0:00

Apple Card is the perfect cash back rewards

0:02

credit card. You earn up to 3%

0:04

daily cash on every purchase, every day. That's

0:07

3% on your favorite products at Apple, 2%

0:10

on all other Apple Card with Apple Pay

0:12

purchases, and 1% on anything you buy with

0:14

your titanium Apple Card or virtual card number.

0:16

Visit apple.co.com/card calculator to see how

0:18

much you can earn. Apple

0:21

Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA

0:23

Salt Lake City branch, subject to credit

0:25

approval, terms apply. Welcome

0:27

to Popcast Deluxe. Your trophy is in the

0:29

mail of weekly cultural review.

0:32

I'm John Karamanica. I'm a critic at The New

0:34

York Times. I'm Joe Cascarelli. I'm a reporter at

0:36

The New York Times. Before we get into the

0:39

meat of the show, if

0:41

you want to participate in the Popcast ecosystem,

0:44

I know we've talked about getting mugs. Here

0:48

are the mugs. Popcast mug, it's

0:50

on the Zazzle store. If you go to Zazzle,

0:52

you type in Popcast, you'll find it. Look at

0:54

Joe. How's the drinkability on that? I mean, it's

0:56

a nice, it's the right size. It's the tall

0:58

mug. It's the right size. Like clearly, no 12.

1:01

No short mugs. No short mugs. 15 ounces

1:03

or bust. Absolutely. So we have

1:05

these. Also subscribe to Popcast.

1:08

If you want to check in with

1:10

us every week, gtube.com/Popcast. You can press

1:12

the button below. And

1:14

the stickers, which I have stuck up in some

1:16

of the finest bar bathrooms across this nation.

1:19

And other nations? Not yet. But if

1:22

you'd like to, if you want to

1:24

volunteer, we'll send you some. It's thepopcast.myshopify.com.

1:26

Joe, did you watch the big award

1:29

show the other night? Yeah, congratulations. To

1:32

us. Yes. You

1:35

may be thinking I'm talking about the Oscars. I'm not

1:37

talking about the Oscars. Talking about

1:39

the I Heart Podcast Awards. Which

1:41

are a real thing. Legit.

1:44

Shannon Sharpe was there. You showed up. We

1:47

didn't show up. You pulled a Wes Anderson. I

1:49

didn't show up. You pulled a Miyazaki. You did

1:51

not show up. I do want to say I

1:54

did go back and look at the emails. They

1:56

were threaded in such a way that it was

1:58

like not to. I

2:00

wasn't totally clear on like what the

2:03

invitation status was Okay, I just

2:05

anyway, but you would have gone if you

2:07

knew that the invitation was there. I would

2:10

have gone Okay, why not one day in Austin

2:12

the optimal time to be in Austin just for

2:14

the record You think they would have put you

2:16

on screen if you lost? No,

2:19

I'd having watched the livestream. I think no, okay, you

2:21

weren't gonna be a lily glad stuff. No, I was

2:24

not gonna be a little glad that Anyway,

2:27

shout out to I heart

2:30

and whoever who knows both

2:32

music podcast best music podcast pop gasps.

2:34

Here's here's the There's the

2:36

clip of us winning the guys from work a whole yes

2:40

Here's the one was winning best music

2:43

pop gasps Clearly

2:46

obviously the winning the best music podcast

2:48

of 2023 I was

2:50

like that directly after us was

2:52

the word for best ad read We

2:56

can only aspire to best ad next

2:58

year for coming for best Smart

3:01

look we're coming for smart look anyway if

3:03

you're involved in that in any way Shouts

3:06

to you. Maybe a trophy will show up. We'll put it

3:08

up there if it when it shows up Made

3:11

me think a lot about the Oscars It's

3:15

our Oscar whose speech Do

3:18

you think yours would have most closely

3:20

resemble? I cannot say on this

3:23

show I cannot speak on

3:25

that We

3:28

don't want to spend too much time on the Oscars because

3:30

it happened by the time you see this or hear this

3:32

It will have been many many days. I do

3:34

want to say I Never

3:38

saw Oppenheimer So okay.

3:40

Yeah, sorry. All right. No, I think I

3:42

I have no I have no love for

3:44

Oppenheimer You saw say that I was all

3:46

yes. Okay. I thought it was birthday alone.

3:49

Did I not say that on the podcast? Dark

3:52

I saw Oppenheimer on my birthday alone. Yeah,

3:54

I did you want to just do a

3:56

tight five on that Between

4:00

it was in between a haircut and a dinner

4:07

Okay, you had three hours to kill okay cool. Yeah,

4:09

that's cool Yeah, Robert Downey

4:11

jr. That you know how I know that that's

4:13

a fake Oscar win

4:15

Wow because Sam Rockwell still pronounced

4:17

the character's name wrong in

4:20

the little opening speech I'm like this this

4:22

role did not hit like you're pretending it

4:24

hit if we don't know that it's straws

4:26

and not Strauss fair Okay, um anything else

4:28

happened at the show that jumped out the

4:30

Jeep besides the I'm just kept performance We'll

4:33

talk about that. Yeah You're

4:36

welcome. My real takeaway was Billy

4:38

Eilish to Martin Scorsese you won.

4:40

Yeah, of course That's

4:42

like career Oscars uh

4:46

Unbelievable. I gotta

4:48

say like this is maybe not the right episode

4:50

to talk about this But I was thinking

4:52

a lot about the Grammys recently and the

4:55

Jay-Z speech Like it just was it's been

4:57

like percolating in my mind and

4:59

you know, yes We want the numbers to be right

5:01

just we want to be balanced like Beyonce has great

5:03

album She should win album of the year. Sure. You

5:05

know who else has a lot of Grammy

5:08

wins who's never won album of the year Jimmy

5:11

stir Great. Yeah,

5:13

you know like it doesn't matter. It

5:15

doesn't like the numbers like yes,

5:18

Billy, I love Billy Eilish

5:21

has two Oscars I

5:26

want to thank my like dance teachers growing

5:28

up. I want to thank my choir teachers

5:30

miss Brigham Thanks for believing in

5:32

me. Miss T. You didn't like me, but you were

5:35

good at your job Diane

5:37

Warren though robbed 15 times straight

5:40

Okay Put

5:42

a finger down if you were aware that there was a flippin

5:45

hot cheetos movie in this past year Put

5:48

another figure down if you know Diane Warren wrote a

5:50

song for it Put

5:53

another finger down if you've listened to any of the

5:55

ooh Vapek Becky

6:00

G put another finger down

6:02

if you understood why Becky

6:04

G was performing the Diane Warren song

6:06

from the Flamin' Hot Cheetos movie at

6:09

the Oscars. Okay,

6:14

I knew there was a movie. It's

6:17

based on a semi-apocryphal story that was

6:19

debunked in a great LA Times story.

6:22

Uh, incredible. As a,

6:24

yeah, sorry. Okay. I'll

6:27

just say this. Yeah. Um,

6:29

Becky G performed at the Oscars. Salute.

6:34

I also want to... It's the ultimate,

6:37

uh, making fetch happen. Yes.

6:40

Becky G, semi-failed, Dr.

6:43

Luke Protégé made it

6:45

to the Oscars. Um, I

6:47

did want to shout out there was a great

6:49

little nugget in, um, Matthew

6:51

Bologna's buck newsletter. Yep.

6:54

Um, podcaster, Hollywood insider extraordinaire said

6:56

that Diane Warren threw a mini-tance

6:59

on Trum because the nominees were

7:01

not read in full. Mining

7:03

her name did not get said. Yes.

7:07

But she's been nominated, I think, is 15 times?

7:10

Over 15. Right. Some

7:12

real Susan Luchy hours. Um, you

7:18

know, I gotta be honest, there's probably a Diane Warren

7:20

song in the first five of those that probably should

7:22

have won. Yeah, sure. But

7:24

these, these are fake songs. These are

7:26

not real. These are not real. This

7:28

to try to get her to the

7:31

trophy. Yeah, these, these songs are the

7:33

Tony Bennett, Lady Gaga collaborations, which only

7:35

exists to receive Grammy nominations of the

7:37

Oscars. But that's even giving them too

7:39

much credit. I feel like yeah, but

7:41

I do sort of respect that you

7:43

guys voting body, like they're not just

7:45

being like, okay, fine, stop doing this.

7:48

Okay. Like, usually it's like

7:50

they do give career awards, right? Like

7:52

eventually they're like, this person just deserves

7:54

one, but they're like, we Know

7:56

they can't bring themselves to vote for the deployment.

7:59

How'd she think? Okay does that

8:01

song free date or you to

8:03

systems of the same a Hot

8:05

Cheetos movie before you Die in

8:07

War and sit in a screening

8:10

room. Seats in. The. Power

8:12

of the Flame and I'd see a

8:14

movie and immediately run new a piano

8:16

right like Billie did about the dolls.

8:18

Exactly like what was it Once the

8:20

creative process ever bet you the the

8:22

germ of the idea was a bear

8:24

and she was like slick she must

8:26

have a crazy like sir trouble database

8:29

rights year was lazy idea where you

8:31

can go by keywords which were gonna.

8:33

Actually I want to talk more about

8:35

this idea of filler music in a

8:37

future episodes to put up. Put a

8:39

pin in. this will do because it's

8:41

It's irrelevant. Something else are going to discuss

8:43

on the show How com. The. Other.

8:46

Take. Away from Me or which a

8:48

Al Pacino had to pull out statement.

8:50

I was ridiculous because he's too did

8:52

not read the full slate of nominees.

8:54

He also said like my eyes see

8:57

up a lot like wouldn't that mean

8:59

that the a good went to the

9:01

movies like he went to the Regal

9:03

fourteen the World Who Is great anti

9:05

climax especially of Avalon art and knew

9:07

what was going to win their and

9:09

but. Al Pacino father of a

9:11

new child. From. Tired. What

9:15

would you agree with that again? at Yes

9:17

fair I mean yeah I the one Jimmy

9:19

Kimmel joke that I liked on my was

9:21

like god he could get a sitter. ah

9:23

which sort of like went under the radar

9:25

I didn't Guy was been cast as the

9:27

of yeah. I. Guess before we're

9:30

done with Oscars I shout out front

9:32

of the pod cord oscar winner. Very.

9:35

Also, we're to be at a stage in

9:37

our lives and careers where we just know

9:39

people who have won Oscars two years running

9:41

get not. Now was the last year two

9:43

years ago. could only two years is our

9:45

Joey my dear friend one last two years

9:47

ago. Ah, here we know. Oscar

9:49

winners poser where's I get

9:51

herself? Order to quip: To

9:56

start, understand. You're

10:01

a big Ken guy.

10:07

Yeah. Very much so. I

10:10

was extremely happy to see it. I

10:12

thought he sold it. He really sold

10:14

it. I thought Ronson looked great. Like

10:17

whatever the pirate shirt action.

10:19

Playing bass. Yeah. Like

10:21

phenomenal. I want to try that move with a little like to

10:24

you sometime like just the when he did

10:26

the little like playful little nudge and was

10:28

just looking good. You know. Yeah.

10:31

I wonder how many times he practiced that. Gosling obviously really

10:33

went in his Mickey Mouse Club bag. Yeah.

10:35

Like if you think of those Mickey Mouse Club

10:38

performances, they're actually fairly earnest. And

10:40

I wonder like the campiness

10:42

of it. Obviously the movie is camp.

10:45

Whatever. But I feel like

10:47

he was trying to play it relatively straight

10:49

even compared to the movie performance of

10:51

it. Yeah. It was advertised

10:53

that there'd be 75 shirtless Ken's. I

10:56

guess I was too hot for ABC

10:58

because they have like little. Yeah. It's

11:00

a true issue. We didn't add up to that. But I'm

11:03

I thought it was a. It was that it

11:05

was oversold. Yeah. But

11:10

also they really not as hot as advertised. But

11:12

don't you feel like for at least

11:14

three or four commercial breaks leading up to

11:16

it they were like and now right. Yeah.

11:19

Like I was like centerpiece of the show. Absolutely.

11:21

We need more than the Flamin Hot Cheetos song.

11:23

Yeah. And I think that any

11:26

sincerity even

11:28

Slash kept a straight face. Yeah.

11:31

Really impressive. Yeah. All

11:33

around Slash's leather fitting well

11:36

still. Like how often do you think he

11:38

re-ups the. First of all

11:41

I know Slash is pulling up to H. Lorenzo.

11:44

I know he's pulling up to Maxfield. I really

11:46

teed you up for that. Yeah I know. Like

11:48

you know like first of all Slash come shop

11:50

with me. Like or let me come shop with

11:52

you. Like he's absolutely pulling up

11:55

to the most Preposterous expensive

11:57

stores in Los Angeles. I'm

12:01

going back. I another stance like other

12:03

bands with lights boots on the side.

12:05

Yeah seriously Sliced Incredibles. Ah you know

12:08

I have an idea. I double checked

12:10

the nice best song of Twenty Twenty

12:12

Three should have already should have won

12:14

the oscar. Absolutely like no knock on

12:17

believe so nice song. It's good. It's

12:19

sturdy I'm just can is lit see

12:21

meant in every way that the Billie

12:24

song is not. It will also be

12:26

remembered which is like actually. Usually.

12:29

When Oscars when you're thing won't be remember you know it's

12:31

like it's better spent it all. These are the alley. Ah,

12:34

Anyhow, Did. The Oscars

12:37

is my last question. We Can we want to

12:39

be Oscars? Make you want to watch any of

12:41

the films you haven't seen. Which. I

12:43

assume is most of them. Yeah, Ah,

12:45

Anatomy of a Follower. Yeah.

12:47

Saw it Okay great messes with ya

12:49

on a is why do I do

12:51

ten on Messy? This is unbelievable on

12:53

know I I really liked about me

12:55

of a fall. ah I have no

12:57

interest in Oppenheimer. Ah, Poor

13:00

Saints not good. At

13:03

It. You know I do it. I think

13:05

you might respect. Beautiful. Downs.

13:09

And also ever did die Emma

13:11

Stone a. Decent where the

13:13

use medium stone below the gladstone to

13:15

eat which one. There was a

13:18

lot A yeah, they're sort of in the year

13:20

of the curse of right to their trappings. Documentary:

13:22

Alive at home Epicenter. There's nothing funnier than Emma

13:24

Stone being low. Glad so the anywhere off road

13:26

us and will be back. I'm gonna. Say.

13:28

That match? Absolutely. Yeah, Hundred Percent. Of.

13:32

Anyway, that's that's that's our turn with

13:34

the oscars. Stove.

13:36

Talk about something that's. A.

13:39

little more familiar care. Joe.

13:43

Some. Might say that we

13:45

are podcast industry plants. Ah

13:47

no a dumb yeah. ah.

13:50

What do you make of the industry?

13:53

Plan: Conversation in Twenty Twenty Four Students

13:55

forget who are about start Bob. why

13:58

are people still to about this. Do

14:01

you want me a serious answer? Because I

14:04

have a serious answer. I want a serious

14:06

answer. I think there is something to the

14:08

industry plant conversation, but it is

14:10

not what exactly what people think

14:12

it is. Okay. If

14:16

there were such a thing as an industry plant, as

14:19

in labels could just decide who

14:21

was going to be super famous

14:23

and see the path through

14:26

culture in which

14:28

fire caught gradually and then

14:31

erupted into like unanimous acclaim,

14:34

there would be so many more successful

14:37

artists. Like they can't even get

14:39

artists to work that to

14:42

do the thing. Like that has

14:44

actual fans. Yeah. Like Justin Timberlake.

14:47

Like, you know, if there was such a thing as

14:49

an industry plant, it was possible

14:51

to do such a thing in that way

14:53

in this top down way,

14:55

like from the major label, you're like

14:58

pulling mysterious strings, Wizard of

15:00

Ozzing behind the scenes. Like we

15:03

would have a new artist breaking every

15:05

week, every month. Like they, many,

15:08

many dozens of people's jobs are to try to make

15:10

this happen. That said,

15:12

I think what people actually mean

15:15

about an industry plant, which does

15:17

exist, is somebody who

15:20

has a lot of people in

15:22

their corner who know a

15:24

lot of other people whose names you don't

15:26

know who can pull certain levers. But is

15:28

that a point? What is that? This is

15:30

what I'm saying. That

15:32

is something being well connected, being

15:34

well connected. There is

15:36

a difference between, say an

15:39

artist in Omaha, Nebraska, uploading

15:42

something to band camp and

15:45

catching viral lightning

15:47

completely organically. Their

15:50

Manager is their best friend. They Get flown to

15:52

LA, they go to some meetings, they sign a

15:54

label deal. Maybe They don't announce the label deal

15:56

until after the next EP is out, which is

15:59

something that happens. The as to make

16:01

it look more gonna Clayton.psych. That's

16:03

a fairly rare. Rise

16:05

And then there's someone like for Best

16:07

that you are talking about. The. Format.

16:10

As manager, has worked at a

16:13

label far as as manager has

16:15

done creative direction for other clients.

16:17

That person likely knows: people who

16:19

make playlist said streaming services, people

16:21

who direct music videos having a

16:23

rolodex. But. That doesn't

16:25

mean that your songs are going to hit again. There's

16:27

tons of our dislike that. You. Know what

16:29

I mean and not so I'm not all those artists

16:32

his to like. When. You see an

16:34

artist like for Bass getting popular and then

16:36

getting a Drake remix like we've seen. this.

16:39

Game. Play out before like. They

16:41

might be connected. But.

16:43

That doesn't necessarily mean the music is

16:45

gonna succeed, especially in the way that

16:48

this music is succeeding. So yeah, think

16:50

like people are on to something but

16:52

the conspiracies that they're spinning up in

16:55

their heads both you know, the online

16:57

commentary and and fans who like smell

16:59

something fishy. It's like they're not wrong.

17:01

There is smoke. But.

17:03

It's not what they think this. Should

17:06

we listen to the good like the good for

17:08

bad song as it warms there's three for ballet

17:10

or which acts do you prefer? Okay I mean

17:13

I think as to is the one we have

17:15

to talk about her Dated act to dated A

17:17

This is the original version. So

17:31

ice I think the you are correct in. Boasts.

17:34

Years of that assessment. But what? Always

17:37

frustrates me about. This.

17:39

Conversation is. By.

17:42

And large, it is triggered

17:44

and pushed by people. Who

17:47

have very little understanding of how yes

17:49

the music industry works? To.

17:52

The Point where it is written snap potential,

17:54

frame That phrase have any potential meaning. Yeah,

17:56

it didn't mean anything to start with, but

17:58

it absolutely doesn't mean. The thing when

18:01

it's used and weaponized and kind

18:03

of. I'd I'd be

18:05

contextualized by a bunch of who

18:07

genuinely don't understand how anything's works

18:09

in the music business, right? See

18:11

are correct. There is a different

18:14

scene artists that generate random, viral,

18:16

same, or random online attention as

18:18

people who. Come. Through.

18:20

A. Well known publicity company or

18:23

marketing firm or. Seating

18:26

for me Whatever of all of these am

18:28

spike. There are artists who have no manager

18:30

but have a lawyer and that lawyers well

18:33

connected Matt lawyer walks them into a record

18:35

label office. It's also possible what I haven't

18:37

done the full for Bats the type of

18:39

it's possible there's some songs that person but

18:42

I'm here at five years go home and

18:44

set Robert instead of been totally scrub loud

18:46

so he seems like a totally new artists

18:48

are probably is not a totally new artists

18:50

and that's really com and and I think

18:53

the For Bats sound and roll out. And.

18:56

Look. You know all of it.

18:58

The and the reason Drake is drawn to

19:00

it is because drake a very consistent taste

19:02

over the years I you can see the

19:05

pieces of this that trait innovia were drawn

19:07

to because it is. Both. Sadly,

19:09

book has something to eat you as

19:11

a playbook that they participated in sienna

19:13

play was at Daves boosted the up

19:15

many other times. Whether it's price until

19:18

our or the weekend or party next

19:20

door or Maggi Jordan are you know

19:22

it's like all of these things the

19:24

the, the look, the feel, the sound,

19:27

Of. It it cites it's in the wheelhouse

19:29

and there is a pass for things that

19:32

look and sound like this so doesn't surprise

19:34

me that the some to costs and or

19:36

that Drake jumped on remix way I do.

19:40

Know. is

19:43

it I

20:01

don't know if it's an A plus song.

20:10

At minimum I think it's a B plus song. It's

20:13

solid. It has what

20:16

ultimately is a funny visual conceit

20:19

in the video, which is it's a video of

20:21

a bunch of guys looking tough

20:24

and then the vocals come and the vocals

20:26

are not tough or maybe they're

20:29

tough but just not in a way that lines up

20:31

with the visuals. Right.

20:34

A big four from the block performance. Yeah.

20:36

Is that the video you're talking about?

20:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so,

20:41

but the subject matter is not that

20:43

unusual. Like the sound is not that

20:45

unusual. It's

20:48

just always strange to

20:50

find people confused and

20:52

reckoning with the sudden arrival of

20:54

a new thing that

20:56

does well as if new things

20:58

don't suddenly arrive every day, every

21:00

week. Of course, not many

21:02

with the lasting power or the potential for

21:05

lasting power that this seems that it

21:07

must be hard for an artist who has

21:10

opportunity but also has talent

21:14

to immediately be received with this

21:16

kind of like you got placed

21:18

here as if I mean,

21:20

what is it? 80 million streams on spot? I mean, sure.

21:23

There's a streaming farm somewhere in

21:25

Southeast Asia that's buying those streams but

21:27

I don't think so. Yeah,

21:29

it seems legit enough. And

21:31

there are songs that take off with

21:34

no plan in place and there are songs that

21:36

take off as part of a plan. Yes. And

21:39

I think like that's the other thing. It's like

21:41

often the people cooking up the plans have some

21:43

experience and connections in the industry and there's a

21:46

three week, three months, three year

21:49

blueprint of how this is all

21:51

going to go. And

21:53

then sometimes there's things that happen along

21:55

the way like a FaceTime from Kanye

21:57

or a Drake Reman from Nana. an

22:00

EP deal with OVO sound like again,

22:03

this is like this is a tried and true

22:05

path for a decade now. So

22:08

it is funny that people still seem to

22:10

get outraged by it and also outraged by

22:12

the idea that like for bats is trying

22:14

to capitalize on the

22:16

on the media capital. Yeah, it's like

22:18

what else? Yeah, it's hip hop. It's

22:20

R&B. It's like he wants to be

22:23

as big as possible pretty quickly. But

22:25

while also taking his time and not

22:27

blowing his mystique, like that's what this

22:29

is. I mean, the other thing, and

22:32

this is less from the fan quote unquote

22:34

side or the chattering class side and more

22:36

from the industry side, it

22:38

really does feel like a

22:40

counterpoint to the rank

22:42

desperation that I think we feel from a lot

22:44

of artists about how to navigate the TikTok era.

22:46

And we talked about this a bunch

22:48

of times, certainly in recent episodes, we talked about

22:50

this a bunch of times where people are like,

22:53

my label is telling me I have to gain the system.

22:55

And it's like, yes,

22:57

your label is telling you that it's also your label's

22:59

job to help you gain the system. Everybody

23:01

is trying to either organically or

23:04

inorganically achieve what a song like

23:06

this is achieved. And so I

23:08

think that level of desperation

23:11

that's common amongst rookies

23:14

and veterans, something

23:17

like this happens and people are

23:19

like, literally, WTF like, like

23:21

how, how, how sway it's like

23:23

the Watergate era, like of music

23:25

fandom where after Watergate, the American

23:28

public is paranoid and into conspiracy

23:30

theories and, you know, sort of

23:32

like looking over their shoulder, who's

23:34

lying to us? Like music fans

23:36

have are so attuned

23:40

now to the labor pulling

23:42

and the and they

23:44

game the system themselves stand

23:46

down to their artists like they like

23:49

Jennifer Lopez vinyl buyer. They

23:52

know too much. And

23:54

I think that that so so they're on high alert

23:57

in this age of misinformation.

24:00

across all realms of culture and

24:02

politics. Rather than simply being like,

24:04

this song sounds like

24:06

a lot of other songs that

24:08

I and millions of others have

24:10

historically liked, and boy, someone

24:12

really did a good job of nailing

24:14

that sound. We

24:17

regret to inform you, Four

24:19

Bats is not an industry plan. Is that where you're coming

24:21

down? Yes,

24:24

that is where I'm coming at. Are

24:26

you coming down on the other side

24:28

of it? No, I'm saying Four Bats

24:31

has an industry plan. Plan

24:35

T, plan, plan T. That

24:39

plan is called plan T. Okay,

24:42

speaking of someone who maybe doesn't

24:44

have quite as tight a rollout

24:47

as Four Bats. Right, a quite

24:49

messy rollout. Yeah, if you go

24:51

back six months. Yeah, so

24:53

the Ariana album is out. Ariana Grande.

24:56

Yeah, it's called Eternal Sunshine. You like

24:58

that movie? It's a

25:01

lot when it came out, sure. It

25:03

was, yeah, it's a good movie. Big for me as

25:05

a teenager. I'm the right age for it. Maybe

25:08

I was a little bit too like, at

25:10

the time. I think I noted this when the

25:12

single Yes, Anne came out, but a lot of

25:14

the younger fans were like, this is a movie

25:16

starring Jim Carrey and Jay Wentz. You know, just

25:18

like sending Wikipedia links around. You know, and I'm

25:21

like, yeah, I can recite it like front to

25:23

back, you know. I don't know

25:25

if it was that important for me. Yeah,

25:27

well, you were at a different stage in your life

25:29

for Michelle Gantry film. Okay,

25:32

so this is basically like an early to

25:34

mid 90s club record or

25:37

club soul record. Ariana,

25:39

Yes, Anne was the lead single.

25:42

There's a Mariah Carey remix of that, which,

25:44

you know, kudos to all people involved. Oh,

25:48

John Sherry, I've

25:51

seen you with you. Oh,

25:54

baby, you have been a good dad.

26:02

Craft matters in small ways like how coffee

26:04

is made or how

26:07

a wooden table is built piece by piece. And

26:10

in not so small ways like how your money is

26:12

cared for. At UBS, we

26:14

elevate investing to a craft. We

26:17

deliver our services with passion, expertise, and

26:19

meticulous attention to detail. This is what

26:22

investing means to UBS. Not

26:24

just work, but a craft. Learn

26:27

more at ubs.com/craft.

26:30

The value of investments may fall as well as rise, and you

26:32

may not get back the amount originally invested. I

26:38

use the New York Times games app every

26:41

single day. I love playing Connections. With Connections,

26:43

I need to twist my brain to see

26:45

the different categories. I think I know this connection.

26:47

Look, Bath is a city in England,

26:50

Sandwich is a city in England, Reading

26:52

is a city in England, and I'm going to

26:54

guess Derby is a city in England. I started

26:56

Wordle 194 days ago and I haven't missed a

26:58

day. The New York Times games app

27:00

has all the games right there.

27:03

I absolutely love spelling bee. I

27:05

always have to get genius. I've

27:07

seen you yell at it and say that

27:09

should be a word. Totally should be a

27:11

word. Sudoku is kind of my version of

27:13

lifting heavy weights at the gym. At this

27:15

point, I'm probably more consistent with doing the

27:17

crossword than brushing my teeth. When I can

27:19

finish a hard puzzle without pen, I feel

27:21

like the smartest person in the world. When

27:23

I have to look up a clue to

27:25

help me, I'm learning something new. It

27:27

gives me joy every single day. Start

27:29

playing in the New York Times games

27:32

app. You can download it

27:34

at nytimes.com/games app. Ariana

27:40

was also the Oscars. We didn't talk

27:42

about this during the Oscar segment. Ariana

27:44

was also the Oscars with Cynthia Rivo.

27:46

Doing low-key promo for what is going

27:48

to be the most promoted film of all

27:50

time. I'm already tense

27:53

about the Wicked rollout. Is

28:00

it dope? Um, I don't like

28:02

musicals, but I was moved by

28:04

the, I like Phantom of

28:06

the Opera. Okay. Do you

28:08

like the Wizard of Oz? Not really. Okay.

28:12

Yeah. This is, you know, this is,

28:14

sure. Wizard of Oz. Great. Told

28:17

through. The Wizard? No, it's in the title.

28:22

Did you really not know this? No, I

28:24

had no idea what it is. Okay. Sounds,

28:27

uh. Wicked Witch, The Wicked Witch. Sounds,

28:30

sounds on a peel like. Uh, there's some bangers though.

28:33

If you say so. Yeah. There's,

28:35

there's, yeah. Diane Warren. You've never

28:38

heard Defying Gravity? Yeah,

28:41

yeah, is

28:44

that what that's from? Yeah. Okay.

28:48

But I'll see you at the theater. Yeah, it's

28:50

at Sia. See what? Both

28:53

theaters. Yes. Um, we're

28:55

gonna do a double feature. Stage

28:58

show. Stage show, then film. Film,

29:00

yeah. Dark. Should we make that

29:02

a pop gas group event? That'd be a fan event. Fan exclusive. Um,

29:05

where are you standing on the Ariana rollout? We'll

29:07

talk about the music more, but like on the

29:09

rollout. So she had

29:11

some tabloid mess, we'll

29:13

say. Uh, relationship base,

29:16

divorced. Uh,

29:18

Ethan Slater, who stars in

29:21

Wicked. Also? Yeah.

29:23

And formerly SpongeBob Squarepants. Is

29:26

that true? Yeah, he was SpongeBob on Broadway.

29:28

Oh. Yeah, that turned out

29:30

to be a boyfriend. She got divorced, ended

29:33

up with a co-star. Right.

29:36

Uh, this album seems to be about, so Eternal Sunshine

29:38

for those who were not 16 in 2004 or

29:44

30, or 30, is

29:46

about wiping the memory

29:49

of a scarring

29:51

relationship and whether you want to

29:53

or not. Uh, yeah, a

29:55

little fantastical. Yeah. Yeah. So

29:58

it's like Men in Black. Yeah, it is like. It is like

30:00

Man of Black. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's okay. It is like...

30:02

Speak a language I can... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

30:06

And this is about wiping

30:09

one damaging relationship and finding a

30:11

new one, this album. But

30:14

there is a song in which she seems

30:16

to refer to her brief marriage as a

30:18

situation ship. I'm sure. Do

30:22

you think he's a good singer? I'm

30:29

sure. Do you think he's aware of that? I

30:31

think he knows now. Yeah. The album

30:34

came out. So it's pretty directly,

30:36

as a lot of the most

30:38

recent Ariana Grande albums are responding

30:40

directly to her tabloid narratives. You

30:43

know, there's the line in Yes And Why Do You

30:45

Care? Bleep, Bleep, Bleep,

30:48

Bleep. So can I just add that

30:51

on a regular podcast this

30:53

week, the subject is about main

30:55

pop girl, like the idea of main pop girl.

30:57

And one of the things that came up in

30:59

that conversation with Larisha and Jason was

31:02

you have to have... Obviously, you

31:04

have to have songs, you have to have the

31:06

promotion and the rollout and the marketing, but you

31:08

have to have the meta-narrative. Yes. And

31:11

it's not simply a fan meta-narrative is what

31:13

fans are imposing on you. It's also your

31:15

feeding into meta-narrative. And I think Ariana

31:19

maybe as not as much as Taylor,

31:21

because no one is as much as Taylor, but

31:24

approaching the level of Taylor really takes

31:26

that seriously and has taken it seriously.

31:29

Especially for someone whose primary value proposition

31:31

as a pop star to me is

31:34

not mess, but actually vocals. Yeah.

31:37

Like with the album, is that not showcase at all? No,

31:39

not at all. But it's striking

31:41

that for someone who I think is so

31:44

fundamentally vocally gifted, there is this sense of

31:46

like, that's not enough. I'm

31:48

going to do autobiographical songs. I'm going

31:50

to do songs that stoke tabloid interest,

31:52

that stoke fan series. That's

31:54

still very much where her head's at, even though she

31:56

could absolutely blow out of the

31:58

water 99%. of people

32:00

who are currently singing and pop. But I

32:02

think since Thank U Next when she really

32:04

leaned into this and also leaned into a

32:07

quicker roll out

32:09

cycle like rappers. Yeah, rap style which

32:11

like she hasn't totally stuck with

32:13

but you know she could hit us with another one.

32:15

Yeah and also this album is 36 minutes long.

32:17

That's what I mean. She's fine doing, this project

32:19

is a little slight and I mean that as

32:22

a compliment. It's barely 36

32:24

minutes long, it has one sound

32:26

largely written and produced with Max

32:28

Martin and Ilya, his collaborator, longtime

32:31

people who've worked together. It feels like it was made

32:33

like two weeks. Yeah but in a way that I

32:35

think is cool for a big pop album. And

32:40

so I think the roll out is actually

32:42

effective for this version of her. There aren't

32:44

huge songs on here. Like sure Yes and

32:46

Went number one with a Mariah Carey remix.

32:49

Like they were going to make that happen.

32:51

Yes and feels a little out of place

32:53

on this album. Like this feels like a

32:55

pretty small and intimate album and the lyrics

32:57

are pretty literal to match that. Like she's

32:59

talking about therapy, she's talking about you know

33:01

her grandma's featured on the last track with

33:03

a voicemail like another rapper-y thing. It

33:13

does feel like she's both big main

33:15

pop girl and really just communing with her

33:17

fans and is like I'm just going to

33:19

keep feeding you because you're bought into my

33:21

narrative. I mean also she

33:24

has a huge movie coming. It's what can

33:26

I do to sort of. Yeah it does

33:28

feel like a whole different. It feels like

33:30

an album that's a promotional tactic for her

33:32

upcoming star turn in the movie. Yes. But

33:35

to your point about it being slight, I mean there

33:37

are a couple things I like about this album. One,

33:41

it's a small sounding but it's

33:43

an interesting sound. Sure. I

33:47

wish I could hear more of her singing.

33:49

I mean the thing with Ariana is I

33:51

really. You like her as a belter. I

33:53

like the contour of her voice. I like

33:56

the nimbleness of it. I

33:58

like the swoop of it. And

34:00

there's not very much on the songs

34:02

that really goes to that She's

34:05

in a position where I Don't

34:08

know maybe there's this thing where I did

34:11

that to announce myself and now I don't have to

34:13

do it anymore Especially if I'm

34:15

not going to do like Adele style

34:17

ballads She still wants radio or radio

34:19

oriented songs and maybe she thinks that

34:21

you have to shrink your voice a

34:24

little bit because there isn't a Current

34:26

template for a big singer to have

34:28

pop hits. There's barely any ballots on

34:30

this album. Yeah, there's like slowers on

34:32

tempo Yeah, but like not really nothing

34:36

No theatrical. There's no theatricality on the

34:38

record wickets coming up. Yeah, so maybe

34:40

she's getting out of our system elsewhere.

34:42

Um, but also One

34:45

of the things that we've talked about and

34:47

we talked about this would do a lot

34:49

where it's like Oh like is dance music

34:51

back like Beyonce's run stuff like his dance

34:54

music back and one thing about both Do

34:56

and Beyonce in this particular setting is like

34:58

or in relation to this Do

35:01

is doing you know late

35:03

70s and 80s cosplay Beyonce is doing

35:05

like a historical updating

35:07

of Certain

35:09

kinds of whether it's disco or

35:11

queer subcultures from the 90s house.

35:14

Yeah. Yeah, they feel More

35:18

specifically indebted and like

35:21

bound by an older style These

35:24

are very clearly like club soul records,

35:26

but they don't feel Don't

35:28

feel historical in quite the same way.

35:30

I don't know that they feel totally

35:33

modern but it's There's

35:35

something a little bit strenuous about when

35:37

doing Beyonce or doing it Obviously at

35:39

two different skill levels just in case

35:41

anybody's worried that I'm using those two

35:44

at two different skill levels But there's nothing who

35:47

Dini is better than around us. That's all you're

35:49

saying Camera

35:52

on the hip just kidding. Um, just kidding.

35:54

Um, but Ariana

35:57

doesn't these aren't

35:59

intellectual Sir Max Martin record

36:01

yeah they just happen to have that

36:03

particular has we did. He has such

36:05

an ease with anything you like. which

36:07

boulder do you want to that you

36:09

know allied you on it's I'd rather

36:11

robin full year. We gotta talk about

36:13

the Robert specific. Okay so Joe watch

36:15

me in real time experience of this

36:17

song. For. The first time we

36:19

can't be friends. Okay so we just

36:22

do the To Tuck guy they were. We

36:24

play that song and them play the Robinsons

36:26

yeah you want to do you call your

36:28

girlfriend and dancing. I'm analysis like a mashup

36:30

of the two and a I cover of

36:33

a mashup of the To Robinson's Absolutely so

36:35

like was do like this. And

36:57

that will do this. Her

37:24

boobs met a joke here. if

37:27

there is one, is like Max

37:29

Martin responsible for. The

37:31

early part of Robbins careers. Show.

37:33

Me: Love. Very. Much

37:35

from the era that that are

37:38

and of drive me ever prado.

37:40

Gary on the pre Backstreet Boys

37:42

Max Martin Hurts. And

37:44

Ma'am Robin becomes whenever

37:46

she is now called

37:48

figured. Robin. Care and

37:50

games. Can. score yep body

37:52

talk yeah these songs which are

37:54

now you know like the client

37:57

any other to us up for

37:59

we've and yeah your pineal Yeah,

38:01

yeah the stuff of girls season

38:04

two finale sure And

38:15

the curse like they're so part of the

38:17

culture that they can be satirized in the

38:19

curse with Amazonian a to

38:21

be yes. Anyway, this is just like

38:23

a bald ripoff like just beyond It's

38:26

actually like way to me It's way

38:28

crazier than just sampling like then straight

38:31

sampling because I feel like in

38:33

this era There's just so obviously so much

38:35

literalism Yeah This is actually

38:37

way crazier because it is so clearly

38:39

a ripoff and yet it is not

38:41

a sample and yeah They're not in

38:43

the credits not yet like Robin and her collaborators

38:46

like not in who were the credits Matt the

38:48

credits are max Martin Anyway, no, but he didn't

38:50

do those Robin record. Yeah,

38:52

but like but he's like I can do

38:54

that He's like, oh you left me like

38:56

watch watch It's

39:00

craven it's really crazy and it's single

39:03

and it's good you like it. Yeah, I like it.

39:05

You like call your girlfriend It's

39:08

it's a lot like her dislike. Yeah,

39:10

I don't it's in its moment. I

39:12

didn't love it But yeah, I

39:14

like this. Um, I'm just I'm

39:17

very struck at like why Ariana

39:20

thinks this is a path for

39:22

her. She and Robin Two

39:25

totally different singers. Yeah, totally

39:28

different styles totally different aesthetics

39:30

But it makes me wonder does Ariana

39:32

think For the next

39:35

phase of her music career that she has

39:37

to like I said rain in the belting

39:40

rain in the extremely like overt references

39:42

to like Pete Davidson

39:44

I Was gonna

39:47

say the black soul music of

39:49

seven And

39:51

the 90s but sure Pete Davidson Does

39:55

she feel like that path is not a

39:57

viable path forward for her and therefore to

40:00

do this even though a lot of the

40:02

music on this record essentially it's like it's

40:04

like a smaller version of that like the

40:07

club music of the 90s is different but

40:09

like you can imagine an early 90s a

40:11

referent Ariana album that refers

40:14

to Mariah's first album right it

40:16

is huge and has runs and

40:18

is peppy and dancy but also

40:20

dynamic vocal there is a song

40:23

here called the boy is mine

40:45

literally which is not not the

40:47

boy's mind no but if you're the person who I

40:49

gave the free idea to about boys mine I just

40:52

want you to know we're waiting on that do you know who you

40:55

are why is this

40:57

album exists do you think it exists purely to set

40:59

the table for Wicked yeah and I think

41:01

like I think Ariana loves to be in the studio

41:03

like like a rapper you know what I mean I

41:05

think she creates because

41:08

she wants to create and she loves her

41:10

collaborators like us and if you have Max

41:12

Martin on speed dial like you know why

41:14

not like just just bang one out and

41:16

I do think there's some interesting stuff on

41:18

here like these songs are stuck in my

41:20

head because one song laid on the

41:22

record I think it's a second to last

41:24

one imperfect for you which is based on

41:27

based around like a weird guitar like she's

41:29

trying some stuff there's a there's a strange

41:31

little run in the chorus there there's like

41:34

there's some slightly unexpected stuff

41:36

and I like this album

41:38

much better than a lot

41:41

of the like event records that we've

41:43

gotten in recent history from people

41:45

at her level yeah I mean I

41:47

think what she is

41:49

realizing is that the existence of

41:51

an Ariana Grande record isn't of

41:53

is sufficient event and a lot

41:56

of our you know again we were talking about do it

41:58

before kind of

42:00

heavy like, you know, what

42:03

is the thing for me, the whiteboard with

42:05

the red strings and whatever, like that kind

42:08

of rollout. And this has, it's

42:10

a little messy, it's a little unconventional, but it's

42:12

mostly just, I know you guys have

42:14

missed me, she really went dark for like the 12

42:16

to 18 months. Four

42:19

years they've been filming with you.

42:21

Yeah, yeah, like she really went

42:23

dark. So just the reemergence is

42:25

sufficient. I dare to say like

42:27

they're successful and different and not

42:29

in different ways, but it's a

42:31

little Midnight's-esque stage of

42:33

her career. How so? I

42:36

think Midnight's became something bigger because of

42:38

the tour and everything that happened after

42:40

Grammy, which is basically a thank you

42:42

for the success of the tour. But

42:45

I think in and of

42:47

itself, Midnight's was like a little bit of

42:49

an in-betweener. It was made from seemingly like

42:51

a little bit of spare parts. It was

42:53

like a familiar sound with a go-to collaborator.

42:55

It didn't feel like it was trying to

42:57

be an event. It became an event by virtue

42:59

of who put it out. Okay, that's fair. Although

43:01

I will say there is a coherence

43:04

sonically to this record that Midnight's

43:06

to me doesn't have. And

43:09

I feel like, and I really,

43:12

I want to stop using the

43:14

phrase errors for any person, including

43:16

Taylor. It's spent. But

43:18

it's rinsed. Don't do it. It's

43:21

industry planned. It really is. Like that

43:23

actually, you want to know a thing that the industry

43:25

has planted is the idea that artists should have errors

43:27

and do have errors. But

43:29

to me, it feels reminiscent of

43:32

a time period where people would

43:34

say, I'm going to try to

43:36

make a smallish record in this style.

43:39

And maybe it hits, maybe it doesn't. But

43:41

if it doesn't quite work, no problem. Because next

43:44

year, I'm going to do another smallish to Midnight's

43:46

record in a slightly different style. Except

43:49

Ariana is very famous. And

43:51

Defacto, I mean, this is a number one album, or

43:54

will be a number one album. I forget when this comes

43:56

out, but in a fairly quiet. Yeah, I'm right. But it'll

43:58

be a number one album. And

44:00

she's in a position where small

44:03

songs can end up as big hits. But

44:05

they don't go in the studio and say,

44:07

give me five bangers. And

44:09

that is, frankly, a relief. One

44:12

thing that, as I mentioned, doesn't quite hit for me

44:14

on this is like, I want to hear vocals. And

44:16

I do think one thing that pop stars

44:18

right now are really struggling with in this narrative

44:21

and metanarrative age is like, what am I

44:23

good at? What do people know me for?

44:26

How much do I want to play into that? How much do I

44:28

want to push back? How much do I want to challenge people? Am

44:31

I leaning in or am I undermining ideas

44:33

about myself? And also like, am I getting

44:35

out over my skis in any way? I

44:39

was thinking a lot about that idea when

44:41

I saw the Olivia tour. So

44:44

let's, can we talk about the Olivia tour?

44:46

Yeah, Olivia Rodrigo, back out here. I

44:49

did with the Breeders. Yeah, not yet.

44:52

But yeah, with Chapel Rhone, which is somehow funnier

44:54

than the Breeders in a way. Did

44:57

you see Chapel Rhone? You

45:07

did see Chapel Rhone. She's got songs.

45:10

She does have songs. And presents. She

45:12

does have presents. I

45:15

think she left a lot of people, the crowd,

45:17

confused. I think that's what she's there for. Yeah,

45:19

I think it's very strange. She said, the way

45:21

I took the Chapel Rhone opening performance is she

45:23

said all the things Olivia can't. It's

45:25

a little rated R for some of the... A

45:28

lot rated R. A lot rated R. No, she...

45:31

Olivia is still PG-13, no matter how much she says the

45:33

F word. And that is the thing, right? Because she says

45:35

the F word like a 13 year old. As

45:42

I was watching the show, so I went to opening

45:44

night in Palm Desert, California. Didn't

45:46

know they had shows there. They

45:50

do attend an arena that is home to

45:52

the Coachella Valley Firebirds, which

45:54

I looked up. Incredible.

45:57

Hockey team. Do you know how to play hockey in

45:59

Palm Desert? Desert, I love as a as

46:01

a childhood fan of the Orlando

46:03

solar bears I love some off-brand still

46:06

gonna show up in a solar beaurs

46:08

is always days Everyone

46:10

should watch sure Z also what's that? Oh

46:12

that no. Yes. I never watched it actually

46:14

incredibly funny. Okay. Yeah watch that Okay,

46:18

so a couple things Fan

46:23

cosplay, okay full effect

46:25

docks docks fishnets

46:28

You know like short to medium

46:30

length skirts tank tops

46:32

like Absolutely like like

46:35

a color palette that is resonant

46:37

from the sour album mostly Everybody

46:40

dressed up shout out also Cali

46:42

and styles who was out there

46:45

covering stuff For

46:47

how the fans were were interacting on girls

46:50

to the front And

46:52

also me. Yeah Also

46:57

This is strange to say but there was a Couple

47:00

with a daughter directly in front of us who

47:02

were having like the absolute time of their lives

47:05

and the guy kept going on live And

47:07

he had crazy followers And

47:09

it turned out to be I think

47:12

the former frontman of something

47:14

corporate Wow Yeah, Andrew. Damn.

47:16

I would pull this and

47:19

your man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. You were

47:21

close I mean, I've seen him light his

47:23

piano on fire. Not time Wow. Well, I'm

47:25

pretty sure it was him in front of

47:27

us going on live and having a Part

47:30

of it. I mean I had a great time. I

47:32

know we're having like a 10x time right over what

47:35

I was doing I may say shout out to Andrew.

47:37

I bet you Olivia Roger white water rocks

47:39

with some something corporate. I'm sure I mean literally

47:41

I sure Dan Niagara played shows with something corporate

47:43

I also haven't had to listen to something corporate

47:45

a really long time and I once I kind

47:47

of like put it all together Like I went

47:50

back to listen. I was like, oh, this is

47:52

like Rodrigo like absolute concrete of corn. Yeah, I

47:54

mean you dr If

48:09

you have more time in the day, would you take a

48:11

nap, read a book, talk with a friend? When

48:14

something is important to you, it's easier to make time

48:16

for it. Therapy can help you

48:18

decide what matters most. BetterHelp offers

48:20

affordable online therapy on your schedule. Start

48:23

the process in minutes and switch therapists any time.

48:26

Make time for what makes you happy with BetterHelp. Visit

48:28

betterhelp.com/PopcastPod today to get

48:31

10% off your first month. That's

48:34

BetterHelp, bglp.com/PopcastPod.

48:39

Okay, but watching the show, I kept

48:43

thinking Olivia is

48:45

being so careful about

48:47

the new things that

48:49

she's trying that don't disrupt

48:51

or distract from the things

48:53

that she's exceptional at. This

48:57

is not like unlike the first show, I did the first

48:59

tour as well, much more piano time I

49:01

felt at the first tour than at the second tour.

49:04

Here, you know, she's walking out. There's

49:06

like two, oh, there's like a catwalk. Yeah,

49:08

like two tentacles, like on either side. She's

49:10

walking out. She's singing at the end. There's

49:13

dance routines, like she's doing

49:17

sort of routines like like full choreo.

49:20

There is full choreo. She's

49:22

maybe doing two thirds

49:25

the level of the backup dancers, one

49:28

half of the talent. Right. Because

49:30

that's not doing like our tour was so streamlined. She

49:33

had to do covers because she didn't have enough time

49:35

enough song. Yeah. So, but

49:37

I was thinking a lot about that choice. And

49:40

can you imagine if you went to the Olivia Rodrigo

49:42

tour in 2024 and she did a full show bins,

49:48

right? It wouldn't feel right. So

49:51

she's taking these kinds of tentative

49:53

steps and actually weirdly reminded me

49:55

of Ariana's arena tour

49:57

from a roughly similar time in her career.

50:00

career. Although I will say

50:02

like Ariana having like a dancey hits at that

50:04

time and not dancing did not feel like I

50:06

don't want to get out of my skis as

50:08

much as I just don't do this. Like

50:11

I reluctantly made dance hits and like I wish

50:13

to not be held accountable for them. Whereas

50:15

Olivia was sort of like how can I

50:18

relateably like

50:20

be a person who does an

50:23

arena show, he's dancing but he's

50:25

not dancing to a point where it

50:27

puts anybody off. Frankly very Taylorish. I

50:29

was gonna say we like you

50:32

know like you gotta like it's

50:36

you gotta you gotta say it. Yeah she did

50:38

she it's a shame. She became that. Yes

50:40

and and I think we'll continue to but

50:42

I thought it was very very smart. I

50:44

really enjoyed the show but I thought it

50:46

was an incredibly smart way to inch

50:49

towards something bigger without overwhelming either

50:51

the fan base who still is

50:53

kind of living lightly in the

50:55

past or yourself and thinking like

50:57

I've got to become a totally different person. The

51:00

thing that you learn from the album

51:02

is she senses what the pitfalls of

51:05

becoming bigger are personally and

51:07

also structurally. It's notable

51:10

that she chose a structure for

51:12

this tour that is bigger in

51:14

terms of scale and ambition but

51:17

doesn't push her in ways where she

51:19

becomes uncomfortable. Right. Back to me it

51:21

was the most striking thing. But why

51:23

can't Olivia just stay as a person

51:25

of a band? Like why can't she

51:28

just be Alanis instead of becoming someone

51:30

who does choreography? I'm

51:32

not convinced that that's not available to

51:34

her. It does

51:36

seem like this felt like a

51:39

trial balloon or something. I'm also

51:41

with a mindset that we

51:43

don't know what the next Olivia album is gonna be.

51:45

Like it's funny like we talked about this album it's

51:47

like the rock album it's like a

51:51

third to a half that. But frankly

51:54

Olivia hasn't made Alanis songs.

51:56

She's made songs that gesture

51:58

to that. Sure. in terms of like

52:00

the rawness of it, even her most kind

52:03

of like, I'm rocking out

52:05

song. She's not Janis Joplin. No, they're

52:07

control. They're tightly, they have boundaries. She

52:09

hasn't totally gone rogue. And maybe if

52:11

she goes rogue and goes big, goes

52:14

rogue vocally, I should say, and goes

52:16

big, then maybe she can do the

52:18

thing that you're describing. But I do

52:20

think fundamentally what Olivia Rodrigo would like

52:22

to be is a big

52:24

pop star, but on different terms than

52:26

the pop stars that she clearly admires.

52:28

But she wants to bring a different

52:30

set of reference points to it. Do

52:33

you think there will be beats on the next

52:35

Olivia Rodrigo album? Regrettably,

52:37

yes. Okay. Yeah. Like,

52:40

I don't think that that's optimal

52:42

Olivia Rodrigo. I don't think it'll be canon.

52:45

But you think it's inevitable, don't

52:47

you? I don't know. I

52:49

think she could continue going

52:51

in the other direction. I don't know.

52:53

I didn't see the show yet, though. No, I think

52:56

right now, as we speak, Nigro

52:58

is fiddling around with some

53:00

Finneas type stuff. Okay.

53:03

And just to see. He's got his sound wave in the studio. Yeah, I

53:05

kind of feel like that's... They're going to at least

53:07

toy with it. Okay. I

53:10

also want to see Zach Bryan in Chicago last week.

53:13

Will there be beats on the next Zach Bryan album?

53:15

I mean, it's funny because that's... Maybe.

53:19

Like, it's as likely, maybe even

53:21

tiny, but more likely, frankly. Yeah.

53:25

Zach Bryan is also someone not getting

53:27

out over his skis in any way.

53:30

This is the fourth

53:33

Zach Bryan show I've seen in a year

53:36

and a half. Yeah. And like, yeah, one

53:38

and a half, two years. Sure. Yes.

53:41

In summer 22. They are all pretty

53:43

similar. The thing is... I... Yes.

53:47

The crowd at a Zach Bryan show, and I talked about this. You

53:50

know, I was

53:52

talking to Karen during the edit of the piece. Of

53:55

your review. Yeah, the review. And Karen was like,

53:57

yeah, but sing along. I was like, everybody has sing along. It's

54:00

like it's not the same like it's hard to

54:02

convey. I tried to convey in words, but it's

54:04

like a little bit difficult to convey the

54:07

earnestness and intensity and Almost

54:11

like physical vividness of a sing-along and a

54:14

Zach Bryan show. It's bar band. It's a

54:16

bar band in the stadium 18,000

54:18

people are in style and so

54:21

the thing about Zach Bryan He's very very

54:23

good at is cultivating that intimacy

54:25

which he's been doing for two plus years at

54:28

this point Convincing

54:30

every single person that they are the ones singing

54:32

to him And I will say the

54:35

crowd has expanded like when I saw him in 22

54:39

Very bro heavy Very

54:41

tall boy energy. Yes, very

54:44

bro. That's funny. Of course given the emotional complexity

54:46

I'd have to have the dad of the song

54:48

but that to me was the most striking thing

54:50

because I've been to plenty of shows That are

54:52

very bro heavy, but not

54:54

singing along like no, it would have be

54:56

like dashboard being bros Right exact.

54:58

That's exactly correct. Um, but

55:01

this go-around I was like, oh,

55:03

there's teenage girls here There's families

55:05

here. There's older folks But

55:09

very young folks like a lot of people

55:11

like very clearly between dream like pop this

55:13

one saying like a lot of people

55:15

between like let's say 15 and 21 and That

55:19

to me I'm looking I'm like, oh you are I mean,

55:21

I don't mean this pejoratively but it's

55:23

like you're a pop star Yeah, like you're a

55:25

pop star. I think those are radio fans. Like

55:28

are they there for the case in song? You've

55:30

got the case. We definitely got the case with

55:32

Casey. I thought the reaction. Yeah, that was huge

55:37

It's a little bit jam band like does

55:39

he still do the 10 minute at jam

55:41

outro? Yes the jam outro um,

55:43

I was very very struck

55:45

again by that level of sand

55:47

devotion and also his Understanding

55:49

of not pushing beyond

55:52

that now that said when when you

55:54

think about spring scene and spring scene

55:56

growing into a stadium act in the

55:58

80s even some someone

56:00

frankly like Ed Sheeran growing into a

56:02

stadium match from an arena act. They're

56:05

gonna have to be like tiny compromises

56:07

here and there and I wonder like

56:09

there's still a real interior energy about

56:12

Zach Bryan and he's kind of like

56:15

I'm going through this and obviously

56:17

I'm doing it in this intimate

56:19

way that still connects but I

56:21

do feel there's gonna have to

56:23

be some stage concession. He

56:25

is gonna have to run around. He is gonna have to

56:27

do a tiny bit of what Olivia is starting to do.

56:30

Like there is gonna be a- I think

56:32

he's gonna do a wall in like running

56:34

down the catwalk thing, taking off the jacket.

56:36

Absolutely. Bruce. Yes. So

56:39

to me that's what's obviously next for him. Like

56:41

I think he probably his next door is stadium

56:43

tours. I mean his three nights

56:46

sold out in Chicago, multiple

56:48

nights in New York coming, multiple nights in LA.

56:50

I think he probably is gonna end up doing

56:52

a stadium tour next year or the year after

56:55

but I don't think you stay at one side of the stadium. Like

56:57

I think he's gonna do the thing and if

56:59

there was like a trial balloon for that, it's

57:02

that the stage in this was in

57:04

the round. I mean it's just on the floor.

57:07

Four corners and he was

57:10

so meticulous. Right, about hitting

57:12

every corner. Every single song,

57:14

verse, little bit of the chorus,

57:17

back off, walk to the next point.

57:19

Verse, little bit of the chorus, back

57:21

off, walk to the next point and

57:23

did that methodically. Every single song.

57:26

So it's like you already understand how to work at

57:28

scale but your body's not doing anything. All you're doing

57:30

is walking. There is a 2.0 or

57:33

3.0 of this where it's gonna get bigger

57:35

and more ambitious and frankly I think it

57:37

has to because he may be running out

57:39

of runway, no pun intended, but

57:41

just to do this. There has

57:44

to be like how do we make

57:46

this an explosion? Not simply an

57:48

immersive like we're all in the tank with him but

57:50

how do you make it an explosion?

57:52

That seems like the next thing. Wow, I'm

57:55

ready. Speaking of explosions,

57:57

you can have any for Songs of the Week. This

58:01

is not an explosion. Okay. This is

58:03

mine also is not an explosion. Yeah.

58:05

Yeah, this is an

58:08

artist that I'm historically Taught

58:10

and cold on okay But

58:13

who I think is that a really interesting point

58:15

in his career young lean. Yes, Swedish

58:17

rapper Many

58:19

children. Oh, yeah grandchildren at

58:21

this point. Yeah. Yeah, like elder

58:24

statesman of Feeds upon see

58:26

yeah of a certain kind of gauzy

58:29

internet rap, I don't know like what whatever

58:31

you want to call it sure been

58:35

pretty Quiet popping up here

58:37

and there over the last few years but

58:39

put out a song Basically

58:41

just on YouTube and SoundCloud I think called

58:44

shadow boxing cardi core. Yeah, right

58:46

exactly Yeah, like, you know not

58:49

doing a full streaming rollout. I think is

58:51

really the move right now Yeah,

58:53

like just putting something here and there like

58:55

reminds me of even back in the day

58:57

like Migos return to

59:00

form was putting bad and bougie

59:02

on SoundCloud only and letting

59:04

it bubble from there In

59:06

the video he does a as a guy who's setting

59:09

a lot of trends. He does he has a he's like

59:11

mid haircut So he has like a inverse

59:13

mullet like just the middle of the head

59:15

shades with hair on either side I'm like,

59:18

we're gonna see yeah, can't wait somebody more

59:20

famous doing that quite

59:22

quite soon a lot

59:25

of Darkness like he's

59:27

alluding to some tragedy in his life.

59:29

Let's become very central I think

59:31

to the young lean lore, which again, I'm not

59:33

totally tuned in on Because

59:36

I'm not an obsessive like most young

59:38

young fan fans are And everything

59:40

that came after but I thought

59:43

this video and the song Were

59:45

a cool direction and I'm interested in what he

59:47

does with his sort of like Godfather status Do

59:49

you think he's gonna do anything with his Godfather

59:52

status? Cuz I do think one thing about young

59:54

lean is there does seem to be

59:56

a Reluctance on his part to do very

59:58

much with his Sort of like

1:00:01

I could do any like you think I could

1:00:03

do anything didn't he do was he with yay

1:00:06

Yeah, like there's photos of him with yay. He

1:00:08

popped up on the Travis Scott album. Yeah on

1:00:10

utopia You know, it's like he had that cool

1:00:13

record with FK twigs Like he's

1:00:15

just I think he's being very

1:00:17

selective with it It reminds

1:00:19

me of someone like King cruel who like

1:00:21

he was this huge cult figure But

1:00:23

didn't sort of take all the doors available

1:00:26

to them and has been very selective with

1:00:28

the way they spend their clout So

1:00:31

that's this shadowboxing Also

1:00:55

not an explosion But

1:00:58

I want to talk about ya ya bay for a minute, okay

1:01:01

Ya ya bay is a soul

1:01:04

singer Working

1:01:06

you know in a mode that

1:01:08

feels It's

1:01:11

indebted to like what I would think of as like downtempo

1:01:16

Like 1.0. Neos like neo

1:01:18

soul before it got codified

1:01:20

like real like for green

1:01:22

early to mid-90s energy Um,

1:01:26

yeah, yeah Bay has a very

1:01:28

soothing Vocal tone.

1:01:31

There is a new single. It's called

1:01:33

sir princess bad bitch There's

1:01:36

an album that ya bay put out a couple

1:01:38

years ago. I'm pretty sure we say debut. It's

1:01:40

called remember your North Star and More

1:01:43

than a lot of R&B records recently.

1:01:45

You really hear a specificity in the

1:01:47

tone It's

1:01:50

incredibly consistent consistent smooth

1:01:54

Relaxed but not reluctant.

1:01:58

It's not it's somehow like Very

1:02:00

very calm but like not in the

1:02:02

cut at all. It's not back here.

1:02:04

It's extremely like out front But

1:02:07

it it doesn't have

1:02:09

this kind of like force of dominance

1:02:12

I think it's a really impressive feet

1:02:14

to pull off before we play

1:02:16

the new song I do

1:02:18

I say yeah, I base father the rapper

1:02:20

granddaddy. I you was signed a cold chillin

1:02:22

in the 90s maybe

1:02:25

in ladies early 90s Um

1:02:29

Could we play a little granddaddy I you before we

1:02:31

play the I am a song never before said

1:02:33

on pop While

1:02:58

I make my parents no interruptions

1:03:00

no interference now that you see

1:03:02

where the words coming from This

1:03:04

is sir princess Oh

1:03:34

Shall we get to snacks we got

1:03:37

Rare extremely rare. I feel the next few

1:03:40

weeks like we I brought some stuff mad.

1:03:42

We upped Yeah, like the pantry

1:03:44

is thick again back of the week getting extreme.

1:03:46

Yes But

1:03:49

these I got girls kind of cookies coming also. I've

1:03:51

been wondering if we should deal with a little okay

1:03:53

good. Yeah Um These

1:03:55

come from Sawyer. Sorry was in

1:03:58

Brazil. Yes and brought back I

1:04:01

have seen some alt flavor

1:04:03

Snickers. They're actually sitting in my refrigerator because I

1:04:06

keep forgetting to bring them in Okay, I don't

1:04:08

know if it's these I don't think you get

1:04:10

these I don't think yeah, so we've got two

1:04:12

This is passion fruit and a lime Two

1:04:16

separate Snickers. Yeah, sorry a passion fruit

1:04:18

Snickers and a lime where

1:04:20

you add on Snickers regular honestly,

1:04:23

it is Probably

1:04:25

my number one soothing

1:04:28

candy bar. Okay, it's a candy bar that

1:04:30

I will occasionally mistake for health food I'm

1:04:35

sorry It is I

1:04:37

know not to be like that where it's

1:04:39

just like damn it really sad like you

1:04:41

don't want to be like that Yeah But

1:04:43

there are certain moments that I have where

1:04:45

I'm in between meals and I feel like

1:04:47

I need something that is sweet But also

1:04:49

substantive this is literally the ad I'm sorry,

1:04:51

but it literally solved it scratches that it's

1:04:54

for me The marketing work. No, I

1:04:56

invented the market. I'm not a draper Marketing.

1:05:00

I'm sorry. It literally it it's

1:05:03

actually Not solves

1:05:05

the problem. No, not spot It literally

1:05:07

solves the problem of a snack that

1:05:09

is both sweet and also sustaining and

1:05:11

not good for you It's not good,

1:05:13

but it's like what like every energy

1:05:15

bar It's literally how much worse

1:05:17

is it than the average energy bar that you

1:05:20

buy at like a health food store? That's above

1:05:22

my pay grade Which one

1:05:24

are you gonna do the math? I'm

1:05:26

gonna start with Lee now All right I'm

1:05:28

with you moose the Lee now because I

1:05:31

think I probably will like this less

1:05:33

than the passion fruit. Yeah Okay, I

1:05:35

don't like I can't imagine I'm

1:05:38

not a lime flavor guy not either. I

1:05:40

can't imagine it going not even in a

1:05:42

starry not even in a star I've

1:05:44

not had starry. All right. Cheers

1:05:46

lime Snickers from Brazil smells like

1:05:48

Snickers. Oh Oh

1:05:52

Oh, huh, huh?

1:05:55

Oh wouldn't it get flat who knew

1:05:57

yeah? Wow,

1:06:01

they really get the brightness and I also don't

1:06:03

terribly enjoy lime flavor, but this is an

1:06:05

interesting this is an interesting deployment of it

1:06:08

citrus chocolate Like,

1:06:10

you know the the very orange.

1:06:13

Yeah, very orange thing that breaks, you know,

1:06:15

I don't like those. Yeah, but Incorporated

1:06:17

in a similar way The

1:06:19

sort of essence of citrus, you know what this reminds me of

1:06:21

it's like you ever get a box of

1:06:24

chocolates? Yes Good

1:06:27

good. Diva. Okay, little box You're

1:06:30

like you eat all the good you eat all

1:06:32

the good ones Yeah You like the salted caramel

1:06:34

whatever like the go-to's and then like there's like

1:06:36

four left and they sit around for like six

1:06:38

weeks Yeah, and then eventually you eat them and

1:06:40

you're not as bad as I thought. Yeah, that's

1:06:42

what the lime snickers like Okay,

1:06:45

let's try the second one. Then we'll just scores after it

1:06:47

passion fruit Most

1:06:52

tomorrow kuja you eat passion

1:06:55

fruit as a fruit. No only as

1:06:57

a flavor Mmm.

1:07:01

Oh this one you can smell while so you

1:07:03

really I couldn't smell the lime

1:07:05

off that but this really wow This really hits

1:07:07

Wow. I haven't even tasted it yet, but I

1:07:09

can taste it. I Mean

1:07:15

No Mmm, too sweet

1:07:17

and perfumey The passion

1:07:19

fruit. I'm a taste like bath

1:07:21

and body works is fragrant. Yeah I Right

1:07:25

tastes like like bath bomb weirdly. This smell

1:07:27

is more intense on the taste. I think

1:07:29

mm-hmm But the combination the

1:07:32

two is too much whereas the lime is

1:07:34

weirdly subtle. Yeah, no, I agree This is

1:07:36

like OD. I like this though. I like

1:07:38

both Shocking I'm

1:07:41

so I know was more surprised on me. I'm

1:07:44

going for on the passion fruit seven

1:07:46

on the lime I'm

1:07:48

going six on the passion fruit. I'm going

1:07:50

eight on the line Wow I

1:07:52

think the light like I'm advocating

1:07:54

for the lime to be put

1:07:56

into general release. Okay. Yeah, absolutely.

1:07:58

All right unbelievable Really

1:08:01

interesting if you can get your

1:08:04

hands on rare Snickers. Yeah, go

1:08:06

nuts with the fruit plate. Innovations. Shout out

1:08:08

to the food scientists. Yeah, always. That

1:08:11

is our show. Every Popcast ever is

1:08:13

at nytimes.com/Popcast. I'm sorry, I meant to

1:08:16

say every I Heart

1:08:18

Podcast award-winning podcast. What

1:08:21

was the submission window? Do we know

1:08:23

what episodes? Is that for calendar year?

1:08:25

You were definitely on something. Okay. Okay.

1:08:27

Yeah. nytimes.com/Popcast. Subscribe

1:08:30

to us. youtube.com

1:08:33

slash Popcast. Press the button.

1:08:36

Press the... Do something. Like

1:08:38

and subscribe and comment. Also,

1:08:41

the comments are always amazing.

1:08:44

We have a Zazzle store. You have

1:08:47

a Zazzle store. A Zazzle store

1:08:49

exists. There are mugs or

1:08:51

other things. Also, it's

1:08:53

the Popcast on myshopify.com is where

1:08:55

the stickers are. tinyworld.com/Popcast

1:08:58

Discord, Popcast Facebook. Shout out

1:09:00

to everybody who helps us

1:09:02

moderate those. Keeps folks engaged.

1:09:05

Email us. We're going to have a mail bag pretty soon.

1:09:07

Popcast to nytimes.com. Our

1:09:10

senior producer is Sawyer Roque. Our

1:09:12

editor is Jamie Effetz, remote this

1:09:14

week. In the room with us

1:09:16

is Pat Gunther. Special thanks to

1:09:18

Karen Gans, Noga Logley, Pedro Rosado,

1:09:20

Leslie Davis. Nina Waffen.

1:09:23

We'll be back next week.