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how a wooden table is built piece by piece.

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The value of investments may fall as well as rise, and

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to the New York Times Popcast. You are,

0:45

if I was a boy, then I be

0:47

the boy of music, music, and criticism. I

0:50

am your host, John Karamonica. But

0:58

you should have seen him running for... We're

1:01

listening to My Boy Only Breaks,

1:03

his favorite toys. That's Taylor from

1:05

the Tortured Poets Department.

1:09

As you know, the Tortured Poets Department

1:11

is out. Deluxe came out a

1:13

couple of days ago with Joe

1:16

and I talking about the album. This

1:18

week in this episode, it's

1:20

mailbag time. We put out the big

1:22

call. I want to be honest, so

1:25

many responses to make me wonder, as

1:27

I often wonder, should we just go

1:29

all Taylor all the time? Should

1:31

we just do 52 weeks, 52 episodes, all

1:34

Taylor? And one of the things that I was

1:36

actually really psyched to see, so

1:38

many first time question

1:40

askers. I feel like I know

1:42

everyone's name who asked questions, and

1:44

there were so many people who

1:47

were asking their first question. A lot

1:49

of long time first times, which I'm

1:51

really pumped to see. So we're going

1:53

to get into a bunch of esoteric

1:56

corners of Swiftiana today. Some

1:58

of you have been demanding. the

2:00

presence of Karen Gans. And Karen

2:03

Gans, I am pleased to report,

2:05

is here. Karen Gans, pop

2:08

music out of the New York Times, hello. Hello, it's true,

2:10

I'm back. I was summoned

2:12

like the ghost on Florida. That

2:15

Florence is singing and... A

2:17

very strange song. Everybody's so busy liking that

2:20

song that no one's talking about how effing

2:22

weird it is. So we will

2:24

get to that. Karen is here, and also, Tom

2:27

Bryan is here. Tom, the Don

2:29

Dada of Stereogum, author of the

2:31

first and one of the loudest

2:33

and most pointed reviews of this

2:35

album. Tom, how

2:37

long did you sleep after that review

2:39

posted? What up, everybody? Happy to

2:42

be here. Let's torture some poets. The

2:44

sleeping was weird. I got in

2:46

advance of the album maybe six hours before the

2:48

album came out, as some critics did. And

2:50

then I went to sleep that night, beasted

2:53

out on my review, and then I felt a disturbance

2:55

in the force. And I

2:57

woke up like 2 a.m. and I was like, oh,

2:59

okay, of course, here we go. It's

3:01

a whole other album. My review

3:03

is now obsolete. You

3:06

could feel it through

3:08

your slumber. You could feel it. Yes, because that's

3:10

what it takes to be a music critic. You

3:12

got to be plugged in like that. That's what

3:15

I'm saying. A lot of y'all... That's

3:17

what I'm talking about. A lot of y'all are like, am

3:19

I cut out to be a music critic? Do I have

3:21

what it takes? Do

3:24

I have the perception of steel to

3:27

do this work? If you

3:29

didn't wake up out of a slumber,

3:31

sweaty and nervous at 2 a.m., knowing

3:33

that Taylor Swift had dropped an additional

3:35

15 songs onto streaming services, I think

3:37

the answer is no. Tom B.

3:39

You don't have to be there. You don't have

3:41

to be out on the street. You don't have

3:44

to go to 10 shows a week. You just

3:46

have to feel it. You have

3:48

to know the vibrations flowing through the universe. That's

3:51

right. And they're telling you, you got a whole

3:53

other hour of stuff you got to review by 10 in the

3:55

morning. So get on it. I

3:57

just got to feel it. I didn't feel it. I have to

3:59

be honest. You're fired. I went to bed. I

4:02

went to bed and

4:05

one woke up to a lot of messages and

4:07

slacks asking me if we were

4:09

going to mention the second album in our story and I

4:11

was like, oh god. This

4:13

is so as some of as some people

4:16

know, I am like technically on leave. I'm

4:18

on book leave right now, but I certainly

4:20

would have been awake at that

4:22

hour just because I was probably awake anyway at

4:24

that hour. And I can imagine

4:27

how I would have felt frantically

4:30

texting you at

4:32

two in the morning and being like, oh

4:34

yeah, no, he would have woken up. It's

4:36

like when you text me at eight in

4:38

the morning to be like, so something terrible

4:40

happened. You have to get up and write about

4:42

it. Those are our times. Anyway, we

4:45

have, dare I say,

4:47

a preposterous bordering on improbable amounts

4:49

of questions. There's

4:51

no universe in which you're going to get them

4:54

all. There are themes that have emerged. What

4:56

I will say is if Joe

4:58

and I touched on some

5:00

of your question unintentionally, unknowingly,

5:03

we're not going to repeat that today. We're going

5:05

to go into other corners. If you have thought,

5:08

listen to Deluxe, maybe we touched on it there.

5:12

I want to talk about first of

5:14

all, how many of these questions come

5:16

from thoughtful, hearing,

5:20

under-Swifties, not Stan Stans, but

5:22

like real thoughtful, longtime fans.

5:25

But I'm really struck by this

5:28

one thing that's come up in a bunch of

5:30

questions. And it really makes

5:33

me realize how mainstream

5:35

Stan kind of commentary

5:38

and Stan strategizing has become in

5:40

the normal sorts of criticism, in

5:42

the normal sorts of conversation. So

5:45

this question encapsulates a little bit of that. And

5:50

then Annabelle says, is the double album

5:52

released rather than editing down to just

5:55

the TTPD album a conscious effort to

5:57

flood the zone? and

6:00

accelerate the Taylor news cycle

6:03

to get to, quote, Taylor

6:06

fatigue narrative that mirrors

6:09

the energy pre-reputation OG

6:11

version. So that's a

6:13

Taylor's version album release of

6:16

Reputation works narratively.

6:21

I don't think that was the goal. I

6:23

think the thinking was that these were all

6:25

songs worthy of release and

6:27

that fans have demonstrated

6:30

a seemingly insatiable desire to have her

6:32

songs. So why not give them more?

6:35

I don't think that the fatigue

6:37

narrative was anticipated, but

6:40

I think it's real. The craziest thing to

6:42

me, John, is that I understood every word

6:44

you just said. I know, but that's exactly

6:46

what I, that was my takeaway. It

6:49

sounded like something that we need to like

6:51

connect all the rich rates on a dark

6:54

board somewhere to get to all that,

6:56

but it was like, no, okay. I

6:58

get it all, but no, I think I

7:00

agree with Karen. Also Annabelle

7:03

Winter sounds like the name of a Taylor Swift character.

7:05

I just want to say that real quick. You think

7:07

it's a gnome to pen? I

7:10

thought it was Anna Wintar. And I was

7:12

like, wow. Do you think it's Taylor pen

7:14

names to ask us our

7:16

opinion? If it is, that's

7:18

the most talented brain shit I've ever heard of

7:20

in my life. You got lost in Annabelle Winter.

7:23

I think that Taylor Swift is existing

7:25

in a state of perpetual flow where

7:27

she is always working. And as someone

7:29

who publishes like a 3000 word essay

7:33

every day, I can understand

7:35

that. And I think that- You are the

7:38

Taylor Swift of stereo gum, like in indisputable

7:40

ways. I mean, that's the nicest thing anyone

7:42

ever said to me. Flood the zone is

7:44

for default setting right now. I think she

7:46

is in the zone where she knows that

7:48

people want to hear from her, at

7:51

least a large sizable portion of the public

7:53

wants to hear from her, even if other

7:55

people are getting tired of her. And

7:58

she is going to keep going. until

8:00

she feels that she's tapped out and she

8:02

feels that her audience is tapped out. And

8:05

the early response to Tortured Goats

8:07

suggests a couple of different possibilities

8:09

there. But the thing is, it's

8:11

the number one album of the

8:13

year thus far, and was

8:15

within 48 hours of its release. So

8:19

even a soft Taylor

8:22

Swift reception is beyond Blockbuster

8:24

for anyone else. I

8:27

will say one thing about the numbers, though. Obviously,

8:29

there was a huge number of per-orders and

8:31

people were buying vinyl and a huge demand

8:33

to stream it all the first day. But

8:36

I think a lot of it, obviously,

8:38

was curiosity. What was this going to

8:40

be? If you look at the Spotify numbers

8:42

today while we're recording, the single has

8:44

66 million listens. And then the first

8:46

few songs, 42, 39 million. But

8:49

when you get all the way to the bottom of track 31, we're

8:52

hovering around 10 and 11 million. Yeah, they're not that

8:54

crazy, the numbers. Yeah. So I have the feeling that

8:56

we're going to see. Well, that's baby stuff.

8:58

I have a feeling we're going to see some

9:00

different check-in and seed weeks. Yikes.

9:04

My guy. You're bringing the knives. How dare you

9:06

drag my guy? No,

9:09

these companies are so freakin baffling that

9:11

I hate to think about them. I

9:13

get so tired. I just had to

9:15

write another blog post about how Taylor

9:18

Swift is dumping on everyone else's music

9:20

industry combined. She's like, when the

9:22

big show comes in at the Royal Rumble

9:24

and everybody has to try and shove him

9:26

over the top rope, they all got to

9:28

do it together. That's if people

9:31

were mad at Taylor Swift in the business right

9:33

now, it would be like that. It's

9:35

boring how dominant she is.

9:38

And I say that as a fan. Two

9:40

things. One, I forgot that

9:42

I have two wrestling superfans

9:44

as guests. I could probably

9:47

just leave and let you guys do wrestling metaphors for

9:49

the next 45 minutes. Number

9:51

two, I will say, the thing that

9:53

you just described sounds a lot to

9:56

me like what's happening with Drake right

9:58

now in a different way. in form.

10:01

Drake versus his antagonist,

10:03

Taylor versus her competitors.

10:06

There can be only one. And as Drake

10:08

said, the biggest gangster in the music business

10:11

is Taylor Swift. I just want

10:13

to offer a mild descent to

10:15

your, the very level

10:18

headed, like I'm a pro

10:20

answers that you guys just gave you. It's like, I'm

10:22

a pro. I've been paying attention to Taylor Swift. I

10:25

know what Taylor's doing. Let's

10:27

offer like a mild descent. I

10:30

do think that sometimes

10:32

in life, and I'm not

10:34

speaking necessarily only about Taylor Swift, I'm

10:36

just saying abstractly, sometimes

10:39

in life, you feel

10:41

a certain level of anxiety or tension

10:43

or focus or energy, and it makes

10:45

you do more things, which then replicates

10:48

or amplifies the anxiety, which then makes

10:50

you do more and things get hypertrophy

10:52

and more and more intense. And then

10:54

that leads to a certain kind of

10:57

music or a certain kind of creative

10:59

or professional output, which then leads to

11:01

a certain kind of feeling

11:03

that people have when they consume that, which

11:06

then leads to you feeling a certain way

11:08

when you see how you are making other

11:10

people feel. What I am saying

11:12

is that the mode that Taylor is going in,

11:14

I think may,

11:18

maybe it's inadvertent, but maybe

11:20

designed to trigger some

11:23

kind of response that feels

11:25

similar to Reputation Era. It

11:29

may be subconscious,

11:32

but I think it's not out of the

11:34

question that could happen. I

11:37

have seen online, there's a pattern

11:39

that like this is all an

11:42

effort, a conscious move

11:44

to go toward the Reputation

11:47

Taylor's version. I don't

11:49

think that's true. I think she

11:51

definitely exhibits some resentment to

11:53

her own overwhelming fame and

11:56

the effects that it is

11:58

raw on the record. But

12:00

I don't think that she's like, uh,

12:03

I'm gonna make up sick of me. Like I

12:05

don't think that's that's that's in her being it

12:07

I don't think that she thought people were

12:10

sick of her in reputation era for real

12:13

I just think that she realized

12:15

that she was viewed in ways

12:17

that she wasn't totally Plugged

12:19

into but I think she is plugged into the

12:22

fact that some people view her that way now

12:25

Anyway, I'm just again not totally red-bell

12:27

just saying that could be the case

12:30

Here's the sort of inverse of that question.

12:32

Okay, this is from Solvig

12:34

Hertzum Solvig says I'm an

12:36

early days die-hard Swiftie who

12:39

has now this year after 15 years

12:42

gotten my fill because of the billionaire

12:44

stuff and Because it sounds

12:46

like his midnight was bad which are dirty there.

12:49

Here's the question I distinctly remember Taylor

12:51

saying in an early 2010 ish

12:54

interview that she'll only

12:56

be around as long as quote people

12:58

want her to be and Would

13:01

retire into a quiet life

13:03

when audiences stopped caring about

13:05

her Taylor has always toyed

13:07

with this idea of stepping in and out

13:09

of the spotlight on her own terms Perhaps

13:12

why hashtag Taylor Swift is over party

13:15

was so traumatic to her But

13:17

do you think she'll ever truly step away

13:19

from the fame is? Ttpd

13:21

the last gasp of her winner takes

13:23

all year before she takes a real

13:26

break It

13:28

would be nice if she took a bit of it. Do you think

13:30

but do you think there's any truth that do you think there's any

13:32

truth to The

13:34

minute like look Let's

13:36

just call it the numbers perspective. We're still going

13:39

up up up up. We're selling 2 million first

13:41

week We're up. We're doing in sync numbers. We're

13:43

doing in sync numbers in 2024, right? Do

13:46

you think the minute that plateaus and starts to go

13:48

down? She just says I'm

13:50

gonna go produce movies. Bye. No,

13:52

she's a she's an animal She

13:55

is look I'm going to the damn air

13:57

store. All right, she could have sold out

13:59

CDs by doing half of that.

14:01

She did not be doing half of that.

14:03

She did it. Her

14:06

whole presentation, for

14:08

songs that are, you made two mellow acoustic albums and

14:11

you're doing Dancer

14:13

Team's Druids. It's a lot and

14:16

she does that because to her, this is

14:18

what a pop star does. She

14:20

takes pop stardom very seriously. And

14:23

she'll keep talking about making a movie or whatever.

14:25

Maybe she will. But like, if you

14:28

look at Taylor Swift's filmography, it's

14:30

not going to inspire any rapturous

14:34

deep dives. She's really good at being a

14:36

pop star. And I think she's going to

14:38

continue to be a pop star for the

14:40

result of pop stardom as available to her.

14:43

And if this thing breaks, if she stops

14:45

being anywhere near as popular as she is,

14:47

she's still going to be the biggest.

14:50

Like, it's going to be like drink

14:52

or whatever. But it's like, she's going

14:54

to be, by default, the biggest pop

14:56

star in the world until we get

14:58

some other like, global generational phenomenon, who

15:00

is rising anywhere from us. We'll

15:03

see. Chappel Rohn? Is that what you're saying?

15:06

No. No, I sure did. Chappel

15:08

Rohn episode coming soon? Question

15:10

mark? TBD. TK. Potentially.

15:14

Who can say, really? Like, a lot of

15:17

things about Chappel Rohn. Who can say? Next

15:19

question. And to be fair, some of this

15:21

next question was covered on Deluxe, but because

15:23

of who sent this email, I felt like

15:25

it was important that we put it on

15:28

the show. And this email comes from

15:30

a friend of the pod and friend

15:32

of Karen Gans. It's Jim Cantiello. That's

15:34

right. Jim Cantiello is dropping a note.

15:36

Jim says the only

15:39

conversation that I've seen on Twitter

15:41

among Swifty speaking positive about this

15:43

album is related to song

15:45

lyrics and timestamp things, et cetera.

15:48

And that right there is the only

15:50

barometer of quality. No actual discussion of

15:52

melody or production. Easter

15:55

eggs are the whole eggs. Dot dot dot dot.

15:58

Is this not the musical equivalent of

16:00

comic book nerds losing their mind that Iron Man

16:02

3 dropped a beep boop boop in the mid-credits

16:09

sequence that tees up a Blob Bippity

16:12

Boop for the Avengers. I

16:15

guess here's the major difference between Taylor

16:17

and the MCU, Marvel movies don't win

16:19

best picture. Is Taylor

16:21

and Taylor Lore just the MCU

16:24

at this point? Hi

16:27

Jim. Also Jim with the Big Danny Goki

16:29

shoutout in the PS FYI. Yeah,

16:31

of course she is. There's nothing

16:34

else you can compare to. The

16:36

extent to which she has dominated

16:39

all thought music conversation for the

16:41

last couple of years is the

16:43

same as Marvel was for like

16:46

2012 to 2019 I guess. And

16:49

yeah, people got tired of the MCU

16:51

stuff eventually. But okay, but there's

16:53

something about the MCU and I don't watch these

16:55

movies, but at least from seeing

16:57

the discourse, it's additive right?

16:59

It's we are gonna plant the, like you said,

17:02

there's a blippity bloop to set up a whole

17:04

new franchise spin-off and how do we have a

17:06

movie that we could get Paul Rudd in and

17:08

how do we get a movie that we can

17:10

have this other actor in. The

17:13

Taylor Lore to me is much

17:15

more cloistered. It's much richer

17:18

is maybe a tough thing to be

17:20

saying in this particular album cycle, but

17:23

it's much more like how do we

17:25

fill in the same space with like

17:27

way more colors than how do we

17:30

add and grow the size of the

17:32

space. Unless I'm misreading what the MCU

17:34

really is about. As

17:36

someone who's written about a lot of movies,

17:40

the MCU's issue right now is

17:42

that it got trapped up in

17:44

some butt with like multiple universes

17:46

and self-referentiality. And there

17:48

is a case you made with Taylor

17:50

Swift who is an actual person and

17:52

not a company making comic book movies

17:55

and who is writing about her life, but it

17:57

feels the same way where everything is a reference

18:00

to something else. Karen,

18:02

do you watch MCU movies? I

18:05

don't really watch any movies, which is embarrassing, because I was

18:07

a film major. Because you just watched Seinfeld. I

18:09

watched Seinfeld and Housewives and look at my phone,

18:12

unfortunately. And Drag Race. Oh, yeah,

18:14

and Drag Race. Shout out, new few, wind, our new winner. Part

18:17

of my issue is this is I don't want to

18:19

think about these characters so much. This is part of

18:21

what my issue was with the album. It's like I

18:23

really just wanted to listen to a bunch of songs.

18:26

And I wanted some of them to make

18:28

me feel differently. And I

18:30

wanted my ear to hear different sounds.

18:32

I wanted different tempos, perhaps, and different

18:34

instrumentation. I think Taylor's

18:36

obviously a brilliant songwriter. And I am

18:38

not here for all this self-narrative. OK,

18:42

we've gotten this far into the

18:44

episode. And we haven't. Look,

18:47

let's be generous for a minute, right? I

18:49

don't think this is any of our favorite

18:51

Taylor album. It's

18:54

certainly bottom three, I would say,

18:57

possibly lower than that. But what's a

18:59

song on this album that you

19:02

actually really like? I'm curious to hear.

19:05

Karen, what song do you go to?

19:07

Is it Florida? Is that the one? I have

19:10

a couple of favorites. Florida is definitely number one.

19:27

Why is that song not good? Can

19:30

you tell? What

19:32

is it? Sounds great, John. Four, I

19:35

think, Four, 12. You should just

19:37

give it. Four, 12, I should just jump

19:39

out of an episode of Ghosts on CBS.

19:41

That's how she really did. I know. Never

19:43

worked. Never worked. Oh, no. I love it.

19:45

No one ever took me to the Hollywood

19:47

Bowl to see Florence. I guess I just

19:49

don't get it. Don't see it. I

19:52

love Florence. I felt like they interacted really well.

19:54

I think that song actually has a real energy

19:56

and a vibe and a differentness

19:58

to it. They interacted like a- And a ghost

20:01

chasing the bird and then the bird in turn

20:03

chasing. Oh my god I'll

20:06

let you have that I don't love all

20:09

of the lyrics But I like

20:11

enough of them and I do I'll

20:13

see a lot of people writing in a cringe

20:15

way about the line about her friends All smelling

20:17

like weed or babies. I think that's an awesome

20:19

line for people in their 30s I think that's

20:21

extremely accurate and apt and I liked it. It

20:23

rang true Although I'm now person in

20:25

my 40s But still and I don't

20:27

know the song just it has a vibe which

20:29

so many of the other songs don't have It

20:32

does have so I love it. I like so

20:34

long London. Yes one of the better songs I'm

20:38

just getting color

20:40

back Keeps in my

20:42

face I'm just

20:44

mad as hell cause I

20:47

love this The

20:52

music and the lyrics support its dramatic sweep.

20:54

Yeah, it's got some nice smoothie. That's good

20:58

Yeah, I like the title track.

21:00

Yeah me too. I like the first part

21:02

of the album a bit more. I don't mind Fortnite I like

21:04

it. I feel like she harmonizes really well with Post Malone I

21:06

forgot he was on the song when I was first listening to

21:08

it. I was like This

21:35

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23:15

better on Cowboy Carter or better on

23:17

TTPD? Better

23:19

here. Cowboy Carter. Cowboy Carter.

23:22

He's in that like broken ball zone

23:24

on Cowboy Carter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic.

23:26

Yeah, yeah. He's fine. Also,

23:28

all right, not less for me. He was been awakened, something

23:31

that was awakened in him on Cowboy Carter

23:33

that is not awakened on this album, I

23:35

don't think. Tom, what about

23:37

you? What are some songs that you're

23:39

like, okay. I think there's joints on

23:42

this album. I'm not like, it might

23:44

be my least favorite, Taylor Swift

23:46

album, and I think it still has some fire

23:48

on it. I think she's like

23:50

what? I want to say, I love Taylor Swift

23:52

for herself. I want to get that out there.

23:54

Yes, for anyone listening, we

23:56

love Taylor Swift. We love

23:59

Taylor Swift, all of us. Anybody has the 2008 back

24:02

issues of Elle magazine that aren't online

24:04

anymore. They know I've been writing.

24:07

I think I can do it with a broken

24:09

heart. It's probably the best song on the record.

24:11

It's the one that I think

24:13

has the closest thing to

24:15

a new idea. Just putting her

24:17

on something that's like Al Spie, I think it's

24:19

cool. I like the

24:22

way it takes her

24:25

utterly baffling, completely

24:27

unique situation of

24:30

I am hurting so bad and I have

24:32

to perform pride and gratitude in front of

24:34

all these people all the

24:36

time, constantly. It makes that really

24:39

compelling. I think that sounds really good. I really

24:41

like Claire Beaux. The Black Dog, I

24:43

think is really good. There's joints

24:45

on here. Those songs

24:48

that I'm excited to hear again. Yeah.

24:53

Hmm. I

24:55

got into my favorites on the prior

24:57

episodes. I'm not going to overstate it,

24:59

but just to because I would like

25:01

to blow your minds specifically, I

25:04

do want to say that my

25:06

preferred songs on the main album

25:08

are the Destiner songs, which is

25:10

shocking for the person that basically

25:13

wrote off folklore and said

25:15

that this is not the way. These

25:17

Destiner songs to me are good. They're

25:20

good. They allow Taylor to be as close

25:22

to the Taylor that I believe her and

25:24

know her to be capable of being. They

25:27

nurture her most coherent songwriting. I

25:29

believe. Which songs, John? It's just...

25:32

I honestly think Love of My Life, L-O-M-L. I truly

25:34

believe that it's old Taylor

25:37

and not

25:40

that it's

25:42

impossible for

25:45

new Taylor to

25:56

be good. I'm just saying it's true

25:58

to form. The singing is

26:00

good. My main note, and again, I said

26:02

this on the other episode, I

26:05

am really struggling with the

26:07

overall lack of investment in the singing

26:09

on this album.

26:11

The production is a totally different

26:14

thing, but the singing feels really

26:16

safe and restrained. And Taylor

26:18

is not a powerhouse vocalist that's never

26:20

been her thing, but what

26:22

she achieves within the range of

26:24

her voice is quite impressive. I

26:27

think that she's stepping back from that. It

26:29

does feel like it's not, she's not trying

26:31

as hard with that in mind.

26:34

This next question, which is actually sort of

26:36

the antidote to the MCU question. And this

26:38

I thought was fascinating because I did think

26:41

a little bit about some of this as I was listening. So

26:44

this question comes from Drew Carr. Drew

26:46

says wondering how much, if

26:49

anything, do you think Taylor owes to

26:51

or is being hindered by her more

26:53

adventurous side of

26:55

songwriting peers, Phoebe

26:58

slash boy genius, Mitski, Sufjan,

27:00

Adrian, I

27:03

assume Lenker as the production choices seem to fade

27:05

ever deeper into the shades

27:07

of the same Antonoff, Destner

27:10

colors. She seems more inclined to lean into

27:12

the tendencies of these folks, formally,

27:15

lyrically, et cetera, which

27:17

in my humble opinion, just isn't where she

27:19

sparkles. She's a very,

27:22

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

27:24

very dangerous. She's

27:26

not always sure how to pair seemingly unconnected

27:29

specifics a la the memory

27:32

poems of Lenker and Sufjan work

27:34

concisely in the Mitski mode without

27:37

ending up trite and the hyper specifics and

27:39

humor self of Phoebe works only intermittently

27:43

at other times feeling like imitation as the saddest

27:45

form of flattery.

27:48

So what do you make of this? What

27:50

do you make of Taylor's relationship to this

27:53

class of songwriter? How

27:55

do you guys think about the

27:57

sort of like specter of a

27:59

lot? hanging over a part of this

28:01

record. But start

28:04

with this, because I think this is

28:06

interesting, because Taylor is both, these songs

28:08

to me are both very steeped in

28:10

specific details, but they are not the

28:12

classic storytelling Taylor, not as much as

28:14

like early Taylor. They're detailed in the

28:16

way of early Taylor, but the storytelling

28:18

is not exactly like early Taylor. So

28:21

tell me what you think about this

28:24

and Taylor's connection to this class of

28:26

singer-songwriter. Taylor's songwriting to

28:28

me is internal, and I

28:30

don't really see her in relation to any of

28:32

those people, but I was going to say that

28:34

this is the first time I hear her hearing

28:36

the footsteps of other artists, although these just wouldn't

28:39

be the artists that I cite. I

28:41

would say Lana for sure. I

28:43

think one of my first notes on the first

28:45

line was, oh my God, it's so Lana in

28:47

vocal tone. Yeah, and like a

28:49

couple of the Jack productions, you're just like,

28:52

okay, like I see the threads

28:54

here. Yeah, but I also see, and

28:56

obviously this is a dangerous artist

28:58

to bring up in the conversation, but I hear

29:00

her hearing the footsteps of Olivia Rodrigo in

29:02

several places on the record. Absolutely. I

29:04

think that she has developed a new taste for the

29:07

F word, perhaps in

29:09

line with the younger artist who also appreciate

29:11

it. And obviously I have a hunch why

29:13

she held back for so long before letting

29:15

it out now. But anyway, I hear

29:18

these artists' footsteps more than I do, Mitzki or

29:20

Phoebe or some

29:22

of these other people who I feel many of them

29:24

are actually, it's the other way around when they're writing

29:27

in a more Taylor mode. I could be wrong. Taylor

29:30

Swift is making stadium pop music. Angelina

29:32

Weintraut is not her peer. That's

29:35

good stuff to me. Like

29:39

Mitzki is this incredible music business

29:41

success story where she's this called

29:43

hero. She's not in the same universe

29:46

as Taylor Swift. Like what are we talking about? I

29:49

think what Karen said is totally

29:51

right. I think the fact that

29:53

she presumably bites a

29:55

whole Olivia Rodrigo like lyrical

29:57

scheme on here and like makes

29:59

it. sleeping is very funny. I'm

30:02

sure that's a sensitive area but that's just

30:04

funny to me. I think

30:06

she listens to a lot of Lana and

30:08

I think Lana's probably

30:11

been an influence on the last, what,

30:13

like five, six Taylor albums. The people

30:15

who she considers to be peers, I

30:17

do think that Phoebe is one of

30:19

those. And we know Taylor thinks are

30:21

her peers and she makes playlists, you

30:23

know, she like gets the people

30:25

she really likes to open the hairs tour. That's

30:28

who I think she is in

30:30

conversation with. She's not making this

30:32

stuff secret. And also she

30:35

invites them to sing verses

30:38

on vault tracks that make it

30:40

clear that they are friendly

30:43

but lesser. They

30:46

are not peers. Yes.

30:49

My answer to this question is slightly different, which

30:51

is I think if

30:53

we take as a given

30:57

that the songwriting on this album, even though

30:59

it is more specific, is also more fragmented.

31:01

There are a lot of songs that feel

31:04

like they're in parts. Like not to be

31:06

like, this is like a Travis Scott album.

31:08

But there are songs where I'm just like,

31:10

there's three sections to this song. Taylor is

31:13

not historically like, I have movements in my

31:15

songs type of perform. But there are there

31:17

are songs on this album that I feel

31:20

like have movements, or perhaps are pasted together

31:22

from maybe a couple of different parts, maybe

31:24

in the studio, maybe by a producer. But

31:27

I think if you're thinking about

31:29

Taylor songwriting through the lens of

31:31

that fragmentation, again,

31:33

I don't think I'm sure Taylor does listen

31:36

frankly, to these people, but I don't know

31:38

if she's getting inspiration. But I think the

31:40

fragmentation in that songwriting does

31:42

not feel indebted to the sorts

31:44

of unconventional songwriting approaches

31:47

of this particular group

31:49

of people. That'd be my guess. It's

31:52

China seems like the 1975. Like is

31:54

that fair? Yeah, that came up came

31:56

up in the prior episode. Like there's

31:58

definitely stuff on here. And 1975,

32:00

a great example of an unstable

32:03

sonic idea of a band, just

32:05

like we're making it up as

32:07

we go. We're figuring it out.

32:09

And there's a little bit of that making up

32:11

as we go on this album, this Taylor album,

32:13

to say nothing of the last two Taylor albums

32:15

as well. Okay, there's

32:18

a lot of questions about where Taylor's going to go from

32:20

here. But this specific question

32:22

is, to me, it's a

32:24

question I've avoided for one or two cycles, but

32:26

I think is maybe now is the right time

32:28

to ask this question. This

32:31

is from Joel Bleckinger. Forgive me

32:33

if I'm mispronouncing that. Joel

32:35

says, why do you

32:37

think Taylor has steadfastly resisted,

32:40

quote, returning to country

32:42

in her official discography? It

32:45

seems like it would be such an

32:47

easy move and buy her an entire

32:49

album cycle of adoration, both from her

32:52

initial country fans, and even from fans

32:54

that have been fatigued by the Ansonoff,

32:56

Desner, Sonic, Soup. Now,

32:58

this is an evergreen question. You could have

33:00

asked this at any time after the last

33:02

like four or five albums. But

33:05

I do think it's particularly interesting now, because

33:07

country is having an incredible pop

33:10

crossover moment. Mainstream country

33:12

stars are selling out arenas

33:14

and in some cases, stadiums,

33:17

in the same way that like when Garth Brooks

33:19

was doing like arena country, people are like, that

33:21

guy is not a real country. And now everybody's

33:23

we love Garth Brooks. We were worship it is

33:25

all you can see a Taylor,

33:28

a country leaning Taylor album

33:31

moving in that direction and bringing

33:33

people in at that high level. There

33:35

was also another question about like country

33:38

Taylor and country, country Beyonce, cowboy

33:40

Carter, which isn't

33:43

exactly here. But it does

33:45

make me think, okay, is

33:47

this now back in play,

33:50

especially after the decidedly mixed

33:52

response and people's seeming seemingly

33:55

being over the Ansonoff sound

33:58

especially is this idea. idea

34:00

potentially back in play for Taylor circa

34:02

2025 to 2030. Is

34:05

this the soundtrack of the

34:08

Swift Kelsey wedding, which is

34:10

the Taylor country album? You think this

34:12

is back in play at all? I

34:14

don't think it's back in play that immediately because it

34:16

would feel like a retreat. Everything

34:19

that Taylor does these days is set up like a

34:21

war. And I don't see her

34:23

ceding a position anytime soon. So that's number one.

34:26

Number two is I don't think that she would

34:28

want to be seen in conversation with Cowboy Carter.

34:30

She and Beyonce are doing this very deliberate, respectful

34:32

dance. No, you're the greatest. No, you're the greatest.

34:35

I'm showing you respect. No, I'm showing you respect.

34:37

I can't see her coming to step on a

34:40

genre like that so quickly thereafter. Could she return

34:42

to this in a decade or so? I think

34:44

she could. We know one other thing I

34:46

want to say about the album, but I haven't had an opportunity

34:48

yet. So I'm seizing it now. Is that

34:50

a lot of the songs feel actually adult contemporary

34:52

to me, which is not

34:55

a crime, but it's interesting to me that in

34:57

an album that's so much about like. Says

35:00

a person who recently interviewed Billy Joel. Not

35:02

a crime. He was making that

35:04

music in his 20s. It's all good. That's his

35:06

thing. But for an

35:08

album that's where the text is so much

35:10

about youth being fleeting and something that you

35:12

need, time

35:14

is running out in a way. So on an

35:16

album on which one of her biggest lyrical concerns

35:18

is losing her youth, right? That he robbed it,

35:21

that one of these men robbed her of her

35:23

youth, which is obviously a concern for women who

35:25

are interested in having children. The

35:28

sound of it, it feels like she's pulling further

35:30

and further away from youth. And I wonder if

35:33

she will ever return to the sort of duergar

35:35

of the moment pop sound of reputation, which I

35:37

think she actually needs to do at some point,

35:39

or she's going to risk losing these younger listeners.

35:41

I know there are a bunch of songs on

35:43

here that felt like adult

35:46

contemporary or mid mainstream even

35:49

country. In many ways, I felt like

35:51

this album was aging her. Sonically. Sonically.

35:54

I feel like the sort of

35:56

like swift designer

35:58

like Anjanath. unit is kind of functioning

36:00

as a band right now. Like that's

36:03

who she's comfortable working with and if

36:05

she were like it's not like Madonna

36:07

grabbing a new producer for every new

36:09

album. She seems like she's comfortable with

36:11

these guys and it might

36:14

you know be to her. It's

36:17

so hard to speculate on another person's frame

36:19

of mind but like you

36:21

don't break the band of when you

36:23

feel good and comfortable with the game

36:26

and I think that country music is always going

36:28

to be a card that Kayla can play anytime

36:31

she wants to. And

36:34

I don't know that like pop bangers are

36:36

going to be something that she can always

36:38

do. I don't know if it's something she

36:41

can do now. Like there's no bangers on

36:43

this album. This seems like a very sonically

36:45

comfortable album to me. I have two extensions

36:48

and I you know I think she's just

36:50

working in a mode that feels good

36:52

and to her and natural

36:56

and I don't see her jumping out

36:58

of that until she feels like it. Until

37:00

like she feels like she's got to make

37:02

some music until she gets

37:04

restless. She's not restless right now. If

37:07

she weren't a stage the next eras

37:09

tour though it would be challenging to

37:11

find the stadium element from these 31

37:14

songs. The first time

37:16

I listened to this with my daughter her

37:18

first thought who was a big swiftie her

37:20

first thought was like oh maybe

37:22

she's like doing this so she can sit down

37:25

for a while. Which like

37:27

it's not impossible.

37:29

She doesn't have to sing so hard. She

37:31

doesn't have to like do the splits on

37:33

a car or

37:35

whatever. It seems like the

37:38

presentation of these songs and I thought the

37:40

same with the folklore songs but they don't

37:42

sound stadium sized. They're going to be stadium

37:44

sized because she's going to be the one

37:47

singing them. And honestly

37:49

a lot of these songs I think

37:51

are probably going to sound better live than they do on record. Okay

37:55

I have some questions coming in

37:57

about form. So

38:00

the album comes out at midnight and as we

38:02

mentioned earlier and everybody knows another

38:05

albums or the songs come two

38:08

hours later, 2 a.m. on release. TJ

38:11

Flood is asking essentially

38:14

what is the actual album here? Is it the 16 or

38:16

is it the 31? If

38:20

they're bonus tracks, should they be

38:22

reviewed as part of the official

38:24

thing? What function do they serve

38:27

in this particular rollout? And

38:29

TJ says maybe these questions don't matter, but

38:31

I think the 31 song drop has negatively

38:33

affected the perception of the project as a

38:35

whole. I wonder if the

38:37

album would have been received as stronger if she

38:39

had held the bonus tracks for a later date.

38:43

There's no question. That is 100% true. I'm

38:46

proclaiming that fact. Thank

38:48

you, loyal reader and listener. Even it's

38:51

such a dilution as part of

38:53

my issue. Everybody keeps talking about the muchness of

38:55

it, but it really does feel to me like

38:57

the main album is the first 16 songs. I

39:00

feel like every time there's a double

39:02

album, the sort of like stock responses

39:04

like, oh, if only they edited it

39:07

down to just one album's worth of

39:09

material. And usually

39:11

I don't have time for that. It's like,

39:13

I want to make a statement. What you

39:15

got is what you got. This really does

39:17

seem excessive to me. It seems like too

39:19

much music. And there's a lot of these

39:21

songs that I never need to hear. There's

39:23

a market for it. I'm sure it's going to like

39:25

really juice our numbers, which don't need to be juiced.

39:28

I think it really does hurt the album

39:31

artistically to have this many songs. And I

39:33

totally agree with Karen. It has affected the

39:35

perception in a negative way. Jonathan

39:38

Prather has two questions

39:40

that are sort of living at the intersection of

39:43

Taylor, the musician and Taylor, the human being. I'm

39:46

going to give both of them because I

39:48

think probably they can be answered in similar

39:50

ways. Two questions. One, Swift finally takes on

39:52

her fans in But Daddy, I Love Him.

39:56

Sure, it's riveting, but isn't it frustrating that she only decided

39:58

to take them out of the box? on when

40:00

they went after her. What

40:02

about all the years of doxxing

40:04

and cyberbullying others? Number

40:08

two, does Swift even

40:10

have a history of thoughtful

40:12

engagement with criticism? In

40:15

response, she will probably just spitefully double

40:17

down on what she's been doing. Could

40:20

her anger maybe instead bring her

40:22

to new and surprising places like

40:24

it did in Reputation? I

40:26

do want to point everybody to

40:29

the song Mean, which was inspired

40:31

by Bob Lefset's newsletter, which

40:34

is a very unfortunate thing to inquire.

40:36

I mean, it's a fine song, but

40:38

yeah, it's a good song. All

40:40

right, it's a good song. But yeah, Bob

40:42

Lefset, I shall it's Bob like a legend,

40:44

but also I don't know if you need

40:46

to write a song about a Lefset's letter.

40:48

So what do you all make of this

40:51

about Taylor taking on the fans, but having

40:53

been silent when the fans were when their

40:55

ire was pointed elsewhere? She's never gonna write

40:57

her Be Nice to the Fish Fork critics

40:59

song. That's never gonna happen. Nobody's ever gonna

41:01

write that song. Not one. Shout out to

41:03

Olivia Horne. Shout out to Olivia Horne did

41:06

a great job. Yeah, yeah.

41:08

And everyone used to ever review Taylor Swift

41:10

for Fish Fork, which is a daunting task.

41:12

It's a dumb like I was daunting a

41:14

little bit. I've reviewed a bunch of Taylor

41:16

records, and they pretty much all been positive.

41:18

And this time it was not so much.

41:20

I was a little terrified getting

41:23

that publish button. My experience with

41:25

that has been great. Her fans have been

41:27

like really engaged with what I wrote. And

41:29

a few people have gotten mad, but it's

41:32

been a whole lot of thoughtful responses. And

41:34

I think a lot of

41:36

her fans are not thrilled with this record

41:38

too, which probably sounds... It's...

41:42

I don't think that she'll ever engage with

41:44

music critics, other than

41:46

perhaps Bob Lefset. I'm never going to be

41:48

EU centric enough to think like I'll have

41:50

some bearing on whatever decision she makes next.

41:52

I think it's just going to be her

41:55

responding to whatever's in the air, and

41:57

maybe he could use her part. of

42:00

that. But she's not gonna... people

42:02

who are being like, oh, she should have done,

42:04

done, done, done, done. She's not gonna stop flying

42:06

in the private jet because we all wish she'd

42:08

stopped flying in the private jet, you know? I've

42:11

written and edited a lot of music reviews

42:14

in my coming up on 25 years in

42:16

this industry. And I've really never seen an

42:18

artist engaged with reviews the way she does.

42:20

And she has over the past few albums

42:23

where she is recirculating the positive ones on

42:25

her social media with hearts

42:27

and appreciation and links driving people to

42:29

read those reviews and to show those

42:31

perspectives. And to not read

42:33

other ones? I don't know

42:36

if she hasn't read some of her things

42:38

or she's read them and decided not to

42:40

promote them. Understandable that you might not want

42:42

to promote a review that offers some critique,

42:44

but it shows that she thinks that criticism

42:47

is a worthwhile pursuit. And the reason why

42:49

that irks me a little bit is because

42:51

she hasn't sought to protect anybody who has

42:53

written anything at mainstream publications

42:55

about her when the fans are going on

42:58

the attack. You know, it's very easy to

43:00

say, I don't need you to protect me. I can

43:03

take care of myself and a bad review

43:05

is not going to hurt my feelings. Please

43:07

don't send death threats to people because

43:09

she is telling fans that criticism is important.

43:11

She's showing that it holds value to her.

43:14

I find this to be an interesting paradox. It'd

43:17

be cool if she did that, but I

43:19

don't think it's her responsibility. She's got a lot

43:21

going on. But then I've never been doxed by

43:23

her fans. So, you know, I don't know. Perhaps

43:26

somebody else thinks of it. I don't think it's

43:28

her responsibility. I don't recommend it. The

43:31

nature of fandom now really is toxic.

43:33

And there is an element of the

43:35

whole pace thing. It irked me to

43:37

no end, but that pace published their

43:39

review with no byline, citing the fact

43:41

that a writer in 2019 who reviewed

43:43

Lover received death threats. I don't

43:45

recall that specific review, but I did scan the

43:47

review for this album where I saw quotes taken

43:50

from it and it seemed less like criticism and

43:52

more just like attacks. And

43:54

so if maybe that's the kind of quote unquote criticism you're

43:56

doing, then you have something to fear. But I think a

44:00

saying did take this album on in a

44:02

really serious way and engaged with it. The

44:04

New Yorker, you, Lindsay

44:06

and the Times, Olivia, Pitchfork, Chris

44:09

at the Washington Post, I think a lot

44:11

of people actually reckoned with this and I'm

44:14

hoping that there was less danger involved with

44:16

it now. I think this was the safest

44:18

album on which to have a dissenting opinion.

44:20

Right, but the fact that we even have to

44:22

speak in those tones is... Yeah,

44:25

it's crazy. Time for a

44:27

quick break to talk about McDonald's. Mornings are

44:29

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44:31

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44:33

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44:35

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44:40

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44:42

mix and match, you can't go wrong.

44:44

Price and participation may vary, cannot be

44:46

combined with any other offer or combo

44:48

meal. Single item at regular price. Okay,

44:55

speaking of the reviews, there was

44:57

this one, I think this

45:00

is a really long email and I feel like at

45:02

some point in this email this person says that this

45:05

Taylor album is their favorite Taylor

45:07

album, which in a

45:09

very thoughtful way, but maybe I'm

45:11

complaining to emails. Forgive me

45:14

if I ascribe this to you

45:16

incorrectly. Niamh

45:18

Killaher, Niamh, N-I-A-M-H.

45:21

But this email talks about a

45:23

number of things, it's very long, but

45:26

then it caveats, it says, excited to hear

45:28

your thoughts, sorry this was so long, but

45:30

I am defending length in terms

45:32

of the album itself. But it talks about

45:35

Ann Powers' NPR review. Frankly,

45:38

I saw some lovely writing in this email

45:40

about what this listener

45:42

hears Taylor doing on this record. He's

45:45

critiquing her own undying romanticism,

45:48

placing us in her delusional

45:50

shoes, revealing her embarrassing foolishness

45:52

with dark witticisms and depressing

45:55

vulnerability, and daring us to

45:57

judge her. Hacking

46:00

the consequences of her good girl complex

46:02

in an internal sense and

46:04

the external one put on her

46:07

and how that limit on her

46:09

humanity caused her temporary insanity in

46:11

risking it all on fixing her new

46:14

guy's savior and Staking

46:16

her claim to making her own

46:18

mistakes and rejecting public ownership even

46:21

from fans Thoughtful

46:24

I thought this was lovely There's

46:26

also extremely in line with like I was trying

46:28

to think of if I had written something like

46:30

what would what were the themes That were rich

46:32

up out of me This is very much in

46:34

keeping with what stuck with me

46:36

from the album What stuck with me were

46:38

these moments of Taylor sort of burning out

46:41

like let me cook I'm

46:43

a little bit law like I'm losing

46:45

it here. Let me get through it

46:47

I got a deal which is like

46:49

not exactly always how Taylor handles things

46:51

like this But this

46:53

was just an incredibly lovely way of Describing

46:56

what Taylor is doing on this record and and

46:59

frankly through a much more generous lens Then

47:01

I think a lot of people have on this

47:03

album the email continues to say talk

47:06

about like fatigue with Taylor supplanting

47:08

like actual thoughts on this album that

47:11

people are really responding to their means

47:13

fatigue with Taylor, but the writer continues

47:15

and says as someone not Experiencing Taylor

47:18

fatigue. I found that having a really

47:20

dense and complex record That's got a

47:22

rich overarching narrative and loads of song

47:25

connections to delve into rather radical

47:27

for her to release at this moment of

47:29

universality Oh, yeah, and it is produced

47:31

maybe my favorite album of hers It

47:33

is not an album for casual listening and

47:35

it appears much of her humor and self-legislation

47:38

has not been caught in some reviews Etc,

47:40

etc, etc. I wonder what you make

47:42

of this read seeing it

47:45

through that lens Which again, I don't

47:47

love this album, but I agree with

47:49

this lens. I Think

47:51

the lens and what you read out loud are more

47:53

pleasurable than listening to 31 song. Hey Part

47:57

of what's great about this album if I'm going to

47:59

find another show overlining is that it has

48:01

inspired so much thoughtfulness and excellent writing. This

48:03

is what we want. This is what critics

48:05

want. We want to actually sink our teeth

48:07

into something. So anyway, I guess we owe

48:09

her a brief thank you for giving us

48:12

so much to talk about, but I

48:14

still maintain it is too much to talk about. And we could

48:16

have talked about it in two more years and it would have

48:18

perhaps been even more powerful. Part of my

48:20

issue, which I think it's not a unique thing,

48:22

has been expressed by many people about the muchness

48:24

of it, is that you do have to

48:26

go away a little bit to make people miss you, which

48:28

is a concept that has been foreign to her

48:31

for the past few years. And

48:33

I know she felt like this overwhelming urge to

48:35

get these songs out. You can get them out

48:37

and not release them at the exact same time.

48:40

I think it would have been a way more powerful

48:42

project had she written these songs and then sat on

48:44

them and then came back to them, perhaps with the

48:46

wisdom of one or two more years. Post-eras

48:49

toward post this era and

48:52

given us a chance to reflect on this moment. But

48:54

instead it's like a live blog, which I'm also not

48:56

a big fan of. It didn't need

48:59

to be so contemporaneous. Yes,

49:01

although I will say to the extent

49:03

that I enjoy some of these songs, I like

49:06

that there is not, there's

49:08

no wisdom. I like

49:10

the flaws. I like the

49:12

sort of, I'm not totally steering this

49:15

car. I'm not totally in control of

49:17

this car. And for Taylor, like

49:19

the careful daughter of a

49:21

careless father, right, Taylor is all

49:24

about control, is all about steering

49:26

the narrative. And I

49:29

will say in spots on

49:31

this record, those fleeting moments of,

49:33

I'm not really sure how this

49:35

is gonna end. That

49:37

was probably the most riveting stuff. No, her

49:40

scene about like making bad

49:42

decisions, the same thing happened on the

49:44

last Olivia record where it wasn't just

49:46

like, you broke my heart. It's watch

49:48

me do some dumb stuff and maybe

49:50

it'll turn out okay. Maybe it won't.

49:52

Like that is compelling to me.

49:54

There's a lot of compelling narrative stuff on

49:56

the album and my biggest

49:59

critique of whole thing is that just

50:01

I don't hear this like roiling

50:03

passion and questioning and questing and

50:05

hoping for better things and like

50:07

all these like big feelings but

50:10

the horniness I don't hear it

50:12

in the music. Okay

50:14

three more questions. Shay

50:17

sent over a bunch of questions but I

50:19

think this third question on Shay's list is actually

50:22

kind of in keeping with where we're at right

50:24

now. Shay is asking

50:26

does the new music change how

50:28

you view Taylor as a person?

50:31

As a fan since the debut, I

50:34

personally love the album, actually don't mind the

50:36

length at all, however I was a bit

50:38

taken aback by her choosing to admit the

50:41

mistakes she made last year in her personal

50:43

life and how she sort of lost her

50:45

mind. Personally I take dating

50:47

Maddie Healy to the grave, plus

50:50

she called fans out for the first time.

50:52

It's a different approach for her so curious

50:54

if you guys perceive this as a risk

50:56

she was choosing to take or another business

50:58

move. Now I will say I agree

51:02

with the rhythm and structure of this question but

51:04

I don't know that Taylor is

51:07

even necessarily talking about them as

51:09

quote-unquote mistakes so much as maybe

51:11

missteps which are not exactly the

51:13

same thing because those missteps got

51:15

her the songs which clearly she

51:17

thought were good enough to put

51:19

on a record. But I

51:21

wonder what these songs to

51:24

Shay's point make you think about Taylor the

51:26

person. It's almost like in reverse rather than

51:28

the opposite direction. Taylor

51:30

the person is someone who I've never met in my

51:32

life. It doesn't change my opinion

51:34

of Taylor the person at all because I like I

51:37

don't know her. I've never met her. The

51:39

only time I've ever been in the same room was her

51:41

as a stadium. These songs do not

51:43

change that feeling at all. I think where

51:47

fandom gets it twisted is that a

51:50

whole lot of people think that Taylor's with different best friend

51:52

and she's not. Maybe this

51:54

will change some of those people's opinion that

51:56

has never been how I approached her music.

51:59

I feel like like affection for her

52:01

character on graphics, but I don't know if

52:03

I get along with her. I

52:05

don't know if she'd get along with me. That's actually the real thing.

52:08

Would she get along with you? That's really the

52:10

question. No, she'd be like, you're too tall. I'm

52:13

the tall person. You need to leave her alone. Yeah,

52:15

he says, not room for both. Not room for too

52:17

tall. It makes

52:19

me more excited that this is

52:21

a person who has had a

52:24

range of experience, assuming these are

52:26

truthful songs, has had a

52:28

range of experience. That is seemingly

52:30

different from the prior range of

52:32

experiences and is willing to testify

52:34

to that range of experience. That

52:37

makes me more sympathetic to

52:39

her as a person. I agree

52:41

with you, but I will

52:43

turn the corner a little bit and say,

52:45

you can't continually keep sharing things about yourself

52:48

and then being angry when people feel too

52:50

close to you or like they

52:52

have all this knowledge and ownership of your life. These

52:54

are decisions. You can be very famous and

52:57

people don't have to know where you are 24 hours a day. Beyonce

53:00

drops these photos on Instagram. I have no idea where the

53:02

hell she is at any time. She can be in New

53:04

York, she can be on the moon. But

53:07

there is something with Taylor where there's like a

53:09

constant knowledge of where

53:11

she is. Is she gonna be at

53:13

the football game? Is she gonna be here? Is she on vacation

53:15

with him? And obviously a lot of

53:17

that is beyond her control. There's paparazzi, but there

53:19

is a level of famous person in the world

53:22

who is less paparazzi.

53:24

There are ways to be less known.

53:27

And I don't think that, I think if she's

53:29

reached a turning point in her life where she's a

53:31

little bit curdled on all the fame and the attention,

53:34

that there are ways for her to turn that switch off. But

53:37

then an album like this only amplifies it. And

53:40

it makes me question her real intention with it. For

53:43

those wondering where Karen is at all times, Karen

53:45

is on her couch with Richard the Cat. Don't

53:48

send them to my house, John. I

53:50

didn't say where your house was. I just said you're

53:52

with the cat. I just said you're with the cat.

53:54

Okay, next to last question. Karen, I actually think this

53:57

might be more of a Tom B question. It's

53:59

definitely. the most left field question that we

54:01

got. This is from Ash Bex

54:04

and Ash says, The Taylor Swift

54:06

album is 2 hours, 2 minutes,

54:09

and 21 seconds long. Cindy

54:12

Lee's Diamond Jubilee album is

54:14

2 hours, 2 minutes, and

54:16

22 seconds. WTF.

54:21

Cindy Lee released exclusively via Geocities

54:23

and YouTube, where Taylor's album seems

54:25

to be gaining the Spotify charts.

54:27

Cindy Lee is arguably the most

54:29

critically appraised album of the year

54:31

so far. Just for jokes,

54:34

I went to the Metacritic rankings for

54:36

2024 albums, and like

54:38

Cindy Lee's Super High and like Taylor's like

54:40

number 30, like under like

54:42

Ariana Grande or something like that. I was

54:45

like lol. To me, these two albums

54:47

are at opposite poles of modern pop

54:49

music, and it's wild that they were released

54:51

so close together in almost the same

54:53

exact album length. Are these albums in

54:55

conversation, either intentionally or not, is

54:57

a fascinating parallel here, especially

54:59

with regards to criticism, fandom,

55:01

and economics? First

55:05

of all, who's listened to the Cindy Lee album? I

55:07

have, and I bought a ticket to the show. Oh,

55:09

okay, so we've all listened to the Cindy Lee

55:11

album. Okay, what do you make of this? Is

55:13

there anything to be gleaned from the commonalities here?

55:16

When I had to sit and review

55:18

the Taylor record, the thing that it

55:21

was most in conversation with or in

55:23

conflict with was Drake saying,

55:25

or no, Rick Ross saying that

55:27

Drake wears diapers with no underwear.

55:30

I was like, when I heard somebody

55:32

say that, which is so funny and so

55:34

specific, then is Taylor Swift's brains of celebrity

55:36

gossip, am I going to be able to

55:38

vibe with that? Am I going to be

55:41

able to hit on the slope? Rick

55:43

Ross saying that has not left my head

55:45

for two weeks, and that's, it's

55:47

too much. Like, that's too much to

55:50

overcome. I'm not really thinking about

55:52

Cindy Lee. That's what I'm thinking about. And that's

55:54

the mental static in my head that Taylor has

55:56

to push through. I think it's a

55:58

question of people are so desperate. to think about

56:00

literally the exact opposite of

56:03

Taylor right now because she is so

56:05

dominant. It is such pop music and

56:07

the Cindy Lee is not. It's really

56:09

interesting. Jim Cantiello returning for

56:11

a late part of the podcast who asked a question

56:14

earlier. He's the one who told me about Cindy Lee.

56:16

And he was actually, he said he was like a

56:18

tinge disappointed by the pitchfork review that it existed because

56:20

it was going to bring so many people to it

56:23

that he wanted to tell people word of mouth style

56:25

about it. Jim, I hope, forgive me if I am

56:27

taking an Instagram conversation with you. I have a

56:29

contact with you. Or as

56:31

was once said about me on the ILM

56:34

board many years ago, hey,

56:36

Cara Monica, you f*** the hype

56:38

cycle. It's true. I think people want

56:40

to, it's the

56:42

joy of discovering something that perhaps everybody

56:44

wasn't talking about for the past 24

56:47

months. I think there's a lot of, as we were

56:49

just talking about, Taylor gave us a lot to talk

56:51

about here and we're enjoying talking about it. But people

56:53

miss the moment where a

56:55

place like pitchfork could tell you about an artist and

56:57

all of a sudden it became exciting and everybody was

57:00

talking about it. So I think that's part of what's

57:02

going on here. Also, the music is good. It's

57:04

a contrast between an album that you are

57:06

being told is great from a pie versus

57:09

for an album you're being told is great

57:11

from below. That's one thing. Also, these are

57:13

two artists who do not do press. They

57:16

are not talking for themselves. They

57:18

are letting the music talk. Beyond

57:20

that, I'm not sure I see much consonants,

57:23

but I would love if there is a

57:25

person out there who is going to do

57:27

a double review of Taylor

57:29

Swift and Cindy Lee. I will

57:31

read the hell out of that double review. Interesting. I

57:34

would love to read it if any critics up to

57:36

the task. Last question is coming

57:39

from Ian Jane. Ian's

57:41

got a conundrum. And

57:43

I think it's the conundrum that we all have. And

57:45

I think it's something that we've all been thinking about.

57:48

I suppose

57:51

my question or really it's just a

57:53

conundrum that popular culture will continue litigating

57:55

and re litigating is this. What

57:59

exactly do we want from? Taylor, if not to

58:01

write about her life and her experiences

58:03

in ways that she finds artistically compelling.

58:05

She's traversed or drawn from

58:08

numerous genres, country, pop, indie,

58:10

R&B, and she continues

58:12

to write about universal feelings through the

58:14

specificity of her own experiences. And

58:16

so I don't really understand the prescriptivism

58:19

that seems to be coming from certain

58:21

critical sectors. Don't write about your immense

58:23

fame and privilege. Don't write pop songs.

58:26

Don't reflect on doomed romances. Don't use

58:28

high school imagery. Don't reopen bathrooms, etc.

58:31

Thank you. I want her to make things. I

58:34

actually had the answer to these questions. You do. And it

58:37

was in your review. Where

58:39

I'm going to punch a hole in the wall when

58:41

I hear it. She's got so many of those. For

58:45

a while it seemed like she could do it

58:47

in her sleep. That's what I want. And maybe

58:49

that's prescriptivist. I don't know. She

58:51

can keep writing about high school all

58:53

she wants. I want her to keep

58:55

writing about her strange life perspective. She's

58:57

a great, specific songwriter. A lot of

58:59

people are like, get her away from

59:01

Jackie Antonoff. It's like they make getaway

59:03

cards. That's so bang so hard. And

59:06

they're not doing that right now. Probably

59:09

an intentional choice to not do it, but she could

59:11

make some more bangers. I would like that. Total

59:14

sidebar. Who's the producer of those bangers? If

59:16

it's not Max Martin, who's the producer? I

59:19

think there's plenty of people out there. We

59:21

can't have a three producer system. She's

59:23

made bangers with Desner. I

59:27

don't need her to go to AG Cook or

59:29

whatever. She can keep doing

59:31

what she's doing. It's not doing it

59:33

right now. I really

59:35

do like Taylor Swift. And I think she's exceptionally

59:37

gifted, which is why I'm so frustrated. That's the

59:40

same thing when people are like, oh, you're a

59:42

Gaga hater. I'm not a Gaga hater. I'm a

59:44

Gaga adorer. And that's why I'm irritated. Because

59:47

when you've proven. I've

59:49

done this on other podcasts. But when you've proven

59:51

that you can make songs on a bad romance

59:54

level and all of Fame

59:56

Monster and most of Born This Way, except

59:58

the title track and Judas. You've proven that

1:00:00

you can make tracks on that level and then

1:00:02

you sort of like either willingly or unwillingly are

1:00:04

not achieving at that level. False Book

1:00:06

bothers me and that is what is bothering me

1:00:09

about the past few Taylor cycles. Although I think

1:00:11

Antihero was the best thing I'd heard from her

1:00:13

in so many years. I like Karma, I know you don't.

1:00:15

I just, my ear was dying for one of those

1:00:17

things on this album. Literally dying and that's why when

1:00:19

I got to Florida I got so excited because I

1:00:22

was like, okay, we're getting closer to it. I

1:00:24

don't think she's under any obligation to write

1:00:27

about anything or in any style other than

1:00:29

of course Banger. But would it be nice

1:00:31

to hear her engaging with the world in

1:00:33

a different way? Yes. I'm

1:00:35

not prescribing that for her, but I think it would be interesting.

1:00:37

Lindsay had written a bit about Midnight saying

1:00:40

that she really liked the way on that record. Taylor

1:00:43

had tweaked her usual concept of

1:00:45

romance in a more mature

1:00:47

direction that she was reflecting on perhaps more

1:00:49

youthful relationships through the lens of a woman

1:00:51

in her 30s. And it

1:00:54

did feel like this album was a step back

1:00:56

from that more towards this sort of fairy tale

1:00:58

idea, which I mentioned this in a round table

1:01:00

the other day, where if something doesn't end in

1:01:02

perfect heterosexual romantic love, then it's not worth having.

1:01:04

I'm not saying that she doesn't deserve love and

1:01:06

happiness and that kind of ending, but I would

1:01:08

like to see her break out of the box

1:01:10

of at least making that the text or subtext

1:01:12

of so much of the songwriting. They

1:01:15

reach for something else. That would

1:01:17

be my request. I know she's not

1:01:19

listening. Oh, they're listening. Both

1:01:21

great answers. I have two versions of this

1:01:23

answer. One is that the platonic ideal of

1:01:26

criticism is I don't want anything from Taylor

1:01:28

Swift. I'm just going to receive Taylor Swift

1:01:30

as Taylor Swift presents to the world. And

1:01:33

then I maybe will enjoy that or I won't

1:01:35

enjoy it. And then I'll say if I enjoy

1:01:37

it or I'll say if I don't enjoy it. I

1:01:39

try not to be prescriptive in any

1:01:41

way about artists. However, to the point

1:01:44

that both of you have just made,

1:01:46

which is that this is someone who

1:01:48

we have been listening to, engaging with,

1:01:50

thinking about, absorbing, thinking hard about

1:01:52

for a decade and a half. And

1:01:55

I think what comes with that is a bit

1:01:57

of an understanding of what this person's natural 10

1:02:00

towards. And Karen,

1:02:03

I think your answer is like, she

1:02:05

has this natural tendency that I like to see her grow

1:02:07

out of. And Tom, you're saying she has a talent to

1:02:09

do one kind of thing I'd like to see her do

1:02:11

more of. I feel like,

1:02:14

if anything, if there is

1:02:16

anything prescriptive, which I, again, I don't necessarily

1:02:18

subscribe to, but if there is, I want

1:02:22

to go back to the

1:02:24

thing that made Taylor very

1:02:27

special and unique in the earliest

1:02:29

years, which is a particular vocal

1:02:31

approach that I

1:02:33

mentioned this earlier in the show. It's

1:02:36

a narrow voice, but there's a lot of

1:02:38

emotion. She figures out how to get a

1:02:40

lot of emotion out of a relatively narrow

1:02:42

range. Songwriting, I think Taylor

1:02:44

will always write good songs. These

1:02:46

may not be my favorite Taylor

1:02:48

songs, but I don't think she's lost

1:02:50

the plot. Like I'm sure. So

1:02:53

definitely. Yeah, I'm sure there'll be other great

1:02:55

Taylor Swift songs. But

1:02:57

frankly, maybe

1:02:59

we're part of the problems. We're just like

1:03:02

genre and indie and make

1:03:04

a Joni Mitchell album, make an R&B

1:03:06

album, but don't make an R&B album.

1:03:08

Just strip it all down. Get rid of

1:03:10

all of it. Pure

1:03:13

voice, guitar, VH1

1:03:17

storytellers, just strip

1:03:19

it all down. Keep it simple.

1:03:21

Stupid. If

1:03:24

there's anything prescriptive, that's my only

1:03:26

prescription. Our answers were all

1:03:28

really very us. I agree. I

1:03:31

agree. They were very us, but also

1:03:33

three very, really informed answers from three

1:03:35

people with very different perspectives. Karen,

1:03:37

what a blessing. Tom B,

1:03:40

what a blessing. That's our

1:03:42

show. Listen to every Popcast

1:03:44

ever at nytimes.com/Popcast. Like and

1:03:46

subscribe at youtube.com/Popcast or me

1:03:48

and Joe are doing Deluxe.

1:03:50

Subscribe to Popcast. Anyway, get

1:03:52

your audio or audio visual

1:03:54

content that is Spotify, Apple,

1:03:56

YouTube, etc, etc. Email us

1:03:59

Popcast at nytimes.com. Get in the

1:04:01

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1:04:03

slash popcast discord our producer as

1:04:05

always is Pedro Rosado From head

1:04:08

stepper media. We will be back in

1:04:11

two weeks actually with audio only

1:04:13

We will be back two weeks

1:04:15

with regular popcast with another guest

1:04:17

host and Tom in honor of

1:04:19

your request Let's listen to a

1:04:21

banger. This is getaway color. Oh

1:04:30

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1:04:47

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