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hellofresh.com. Hello,

1:07

I'm Matt Jolly and this is

1:09

Politics Without the Boy. And it's

1:11

coming up on today's episode. Everything

1:14

is broken and nobody's happy about

1:16

it. We look back on a

1:18

turbulent time in British politics, from

1:20

Brexit to COVID to strikes, to

1:22

changing prime ministers, the cost of

1:25

living crisis. Some new research. John

1:27

Curtis takes us through it. It

1:29

shows just how dissatisfied the public

1:31

is and how we've lost

1:33

faith that anyone can do anything about it.

1:35

Before that, in The Economist, Robert Crampton

1:38

and Alice Thompson, on the sad news

1:40

that as a child Rishi Sunak didn't

1:42

have Sky Telly. And if you

1:44

like what you hear on the podcast, don't forget

1:46

you can join me for Politics Without the Boy.

1:49

It's live on Times Radio, on your DAB radio,

1:51

on your smart speaker, or download the Times Radio

1:53

app. It's Politics Without the Boy. It's weekdays from

1:55

10. you

2:04

So I went on Off

2:06

Air with Jane and Fi

2:08

yesterday. Actually

2:12

without Jane, because Jane was out and

2:15

about on the Times Video bus, so

2:17

I joined Fi on the

2:19

Off Air podcast. And

2:23

we weren't supposed to be talking about politics at all. That

2:25

was the whole idea. I was going to be part of

2:27

their vibe, which is more just chatting about things. But

2:30

I got a bit carried away. How are you

2:32

finding the election? Do

2:35

you know what gets on my wick? Yes. Is

2:38

political journalists who moan

2:40

about politics. And

2:43

they're like, oh, there's only three more weeks of

2:45

this. Oh, best of luck, everyone. This

2:47

is our World Cup. Why? You know,

2:50

it's exciting. Even if the polls suggest it's

2:52

a foregone conclusion, stuff happens every day that

2:54

we will remember. And if

2:57

we cannot be excited about it and enthuse people and

2:59

get people into it, then don't do it because loads

3:01

of other people would like to do it. That

3:03

is a very good point. And it's

3:05

really been noted. I

3:09

think Jane was on a calm down. It's not that sort of

3:12

vibe. But anyway, it was a

3:14

lot of fun. You can listen back to it

3:16

on the Off Air podcast. But more pressing, frankly,

3:18

rather than how I was coping with the election,

3:20

was this question from Fi. But don't

3:22

you sometimes wonder about how people train

3:24

to be tattooists? Because when

3:27

is the time at which you go,

3:29

yes, I can do this off we

3:31

toggle? Do they do it on pigs? I

3:33

don't know. We don't know. We don't

3:36

know. So I'd like to help some cross

3:38

pollination, if you will, between politics

3:40

about the boring bits and off air. If

3:42

you know how you train to be a tattooist, do

3:45

you just get to have a go on some

3:48

people as volunteers? Do you do it

3:50

on joints of meat?

3:53

If you know how you train to be a tattooist,

3:55

email me Matt at times dot radio, and I'll pass

3:57

them on. The Columnists with

3:59

Alibert Alice Thompson and

4:01

Robert Crampton. And

4:04

here they are, both in the studio. Nice,

4:06

it's the second time I've seen you this week. I know,

4:08

it was Monday night. Hugo Rifkin had

4:10

a book launch, we all reconvened there, didn't we? Yeah,

4:13

it was nice. And we had the Times parties as

4:15

well, didn't we, last week? Last week, yeah. Seen a lot of

4:17

it. Seen a lot of that, too

4:19

much. Not in

4:21

Alice's case, but possibly. No,

4:24

no, it's always a pleasure. Are you enjoying the

4:27

election overall? You know what, I

4:29

am actually. I think it's because last time it was

4:31

in the winter and this time it's just slightly warmer when you're getting... Very

4:33

large, very slightly. And

4:36

also, it's not so hot that you want to be on

4:38

holiday or the beach, really, is it? So you get all

4:40

your work done now and then you go away in August.

4:42

I like it, I'm a big fan of the

4:44

democratic process. You're both dispatched across

4:46

the country. Yes, I'm going up north tomorrow, they

4:48

always send me up north because... You're

4:51

the resident northern person? Yes,

4:53

my papers are in order. When did you last

4:55

live in the North? You're

5:01

still the best person we've got for that. Apparently

5:03

so, yeah. I'm Redwall.

5:05

You know how to talk to them?

5:07

Yeah, I can talk to them and

5:09

I'm not frightened. And

5:12

I know where places are, I know the

5:14

difference between the teas and the tine, for

5:16

instance. Very important. Which

5:19

people here think is like that they're just basically the

5:21

same thing. Mine's Tipperton and Taunton. All

5:24

the way down, actually. Well, I was furious because when

5:26

Rishi Sinat went to the west country, last

5:29

week, the week before, lots of the papers said

5:31

he visited Taunton in Devon. No. So

5:34

that's like a sackable offence. And

5:36

also Somerset and Devon not back in on each other. No, they don't like that.

5:39

Devon and Cornwall, you've had it, basically.

5:41

Yeah, it's like Yorkshire and Lancashire. Don't

5:43

let all that happen. Where were you

5:45

being sent? Surprisingly to the southwest. You were at the

5:47

southwest. That's a good far. You've put their language down there,

5:49

don't you? Yeah, I know. Well, it's the farmers as well.

5:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's a bit of a sell-off,

5:54

actually. I might get to a beach as well, then. So nice. Warmer

5:56

weather than Robert. Yeah, yeah, it's been

5:58

a big game, isn't it? And the next one. going

6:00

to brighten up I think we've got the Charlie Martin

6:02

coming so yeah. Notting him till next week. There we

6:05

are, yeah. Bye. Should be all right. Should we talk

6:07

about the election then? Yes. Last night, Rishi Sunap, we

6:09

finally, and it was on tonight, isn't it? Mm. Which

6:11

has been released overnight. He,

6:15

this is the interview he left

6:17

Normandy for. Yes. Rushed back to

6:20

this ITV interview and

6:22

he was asked by Paul Brand on ITV

6:24

if he ever went without anything when he

6:27

was growing up. We went out

6:29

with lots of things, right, because my parents wanted

6:31

to put everything into our education and that was

6:33

a priority. So what sort of things had to

6:35

be sacrificed? Lots of things, right. Can you give

6:37

me an example or something? All sorts of things,

6:39

like lots of people. There'll be all sorts of

6:41

things that I would have wanted as a kid

6:43

that I couldn't have, right? Famously

6:46

Sky TV. So

6:48

that was something that we never had growing up

6:50

actually. Was it famous?

6:52

Famously. That's weird. It must have been a big thing

6:55

in their family, but actually I have to say we didn't have Sky TV. I

6:57

didn't let the children have it and the reason I didn't is I

6:59

wanted them to do their homework and I reckon the Cenacts may have

7:02

thought that. I think this was a cultural

7:04

decision rather than a financial one, I

7:06

suspect. I think this was if you're going to

7:08

get a scholarship to Winchester, you can't have Sky TV because you've

7:11

got to focus on your work. Yeah, like

7:13

not being able to allow to watch ITV in the 70s. Yeah,

7:16

yeah, yeah, because of the advert so that it was a bit downmarket.

7:19

All right, Ian Blightton, I wasn't allowed Ian Blightton. What?

7:22

Yeah, Ian Blightton was like, they were like, that

7:25

was kind of too modern to know. What corrupts your mind? Yeah,

7:27

I think they wanted more of the classics. I

7:30

suspect Mr and Mrs Sunak's parents' work

7:32

wasn't that they couldn't afford it.

7:34

It was that they didn't want it and

7:37

given how well their son's done, maybe they

7:39

were right. Well, I mean, he's only a

7:41

couple of years older than me. We

7:43

got Sky in the 90s. Yeah,

7:46

he was born in 1980, wasn't he? He was

7:48

just spoiled basically, weren't he? Well, no, so I

7:51

wouldn't describe myself as that

7:55

without going too much into the socioeconomics

7:58

as a chirly house on. However. We

8:01

got it because my family all liked motocross, and they

8:04

wanted to watch motocross on your most sport. Fair enough.

8:06

And I really vividly remember the day it

8:08

was installed, because it was a really wet, stormy, windy day,

8:10

and this poor man was going up and down the land

8:12

to invite the cables and all that. And

8:14

then he had to keep diddling it, you know,

8:16

to make sure it was pointing it, you know,

8:19

sputting it. And he finally got it working, and

8:21

the very first thing I saw in it was

8:23

bagpuss. Oh right, that's what I think. It's

8:26

a bit weird. Good show, though. Yeah, but all

8:28

this fuss. And for

8:30

memory, in that sort of early 90s, I

8:35

think it was the early 90s, basically all that was on it was

8:37

like, crap, Euro

8:40

sports events. Sort of Transworld sport, but all day, so

8:42

motocross was the thing that we got it for. And

8:45

UK Gold was just, we ran

8:47

EastEnders from the beginning. So I

8:49

think I've seen, I saw

8:51

EastEnders when it launched. But it was about the Premier League,

8:53

wasn't it? Yeah, exactly. It was all about the Premier League,

8:55

which launched in 92. Yeah. And perhaps

8:58

the youthful Rishi wants to watch that. Or Kay

9:00

Burley and Adam Bolton, maybe that was Sky News

9:02

or his thing. But with the cost of

9:04

living crisis, it's kind of weird, isn't it? I mean, we

9:06

have to say, it is just bonkers to say that's the

9:08

worst thing that you suffered. Yes. You

9:10

just don't say anything. Or, you know what he's

9:12

talking about is outdoor lose and kind of not

9:15

having enough food. And then Sky just seems like,

9:17

because that's the sort of extra, isn't it? That's

9:19

kind of, if you're lucky, you get

9:21

that. Yes, although- I mean,

9:23

a bike maybe would have been better. Yeah, I mean, you

9:25

obviously couldn't think of anything because he was waffling. And

9:27

then he came up with that because he thought famously,

9:29

that was, he thought that maybe that was

9:32

out in the public record already, because it's famous. He'd only said

9:34

it before. He'd only said it before. But

9:37

yeah, it doesn't sound good again. I

9:40

mean, some sympathy with him because it's

9:43

hard and people, there's

9:46

a sort of model for what we think of as

9:48

poverty, which has changed, right? I mean, there are lots

9:50

of things now which are considered to be essentials, which

9:52

would not have been essentials. Like ball band. A long

9:54

time ago, yes. Ball band, so you don't have access

9:56

to the internet. Yes. If somebody said

9:58

20 years ago, you know, I mean- That wouldn't have

10:00

now, it is alongside gas, water,

10:03

electricity. Exactly. And if your mental model is the

10:05

sort of the 40 auctionman sketch, then

10:07

you think, oh, everything sounds

10:10

spoiled. But, you

10:13

know, I mean, I guess probably most kids in his

10:15

class would have had Skye, Winchester,

10:17

certainly. And so I

10:20

can see the point he's trying to make, but

10:22

again, it doesn't sound a bit tone deaf, considering

10:24

25, 30% of people

10:26

in the country are really seriously, properly

10:28

poor, and lots of people going for food.

10:31

You just keep coming back to the fact that he hasn't been

10:33

an MP for very long, that actually he falls into every single

10:35

trap, doesn't he? It's a bear

10:37

trap of a question. There's no good

10:39

answer to that. No. Because he can't

10:42

say, well, we used to go without lunch, because

10:44

that's not true. No,

10:47

but it happens when you go down that road of saying, you

10:49

know, I'm from an ordinary background. And he

10:51

was probably by the standards of Winchester, a

10:53

pharmacist and a GP. But

10:55

that is pretty well off compared to most of the

10:57

country. But it's got

10:59

two messages, literally side by side of the text machine.

11:02

One person, Jamie, says, the Sky TV comment is simply

11:04

another gaffe and shows us that touch. Then Nick says,

11:06

I think the mocking of Mr. Michi Sinek on this

11:08

is a bit off. He was asked, and I say

11:10

that is not much of a fan. And

11:13

I think that... I'm kind of with that, I think.

11:15

Yeah, he sort of... It was obviously a bear trap.

11:17

Yeah. But he's not where he adept

11:19

at stepping round. Well, I think it was Camilla Long at

11:22

the weekend said he's even a politician. Yeah. He doesn't... He's

11:25

maybe not... He just doesn't seem like a... Yeah.

11:28

But he seems more like a management consultant, but then he's

11:30

not a very good management consultant, is he? No. That's the

11:32

problem. If he was just that, if he's just coming in,

11:34

and he's just going to be the CEO of, you know,

11:36

UK... But you start the election campaign by slagging off

11:38

all young people because he says they're in their bubble and

11:41

they need to do national service. And then you slag off

11:43

all old people by scooting

11:45

out of the D-Date celebration... To go and

11:47

do an interview. Why

11:49

do you have to record this interview five, six days ago? Well,

11:51

the thing I find odd about it is you recorded it before

11:53

the manifesto was out. Yes. So, I mean, actually, to tell you

11:55

that there wasn't that much new in it. Anyway,

11:58

the whole thing... And he also says, I think... I made

12:00

some slightly derisive comment about how

12:02

everything overran in Normandy. Yeah. Which

12:05

is not great. Sorry, I was late at

12:07

all over Iran. Yeah. But also he

12:09

didn't get that. And I think he should have then said that

12:11

would be the chance to do the Margaret Beckett and David

12:13

Cameron, all those always say it's the most emotional thing I've

12:15

ever done. It made me realise

12:17

why I was a politician. He could have used Normandy

12:19

in a way. But he didn't because,

12:22

bearing in mind, this was immediately afterwards. And

12:24

he obviously doesn't feel that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

12:27

mean, he could have tried to feel it in

12:29

retrospect, but he didn't have a chance because it

12:31

only just happened. And he was just thinking, yes,

12:33

sorry about that. I'm back to business. Harry

12:35

is auditioning to become a Tory spin doctor. He says

12:38

you just have to own it, don't you? You just

12:40

say, I was fortunately very lucky, which is unlike a

12:42

lot of people. Don't try to pretend. And actually, when

12:44

I asked the question, what do you give up? So,

12:46

well, actually, I don't know because my parents worked very

12:49

hard. And you know, I'm sure

12:51

they went without things. But we never felt

12:53

it. And also what you can't say is

12:55

he was giving those things up. Because the

12:57

family were making decisions about education.

13:02

And they thought, well, we're not going

13:04

to probably, we're not going to know whether they could have afforded a BMW. But

13:07

we're not going to have that. We're going

13:09

to have a Ford Mondeo. And we're going to send

13:12

our kid to Winchester. And that's fair enough. People will

13:14

get that. But also, they were getting

13:16

a bit bored of their childhoods now. I mean, the problem is

13:18

that we've gone on so much about Keir Starmer's childhood and they

13:20

know how difficult it was. But then I was thinking, you know,

13:22

actually, each of them, I now know so much, they each had

13:24

their own dog. You know, they went on holidays to Lake District.

13:26

They actually had a car. You know, he goes on and on

13:28

about the dad's car. But that was the most common car to

13:31

have. That actually, I think there's almost

13:33

too much for even with Ed Davey when he's

13:35

talking about his parents dying, which I thought was

13:37

extraordinary. I've now heard it so many times. I'm

13:39

almost immune to it. It's because we're

13:41

following it. What was interesting was the

13:45

son's never mind the ballots YouTube

13:47

show. They got James Johnson as our focus

13:49

groups to do a live. Although I think

13:51

they show people it's called The Worm. So

13:53

they get people to, you know, normal people

13:55

to watch politics speaking and then say you

13:57

feeling positive or negative of the talking. When

14:00

Kistam was talking about my dad was a tool

14:02

maker, my mum was a nurse, I was the

14:04

first one to go to university, they liked it

14:06

and it started going up. So the fact that

14:08

we're bored of it, that's because we listened to

14:10

party political, yeah, to conference speeches

14:12

three years ago. It's just because he's talking

14:14

about personal stuff as opposed to what he's

14:16

saying. He might have been saying my dad

14:18

was a feudal, but

14:24

at least it's human and it's human interest, isn't it?

14:26

It's human interest. Also, everyone thinks so, Keir, so there

14:28

is a sense that actually, you know his background, you think

14:30

that actually he's Porsche, don't you? But the whole probably

14:32

the now thing, it's been, I mean, do you

14:34

remember Douglas Heard in 1990 standing for the Tory

14:36

election? Yeah, when he said he was just a farmer's farmer. When he said, yeah, I

14:38

went to, yeah, my dad was a

14:40

tenant farmer, I went to eat, but

14:43

he was only a tenant farmer, which I

14:45

guess in his world is an important distinction. Well, it

14:47

is, isn't it? Because you're a tenant rather than a,

14:50

yeah, it's, as I say, it's based on a

14:52

model from based in about 1920, you know, when,

14:58

when everyone were wearing cloth caps, but everyone was also desperate

15:00

not to be wearing them. Do you know what I mean? So

15:03

funny, so many people are getting very cost, we should stop

15:05

talking about this. Well,

15:09

so one person says, Mike says, this is being

15:12

totally unreasonable. He was asked a question, he answered

15:14

it, he spent 10 minutes thinking of a better

15:16

answer, but is that how we should judge who

15:18

is the best leader of our country? Do we

15:20

want a leader whose main ability is to handle

15:22

such pathetic questions expertly? Personally, I don't

15:24

need a leader to have the same background as me, he says,

15:27

Mike. And then Stephanie says,

15:29

this is a question Sunak's team should have prepared

15:31

at the very beginning of the campaign. Yeah, yeah,

15:33

yeah, yeah. Sorry. Let's

15:36

move on there, because we think easy to

15:38

experience, the incoming parliament and government

15:40

is going to be very inexperienced. Very inexperienced.

15:43

Yeah, so I think since it's going to be the

15:45

youngest parliament since the Second World War, actually, and

15:47

it, and this is going on the

15:49

last Ugov poll, but it will probably be the

15:51

youngest, it will definitely be the most diverse, and

15:54

there will be a lot more gay MPs as

15:56

well. So it'll be completely different, and

15:58

they will have different views. They'll be mostly. millennials

16:01

and some, well

16:03

actually quite a lot of Gen Z. I mean, they're going to

16:05

be quite a lot under 13. There's one

16:07

who's 21 who will get in, who's

16:09

the Labour candidate in Cambridge, Northwest, I

16:11

think so. And he's gonna

16:13

get it, and he wouldn't have thought he would. I

16:15

think he's still doing his post-grad course. He'll have to

16:18

either give that up, or he'll

16:20

have to try and do them both at the same time, but

16:22

it will be very different. And I feel sorry for the ones

16:24

who didn't think they were gonna get in this time and now

16:26

will, because that's quite strange actually. I mean, you think

16:28

it's great, you really thought you were in a seat that wasn't

16:30

gonna win, and suddenly you're in London, and you have

16:32

to go to Westminster, and you have to change. Your

16:34

entire life changes. It's good and bad though,

16:37

isn't it? It was up to 14% ethnic minority,

16:39

you said, I think, which must be getting close

16:41

to being representative, I would have thought, in

16:43

terms of proper, yeah. Yeah, that's true. But then

16:45

the number of women projected, particularly in the Conservative

16:47

Party, projected to go down. It's getting down. And I

16:49

think that's because women look at it and think that it's

16:52

actually much tougher. They get much more trolled, and it's

16:54

much more difficult. And also you're ranked

16:56

about up to that. A Tory woman right now looks at

16:58

the polls and thinks, nah. And

17:00

there's a certain type of Tory man who's like, oh, well, actually I

17:02

think you'll find a vote if you do like a David Cavanagh coming

17:04

at the bottom. Also,

17:07

mate, I think it was up to six, was

17:09

it one in six out gay? Yes,

17:12

I think they're gonna be over 100. Yeah, which is,

17:14

and the Michael Crick analysis of that was interesting,

17:16

because he's basically saying probably

17:19

not got kids. And therefore,

17:21

I bet people with kids

17:24

are much more, being much more

17:26

disincentivised because of all the agro. And

17:28

more gay MPs in the cabinet, which will be

17:31

interesting actually to have. It'll just be much more mixed

17:33

in some ways. And that will be interesting. I think

17:35

it will be the fact that we've

17:37

got a lot of millennials in there, that they will have

17:39

different priorities. And they've already said that they're gonna want to

17:41

sit more normal hours. They're

17:43

gonna be very keen on housing and issues

17:45

like that, childcare, all the sort of issues

17:47

that you care about between like 28 and

17:49

50, really. But

17:52

it's a conversation we were having the other night, but you

17:54

were saying that you're gonna do your column on this. Is

17:56

that in a way, the lack of fuss about?

17:59

Yeah. so many more gay

18:01

MPs, gay MPs in the cabinet, not being a

18:03

thing. Well, actually, I used your example, which

18:05

was Ben Bradshaw. So when Ben Bradshaw got in

18:07

an accident, and that was only 97, the

18:10

vitriol was extraordinary about him being... He was only

18:13

the second MP to come out as gay. And

18:15

it was extraordinary. He was a candidate.

18:17

He was absolutely hammered by everybody else.

18:20

You wrote this, this Tory rival

18:22

described homosexuality as a sterile, disease-ridden

18:24

and God-forsaken occupation. Mm. And

18:27

that was incredible, you think, and now

18:29

it won't even be remarked upon. But we would have

18:32

the discussion about it. It should be remarked upon, because

18:34

in the same way that we should have seen that

18:36

being the first non-white prime minister. It's a fabulous transformation.

18:38

I mean, it's not long before 97 that we had

18:40

gay plague headlines in certain newspapers and clause

18:42

28 and all of that. It's

18:45

a real... It's amazing in advance.

18:48

Yeah, very good. Nick's has been in touch,

18:50

saying, I grew up gay during section 28.

18:52

The transformation in culture is a miracle. I'm

18:54

so happy and relieved. I think I would

18:56

have checked out by now if it hadn't.

18:58

This is nice. That's fantastic. Yeah, really nice.

19:00

Excellent. Right. How do you get

19:02

young people back into the office? Apparently,

19:06

according to someone called Johnny Rosenblatt, the co-founder

19:08

of Spacemade, he says the Gen Zs, Gen

19:11

Zs and the Millennials... You've really struggled with

19:13

that, don't you? I don't know which is

19:15

it? Gen Z. It is Gen Z,

19:17

isn't it? Yeah, because they're not American. Yeah, fine. And

19:20

the Millennials, apparently, they want

19:22

climbing walls, podcast studios and peloton

19:24

bikes. He was using this to

19:26

slag off his rival, WeWork. Apparently,

19:29

I didn't know this, but they give

19:31

out free beer. Yeah. So

19:33

I'm not at all surprised that they went into bankruptcy last

19:36

November. They give out free beer and

19:38

free Prosecco. They're phasing it out. And Johnny

19:40

Rosenblatt is making the point that youngsters

19:43

are not into that. They don't want to free

19:45

beer anymore. They want to go and chin up a

19:47

wall. Best done sober. Yeah,

19:50

the thought is, I'd imagine the free beer and the

19:52

climbing wall in the office is a disaster. That's a

19:54

recipe. It's a change in to Lycra in the office, though, isn't it?

19:56

I mean, I'm getting covered in talcum powder and

19:58

sweat. Well, before

20:01

we add climbing walls to your long list of

20:03

things that you like... I actually really like climbing

20:05

walls, but everything has a time and a place.

20:07

Yeah, okay. Well, Ollie Rook is from the London

20:09

Climbing Centre. He joins us now. Hi, Ollie. Hey,

20:13

good morning. Thanks for having me on. So you're

20:15

from a climbing centre that people come to you

20:17

to do the climbing? They

20:19

do indeed, yeah. So, I mean, at its

20:22

most basic, I probably wouldn't want too many

20:24

offices to do a spark of climbing walls

20:26

or take a visit. Exactly. But

20:29

do you... Would you... If

20:32

you weren't at the London Climbing Centre, would you

20:34

choose a workplace because they had a climbing wall

20:36

in the corner of the office? It

20:39

would definitely tempt me in, yeah. I think cutting down

20:41

on the commute time for what is a sport that

20:43

I do three or four times a week would

20:46

be a massive win. How

20:48

old are you, Ollie? I'm

20:50

29, so I'm definitely not in Gen Z. But,

20:53

I mean, that's the beauty of climbing, is

20:55

that it's a sport for everyone. We see

20:57

people climbing from as young as seven or

21:00

even younger, and we have retirees who come

21:02

in as well and still kind of climb

21:04

the route and get themselves

21:06

on the wall. So, yes, not just for the

21:08

young people. And is

21:10

it booming, particularly? Because both of our

21:12

daughters have suddenly really got into it and

21:14

are going to play. Is it like a

21:17

new... Is it TikTok? Is that what's done it? I

21:20

think it's a mixture of a lot of

21:22

things. I think, generally speaking, people seem to

21:25

be searching out more alternative sports nowadays. The

21:28

Olympics boom is definitely helping. I mean, climbing

21:30

is going to be in the Olympics for

21:32

only the second time this year. And we've

21:34

got a Team GB medalist hopeful in Toby

21:36

Roberts. So that's really exciting. But

21:39

generally, I think that there's a lot of

21:41

media around climbing in 2018, 2019. A

21:45

few really kind of Oscar-winning documentaries came out

21:47

that really shone a light on the sport.

21:50

But, yeah, it's just gathering momentum. And I think the more

21:52

people do it, the more that word of mouth spreads, the

21:54

more people give it going and the more people work on

21:57

that. Louise, have you tempted? You tempted

21:59

us? Well, I do climb... I

22:01

lived by the Westway, it's a great climbing

22:03

wall. I've got a strong hold

22:06

gym just down on the canal

22:08

near me in Hackney. Do you do it

22:10

with ropes or without? Without

22:12

because you can do a lot of

22:14

climbing at a very low level. A lot of agility and strength stuff

22:19

is you're only six inches off the ground. You're

22:22

losing out. It's very good

22:24

for upper arm strength. I think Ollie would probably

22:26

agree that it's probably best in a climbing

22:28

wall situation rather than an office situation. Apart

22:30

from anything else, you can have big insurance

22:33

issues in offices if you've got putting

22:36

in climbing walls and getting... Also,

22:38

it gets a bit competitive in the office, but the whole point

22:41

is that you're doing something that actually just relax after work. Get

22:43

away from the people you work with as well. I

22:47

think the height is probably a bit of an issue

22:49

to be fair. I mean, if you can see over

22:51

my shoulder there, we've got kind of six meters of

22:54

ceiling room. And I don't know how many offices would

22:56

have some room to dedicate there. Yes, but I think

22:59

it's an accident waiting to happen. It

23:05

really is. You don't want one of our more

23:07

senior comps, obviously reception, and then you tumbling down

23:09

on them. No, no, no. And then you have

23:11

to put in sort of foam matting in reception

23:13

and stuff. And it's just going to spoil the

23:15

office. Yeah, no one's looking up at you as well.

23:18

Yeah, exactly. I

23:20

don't think we're sold on it, Ollie. We're sold on the climbing

23:22

but not in the office. But I think that's fine. I think

23:24

we're all in agreement on that. Totally. There we are. That's all

23:26

I was saying. Good. We'll have to get you down for a

23:28

trip out. Sorry, I'm losing it now, Ollie. I'm

23:30

just going through a tunnel. Yeah, we'll do a

23:32

group trip. He's inviting us. He's inviting us, too.

23:34

Yeah, I'll come. I love a team out. Love

23:36

a team out, too. Yeah. Lovely. Thanks, Ollie. Thanks

23:39

for that, Ollie. Ollie, we're up there from the

23:41

London Climbing Centre. Robert Cranton and Alice Thompson. Then,

23:43

of course, you can read them every week with

23:45

your time subscription at thetimes.com. Up

23:47

next, John Curtis on why the public

23:49

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Unlimited slows. The

25:44

last few years have been a lot.

25:51

The British people have spoken and

25:54

the answer is we're out. Brexit

25:56

means Brexit. Let's get

25:58

Brexit done, my friend. Unwelcome

26:02

but expected. The coronavirus has

26:04

hit the UK. First

26:06

slide please. Next slide please. Stay

26:08

home. Protect the NHS. Save

26:10

lives. Ukrainian soldiers got a lot

26:13

of artillery, a lot of tanks in this area.

26:16

I have come here and stand before you on

26:18

behalf of the brave, who are now in

26:21

the trenches under enemy artillery

26:24

fire. Headlines around the cost

26:26

of living crisis are going nowhere. We are

26:28

going to have to take money from government

26:30

debt or taxation and distribute it to those

26:32

who cannot afford to pay their bills if

26:34

not people will die. It is

26:37

clearly now the will of

26:39

the parliamentary Conservative Party that

26:42

there should be a new leader. I have

26:44

therefore spoken to His Majesty the King

26:46

to notify him that I

26:49

am resigning as leader of the Conservative

26:51

Party. Earlier today I spoke with

26:53

His Majesty the King to request the dissolution

26:55

of parliament. The King

26:57

has granted this request and we will have

26:59

a general election on the 4th of July.

27:06

Yeah Brexit, coronavirus, the Russian invasion of

27:08

Ukraine which fueled soaring energy and food

27:11

bills and a cost of living crisis

27:13

and alongside it political

27:15

turmoil with five different

27:17

Prime Ministers over just

27:19

eight years. And you, it seems,

27:22

have had enough. The public trust and

27:25

confidence in government and the people who govern us

27:27

is at a record low. Public

27:29

services are broken but voters have

27:31

little faith in anyone being able

27:33

to fix them. That's

27:35

the verdict of some new research out

27:38

today from the British Social Attitude Survey.

27:40

More than half of people, 58%, almost

27:44

never trust politicians to tell the

27:46

truth if they're in a tight

27:48

corner. That's up 19 points

27:51

from 2020. So here

27:53

is the polling guru, Professor Sir

27:55

John Curtis from the National

27:57

Centre for Social Research on just... how

28:00

bad the picture is? Yeah,

28:02

it is a fairly depressing

28:05

picture. Of course, in

28:07

a sense, it's a reflection of

28:10

the fact that the last five years have

28:12

been five very difficult years because of the

28:14

pandemic, the Russian-Ukraine war. But

28:16

we have had the

28:19

worst public health crisis in a

28:21

century, the biggest inflationary spiral since

28:23

the 1970s, the worst labour unrest

28:26

since the 1970s. And

28:29

the health service levels of

28:31

dissatisfaction and waiting lists are at a

28:33

record high. So we certainly

28:35

shouldn't be surprised that the public think that

28:37

there is difficulties with the country.

28:40

But sure, in a sense, what

28:42

seems to have happened is that

28:45

in the wake of the eventual resolution of

28:47

the Brexit stalemate, the Brexit stalemate of 2019

28:51

certainly helped to undermine our trust in

28:53

confidence in government, much as the MPs'

28:55

expenses scandal had done beforehand. And before

28:57

that, the whole argument about back-to-basics

28:59

back in the 1990s when sleeves surrounded

29:02

John Major's government. But in the

29:04

wake of the delivery of Brexit,

29:06

at least those voters who had

29:08

voted leave in the 2016 referendum

29:10

went, ah, finally our

29:12

politics are working. And indeed, for the

29:15

first time, leave voters, those who were

29:17

skeptical about the open union, had more

29:19

trust in confidence in how Britain was

29:21

being run politically than were remainers. Whereas

29:23

historically, it's tended to be the other

29:25

way around. Well, unfortunately,

29:27

because Brexit either

29:30

taking on your view, either hasn't delivered

29:32

or has been born in unfortunate circumstances,

29:34

and therefore has been very difficult to

29:37

demonstrate that it's delivered, that leave

29:39

voters who now think that Brexit

29:41

has not stopped immigration are

29:44

now more doubtful about the economic consequences. Basically,

29:47

the rise in levels

29:49

of trust in confidence that was clearly

29:51

there after the last election, that has

29:53

just simply been reversed. And

29:55

meanwhile, those who voted remain are still pretty

29:57

much as pestering as they were. this

30:00

together, we've now got a situation 45%

30:02

of us, for example, say that

30:05

we almost never trust governments

30:07

to put the interests of

30:09

the country above those of

30:11

their own party. We've got 58% of people

30:14

saying they almost never trust MPs to tell the truth,

30:16

whether in a tight corner, and nearly

30:18

80% of us think that the way the

30:20

system of government needs changing. These are either

30:22

at or exceed a

30:25

previous record high. Of course, I guess also one

30:28

other reason why the public may feel this

30:30

way, of course, is that the last five

30:32

years have also been holistically somewhat turbulent, not

30:35

least inside the Conservative Party. And

30:37

the fact it's record highs, because some people say,

30:39

well, no one's ever trusted politicians. There was ever

30:41

a house in days, but you're

30:43

right, if you wanted to create

30:46

the circumstances for a normal

30:48

person to lose faith in the political

30:50

process, you could have a big constitutional

30:52

row, a big health crisis, a big

30:54

economic crisis, and then a big political

30:56

crisis. And you throw

30:58

them all together. So there were lots

31:01

of reasons to feel like things aren't

31:03

working. Yeah, absolutely. But certainly, you know,

31:05

I've already mentioned how the

31:07

difficulties with Brexit or the apparent difficulties with Brexit

31:09

have played a role. It's also

31:11

the case, perhaps not surprisingly, that

31:14

the many people who are satisfied with the

31:16

state of the health service, they're

31:19

much less likely to trust politicians, much less,

31:21

much more likely to think we need to

31:23

reform government. Now, you're right, particularly many comes

31:25

to trusting politicians to tell the truth. We've

31:27

always been somewhat doubtful. It's just that our

31:30

doubts are now more widespread. And certainly,

31:32

if you go back to the 1970s, it's quite

31:34

striking. Despite the difficulties we

31:37

then had as a country, as already

31:39

mentioned, inflationary spot, labour market unrest, and

31:41

election about who governs in February

31:43

1974. Actually, at that

31:46

stage, we were fairly evenly divided in

31:48

our views about whether or not our

31:50

system of government needed a great deal

31:52

of improvement or not. So one has

31:54

to say that we

31:57

are in it isn't just circumstances,

31:59

clear. that can explain all of

32:01

this. It's part of the story, but given

32:03

that in the 1970s, we

32:06

weren't quite so gloomy about our politics, there

32:08

is definitely a new ingredient in the mood

32:10

that we've got at the moment. Has

32:12

there been a shift towards statism

32:16

or big statism post pandemic

32:18

where we saw those interventions,

32:20

whether it was furlough, literally telling us where

32:22

we could and couldn't go, the

32:25

sense that the government, the state would

32:27

be there. Has that meant that we

32:29

expect more from the state and are

32:31

therefore even more dissatisfied, disenchanted when they

32:33

doesn't deliver? Well, I think that is

32:35

probably one of the $64,000 questions about

32:39

the last five years. British

32:42

social attitudes are asked a question regularly all

32:44

the way back to its first survey in

32:46

1983, which asked people,

32:48

what do you think the government should do if

32:50

it has to choose? Should it reduce taxation and

32:52

spending on things like health, education and

32:55

social benefits? Should it keep them as they are

32:57

or should it increase them? Now, the honest truth

32:59

is very few people ever

33:01

say we do, so they'll actually, we've got about

33:03

one in 10 people saying that at the moment.

33:05

But what's been true in the past, it's been

33:07

a very clear dynamic. So in the

33:10

years of Margaret Thatcher and John

33:12

Major, we gradually became increasingly

33:14

concerned about the state of our public services,

33:16

although not necessarily to the level we're at

33:18

at the moment. And the

33:21

public were on balance saying, sometimes in

33:23

the run up to the 1970 election, around three fifths of

33:25

us saying, actually, we think we

33:27

should increase taxes and

33:29

spending. New Labour actually

33:32

didn't believe this evidence.

33:34

I can well remember New Labour politicians saying,

33:36

I know what British social, they tell British

33:38

social attitudes, but frankly, we don't believe them.

33:41

But eventually about two years into office after

33:43

they kept to Ken Clark's quite

33:46

tight tax and spending plans, New Labour did

33:48

start opening up the

33:50

spending. They did indeed increase taxes, they increased

33:53

national insurance. And the health

33:55

service was satisfaction grew

33:58

very tremendously. and

34:00

the schools were much better. And

34:02

of course, however, the public tend to be a

34:04

fickle lot. So that expansion of the state did

34:07

eventually get a reaction, i.e. people

34:09

were saying, well, great, schools are

34:11

better, hospitals are better, could

34:14

you now please? Taxes not quite so much.

34:17

And so by that, together with the financial

34:19

crisis, you saw the reaction. Now

34:21

the interesting thing about this part, which of

34:23

course has seen a record increase in

34:26

taxation and spending, the state's now taking about 45%

34:28

of the economy as opposed to

34:30

a little under 40%. Despite

34:32

that, the reaction at the

34:35

moment, at least is muted. Now it's

34:37

true that back in 2019, 53%

34:40

of people saying we should increase taxes and spending, it

34:43

slipped now to 46, but

34:45

given the size of the expansion of

34:47

the state, that 46 number still

34:49

looks rather high and it's much higher than the

34:51

31% that it was towards

34:54

the end of the last labor government. Now

34:56

there are two explanations. One is

34:58

the short term one, which is that basically the

35:01

state of the health service is regarded

35:03

as being so bad, that until that

35:05

is sorted, the public don't regard tax

35:08

cuts as the priority. The other

35:10

possibility which you've mentioned is that

35:13

maybe the pandemic has been like

35:15

war. War has seen that

35:17

both World War I and World War II are

35:20

the two occasions when we've seen the two

35:22

previous big expansions of the role and scope

35:24

of the state. Has

35:27

the experience of the pandemic with the state rescuing

35:29

the labor market also increased our

35:31

appetite for a bigger set? Now I don't

35:33

think we'll know the answer to this question

35:35

for five years, but it does as it

35:38

were, raise interesting questions about the extent to

35:40

which our politicians in

35:42

this election campaign have been fighting

35:44

over tax cuts when

35:47

apparently it's the state of

35:49

the health service, it's the state of social care, that

35:52

perhaps for at least a half of the public

35:55

is still the priority. I

35:57

suppose there's a difference between the public.

36:00

dissatisfied with this Prime Minister or

36:02

that Home Secretary or this

36:05

bit of the state. Sure.

36:07

This collective sense of losing

36:09

faith in our political system.

36:12

Did the public feel like there are

36:14

massive problems and no one is up

36:16

to the job of tackling them?

36:19

That's quite a dangerous moment potentially, isn't it? Well,

36:21

it is. And in a sense, you can

36:24

see perhaps some of the difficulty this is

36:26

causing our politicians in the election campaign. I

36:28

mean, the question that's being asked about

36:31

the Conservative Party is, well, look, you

36:33

can say now you're going to reduce

36:35

taxes. You say now you're going to

36:37

reduce immigration. But should

36:40

we believe you, given

36:42

your record? And this is

36:44

where the lack of trust becomes a problem.

36:46

But equally on the Labour side, a lot

36:49

of people say both as resort of focus groups

36:51

are looking at the numbers. Not

36:53

that much enthusiasm for

36:56

Labour as alternative may be acceptable,

36:58

but not necessarily going to be

37:00

brilliant. And again, this perhaps reflects

37:02

the mood. We really think our

37:04

country is in trouble. We suspect

37:06

that maybe or we hope at least that

37:08

perhaps the Labour Party won't

37:10

make quite such a mess

37:13

and being quite such difficulty as the current government

37:15

appears to be. But we're

37:17

not entirely sure because, again, are they in

37:19

the end perhaps promising

37:21

more than they can deliver? And

37:23

it certainly has it where there's something

37:26

of a suspension of disbelief about

37:28

what the next government will look like if indeed

37:30

it is a Labour government. I mean, beyond that,

37:33

I mean, I guess there are then bigger questions.

37:36

One is, will it depress turnout? Well, maybe a bit,

37:38

but I don't think it's going to be the principal

37:40

problem. It certainly does

37:42

potentially add fuel to

37:45

the arguments about changing

37:47

our constitution. We've

37:49

got on a measure that actually tends

37:52

not to get particularly high level support

37:54

for changing our electoral system for the

37:56

House of Commons. We've now got another

37:58

increase. continuing to run

38:01

over 50% and it's people who

38:03

I don't trust politicians who are more likely to

38:05

be wanting to look for the change in the

38:07

rules. Seemingly support for English devolutions

38:09

gone up, again the pandemic may play

38:11

a role there. And also I

38:14

don't want to push this too far but again there's

38:16

some evidence that perhaps there

38:18

is a, that for some people their lack

38:20

of trust in politicians does feed into a

38:22

sense of populism. The sense that at

38:24

the end of the day there's a political elite up there

38:27

who are not really taking

38:29

notice of the wisdom of ordinary people combined

38:33

with big business. You get

38:35

some of that in the rhetoric

38:37

of Nigel Farage and reform. Now

38:40

and we're not saying directly that this is a

38:42

reason why reform are doing what they're doing but

38:44

certainly you can see the week we did happen

38:46

to have a measure of where people stand on

38:48

some of these. I mean to be honest quite

38:50

a lot of people say that you

38:52

know they express views which appear

38:54

to be pretty populist but it's certainly

38:57

particularly prevalent against those who you know

38:59

not surprisingly don't trust our politicians. So

39:01

in a sense I guess I

39:03

think one crucial message is you know whoever forms

39:05

the next government, yes you've

39:07

got to fix the public services, yes

39:10

you've got to fix the economy and

39:13

both of those will help to restore

39:15

faith in politics but you've

39:17

probably also got to work on

39:19

restoring faith in you, certainly

39:22

as a government and perhaps also for

39:24

whoever forms the opposition that there is

39:27

a job to be done in the

39:29

light of the political turmoil of you

39:31

know arguably since 2016, certainly since

39:33

2019 there is a job there to persuade people that

39:39

as it were we can as a country govern

39:41

ourselves reasonably well ethically and

39:43

efficiently and about those things at the

39:45

moment there's a degree of doubt. And

39:48

actually that sort of takes almost back to where we

39:50

started with the fact that the biggest rise in

39:53

disenchantment is amongst leave voters, the country

39:55

was split down the middle eight years

39:57

ago over the question of leave and remain, it was

39:59

the biggest. big defining message of the

40:01

2019 general election, get Brexit done.

40:04

And yet in this election campaign is

40:06

almost totally absent. Michael Hesseltyne, former Deputy

40:08

Prime Minister, warned the campaign will be

40:10

the most dishonest in modern times because

40:12

no one is talking about it. It's

40:14

the big split in our politics, it's

40:16

the big driving factor of people's anger

40:18

and yet no one's talking about it. Indeed.

40:21

Well, of course, the Labour Party back in

40:23

2020 made the judgement that they wouldn't

40:26

possibly be able to win an election unless they

40:28

particularly reconnected with those who

40:32

are in favour of Brexit. In

40:34

the event that assumption has proven to be false,

40:36

Labour Party has managed to get way ahead in

40:38

the opinion polls, even though

40:40

actually is again, our report shows and

40:42

holding evidence also is consistent with this

40:45

more recently that once you start looking

40:48

who supports Conservative, who supports Labour, actually

40:51

the link between people's attitudes

40:53

towards Brexit and who they're

40:55

going to support is very clear there. You still got around 50%

40:59

of those people who want to

41:01

be outside the open union saying

41:03

that they regard themselves as a

41:05

Conservative supporter and 50% of

41:09

those on the remain side saying that

41:11

they support Labour. So the divide is

41:13

there. But I think what this report

41:15

also comes up with, and again, it

41:17

feeds into this argument about cultural issues,

41:20

about woke and anti-woke, is

41:23

that the arguments about so-called

41:25

cultural identity issues, these are now

41:27

more clearly related to how people

41:29

vote, particularly if you take into

41:31

account not just Conservative and Labour,

41:34

but reform, the Greens and the

41:36

Liberal Democrat. And it is quite

41:39

striking if you go back to 2015 and

41:42

just take as an example the issue of

41:44

immigration. Yes, then it was

41:46

somewhat true that people who thought the immigration

41:48

wasn't good for the country were rather more

41:51

likely to vote for Conservative or at that

41:53

time UKIP, and that those who

41:55

were at the other end of the debate about immigration

41:57

were more likely to vote labelled Democrats. When we're talking

41:59

about kind of 20 point differences. Now

42:02

the differences in terms of party

42:04

support according to your views about immigration

42:07

are about twice as big as that

42:09

and to that extent at least you

42:11

know and that's just one example it's

42:14

also true these arguments about transgender for

42:16

example there is now a sharper

42:18

relationship between our

42:20

views on cultural identity issues than was

42:22

true before Brexit in Brexit which you

42:24

know was always part of that debate.

42:27

It's not just as it were a separate

42:29

issue it's also been a harbinger of a

42:32

wider set of issues coming into our politics.

42:34

It's not that the left-right divide has disappeared

42:37

but of course it's the left-right divide on

42:39

which both the conservative and the Labour Party

42:41

at least are more comfortable

42:43

talking about whereas

42:45

for reform and for the Greens arguably it's

42:47

the cultural and identity issues which proved to

42:50

be more important but we are now as

42:52

a society one where and it's true in

42:54

this latest I mean I'm not suggesting to

42:56

you that Brexit explains why the Labour Party

42:59

is where it is that isn't the case.

43:01

The truth is the mistakes

43:03

and the difficulties that have

43:06

beset this government arguably

43:08

some of them not in its own making but

43:10

some of them are some of them of their

43:12

own making that in the end it's those issues

43:14

which have driven the dynamics of party support

43:16

but the structure of who is more

43:18

likely to vote conservative who is more

43:20

likely to vote Labour who is more

43:22

likely to reform who is more likely

43:24

to vote that

43:27

structure is still very clearly there. Brexit

43:29

is part of that structure as our

43:31

culture and identity issues more broadly and

43:33

to that extent at least now as

43:36

a society we are not just arguing

43:38

about inequality and left-right issues we're also

43:40

arguing about culture identity etc. So

43:43

John has told us about the problems

43:45

now let's try and find some solutions.

43:47

What would John Curtis do to fix

43:50

the system? Well in part

43:52

of course it is about personal behaviour

43:54

I mean I think one of the

43:57

difficulties with the whole Brexit debate was was

44:00

the way in which

44:02

sometimes convention, understandings,

44:04

et cetera, were not adhered

44:07

to. And that

44:09

we've entered a rather more

44:11

robust political era where

44:14

politicians seem to be

44:16

willing, I'm not picking

44:19

out anybody in particular or any particular one side,

44:21

but there is perhaps a great intensity of politicians

44:23

now to want to be able

44:25

to pursue arguments that they think will win

44:27

them votes without necessarily

44:29

always been thinking about, well,

44:32

is this a part

44:34

of the game? Is it good

44:36

for our politics in general that

44:38

perhaps we ride roughshod over conventions,

44:41

et cetera, that perhaps we are

44:43

inclined to exaggerate arguments? Now, this

44:45

information has always been there in our politics. Remember, the

44:48

Zenovia of letter of 1924, but

44:50

I think, shall we say, one

44:52

way of putting it, maybe we

44:54

could do with a few more gentlemen in our

44:56

politics and rather fewer players?

44:59

John Curtis there on what he would do, but

45:02

he's not the only big thinker

45:04

with big thoughts on how

45:06

to fix the political system. So

45:09

we thought we'd ask some other big

45:11

thinkers for their one way to fix

45:13

politics, starting with Sir Anthony Salton, biographer

45:16

of many prime ministers. The

45:23

2024 general election sees trust in British

45:25

politics at an all time low. After

45:28

14 years of conservative government, we

45:31

see no growth, we see inequality

45:33

growing, however, we see Britain's place

45:36

in the world weaker than

45:38

it was, the union weaker, public

45:40

services weaker, and yet

45:42

we've been told that it is

45:44

much better. It isn't. Politicians

45:47

need to be honest about their

45:49

own failings, honest about what they

45:51

can achieve and will do, and honest about

45:53

what they have achieved. It's

45:56

just one thing that got me trippin' It's just one

45:58

thing that got me Next,

46:03

Hannah White from the Institute for

46:05

Government. Being in government isn't easy,

46:07

but as the IFG will always tell you,

46:10

there are ways to be a more effective

46:12

government, more worthy of public trust. Over-promising, lurching

46:14

in different directions and then blaming everyone and

46:16

everything else for failure does nothing for

46:18

public trust in politics. So we need

46:21

a change in approach. What people want

46:23

is a government that sets in achievable

46:25

priorities, announces them in parliament, agrees on

46:27

a strategy to deliver them and then

46:29

gets on and does it. Claire

46:32

Ainslie, former director of policy to

46:34

Kears Starmer. The single thing I

46:36

would do to restore trust in politics

46:38

is for the next Prime Minister to

46:40

focus on improving wages and reducing costs.

46:43

I are living standards for

46:45

working class people and communities across Britain.

46:48

No gimmicks, no meaningless slogans,

46:50

just tell people that's what you're going

46:52

to do and then do it. Philip

46:55

Cowley is a political scientist at Queen

46:58

Mary University London. I would say that

47:00

you can't restore trust in politics because

47:02

we've never had trust

47:04

in politics and maybe that's quite a

47:06

good thing. You might

47:08

want maybe slightly lower levels of

47:10

utter cynicism about politics, but

47:13

you can't restore something you've never had

47:15

in the first place. Michelle Doyle Wildman

47:17

is chief executive of the Political Studies

47:19

Association. Staying trust in our

47:22

politics comes from the public

47:24

believing that politicians and institutions

47:26

are acting in the public

47:28

interest and with absolute integrity.

47:31

Part of this is returning to setting out

47:33

a clear vision for our country and

47:35

having evidence led long-term policies to

47:38

get us there. Tim Bell, professor

47:40

of politics at Queen Mary University London. The

47:44

one thing I do to restore trust in politics

47:46

is to persuade politicians to treat us like adults

47:48

that stop telling us what we want to hear

47:50

and instead tell us what we need to hear.

47:52

The problem is that also means that we, the

47:54

voters, are going to have to stop insisting on

47:56

having our cake and eating it too. In life

47:58

you don't get something for nothing. All

48:00

of us, public and parties alike, need to grow up

48:02

a bit and admit that that's the case in politics

48:04

too. And Rachel Wolf,

48:06

who wrote the 2019 Conservative

48:08

Manifesto, is a founding partner at

48:11

Public First. Don't make

48:13

promises you don't intend to keep. It

48:22

might take more than just one thing to fix our

48:24

politics, but thank you to all of our big thinkers

48:26

for their big thoughts. That's all we've got time for

48:28

today's episode of Politics Out the Boing Bits. Don't forget

48:31

to head over to How to Win an Election if

48:33

you haven't already done so and there'll be bonus episodes

48:35

on Friday too. But for now, from me, Matt Jodie

48:37

is goodbye! Hold

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