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get your pockets. Hello!

1:09

I'm actually this is Politics without the bomb

1:11

it's coming up on. Today's episode is the

1:13

Leaders' Debate Impact same ship and I pick

1:16

over the and trails of which is seen

1:18

as vs Case damn it to work out

1:20

What does he told me before that in

1:22

the colonists robot Cramps and and Alice Thompson

1:24

on the message behind a Davies Madness and

1:26

could look at cramps and cut it as

1:29

a tall guy to or even like what

1:31

you hear on the podcast Don't forget you

1:33

could join me for Politics Out the Boy

1:35

Meets Live On Times Radio on you Da

1:37

Be Radio on your smart speaker. Or download

1:40

the Times Radio Out That's politics without

1:42

the Boy Meets Weekdays from time. While.

1:48

Then were you watching it?

1:50

Don't worry if you missed

1:52

it. Here ways: these sixty

1:54

minute debates in sixty seconds.

1:56

These two men who want to run. the

1:58

country whole a what i say is this,

2:02

my dad worked in a factory, he

2:04

was a toolmaker, my mum was a nurse, £2,000 worth

2:07

of high taxes, my dad was a toolmaker, £2,000. Please

2:11

raise your hand if I am

2:13

not wrong. You as Prime

2:15

Minister will not raise your hand. I'll

2:17

also raise your hand, we're going to

2:19

be talking about talking again later on.

2:22

Toolmaker, £2,000. Please

2:24

and appeal from me not to speak over one another.

2:26

I think it's going to be transformational for young people

2:28

in our country, giving them the skills. Please, please, call

2:31

off again. Why do you want to put everyone's hand

2:33

up? No, I am going to draw a line under

2:35

this part of the debate. My dad was £2,000. So

2:38

here, slightly with my tongue in cheek,

2:40

if you'll forgive me, both of you,

2:42

is a question that we've literally just

2:44

had in from Gareth, who's on his way

2:47

to Germany. Absolute

2:49

garbage. From all of us here in

2:51

Salzburg, tonight. All

2:58

you needed to know. All you needed to

3:00

know. We will unpack it properly later with Tim Shippen.

3:02

I'll see no PMQs today. So

3:05

instead of PMQs, I will unpack that

3:07

with Tim Shippen later. Before that. If

3:11

you're looking forward to all the trouble.

3:13

All week she's been showing me photographs

3:15

of her bus and now I've come

3:17

to see this fantastic bus. Now this

3:19

is fun. Enjoy yourself. Whoo!

3:24

That's Charlie's continued. Loads of nominations from the

3:26

Charlie's yesterday. Obviously quite a lot from the

3:28

debate last night. This is

3:30

my favourite from yesterday.

3:33

Well, screening. The Shadow House safety could

3:35

be how sexy I are for the

3:37

election. On the local

3:39

BBC News, talking about

3:41

Labour's plans to rebuild hospitals. I was

3:43

just keen to be clear on which

3:46

four hospitals you're outlining you are going

3:48

to rebuild in London. Well,

3:50

it's St Mary's. It's,

3:54

sorry, it's one. It's Hillington.

3:57

Sorry, I'm just charring cross.

4:00

And it's... I'm witscoss. It's

4:02

my locust. If

4:06

you spot something worth it, because he

4:08

surely is, you can email me Matt

4:10

at timeslottradio. What's up? What's

4:21

that now? Is it turning to ET? It's turning to

4:23

ET. It's turning to ET.

4:28

It was quite long, this is not hard to do all day. If you need to

4:30

get on with it, turn it off. Get

4:33

rid of it. Ah

4:40

yes, there they are. It's Alice Thompson. Hello both. Good

4:42

morning. Hello. So

4:45

we've been talking about non-election news. I've

4:47

just eaten Stig Abel's crust. Yeah. So

4:49

you came in this morning and found

4:51

a single croissant and a plastic wrapper.

4:54

Yeah, wrapped up. Somebody had

4:56

made the absolute schoolboy error of leaving

4:58

it. But it looks about three days old,

5:00

doesn't it? Well, it's quite fresh. I mean Matt hadn't...

5:02

Fermenting. Matt had most of it. Where have they come

5:05

from? Oh, there's one in the Kudavines. Got one as

5:07

well. They've got

5:09

like chocolate inside. Yeah. Which helped

5:11

it from being too dry. But I thought it tasted

5:13

a bit boozy. Which made me worried that the chocolate

5:15

is sort of... Fermented

5:17

into some sort of alcohol. Mmm.

5:20

Hope not. Anyway. Give me a drink. No,

5:23

don't. Don't step me off again. That's another

5:25

one. Have you got any non-election news on a

5:27

share with the nation, Robert? I went

5:29

to my German evening class last night. Nice. I

5:32

stuck with it. I'm really pleased with myself because I started in

5:34

September and I usually flake by now. And

5:37

you've written about it now. Three times actually. Three times.

5:40

No further use. Yeah, exactly.

5:42

I'm still doing it. And

5:45

nobody there was talking about the

5:47

election at all before during our election. I'm dangerously close

5:49

to being election news, Robert. No, I'm...

5:52

There's news being that nobody was talking about it. Is that because

5:54

none of you know what the word for election is in German?

5:57

That's true, but we talked... Article:

6:00

Hand Hour or an English because our Germany's

6:02

super the rope it so. The

6:05

know a whole lot once you in the womb. German only.

6:07

Yeah. Pretty much yeah but before we left with only

6:10

way to him via city know what the job

6:12

was was exodus. Know what

6:14

not to? I honestly believe what it again

6:16

next year nielsen let's put another hundred sometimes

6:18

like see I miss out the stepping on

6:20

I belong to the now suspect out of

6:22

the three to what I say to precisely

6:25

if you know what of gym but relaxed

6:27

and or if you've got a non election

6:29

news to sets everybody anonymous. Yeah,

6:31

well. I want all sites. They actually thanked the

6:33

front door. I'm from going to play that's. What

6:35

am I saw? Some sort of the nothing really

6:37

to balloons and. Yeah, I dunno why we decided

6:39

it the before I got bored of the

6:41

green of the twentieth announcing study. Were doesn't

6:43

disappoint. Us and color Navy Vi bright

6:46

blue. Know. It sucks. it's a ton of

6:48

need blaze, but I. Guess. Is in London or

6:50

debts and mon not born in a king was a famous about

6:52

it. Yeah, well, that's the problem is that she's. Got

6:54

supplies. For. Has. Semi dancing.

6:56

It's a set of. A mess and

6:59

most of table scraps yesterday that he says he

7:01

will is a couple weeks three years ago. yea

7:03

if we discovered the Cake Muslims around the corner

7:05

from Alice is renting to the when the sign

7:07

little Taste miles so is that the Hampton Way

7:09

son went for as a society based on not

7:11

gonna do you over for the past That and

7:13

that was of the super awesome. Because I

7:16

would like busy alice. Just don't watch the debate.

7:18

I didn't say people actually did not a

7:20

source of abd and carry on since I

7:22

did it last year. asked what the deck.

7:25

Of pretty his Obamacare yes or that guy

7:27

just about jet wash my jacket don't get

7:29

what he that Why? Because the I get

7:31

what is really powerful you'll come up by

7:33

oh my bill. take the the sleep on

7:36

the shelf or the pomegranate auto shop I

7:38

get it. was it about all right but

7:40

easy Jet was it without is also just

7:42

might to start some not myself if I

7:44

powerful and smoking and to have been away

7:46

for weeks at Gabi Gusto and a sweater

7:48

last night but more not as when we

7:50

get it do get in touch a you

7:52

can email me mad at times that radio

7:55

or out. With a double o,

7:57

three two three parts of your

7:59

non Oleksyn meetings. So the Deval:

8:01

Dick The Vault. Is

8:03

doubly taxing of it. What's all this

8:06

vibe that ave Los people sending a

8:08

degenerate bizarre alright thanks Obama sought his

8:10

pocket parliament's Valls. Are going

8:12

to much longer than love it and

8:14

I'm very very brief pajamas done this

8:17

event of all farm animals or with

8:19

us allies that are we've gotta ask

8:21

us google time that valve area vase

8:23

a good nice a message with these

8:26

more that biggest cities and it's a

8:28

month so let's talk about the vol

8:30

odds are away from the Tv to

8:32

my last night's are you video com

8:34

zionist a bounce at Davis Ugly and

8:37

message in what appears to be his

8:39

madness. So. I would I

8:41

like of them that they has just

8:43

gone for and I think they know

8:45

that the judge says they've gone now.

8:47

More slides Safe sex Hippomenes we see

8:49

nine say well at Davis form of

8:51

just everything is on and sang the

8:53

pile he see as the iraqis up

8:55

like is ingenious. Any persons. Enjoying and

8:58

the last few weeks and. And

9:00

awareness and of modern for just embracing. And I

9:02

also think they could have more serious message sense

9:04

of this election that be much more sense of

9:07

loss Elections they're only gonna contest mind to seats

9:09

really the ones that they think they can went

9:11

off the Tories that getting to the Tories says

9:13

that they're not going to class with labour and

9:15

they also have a message which is care and

9:18

I think that's a really good one because I

9:20

think that would think and no one's doing what's

9:22

gonna happen to the elderly no one thing people

9:24

with disabled children and at days is very well

9:26

positioned to do that because his mother died when

9:29

he was very young. Was possibly

9:31

the five his mother died. When he is

9:33

this team he cared for his mother, his

9:35

wife's got multiple sclerosis, and he's got a

9:37

disabled some the he's been a cow all

9:39

his life says don't care I think is

9:41

a really good idea and really important. And

9:43

does a policy stuck up the ones

9:45

events in your column on about. Free.

9:48

Free Her. I. Think. It's a

9:50

really good idea to out. What we're saying is kind

9:53

to people out of hospital energy and that will

9:55

benefit the long term benefits the Nhs. But it

9:57

will. And actually, I think it's incredibly helpful for people

9:59

And it's. like a lot of money but

10:01

they're financing it through all the sort of

10:03

don-don, you know, they kind of, you know, um,

10:05

well hopefully, hopefully Labour will nick it. Well

10:08

that's what you want and that's what you want from them and I

10:10

do want them to be the third party again actually. I

10:12

think they are quite beneficial when they're there and they've got

10:14

enough of a presence. They do swing stuff and they've got,

10:16

you know, the other thing they're doing is sewage. I think

10:18

that's quite an important issue to do and they keep bringing

10:20

that up and I think they'll do really well on that. Especially

10:22

in the south west, where, er, Heartland,

10:25

that was a big thing down there, wasn't it? I

10:27

was with you last week when I was off and

10:29

I was sort of consuming the election more like a

10:31

normal person going about in business and maybe catching up

10:33

on the news at the end of the day. The

10:35

thing that really struck me was the sort of sense

10:37

of Wissheesenak throwing out just anything he could think of,

10:39

the national service and this argument that he used last

10:41

night that, well, people are talking about it, they thought,

10:43

well, if you shaved, you know, if

10:45

you shaved your heads people would talk about it.

10:47

It was sort of a policy. Anyway, and

10:50

then Labour would bog down and die an advert

10:52

and then Ed Dave, he was punching through. He

10:54

was clearly getting more coverage as a

10:56

result of the silly stunts.

10:58

He looked like he was enjoying himself. And actually, it's

11:01

interesting, we've got an interview coming out later this week

11:03

with Donitz Hamburg, historian at

11:05

Times Commerce, and we were talking about how this election

11:07

compares to previous ones and how, er, you

11:10

know, the sixties, you had Howard Wilson, they embraced Telly

11:12

and then, you know, the internet and all that. And

11:15

we've sort of reached a point now where everyone's so

11:17

cynical, everyone knows what they're doing. The

11:19

Ed Dave, he's sort of deconstructing the

11:21

entire notion of a general election campaign.

11:24

Yeah. They're going and meeting a carefully

11:26

selected group of people and then, you

11:29

know, he's just mucking about. He's just

11:31

like saying, all you want is

11:33

a silly picture of me. I'm going to give, I'm

11:35

going to tell you I threw myself in the water.

11:37

Yeah. And that's fine. And we don't mind. And

11:40

he's got, and he's, and he's got Alice Renton and

11:42

Colm about him as a result. So, you know, it's

11:44

kind of working. But also I think

11:46

the Nigel Farage, it's really interesting seeing the difference.

11:48

So Nigel likes doing that, but he does it

11:50

in a very constructed way and he thinks he's

11:52

very charismatic and it's sort of, actually it was

11:54

so up himself in the end, you realise, and

11:56

then actually I thought I'd quite like about Ed

11:58

Dave. He's sort of. You know, he's making

12:00

it into a joke. And Nigel Farage thinks that

12:02

he's the interloper, the one

12:05

that's coming in, and he thinks he's the alternative

12:07

protest vote. And actually, I think the Lib Dem

12:09

should be more of that. I think the Lib Dem should be

12:11

the protest vote. And there's only so long for us, couldn't do that. I mean, he's

12:13

been doing it for 30 years. I mean, I think Danny

12:16

made the point, Danny Finkelson made the point that

12:18

he's actually the continuity candidate, in a sense. I

12:20

thought that was really interesting. Yeah, he's the kind

12:22

of more chaos. And just

12:25

can't, you know, maybe there's something to be said

12:27

for the boring grownups for a while. And that

12:29

sort of, it clearly appeals to a section of

12:31

the electorate, the sort of nine of us. What

12:33

we need is a revolution. We need to tie

12:35

everything on over his head. Yeah, but we, what

12:37

we very, very, very should, we very rarely ever

12:39

need a revolution. They don't end well.

12:42

That's enough revolutions in the last. They rarely end

12:44

well. Also, when you hear Ed

12:46

Davey talking about his background, his childhood, it's

12:48

just so much more difficult than either Keir

12:50

Starmore or Ushisune or Nigel Farage. I

12:52

mean, he was actually almost crying when he talks

12:55

about the fact that it was in his disabled child.

12:57

When he dies, he doesn't know what's going to happen

12:59

to him. And that was unbelievably moving. Well, we're so

13:01

conditioned to thinking about difficulty

13:04

in childhood related to social class. And

13:07

it's not always, I mean, it

13:09

is, but it's also related to- Well, he was quite a

13:11

working-class family, but he had this amazing family that everything went

13:13

wrong, didn't it? Yeah, but that would be hard even if

13:15

he were well off. That would be pretty

13:18

tough background. I think- In

13:20

fact, it's worth, if you are interested, it's worth

13:22

listening back. Was it the end of last year

13:24

you had Davey on? Yes. It was really extraordinary.

13:27

I've never seen a childhood that went more wrong,

13:29

are they? Alison Rachel's podcast,

13:31

What I Wish I'd Known, which is

13:33

fine. I thought the National Service

13:35

thing was pretty contemptible just to get

13:37

a headline in the mail on Sunday. Because

13:39

there's a germ of a good idea there, actually. But

13:43

just to do that, and then to say that people could

13:45

be a firefighter once a month, is

13:48

pretty condescending towards people who trained to do that job.

13:50

But also, if you've taken the military bit out of

13:52

it, it's actually the idea that you're going to compel

13:56

a 18 year old. Yeah, it's a good idea to

13:58

recruit to have another 30,000 people. people

14:00

around the country getting to know

14:02

other people and giving something back and then

14:05

they're just like, yeah, we'll pick it up later, whatever. They

14:07

see the National Citizen Service. Which

14:09

is what David Cameron did and then Rishi Sunak cut

14:11

back on it. So he's already cut back on this and

14:13

then he re-announces it. That's what I think. I think he

14:15

is by far the most cynical at the moment, just pushing

14:17

out ideas. Yeah, that was really pretty shameful. And

14:21

it was notable that when it was brought up in

14:23

the TV debate last night, people laughed. And if people

14:25

are laughing then, you know. Unless

14:29

you're in the stabbed up business. And Matthew Parris says

14:31

this morning, actually a case for the National Service for

14:33

the over 60s rather than for the 18s. I

14:36

particularly enjoyed the suggestion that they could all be

14:38

issued with those long handled grabbers. Well

14:40

that might be Robert Sinks I think. He may

14:42

be coming up to 60. I am

14:44

60 in two months time. No you're not.

14:46

Yes, it's incredible isn't it? We're going to be invited to party

14:48

as well I think. We'll

14:50

hope so. Yeah, there is a... When is it? Correct.

14:53

My birthday is August the 10th. You'll be gone.

14:55

Oh we'll be gone by then. You was doing

14:57

some... No, we don't need to get bogged out

14:59

of that. End of July. End of July. And

15:02

then obviously tending the garden. I'll

15:04

write that. Anyway,

15:07

let's talk about the country side. There's

15:10

a great piece in the Times today from

15:13

Abby Kay, the Deputy Editor of Farmers Weekly.

15:15

Looking at young farmers, but that's young

15:17

with a capital Y and F. So

15:19

young farmers groups. Talking about

15:21

them being the new toxic rugby

15:24

lads. Men treating women

15:26

like toys. Sexual assault was

15:28

commonplace. Really diving into a

15:30

part of society we just don't

15:32

talk about normally, Alice. But I

15:34

have... Although I wasn't a young farmer myself, lots

15:37

of members of my family were and are.

15:39

I think my parents might have even met

15:41

at the young farmers. So I'm

15:44

very much aware of them

15:46

as a thing. But fascinating insights are

15:48

part of society we don't ever talk about. Yeah,

15:50

and actually what's really important for the young farmers

15:52

is they do need some social life. And it's incredibly

15:54

important for them to get together and have a good

15:56

time. What Abby Kay has done, and she's a really

15:58

good journalist. she has gone

16:01

there, she's looked at it and she's realized that it's

16:03

become very, very toxic. It probably always was quite

16:06

toxic. But now, I mean, the amount of alcohol

16:08

that's being consumed and the way the men are

16:10

treating the women and some of

16:12

the slogans on the T-shirt, I'm not even

16:15

going to say, they're just so wrong and

16:17

really abusive to women and almost,

16:20

I mean, they're almost condoning rape.

16:23

So she's been right to call it out. I

16:25

think what's difficult for her, she works for Farmers

16:27

Weekly, she's very pro farmer. So I think she

16:29

probably had to think very hard before she did

16:31

this because she'll get a lot of flack for

16:33

it. Really

16:36

brave, really brave thing for her to do.

16:38

I mean, brave because, yeah, you say you're

16:40

going to sort of proceed to be going

16:42

against your tribe, your social group. Although

16:45

obviously, she's not doing that. She's doing something which is

16:47

that needs to be done. And in the long run,

16:49

it should be of benefit to them. They

16:52

probably don't see that way at the moment. What you hope is

16:54

in the long run, more women will join farming that actually

16:56

it'll be cleared up and they will think this

16:58

is somewhere I can go. I can be a

17:00

shepherdess, I can go and run a

17:03

farm. It's such a male

17:05

dominated industry. I mean, you and I know, but in

17:07

the West Country, it's a lot more men down there,

17:09

isn't it? And it's very tribal. But it's

17:11

sort of, in a way, I think the Young Farmers Clubs,

17:13

which is, I don't know what the age you can join

17:15

them, is it sort of 13 or 14? Some of them

17:17

are under age and then it sort of goes to the

17:19

mid 20s. And for a lot

17:21

of them, it is essentially the alternative to university or

17:25

the precursor to going to university.

17:27

And it's group activities, but drink

17:29

plays a massive part in that.

17:33

And in many ways, it's the

17:35

first interactions. And if the club

17:37

has a culture of misogyny and

17:40

heavy drink. Yeah. You're

17:42

not drunk when you put your t-shirt on to go out

17:44

there, are you? And your t-shirt is saying, I mean, I

17:46

oversaw some of them in the paper there. I

17:49

Thought, you know, there's a sort of suggestive

17:51

ones that you might see being sold at

17:53

the seaside. But Then they have a bit

17:55

more than that. You Know, like you say,

17:57

through condoning. Right. Yeah. There is a wider

17:59

problem in society. That you them I was

18:01

just a made it. This is focusing on young

18:03

farmers. I'm sure maybe that's more extreme because that

18:05

needed drink or isolation or whatever but there is

18:07

wider problem which I know from my daughter is

18:10

twenty five young men and got. We

18:12

think that they've got serious issues with

18:14

with massaging the and sexism which is

18:16

kind of money back with a vengeance.

18:18

You think these things in might mistake

18:21

of thinking these things all improving in

18:23

a linear fashion and then they're not.

18:25

was partly because sort of it will

18:27

identical know not a newspaper features all

18:29

about avocado eating. Esteem is want young

18:31

people drinking anymore and in like the

18:33

idea is that was the city I

18:35

haven't. Seen way sports clubs, the exactly a lot

18:37

of the universe is a very lightly young farmers. I

18:40

am of them that they have industry airline right?

18:42

Yeah. They all behave really bad little getting really

18:44

drunk, and it's it's it. Had around for nothing.

18:46

Still answer. To say that no one in young drinks

18:48

and will. That's not true. I mean I yeah

18:51

but there's a difference as a shift

18:53

in attitude and and there. And it's

18:55

not just his.is young male farmers? it's

18:57

a young men everywhere I've got. I

18:59

mean that Sigma can talk to women

19:01

and and behave towards women in a

19:03

way that would be would uphold in

19:05

a car, generation out of my generation

19:07

ah and ones in between but it

19:09

definitely is well worth having read of

19:11

a be a substance go to the

19:13

top soccer the topic of a com

19:15

opposed to they are Abby Case pace

19:17

as is tempted to completely out. It's

19:19

sad. Yeah is it's alarming but generally

19:21

well worth your time to wastes right?

19:23

let's set of attention now to size

19:25

hustles va but you've you've I'm outside

19:27

houses apart. You try to sell small

19:29

clothes which will enough yes has what

19:31

the youngsters a similar two thirds of

19:33

under thirty four items that foils of

19:35

an hour. The second am stream also

19:37

amongst people might like a quarter so

19:39

I thought I should try to develop

19:41

in the haven't had the same job

19:43

by see do the same thing in

19:45

the same place a thirty three years

19:47

yes I thought maybe it's time to

19:49

diversify. Our portfolio and one of the

19:52

things you suggested was becoming a. tall

19:54

glass what my yeah that's what i can sort of a

19:56

family they for that would be my up my street the

19:58

kind of do the etti white house by I'm not

20:00

sure there's a market for it because I tend

20:02

to do it to people, I approach people, I

20:05

mean I do try and sort of talk to people on the

20:07

bus and stuff with interesting

20:09

local history facts and then seldom

20:11

interested. Give us a... Well

20:15

I believe there might be a market but just not the

20:17

people on who might. I live on your tour. I

20:19

live in the East End of London and they're

20:21

already, what you've got there, you've already got Jack

20:24

the Ripper tour and I don't really, I mean

20:26

that's all taken care of and I just think

20:28

it's a bit macabre anyway and you've got kind

20:30

of Craig, kind of Blind Beggar, Hippocrates, Where the

20:32

Crazes did this, that and the other tours. But

20:36

I think you've got Karl Marx kind of walking tours

20:38

as well. Some royal stuff. There's a bit of royal

20:40

stuff. So I think I'd maybe take, encompass all of

20:42

those. I mean there's a, where I live in Hackney,

20:44

there's a lot of kind of particularly sort of non-conformist

20:46

radical history. There were some of the King Charles I

20:49

regicides were hanging about there. Elizabeth

20:51

Fry was there, the reformer, prisoner for. And

20:55

Daniel Defoe and all that, apart because you weren't, sort

20:57

of they all kind of stuck together. So

21:00

I think there might be a market for

21:02

that. But what people are really interested in is hipsters

21:04

moving into Hackney. What they really love is

21:07

tales of the old days when it was

21:09

really rough and semi-criminal. And you

21:11

can remember those. And I can remember those days

21:13

and they love all that because then that kind

21:15

of gives them that edgy thing which they think

21:17

they're kind of buying together. He's in there with

21:20

his t-shirt. Yeah, it's now quite safe but it

21:22

is. Well let's see if we can develop this.

21:24

We've got someone to give you some advice. Peter

21:26

Hofford is a London tour guide based

21:28

in South East London. Hello Peter. Hello.

21:31

Hello Peter. So Peter, you

21:33

were a barrister and now you do tours. So

21:35

how do you get into it? Is there a

21:37

market for Roberts, it used to be right rough

21:39

around here, tour? Well

21:42

he sounds like he's got all the right instincts

21:44

and like people and you're

21:46

very interested in your own

21:49

special district. I mean I'm

21:51

the kind of guy who would go past statues and

21:53

I was actually to tell people about them. Long

21:56

before I was a tour guide, I'm used to addressing groups

21:58

of people. people

22:00

particularly 12. It's great

22:02

fun. I would highly

22:05

recommend it if you

22:07

like people, particularly

22:09

if you like meeting people from all over different

22:11

parts of the world and obviously

22:14

you make them feel welcome by asking

22:16

a bit about their background. I would

22:18

highly recommend it. We had a wonderful course. Is there

22:20

any money in it Peter? Yeah,

22:23

sorry. Is there any money in it? Because I know I agree with everything

22:26

you say. I could do it. Sometimes

22:28

you could be working for companies that

22:30

will pay you reasonably well. Sometimes

22:33

it's not massively well

22:35

paid. But I wouldn't

22:37

go into it for supporting your wife.

22:40

Peter, you're a tired barrister so let's put some pounds

22:43

of pencil. What's a good day on the

22:46

tour circuit look like? A

22:48

good day on the tour circuit is

22:50

you say you have a couple

22:53

of nice tours that you enjoy doing

22:55

different areas possibly. But how much money

22:57

are you making? Oh

23:00

how vulgar. You could be bringing about

23:03

300 quid for that. That's

23:07

a lot. For the day? Because

23:09

we were told it was useless. You'd never earn

23:11

any money. It's to be proved that's wrong with

23:13

my experience. And you'll get fit as well, won't

23:16

you? Yeah, the problem is I do

23:18

have a full-time job here. But I'd have to go...

23:20

They wouldn't miss you for coming out. Yeah, that's a

23:22

go and say, oh I'm just going off to do

23:24

a bit of box popping on the election. Yeah. Yeah.

23:27

Yeah. I'm not going to read that.

23:29

I'm not going to be right to the times there. Peter. Yes.

23:32

Yes. Well, I just want to congratulate

23:34

you on your article. I won't say any more about it today.

23:36

But I thought it was very good this morning. I just really...

23:39

Oh, are you a NIDEM person? Well,

23:41

I am speaking for the National Liberal Club so... Peter,

23:46

what's your favourite fact when you are doing your

23:48

tours? What's your one big fact? Oh,

23:51

my one big fact is that

23:53

Queen Victoria's Memorial, where there's this

23:55

grand splendid memorial and we tell

23:57

them that when one of the

23:59

scouts... and

24:02

she always looks a bit like Harold Wilson as

24:04

well. And

24:06

it took them forever to get a proper match, to get the

24:08

nose back. You could

24:10

still in some light see it's a false nose

24:13

or an extra. She had a nose job. There

24:15

we are. Peter, thank you very much for that.

24:17

Peter Hofford there, London tour guys. It's worth a

24:20

go though. All cash as well, you went after the clarity.

24:24

Yeah, maybe get some tips as well. Robert

24:26

Cramson, Alice Thompson, of course you can read them both in

24:28

the Times every week. With your

24:30

subscription at the times.co.uk. Up

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next, it's the latest debate in B.A.T.

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are committed to a common go. To.

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Protect our home, Or. This

26:10

Now where have you get your podcasts? Ah,

26:21

The same. Author:

26:28

Oh

26:30

yeah,

26:34

I think not. Politics

26:36

and Co.cross ha ha

26:38

ha ha. I hope

26:40

my shoulder had. Ah,

26:44

Harrys saves him in this other time see

26:46

political cover that how It's a good us

26:48

when we thought we'd go for some non

26:50

nonpartisan introduction sort of Peter Dixon survey for

26:52

the acceptable he's been with us before my

26:55

best homes if he came back as well

26:57

as far as our socks off the lot

26:59

to seen him in the debate los the

27:01

Hum deeds it before we we will build

27:03

pick our way through some of the cake

27:06

stages of minutes d Things. Easier.

27:08

Them have the X Factor. I

27:12

think. That. The Tories been doctors a

27:14

much happier than the later ones. I

27:17

think risky sooner won't surprise people in

27:19

being sought the overly aggressive and slightly

27:22

snippy births. In terms of London, these

27:24

messages is a much better job than

27:26

Kissed Armor and I think labour would

27:28

have hoped. Stomata and up and looked

27:30

prime ministerial composed and ah and gave

27:33

as good as he got in a

27:35

sort of com and a grownup were

27:37

made seen that look a bit silly

27:39

in there were moments I'm afraid was

27:42

overlooked, properly flustered. It. Wasn't quite clear whether

27:44

he was shocked that scenic was coming at

27:46

him with these attacks. but

27:49

he looked tons of he didn't know

27:51

what scientists found a little bit frightened

27:53

and i think people who were hoping

27:55

this guy appears to be stampeding towards

27:57

a massive election win would

28:00

have looked a little bit more composed

28:02

under fire. It may be that

28:06

in the subsequent debates he's better prepared.

28:08

The most staggering thing I've heard in

28:11

the last 24 hours is that Keir Snalmers spent

28:13

a lot of yesterday afternoon on his own in

28:16

a hotel room and he likes to prepare that

28:18

way. He doesn't want people in his

28:20

ear telling him what to say. And then,

28:22

Rishi Sunak, I can only presume, was in

28:24

a proper debate camp with people giving him

28:27

the lines that he needed to land and

28:29

telling him how to respond because Snalmers

28:33

frankly looked underprepared. He was so

28:35

interested in giving him good lines

28:39

but they weren't the sum of their

28:41

parts. Rishi Sunak had one line, the

28:43

£2000 line, which we'll come to. He just hammered away.

28:45

What do you want people to remember at the end

28:47

of this? And today we're

28:49

having a big row about that £2000 tax line

28:51

and of course Labour have some response to it

28:53

but we saw very little of that from Snalmers

28:55

in the first 45 minutes of the

28:57

debate. And what you also do

28:59

in a debate camp is you prepare for the format.

29:02

And I don't think Snalmers was quite ready for the fact

29:04

that most of the opening

29:06

comments were

29:08

quite short and the comebacks were even shorter and

29:10

he's wasted a lot of time sort of flannelling

29:13

around. And really, where was the

29:15

25 second clip? So

29:18

broadly the overview is Stalmer

29:20

landed quite successfully. We've

29:22

had 14 years of this government and it's not been

29:24

a success and Sunak landed

29:26

fairly successfully. Yeah, but what are you going to

29:28

do about it? And

29:31

where was the constant clips of we've had 14

29:33

years of this? We've

29:35

got sewage in the rivers, we've got trains that

29:37

don't work, the NHS has got problems, blah blah

29:39

blah and just sort of a, you

29:41

know, like you would expect for the concluding answer at Prime

29:43

Minister's question time. A top of real life shopping list. OK,

29:46

let's dive in next. We've got lots of clips to get

29:48

through. This one will kick off with

29:50

the first question. Why not as we would do if

29:52

we're doing PMQs. But asking the

29:54

question was a woman called Paula who

29:57

felt that the Prime Minister did not

29:59

understand the... cost of living crisis. The

30:01

plan is working of course I know

30:03

everyone is only just starting to feel

30:06

the benefits of it but inflation is

30:08

back to normal wages are growing taxes

30:10

are now being cut. Keir Starmer would

30:12

put all that progress at risk he

30:14

would put up everyone's taxes by two

30:16

thousand pounds two thousand pounds in higher

30:18

taxes for every working family in our

30:20

country after all the hard work and

30:22

sacrifice we've been through that's not the

30:24

right course of action I don't know

30:26

why you want to put up people's

30:28

taxes. Keir Starmer I just don't know

30:30

how you feel when you

30:32

hear a Prime Minister say having heard what

30:34

you're going through but the plan is working

30:37

it's all right I meet so many people

30:39

who are struggling with their bills and the

30:41

Prime Minister just keeps saying he lives in

30:43

a different world but Keir Starmer if people

30:46

are struggling with their bills why do you

30:48

want to make it harder for them by

30:50

saddling them with two thousand pounds worth of

30:52

higher taxes how is that going to make

30:54

Paula or anyone's life easier? Could you respond

30:57

directly to Rishi Sunak? This is the Prime

30:59

Minister who's been part of a government that

31:01

has put up tax twenty six

31:03

times. So there we

31:05

are that was and that was essentially

31:07

the tone of the whole thing. It was

31:09

and actually you know we've been sort of

31:11

more complimentary of Sunak that was probably I

31:14

thought one of Sunak's worst moments right at

31:16

the beginning there was almost no empathy again

31:18

from the PM for people who have got

31:20

problems with the cost of living Starmer did

31:22

that very well in that but was immediately

31:24

on the back foot and I think I

31:28

mean various people have tallied up how many times

31:30

Sunak did this two thousand pound attack line some

31:32

say it's 13 others and it was near a

31:34

20 but I can't say I've gone back through

31:37

the whole thing myself but that was

31:39

right at the top of the show and

31:42

Starmer only got properly into

31:44

this is garbage 45 minutes

31:46

later and you

31:49

know it has allowed the Tories to frame the

31:51

debate a little bit and probably for the next

31:53

48 hours. So

31:56

that was the exchange on tax the first

31:58

question then the NHS. There's

32:00

an audio member called Janet asking,

32:03

there's this like flaw in the format, we've

32:05

only got 45 seconds to respond. Janet

32:08

asked both men how they'd fix

32:10

the National Health Service. As

32:12

Janet knows and everyone knows, the NHS is still

32:14

recovering from COVID. We went through the best part

32:16

of two years where the NHS couldn't conduct all

32:19

the treatments it normally would and it is going

32:21

to take time to recover from that. But we

32:23

are now making progress, the waiting lists are coming

32:25

down. But what Kirstarmer didn't mention to you, which

32:28

you did, Julie. 7.2

32:30

million, they're now 7.5 million, he says they're coming down

32:32

and the guy's not as good at maths. Yeah, they

32:35

are now coming down. They are now coming down. 7.2

32:37

when you said you'd get them down, 7.2 million, they're now 7.5 million.

32:41

I'd like you to explain how they're coming down. Because

32:43

they were coming down from where they were when they

32:45

were hired. And they're now on their way down. They

32:48

are down. Yes,

32:50

because the NHS was impacted by industrial action. And

32:53

if it wasn't for that, a

32:55

million point would have been saved. Somebody else's fault.

32:58

That was probably Kirstarmer's best debating

33:00

moment, wasn't it? Yeah, and you never

33:02

want to hear laughter. Laughter followed by

33:04

a groan. Yeah, really cool

33:06

from the audience there. I

33:08

don't know if we're going on to do the doctor's strike,

33:10

but Sunak hit back pretty

33:13

quickly and put Starmer on the back foot.

33:16

But yeah, that was not great. I mean,

33:18

both of them are correct. Waiting

33:21

lists are still higher than they were when Sunak took

33:23

power. But they have been coming down for

33:25

several months. And the

33:27

point that which is Sunak made was

33:29

that he argued some of the

33:31

problems and they're sort of both rights. It

33:34

depends on where you start counting. They

33:36

are down from where they were, the waiting

33:40

lists, but they're still not down as low as they

33:42

were when he first thing. And this is the point

33:44

about what Sunak set himself up for by coming

33:46

up with these five goals that

33:48

he was going to set himself. I think the

33:51

public do accept that Covid was a, you know,

33:53

this was a major event in all our lives.

33:55

We all remember what it was like. We know

33:57

that that has impacted the NHS. That's a perfectly

33:59

reasonable. When the when you as prime minister

34:01

set yourself up with a debating point of

34:03

i'm gonna get the waiting lists and and

34:06

at you can only say that they started

34:08

to come down off the game back up

34:10

a bit and that at it and set

34:12

yourself up for that for you arguing that

34:14

off his down and is as a tricky

34:16

but he blames the judy.to stop those are

34:18

the key issues still unresolved that it gone

34:20

stuck again and couple of weeks. It's the

34:22

alien as I don't demanding thirty five hundred

34:24

still demanding thirty five percent pay rises had

34:26

this ah is what both them how to

34:28

save other. And will have announced

34:30

that will pay rises but everyone in the

34:33

Nhl except for that in the Delta and

34:35

of course I wanted a that's her choice

34:37

fast and affordable dies but the despite being

34:39

offered the most generous pay settlements. Anywhere,

34:41

In the Nhs added a the public sector

34:44

viewed in a demanding a thirty five percent

34:46

pay rise on I don't want to raise

34:48

your taxes to pay for that so I

34:50

don't think it's right, but I will say

34:52

that's. Twenty

34:54

hours. As a result of it he has an

34:56

expense you How much of the that cast on

34:59

the phone We wouldn't paid thirty five percent. We've

35:01

already said that so the doctors we can't afford

35:03

it because the bomb It's already broken the eponymous

35:05

or other medicines that now coffee afford it's so

35:07

we're not going to play that's what you call

35:09

do with what the prime minister was dance which

35:11

is to realize that you to resolve it said

35:13

what would you do but the end of the

35:15

the I'm not going to give them the thirty

35:17

five percent pay rise that they're asking for. so

35:20

how would you with a little bit on standing

35:22

there and saying. All resolve. It isn't

35:24

an answer, not a plan. Promise: How

35:26

would you resolve it? Promised that Euro

35:28

thought. His own know how would

35:30

you resolve it. You want to be prime

35:32

minister, how would you result? The strong see

35:34

a little, how would you with allows you

35:36

not the most a cyber. This process crosses

35:38

economy when reaching for the list of things.

35:40

Very devastation that I mean it was interesting.

35:42

The. Potential. Customers I

35:45

wish to next I phone customers best members

35:47

that amelie followed by be seen as as

35:49

yeah exactly and this was some that. Were.

35:52

Was the on the radio. but there was a

35:54

moment during the exchange with Storm. A Con: A

35:56

closed his eyes. much more than a blink. He

35:58

looks sort of properly like. I don't really

36:00

know quite how to comment this. And I think

36:03

the wider significance of this is that

36:06

on a range of subjects, I

36:08

think this is one, I think

36:10

probably doing business with the EU,

36:13

dealing with immigration. On all

36:15

of these, Labour genuinely believes that

36:18

if they turn up and be Labour rather than

36:20

the Tories and be nice, they'll be

36:22

able to get things done. And

36:25

I think that's something that is open to

36:27

challenge. And I think the upshot

36:29

of this debate, given

36:32

that the polls are suggesting Labour is on for

36:34

a big old win, I think

36:36

it will cause people to focus a little bit more on what

36:38

they're actually going to do. And I think in a range of

36:40

areas, they haven't said that much. And some

36:42

of it appears to be a bit wishful thinking. And

36:47

I mean, crucially, I mean, to some extent, the way

36:49

that we should soon have was challenging and was almost

36:51

saying, look, you're going to be Prime Minister. So

36:53

what are you going to do? And they

36:55

do not have an answer to that. No, they don't. And

36:58

I mean, the same came up a little

37:00

bit on the legal immigration later. These

37:04

were the moments where Stalmer didn't really

37:06

seem to know where he was

37:08

coming from. Well, in fact, let's move on to the conversation

37:11

of legal immigration. Obviously, it's sort of

37:13

slightly more up in people's minds because

37:16

of Nigel Farage. Probably the

37:18

biggest, we thought that this was going to be the debate, it's

37:20

going to be the biggest event this week in terms of the

37:22

election campaign. But this

37:25

was both, which is

37:27

like in case something insisting they both really

37:29

did have a plan to

37:31

tackle illegal immigration. We do need to

37:33

smash the gangs. Keir Stalmer voted against

37:35

those laws. So as ever,

37:38

you say one thing here, but

37:40

your track record says something completely

37:42

different. And you can't. Let's tackle

37:44

immigration. So why are the numbers?

37:46

Why are the numbers this year 10,000

37:48

record numbers? Why

37:50

is that? Because this is on your lunch.

37:52

This is a growing challenge, but I've got a plan

37:54

to deal with it. I'm going to put people on

37:56

planes. What are you going to do with them? I

37:58

can tell everyone what I'm going to do. to do? You might not

38:01

like it, but I've got a plan because we've got

38:03

to have a deterrent. What are you going to do?

38:05

Just tell everybody. What are you going to do with

38:07

a legal migrant to arrive? Mr.

38:09

Speaker, please can we just, please gentlemen, we

38:12

will lower our voices. Kierstama,

38:14

please respond directly to what she's doing. There's

38:16

a pattern of behaviour here. He

38:18

said he would get waiting lists down, they've gone up.

38:21

He said he would stop the boats. We've

38:23

got record numbers coming. The promises he'd make

38:25

are not worth the paper they're written on.

38:27

His plan is failing. We do have to

38:29

deal with this problem, Steven. We absolutely have

38:31

to deal with it. We have to smash

38:34

the gangs that are doing it. I will

38:36

never accept that the only criminal gangs that

38:38

can't be taken down are these vile gangs.

38:41

I mean, just sum up essentially the hour around

38:44

10 minutes of it all was

38:46

Kierstama saying, nothing

38:49

you've done is worked. Oh, now pick the

38:51

topic, you've got a failed record. And him

38:53

saying, well, what would you do? They're not

38:55

really being an answer. That's it. That's absolutely

38:58

it. And I think, you

39:00

know, some voters will have

39:02

tuned in with a very strong view

39:04

about which person they liked. And most

39:06

of the polling that came afterwards suggests they haven't

39:08

really changed their minds very much. I

39:10

mean, the snap poll afterwards had

39:14

had Sunak winning 51 49. You've

39:17

got one but there's been others. There have been others.

39:19

Savanta, I think, said that had it the other way

39:21

around. I mean, assuming the

39:24

default position was Sunak 20 points

39:26

behind because that's kind of where we are.

39:28

And that's a reasonable outcome for the Prime

39:30

Minister. But if you look at the drill

39:32

down into the details, even in the Ugov

39:35

snap poll, you know, I think on, you

39:38

know, who's sounds like

39:40

they care or whatever, Sunak was miles and

39:43

miles behind. He was marginally ahead on who

39:45

looks like the better Prime Minister. And, you

39:47

know, I think the upshot is that a

39:49

lot of people conclude that Sunak

39:51

looked more like the Prime Minister, but they don't like him very much.

39:53

And I don't think arguably

39:55

anything he did last night is going to change that very much. But

39:58

what it does is he's going to be a very good person. does

40:00

do is cast a new light a little bit

40:02

on Stalmer who we all expect to win and

40:04

I think there are perhaps a few more question

40:06

marks about his readiness and about Labour's

40:09

readiness than we perhaps had 24 hours

40:11

ago. Yeah, I think if

40:13

your starting point was like you just landed from Mars

40:15

and these two people were starting from the

40:18

same place and who won and that's

40:20

one thing. Ultimately, Rishi Sunak can

40:22

read the polls like the rest of us. It

40:25

looks like Labour are going to win Stalmer's

40:30

reputation in front of the best part of 5

40:32

million people and he probably did do that albeit

40:35

that's not going to stop him becoming Prime Minister.

40:37

No, I mean what it might do is if

40:39

there were Tory MPs who were thinking I might

40:41

just defect to reform and run for them then

40:44

maybe. In fact, we've had

40:46

news of one of those today.

40:48

Tom Hunt, who's the

40:51

conservative, Walter concerned can't be for it, which

40:53

is standing again, has confirmed he is going

40:55

to stand for the toys. He's not defected

40:57

to reform and overnight, the large huddle balloon

41:00

couple days ago, clearly

41:02

lots of them had started. I think there were some

41:04

that were thinking about it and it may be that

41:06

they look at that and think actually I'll stick with

41:08

it. And if you

41:10

look at the other significant number

41:13

in that polling, it was very, very divided

41:15

on party lines. I mean, it was about

41:17

85-15. So

41:19

if your Labour's party thought Stalmer won it, Tory voters from 2019, 85% of them

41:28

thought Sunak won that debate and actually

41:30

that's what they're going after. That's who

41:32

they're targeting and if that has shored

41:34

up a bit of support and maybe

41:36

peeled some off of reform, I suspect

41:38

the first polls that will show reform

41:40

getting a bounce off Farage's announcement and

41:42

that may end up being the big

41:44

story the week after all and it

41:46

may not be the debate at all.

41:48

But I think my sense

41:50

from Tory Towers last night was that

41:53

they feel like this is a

41:55

key bit of firewall that stops the bleeding a little

41:57

bit. for

42:00

a moment and talk about the fact that ITV,

42:02

who hosted the debate last night, after

42:05

Richard Sinnack and Keir Starmer were tucked

42:07

up in bed, they

42:09

sat down and did a one-on-one interview. They're actually

42:11

very good with Anushka Starmer from ITV interviewing the

42:13

leaders of some of the other parties to

42:17

get their take

42:19

and give them some air time. So let's

42:21

kick off. This is Ed David for the Lib

42:23

Dems talking about how he's motivated by the possibility

42:25

of a Tory defeat. In this

42:28

election I'm focused in on liberal

42:30

democratic policies and I said

42:32

when I became leader of the party that my

42:34

job was to get rid of as many Conservative

42:36

MPs as possible. They have ruined our country and

42:38

I'm quite angry actually and I think lots of

42:41

voters are. What's really interesting in this election, I've

42:43

never seen it before in my 30 years in

42:45

politics. So you would like to work with Keir

42:47

Starmer to get rid of the Tories? I am

42:49

focusing on defeating Conservative MPs in this election. So

42:53

interesting this Lib Dems strategy because I hate

42:55

the Tories. I hate them. I hated them when

42:58

I was in government with them for five years.

43:03

I wouldn't do a deal with them. I'm not going to

43:05

go near them. No, no, no. I mean absolutely Keir. What

43:07

about Labour? No, I will not do a deal with the

43:09

Tories. That's his

43:12

position. Well he's right. I mean

43:14

the vast bulk of the seats

43:16

they're targeting are against the Conservatives

43:18

and you don't need a

43:20

coalition. The best help that the Lib Dems can

43:22

give the Labour Party is just to take a

43:24

load of Tory seats and most of these MLPs

43:26

suggest that they're going to go from a couple

43:30

of handfuls to sort of something

43:32

that begins with a four or if they're

43:35

very optimistic of five. And

43:37

in some of these MLP polls, which there's a long way

43:39

to go yet, suggesting that the Tories

43:41

and the Lib Dems might not be that far apart.

43:44

Well potentially, I mean the big thing for the

43:46

Lib Dems is not actually where they land relative

43:48

to the Tories. It's where they land relative to

43:51

the SNP and recent MLPs, I think the big

43:53

Ugov one had the SNP on 19 and

43:55

I think the Lib Dems on 48

43:58

if I remember rightly. And

44:00

that's a big deal for them. That makes

44:02

you the third largest party in parliament again

44:04

It means that David gets a question every

44:06

single week two questions at prime minister's question

44:08

time instead of once every three weeks Means

44:11

they get more short money Which

44:14

will you know obviously eases their financial burdens

44:16

and that's a really big deal for them

44:18

And that's basically how your paddy ash towns

44:20

your charles kendall's your nick legs became Better

44:23

known to the public because there were pmq's and all

44:25

that in fact you mentioned the smp. Let's jump ahead

44:28

actually to The smp

44:30

leader steven flinn the smp leader in west

44:32

mid today's Uh, and

44:34

he was asked what he'd want in order

44:36

to enter a coalition if there was a

44:38

hung parliament What he'd need

44:40

uh need to consider a coalition with the labor

44:42

party So what i've outlined there is

44:44

is quite clear now I've had in the

44:46

recent days proposed that a bill to prevent

44:49

any privatization Of the nhs the

44:51

labor party were outraged at the very concept if

44:53

they wanted to back that that would be most

44:55

welcome We'd also want to see a rejection of

44:57

the 18 billion pounds worth of public sector cuts

44:59

are coming down the line So that scotland's public

45:01

services can be funded properly. We want to see

45:03

uh rejoining of the european single market We want

45:05

those discussions to happen He

45:09

may leave disappointed My

45:11

conclusion to all three of those but it's a

45:13

bit early for the uh 24 hours to save

45:15

the nhs We must pass a bill to prevent

45:17

the privatization of something that no one is planning

45:19

to privatize Well, no one's planning to privatize it

45:21

I think i think we're streaking for labor's plan

45:23

is to uh use some private providers It'll still

45:25

remain free at the point of use but it's

45:27

a case of buying the uh

45:29

the capacity where you can. Um, so you

45:32

know I'm always

45:34

liable to get myself into trouble on the

45:36

nhs. Um, it's uh, one of those

45:39

things that you know You wouldn't

45:41

start from here. Um, but it seems almost impossible

45:43

to do anything And one of the reasons is

45:45

because people like to stand up and say we

45:48

can't possibly privatize any of it Even

45:51

uber socialist france has managed to have a

45:53

million people on waiting lists. Yeah, we must

45:55

enshine in law Yes, keep it as it

45:57

is. Right, uh, let's jump now that

45:59

You were talking about Nigel Farage, the big

46:01

story of the week was Nigel Farage re-appointing

46:03

himself as leader of Reform UK. The business,

46:06

sure he didn't do it himself did he?

46:08

Well he owns it. He does own it.

46:10

Yes, this is worth repeating. Yes, Reform UK

46:12

is a business owned by Nigel Farage. And

46:15

he let Richard Tice play with it and now

46:17

he's taken it back. But

46:19

he did let Richard Tice do the interview

46:21

last night with the Minister of Centre on

46:23

ITV where he taught he'd be surprised to

46:26

know about immigration. We want to freeze

46:28

lawful immigration with the exception of healthcare.

46:30

But let's remember we've got 5.2 million

46:32

people, one in eight of the working

46:34

age population, on how to work benefits.

46:36

British citizens we need to get those

46:38

people as many as possible back into

46:40

work. We've got to help businesses, it

46:42

motivates businesses... For those people into the

46:44

NHS and into the care sector. We've

46:46

got to skill up and train our

46:48

own people. That takes time. Of course

46:50

it does. These are urgent

46:52

sectors that need jobs now. In the

46:55

1980s and 1990s we

46:57

were training up our own

46:59

people, our own young people straight out

47:01

of school into wards, into

47:04

universities. Why don't we freeze the

47:06

training caps on training hospitals,

47:09

training doctors and nurses. This is

47:11

madness. We've got to focus on

47:13

our own people. And

47:16

that's a message that will land right? Sounds like

47:18

he's very supportive of the Conservative Party's workforce plan

47:20

to ensure a street level. And also

47:22

the Labour Party's big announcement. They had one first

47:24

in fact. Both main parties have a

47:26

workforce plan now. Trained people up. It's

47:30

interesting that all the messages we're getting in now are

47:33

people declaring that various people blew various people out of

47:35

the water. Yes I'm sure. As I said, 85% of

47:37

people stuck with their own side as a result of

47:39

that. You'd

47:44

be more worried about where the 15% went. For

47:46

the sake of completeness, ITV also

47:49

spoke to the Green Party's co-leader

47:51

Adrian Ramsey. the

48:00

climate and nature crises, the defining issues

48:02

of our time and on creating

48:04

a more equal society. Where is your influence

48:06

in what is that? All the polls suggest

48:08

we're on track for a Labour government. The

48:11

question is, do we want Keir Starmer to

48:13

have such a big majority that he can

48:15

continue to make U-turns all the time on

48:17

climate or on funding for public services? If

48:19

there's a group of Green MPs in Parliament

48:21

and we're standing a record number of candidates

48:23

in this election... And

48:27

if you've got the Lib

48:29

Dems, the Greens, even the SNP all saying, look,

48:31

he's going to win. Don't

48:33

give him a big majority. That's what a lot of people did in

48:35

2017. Correct. And that's

48:38

what cost Theresa May, David Cameron's

48:40

majority. And this is an interesting

48:42

area. This is the one

48:44

danger for Labour with all these big M-R-Ps

48:46

saying it's an absolute wipeout. And

48:48

the Tories I know are going to

48:50

be... They're either already doing on their

48:53

sort of targeted social media

48:55

stuff or certainly are planning to blitz on

48:57

this. And they, I

48:59

think, are hopeful of holding some seats against

49:01

the Lib Dem yellow tide

49:03

in the south by sort of saying, look

49:06

at this Starmer fellow. He wasn't terribly good in that

49:08

debate. He doesn't really know

49:10

what he's going to do. Can you really trust him? You

49:13

might not like us anymore. But for

49:15

goodness sake, don't give him a massive

49:18

three-figure majority to play with. I mean, I

49:20

know of several Labour

49:23

MPs in 2017 said, Theresa

49:25

May's going to win. I don't like

49:27

Jeremy Corbyn. You can vote for me locally because

49:29

you know I'm a good hardworking person. Exactly. And

49:32

you can imagine exactly the same thing happening right now. Just

49:34

funny, Tim, your take on the £2,000 row,

49:37

people have been messaging in saying, why haven't you talked

49:39

about the treasury letter? I'll sort of leave it to

49:41

the end. So, Rishi Sunak, explain

49:44

how they get to the £2,000 figure first. Well,

49:47

look, they have thrown in, as I understand it,

49:49

a range of things that they claim the Labour

49:52

Party is going to do. Some

49:54

of those things have been costed by

49:56

treasury civil servants. Some of them

49:58

have been costed by... A

50:00

conservative Special Advisers and the total

50:03

number has obviously been put together

50:05

in Tory Hq. So they have

50:07

some grounds saying that some of

50:09

these of official costings because and

50:11

the policies that kind of was

50:13

floating around before the election clearly

50:15

it's legitimate for treasury civil servants

50:17

solicit those. There were other things

50:20

that that they've thrown in a

50:22

never some things that Labour says

50:24

they are claiming we will do

50:26

that we will not do and

50:28

which would have been sensible. Of

50:30

storm was a point out almost immediately when

50:32

this number was right as a what they

50:34

said has taken a what they say ah

50:36

thirty eight and a half billion pounds of

50:38

spending commitments, labor disputes that they have a

50:40

committed all those without specific s either four

50:43

years. He then divide that by the numbers

50:45

how live and of hassles which is going

50:47

to two thousand so that number is booked

50:49

put together in the same way that George

50:51

Osborne put together a number during the referendum

50:53

campaign which was to say this will be

50:55

the comes to break sit and the average

50:57

cost to foster family would be four thousand

50:59

Three hundred. Pounds at not mean that that's

51:01

on the will lose four thousand two hundred

51:03

pounds at the time it was set up

51:06

number was just as bonuses and three hundred

51:08

and fifty million on the side of the

51:10

vote leave busts am but it's brought together

51:12

in the same way. It's a test. It's

51:14

a kind of it's an attack line arms

51:17

and legs not as labor doing the same

51:19

thing in reverse I totally forgot about. Like

51:21

funny how some scepticism about said this is

51:23

the game but what it says his two

51:26

things one and this is gonna be an

51:28

election were lots of promises are going to

51:30

be made and everyone's privately knowledge is there

51:32

isn't much money am and there is it.

51:34

Legitimate question about how you raise the money

51:37

and neither party that wants to talk about

51:39

the sad part of the game is to

51:41

get the other side to look more shifty.

51:43

The new votes at on where the money's

51:46

coming from am. The. Other part of

51:48

this is that it's. It's. A

51:50

strategy. It's a thing designed to put pressure on

51:52

the other lot and see how they respond. And

51:54

I think. Labour

51:57

are effectively. Kind.

51:59

of fighting on the detail, but the

52:01

existential point that Keir Starmer may have to

52:03

raise taxes and doesn't want to talk about

52:06

that is a legitimate one. And

52:08

when he was put under pressure on it, he

52:10

didn't exactly knock it out of the park in

52:13

response. And obviously now there's a row and the

52:15

Treasury have put out a letter in response to

52:17

Labour's Darren Jones, the most

52:20

in his civil servant, the Treasury has

52:22

said, costing survived from other sources or

52:24

produced by other organisations should not be

52:26

presented having been produced by the civil

52:29

service. I've reminded ministers and advisers this

52:31

should not be the case. Labour

52:33

now demanding an apology from which he said, the problem is it's

52:35

turned into the bus. But also now

52:37

talking about Labour's £2,000 tax charge. Exactly. You

52:39

look back eight years and Dominic Cummings quite deliberately stuck that

52:42

number on the side of the bus so there could be

52:44

a row about it. And

52:46

what do people take away from this? Do

52:48

some people take away from it that the

52:50

government has been fast and loose with the

52:52

figures or do voters take away from it

52:54

that Labour's going to put your taxes up?

52:56

And in a debate which is probably only

52:58

understood by a small

53:01

proportion of the public and those people staring

53:03

at it in Westminster, the

53:05

Tories will probably take the trade off of being

53:07

called liars in exchange

53:09

for landing the message that Labour's going to put

53:11

your taxes up. Fabulous. Tim

53:13

Shippman, chief political commentator at the Sunday Times, thanks

53:15

so much for unpacking the debates

53:18

and well there's more isn't there?

53:20

There's one this weekend and then more next weekend in

53:22

a few weeks time. So in a way with Farage

53:24

which will with Penny Morton and Angela

53:26

Rona taking him on. What more could you want

53:28

that to give you the fuffuffuff Friday feeling? Do

53:31

let us know what you made of it all.

53:33

You can email me Matt at times dot radio

53:35

but for now for me Matt surely it's goodbye.

53:53

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