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now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello,

1:29

I'm Matt Chorley, and this is Politics

1:31

Without the Boy. It's coming up on

1:34

today's episode as Kiz Stama launches his

1:36

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1:38

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1:40

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1:43

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1:45

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1:48

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1:50

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1:52

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1:54

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on your smart speaker, download the Times Radio

2:01

app. It's politics like the boy in bits, weekdays

2:03

from 10. Yeah,

2:11

I'm still reeling from this moment on

2:13

the leaders event on Sky last night.

2:15

My dad was a tool maker. He

2:17

worked in a factory. It's

2:19

true. I had no idea. I had no idea. Apparently

2:21

it is true. People laughed. Bit

2:24

move. Maybe it

2:26

was the discovery of what Keir Starmer's dad

2:29

did, which is one over Wes Streeting. He

2:31

was on Times Radio Breakfast this morning. When

2:33

he became leader of the Labour Party, did

2:35

I think that Keir Starmer would put us

2:37

in a position to win the following general

2:39

election? No, I thought this would be a

2:42

two-term project. I underestimated Keir. Turns

2:44

out he had the right tools for

2:46

the job. Meanwhile, the Tories are still

2:48

trying to get their story straight after

2:50

Grant Shapps yesterday on Times Radio went

2:52

rogue. You don't want to have somebody

2:54

receive a super majority. So

2:57

they finally let David Cameron out. They found him.

3:00

So they let him out this morning to hose it

3:02

all down with this shocking revelation. What

3:04

I know is that the more people

3:06

who vote conservative, the better chance we

3:08

will have. More

3:10

on that as we get

3:13

it. Manveen Rana and someone

3:15

called Matthew on Times

3:17

Radio. Ah, we

3:20

are joined by Manveen Rana. Hello, Manveen. Hello. And

3:22

we are joined also by Matthew Parris. Hello. So

3:24

if you're both here in the studio, we also

3:26

asked, well, which cakes are we joined by? Mini

3:29

donuts. Mini donuts. Not

3:31

homemade, unfortunately. I didn't have time. I think

3:33

the last time we were all together, I committed to baking a

3:36

quiche. I think you did, Matt. I wasn't going to point it

3:38

out, but where is it? What's the

3:40

etiquette of putting one of those mini donuts, the

3:42

whole thing in your mouth? I

3:45

think that's the sort of thing that might go viral on the internet.

3:48

Do you want to try? I'll film it. I

3:52

thought maybe that's really sort of inhaled that. Just

3:54

went down like a snake swallowing her. I have

3:56

another. When

3:58

a snake swallows her up. sheep hole

4:01

they're delicious chocolate ones I

4:04

will oh you did it's gone straight in

4:09

I'm very proud now well

4:12

that's the rest that's the next half hour it won't

4:16

take half hour I will

4:18

I'm hoping that we'll all be back in again before

4:20

you know feel key this

4:22

is all over I'll try make you do an

4:24

election key that'd be fun yeah maybe

4:27

he's a pie chart yeah maybe he has

4:29

to have some red I don't want blue blue is

4:31

the last day you don't

4:34

want blue foods nobody wants blue food I'll

4:37

have a think doing the

4:39

exit poll as a as a as a quiche well

4:42

you won't need much blue then well exactly that's true

4:44

we don't need to see two blueberries

4:47

we'll get you there so

4:50

Keir Starber unveiling his manifesto today and

4:54

you know where they're 20 points ahead all

4:57

the suggestions are the head of a majority even even Grant

4:59

Shapps says they're heading for a

5:01

super majority and

5:03

so I was quite interested whether you think this is an opportunity from

5:05

the base you spell out what they

5:07

will do yesterday I had Labour shadow business actually

5:09

Jonathan Reynolds on the show we had a bit

5:12

of a ding-dong about whether or

5:14

not this was the moment for honesty from the

5:16

Labour Party well we are confident in what we

5:18

are doing but I would just remind you do

5:20

you remember in 2010 that was the first time

5:23

I was elected at one point

5:25

people were saying David Cameron was set for a

5:27

massive majority he actually got hung Parliament in 2010

5:29

in 2017 the first few

5:31

weeks of that campaign were horrendous to be a

5:34

Labour candidate and then again that had turned around

5:36

by the end so I'm obviously not I'm not

5:38

spinning you a line I'm telling you campaigns you've

5:40

changed you can't be complacent you've got to take

5:43

it seriously that is what Labour is doing so

5:46

there he was Johnny Reynolds and he's not spinning us a

5:49

line they're not taking anything for granted said

5:51

he was being honest are they being honest

5:53

enough do you think Matthew yes

5:57

I think they are the thing is

5:59

they don't know what they're going to do. They

6:01

really don't. And so they're quite honest to not

6:03

telling us what they're not going to do because

6:05

they're just going to hope for the best. I

6:08

mean, they're not going to do anything dreadful and

6:10

they keep telling us they're not going to do

6:12

anything dreadful. Beyond that, I don't

6:14

think there's anything available for them to say. What

6:17

do you think, Manfey? Danny Finkelstein's got this

6:20

line which upset Peter Madison on House of an Election. Basically,

6:23

their campaign is Britain is broken

6:25

and we're not going to do anything about it. I

6:27

mean, it feels a bit like that. There are

6:30

no great answers coming forward. I

6:33

slightly worry about it. I think they're going to

6:35

get a massive majority of whatever happens. But I

6:38

mean, I was in Guildford yesterday looking at

6:40

some of the potentially the blue wall. And

6:43

it was interesting. The only vote, the only people

6:45

who were going to vote Tory were doing it

6:47

very reluctantly, but only because they were still slightly

6:50

afraid of the Labour Party. And I wonder if they'd just sort

6:52

of been a bit more open

6:54

about direction of travel. I

6:57

know there's just a safety first. We're

6:59

not promising anything really. But there's real

7:02

uncertainty. And I think for them, the

7:05

vibes are all off because it's all

7:07

about sort of private schools or the

7:09

potential of tax rises. And there's just

7:11

a sort of unease. Whereas

7:13

I think if they'd just been honest about or more straightforward.

7:15

I mean, I think Matthew's right. There's a lot they can't

7:18

commit to. They don't know what the finances will be like.

7:20

But in the leaders interviews

7:23

yesterday on Sky, you sort of get this moment where

7:26

Kiers Stalmer, when he's quizzed about Jeremy Corbyn or

7:28

about his support for a second referendum on Brexit

7:30

and how he won't talk about Europe, there's just

7:32

that sort of sense of just tell us what

7:35

you actually believe. I think there is a fear

7:37

that he's trying so hard to be all things

7:39

to all people, that it

7:41

doesn't actually wash. In the

7:43

last few years, the politicians who've done really well in

7:45

this country tend to be the ones who can claim

7:47

to be authentic. And people know exactly what they stand

7:49

for, even if they hate it. Whereas I sort of

7:52

think because he's trying

7:54

so hard to be everything, there's a fear

7:56

that nobody quite trusts him to be anything

7:58

in particular at all. I

8:00

thought his position on Jeremy Corbyn, because he's

8:02

been asked about this a lot, about why

8:04

he's now making a virtue, having kicked him

8:06

out, but he twice campaigned to

8:09

make him Prime Minister. And this is what he said

8:11

on the Sky debate last night. You said that he

8:13

would make a great Prime Minister. Now

8:15

will you actually say, yes, I thought that,

8:17

or I didn't think that at the time?

8:19

Just be honest. I

8:21

honestly didn't think that we had a chance of winning

8:23

that election. So you said it anyway. I

8:26

wanted to campaign for

8:28

our colleagues. And I then, once

8:31

we got the result that we did, which were the results that

8:33

I expected that we might get,

8:36

as I say, I decided to

8:39

step up to lead the party, not something I

8:41

had planned to do when I came into parliament,

8:43

and to change it and to put

8:45

it back in the service of working people. The reason I'm, and

8:47

we will move on, it's just, it's a trust issue. It's

8:50

so interesting that Matthew, his basic defences, it was

8:53

okay for me to go around saying vote for

8:55

Jeremy Corbyn because he was confident that no one

8:57

would take any notice. Yes, what

8:59

was he supposed to do? Resign, leave

9:01

the Labour Party. He was on his

9:03

way up in the Labour Party. He

9:05

is onto a hiding for nothing on

9:07

this because people, most ordinary

9:10

people, will just think, well, that's

9:12

stupid, him saying vote for Jeremy

9:14

Corbyn when we now know he

9:16

now thinks that Jeremy Corbyn was

9:18

a disaster. But looking at it a

9:21

little bit from the inside, politicians

9:23

in political parties do stick with the

9:25

team, even when they think the team

9:27

is going wrong, even when they don't

9:29

care for the leader, even when they

9:31

would hope to be leader themselves. You

9:33

stick with the team, and while

9:36

I don't think he's ever going to win

9:38

any argument on air by saying that, it

9:41

is a truth about all politicians. It's

9:44

not a particular truth about the weakness of

9:46

Keir Starmer. Although, if you actually look at

9:49

Keir Starmer's team now, Rachel

9:51

Weaves refused to serve, Wes

9:53

Streeton refused to serve, Ed Miliband didn't, Yvette

9:55

Cooper didn't, Pat McFadden didn't, Jonathan

9:59

Ashworth didn't. There are a lot of people who

10:01

said, I am a Labour MP, I'm sticking with

10:03

the party. They didn't go full Luciano Berger and

10:05

leave, but they didn't sit

10:07

in his shadow cabinet. You know, Jeremy

10:09

Corbyn lost a vote of confidence amongst

10:11

his own MPs in early 2016. A

10:14

couple months later, Keir Starber joined his cabinet. It's

10:16

a choice you take when

10:18

you're in a party which

10:21

you think has lost its way. One

10:24

very honorable choice to take is

10:26

to refuse to serve in its

10:28

cabinet or shadow cabinet. The

10:31

other is to stay on board

10:33

and serve and try and, so

10:36

far as you can, influence the direction. So

10:38

I don't think that Rachel Reeves

10:40

is right and

10:43

Keir Starmer wrong in what

10:45

they did or

10:47

didn't do to support Jeremy Corbyn. I

10:50

just understand it, that's all. Yeah, I suppose that,

10:52

I think it's important you make about Brexit.

10:55

Brexit, given that it's extraordinary, the

10:57

last election was the Brexit election. Yeah, now

10:59

nobody will talk about it. And nobody's talking

11:01

about it on an East side. But

11:03

again, I sort of think this is

11:06

exactly the moment why you were right

11:08

to say this is the moment for Keir Starmer to be honest, because

11:10

actually I think a lot of people across

11:12

the country wouldn't mind hearing it now.

11:15

There is a real sort of despair

11:17

with how things have worked out, even from

11:19

people who voted for Brexit. I think an

11:21

acknowledgement that perhaps things haven't gone

11:24

very well would be no bad thing, but nobody

11:26

will touch it politically. And I

11:28

think that's difficult. The

11:30

Lib Dems have touched it politically.

11:33

We know what they think of the House first. But

11:36

even then, they're not majoring on it.

11:38

No. In 2019 under Joe

11:40

Swinson, their campaign was rejoin. She

11:42

was going to be Prime Minister. Stop

11:45

it. But

11:47

I think it's having seen the collapse. Now

11:49

the Lib Dems won't talk about it openly, but

11:51

everybody knows they are the party off. But I

11:53

think it's weird that nobody really knows where Labour

11:55

is on this, or what they intend to do

11:57

about Brexit and our relationship with

11:59

Europe. over the next Parliament. Well, hopefully

12:01

they'll sort of move towards rejoining

12:03

the customs union. Hopefully,

12:06

but we don't know. No, no, we don't. But

12:10

the disinclination of

12:13

senior politicians to talk about Brexit

12:15

is, I think, echoed at almost

12:17

every supper table in Britain.

12:19

We don't like... We will stop talking about

12:22

Brexit. It's like Covid. Nobody wants to read...

12:24

I don't want to see a drama, I

12:26

don't want to read a book, set Joy

12:28

the Padlock. No, no. I think it's

12:31

partly because the Brexiteers feel

12:34

depressed and disappointed, and

12:36

the Remainers don't like to rub it in. Well, and

12:39

also don't really have a better idea now. No.

12:42

It's a bit, we are where we are. Yes. We

12:45

wouldn't start from here. Yes. Yeah.

12:47

There was also this question of whether or not

12:49

on the TV debates last night, or the TV...

12:52

Because it wasn't a debate, was it? It was

12:54

an event. An event. Which

12:57

you said seemed a bit deflated. David Cameron,

12:59

they found David Cameron. He's not just... He

13:02

doesn't just exist on ringing doorbells, as we were... Or

13:05

standing in at events where someone's already left. He

13:07

was out and about for the first time, I think, in the election campaign.

13:10

The Foreign Secretary was on time, very this morning, and

13:12

he's pumped up. He's fighting

13:14

an extraordinarily energetic campaign, in my view. I

13:16

mean, normally at the end of 14 years,

13:18

you find a party that's tired and run

13:20

out of ideas. And with us, you've seen

13:22

the ideas for national service, for keeping the

13:24

pension out of tax, the

13:26

cutting stamp duty for first-time buyers, the

13:29

really important decision to increase defence

13:32

spending in this dangerous and uncertain

13:34

world. It's been a very agenda-setting,

13:36

very energetic campaign that

13:38

he's leading. And as I say, anything is

13:40

possible. What I loved about that exchange

13:42

was, if you go through that shopping list, there

13:44

was the national service, which is just recreating

13:46

David Cameron's national citizen service, which he's part

13:49

of the big society, which is started in

13:51

scrap. Taking

13:53

the pension out of tax... The state pension

13:56

went into tax because the Tory government froze

13:58

the threshold. And

14:00

defence spending, David Cameron cut defence spending as part of

14:02

his... ...a statement of his own, all excellent ideas. I

14:07

don't think the state pension has gone into tax

14:09

even yet. It's just that it's going to go

14:11

into tax. Yeah, they've saved it all. Yeah, keep

14:13

going up. I thought it

14:15

was very interesting that he sort of says, you need...

14:17

at this stage you'd expect a party that's tired and

14:20

out of ideas, and then sort of names three things

14:22

that they could have done at any point over the

14:24

last... ...14 years and failed

14:26

to. In fact, at the opposite, as

14:28

you pointed out. And then sort

14:30

of says, but this is a great time. And, you

14:32

know, to also describe it as a campaign with energy

14:35

is a little ambitious, I think. I mean, there is

14:38

no energy. He's right

14:40

in a way, though, in that

14:42

Rishi Sunak is campaigning very

14:44

vigorously, and he appears

14:47

full of energy and fight in these debates. And

14:49

yet you just sense that he's weary

14:52

and wanting it all to be over, but

14:54

determined to put on a good show until the end.

14:56

I sort of feel like, especially after D-Day, you

14:59

know, I sense morale in number... ...within

15:02

campaign circles has really fallen.

15:05

I mean, I was talking to people

15:07

who'd always voted Tory, all their lives

15:10

yesterday in Guildford, who were like, that was the

15:12

last straw for me. And there's just... even people

15:14

who are voting Tory are doing it in such

15:16

a deflated state. I think it reflects the energy

15:18

of the people campaigning. There's a real sense of,

15:21

you know, nobody thinks this is a winning

15:23

ticket. If they do vote,

15:25

it's very reluctantly. And there's

15:27

just a sense that it doesn't really feel like

15:30

Rishi Sunak wants to be in power last July.

15:32

Oh, and he does it. He just

15:34

knows he hasn't got a hope. He's just

15:36

been real, isn't he? I mean, it must

15:38

be exhausting, you know, dragging it on.

15:40

Is it just inevitable, Matthew? Is

15:43

it... I think I've wrote about it the week.

15:45

I think I've wrote about it the weekend. Ken

15:47

Clark told me once that he thought that power

15:49

should come in a maximum of 10 years, a

15:52

dose of a maximum of 10 years for adults.

15:55

That actually, you know, whether it's one

15:58

person or a whole party... reach

16:00

a point where because the why haven't you

16:02

done this before question is very hard to

16:04

answer or you end up campaigning against yourself

16:06

and doing the opposite with thing you previously

16:08

is it just impossible to

16:11

mount an election campaign at this point the boy Johnson

16:13

was lucky in a way that he had Brexit because

16:16

he could talk about getting that done rather than

16:18

sorting out the schools and the hospitals or whatever that

16:20

the party been running for a decade Picasso

16:23

once said that as

16:26

you get older the wind just gets

16:28

stronger and always against you and I think

16:30

that's probably true of a party's

16:32

rain so

16:34

to speak as the rain gets older the

16:37

wind gets stronger and always against them for

16:39

very reasons you've mentioned. Ken Clark

16:41

and Picasso. I know, I was going to say

16:43

this is very erudite. Aren't we doing well? But

16:46

I do think it's a really interesting point especially in this country

16:48

where you tend to have economic cycles which go on for about

16:50

10 years or so so you end up

16:52

in a position where you are going to have

16:55

to probably turn turn around on your own policies

16:57

you know like cutting defense spending on the David

16:59

Cameron when we were in a period of austerity

17:01

now you look back and think actually interest

17:03

rates was eerie we should have been doing much

17:05

more defense spending and investment back then when it

17:08

was when it was so much cheaper but you

17:10

know it's very difficult over the span of 10

17:12

years to keep the same policies see them through

17:14

and then have a

17:17

new fresh plan for life changes. Even

17:19

the GCSE reforms that Michael Gove did

17:21

you know 10 years on probably

17:24

needed to be reformed again. But you know but once

17:26

you start doing that you actually look like you're campaigning

17:28

against yourself rather than the other. Now

17:31

Matthew you wrote this week in

17:33

your notebook about the merits of

17:35

loathe Picasso. Why is it a good idea do

17:37

you think? It's

17:40

an idea whose time has has

17:43

come I think or I I

17:45

hope in Thornton Wilder's The

17:48

Bridge of San Luis Rey he describes an abbess

17:51

who was in the 18th century who was

17:53

a feminist and Wilder

17:55

says she hurled

17:59

herself again. the spirit of her age,

18:01

having fallen in love with an idea that

18:04

was, whose appointed arrival in history

18:06

was two centuries later

18:08

on. I think

18:11

the appointment in history with road pricing

18:13

has come. Now, to a degree, when

18:16

we had to run our vehicles

18:19

either on petrol,

18:21

diesel or gas, we

18:24

were paying per mile. But

18:26

now that more and more people have

18:28

electric cars, and presumably in the future,

18:31

everyone will have electric cars, the government's

18:33

revenue from taxes on the

18:35

petrol pump, so to speak, is dropping

18:37

and dropping, and it's set to drop

18:40

by up to 40 billion in

18:42

the end. And the advantage of

18:44

road pricing, don't get

18:46

me going on this, but the advantage of

18:48

road pricing is we have the technology. Now,

18:51

we can road price, so to speak, from

18:53

your smartphone, and we can

18:55

charge more at congested

18:57

times at Russia and try to drive

18:59

more people who don't have to travel

19:02

at Russia onto the less congested time,

19:04

thus immensely improving

19:06

the productivity of

19:09

tarmac. It's got to

19:11

happen. But the opposition,

19:13

whoever, whatever government proposes it,

19:15

will call it a poll tax on wheels.

19:18

Motorists will, well, the motorists who do

19:20

a lot of motoring will hate it.

19:22

The motorists who don't do much motoring

19:24

won't really realize that it's in their

19:27

favor, but it's got to come. Well, we can

19:29

now go live to somewhere where it happens in

19:31

Iceland. We've got the journalist,

19:33

Sfana Torkelsson, who's on the line. Hello. Hi,

19:36

good morning. Hello. So tell us how

19:38

road pricing works in Iceland. Well,

19:42

it was implemented at

19:44

the beginning of the

19:46

year, where people are new

19:49

cars, electric cars only at

19:52

the moment, are paying about

19:54

four pcs per kilometer. And

19:58

they can pay it monthly. or

20:02

at any time basically and

20:04

it's all checked out that when

20:06

they go for MOT checkout

20:09

then it is sort of equaled out. This

20:12

is supposed to come instead of

20:14

the some of the seven different

20:17

charges and taxes that we already

20:19

have on vehicles but

20:22

and in fact people are

20:25

hoping that some of them

20:27

will be lifted when they

20:29

implement this on regular

20:33

cars diesel

20:35

and carbon fuel cars as

20:37

well. This is going to

20:39

happen next year. How's

20:41

it gone down with the public? Has there been a lot

20:43

of opposition to people think it's a good idea? Is this

20:45

sort of staging with the electric before you go on to

20:48

petrol and diesel sort of helping the transition? What's been

20:50

the reaction? Well

20:52

this came from the

20:55

National Association of Car Owners

20:57

in Iceland this suggestion and

21:00

they made sure that there

21:02

was a wide agreement upon

21:04

this to do this and

21:06

people generally think this is

21:09

fair although that they

21:11

haven't yet sort of seen

21:13

how they are going to

21:16

equalize between the sizes of cars

21:18

you see because they we know that

21:21

the bigger cars lorries and

21:23

buses and so on they will

21:26

use more of

21:28

our road system and wear it

21:30

out more than smaller cars

21:33

and this is still something that

21:35

they are tackling. I suppose

21:37

it's one of those things which once you've got the system up and

21:39

running you can tweak it in that way. What do you think about

21:41

it? Do you drive? I don't which obviously makes me

21:43

the right person to talk about this. I

21:47

don't think having personal experience of something normally

21:49

stops people pontificating on areas of life. Well,

21:51

it's immediate. I

21:54

do think it sounds

21:56

infinitely sensible. Once you make those tweaks for

21:58

the size of the vehicle and also they are going to be It'd have

22:00

to be an inbuilt advantage if you have an electric

22:02

vehicle. But you could scrap a lot of the other

22:04

taxes in that work with this and make it all

22:07

about usage rather than ownership. Exactly. Which I think makes

22:09

much more sense. And

22:11

you know, a lot of the advantages,

22:14

tax advantages for electric vehicles were all about

22:16

encouraging certain types of behavior. The

22:18

best way of doing that is by taxing

22:20

usage, surely. So if this is about

22:23

the environment at the same time as trying to

22:25

help the state of the roads, both things, taxing

22:27

usage seems like the answer. I know this is

22:29

a slight aside, but can I also just say, I

22:31

do think, I've read Matthew's column on this. I do think John

22:34

Gummer is turning into a very good,

22:37

well, a very good reason for the House of

22:39

Lords to carry on. He's coming up with a

22:42

lot of the best ideas and challenging, you know,

22:44

as a Tory peer, challenging the government better

22:47

than almost anyone else. I sort

22:49

of think, well, hurrah for him. Absolutely, having

22:51

his brave, his intelligent, and his

22:54

enlightened. Why are they

22:56

never like that when they're in power? Oh,

22:59

it's interesting. It's loads and loads and loads of you getting in

23:01

touch about this. Jill

23:03

says, we generally pay if there's an adequate public transfer.

23:05

I live in a small village outside Cambridge, very few

23:08

buses. I certainly couldn't work in Cambridge

23:10

using public transport. Then someone else says, we already,

23:12

Sam says, we already pay per mile for driving.

23:14

Current payment is made through petrol duty and VAT

23:16

and each liter of fuel, which is the part

23:18

that you imagine. But if we're moving to electric,

23:20

then you're not getting that. So that money's got

23:22

to come from somewhere. And by doing

23:24

it, you know, and I suppose technology just

23:27

changes things and people's ability to monitor.

23:29

Anyway, it's fascinating. And it's nice to

23:32

talk about actual policy. That was a

23:34

maintenance story. Especially in the election, that's so

23:36

rare. The fact that nobody's proposing it

23:38

is entirely, entirely hit the hill there. Manveen Rana

23:40

and Matthew Parris. Then of course you can read

23:42

Matthew in the Times with your subscription at thetimes.com

23:45

and listen to Manveen on the Story podcast.

23:47

While we were discussing whether or

23:50

not Keir Starmer had to be

23:52

more honest, could be more honest

23:54

with his manifesto. Well, here is

23:56

the man of the moment, Labour

23:58

leader Keir Starmer, unveiling Labour's. General

24:00

Election Manifesto. Today we can

24:03

turn the page. Today we can

24:05

lay a new foundation of stability. And

24:08

on that foundation we can start

24:10

to rebuild Britain. A Britain

24:12

renewed by an old argument that

24:14

we serve working people as

24:17

their ambition drives our country

24:19

forward. Keir Starmer

24:21

then laying out his prospectus for government,

24:23

were we to win the election three

24:26

weeks today. Supporters,

24:28

the co-op offices in Manchester, on

24:32

their feet giving them a standing of vation against

24:35

a backdrop, a very red labour

24:37

backdrop with just one word, the word change

24:39

is the same word which is on the

24:41

front of the manifesto. Gabriel Pogan, the Whitehall

24:44

editor of the Sunday Times is here. Gabriel, is it fair

24:48

to say the only moment of excitement

24:50

or note in that was the protest

24:53

at the very beginning? And even that actually only

24:56

served to reiterate the message that Keir Starmer

24:58

started to land? Yes, I mean though, I

25:01

think that when you deliberately don't do

25:03

things then you open yourself

25:06

up to being defined by unexpected events.

25:08

But, you know, there were no pyrotechnics,

25:10

there was no rabbit out of the

25:12

hat. It was all

25:15

designed to firm up this notion

25:18

that there are no surprises, we're

25:20

not going to destabilise businesses, we're

25:22

not going to introduce death

25:24

tax or dementia tax or anything that could come back

25:26

to haunt us and for that

25:28

reason, as you

25:31

say, the only bit of surprise was

25:34

somebody who might as well

25:36

have been a Labour sleeper

25:38

agent because she merely

25:40

served as a pretext for Keir Starmer to

25:42

reiterate his core message about where he's

25:45

taking the party. Gabriel Pogan there, and of course you can catch him

25:47

in the Sunday Times this weekend. Up next, who

25:50

are the voters switching to? Labour will

25:53

speak to people who backed the S&P

25:55

in Scotland last time round, but

25:57

are now switching. We'll do that next. Ryan

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Reynolds

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27:33

Listen to Cocaine Inc. wherever

27:35

you get your podcasts. The

27:46

big thing. Every

27:49

month on Times Radio we convene the

27:51

Times Radio focus group of real voters

27:54

to ask them how they think the

27:56

government's getting on and what really matters

27:58

to them outside the Westminster

28:00

bubble and for the general election campaign we

28:02

bring you one every week. And

28:06

Tom Lubbock from JL Partners is in the

28:08

hot seat for this week's group. John's been

28:10

out. Hello Tom. Hi Matt, good morning. So

28:12

who are we hearing from today? We're talking

28:14

to SMP 2019 voters who are now saying

28:16

they're thinking

28:18

about voting Labour so a key group in Scotland

28:20

they're going to be vital to this election. And

28:23

where were they? They were all

28:25

over Scotland. All spread all over Scotland. And

28:28

just remind us what a focus group is and

28:31

what it isn't. It's like a Petri dish of

28:33

voters. We're not claiming this is a representative sample.

28:35

It's not like an opinion poll. We're zooming in

28:37

on a group of voters to check how they're

28:39

thinking, to look at how the arguments and messages

28:41

are landing. And it's a trying test. You know

28:44

at the moment the polls show that in Scotland

28:46

Labour are ahead of the SMP so people are

28:48

clearly switching and we're sort of

28:50

trying to find out why are they doing

28:52

that? Are they doing it enthusiastically, reluctantly, begrudgingly,

28:55

whatever might be the motivation. So

28:58

let's dive straight in then. Let's start with

29:01

first of all what this group remember voted SMP

29:03

now voting Labour. What they

29:05

think about or wishy-sunak. I mean you might

29:07

expect them not to like him and

29:10

they didn't. He's obviously out of touch.

29:13

Seems just a bit clueless about actually

29:15

what people want and what

29:17

we need. He's uninteresting in

29:20

the common. People he really

29:22

is. He's just interested in falling in their

29:24

pockets. Privileged and he's been

29:27

pushed into a position where he's just

29:30

a voice with nothing behind it. I

29:32

just find him absolutely baccuous.

29:35

I've written cute tiny

29:37

useless posh. Cute

29:41

tiny useless posh sounds like somebody's tinder

29:44

profile. I don't think she's going to vote for

29:46

him even though she thinks he's cute. There was

29:48

that dishy-wishy phase wasn't there? Yeah but

29:51

also there's a difference between cute

29:53

in an attractive partner way or

29:55

cute in a sort of tiny

29:57

little door mouse. Yeah exactly. which

30:00

is probably not as much as, I mean, we

30:02

wouldn't necessarily expect this group to be very enthusiastic,

30:04

given that previously SMP are now going to Labour.

30:06

No, they just really proved that the Prime Minister

30:08

is seen as out of touch by most voters,

30:10

and confirmed that. Yeah, fine, but let's

30:12

not dwell too much on that, because that's not the

30:15

pool we're fishing in. Remember, the people

30:17

who voted SMP last time ran, so let's

30:19

find out what they think of the relatively

30:21

new SMP leader and First Minister, John Swinney.

30:23

I haven't particularly named him. I just think

30:25

it's assumed that he's no the head of

30:27

the SMP. I

30:29

think the SMP have just

30:31

completely ruined themselves and struggled. It's

30:34

the SMP catching its straws a

30:36

bit to improve the image that

30:38

has been marred in the last

30:40

two or three years. He's

30:43

not been around long enough to really

30:46

judge him. I think he's just kind of been

30:48

thrown in, and this has all sort of kicked

30:50

off. He's just down there, because

30:52

the previous leaders have made a massive effort,

30:55

I think that's the only reason he's there.

30:57

Because I was kind of thinking, Nicholas Sturgeon's

30:59

like a difficult one to come

31:02

after, but he's definitely came in

31:04

fighting. Yeah, he gets brought in

31:06

as this, oh

31:08

he's got to be the head of the SMP, this is what we're

31:10

going to do. I think

31:12

everybody's forgetting that he has been around the

31:15

SMP for so long, and he

31:17

was part of the problem. Interesting,

31:20

that. So we'll come to the Nicholas Sturgeon thing

31:22

in a moment, but this slight sense, because John

31:24

Swinney had previously led the SMP, donkey years ago

31:26

before they got into government. He's

31:28

not a, you know, it's hard to be the

31:31

changed candidate when you've been there longer than anyone

31:33

else. Yeah, it's remarkable that the SMP have

31:35

essentially ended up in the same position as the

31:37

Conservatives, the two parties that perhaps despise each other

31:39

most. Both have gone through these

31:42

repeated leadership crises and are seen as in

31:45

a bit of chaos and a bit all

31:47

at sea. So what did

31:49

they think then of whether

31:51

or not they'd like to hear more from

31:54

Nicholas Sturgeon, who obviously did take the SMP

31:56

to extraordinary polling heights. Would they like to

31:58

hear more from her in the campaign? No,

32:00

absolutely not. It's not so

32:03

much her, it's her husband. She

32:05

ruined her legacy, aren't she? Yeah, she has. I

32:07

mean, she obviously left before all of this was

32:10

found out, you know, to leave on a high

32:12

note. I mean, it turns

32:14

your stomach to think of people that

32:17

you sort of had trust in deleting messages,

32:20

you know, calling the people

32:22

that she's... Anyway,

32:24

yeah, it's just, it's very irritating, I'm

32:27

certain. I get the same...

32:29

Nick Wisterjem brings up the same things

32:31

in my head as Rishi Sunak, completing

32:34

all our lies that comes out her

32:36

mouth, and she'll say anything to get

32:38

ahead. So

32:41

that's interesting, all of that stuff that's gone on

32:43

with the SMP, our husband Peter Moll being arrested,

32:45

the deleting of WhatsApp

32:47

messages during Covid, all of that has just turned

32:49

into a sort of soup. Actually, like

32:51

you said, parallels with the Tory party. Yeah,

32:54

these are 2019 SMP voters. If we'd talked

32:56

to them then, they would have been really

32:58

enthusiastic about Nick Wisterjem from what they were

33:01

saying. The distance she has fallen is quite

33:03

remarkable. They'd given her no quarter whatsoever there.

33:07

And I suppose then that becomes the

33:09

sort of the push factor as

33:12

to why they're moving away from the SMP. Before

33:14

we hear what they think about the Labour Party, we should just hear what

33:16

they had to say about, you know, because

33:18

they could go from the SMP to the Scottish Conservatives, and

33:21

we had to say about the Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross.

33:24

Douglas Ross, in my opinion, is a vile

33:26

little toad of a man, and

33:28

that's the only phrase that springs to mind when

33:30

I see his smug face on every screen. Maybe

33:34

put it down as a maybe. Yeah,

33:36

I couldn't suppress a little giggle there. A

33:38

bit unprofessional, sorry. Right,

33:41

okay, here we go then. This is what we're actually here

33:43

for. These are people who, remember, voted SMP in 2019. They

33:48

were all planning to vote Labour. That was how they

33:50

recruited. Remember, listeners, we're

33:52

not, I'm not involved. Tom's not involved in

33:54

the recruitment as an independent market research company.

33:58

They go out and find people. They could be finding people who

34:00

want to... review crisps, they could be

34:02

doing washing powder, they could, you know, in this case

34:04

we were looking for people who said they'd voted S&P,

34:06

now voting Labour. So this is what

34:09

the group thought about Keir Starmer.

34:11

I think as a trade unionist and

34:14

someone who I think should naturally

34:16

lean towards Labour, Keir Starmer, Sir,

34:18

Keir Starmer absolutely horrifies me. I

34:20

think he's very bland, I think

34:22

he's very

34:26

very right-wing for a

34:28

Labour leader and just

34:30

there's no charisma, there's no

34:33

passion about him, it's just

34:35

a guy in a suit. I was

34:38

writing down Sleekit there, I don't know

34:40

if you know what that means. Translate

34:42

for me, translate for me. It's a

34:44

bit sneaky, you know, but I

34:47

feel that he's sometimes uncomfortable what he

34:49

wants to say, you know, you're not

34:52

actually getting that sort of genuine, he

34:55

slithers about with some opinions but

34:57

he's certainly better than the turdies,

34:59

that's for sure. I just

35:02

wrote weak tea on inspiring.

35:04

Tea on the upset everybody, I think

35:07

he's just, he's realistic. To me

35:09

Keir Starmer is just, this

35:11

is what my job is, my job's to go

35:13

to try and fix the economy, it's

35:15

not going to be easy and this is

35:18

what we're going to do. Blanche and Beige

35:20

as well. If he was to

35:22

go to a meeting with world leaders, would

35:24

I trust that he has the UK's back

35:28

and would he be strong enough to stand up against

35:30

other leaders and for me no? I

35:33

mean that's interesting, on the day that Rishi

35:36

Sinak is at a summit of world leaders at

35:38

the G7, the

35:43

question though of why there they are voting,

35:45

they seem to really dislike Keir Starmer, so

35:47

why are they voting for him? I think

35:49

they're in two camps aren't they, there's those

35:52

who say he's weak tea which is like

35:54

a perfect summary of how so many of

35:56

these voters think about Starmer and then there

35:58

is the actual hostel. of

44:00

how much they'd notice the SMP

44:02

out campaigning because you know Alex

44:04

Sammond before you know Nick Asturgeon

44:06

too, you know very

44:08

high profile campaigners you know zipping around

44:10

in helicopters and buses and lots of

44:12

stuff had this group of former SMP

44:14

voters noticed much going on? I've

44:17

not seen anything since then. I've had one

44:19

leaflet through the door, not so. Same, I've

44:21

had one leaflet, I've not seen anyone actually

44:23

knocking on doors to speak to people and

44:25

I was quite surprised at that because usually

44:27

the SMP have been a bit more proactive,

44:29

they've got quite a large kind of grassroots

44:32

there and they have been a lot noisier

44:34

than previous elections so I was quite disappointed

44:36

in that. I think the SMP have been

44:38

really low key. You weren't actually know there

44:40

was an innovation coming up if it wasn't

44:42

for the news? I

44:44

genuinely think the SMP are trying to keep under

44:48

the radar until the last minute. Again

44:52

a party in retreat, not doing so well

44:54

in the polls, it's harder to get people

44:56

out campaigning knocking on door, the Conservatives have

44:58

got the same problem right now and people

45:00

notice that. Yeah again the parallel with the

45:02

Conservatives is so interesting that Rishi Sunak seems

45:05

to have caught two parties off guard with

45:07

his election announcement, the SMP and bits of

45:09

the Conservative party as well. And we'll be

45:11

back with another Focus Group next week but

45:13

for now for me Matt, surely it's goodbye.

45:26

Ah, who the **** is supposed to be on

45:28

the Parkman Drive job this morning? Where

45:31

did I put this week's schedule? Oh

45:33

that's right I spilled **** coffee on it. Are

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