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0:30

This. Episode includes references to disordered

0:32

eating. Please listen with care. There

0:35

she is. Name either a woman

0:37

hi, how are you doing Well

0:39

You know I'm doing okay. But

0:42

ever since we spoke to this

0:44

week's guest I have had the

0:46

year worm of the century accurately.

0:48

I can get it out of

0:50

my head and all I can

0:52

think day and night is you

0:54

take the good, you take the

0:56

bad, You take them all in

0:58

there. you have the facts of

1:00

life. Lawyers.

1:07

American ally. That's

1:09

a lie. The

1:11

theme song to our gas favorite

1:13

show of all time Advantage of

1:15

Life that the classic. Is.

1:17

A killing you Israelis had now quite

1:20

a while with. It's. Killing

1:22

Me. But it's taking on such new

1:24

meaning because all I do is sing

1:26

it to myself and I keep thinking

1:28

about. All. Of the good

1:31

and bad that I take every

1:33

day as a fact of my

1:35

life. Oh, Yeah

1:37

yeah, uma, how And parenting

1:39

is the number one of

1:41

that? Like. There. Are

1:44

such high highs and such low elo

1:46

crippling Lone Ray So I'm wondering what's

1:48

the good and the bad of parenting

1:50

for you right now? The bad is

1:53

simple and I really nailed it down.

1:55

Over the past five years of being

1:57

a mom knocking him at his that.

2:00

There is no actual

2:02

pause button. Like once you

2:05

start parenthood, it's funny and

2:07

it's also incredibly claustrophobic that

2:09

like there's no time off

2:11

and there's no way to

2:13

like, sometimes I say like, I

2:15

just need to like reset

2:18

my whole entire internal system. And I

2:20

know I can. Cause

2:22

even when in a way I have like guilt

2:25

or I'm thinking about them or there's like a

2:27

running ticker in my head. So I don't know,

2:29

I guess that's the worst part about parenting. Do

2:31

you know what I mean? Yeah. The

2:33

24 sevenness of it. What about for you? Well,

2:35

I mean, I think it's a similar thing. And

2:38

mine is that like, I

2:40

cannot function on no sleep.

2:45

I can't make any good decisions.

2:48

And my kids have lately just not

2:50

been sleeping. So that's like the bad

2:52

of it. Like I'm just like, I

2:56

don't know how to parent you or

2:58

if I'm doing this right or how

3:00

do I get you to sleep? How

3:02

do I convince you to want to

3:04

sleep? How can I sleep? Like, yeah,

3:06

that's the bad. Yeah,

3:08

that's a toughie. I'll tell you what that

3:10

is. That's very high up there on

3:12

my list as well. Yeah. Well, what's

3:15

the good though? So this

3:17

week my son has

3:19

not been sleeping and it has been

3:21

brutal. And I

3:23

was sitting on a chair in his

3:25

room in the dark cause this is the only way

3:28

I can get to sleep. I have

3:30

to sit there in the dark while he falls

3:32

asleep and he had been screaming at me. I

3:34

was like, this cannot be worse if

3:36

I tried. And then all of

3:38

a sudden I hear his teeny tiny little voice

3:40

in the crib and he says, mommy

3:43

poopy butt, daddy

3:45

poopy butt, Violet poopy

3:47

butt. And he's going through the whole

3:50

family and he's just having like the

3:52

time of his life. For

3:54

middle and last, really? Mommy poopy butt.

3:57

I mean, he went through the whole family. He was named an

3:59

aunt. uncles I think you were in there and I

4:03

just thought to myself I couldn't

4:06

love a little creature more.

4:09

That's so precious.

4:11

Especially at the moment when you're

4:14

breaking down. Yeah it was I I

4:16

had just seconds before thought like I'm gonna

4:18

have to leave and start a new life.

4:21

So it was a real swing.

4:24

It was a good and a bad

4:26

and that is the fact of life.

4:28

That's it though it's it's only ever

4:31

operating you know like the one to

4:33

ten scale. I'm at the one or

4:36

I'm at that ten. Yeah. You know me.

4:40

High highs low lows. No

4:42

I've never been a five. What do

4:44

you think that your best part of

4:46

being a mom is? Well I

4:49

think that before I became a mother

4:51

I have always and this is a

4:53

lot of people struggled with

4:56

like enoughness. Am I doing enough? Should I

4:58

be more? Could I get better? Like am

5:00

I enough? Is what I'm pursuing enough? Like

5:02

all this stuff and I think that for

5:05

the past five years like ever since I had

5:08

my children I feel

5:10

this deep-seated peace

5:13

and contentment. Just

5:15

a knowing like this this is

5:18

it. This is everything. This is

5:20

everything I will

5:22

ever find truly meaningful

5:25

and like sustained happiness. Do

5:27

you know what I mean? And I don't know I think that's

5:30

my thing. It's that it's it is the

5:32

best thing you know. Yeah I love

5:34

that. I also really love that you

5:36

have this like really profound thought and

5:39

my best part of being a mom is

5:41

mommy poopie butt. But

5:45

that's probably how I arrived at it

5:47

just hearing yours. Just knowing that brings

5:49

me a lot of

5:51

contentment. Our

5:53

guest today is a mom to two

5:55

boys just like me so she's very

5:57

familiar with the good and bad of

6:00

of being a parent. Yes, she is. Alison

6:02

Rosen is a podcaster, writer,

6:05

and award-winning interviewer. She

6:07

gained notoriety as a news girl and later

6:09

co-host on the popular podcast, The Adam Carolla

6:12

Show. She has hosted her

6:14

own podcast called Alison Rosen is Your New

6:16

Best Friend since 2012, where

6:18

she has candid conversations with various guests.

6:21

I'm a huge, huge fan of

6:23

her podcast. You sure are. She

6:26

also hosts the parenting podcast Childish.

6:29

She is a best friend to all who listen to

6:31

her. She is funny and

6:33

smart and incredibly empathetic and honest about

6:35

everything in her life. And

6:38

she probably learned it all from watching

6:40

her favorite show, The Facts of Life.

6:43

Oh yeah. The show premiered in 1979 and ran through

6:45

1988. It

6:48

revolved around a group of girls who

6:50

live and attend school at the fictional

6:52

Eastland School for Girls, a

6:55

prestigious all-female boarding school.

6:57

There was outgoing Tootie, rich

7:00

girl Blair, Joe the tomboy,

7:02

and the witty, funny

7:04

Natalie. The four main

7:06

characters all lived together and were looked

7:08

after by their house mom, Mrs. Edna

7:11

Garrett. Mrs. Garrett was always

7:13

there to help guide them when they

7:15

needed it, and the show dealt with

7:17

so much, from peer pressure and relationships

7:20

to the serious topics of drug

7:22

use and eating disorders. And

7:24

we're so excited to talk about a

7:26

mom character who's different from what we've covered

7:29

so far. You know, we

7:31

all have people who serve as

7:33

maternal figures in our life, teachers,

7:35

wise neighbors, in my case camp

7:38

counselors, and they are

7:40

so important. Moms

7:42

can't be everything to everyone, so it's a

7:44

dream to find someone like Mrs. Garrett. I'm

7:48

Sabrina Kohlberg. And I'm Andi Mitchell.

7:51

From ABC Audio and Good Morning America,

7:53

this is Pop Culture Moms. We

7:56

were so excited to talk to Allison about her

7:58

love of the facts of life. The

8:00

Mrs. Garrett's she's had in her life, her

8:02

struggle to get pregnant and so much more.

8:05

Our conversation with Allison Rosen after this quick

8:08

break. We've

8:15

got the exclusive view behind the

8:17

table every day right after the

8:19

show while the topics are still hot.

8:21

The ladies go deeper into the moments that make

8:23

the view, the view. The Views Behind the Table podcast. Listen

8:26

wherever you get your podcast. This

8:32

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have

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10:19

Alison. Hi and welcome to

10:21

Pop Culture! Mom's on as you

10:24

know because eyes message to about

10:26

as many times Sabrina knows our

10:28

entire team as I am. Your

10:30

number one says yes I've been

10:32

listening to you for I want

10:35

to see fifteen years but I

10:37

his least ten years on Alison

10:39

Rosen his new best friend. So

10:41

I know you as your own

10:44

personality. I know you sharing your

10:46

life and being vulnerable and connecting

10:48

with your audience. Directly, and especially

10:51

since he started talking about

10:53

motherhood. I really think that.

10:55

That's open to even a new channel in

10:57

my heart. We you all Braveheart! Thank you

11:00

so so so much Thank you for listening.

11:02

And thank you for your kind words. I'm.

11:04

I think that all of

11:06

this my being a public

11:08

person, is driven on some

11:10

level by just. Wanting.

11:13

To feel like someone hears

11:15

me and is like. You're

11:17

okay with fundamentally that pilot my

11:20

core. We're here now so. The

11:22

fact that I'm bit. You

11:25

and listen to and relate and

11:27

all that mean so much on

11:29

pop culture. Moms were always. Talking

11:31

about motherhood and pop culture and

11:33

what we can learn from shows

11:35

that we love and I know

11:37

you love the facts of last.

11:40

That's all about these. Four

11:42

Girls and a boarding school

11:44

called Eastland and Their Houses

11:46

Mother. Is Mrs. Garrett right? So

11:49

what did you like about sex

11:51

life? So. I cannot remember

11:53

a time that I didn't like. Facts of

11:55

Life. I think I started watching. It when

11:57

I was really young. man

12:00

childhood and into adulthood. I've just had

12:02

such affection for this show. And I

12:05

was trying to think, was it Mrs.

12:08

Garrett or was it the camaraderie

12:10

and the community of girls? I

12:12

think both things appealed to me.

12:15

Because I liked Facts of Life so much, I wanted

12:17

to go to boarding school. In retrospect, I

12:19

was such a late bloomer. I was

12:23

not a tough kid at all. I think I

12:25

would not have done well at boarding school at

12:27

all. So I'm glad that my

12:29

parents didn't entertain that. But there was something

12:32

really like wish fulfillment about

12:34

the idea of being

12:37

independent from your parents in

12:39

that way and just being

12:41

surrounded by friends. And then

12:43

Mrs. Garrett, who was there

12:45

but not in any sort of oppressive sense, she

12:48

was just kind of there when they needed her.

12:50

I love that Mrs. Garrett that

12:52

we're talking about a mom who's not just like

12:55

a biological like gave birth to mother. I think

12:57

there's a lot of value in talking about just

12:59

mother characters, mother figures. Did

13:01

you actually ask your parents if you

13:03

could go to boarding school? Were

13:06

they like, oh, let's not even start this conversation. I

13:08

think I did. And I think, yeah, I mean, they

13:10

were hesitant to even send me to summer camp. And

13:12

the truth is I did go, I convinced them to

13:14

let me go to summer camp. And I went to

13:16

summer camp for six days. And it was six

13:19

of the worst days of my young life. Oh, no.

13:21

I did not have a good time. I mean,

13:24

it was just very, it was very

13:26

rustic. Very rustic. Yeah, too rustic. There

13:28

was vaulting. Do you know

13:30

what vaulting is? It's like gymnastics on

13:33

top of a horse. So you like get

13:35

on the horse's back while it's moving. And

13:37

then you like put your leg out and

13:39

like imagine one synchronized swimmer on the back

13:41

of a horse. Now how old were you?

13:44

I was 10. This is a lawsuit waiting

13:46

to happen. I know. Putting a kid vaulting

13:48

on a horse. Was it supposed to be

13:50

six days or did you ask to go

13:52

home early? It was supposed to be six

13:55

days. It was just a short session. So

13:57

you made it the whole time. Yeah, I

13:59

did. Yeah, I

14:01

fantasized about writing

14:04

a letter to my parents and

14:06

having them pick me up. I don't even think, there

14:09

was a phone on the camp somewhere, but

14:11

I don't know what kind of strings you

14:13

had to pull to get access to this

14:15

phone. But I just kind of

14:18

shut down and just went through the motions. I probably

14:20

peed, I think I peed like once

14:22

the entire time, which is crazy because

14:24

I pee once an hour now. It's

14:27

not okay. All

14:30

of that is to say, yeah, I

14:32

wasn't cut out for camp and I wouldn't have been cut out

14:35

for boarding school. And I think I did talk to

14:37

my parents about it and they were just like, no,

14:40

you're too young. You

14:42

wouldn't like it. Well, I

14:44

think that Sabrina and I talk about this a lot

14:46

that I think we would

14:48

have benefited from going to an all

14:50

girls school. I think there's like a

14:52

lot of value, especially we were both

14:54

bigger gals when we were in

14:56

middle school, high school. And I

15:00

think there's like a painful

15:02

self consciousness and contortion that

15:04

goes on for all girls.

15:06

But maybe I'll just say for us, like

15:08

I can say specifically that we felt like

15:12

you didn't want to be too smart to like raise

15:14

your hand all the time. You didn't want to be

15:16

seen. And

15:18

I think there's some comfort in

15:20

being around all girls and getting

15:23

to explore different things.

15:26

Like, you're in the play. Like just so many things

15:28

that I think the awareness of

15:30

the other, which is males at the time

15:32

was just too, I think

15:35

overwhelming to me and like made me

15:37

even more painfully self conscious. What do

15:39

you think? I also

15:41

was a bigger gal, kind of up and

15:44

down, but I had

15:46

been bigger all throughout kindergarten through

15:48

eighth. And then I

15:51

went on, sometimes need a trigger warning just

15:53

in terms of like disordered eating and stuff. I

15:56

had a lot of anxiety about diet and the summer

15:58

after sixth grade. couple years

16:01

but not entire years, you know, where I like had

16:03

lost weight and then I would come back to school

16:05

and everyone was like, wow, Alison, you know, and then

16:07

I would sort of gain it over the course of the year and

16:09

then just like that forever. But

16:12

I remember feeling

16:15

intensely self-conscious in eighth

16:18

grade. It was raining,

16:20

so we had to eat lunch inside.

16:22

And I remember just sitting there

16:24

trying to bring my sandwich or my

16:27

apple or whatever it was to my

16:29

mouth and like I

16:31

just felt like my skin was on fire.

16:33

I was so self-conscious and

16:35

I just could barely, I could

16:38

barely like swallow. That

16:41

being said, I don't know that it was because there

16:43

were boys there. I think it had to do with

16:46

everyone. I was self-conscious around girls

16:48

too. When

16:50

I was reading about Facts of Life before

16:52

this interview, I said, I'm

16:54

surprised I remember weight being a topic

16:56

on the show. Piece of celery,

16:59

say your thoughts. You

17:01

kiddie, I'm going on a

17:03

starvation diet. I'm going to lose

17:05

10 pounds by Saturday if it kills me.

17:07

The girls were trying to lose weight or

17:09

Mrs. Garrett once he came back and had

17:11

obviously lost weight, right? I'm on a diet.

17:14

My name will be 30 years.

17:19

But like, apparently there was a

17:21

lot of like weight issues on

17:23

the set. Like that they at

17:25

one point brought a scale in and like

17:28

the girls would weigh themselves and realize that

17:30

that's actually negatively impacting them. There was like

17:32

a lot of like just on screen and

17:34

off. Weight was like a real

17:37

issue. I remember hearing about that. I think it was

17:39

maybe it started in the later years

17:41

of the show because it ran forever. And I

17:43

don't remember this, but I've heard about it. They would

17:45

be referred to as the facts of life. Oh,

17:48

I haven't even heard that one. I know

17:50

some of the actors said that it was

17:53

tough being on air during their most awkward

17:55

years because they were going through puberty on

17:57

air and then just how how

17:59

cruel. cool listeners could be. But

18:02

I remember an episode, they

18:04

confronted bulimia and

18:06

it starts by there's some

18:08

conversation, one of the characters, or maybe

18:11

it's like an ad or something and it's like,

18:13

you could be skinny as a pencil.

18:15

And then Natalie, who was always overweight

18:17

on the show, was like, I would

18:19

rather be a chubby magic

18:21

marker or something like that. But

18:24

I don't know how

18:26

much I myself was

18:29

aware of their discussion of weight

18:31

on the show. But in

18:34

retrospect, I will say I probably

18:37

felt better watching a show where

18:39

they had normal bodies. If

18:41

it had been a show where everyone was stick thin, I

18:44

don't know that I would have felt as

18:47

comfortable watching it. Like I wouldn't

18:49

have, you know, related to them as

18:51

much as I did and imagined myself

18:53

as the fifth friend. And

18:55

then did you have a Mrs. Garrett? I

18:57

don't think I did. I had

19:00

a young mom, not like teenage mom, but

19:02

she was 24 or 25 when

19:06

she had me, which is totally normal for the

19:09

time. But now it seems like, wow, that's so young.

19:12

Her parents, so my grandparents, they

19:14

both died when I was six.

19:16

And then my dad's parents were

19:19

alive for a lot longer. But none of

19:21

my grandparents were particularly nice. So

19:24

I didn't have that, like what

19:26

we think grandparents are supposed to be. You

19:29

know, honestly, I would say my Mrs.

19:33

Garrett's have come in

19:35

the form of therapists.

19:38

I've been very lucky to

19:40

have therapists that I really

19:42

liked and that have really made a huge

19:44

difference in my life. And they've all been older women.

19:47

So not necessarily

19:49

in the Mrs. Garrett mold,

19:52

but those are, I think

19:54

the way that I can most like accept

19:56

that kind of wise maternal

19:59

energy as well. like in the form of a

20:01

therapist. I had this experience

20:03

recently. I volunteer in my son's class once a

20:05

week, and I love it. It's like my favorite thing I do.

20:08

And there's this kid in his class who

20:11

has taken an interest in me, sounds

20:13

wrong, but like just become my little buddy.

20:16

He wants to sit next to me, and he

20:18

just really wants to be near me, and

20:23

he came up to me

20:25

the other day, and he's like, I

20:27

really missed you. It's

20:29

so sweet, yeah. But

20:33

I was asking my own therapist,

20:35

what do you make of this?

20:38

And she said it sounds like he is

20:41

looking for a maternal

20:43

figure, which I don't know anything

20:45

about his home life, but

20:47

I think I might be his Mrs.

20:49

Garrett. Oh, that's exciting. You

20:51

have a really big momma. You

20:54

do, like you have a natural warmth.

20:57

So I mean, I can imagine why, but

20:59

that must feel really good too. It does.

21:01

You're putting out a good energy that if

21:03

these little kids who need it are coming

21:06

up and they're keeping it at home. And

21:08

then I was on, so like they get

21:10

out at 225, and I would say like

21:12

210. I can't

21:14

figure out what the pattern is, but on some days then they

21:16

go out to the yard, and

21:18

this one kid was like

21:21

chasing this other kid, and the other kid was

21:23

clearly in distress. So

21:25

I intervened, and then later

21:27

it happened again, and that kid kind of

21:29

came, it was kind of like hiding behind

21:31

me. And then I

21:33

was thinking, all I have is

21:35

a lanyard. Like I'm not licensed, I don't have

21:38

training. I'm not other than just being the end

21:40

of being. I need to be

21:42

careful that I'm not overstepping my bounds, but at

21:44

the same time, I'm witnessing something that seems like

21:46

bullying, or if not bullying, like there's a kid

21:48

who's being bothered, and I don't want to just

21:50

let it go on. So then I mentioned to

21:52

the teacher, and then she kind of stepped in,

21:55

but yeah, I have decided that I work at

21:57

this school now, and I've taken on a lot

21:59

of work. a lot of responsibility. I'm

22:02

gonna find my own whistle. I

22:04

mean, maybe a stopwatch. You're like

22:07

Mrs. Garrett class monitor. Exactly.

22:10

I'm like Citizen School

22:12

Monitor. More

22:14

of our interview with Alison Rosen after

22:17

this break. I

22:23

want to tell you about a show I think you're gonna love. After

22:26

bedtime with big little feelings. Modern

22:28

parenting is a doozy. There's never been

22:30

more pressure to be perfect with social

22:32

media readily available at our fingertips, mixed

22:35

with total isolation and no help. Where's

22:38

that village everyone talks about? Consider

22:40

after bedtime your village. Led by

22:42

Kristin and Dina, founders of the

22:44

largest online parenting community, Big Little

22:46

Feelings. If you didn't catch our

22:49

episode with Kristin and Dina right here on

22:51

Pop Culture Moms, we talk about parenting with

22:53

confidence and empathy and our favorite cartoon moms.

22:56

After bedtime unpacks things we're all experiencing

22:58

but too ashamed to talk about. Imperfect

23:01

marriages, miscarriages, managing toddler mania,

23:03

apologizing to our kids and

23:05

everything in between. You'll

23:08

leave with actionable, realistic tips to

23:10

make this whole parenting thing smoother.

23:12

Small changes, big impact. Listen

23:14

to and follow After Bedtime with Big Little Feelings

23:16

on the Odyssey app and wherever you get your

23:18

podcasts. Hi, I'm Frances Frye.

23:20

And I'm Anne Morris. And we are

23:23

the hosts of a new TED Podcast

23:25

called Fixable. We've helped leaders at some

23:27

of the world's most competitive companies solve

23:29

all kinds of problems. On our show,

23:31

we'll pull back the curtain and give

23:33

you the type of honest, unfiltered advice

23:35

we usually reserve for top executives. Maybe

23:37

you have a coworker with boundary issues,

23:39

or you want to know how to inspire and motivate

23:41

your team. Give us a call and we'll help you

23:44

set the problems you're set up. I'm

23:46

Fixable wherever you live in. our

24:00

mom to two kids, you just mentioned

24:02

your son, and you were very open

24:05

about your difficulties when you were conceiving.

24:07

What was that experience like, and what

24:09

was it like sharing it with so

24:12

many people? So, I did IVF. I

24:15

have endometriosis, and I

24:17

had endometriosis surgery in 2011 where

24:19

they removed

24:22

endometriomas, which are cysts that were on both of

24:24

my ovaries. What I didn't

24:27

know is that surgery can

24:29

affect fertility quite a bit because

24:31

anytime they're cutting into the ovary,

24:33

they're removing eggs. So, I

24:35

don't know if it was my age or if

24:37

it was that surgery or if it's just endometriosis

24:40

in general that made it so that it was

24:42

very difficult for me to get pregnant. I

24:45

was a product of DARE, and I was a product

24:47

of all the safe sex

24:49

conversations, and I just

24:52

had it in my head that

24:55

the goal of being

24:57

sexually active is to

24:59

not get pregnant. So,

25:01

I thought that once you stop preventing it,

25:04

it just happens. And I would like, when

25:06

I first became sexually active, which was, I

25:08

was a late bloomer, so I was 20,

25:11

I remember even

25:14

though we used a condom, I still

25:16

took a pregnancy test. That's how much I

25:18

was so sure. If someone ejaculated

25:21

two blocks over, I'm like, uh-oh. It might

25:29

have found me. So,

25:33

it was news to me that it was going

25:35

to be difficult for me and that it was

25:37

difficult for me. And my

25:39

gynecologist at the time said,

25:42

try for six months and then if you

25:45

can't get pregnant, go to a reproductive

25:47

endocrinologist and you'll give them a lot of money and they'll get

25:49

you pregnant. So, I believe that's how it worked. And

25:51

then when we finally did go to

25:53

the reproductive endocrinologist, that's when I

25:55

found out you can give them a lot of money

25:58

and you still might not be able to have babies.

26:00

Like I had to entertain the idea that

26:02

there's no guarantee that this will work. I

26:05

feel so, so lucky that

26:07

we were able to have kids

26:09

because a lot of it was really

26:12

trying to accept that this

26:14

might not work. So

26:17

in terms of the process of being open, it

26:19

just I can't imagine

26:23

another way. So yeah,

26:25

it was helpful for me. And

26:27

then I got feedback from other people that appreciated that

26:29

I was talking about it too. Since it's at

26:31

that time, I think not that many people were that open

26:33

about it. Yeah. I mean, you did when you

26:37

say you covered it, like, I mean, every

26:39

week you had like an update, you were

26:41

going through it in real time. Like nowadays,

26:44

I guess sharing because of social media, it's

26:46

so everywhere that people

26:48

are open about things. But I think that

26:50

was especially vulnerable because now that I've had

26:52

children, I'm very aware of just the

26:55

hormonal ride of how

26:57

raw you feel like a raw nerve.

26:59

So it's like very admirable to be

27:02

sharing that in real time for the sake

27:04

of like, you know, transparency. And then also,

27:06

yeah, you are helping

27:08

other women that probably do feel

27:11

isolated and like they don't

27:13

know what's going on or is something wrong with

27:15

their bodies or is it going to happen? I

27:18

don't know. I think that honesty is always helpful in

27:20

that way. Right. I mean, it seems like people wait

27:22

until they're like six months pregnant at this point to

27:24

announce it on social media. I don't know when I

27:26

actually announced on social media, but because

27:28

I had brought the listeners along on

27:30

the whole journey, as soon

27:32

as I got a positive

27:34

pregnancy test, so we're talking about

27:36

like days into it, I told

27:39

everyone because I felt like I

27:41

owed them that. And

27:43

also, I felt like it'd be weird if

27:45

I'm telling everyone what's going on. And then

27:47

suddenly I go silent, it's going to become

27:50

clear. Yeah. And then when I did announce

27:52

that I was pregnant, and I knew that

27:55

there's no guarantee that I'm not going to have

27:57

a miscarriage. Like it's I'm announcing it early, but

27:59

I just. I decided the thing

28:01

is if I do have a miscarriage,

28:04

I'm gonna wanna talk about that too. So

28:07

I may as well just be open. But I remember getting

28:09

direct messages from listeners like

28:12

in the middle of the night, that night, because the

28:14

episode went up that evening. This being like,

28:16

oh my God, I'm crying. I'm so happy for you. Like I feel

28:18

like we all felt like we got pregnant. Yeah,

28:21

yes, yes. And I

28:24

wonder like just normally

28:26

being a mom leads to so much guilt.

28:28

And sometimes you're like, I hate

28:31

this. And then you feel

28:33

guilty that you hate it. But with your

28:35

circumstance where you were trying so

28:37

hard and you wanted it so bad,

28:39

do you feel guilty on days when you're

28:41

like, I don't want to be a mom

28:43

today? Before that even, I tried

28:46

so hard to get pregnant and then when I

28:48

was pregnant, I realized, oh, I hate being pregnant.

28:50

I don't like this. I like-

28:52

Oh, it's the worst. Yeah,

28:55

like I like that I was pregnant.

28:58

Both because I wanted a kid and because

29:00

it was like, yes, it works. We spent

29:02

all that time and it worked. Thank God.

29:06

But then the actual feeling

29:10

of being pregnant, I did not like

29:13

it. I gained a ton of weight both times. And it

29:15

was just, you know, it's uncomfortable. And it's like, you

29:17

feel nauseated and all of that. And

29:20

so then I really felt weird

29:22

complaining about it because it was

29:25

like, I got this thing

29:27

that I have wanted for so long and

29:29

here I am now, this wine,

29:32

I felt like I was whining, you know? So that,

29:34

I felt guilty about that. And then yeah, I

29:36

had a rough birth with Elliot that he's my

29:38

first, really rough and

29:42

kind of traumatic. And then I had postpartum

29:44

depression, which for the longest time, I

29:47

just thought it's just baby blues. And

29:50

then I remember he was born in February and

29:52

around July, I acknowledged

29:54

this is more than that. And at

29:57

that time I was not in therapy.

30:00

Um, so that's when I found

30:02

my therapist that I still go to now and

30:05

she's Amazing and helps me

30:07

so much and I also

30:09

for the first time I went on I had never

30:11

been on an antidepressant I was sort of fearful of

30:13

them. I don't know. I just had like these hang-ups

30:16

But I was like i'll do I just want to feel better like

30:18

i'll do anything I think it's probably time like

30:21

I acknowledge that something. Yeah, I

30:23

am crying all the time

30:26

I feel sorry for myself. I

30:28

feel young and

30:31

lonely Like I remember

30:33

saying I feel like I'm

30:35

just like alone On

30:37

an iceberg in the middle

30:39

of nowhere and the world

30:42

is a cold Scary like

30:44

bad place like that's where I was

30:46

mentally And so much

30:48

of that is being tired, but it was

30:50

it was more um But

30:53

I mean once I asked for help as kind of

30:56

cliche as this is Very

30:58

quickly. I started feeling better and I

31:00

noticed it in things like oh i'm singing to my

31:02

child like I don't think I sang It

31:05

for so long So then

31:08

that was sort of like my my

31:10

journey back to feeling okay But

31:12

you know something about social media and

31:14

people sharing now Especially

31:16

on tick tock a lot of people talk

31:19

about how difficult motherhood is I

31:21

think that's kind of the norm at least on my feed

31:24

But at the time there wasn't

31:26

that much talk about how difficult those

31:28

early days of motherhood can be I

31:32

imagined I was going to be

31:34

in the room where I delivered and they were going to hand

31:36

me my baby and I was going to look down And

31:39

be overcome with like this is a feeling

31:42

unlike anything i've ever had and this is

31:44

a love that is deeper than anything I've

31:47

ever had And

31:49

that was not at all how it

31:51

went you know, they had to

31:54

Rush him to the nikkyu So

31:56

They like handed him to me for a second,

31:58

but he was swaddled like. That is good to

32:00

scare that I had like and button my gown pick

32:02

it has been described as guess ah I'm. I

32:05

felt I just felt numb at I didn't

32:07

get to hold him for real till the

32:09

next morning which was. The. Weirdest like

32:11

was awful thing and then I was looking

32:13

at him for a long time like once

32:15

your home and see like who is this

32:17

little person. I. Don't

32:20

feel. Like. Of course I

32:22

love him and I want to protect him and take care

32:24

of him. But. I don't feel

32:26

this shift inside that I was

32:28

told I was going to feel.

32:31

Young. See expectations versus the real in.

32:33

it's like it just speaks to. Even

32:36

if you have a very healthy

32:38

mindset, we have. Thoughts.

32:40

About what we sink a good

32:42

selfless are there is and feals

32:45

and acts like and I think

32:47

that. I. Really think

32:49

every mother at some point hopefully it

32:51

occurs sooner rather than later. Like has

32:53

to come to terms with like. I

32:57

am not the mother I saw was

32:59

the best mother. I am not for

33:01

selfless and it's not a bad thing

33:04

to realize this, but it does feel

33:06

crushing when you have to like, kind

33:08

of admit that to yourself that like

33:10

this, this unhealthy, frankly idea of like

33:13

what a good mom is is like.

33:15

so unrealistic, unattainable, like it's impossible, know

33:17

and stealing. It's like there's a lot

33:20

of an. Unraveling.

33:22

The has to have been. I think it really is like.

33:26

Even. If you go in and you're

33:28

like I'm gonna be normal about this like

33:30

I can't be a superhero, still think you

33:32

can be a superhero like he still would

33:34

like to present that way. That's a good

33:36

point. I'm so glad you mentioned that I

33:39

had forgotten about that. I did have to

33:41

confront a lot of belief that I had

33:43

that I wasn't even aware I had. You

33:45

know, I had a really. Opinionated

33:48

Dad. I guess I'm of course

33:50

because of the very close to

33:52

him. I just internalize a lot

33:54

of his ideas about what makes

33:56

for a good mother and. A.

34:00

A lot of those are antiquated

34:02

and not realistic. And

34:05

my mom didn't work, she stayed home

34:08

with us. And so I never thought

34:10

through how am I

34:12

gonna work and have a kid? Like I

34:14

just figured I'm just gonna hold my baby

34:16

in one arm and I'll like, you know,

34:18

write emails and do my podcast with the

34:21

baby and all that. So I

34:23

felt really guilty about

34:25

getting childcare, which is

34:28

so silly. Like to anyone

34:30

who is pregnant and also works

34:32

or even just wants sanity, like line up some

34:34

childcare. You're gonna wanna be able to take a

34:36

break. So I felt

34:39

guilty about that. And then even getting, you

34:41

know, we have a nanny now, she's

34:43

in New Zealand right now and I hope she's having a

34:45

good time. Everything's falling apart. I'm just

34:47

kidding. Let's be nice. We're

34:50

fine. But yeah, I felt really

34:54

guilty about getting a nanny. And

34:59

I wouldn't even, on air, I wouldn't even

35:01

refer to our nanny as I would recall

35:03

her a babysitter because I thought

35:05

that sounds less, whatever negative

35:08

thing, having a nanny sounds. Like a

35:10

babysitter is just coming over for a few

35:12

minutes. You know, you can pretend and you're

35:14

like, no nannies there more. And I remember

35:16

feeling the first time we had childcare and

35:21

I left the house, because of course there was that period of

35:23

time where like I have someone come over in the afternoons and

35:25

I was afraid to leave the house. The

35:27

first time I ever, I went to the grocery store

35:29

and then I just like sat in my car for

35:31

a while. And I think I did an

35:33

Instagram story about it. And someone

35:35

was like, oh yeah, that's totally a mom

35:37

thing, sitting in the car at a grocery store. And

35:42

I felt guilty about it then, but now

35:44

I don't even, I mean, thankfully that's, I

35:46

think the thing about also anyone in the

35:48

early stages of motherhood, if you're

35:50

struggling, it gets so much easier. It gets

35:52

better and you get stronger and you get more

35:55

used to like how hard it is. So

35:57

It's like the strength training. The

36:00

more you left similarly less like Se.

36:02

But I just I think that's very

36:04

true. Like you, I think. If.

36:07

Someone's listening and they want to have

36:09

children. but they don't yet. I think

36:12

they're probably like is easy sound, candid,

36:14

jaded, but it's like talk to. Any

36:17

mom this is. This is the

36:19

truth that like it is really

36:21

hard you have to confront what

36:23

you thought you would be with

36:25

what you can be and want

36:27

to be. and like I think

36:29

everybody it's definitely changes. There's always

36:31

something that changes I think. Also

36:33

what's interesting to us is how

36:35

your relationship with your mom changes.

36:37

So how is your relationship with

36:39

your mom seems to before you

36:41

had kids to what it's like

36:43

now that you have children. I'm.

36:46

I think. In. General I'm

36:48

probably. Gentler on

36:51

her now. Ah,

36:53

There's some things where. I'm.

36:56

Like I can't believe my parents did

36:59

that. I would never and I'm more

37:01

convinced that they were unfair or this

37:03

her bat now that. I have my own

37:05

kids. I watch how I handle it with them versus how

37:07

they handled it with. Me mostly like. You.

37:11

Know I had a pretty volatile every volatile

37:13

house with my dad had a temper and

37:15

my mom also. she was more calm but

37:18

she would lose her cool with us. So

37:20

ah I'm. In some ways I feel

37:22

like yeah that was not the best environments and I

37:24

wish I have a different and more convinced of it

37:26

now that I see how I am with my own

37:29

kids. But also I think I see the ways in

37:31

which I. Thought. My mom fall short

37:33

and I realize now and I'm more.

37:36

Okay with the fact that snowshoe the

37:38

human being. She. Was trying her

37:40

best and and was pretty good. Where

37:42

their minds that you realize that mom,

37:44

I want to be like that mom.

37:46

I mean I thought a least Keaton

37:49

was pretty good. From. family ties

37:51

is no yes yes he was

37:53

mob yeah although the ideal they

37:55

also allowed her to be pretty

37:57

human because one of my favorite

37:59

episodes I cannot remember the name of, but

38:03

Mallory auditions for a commercial

38:05

or something and then they

38:07

really like Elise, the mom.

38:10

And so they have her do a

38:12

commercial. And action! And

38:15

it's really hurtful to Mallory and she

38:17

tries to sabotage the commercial and it's

38:20

very hilarious. Cut! What is it?

38:24

Sorry, Mom, can I

38:26

have the ice cream at least? Right

38:29

behind the turtle. Sorry.

38:34

Here Mallory. Now

38:37

please don't interrupt. I won't. I'm

38:39

sorry. Can I just

38:41

get a spoon? No. But,

38:45

you know, that was a blind spot

38:47

for the mom, I think, to get

38:49

so carried away in the casting

38:53

directors taking an interest in her that she

38:55

didn't realize that it was hurting the feelings

38:57

of her daughter. And then, of course, you

38:59

could have a debate about what's the right

39:01

thing to do there. But

39:04

you know what's funny is I'm

39:06

saying I thought she was a good mom, but

39:08

I can definitely remember the episodes where she

39:11

put herself first and I

39:14

think I have this feeling that that wasn't the

39:16

best, but maybe that's still expecting her to be

39:18

an ideal mom. Now, Allison, you've

39:20

been so generous with your time, but

39:23

before we let you go, I need

39:25

to circle back to our original TV

39:27

show, The Facts of Life, and hit

39:29

you with some rapid-fire question. You

39:32

know how everyone's always trying to say they're the

39:34

Carrie or the Miranda or the Samantha of Sex

39:36

and the City? What I

39:38

want to know is if

39:41

we're talking Facts of Life, are

39:43

you the witty Natalie, the mischievous

39:45

Tootie, the tomboyish Jo, or the

39:47

fashionable Blair? I think I'm the

39:49

Natalie. She

39:53

was sort of sarcastic and

39:55

a writer, so

39:57

yeah, I think I'm right here. Would you ever send your

39:59

kids to boarding school? school? No. No.

40:01

Because I want them with me. I can't

40:04

imagine, you know, having

40:06

them leave the house sooner. I know, it's

40:08

hard. Now, is there a

40:10

fact of life that you, is really

40:12

important for you to teach your kids?

40:14

Yeah, one that I never was

40:17

taught and I would

40:20

love for them to internalize

40:23

is like, what do

40:25

you think about it? That's really all that matters. Great

40:28

fact of life. Excellent. And you never

40:30

hear that. Because you

40:33

really want to instill like

40:35

a trust in oneself. So

40:38

that's a really good one. There was one

40:40

day where Elliot had gotten

40:42

two fruit salads at school or something

40:44

and the kids were kind of

40:47

making fun of him. And I

40:50

was saying to him, like, well, what

40:52

do you think about taking two fruit salads? And he's

40:54

like, I don't really think it's that weird. And I

40:56

was like, yeah, I don't either. I don't know why

40:58

they thought it was funny. But and also the idea

41:00

of like, not everyone has to like you, which I

41:02

struggle with to this day. Oh, well,

41:04

come back on and teach me that

41:06

one. We need a full hour for

41:08

that one. I don't have enough time

41:10

today because that's my that is that's going

41:13

to be my life. We've a

41:16

lot more to get into some other time.

41:18

But thank you so much. Thank you so

41:20

much for having me on. You guys are

41:22

the best. Thank you. That

41:26

was our interview with Alison Rosen, host

41:28

of the podcast. Alison Rosen is your

41:30

new best friend. Oh,

41:36

man, she was so fabulous. Oh, God. You

41:38

know what? It's like I've been listening to

41:40

her for over a decade and I just

41:43

talking to her it was like even better

41:45

than all the fantasies I've had about going

41:47

on her show. No, and

41:49

she had such a great fact of

41:51

life. Oh, totally gonna steal

41:54

that as something to teach my kids. Yeah.

41:56

And pretend you made it up. What's

41:58

the fact of life? if you want to teach your

42:00

kids. Oh, God, this

42:03

is a toughie. I think it's that we

42:06

all have something like when we're growing up that

42:08

we feel a little

42:10

bit bad about or a little bit of shame about.

42:13

And a lot of

42:15

times just saying that aloud to someone that

42:17

you love or feel close to is a

42:20

way to get out of it. It's a way

42:22

to stop feeling less

42:24

than or to feeling shame. Because

42:27

as Brene Brown tells me, shame can't live.

42:31

Wait, is that what she says? Is

42:33

that what she says? I think

42:35

so. So I think that's it. Yeah. That's

42:37

a great one. What's yours? I

42:40

mean, there are a lot of them, but

42:42

one that I constantly have to remind myself,

42:44

so I'm hoping to teach them, is that

42:46

like nothing is

42:49

forever. So like

42:51

if you're feeling so bad

42:53

about something, it's gonna pass.

42:56

Like we can keep moving forward and it's gonna get

42:58

better. I'm Andy Mitchell.

43:01

And I'm Sabrina Kolberg. Thanks

43:03

for listening. Next week

43:05

on Pop Culture Moms, we're talking

43:07

to ABC chief meteorologist Ginger Zee

43:10

about what covering the weather has taught

43:12

her about parenting and mental health. Pop

43:15

Culture Moms is a production of ABC

43:17

Audio in partnership with Good Morning America,

43:20

hosted by me, Sabrina Kolberg. And

43:23

me, Andy Mitchell. Our show is

43:25

produced by Camille Peterson, Asala Sanahore,

43:27

Sabrina Kolberg, and me. Music

43:30

by Evan Biola. Special

43:32

thanks to Emily Schutz, Susie

43:34

Lu, Josh Cohan, Ariel Chester,

43:37

Liz Alessi, and Simone Swink,

43:39

the executive producer of GMA. Laura

43:41

Mayer is the executive producer of

43:44

podcasts for ABC Audio. I

43:51

want to tell you about a show I think you're gonna love. Enter

43:54

Bedtime with Big Little Feelings. Modern

43:56

parenting is a doozy. There's never been

43:59

more pressure to- be perfect with social

44:01

media readily available at our fingertips, mixed

44:04

with total isolation and no help. Where's

44:06

that village everyone talks about? Consider

44:09

After Bedtime, your village. Led

44:11

by Christian and Dina, founders of the

44:13

largest online parenting community, Big Little Feelings.

44:16

If you didn't catch our episode with Christian

44:18

and Dina right here on Pop Culture Moms,

44:20

we talk about parenting with confidence and empathy,

44:22

and our favorite cartoon moms. After

44:25

Bedtime unpacks, things we're all experiencing but

44:27

too ashamed to talk about. Imperfect

44:29

marriages, miscarriages, managing toddler

44:31

mania, apologizing to our kids

44:33

and everything in between. You'll

44:36

leave with actionable, realistic tips to make

44:39

this whole parenting thing smoother. Small changes,

44:41

big impact. Listen to and

44:43

follow After Bedtime with Big Little Feelings on the

44:45

Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.