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journey through Your History. Hello,

1:08

I'm Matt Chorley, and this is

1:10

Politics Without the Boy. It's coming

1:12

up on today's episode. The Times

1:14

Radio focus group returns in its

1:16

new weekly slot for the general

1:18

election. We'll be bringing you a

1:20

focus group every week between now

1:22

and polling day. Today, kicking off

1:24

with people who voted conservative in

1:26

2019, who now say they're backing

1:28

reform, is there anything that Rishi

1:30

Sunak can do to get them

1:32

back? I might give this one

1:34

a miss, Prime Minister. Before that,

1:36

in the columnists, Mamreen Rana and

1:38

Tom McTague on this brand

1:40

new phenomenon in politics, lying.

1:43

It's never happened before, and everyone's talking about it.

1:45

And if you like what you hear on the

1:47

podcast, don't forget you can join me for Politics

1:49

Without the Boy. It's live on Times Radio, on

1:51

your DAB radio, on your smart speaker, or download

1:54

the Times Radio app. It's Politics Without the Boy,

1:56

and it's weekdays from 10. Is

2:00

he looking

2:04

forward to all the football? All

2:06

week she's been showing me photographs of

2:08

her bus and now I've come to

2:10

see this fantastic bus. No this is

2:12

fun, you enjoy yourself. Yes

2:17

it's time to round up the nominations of the

2:19

Chorleys again. Loads of things happening

2:21

in this election campaign that may

2:23

well live long in the memory.

2:25

It's all going very well in

2:27

Wales. The

2:31

only person in Labour who can't win

2:33

a vote it seems Labour First Minister

2:35

Vaughan Gethling losing a vote of confidence

2:38

but insists... I am going

2:40

to carry on doing my duty. Which

2:42

will be really welcomed by this woman who has Vox

2:44

popped on Welsh TV. Do you think you want to

2:47

know where I think? I do. I

2:49

think he's on my pits. Things are going

2:51

better for Richard Holden, the Tory party

2:53

chairman, who now understands the rules of

2:55

musical chairs. What I would say is

2:58

that I didn't have a seat until

3:00

tonight because my seat had been abolished.

3:03

He's having hopped to a safer seat

3:05

instead. Channel 4 asked him the

3:08

classic Mrs Merton question. What

3:10

was it about the 20,000 strong

3:12

majority around here that first attracted

3:15

you to Balthard and Bouliricky? I

3:17

think the crucial thing is what

3:19

attracted the local association tonight to

3:21

adopt me unanimously. I

3:23

think that was because he was the only person on

3:25

the ballot paper. And

3:27

finally Ed Davie has pulled

3:29

off his most audacious stunt

3:31

yet. Yeah,

3:34

he's been fined for speeding after being caught doing

3:36

73 miles an hour in a 60 mile an

3:40

hour zone on the M1 motorway. Which

3:43

is almost as fast as you went down that

3:45

water slide. D

4:00

Matthew's. They're all not

4:02

available. But we've got a McTague instead. I was trying

4:04

to work out if Tom... I think we should get

4:06

Tom to change his name by D-pop. Could you become

4:09

Matthew McTague, Tom? Oh

4:12

that's got a nice ring to it. Isn't it

4:14

Matthew McTague? Yeah that's good. Tom McTague, please go

4:16

if you're unheard of here. I'm

4:18

trying to work out if Tom McTague. Thomas McTague.

4:20

You could make Matthew out of that couldn't you?

4:22

Anyway let's not get bogged down on that.

4:26

Let's start with the

4:28

one person in the Labour Party who can't win

4:30

a vote right now. And

4:33

that is the Labour First Minister, Vaughan

4:35

Gethwick, had a vote

4:37

of no confidence last night. It was

4:39

one of the most extraordinary debates in

4:41

a quarter of a century of Welsh

4:43

devolution. So they voted 29 in

4:45

favour of... well basically 29

4:50

Senate members voted that they got no

4:52

confidence in him. 27 voted against. Here

4:55

he is speaking after the vote. I

4:57

arrived, I attended, I took seriously the

4:59

points that were made, I

5:01

saw them for what they were and

5:04

I responded in the chamber

5:06

in a way that shows how much

5:09

I respect the Senate that I campaigned

5:11

for more than two decades ago.

5:13

I am going to

5:15

carry on doing my duty. I am

5:17

fiercely proud to be the First Minister

5:19

of Wales and to have

5:22

the opportunity to serve and lead my

5:24

country. So

5:26

just to fill us in on exactly how this came

5:28

about and what might happen now. Liz Perkins is a

5:30

journalist in Wales for us. Hi Liz. Hi

5:33

there, how are you? Very good, very good. Just

5:35

bring new readers start here. Remind

5:38

us how all this came about.

5:41

Well this has been rumbling on for quite some

5:43

time now. Von Goethein was

5:45

involved in a leadership contest to

5:47

become First Minister with Jeremy Miles

5:50

and essentially he took £200,000 for his campaign and

5:52

the donation came

5:57

from a firm

5:59

that said essentially was prosecuted

6:02

for environmental offenses.

6:05

And this has caused a major row, as

6:07

you can imagine, because clearly he thought

6:10

it was fine to take this money and he

6:12

has maintained that it is fine to

6:14

keep this money. And nobody

6:17

else agrees. So, I mean, you can imagine,

6:19

I mean, why would you take money from

6:21

somebody like that and a firm like that,

6:23

is anybody's guess, but he's not

6:26

returned the money. He's not apologized

6:28

during last night's debate for doing

6:30

so. And I think the

6:32

fact that he's maintained this line has

6:34

just caused such fury that even people

6:36

in his own party have turned against him as

6:38

well. And so now he's lost

6:41

the vote of confidence. That's, it's

6:43

just indicative, because he said he's going to carry

6:45

on regardless, having lost the confidence of the Senate.

6:48

It seems utterly amazing that,

6:50

you know, the rules of our parliament mean

6:52

that, you know, he doesn't have to stand

6:54

down. And when you think, usually

6:57

if there's a vote of no confidence, you

6:59

respect that. And you say, look, I'm

7:01

going to do the decent thing. I'm going to go. The

7:04

labor have very much said, oh, look, you

7:06

know, this is a Tory gimmick. It's because

7:08

the election's happening right now. But I think

7:11

what they're not really talking about is the

7:13

fact that Welsh people have lost confidence in

7:15

him too. So, you know, you

7:17

can't just ignore the Welsh public forever. I mean,

7:19

you are going to be held accountable in

7:22

an election. So, you know, what amazes

7:24

me is that he's just gone off

7:26

to Normandy to the D-Day commemorations, as

7:28

if none of this is happening. Right.

7:32

It is amazing. But then, you know, everything else is unfolded

7:34

in politics. Maybe it's not so

7:36

amazing. Tom, it's sort

7:38

of, but the thing that struck me is, well,

7:41

two things. If, for instance, Boris Johnson

7:43

had lost a vote of confidence in the House of

7:45

Commons, you could imagine Keir Starmer's

7:47

reaction to that if he hadn't resigned. And

7:50

I just wanted to actually, if you look at

7:52

what's happened in Westminster with the Conservatives, with the

7:55

SNP in Scotland, now the Labour Party in Wales,

7:57

it all means there was just a point where parties just run out

7:59

of... roads, whether it's sort of, I don't

8:02

know what it is, confidence, respectability,

8:05

competent leadership, whatever it is, that actually if

8:07

you're just in charge for too long, eventually

8:10

it all goes to pot. Yeah,

8:12

I think Tony Blair had a line about this, didn't he,

8:14

that it's like a sort

8:16

of almost like an ironed law of politics,

8:18

that the longer you're in, the more decisions

8:20

that you make that then annoy

8:23

some part of the coalition of people that

8:25

voted you in in the first place and

8:27

then it's like, you know, it's just inevitably

8:29

you get to a point, a tipping point

8:31

where that's just sort of too much. I

8:33

mean, I guess the weird thing about the

8:35

last, what, 14 years is actually

8:38

with the Tory party, the opposite has happened,

8:40

you know, in each election they've got more

8:42

and more popular, or

8:44

they've won more of the vote until

8:46

right at the end where it's suddenly collapsed.

8:49

So I don't know. I mean, it's

8:51

hard to, there's a volatility, I think,

8:53

about politics, democratic politics at the moment,

8:56

where it seems that it's just everything's

8:58

a little bit more fragile. Suddenly

9:01

things can change, you know, like the

9:03

SNP, like in Labour in

9:05

Wales. But then again, it looks like Labour are

9:07

going to just walk it in Wales when the

9:09

election comes in a few weeks time. I

9:12

suppose that's it. Yes, because normally you'd expect a

9:14

sort of slow erosion like you saw with Labour,

9:16

you know, the peak was 97 and gradually it

9:18

went down. But yeah, it seems

9:20

the Tory's done the opposite. They've sort of gone

9:22

up and up and up and now, according to

9:24

polls, there's a collapse coming. Manvi,

9:26

what do you make of it? There's sort of,

9:29

you know, we're talking a minute about lying, but

9:31

the sort of the holy the now approach currently

9:33

being taken by the Labour Party. If this is

9:35

any other party whose leader wasn't resigning after losing

9:37

a vote of confidence, Keir Starman would be going

9:39

mad. I know. I

9:41

mean, it seems mad, doesn't it? That statement

9:43

he just, you know, he gave after the

9:45

vote basically said, I came, I saw and

9:47

I ignored the entire debate. And I don't

9:50

need to listen. I mean, I

9:52

think it's it's it's mad, but

9:54

it sort of it highlights that complacency of

9:57

when you've been in power so long. You

9:59

know that there's not. nothing that can really stop you.

10:01

He's got an election coming, he doesn't see why he

10:03

needs to bother standing down. But I

10:06

think you're on to something because I know with the Tories

10:08

it seems to have sort of gone up

10:10

and I think that's just the weirdness of

10:12

Brexit and the Boris effect. But

10:15

with most parties, the longer they're around, the more they

10:17

sort of feel they can follow slightly

10:19

mad policies that are going to tear even their

10:21

own parties apart. We had

10:23

that with the SNP and gender recognition. We had that

10:25

in Wales with the 20 miles per hour, which is

10:27

what so much of this seems to come from. The

10:29

reason that the two

10:32

MPs didn't turn up to vote for him

10:35

and he lost the vote was because they're so

10:37

angry that he's unraveling that scheme. And

10:40

you end up with these sort of slightly bonkers policies they

10:42

wouldn't have if they felt there was any real competition, if

10:45

they felt the opposition

10:48

breathing down their neck. And you also tend to get

10:50

this sort of situation where you have a leader

10:53

and very little underneath. The moment that

10:55

the person who's been in power,

10:58

like with Nicholas Sturgeon, is gone, you suddenly

11:00

have this really unedifying sort of leadership

11:04

contest where you realise none of the other

11:06

candidates are quite up to it. And I

11:08

think that's what's happened in Wales. I'm born

11:10

guessing. I mean, it's amazing. Four weeks in,

11:12

he's almost at Liz trust levels here, he's

11:14

already facing a vote of no confidence. But

11:16

that's partly because there was, after Mark Drakeford,

11:18

there was sort of a sense of, oh,

11:20

now what? That's really

11:22

interesting. If someone's been there for a

11:24

long time, remove them

11:28

and the whole thing sort of falls apart. Liz,

11:30

before I let you go, what does

11:33

this tell us then about the state of the Labour

11:35

Party and the fact that there actually there isn't, as

11:37

Maureen was saying, an alternative on

11:39

the left, at least. If the

11:42

Conservatives did pose a threat to Labour in Wales,

11:44

it probably isn't at this precise moment. So

11:47

what happens now? He

11:50

just carries on, even if he went, the

11:52

Labour Party probably wouldn't pay any sort of

11:54

political price for it. It's a very weird

11:56

sort of situation. It really

11:58

is. I think the thing is... if you look

12:00

at how people are going to vote

12:02

in Wales, I mean only 7% will vote conservatives, which

12:07

is quite shocking really, and obviously something that

12:09

Rishi Srinag will clearly not want me to

12:11

talk about. But it's just,

12:14

the thing is, I mean we talk about 20 miles

12:16

per hour, we talk about the state of the NHS

12:18

in Wales, and I do think that that will have

12:20

a seasonal level of impact

12:22

because someone like Clyde, I

12:24

mean they pulled out of their agreement with

12:27

Labour, and clearly

12:30

they think they're in with a shot again in a few

12:32

more seats because of the mass that they've caught, Labour

12:34

have caused. So it's going to

12:37

be intriguing how they go forward with this

12:39

and how long Vaughan Gatton will survive because

12:41

you have to think he's gone through a

12:43

couple of scandals in the past and he's

12:45

a bit like a cat with nine lives,

12:47

I mean is he going to survive this

12:49

one for a while and just keep on

12:51

rumbling on? I don't know, it's just, it's

12:53

very curious because I don't think we've ever

12:55

been in a situation like this in 25

12:57

years, you know, it's just, but

13:00

I think, you know, when you've got an issue at some

13:03

point he will have to go because

13:05

you can't just keep on going and keep on going

13:07

and hoping for the best that it's going to be

13:09

okay because if your own party are

13:11

tearing themselves apart with this as well, and

13:13

you have to remember they did have

13:16

Jeremy Miles who did stand against him

13:18

and I think he would have done

13:20

a far more competent job and to

13:22

be honest we would not be having

13:24

this debate right now in this discussion

13:26

if Jeremy Miles had won because I

13:28

think... The Liz Trust, the Liz Trust, which you've

13:30

seen at parallels are really there, and actually the

13:32

thing was remember is that I think Keir Starmer

13:34

on the record boasted about removing

13:37

Richard Leonard as a Scottish Labour

13:39

leader to sort of, as

13:41

part of getting the party, you just wonder if it's some

13:43

point there is some intervention from Labour

13:45

HQ. Liz, always good to speak to you, thank you,

13:48

that's Liz Perkins, a journalist in Wales, keeping us up

13:50

to date on the situation there. Right, let's move away

13:52

from Wales now and talk about this new, shocking

13:55

new phenomenon in

13:57

politics that everyone is talking about. Someone might have

14:00

have told a lie. So

14:02

the Labour Party has been banding

14:04

around the word liar a lot

14:07

about Rishi Sunak. In

14:09

particular, the lie, well, this will come to

14:11

exactly what they are accusing of lying about

14:13

because it's not about the taxes. This was

14:15

though, Times Radio's political editor, Kate McCann, grabbed

14:18

the Labour leader for a quick chat

14:20

yesterday where

14:22

this is basically him making the point he's trying to

14:24

get across. Lies, lying,

14:27

deliberately lying, lies, lying,

14:29

lies. Are

14:31

you shocked by this manveen that someone might not

14:33

have been entirely truthful during an election campaign? I

14:36

mean, utterly unheard of in Westminster. I

14:38

mean, it's just, it's kind of sad

14:41

for Starman. He didn't think of saying that during

14:44

the live debate that might have helped him a

14:46

little more. It's a little belated. But

14:49

I mean, it's unusual, I think,

14:51

for Labour to talk, a Labour leader to talk so

14:54

much about lying because it became so synonymous with Blair

14:56

for a while. But, you know, I mean, obviously none

14:58

of this is true. None

15:00

of this is new. It's sort of, you

15:02

know, lying is just in the DNA of politics, isn't

15:04

it? And also, Tom, it's

15:06

important to point out the thing that

15:08

Labour are accusing Rishi Sunak of lying

15:10

about is not the fact that they've

15:12

got loads of policies that they haven't

15:15

fully costed. And if you add them all up, that would in

15:17

theory be £2,000 per family over

15:20

four years, because the Labour Party

15:22

have done exactly the same thing with some policies

15:24

which the Conservatives haven't actually committed to. Is

15:27

the lie about this being drawn up

15:29

by independent Treasury civil servants? But obviously,

15:31

if you're scrolling through social media, you

15:33

probably don't know that. Yeah,

15:37

and it's even more kind of

15:39

complicated and techy than that, isn't it?

15:41

Because it's that the Treasury officials have

15:43

done some work on some of that £2,000.

15:45

And so there is

15:47

something there, but we just don't, I don't yet

15:49

know exactly what it is that the Treasury have

15:52

costed and what that what costs they've put on

15:54

those Labour Party policies. And I

15:56

think the spectator of all places did a

15:59

sort of reverse it and said, well,

16:01

if you applied the same logic, how much would

16:03

that mean for the

16:05

Conservative Party's policies? And I think they

16:07

came up with 3,000 pounds. So I

16:10

don't know. I sort of think that a

16:12

lie is too strong a word for it, to

16:14

be honest, but I feel so much like we're back at this

16:16

350 million. Yes.

16:20

You know, that there is a kind of truth in

16:22

there, but it's evidently

16:25

been exaggerated for effect. And

16:28

that happens all the time. I mean,

16:30

that is, that is kind of the nature

16:32

of, of politics. You make your

16:34

point. And there isn't that much difference between the

16:36

two parties. That's the other thing, isn't it? They're

16:39

getting so heads up with each other and

16:41

saying that these tiny, tiny differences are,

16:44

you know, enormous dividing lines between, between them

16:46

when they're not, they, they, they're both going

16:48

to have to put up taxes after the

16:50

election. That's what everybody else knows. I

16:53

think that's probably why they're, they're getting so worked

16:55

up about it, because the difference is so marginal

16:57

between them. They need something as a dividing line.

17:00

And, you know, to be fair with them, to them, the

17:03

reason they're calling it a lie, I suppose,

17:05

is because straight after the debate, you did

17:07

have a spate of ministers coming out saying

17:09

this is absolutely tested by the treasury, which

17:11

it clearly wasn't, was incredibly silly of them

17:13

to have come out and said that. And

17:16

it's very unusual to have a letter from the

17:18

treasury denying that. But, you know,

17:20

again, this is so run of the mill for, for

17:22

elections. It, you know, none of

17:25

this is unusual. But it's so interesting the

17:27

point you make there, Mavry, that when they are so

17:29

similar, in lots of ways,

17:31

and they haven't set out, you know, they've ruled

17:33

out tax rises, they've ruled out spending cuts, how

17:35

you make the figures add up as a separate

17:37

thing. So instead, both parts, both main parties are

17:40

playing exactly the same game, taking something

17:42

that someone sort of said once.

17:44

So the Labour Party note with Jeremy Hunt,

17:46

he said he'd like to reach a point

17:48

where we didn't have national insurance. So they've

17:50

worked out what that would cost to abolish.

17:52

They've taken some off the record briefings, they'd

17:54

like to get rid of inheritance tax, and

17:56

they've added that one up as well. And so because

17:59

they are so similar actually on actual

18:01

policy, both sides are sort of latching

18:03

on made-up policies to try and sort

18:05

of make them all

18:07

sound more interesting. It's such a weird, you know,

18:09

it's classic lies, damn lies and statistics,

18:11

you know, everyone's changing the the time frame for when

18:14

they're judging this, you know, is it £2,000 immediately?

18:16

Is it £2,000 over four years? You

18:19

know, it turns out this is

18:21

the sort of election where everything is in

18:23

the detail and nobody really loves talking about

18:25

detail, so there's an awful lot of space

18:27

for people to be able to come up

18:29

with an attention-grabbing headline, which isn't quite true.

18:32

Tom, I suppose the thing, the reason

18:35

this is all happening is because we're in this

18:37

weird period of an election

18:39

campaign which Viciousonak

18:42

called, he was the only one who had any, just appeared to

18:44

have any idea it was coming, but

18:46

hasn't published his manifesto. We think we might

18:48

start getting some manifestos next week and that

18:50

might flesh things out a bit, but it's

18:52

sort of, it's of

18:55

his own making, in a way, that we've

18:57

had almost two weeks now of a

18:59

general election campaign without any policies. Well,

19:03

we've had a few policies, haven't we, from

19:05

the Tory party that have just suddenly come

19:08

out of nowhere on national

19:10

service. What was it today?

19:12

Tougher prison sentences, but they're

19:15

just so absurd that they can't

19:17

cut through because they just fall

19:19

at that first hurdle of, well,

19:21

you've had 14 years, why haven't you

19:23

done this? I think that is such

19:25

a difficult question for the Tory

19:28

party to respond to. And then when

19:30

they get to things that you kind

19:32

of believe, I guess, that they want

19:34

to do, like have tougher prison sentences

19:36

or reduce immigration, you say, but

19:39

immigration is its highest level

19:41

ever. And you are

19:43

having to let prisoners out of prison

19:45

because you don't have enough space and

19:47

asking the police not to arrest so

19:49

many people. You know, it

19:52

just is just so impossible, I think, for

19:54

the Tories, that I find

19:56

it difficult to see how that they can

19:58

recover from this. I think the one

20:01

thing from the debate which worked

20:03

at least was that

20:05

what they were going at Kiestama

20:07

on was effectively his

20:09

green plan and that

20:11

is where there is a kind of

20:14

small difference between the two and Sunak

20:16

has tried to make

20:18

hay with this over the last few years but again

20:21

not really it's only very

20:23

marginal isn't it it's about delaying the

20:25

time scale at which you do this

20:27

changeover. So I again

20:30

you think it would play into

20:32

reforms hands as well because they

20:34

have a clearer policy more easy

20:36

to understand and presumably will land

20:38

with the kind of people that

20:41

Sunak is attempting to

20:43

secure for his home his own coalition. Yeah

20:46

I mean I know we don't have long I just

20:49

wanted to say on that you know only sort of

20:51

this sudden spate of policies that weren't

20:53

even dreamt of over the 14 years when

20:55

the Tories have been in power. The one

20:57

this morning I just feel quite strongly about

20:59

it because I went and interviewed the mother

21:01

of one of the women

21:03

who was murdered in her own home and

21:05

the murderer sort of got a much

21:08

shorter sentence than anybody else. She's been

21:10

campaigning for this for years she's seen

21:12

this revolving door of justice secretaries are

21:14

under the Conservative Party. Nobody

21:17

has made any great sort of effort certainly

21:19

not recently to try and put this into

21:21

law. For those you know for those campaigners

21:23

it's been the most infuriating process and then

21:26

suddenly you know two minutes

21:28

before an election they they they remember this

21:30

might be a half decent policy. It

21:32

just seems very cynical. There

21:37

was a line in the Times story which said something like

21:39

you know the Conservative government will do this but

21:41

Conservative sources also said they hoped an incoming Labour

21:43

government might do it because you just sort of

21:45

think that's a bit rich there after being in

21:47

government for 14 years. Lovely

21:49

to speak to you. Manvi Vano of course host of

21:51

the Story podcast which you can listen to wherever you

21:53

get your podcasts and Tom McTague please go to it

21:55

Unheard who's now got not one but two podcasts on

21:58

you. Tom? Well,

22:00

it's a special mini series. So please go

22:02

and give it a try. Very good. I

22:05

love it. You can never have too

22:07

many podcasts. Tom McTague from Unheard and Mamrie Rana from

22:09

The Story Podcast, which of course you can listen to

22:11

wherever you're listening to this. Up next is The Focus

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journey through Your History. The

24:01

big thing. Every

24:04

month here on Times Radio

24:06

we convene a focus group

24:08

of voters to ask

24:10

them to sum up in their own

24:13

words how the government is getting on

24:15

and see what matters to real people

24:17

outside the Westminster bubble. And

24:19

every month listeners get in touch to

24:22

complain that they're all ignorant. So

24:24

stand by. For the election campaign

24:26

we're actually going to be bringing you a focus group

24:28

every Thursday. So for the next four weeks in the

24:30

run up to polling day we

24:32

will bring you a different

24:35

focus group. James Johnson from JL Partners is

24:37

live in the studio. How are you James?

24:39

I'm very good Matt so I'm being late.

24:41

Nobody knew you were late. Well

24:44

I've still got to apologize. I've padded so

24:46

professionally that nobody noticed. I think they want

24:48

that transparency. But honesty in politics is very

24:50

important. Poor work. Let's

24:53

kick off then with the traditional disclaimer

24:55

that people on Twitter will come claim

24:57

we never give. What is

24:59

a focus group and what is it not? A

25:01

focus group is a collection of voters who we're

25:03

talking to directly either over the phone or Zoom

25:06

in person. It is not intended to

25:08

be representative and I think that's rule number one. We

25:10

are not saying that everybody we're speaking to today represents

25:13

this group. That would be impossible. It's only about eight

25:15

people. But what it does

25:17

allow you to do unlike a poll is dig

25:19

a little bit deeper. Get people's explanations. Get people's

25:21

sense of why they're saying what they think. And

25:23

it really allows you to sort of especially in

25:26

an election campaign work out are people really going

25:28

to do what they say. How close

25:30

are they to the party they say they're going to vote

25:32

for in the polls. How sure are they of their vote.

25:35

Very good. So who are

25:37

we hearing from today? We

25:40

are talking to people who voted conservative in 2019

25:42

and now intend

25:44

to vote Reform UK. So in our weekly

25:46

Times Radio focus groups we talk in some

25:48

of the key groups. This is one of

25:51

them for the election. They're in three seats

25:53

these guys. Derby North, Gedling and

25:55

Ashfield. And that last one obviously is

25:57

where Lee Anderson is standing for Reform.

25:59

So. very important seat. And

26:04

you would expect, you would at least

26:06

hope, the conservative pollsters

26:09

are carrying out exactly focused groups

26:11

like this because on a voting

26:13

intention poll these people are in

26:15

the reform column and

26:17

you need to ask them in person what

26:19

could we do to bring you back? Exactly

26:21

right, so the conservatives are desperately searching now

26:23

for what we call in politics the squeeze

26:25

message. So they will be asking them what

26:27

your biggest hesitation is about reform, what

26:30

are some messages as well as we'll hear we

26:32

did that last night and well I won't spoil

26:34

it. Okay so

26:36

this, good morning Prime

26:38

Minister, maybe he's catching up on the

26:40

podcast. Here is

26:43

the focus group of people who voted conservative in

26:45

2019 now say they're voting reform, is there anything

26:47

that which you soon that can do to get

26:49

them back? Kicking off James

26:52

asked them what news stories they might

26:54

have noticed, this is recorded last night

26:56

but you do this every time

26:58

and we often don't use it because it's just sort

27:00

of a collection of news stories but particularly pertinent so

27:03

this is what this group of reform voters, the

27:05

news stories that got cut through. The main

27:07

thing was the milkshake incident at

27:10

the Nigel Farage, that

27:14

kind of took over a lot of things

27:16

in it so. The Nigel Farage situation with

27:18

the milkshake, the last swildon.

27:21

The Nigel Farage incident is quite prominent at

27:23

the minute in terms of how that's been

27:25

looking in the media. I know Kerm and

27:29

Sounak, please let him know, had

27:31

a discussion of the night. I heard

27:34

that they had a debate the other day,

27:36

I haven't had a chance to watch it

27:38

but I heard that from some people Rishisounak

27:40

come across a bit better than people who

27:42

are expecting to. So all the party political

27:44

broadcasting the night for the Labour Party all

27:46

about change and

27:48

again down to the Rishisounak and

27:51

the other man, Kistama, last

27:53

night the debate they had but again

27:55

I haven't watched it or voted. Yeah I watched the

27:57

debate last night and on the news just the two

28:01

2000 pound taxing that Rishi Sunakabse and

28:03

that came up, Kia Stoma was going

28:05

to put in the play. Really,

28:08

I mean, maybe not a surprise given that, you

28:10

know, there's a general election on and it's dominated

28:12

the news, but lots of political, because they don't

28:14

know when they sign up to the group. If

28:17

I should say that we had, there was a

28:19

bit of a debate on social media early this

28:22

week or last week about focus groups and their

28:24

merits and how they're all much more politically engaged

28:26

than the normal people. Actually,

28:28

the complaint we normally have about our focus

28:30

groups is they're not politically engaged enough. But

28:32

there you had, Nigel Farage being milkshaked, the

28:35

TV debate, the 2000 pound, the row over

28:37

Labour's 2000 pound tax rise. You

28:40

know, even people, people have tuned into politics who may

28:42

not normally be. Yeah, absolutely. And they didn't all know

28:44

each of those things. So you know, we dug into

28:46

it, you know, only one person had about 2000 pounds,

28:48

only one person had

28:51

actually watched the debate. So, you know, it

28:53

was it was a mix of different levels

28:55

of insight, but everybody had picked up something

28:57

and that's key in election campaign, which campaigns

28:59

can get their stories latched onto the mind

29:01

like that. And

29:04

clearly, you know, some are having more success than others. OK,

29:06

let's start into it. Obviously, the biggest, arguably the

29:08

biggest political event of the week hasn't

29:10

wasn't the TV debate. It was the return

29:13

of Nigel Farage as the leader of Perform

29:15

UK and standing as a candidate. So you

29:17

asked this group, conservative voters now voting reform

29:19

for their thoughts on Nigel Farage. I'd

29:22

say I've got positive thoughts about him. He

29:24

seems to be quite vocal. He seems to

29:26

have no ideas. Perhaps perhaps

29:28

he's not a globalist. I hope not.

29:31

And I just think he's to be perfectly honest.

29:33

I think he's an idiot with a massive voice

29:36

and a massive following, but he's an idiot.

29:38

I would say I would agree that he's very

29:40

vocal and seems quite

29:42

confident. But I

29:45

don't know whether I'm quite convinced like the rest of

29:47

them. I don't think he's just the

29:49

same. I think quite outspoken and maybe

29:51

a bit arrogant. Donald Trump

29:53

of the UK, positive and

29:56

refreshing. Character

29:58

opinionated. both

30:01

call straight to the point.

30:03

Opinionated, likable to some,

30:06

not all, and refreshing.

30:08

I think he's confident in everything that

30:10

he's got to say, but I'm not

30:13

sure that I'm confident that

30:15

he's reliable as he says. Now

30:18

this is fascinating James, but I was listening back

30:20

to this this morning. I just thought, you

30:24

thought the whole point of Nigel Farage was

30:26

to come back and bolster support for reform.

30:28

And these people are really voting reform and they're not,

30:31

you know, he's an idiot, he's basically

30:34

goby, he's the same as everyone else, he's arrogant.

30:36

I mean a few people there sort of like

30:38

him, but they're a little bit at best Marmite-y

30:40

about it. Yeah, it's not a slam dunk positive.

30:43

It is worth saying that in the

30:45

polls, Nigel Farage has a plus 79

30:47

approval rating with reform voters overall. It

30:49

could be that he's conservative to reform

30:51

switches, maybe take a little less positive

30:53

view. I think there's three things going

30:55

on here, Matt. One is that these

30:57

are people, they're voting reform because they

30:59

are sick of politicians. Their trust in

31:01

politicians is so, so low, their trust in

31:03

the process is so, so low. It's so low

31:05

that even some of that concern is actually seeping

31:07

through to Nigel Farage. Is he really

31:10

who he says he is? Is he really

31:12

going to do what he says? So that's

31:14

number one. Number two

31:16

is that even those who didn't like him,

31:18

they spoke about him being vocal, confident, mouthy.

31:21

Those are positives because again, this group

31:24

of people are often very, very keen

31:26

for a bit of strength in politics.

31:28

They feel like Sunak, Stomber, other politicians

31:30

haven't had any backbone. And they really

31:32

like that about Nigel Farage, even if it's not a sort

31:34

of massive positive off the top of the tip of their

31:36

tongue. Final thing, Matt, I got a strong

31:38

sense watching this group, doing this

31:40

group last night, that even if

31:43

they've got Marmite views of Nigel Farage, they would not

31:45

be so, they would not be reform voters, or at

31:47

least they would not be locked into reform in the

31:49

way they are if he hadn't have come back on

31:51

Monday. That's really interesting. And I suppose that's the point,

31:53

isn't it? And that's where voting

31:56

intention doesn't quite capture, you know,

31:58

sentiment. if they were only

32:01

just a reform voter before, they might now

32:03

be a definite one. And that's the calculation

32:05

they will be making. Nigel Farage has put

32:07

reform back on the map for these voters

32:09

and he's kept it on the map. And

32:12

that's, you know, the timing's really interesting.

32:14

So let's go back to this idea then

32:17

of Nigel Farage being the Donald Trump of

32:19

the UK. And you asked

32:21

the group if they thought that was a good

32:23

thing. Yeah, I wish it was a UK version

32:25

of Trump. I genuinely do. I love Trump. He's

32:28

done bad things, but genuinely speaking, he's an

32:30

honest broker and he can't be bought. I

32:33

think you've had America like a business rather

32:36

than, you know, they don't

32:39

seem to look at the country. It

32:41

is like running a big business more than,

32:44

you know, looking after yourself. And that's what

32:46

our politicians seem to do. I'm

32:48

the opposite. I don't like Trump at all.

32:51

I think a

32:53

horrible man. And also he's the type

32:55

of guy that is, it's

32:59

his opinion or it's wrong. Yeah, I think if

33:01

we had Trump at the time that Brexit was being negotiated,

33:04

we'd have had a far better deal. We would have actually

33:06

left. I don't think it took

33:08

any crap. Fascinating,

33:10

though. I mean, I

33:13

can feel the fury of some listeners. Do

33:15

get in touch. O triple three, double oh

33:17

three, two, three, five, three. We've

33:19

only had one so far. Harry's saying, where do you find these

33:21

people? He says he's just getting his monthly message. How

33:24

do we find these people, James? Independent process.

33:26

We ask people how they voted in 2019,

33:29

whether they're going to vote for reform, the selected on that

33:31

basis. They don't know what they're going to be asked

33:33

about. Look, this is

33:35

not the view of the population

33:37

as well. But it is

33:39

the view we know from polling

33:42

and also from work like this. We

33:44

know that this is something that is

33:46

more commonly shared amongst reform voters. And

33:48

for them, Trump equals

33:50

strength. And they do not

33:52

feel that any politician is strong or stands

33:55

by their convictions or gets things done. It's

33:57

interesting. They said, oh, Trump's not the

33:59

biggest gentleman. but he does get things done. It's

34:01

not gentlemen they want, it's strong man. And it's reminded that

34:03

some voters don't, even though they might say, don't

34:08

agree with them on everything, but he gets stuff done, you know, and

34:10

that has some appeal. Right,

34:12

so that's Nigel Farage then. This

34:15

is the big question. What do people who

34:17

voted conservative in 2019 now say they're going

34:19

to vote reform, what do they think about

34:21

Wishesu? Yeah, interesting. I've

34:23

always the time he looks after

34:25

the higher class people with the higher class

34:27

wages in this country. Untrustworthy.

34:30

Untrustworthy and embarrassing really. He's had the

34:33

opportunity to show but he's not, he's

34:35

just a powerless puppet, I think so.

34:38

Wears nice suits, hasn't

34:40

achieved an awful lot. Wasted space. Unreliable.

34:44

He's not relatable

34:46

either. Wow.

34:50

It's not great, is it? So if,

34:53

I mean, what comes in

34:55

a minute, like what can

34:57

he do about it? But,

34:59

I mean, the fact that they were all saying the same

35:01

thing, untrustworthy, that thing has just landed. Maybe it's because Nigel

35:04

Farage keeps saying it, you can't trust him. But

35:06

it doesn't feel like a group willing to

35:09

be brought back into the fold by by

35:11

Wishesu. No, I think Wishesu has, you

35:13

know, he's not got a values connection with these voters.

35:16

And he's also not got a connection on competence or

35:18

the ability to get things done. People refer to the

35:20

five promises. They basically feel like Wishesu set out a

35:22

store for what he was going to do and didn't

35:24

deliver. And then all of those other

35:26

concerns about his wealth, his values, his background

35:29

have come to the fore. Instead,

35:34

very, very difficult because Wishesu Sunak is

35:36

the person, the conservative campaign, their only

35:38

choice really, to win these voters back.

35:42

Right. So that's the view of

35:44

Wishesu Sunak. For the sake of

35:46

completeness, before we take a break, let's

35:48

find out now what they thought about Keir

35:50

Starmer. The bigger ****, yeah. After watching

35:53

the debate, especially, he doesn't have a clue, doesn't

35:55

have a plan. I don't like him

35:57

as a person. And from

36:00

what I've heard is he hasn't got a plan.

36:03

So copycat politician, he just seems to jump

36:05

on the back of everybody else's bandwagon. I

36:07

don't trust that number two psyche of a

36:10

woman that sits next to him on the

36:12

bench who's a den of her own name.

36:14

Slakey. No

36:18

real leadership, I would say. It just sort of seems

36:20

like he's tripped and fell into

36:22

the position he's in. He's just a poor

36:25

stop-boy, essentially. That's it. He

36:27

seems like a frightened little boy in the headlights. The

36:29

apprenticeship that made the deal, essentially, just

36:32

kind of got promoted way too soon, kind of thing.

36:34

He just looks right. He

36:37

tripped and fell into the position. I'm

36:39

sure Keir Starmer feels it was slightly

36:42

harder than that. Yes, you don't get much

36:45

reward to you from the voters. And

36:47

this is really important when it comes to

36:49

what we'll cover later, which is, you know,

36:51

can they be squeezed? Because these voters do

36:54

not like Sunak, but they also don't like

36:56

Starmer. And they're more vociferous in their criticism

36:58

of Starmer than they are, than they are

37:00

Sunak. And the big question now

37:02

is, can the Conservatives then say, vote

37:04

reform and you get Starmer? Oh,

37:07

they're all coming in now. Tom says, lo,

37:09

in this latest edition of the weekly wallop,

37:11

Margaret says, I know they're randomly

37:13

chosen, but they're all randomly stupid. Chris

37:16

says, Voxpop, dear God. Right,

37:18

let's find out now. We're

37:20

looking for, is

37:23

there any way the Conservatives can squeeze this,

37:25

get the reform voters back? So first of

37:27

all, James asked them how they're

37:29

planning to vote and why. I'm

37:33

thinking reform, UK,

37:36

something new, something different. Nothing's

37:38

changed under both parties.

37:41

Change is good as a rest, although

37:43

that sounds flippant, but I think it's

37:46

worth taking a chance, I guess. I

37:48

will be voting for Nigel Farage because

37:51

I want something different. Yeah,

37:54

I'm leaning towards reform just because I'm

37:56

just bobbed with the other two. It's reform,

37:58

I can't see the point of... voting for

38:00

two, I'll bet two chiefs the same, or,

38:02

preferably honest. I've just

38:05

given up on conservatives don't think

38:07

Labour are confident in leading with

38:09

anything, so hopefully as

38:11

everyone else says a change in a breath

38:13

of fresh air would do the country good.

38:17

They're just not convinced by the two main parts. This

38:19

is like the ultimate protest vote, isn't it, James? Yeah,

38:21

I mean it's a sort of howl

38:24

of anguish at what they see as a completely,

38:26

broken system over the last couple of decades.

38:29

They feel that conservatives have failed in government,

38:31

they feel that they haven't achieved what they

38:33

wanted them to achieve, and they don't feel

38:35

that Labour are any better. So for them,

38:37

when we talk about this being a change

38:39

election, that often has Keir Starmer's face attached

38:41

to it. For them, that's firmly got Nigel

38:43

Farage's face attached to it. They think it's

38:45

not a change. Okay, so this is the

38:47

big question. Is there anything

38:49

the Tories could do to win

38:52

them back? Not really. No.

38:54

Bring Boris Johnson back. Yeah,

38:57

Boris was a good guy. I think

38:59

it's too late in the day, isn't

39:01

it? They can make big tax cuts,

39:03

do whatever they promise the earth. It's

39:05

a bit too late in the day

39:07

now. The party's had the chance, we'll

39:09

just need somebody new. They've had their

39:11

chance, regardless of who's at the wheel.

39:13

I'm talking. Bring

39:16

back Boris. Bring back

39:18

Boris. I'll go down well with our listeners. Indeed.

39:20

Look, two people said that, the rest said we're

39:23

done. And actually, when we revisited again, we said,

39:25

are there any conservative politicians that would get you

39:27

back? Nobody said anyone. My

39:30

general sense here was that this

39:32

is, if you're Isaac DeVito, if you're the

39:35

conservative campaign, Rishi Sunak, this

39:37

is the last thing you want to hear,

39:39

because they're not even at this stage, at

39:41

least they're telling us they're not even entertaining

39:43

the idea of Beringaert to the conservatives. They

39:45

are, quote, done with them. And that, to

39:48

me, was the shock moment of this focus

39:50

group, because we know in some

39:52

of the numbers that there are some

39:54

reform voters who would consider voting conservative. Since

39:57

Farage came back, I was even then... I

39:59

was expecting a bit of openness. Yeah, yeah.

40:02

But then it's interesting, isn't it? Because what

40:05

does he then do, Rishi Sunak

40:07

and I, at Lovedo? Because if they're getting these same measures,

40:09

they will be. But like, well, do all these focus groups,

40:11

is there anything? If somebody comes up with a bright idea

40:13

in a focus group, we'll go with it. Should

40:16

they completely turn that back, ignore Nigel

40:18

Farage, and focus on trying to

40:20

get labor switches back? There aren't as many of them,

40:22

if you look at the polls. But there are still

40:24

don't-knows, and people have gone Tory to Labour, and actually

40:26

may be focusing on them with a more centrist argument

40:29

might be better. I think it's difficult. I think the

40:31

horse has bolted on the Tory to Labour switches. When

40:33

we look at the polling, they are the most decided,

40:36

even more so than these reform voters and people

40:39

who are conservatives who don't know, obviously. So

40:41

I think they need to carry on trying

40:43

to appeal to these groups. I think they

40:45

probably don't do it by attacking to the

40:47

right anymore, because anything that they

40:49

say, Nigel Farage can one-up it. You

40:52

can't out-fraud you, Arsh. But they do need to return

40:54

to those core messages, the core strengths on the economy,

40:56

fear of labor. At the moment, these

40:58

reform voters we spoke to last night, they

41:00

think that a conservative government would be effectively

41:02

the same as a big labor majority government

41:05

on immigration, on woke issues, on everything else.

41:07

So in fact, you asked about that, because

41:09

they're not interested in the Labour Party either.

41:11

But you put the argument to them, which

41:14

conservative senior conservatives have been making all week, that

41:16

a vote for reform makes it more likely that

41:18

labor get even, because conservative MPs will lose their

41:20

seat. Here's how they reacted to

41:22

that argument. There's not a lot of words

41:24

coming out with any. Yeah, it's just that

41:26

there's no substance to it. It's just

41:29

a bit of scared, essentially. It's supposed

41:31

to be democracy, whatever we want. Nobody will

41:33

know until that final count is done

41:36

whether the independents have got in, whether

41:38

the Green Fathers have got in, whether

41:40

reforms got in. If they could take

41:42

all the seats, maybe they could form

41:44

a government between them. Perhaps

41:46

they're voting systems wrong for post-representation. Probably

41:48

need that. It's just applying it

41:50

to try and swing people who are set on a

41:52

fence to make sure one way or the other, but

41:54

I'll go with who I want to in the first

41:56

place, whether it's reform or the

41:58

Green Party or someone like that. or options

42:00

anyway. So if it takes a

42:03

copy it has to vote for them, so be it. I

42:05

think it's a risk that I'm willing to take. I

42:08

mean this is so interesting. When you think actually

42:10

there's a squeeze message, the Conservatives in 2015 squeezed

42:13

the Lib Dems out by saying a

42:16

vote for anyone other than Conservatives puts Ed

42:18

Miliband and Nicola Sturgeon in charge, or Alex Salmon,

42:21

I can't remember which which election it was, and

42:24

that's just not working here. You know sometimes those

42:26

messages do work, you can see why they're doing

42:28

it. It's having no impact. Yeah, they're getting, they

42:30

get offended by it. Very, very difficult listening if

42:32

you're the Conservative Party trying to work out the

42:34

squeeze. Look, people say, oh it's a ploy, of

42:36

course voters might say that and then still listen

42:39

to it anyway, but the fundamental

42:41

truth is, is that as I said earlier, they think

42:43

that a big Labour majority government is the same as

42:45

a Tory government. They just don't think the Tories are

42:47

delivered. So they go, well why not then? And

42:50

also that was another interesting thing, that appetite for

42:52

change, even though they really don't like Starma, the

42:54

idea of Starma wasn't as horrifying as say the

42:56

idea of Corbyn might have been. It was sort

42:58

of seen as like, well that's almost just another

43:01

throw of the dice, that you know, at least

43:03

it will be something different, it'll be rubbish, but

43:05

let's at least give it a go. So they're

43:07

not even, you know, they're not even really incentivised

43:09

by fear in the way that perhaps different servers

43:11

wish they were. I suppose that's so interesting, Starma

43:13

has removed the no drama, Starma has removed the

43:15

fear of Labour, and they're based

43:17

with the view, they're the same, you

43:20

know, but that lot of mucked it up, so I'll let the other go. We

43:23

didn't get this explicitly in the group, but I suspect also there

43:25

is a sense of Labour are going to win anyway. So

43:28

at least I get to

43:30

be pure and vote for the guy or the

43:32

party that I particularly want to. So

43:35

you've actually even asked them then to, you

43:37

know, throw even further into their

43:39

future imagination, could they imagine what the

43:42

country would look like if Nigel Farage

43:44

was Prime Minister in number 10? Hopefully

43:46

we've got a better economy. Yeah,

43:49

free of Europe. And we're making our own

43:52

products. Are we trumping the White House? In

43:54

investments where the need is. Possibly more stability.

43:56

At least we'll have a path that will

43:58

know where we're going on. kind of thing.

44:01

You have to admit he is more of

44:03

a relatable human to the average person, so

44:05

the government might feel connected to the average

44:07

person, whereas at the moment it just feels

44:10

like they're so far away. You know, there

44:12

may be things that they don't get right,

44:14

but let's hope that it's you

44:17

know going in the right direction.

44:19

It's not going to be a fix overnight,

44:22

it's going to be a long-term fix that we're

44:24

going to, that we need, the whole country needs

44:26

just a long-term fix. It

44:29

is extraordinary when you look at Nigel Farage's CV

44:31

that his position is the relatable man of the

44:33

people, the privately educated former trader, career politician. Well,

44:35

that's where, and to be fair, that's where the

44:37

jungle helped him, you know, going and doing under

44:39

celebrity, because they used to always knew he was

44:41

frank and strong, but they didn't necessarily know he

44:43

was relatable, and they quite liked him there. Someone

44:45

in a focus group before referenced

44:47

him after that jungle experience as

44:49

the friendly sergeant major, and

44:51

the friendly sergeant major seems to be,

44:54

you know, rallying his troops to him

44:56

here. It's interesting that, and I remember

44:58

thinking this about David Cameron against Ed

45:00

Miliband. David Cameron

45:02

is like a posh bloke that you've met.

45:05

Lots of people have met a posh bloke. Ed

45:07

Miliband they struggled with because he hadn't really met

45:09

the son of a North London lefty intellectual who

45:11

played Lego and followed baseball, not

45:13

Lego, Rubik's cubes. Do you know what I mean? There

45:15

was something, you know, if you're going to latch onto

45:18

a type, even if you don't like them, you can

45:20

think I know who that person is. I've met that

45:22

person at a parents evening or down the pub or

45:24

on the terraces or whatever it is. You can latch

45:26

on to that type. Right, let's round

45:29

this off then. Let's try and be helpful

45:31

to Rishi Sunak. These are

45:33

people who voted conservative in 2019 in Derby

45:36

North, Gedling and Asheville. They

45:39

are saying they're going to vote reform, but

45:42

James, just to be helpful, asked them if they could

45:44

send a message to Rishi Sunak. What

45:46

would they like to say? So, Prime Minister, if you're listening, you're

45:48

catching up on the podcast. This is

45:50

what these reform voters wanted to say to you

45:53

in a message. Back you

45:55

suitcase. Then duck. We'll out

45:57

swear and see you later.

46:00

even know just yeah R of Y

46:02

I guess R of Y. Enjoy your

46:04

holiday? Just get yourself off because students

46:06

are better. Nice try. Bye.

46:08

Could have done better. Bye. Simple.

46:11

There's no more to it. Is that with them? That

46:16

mum is one of the worst clips we've

46:18

had. Yes I do by the way

46:20

say to them just before you

46:23

know don't try and be productive this is a

46:25

message you could actually get in front of the

46:27

PM. You're always sort of trying to get like

46:29

you know I don't know scrap road tax or

46:31

you know build a hospital you know something actually

46:34

you know productive.

46:36

But Matt two things about this and reflecting on

46:38

the group as a whole I think you know

46:40

number one reform voters clearly do exist. A lot

46:42

of people are saying politicians are saying you know

46:44

I'm not seeing them on the doorstep and well

46:47

we found them and we don't usually lift the

46:49

lid on this but in terms of the recruitment

46:51

it was pretty easy to find them. And

46:54

number two like you know I cannot stress how

46:56

bad news this is for Vrishu Sunak. If this

46:58

was replicated if this is you know

47:00

and as I say it's not a poll etc etc but

47:02

if this was repeated across the country if

47:05

this is not a freak focus group and

47:07

it applies to even a third of reform

47:09

voters then Vrishu Sunak could be facing you

47:12

know the worst electoral defeat because his entire

47:14

campaign his entire message relies on squeezing these

47:16

very voters. His only route to try and

47:19

keep the conservatives above you know 200 seats

47:21

or so is by squeezing these

47:24

voters they need to get them below 10 percent really they

47:26

need to get them below 5 percent because they're losing so

47:28

many voters to Labour too. What our focus

47:30

group is saying loud and clear is at

47:32

this stage at least those voters aren't aren't

47:35

going anywhere and they're sticking with their man in

47:37

Nigel Farage and reform. And the thing to remember

47:39

when we do these things is that all the

47:41

political parties will be doing polling and focus groups

47:43

alongside it and it's hard

47:45

to believe and because we've done this group before

47:47

you know conservative reform it's hard to believe that

47:50

they will be getting a different message when everyone talks

47:52

about private polling. There is no way private polling is

47:54

telling you something different you might have asked a different

47:56

question to get a different answer but private

47:58

polling is going to be telling you this. And these were

48:00

the kind of questions that I was asking when I was

48:03

doing it, you know, number 10 for Theresa May or UKIP

48:05

of other of other parties or Brexit party. And, you know,

48:07

this is they will be finding similar

48:09

things here. And I expect that looks a lot

48:11

worse this week than it did last week. So

48:14

many of you getting in touch. Sue

48:17

says I'm dismayed, listening to focus group and

48:19

cannot understand the belief that reform can be

48:21

a positive option to vote for. Matt

48:23

says when people say the focus group is stupid, it's

48:26

because they say things like Nigel Farage is a man

48:28

of the people. It's hard to see how that isn't

48:30

a stupid thing to say. Corey

48:32

says the snoggery in some of those

48:34

comments about the focus groups, these are

48:36

the people constantly dumbfounded by elections and

48:38

referendum outcomes. They need to get out

48:41

of their bubbles. And Craig

48:43

says I'd like to posit the biggest fools.

48:45

Are the focus groups are the ones messaging

48:47

you every month to say how thick the

48:50

group is, the lack of understanding the British

48:52

electorate says more about them. That's it for

48:54

the focus group this week. And we're back

48:56

on the podcast next Thursday as well. Let

48:58

me know what you think about it. What

49:00

does it reveal about what is going on

49:02

in the election? You can email me Matt

49:04

at Times. But for now, for me, Matt,

49:06

Charlie, it's goodbye. Your

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