled over the answers, was

16:19

unable to clearly articulate the

16:21

idea that the decisions on

16:24

reproductive choices should be

16:26

between a woman and her doctor, not

16:28

between a woman and the government. And

16:31

that is me summarizing the

16:33

answer that he was attempting to

16:35

give. I supported Roe v. Wade,

16:37

which had three semesters. The first time

16:39

is between the woman and the doctor.

16:42

Second time is between the doctor and

16:45

an extreme situation. The third time is

16:47

between the doctor, I mean,

16:49

between the woman and the state. And

16:51

he stumbled over it multiple times. That

16:54

really just signals to me how

16:58

misguided and unprepared his

17:01

campaign staff was going into this debate.

17:03

They just did not put in the

17:05

very baseline work to ensure

17:07

he had prepared answers to expected

17:09

questions. Well, or maybe they did.

17:11

And just Biden himself couldn't deliver.

17:13

They've been training at Camp David,

17:15

the presidential retreat to Maryland for

17:18

days, well over a week. And just maybe

17:20

this guy couldn't be drilled. Interestingly, it could

17:22

be just something that happens that this, you

17:25

know, you were saying before, he's not as

17:27

used to being on TV as Trump. One

17:30

reporter has just tweeted, as we're

17:32

speaking, Olivia Nutsi tweeting, where the hell

17:34

was the Joe Biden, who is currently

17:36

speaking at the Atlanta watch party? Where

17:39

was he during the debate? He sounds and

17:41

seems fine now. So this is a reporter

17:43

saying that after the debate, away from the

17:45

cameras, Joe Biden is sounding and looking fine.

17:47

But on camera, he really didn't.

17:50

I mean, one area that people thought

17:52

he could come out really swinging would

17:55

be about Donald Trump's own record and

17:57

particularly the fact that he is. a

18:00

convicted felon. It was 36 minutes

18:02

that had gone by. And remember, as you

18:05

said, a lot of people only watched the

18:07

beginning of these debates. So probably, you know,

18:09

may well have switched off by then. But

18:12

Joe Biden did come in and he did have

18:14

this line. The only person in this stage is

18:16

a convicted felon is the man I'm looking at

18:18

right now. He then went on to

18:20

talk about the Manhattan case, the

18:22

Stormy Daniels case. He said, you know,

18:24

you had sex with a porn star

18:26

on the night while your

18:29

wife was pregnant. What are

18:31

you talking about? You have

18:33

the morals of an alley cat. What did you

18:35

think of those moments? Did they at least cut

18:37

through some of the sort of fog around Joe

18:39

Biden and land? You

18:42

have the morality of an alley cat

18:44

is a fantastic line. The

18:46

idea it's also just absurd that a

18:48

candidate for the presidency is standing on

18:50

stage and saying, by the way, I

18:53

never had sex with a porn star

18:55

and that not be a campaign

18:58

ending statement. But that that's the

19:00

world we're living in right now. The

19:03

initial performance in the debate, this

19:05

idea that Biden is

19:07

now speaking at an after event

19:09

and is completely eloquent. It

19:11

rings hollow with the American public

19:14

when that level of performance can't

19:16

be turned on when it most

19:18

matters. For a lot of viewers,

19:21

they tuned into this really with

19:24

the hope and the expectation that

19:27

all these, you know, insider baseball

19:29

statements, journalists get from

19:32

staffers and diplomats and people who've

19:34

met Joe Biden who say that,

19:36

oh, when you talk to him,

19:38

he's lucid, he's on top of

19:40

it, he's engaged, he knows his

19:42

stuff. They want to

19:44

see that. They want to see that

19:47

when Biden speaks to them, not only

19:50

was this a major fumble, but it

19:53

was a major fumble in one

19:55

of the first highly publicized opportunities

19:57

he had to do that. So

20:00

going forward, those

20:02

expectations are now even higher. You

20:05

have the morality of an alley cat is a great

20:07

line. But if Biden can't

20:09

translate that level of performance to

20:12

discussions of his policy, to

20:14

attacks on his opponent's record, it's

20:16

not going to do a lot

20:18

to swing undecided, independent

20:21

voters who are extremely hesitant

20:23

about both of these candidates to vote

20:26

his way. A lot of

20:28

independent voters I think were expecting to or

20:30

hoping perhaps even to go into this currently

20:32

undecided, but to be reassured that Biden is

20:34

vigorous enough to do another term and then

20:37

they would, because a lot of them

20:39

don't want to vote for Donald Trump, they would move

20:41

from Trump to Biden, but they did not get

20:43

that reassurance tonight. I just don't want to leave some

20:45

of these falsehoods unchecked. They weren't fact checked at the

20:48

time, so we better do it now. Donald

20:50

Trump was asked about January

20:52

the 6th, about his incitement

20:55

of the attack on the

20:57

Capitol back in 2021. He

21:00

gave an answer which drew in

21:02

the former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tried

21:04

to blame her. And Nancy

21:06

Pelosi, if you just watched the news

21:08

from two days ago, on tape to

21:10

her daughter, who is a documentary filmmaker,

21:12

they say, but she's saying, oh,

21:15

no, it's my responsibility. I was responsible

21:17

for this because I offered her 10,000

21:20

soldiers or National Guard. So

21:22

what about that? He was once again, spinning

21:25

a story that was not

21:27

true about his role, trying to

21:29

offset offload the blame onto

21:31

someone else. But your sense,

21:34

Nikki, did he just get away with it? The

21:36

claim he made about Pelosi is

21:38

based on a video that was released

21:40

earlier this month showing Pelosi on January

21:43

6th in the car with her daughter,

21:45

who's a documentary filmmaker, where

21:47

Pelosi is kind of wondering out loud

21:50

about why the National Guard wasn't

21:52

more prepared. She feels that she

21:54

had a responsibility, that, you

21:56

know, Capitol security, Capitol police wasn't

21:59

prepared. for the

22:01

events of January 6th and that resulted in

22:04

this riot. And Republicans have really been pushing

22:06

this video as evidence that it

22:08

was Pelosi's fault that the riot took place in the

22:10

first place. Pelosi approved a

22:12

request to seek support from the National

22:15

Guard. She pushed to get

22:17

National Guard troops into the DC area,

22:19

into the Capitol, even when

22:22

their activation was delayed. And

22:24

members of Congress do

22:26

not have the authority to activate the

22:29

District of Columbia National Guard. Only the

22:31

president or the defense secretary in the

22:33

US Army have the authority to do

22:35

that. So for Trump to say this

22:38

and not get any pushback really

22:40

from Biden either or the moderators,

22:43

it was just one example of a long

22:45

string of false claims that he made over

22:48

the course of this debate that

22:50

if viewers managed to,

22:53

you know, parse out what he was

22:55

saying, they now have

22:57

a false impression that was unchecked by

22:59

the moderators. Because the reality is that

23:01

after debates, and especially after a debate

23:04

like this one, I don't think a

23:06

lot of people are gonna stick around

23:08

to watch the post-game coverage, the post-debate

23:11

fact checks. They're gonna turn off their

23:13

TV and talk to the people

23:15

living in their house about how insane that just was.

23:18

Yeah, and all of that insanity in a

23:20

way encapsulated in one of the final exchanges,

23:23

a truly bizarre back and

23:25

forth about, of all things,

23:28

golf. Look, I'd be happy to have

23:30

a driving contest with him. I

23:32

got my handicap, which when I was vice

23:34

president, down to a six. And

23:38

by the way, I told you before, I'm happy to

23:40

play golf if you carry your own bag. Think

23:43

you can do it? That's the

23:45

biggest lie that- He's a six handicap of all.

23:48

I was eight handicap. Yeah. Eight.

23:51

Never. But I have, you know how many you've got. I've

23:53

seen you swing, I know you swing. Let's

23:55

not act like children. President Trump, we're going to- 21

23:58

run. Let's not act like children. like I

24:00

saw a post on Twitter that was like,

24:02

these two men are arguing about golf and

24:04

you want me to give them the nuclear

24:06

codes. You know, Trump claiming

24:10

that he aced some cognitive exams,

24:14

that he won two golf tournaments, especially

24:16

when we know that he has a

24:18

history of fudging his golf

24:21

scores, and that, you know, he could

24:23

beat Biden in a swinging

24:25

contest. It almost in

24:27

a sense feels like a mockery towards

24:30

the American public. What I

24:32

was amazed by by that is that Biden sank

24:34

down to that level. He started talking about his

24:36

handicap and his ability at golf, where all he

24:38

needed to say was, sure,

24:41

I'm old, but you're crazy, and you're a

24:43

law breaker, and you're a danger to the

24:45

United States. And instead he got into this

24:48

ridiculous match. People were tweeting out that

24:50

meme of, you know,

24:52

Homer Simpson's aged father getting

24:55

into an argument with another equally old man.

24:57

And you know, the headline, old men shouted

24:59

each other. That's what it sounded like, but

25:02

inevitably Biden came off worse. So

25:04

look, pulling together the whole thing,

25:06

it is Democrats, as we said,

25:09

senior ones, elected officials, it's

25:12

described as being in a state of

25:14

shock, feeling disoriented, and there will be

25:16

discussion, say many reporters now, of whether

25:18

Joe Biden should continue. Now, there are

25:20

two, we've talked about this on the

25:22

podcast, there are two camps on this.

25:25

Some who say, yeah, there is a post

25:27

scenario in which, you

25:29

know, maybe Jill Biden goes to Joe, her

25:31

husband, and says, enough's enough, and he

25:34

pulls out, and there's time before the

25:36

convention in August for them

25:38

to find another nominee. And there's another group

25:40

which say, quit dreaming, that's not how it

25:42

works, he won the primaries, he is on

25:44

the ballot, get over it. Where

25:47

are you on that? And do you think this

25:49

is gonna be a big running argument over the

25:51

coming days and weeks? There has

25:54

already been a lot of

25:56

chatter amongst, you know, behind the scenes

25:58

Democratic Party officials. operatives

26:01

about deep concerns regarding

26:04

what's going to happen at the convention, Biden's

26:06

ability to carry through this campaign. But I

26:09

think as much as these

26:11

discussions are taking place, we

26:14

are five months out from the election. It's

26:17

kind of the devil you know versus

26:19

the devil you don't. Do you continue

26:21

to run this campaign making the argument

26:24

that Trump is

26:26

a threat to democracy who

26:28

has authoritarian tendencies, a convicted

26:31

felon who's promised to institute

26:33

a slew of draconian policies

26:36

that will materially harm

26:38

Americans and hope that

26:40

that's enough to overcome

26:42

the concerns about Biden's age

26:44

and capabilities? Or do

26:46

you slot in a completely new candidate

26:49

and knock on wood that

26:52

voters are enthusiastic and willing

26:54

enough to not only change

26:56

their vote, but to actually make the effort

26:58

to turn out and support this

27:01

new candidate? I think it's I think

27:03

those are exactly the discussions that are taking place

27:05

behind the scenes right now. And

27:08

we're probably going to have to wait a few

27:10

more weeks to get real clarity on what the

27:12

Democratic Party plans to do about this. Yes, although

27:14

you say a few more weeks, there isn't

27:16

that much time, but I think you've absolutely

27:18

set it out right, which is that both

27:20

options are pretty awful is how many Democrats

27:22

will be thinking. Sticking with a

27:24

man who really did perform as badly

27:27

as Joe Biden did tonight is a

27:29

nightmare. But equally going into a nomination

27:31

process with unknowns, unknown quantities,

27:34

who knows how that shakes out, and the

27:36

possibility that the person who has to be

27:38

the nominee, maybe almost

27:40

under the rules, could be Kamala Harris,

27:43

who polls even worse than

27:45

Joe Biden and is somebody who Donald

27:47

Trump would relish taking

27:49

on because he thinks he could beat

27:52

her very easily. There are no easy

27:54

or good options here, but Democrats are

27:56

definitely talking about them as

27:58

you and I speak now. I

28:00

think we close, Nikki, by thinking this

28:02

was a very dramatic night, perhaps even

28:05

a game-changing night in the 2024

28:08

presidential election and from Joe

28:10

Biden and Democrats point of view not in

28:12

a good way. Not at all Nikki

28:16

McCann-Ramirez, politics reporter at Rolling Stone. Thanks

28:18

so much for talking to me for

28:21

Politics Weekly America. Thank you so much for

28:23

having me, Jonathan. And that

28:25

is all from me for this week. If you're

28:27

looking to delve a little deeper into the psychology

28:30

of extremism and how

28:32

politics is driving it these days,

28:34

do make sure to listen to

28:36

our sister podcast Science Weekly with

28:39

Madelaine Finley and Professor Richard Petty

28:41

of Ohio State University. It's fascinating.

28:43

And of course with less than

28:45

a week to go until election day here

28:48

in the UK, I do

28:50

suggest you keep listening to Politics

28:52

Weekly UK and Politics Weekly Westminster

28:54

as well as today in focus

28:57

Extra. Just search for all of

28:59

those wherever you get your podcasts.

29:01

But for now, it's goodbye. The

29:03

producer is Danielle Stephens, the executive

29:06

producer this week, Nicole Jackson. I'm

29:08

Jonathan Friedland. Thanks as always for

29:10

listening. This

29:14

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