0:00

This year, a very important public figure

0:02

turns Haiti. He sent us his wish

0:04

for his birthday. My wish is for

0:07

everyone to practice wildfire safety, because only

0:09

you can prevent wildfires. That sounds easy

0:11

enough, but you don't know who it

0:14

is. Nah, of course you do. It's

0:16

Smokey Bear. Let's all make sure Smokey's

0:18

wish comes true by learning his wildfire

0:21

prevention tips at smokybear.com. Because Smokey Bear

0:23

lives within us all. Brought to you

0:25

by the USDA Forest Service, your state

0:28

forester in the Ad Council. Hello,

0:34

this is Ben Cesario. I'm a reporter at

0:36

the New York Times, and I am the

0:38

guest host this week for

0:40

Popcast. We

0:55

were just listening to Kerosene by Big Black, the

0:58

band featuring Steve Albini, the

1:01

legendary musician, producer,

1:04

in quote, Mark's iconoclast

1:06

gadfly of rock music,

1:09

who recently died at the untimely age of

1:11

61. And I am

1:14

joined here by two esteemed

1:16

guests to talk about his legacy.

1:19

First, I'm joined by Jeremy Gordon. He's

1:21

a senior editor at the Atlantic, and

1:24

written a lot of great pieces for the Times. And

1:26

Jeremy wrote a major feature, an interview with

1:29

Albini last year in The Guardian, which we're

1:31

going to get to. Jeremy, thank you for

1:34

being on the show. Thanks for having me.

1:36

And next we have Joe Gross, freelance

1:38

writer, long time culture writer at

1:41

the Austin American Statesman, author

1:43

of the 33 and a third book on Fugazi

1:45

in on the Killtaker. And

1:47

Joe, I'm going to embarrass you. This is

1:49

like personal for me since we met as

1:52

college students more than 30 years ago. And

1:54

right from the get go, you

1:56

were like Mr. Steve Albini. And

1:58

I'm sure that you taught me. a great

2:00

deal of what we're going to talk about today. So

2:02

Joe, thank you for being here for journalistic

2:04

and personal reasons. Thank you, man. This

2:07

was a tough one all around

2:09

the untimely death of Steve Albini, somebody

2:12

who we've seen it talked

2:14

about on social media in the last day

2:16

or so, just a larger than

2:18

life presence who meant so

2:20

much to so many different

2:22

people. I want to wait on getting

2:24

to his music. We will get to that in a

2:26

minute, but I wanted to know if maybe we could

2:28

start by talking about character,

2:32

like his character, the character

2:34

he embodied in the

2:36

music world, which seems to be one of

2:38

the things that people are responding to. He

2:41

was the troll who had this

2:43

like zealous moral

2:45

compass, and eventually he

2:48

apologized for his trolling. He took

2:50

accountability. And I think that

2:53

really resonated with people. And a lot of

2:55

what you're hearing and people's responses are just

2:57

like moral side of what he was all

2:59

about, both in how he made music and

3:01

how he comported himself. Jeremy,

3:03

this was a big subject of your

3:06

interview with him in The Guardian last

3:08

year. Can you talk about

3:10

that side of him and maybe about how

3:12

that piece came about? My

3:14

editor at The Guardian had reached out to

3:16

me because he had wanted to assign a

3:18

profile on Steve for a very long time.

3:20

He said it like almost as soon as

3:22

he joined the job a decade ago, and

3:24

now he had the power to. And he

3:27

was mostly inspired by

3:29

I think this recent viral semi

3:31

viral Twitter thread at the time,

3:33

which Steve had posted, opening up

3:35

to some of his prior

3:37

offensive statements. I think it had come about

3:40

because someone had tried to

3:42

call him out, as they say,

3:44

and he just responded to it very directly

3:46

and said something along the lines of, you

3:48

know, I'm not hiding for anything. I've apologized

3:51

for this again. And he was very transparent

3:53

about it and wasn't doubling down by saying, well,

3:55

it was back in the day or I was

3:58

just talking on the side of my mouth. He

4:00

really seemed earnest and

4:03

apologetic for it. And I

4:05

think there's just something about the tone of the way he

4:07

was talking about this. I mean, he was an incredibly

4:10

talented writer as well. He was

4:12

very articulate. He was very good at

4:14

sounding out his beliefs and making

4:17

it seem authentic rather than just

4:19

something that somebody was saying because the moment came

4:22

for him. So I was

4:24

assigned to do the piece with that in

4:26

mind as like the surface framing, but also

4:28

just given his stature and independent music and

4:30

everything he'd done. I mean, he'd really done

4:32

so, so much in his life

4:34

that I think it was hard to find a

4:37

particular framing that felt like

4:39

white owl of all things. But that

4:41

seemed to be a current that had

4:43

really resonated with people just

4:45

because I think as we know, and

4:47

I'm sure many other people know, in

4:50

music or in the arts, you will

4:53

meet a lot of these cutting, cranky

4:55

guys whose language certainly can lapse into

4:57

offensiveness. I mean, I knew a thousand

4:59

guys like that when I was growing

5:01

up. They were like a mainstay of

5:03

the quote unquote punk alternative spaces. And

5:06

the idea here was a guy who was the guy in

5:08

that regard who had said all these things over the years.

5:11

And not only was he... What are some of the things

5:13

that he said? I mean, you can on those

5:15

softer scale, we're just merely provocative

5:17

things like talking about. I

5:20

don't even know what I can quote a

5:22

lot on this podcast, but he said something

5:24

about how his band was like a way

5:26

to get the blood boiling without having to

5:28

kill animals or something.

5:32

Stuff that's just like, okay, a little extreme. And then, but

5:34

just provocative, as they say. And

5:36

then there were more grosser things where he

5:38

was definitely could be very

5:40

denigrating to women, to female artists

5:42

who's work he didn't like, which seemed to

5:45

be a lot of people. He

5:47

could use offensive epithets, homo-voble

5:49

ones or racial ones. And

5:51

at the time he was done

5:53

under the guise of a move. I

5:55

think he would claim to be like a

5:58

free speech absolutist. But the word isn't as

6:00

important as your intent behind it. I'm using

6:02

it in a sort of satirical, ironic manner.

6:04

I'm shocking you, but I'm not being offensive

6:06

behind it. I'm just trying to make a

6:08

point about language. Is it worse for me

6:10

to say a word than it is, but

6:12

not actually be a bigot, versus someone who

6:14

is offended by a word, but basically hates

6:17

minorities? And I think

6:19

you'll see that logic from certainly a lot of

6:21

people. But as time went on, talk about this

6:23

with me and in public, but just seeing

6:26

the number of people who really just

6:28

reveled in being offensive for its own

6:30

sake combined with, I think, the sort

6:33

of shifting political situation really made him

6:35

rethink things. I mean, he contextualized

6:38

this for me, but as I'm sure you

6:41

two also remember, he

6:44

came of age in the 80s, more or less,

6:46

or he came of adulthood in the 80s when

6:48

Reagan was president, and there were all these conversations

6:51

about PC culture and language,

6:53

and to him, the right-wing ascendancy

6:55

was not something to really fear,

6:58

although I'm sure a lot of people would

7:00

have disagreed with him at the time, but

7:02

as he put it himself, as a sort

7:04

of straight white man who was not at

7:06

direct risk, he thought, these are obviously comical

7:08

figures who I'm able to make fun of.

7:10

They're the real enemy, and so it

7:12

doesn't matter. Everyone

7:15

should be able to see that I'm not really on

7:17

their side if I'm using offensive language, because obviously, I'm

7:20

mocking them. And then over the last 30

7:22

years, as the US politics

7:24

have unfolded, I think he felt very

7:26

differently about that. And

7:28

he felt very strongly about it. It was more important

7:31

to signal himself as being on the side of the

7:33

people who he really cared about, and

7:35

saw it were worth being on the side of versus

7:37

trying to play with irony or

7:39

humor, or it claimed to be

7:41

exceptional that he had some secretly more

7:43

nuanced points to be made once he

7:45

really got past the words. Joe,

7:48

wondering what you think about all of that. I

7:50

mean, I feel like on the one hand, when

7:53

he was especially insulting other

7:55

musicians, it felt like he

7:58

really meant it. this was

8:00

he was judging others very harshly

8:02

for their music and their choices

8:05

as musicians. But then

8:07

there was also the more incendiary using

8:10

racial epithets and stuff which was

8:13

it just simply joking around and for the sake

8:15

of irony or what do you think about that

8:17

side of him? I mean I

8:20

think his view

8:22

of it and I this

8:24

might have been in Jeremy's piece and

8:26

I apologize if I'm misremembering that

8:29

he is he talked about a couple of times

8:31

he talked about how it

8:34

did not occur to him as

8:36

a middle class white guy in

8:38

the 80s that these

8:41

problems. The

8:43

phrasing was something along the lines of I thought

8:46

these problems had been solved and

8:48

we'd moved on as a culture. A,

8:51

that was clearly not true and

8:53

B, he was pretty

8:55

open about the idea that it was

8:57

his wife

8:59

who turned him around and

9:02

was essentially like look

9:04

you are not

9:07

you are misinterpreting all of these things and

9:10

here is why you are wrong and

9:13

sound kind of silly saying this stuff.

9:16

The evolution thing is absolutely

9:18

fascinating. I think at

9:21

the very beginning of his career when we're

9:23

talking about stuff in forced

9:26

exposure and places like that and

9:29

zine writing where he really cut

9:32

loose and established this very

9:34

powerful critical

9:37

persona. I

9:39

think we forget how small

9:41

the audience was for

9:43

that sort of thing. I

9:45

don't think it occurred to the guy that this

9:48

was going to be read by more than the

9:51

audience that would know how to interpret

9:54

it and this is

9:57

obviously mostly a public. Nirvana

10:01

effect, once that genie was

10:03

sort of out of the bottle and regular

10:05

people started getting into what

10:07

was once an underground thing,

10:10

public perception of that

10:13

guy changed a little bit. Suddenly a

10:15

lot of people were like, who was

10:17

this jerk? Especially after the time,

10:20

I think it was a Time magazine

10:22

piece when he was

10:26

working on in utero and it

10:28

hadn't come out yet. He was

10:31

working on the Nirvana record in utero

10:33

and there was a big piece in

10:35

a magazine about how

10:37

the label had, DGC

10:42

Records, Nirvana's label, had bullied them

10:45

into softening the mix of

10:47

their record. Which

10:51

is a collection of words that makes sense

10:53

to all of us, but

10:56

to somebody reading a news magazine in 1993 or, yeah,

10:58

it would have been 1992 or 1993, it was just

11:00

like, who is this skinny weirdo who

11:09

is complaining

11:11

about the guys who

11:15

had a hit with Smells Like Teen Spirit.

11:18

I think it's funny

11:21

to contemplate how

11:23

profoundly the pop music

11:26

culture in general, but

11:29

rock music culture in particular

11:32

and underground rock music culture in

11:34

particular has changed in

11:36

the 40 years since he

11:39

started making music and

11:41

saying goofy things in public.

11:44

That's also part of his strength though too, is just

11:47

that like the voice crying in the wilderness. I think

11:49

that there must have been a lot

11:51

of people who had never heard of him

11:53

before, never encountered him,

11:56

but hearing him in the context

11:58

of talking about the Nirvana, Nirvana record

12:00

and the conformist

12:03

pressures of the music industry,

12:06

that there was somebody calling it out in

12:08

very harsh terms. And I

12:10

think that was one of his great gifts to

12:12

the world, was calling

12:14

BS on the

12:16

system. And he did that many

12:19

times in many ways.

12:22

When he died, I felt like the

12:24

only other music

12:27

person that I felt like this really

12:30

compared to was Lou Reed,

12:32

in the sense that he

12:35

also died at a relatively

12:37

young age. And

12:39

there was a tremendous outpouring for him. And

12:42

I think part of it was people saying,

12:44

like, I loved how much of a jerk

12:46

he was. Like, there was honesty about that.

12:49

I mean, he was a famous artist, of course,

12:51

but that he was a person

12:53

who, in interviews and in his public

12:56

persona, there was something unfiltered. And

12:58

it came across as a rebelliousness. It came

13:00

across as a form of

13:02

integrity, just say what you want to say,

13:05

even if you're being a jerk about it.

13:08

Jeremy, did he still

13:10

have any of that vibe in 2023?

13:15

You know, when we talked, I found

13:17

him to be incredibly friendly

13:19

and nice. I distinctly got a

13:22

vibe from him that he was

13:24

just very comfortable as himself. You

13:26

know, he wasn't turning on a

13:28

switch to be a little chatty just

13:31

because we were doing an interview. He

13:33

seemed like he does. He did in

13:35

every single interview I'd ever

13:37

watched or read or in any sort

13:39

of story that was ever relayed to

13:41

me by someone who knew him. He

13:43

was just very comfortably himself, so to

13:45

speak. And I think one of the,

13:48

to speak to the point you just made,

13:50

another thing about him that people really

13:52

celebrated and appreciated is that Steve was

13:54

very accessible as a person. His email

13:57

was public, his phone number was public.

13:59

He recorded. bands regularly. His rates

14:01

were pretty affordable. I saw so

14:03

many stories floating around of just

14:07

random musicians who were saying, I

14:09

recorded once with him and he spent the

14:11

whole day explaining to me how like these,

14:14

just how to do this work that he

14:16

was doing. He really sketched out his methodology.

14:18

Or I saw one testimony of someone saying

14:21

they had just emailed him, asked you if

14:23

they could pick his brain. And Steve just

14:25

invited him to come by his studio, audio

14:28

and spent the whole day demonstrating to him

14:30

or this person how

14:32

to just showing them

14:34

the studio. And that's pretty unbelievable

14:36

to consider the breadth of his

14:38

resume and all of the work he had

14:41

done. The idea that he felt very

14:43

open, almost compelled to share what he

14:45

knew with other people, not

14:47

elevate himself over anyone else. So there was no

14:49

sense of ego of, oh, I'm the guy who

14:51

worked with Nirvana or I was in this band

14:53

in the 80s. He was very focused on the

14:55

present and the now, which I

14:58

think connects to everything. His so-called evolution is

15:00

that he did not ever want to rest

15:02

on it as laurels of what he had

15:04

accomplished or how people saw him. He saw

15:06

his work is really being every day and

15:09

in the moment. You've got

15:11

this impression and it's a little bit like

15:13

Lou Reed, but

15:15

it's also a little bit

15:17

like your weird uncle died.

15:20

That was the vibe that I was seeing

15:22

in all these Facebook posts

15:24

and Twitter posts and Blue Sky and

15:27

stuff like that, where

15:29

people were taking this man's

15:31

passing extremely personally. Like

15:33

people who were not particularly performative

15:36

about celebrity deaths,

15:38

which is, I mean, even saying

15:41

that is sounds weird applied

15:43

to this guy. And maybe

15:46

it's just that my feeds are

15:48

full of musicians and music dorks,

15:50

but I

15:53

think it was Ann Powers who said, no, I'm

15:55

sorry. It was John Darniel who

15:57

said this was a generational thing. And

16:00

I think that's a really good

16:03

way to put it, that this

16:05

was the first guy of

16:08

that coterie of

16:11

musicians and tastemakers

16:15

and people who were involved in

16:17

underground rock in the 80s and

16:20

transformed it into what it was in the 90s that

16:22

has died. And

16:28

that goes right to the heart

16:30

of the idea of being accessible, that

16:32

you could just call this dude or

16:35

email him and ask him something. And

16:38

he considered that perfectly normal

16:40

human behavior because

16:42

he was a perfectly normal

16:45

human guy who

16:47

happened to make

16:49

some of the most influential

16:52

on a very specific group of

16:54

people, music of his

16:56

scene. So it's

16:59

this balance of this guy

17:01

worked miracles and I have

17:03

had lunch with him that

17:06

really came together in this sort of

17:08

outpouring of grief because most of the,

17:10

it was very much

17:13

a, I remember the first time I heard

17:15

Big Black, I was 15 years old and it

17:17

was, I was not immune to

17:20

that sort of thing. I remember exactly

17:22

where I was and what I was

17:24

doing the first time I heard Big

17:26

Black. It was a before and

17:28

after moment. And

17:31

then you sort of learn more about this guy

17:33

and you're like, man, he's really angry about a

17:35

lot of stuff. And that's cool,

17:37

right? Well, it's cool and it's rhetorically

17:40

forceful. I mean, that's the thing

17:42

about, that's irritating about writing

17:46

about Al Bini is that

17:49

nine times out of 10, he's

17:51

a better writer than you, which is

17:53

annoying if you're writing about music,

17:56

because most of the time musicians are like

17:58

pretty good, but the power of music of

18:00

his prose was really something

18:02

else. And the fact

18:04

that he was very obviously light

18:07

years funnier than most

18:10

of his peers went

18:12

a long way, I think, to

18:14

establishing his cult. I

18:16

think it's good to think of him

18:18

as a kind of generational icon of

18:20

this person who in some

18:22

ways embodied a lot of

18:25

Gen X

18:27

experiences and the, I don't

18:31

know, the sense of ambivalence about

18:33

it, that he was like,

18:35

Mr. Underground, Post-Punk, Screw the

18:38

System, I hate the

18:40

major labels. But he did the Nirvana

18:42

record at the peak of

18:44

their fame. He did the

18:47

Bush album. He did dip his

18:49

toe into that. He took their

18:51

money. And

18:53

now what he's been talking about recently

18:56

and what he talks about with you,

18:58

Jeremy, is trying to reconcile the excesses

19:00

of youth and to hold

19:02

himself accountable. And this

19:05

feeling of guilt,

19:08

in a way, of we're grownups now.

19:10

We did a lot of crazy stuff

19:13

when we were in bands 30 years

19:15

ago. What does it mean now? I

19:17

mean, to me, that rang very true

19:20

about just what people

19:22

go through at this stage of their lives.

19:25

Yeah, and there's something that he said

19:27

to me, which I put in the

19:29

piece. But he very much, very clearly

19:31

wanted to draw the line and

19:33

say, I

19:36

didn't say these things because the culture was

19:38

different. He says the culture was different, but

19:41

I was wrong then. He acknowledged

19:44

that the people who were

19:46

upset by what he said at the time were

19:48

right to be upset. It wasn't that they didn't,

19:50

couldn't take a choke or didn't necessarily get what

19:53

he was talking about. I think he very

19:55

much looked at all that and said, it

19:57

was inexcusable, and I shouldn't have done it.

20:00

and being honest about that is the

20:02

only way that I could talk about this ethically.

20:04

He was very, he was very concerned with ethics

20:07

and I think I got the sense of someone

20:09

who really poured over a lot

20:11

of his behavior and wanted to feel right

20:13

about things. They're not even necessarily about

20:15

feeling right, but doing the decent thing,

20:17

especially in his particular industry

20:20

where you're surrounded by people who are not

20:23

doing the decent thing. And

20:25

it's interesting that the ethics, the

20:28

morals was there at

20:30

the beginning. He had very bright

20:33

line ideas about the

20:35

right and wrong thing to do about music,

20:37

but he would also say the most outrageous,

20:39

reckless things for shock

20:42

value. And I think

20:44

he eventually turned that back

20:46

on himself and thought, can

20:49

I apply the same morality that I have done

20:51

to this seven-inch EP from 1986 to how

20:54

I talk about race in America? The

20:57

open politicization of

21:00

that guy, not that

21:02

he wasn't, I mean, it's funny, you go back and

21:04

you look at the liner notes for the

21:07

live record that Big Black did

21:09

that came out in like 1992. And

21:13

the liner notes say something like, and

21:16

this was in 1992, this

21:18

was not recently, and

21:21

the liner notes say something along the

21:23

lines of look, we're all lefties like

21:25

you guys or something like that. And

21:29

you take a look at that and you're like, oh,

21:33

this is, I mean, I get

21:36

that it didn't occur to me that

21:38

other people didn't, that

21:40

this was all him writing

21:43

offensive stuff or saying stuff

21:45

that was rude

21:48

or obnoxious was at

21:52

least in part a shtick. Like this guy

21:54

probably voted Democratic his entire life. This was

21:56

not a crazy right-wing

22:01

lunatic or anything like that. Then

22:03

seeing him evolve into

22:05

this guy that talked about politics

22:07

publicly with the same brutal

22:12

directness and this

22:15

tightness and directness of

22:17

argument that he would

22:19

apply to thinking about how the music industry

22:22

worked was really amazing.

22:24

I think going back to the

22:26

ethics thing, I

22:30

talked a little bit about this in the book, that

22:33

there's this key point in the

22:36

American underground around 1989,

22:38

1990, 1991

22:42

where there is enough attention

22:45

on us that we can

22:47

form an alternative

22:49

economy to major

22:52

labels, labels like touch

22:54

and go, discord, merge,

22:56

places like that. We can form this

22:58

thing that exists outside of the major

23:01

label system and make money doing

23:03

it because we have

23:05

a music that people

23:07

want, or we

23:10

can sign with a major label and try

23:12

and find a new audience because

23:14

our bands are the best bands.

23:17

Those were the two dominant theories

23:19

of how to approach

23:22

success. When

23:25

bands with a great deal of potential

23:28

for a wider audience

23:30

started going to majors, the

23:33

21st century doesn't really talk about selling out

23:35

much. It is hard to

23:37

explain to people under 30 the extent to which

23:41

the idea of selling out was

23:44

a primary motivator for the

23:47

way people conducted themselves during

23:49

a certain period of time. The anxiety about

23:51

that choice. The anxiety surrounding that, yeah.

23:56

It's one of those things that's difficult to.

24:00

explain to people who were not there at

24:02

the time and

24:05

that there was a right way and a wrong

24:07

way to get

24:09

try to get rich and famous and openly

24:11

trying to get rich and famous was not

24:15

considered cool whereas

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24:20

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24:24

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they be asking what is it that you

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Corporation. I'm David

24:55

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24:57

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24:59

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25:01

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from the New York Times. Listen

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wherever you get your podcasts. I

25:27

want to shift gears and talk about like

25:29

the musical legacy of Steve

25:31

Albini here. And I want to start with

25:33

the word producer. This is one of the

25:37

strange ticks about

25:39

him that if you've read anything

25:41

about this man you've probably encountered

25:43

this. That he preferred to call

25:45

himself an engineer, a recording engineer

25:47

who recorded bands as they played.

25:50

And he did not like to

25:52

use the term producer. And again

25:55

he had ethical ideas for that.

25:57

I think he often said that implied a

25:59

level of control. role over

26:01

the artist's work that he did not want to

26:03

impose. And then there was

26:05

also the sort of music industry accounting

26:07

side of it where producers usually took

26:11

so-called points, meaning extra royalties, which he

26:13

thought was unfair. I gotta

26:16

say, I have always felt that this

26:18

was a little disingenuous, not the points side

26:20

of it, which I think is very

26:23

righteous, but him

26:25

insisting that he was not a producer,

26:28

I never quite bought it and I didn't really

26:31

ever understand why it was such a

26:33

big deal to him because it always

26:37

seemed that he was doing much more

26:39

than a simple engineer, which is a

26:42

basic technical function. And

26:44

he did have a sound, he did have

26:47

a style, and that artist

26:49

came to him for that

26:51

reason. And or at least

26:53

that was one of the reasons they came to him.

26:56

And it was partly defined by things like

26:58

the drums, he had an incredible drum

27:01

sound, the way he treated guitars, he

27:03

had these strange ticks about the way

27:05

he recorded things like vocals. Joe,

27:07

I'd like to start with you about your thoughts on

27:09

this. I'm sure you could talk for hours. But

27:12

in a nutshell, what do you think

27:15

about this part

27:17

of his biography of his obsession with

27:19

that word and why it was a

27:21

problem for him? I

27:25

agree with you to a

27:27

point about the disingenuousness, but

27:29

I also absolutely

27:32

understand why

27:34

that was part of his

27:36

whole deal. The

27:39

idea was that the

27:42

way he would record a band was

27:44

to sun up mics,

27:46

get the best sound, get the most

27:49

natural sound of the band, hit record,

27:52

and then play as many people

27:55

have commented, play video poker during

27:57

your session. Like that's the stereotype.

28:00

I think that does a couple of things. It

28:05

removes him from

28:08

the idea that he is

28:10

facilitating this

28:13

band's bad taste. Like if this band

28:15

is bad, he is not

28:17

the reason it is bad. Which

28:20

I think was both

28:22

very smart and

28:25

a little bit of a cop-out

28:27

in sort of two directions. That,

28:30

yeah, maybe

28:33

recording a band naked in a

28:35

room isn't the best way to

28:37

make a record for particular bands.

28:40

But when it worked, well,

28:43

you got some of the greatest

28:46

rock records of the past 30 years. I

28:49

think somebody in Rolling Stone

28:51

recently said that one of

28:54

the things that's amazing about the Jesus

28:56

Lizard, he recorded four records and

28:59

an EP with them, is that

29:01

they were a band almost designed

29:04

to sound great based

29:08

on the way he made records. And

29:11

that guitar-based drums, three

29:14

spectacular musicians, and

29:16

a crazy man on vocals just

29:18

holding a mic, is

29:21

sort of the ideal

29:23

stereotypical albany thing.

29:26

And very tight rhythm,

29:28

screechy guitars. Yes. It

29:30

was perfect for his

29:32

style. Sure. Yeah,

29:34

he emphasized drums and

29:36

guitar. And he emphasized

29:38

bass and voice. That was

29:41

pretty consistent in his recordings. And

29:43

frankly, some bands – and you're

29:45

right about him having a sonic

29:47

signature. Especially when he

29:49

started using the electrical

29:52

audio studio, his studio in Chicago,

29:54

when that was built, and

29:56

bands started recording there rather than the studio

29:58

that was in it. His house.

30:01

In Evanston. Nuked.

30:04

You can hear that room. In.

30:06

About fifteen seconds. On.

30:09

A record that he made. You

30:11

can hear the sound of that

30:13

room and so there's definitely singer

30:15

prints on stuff that he recorded.

30:18

So. If you're saying I'm

30:20

not producing this. Saying.

30:23

Are not producing. This is just as much

30:25

of a stance as saying. I

30:27

am producing us on some level.

30:30

It's. Just not the production

30:32

of. The.

30:34

Other the it is terrible. We're.

30:36

Going to rewrite this and I'm gonna

30:38

take. A third of

30:40

your songwriting credit doing it by

30:42

countless fans recorded with him said

30:45

he was open and had suggestions

30:47

if we. Want. To

30:49

dumb and didn't give them if we

30:51

didn't want them and really did see

30:53

his job as i want to execute

30:55

your vision. The. Flipside of

30:57

which is. The. Better have your

31:00

vision down. Real. Well

31:02

before you get in the studio, Or.

31:05

The records Not going to be terribly

31:07

interesting. I will say that one

31:09

of the things that always amazed me about.

31:12

How you record it is that even

31:14

though he had. This.

31:17

Technique and A and

31:19

a style that works

31:21

perfectly for aggressive toss.

31:23

Caesar's. Lizard. Nirvana.

31:26

Rock bands, The. Very

31:28

same techniques. When

31:31

he was doing say the breeders. Or.

31:33

Low. Or a

31:35

Palace Brothers record some of us to

31:38

Could have just this crystalline. Intimacy

31:40

about it It it was

31:42

amazing how those records which

31:45

didn't have any of that

31:47

same securing your gut. Aggro

31:50

stuff. There was

31:52

still something about the Steve a

31:54

Beanie sound that works perfectly for.

31:56

that for a completely different kind of music and

31:59

i was really admire that about

32:01

him. It's too bad that

32:03

he wasn't a big jazz

32:05

guy because I would have been fascinated

32:07

to hear him record

32:09

a small jazz combo or

32:12

a big band. Like what

32:14

would an albany recording of a

32:16

trumpet quartet, a trumpet-led jazz

32:19

quartet sound like? It's

32:21

just, it's an interesting thing to contemplate. Jeremy,

32:25

what do you think about albany the producer

32:27

who was not a producer? I

32:30

think about his precision in using language and

32:32

the way he thought about things. And to

32:34

me it's almost a semantic difference where regardless

32:37

of how much work he was doing with

32:39

the band's sound or his impact on it,

32:41

he was not producing

32:43

them in the sense of shaping anything about

32:45

their vision or the way that they sounded

32:48

or the way that they approached things. I

32:50

assume you too have seen the Metallica documentary,

32:52

Some Kind of Monster, but the record that

32:54

they were making with Bob Rock, he's very

32:56

much a member of the band. He's almost

32:58

like he may as well be a member of

33:01

Metallica in as much as how much he is

33:03

contributing to the creative process. To

33:05

me it's almost the difference between a photographer

33:07

who stages scenes in front of him and

33:09

then shoots versus a photographer who's just shooting

33:11

what is in front of him in the

33:14

most ideal conditions possible. Albany to

33:16

me was the latter. He did not

33:18

like to do much overdubbing. He did

33:20

not do, he preferred to record to

33:22

analog versus digital. So really had to

33:24

be gotten, the take had to be

33:26

good. Whoever is close to as good

33:28

as possible because it's just a lot more

33:30

work to go back and

33:33

stitch things up if it's not good. He

33:35

wanted to capture bands as they were, the

33:37

most ideal state of the way that they

33:39

thought that they were versus we'll just fix

33:41

it in post or you did one good

33:43

decent take of a vocal of a couple

33:45

of lines in a verse, but we can

33:47

stitch that together with this other take of

33:49

this chorus. And so

33:52

it's a philosophical stance almost the idea that

33:54

he really believed in the power of rock

33:56

music. I mean that's corny to say, but

33:58

I mean literally. sensation, the feeling you

34:01

got of going to a show and seeing a

34:03

band that was really tight and loud in front

34:05

of you. This is something he talked about many

34:08

times. There was a power in that, and

34:12

I think that idea of seeing a

34:14

band live and really that registering with

34:16

you was something that he wanted to

34:18

recreate in the studio versus the sense

34:20

of we labored over this for so

34:22

long in order to get it just

34:24

right. To some extent, a

34:27

lot of it was a reaction

34:29

and an opposition to standard

34:32

operating procedure in the music industry.

34:34

That the producer, in a lot

34:36

of cases, especially the major label,

34:38

the band going from the indie label to

34:41

the big label, there would be a control,

34:43

there would be a compromise, there would be

34:45

a producer that would be paid

34:47

a lot of money that would

34:49

possibly exploit the insecurities of the

34:51

band. There was a label that

34:53

was pushing for a radio hit.

34:56

That was to the point

34:58

Joe was making a moment ago. That was

35:00

on the other side of the ill

35:03

that every band of that time

35:05

was worried about, was if we

35:07

are good now, if we

35:09

sign to the major, are we going

35:11

to get screwed up? Will our

35:13

goodness be corrupted? I think

35:16

that he was a sort of alternative path there

35:18

to say, just

35:20

play. I will capture you. I

35:23

guess it'll sound like my drum sound and

35:25

whatever, but I will capture you was what

35:27

he was offering them. He told

35:29

me a story about hearing a story from

35:31

Ian Mackay at the start of his recording

35:33

career when he was playing with his band,

35:35

the Teen Idols, Teenage Idols, Teen Idols. It

35:39

was a story about how the producer that

35:41

they were working with was just tremendously rude

35:43

and dismissive of the band in the studio

35:45

to the point of almost not wanting them.

35:47

Why are you guys even playing

35:50

here? This is terrible. Steve's story

35:52

was just that terrible feeling that

35:55

must have been for the band. Here you are, or

35:57

any band really, you come in with all of your

36:00

The ideas you think you've been practicing. here's this:

36:02

know it all who's just gonna com and tell

36:04

you that doesn't sound good or I wouldn't do

36:06

that. I hear the made such a vulnerable saying

36:08

to record of any sort of prayer practice to

36:11

to. Come to lay down what you

36:13

have in your mind and hope eggs. Some of

36:15

what he could seriously and near hope is that

36:17

it's can be judged by it's the public now

36:19

before it gets out of the room and so

36:22

his name now as the others that has sort

36:24

of duality of both his ability to be offensive

36:26

and rude about other people and then this tremendous

36:28

amount of respect the upper everyone. Who came

36:30

into the studio even those played we will

36:32

have stories about it. may games little jokes

36:34

but it was all a i prefer to

36:36

think it's all done in be it's rubbish

36:38

done in good humor rather than just I'm

36:40

this guy who has knows better than you

36:42

I have superior tears and he said something

36:44

to me about how his own taste resist

36:46

perverse and it would be that and not

36:48

a good thing to enforce that on other

36:50

people have to really tried not to a

36:52

gun as aggressive as but you know the

36:55

difference between be an ass for your pin

36:57

and vs just having that attitude of like.

36:59

I'm the guy. The. Thing

37:01

that's interesting and and paradoxical about

37:03

that is the extent to which.

37:07

People. Got in the habit.

37:09

Rock. Fans got in the habit. Of.

37:13

Buying records that me.

37:16

Recorded. Just because he

37:19

recorded phone. Which. Is

37:21

exactly what. You. Would

37:23

imagine he did not want to happen. By

37:26

people did it anyway and I think it's. I.

37:29

Was thinking about this yesterday and

37:31

he's the one of the very

37:33

first examples of in his production

37:35

style and in his brushing philosophy

37:37

of. Retweets do not

37:40

equal endorsements. Like he's

37:42

gonna record your band for seven hundred bucks

37:44

an hour or whatever the was. By

37:47

it is not responsible for you

37:49

being bad light if you're if

37:51

you have. If the songs

37:53

are lousy, He will

37:55

record their lousiness beautifully. on

37:58

is not necessarily you know how be mega less

38:00

lousy unless you

38:02

say something. So there

38:04

was this weird balance

38:07

where, I mean, for a brief period

38:09

of time, that was true because

38:11

he was in the habit of recording

38:13

his friends and helping bands

38:16

that he genuinely liked make good

38:18

recordings. But there

38:21

was also a point where, hey, we're going to, I

38:24

mean, near the end, what is now difficult

38:27

to contemplate is the end of his

38:30

career. You'd find a lot of underground

38:32

rock records that were not particularly good

38:34

that were recorded by him. It's like, well,

38:36

this sounds great, but this

38:39

is not a terribly interesting record. It's

38:42

nobody's fault except the band. To

38:44

follow up on Jeremy's comment

38:46

a moment ago, one of my

38:48

favorite comments that was posted

38:51

on social media was by the band, I

38:53

guess we'll call them F'd up. It

38:57

says, R.I.P. Steve, you

38:59

hated our band and made fun of us

39:01

while we were recording at your studio. But

39:04

you stood up for something honest and fair in

39:07

music and tried to make it a better place

39:09

in everything you did, and there will never be

39:11

another one like you. It's

39:14

just incredible. I was like, where's

39:16

the punchline of, I hate

39:18

you, man. But that's Steve Albini

39:20

in a nutshell, I think, is

39:23

that he was the

39:25

troll who could piss people off and

39:27

would make fun of the bands practically

39:29

to their face. But they

39:31

admired it. He stood for something, and

39:34

very few other people that they would

39:36

come across did. Yeah.

39:40

It's interesting that when he

39:42

started recording bands and started coming out of that

39:45

scene in the 80s, that

39:48

was the lingua franca of that scene,

39:50

was that people won't give each other

39:53

an enormous amount of grief, but

39:55

we're all still friends, or at least we've

39:57

got to play on the same bills. And

40:01

so, but as the community gets bigger

40:03

and you don't, and you

40:05

start recording, and he starts recording bands that

40:07

aren't necessarily part of his inner circle, that

40:10

sort of attitude suddenly seems downright

40:12

exotic. That that strikes me

40:14

as being treated like one of the guys as

40:17

it were, but at the same time,

40:19

if he was

40:21

very open about saying my

40:24

taste is not relevant

40:27

to recording a band,

40:30

which yes and no. It's,

40:33

you know, I don't necessarily think

40:35

that's the blanket statement. It

40:38

sounds like, but you can see where he's

40:40

coming from that that that is a sentence

40:42

that says I'm if you show up, I

40:45

will do a good job for you as

40:47

he was fond of saying like a plumber.

40:50

Like I will do the job that

40:52

I am assigned. I'm not

40:54

saying I'm not going to tell

40:56

you that you are lousy while I'm doing

40:58

it. If I know that you can take

41:00

the joke, does that make sense?

41:03

Yeah. He told

41:05

me a story about how in the late 90s

41:07

he was approached by Robert Plant and Jimmy Page

41:10

of Led Zeppelin to record their record. They were

41:12

making music together for the first time in however

41:14

many years, which is, as you

41:16

can imagine, was a level of celebrity

41:18

and visibility that was much different than

41:20

anyone he really worked with, even Nirvana.

41:24

And he said something about how working with them

41:26

was the first time that he thought to himself

41:28

that he had not been hired just

41:30

for his reputation alone. He was hired to do

41:32

his – he was hired to do a

41:34

job. And if he didn't do the job, they were

41:37

going to be happy firing him and Bringing

41:40

in the next guy who was going to

41:42

do it how they wanted. And This was

41:44

described to me in the context and this

41:46

softening of his ego and understanding. He didn't

41:48

want to weigh in on everything. And I

41:50

Think by that point, he would already kind

41:52

of stepped away from the more opinion-driven production.

41:55

But There's that sense of seeing himself as

41:57

just a cog in the process rather than,

41:59

yeah, something. When it was an Arab

42:01

really up some fundamental role in making it

42:03

good or bad, but I was others as

42:05

such. a contrast to so many of the

42:07

describe experiences. I mean working with these tubes,

42:10

global celebrities and his. He said something about

42:12

how been broken for the weekend family combat

42:14

that many came out on Monday Robert Plant

42:16

was ago I was in Monica. i'm into

42:18

Monaco for two days or whatever like what

42:20

you do and while wasn't flying to Monica

42:23

fitted to pumps or back to London so

42:25

that I mean I got the impression that

42:27

made up a big and prints that experience

42:29

the page. And plan thing I think

42:31

is an interesting example because. It's.

42:35

An example of somebody. Working.

42:39

With. Some. Guys

42:41

that invented him. In

42:44

a certain way. It

42:46

is impossible to imagine Steve

42:49

Albania's drums. Without.

42:52

When. The levee breaks. He talked

42:54

about bonum a lot, right? I'm sorry. I'm

42:57

sure he did. Yes, I mean that is

42:59

the sound baths. You. Know, but

43:01

the first time you hear Surfer Rosa of

43:03

you're A Kid and You've heard Legs Up

43:05

When records before. Are. You pick

43:08

that record up and you're like, oh,

43:10

This. Sounds like zap one. Like.

43:13

This sounds like. This is the

43:15

drum sound of when the levee breaks mouse

43:17

early my experience and you flip it over

43:19

and look at the credits. inside to the

43:21

house the of Albania, but you know this

43:23

is something I've been. This is a sound

43:25

that I think is absolutely amazing. And

43:28

so working with page and plants.

43:30

Was. Like oh this guy for suit

43:33

in working with Jimmy Page. He

43:35

is working with a producer who

43:37

is absolutely as good as he

43:39

is and I think it would

43:41

probably say much much better. The.

43:43

You listen to those. Zeppelin.

43:45

Records and they sound

43:48

uniformly incredible. It

43:50

like to solder don't but they sound

43:52

amazing. And. it's it's it's

43:54

impossible to imagine his production

43:56

style on something like the

43:59

jesus lizard without the

44:01

existence of Led Zeppelin. So producing

44:04

that record, I always thought was a fascinating,

44:06

like, this is a bit of

44:08

a weird full circle moment, isn't it? This

44:11

podcast is supported by the new Porsche Panamera.

44:13

When you follow the crowd, you

44:15

lose something that few possess. Originality.

44:20

A forging

44:22

your own path and embracing

44:25

the unknown. Living fearlessly, without

44:27

limits or reservations, and trusting

44:29

your instincts, you'll

44:32

chart a brave new course

44:34

of your own. The new Porsche

44:36

Panamera. Choose boldly.

44:42

The key to the whole story of

44:45

Steve Albini is Nirvana, and

44:47

that if he had simply recorded the

44:49

Jesus Lizard records and Surfer Rosa and

44:52

maybe even PJ Harvey and all of

44:54

the great music that he did, we

44:57

would be remembering him as a

45:00

really good producer engineer of underground

45:02

music. But the fact that

45:04

there was this bizarre

45:06

moment in the early 90s where,

45:08

like, the Jesus Lizard

45:10

and Nirvana were kind of on the

45:13

same plane for a second. I mean,

45:15

they literally made a single together where,

45:17

like, the, you know, the

45:20

band that kicked Michael Jackson off

45:22

of number one on the charts

45:25

came from a crazy underground

45:28

grunge rock milieu.

45:30

And this was an intersection of

45:33

the underground and mainstream pop culture.

45:36

And it's so fascinating to look back

45:38

on it now and see that it

45:41

was an incredible, like, opportunity for him,

45:43

a big moment, an important

45:45

record, but it was also very fraught.

45:47

Like, you know, he writes the letter

45:49

to them saying, like, I'll

45:51

do it under these conditions and it's got to

45:53

be good and it can't be just some BS

45:56

nonsense and I'm not going to be paid

45:58

like a producer. aftermath,

46:00

they're giving the tapes to other

46:02

people to remix. It

46:04

has all of that fallout

46:07

to it of the sort of bad

46:10

taste that's left in people's mouths after

46:12

they go from the underground to the

46:14

mainstream. And that whole experience,

46:16

I think, is like the

46:19

key moment in the story of

46:21

Steve Albini. He might bite my head off if

46:23

you were to hear me say that. But I

46:25

think if you're writing his biography,

46:27

if you're writing his obituary, that's

46:30

the signal moment. I think

46:32

this is something he talked about in his Baffler

46:34

essay, The Problem with Music, or it might have

46:36

been some other interview clip that I saw. But

46:39

he talked about the pitfalls of thinking

46:41

that you can be the one to outsmart the

46:43

system. If I get this deal, I can get

46:45

a manager, I can work things to my advantage,

46:47

and I can somehow avoid the

46:50

mistakes that other people

46:52

have made. When in reality, they're not

46:54

necessarily mistakes. They're things, not to be

46:56

paranoid, but they're forces conspiring against you

46:59

to not make things go the way

47:01

that you want. Joe mentioned this Time

47:03

Magazine article where all of a sudden

47:06

you have record label executives giving anonymous

47:08

quotes to Time Magazine about how Albini

47:11

is screwing up this band. That's not

47:13

something that, quote unquote, decent

47:15

people want to deal with in their

47:17

dealings, but sometimes you have to go

47:19

through it. The Nirvana experience gave him

47:21

all this exposure, but he talked about

47:24

how it made him toxic to a

47:26

lot of entities about in terms of

47:28

major labels didn't want to work with

47:30

major label executives didn't want their bands

47:32

to work with him anymore. I remember

47:35

talking to Gavin Rossdale of Bush for

47:37

the Guardian piece, who Albini made a

47:39

record with. He was saying that Jimmy

47:41

Iovine was really pushing him against working

47:43

with Albini when they wanted to

47:46

do it, but they stuck to it

47:48

and made it work. It's easy to

47:50

see Albini as the towering figure, which

47:52

he was in his community, but then

47:54

you compare that to some of the

47:57

forces that you can imagine exist at

47:59

these companies. or within the industry who

48:01

have so much more clout and money and

48:03

institutional reach and the ability

48:05

that they may have had to affect him. And

48:08

it's easier just to see it as like he's really standing

48:10

up for some authentic principles. This was

48:12

someone who was, if he thought of himself as

48:14

a cog on a record, he was

48:17

just a cog in this

48:19

broader tapestry of bands and people

48:21

involved with them. So I

48:23

don't know where my point is with that, but

48:25

just that it's hard to

48:27

like stick up for what you believe in

48:29

when you, I mean, not just it's hard

48:31

and difficult in general, but especially when you're

48:33

there's really people working against you to disadvantage

48:36

you for that. Well, I

48:38

think yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

48:40

And I think it's also the

48:44

question of Nirvana is of is

48:48

an interesting and is a thorny

48:50

one because unless

48:52

that band was prepared to make

48:55

Nevermind Part Two, whoever

48:59

had to record that thing,

49:01

the follow-up was

49:03

going to be under ungodly amounts

49:05

of pressure from different

49:09

areas from both sides. You've

49:12

got guys at Geffen saying

49:14

old school record guys who

49:17

had no idea what the logic was

49:19

of a band that kind of didn't

49:22

want to be famous this

49:24

fast versus

49:26

an underground that was

49:28

saying, oh, you guys are sellouts

49:31

for not only signing to

49:33

a major and making a record

49:35

that sounded like a beer ad, but

49:38

having a hit single

49:41

out of it, multiple hit singles. And

49:44

so you've got this situation where there's this

49:46

poor guy who I

49:49

think wanted to sign to a major and like get

49:51

his finances in order and be sick. And have a

49:53

certain amount of youth. Yeah, be solid.

49:55

You have a certain amount of success. Make

49:58

this band a viable full-time

50:00

option and then

50:03

four or five months later he's

50:05

suddenly being called the voice of a

50:08

generation and

50:10

he's probably just turned old

50:14

enough to rent a car and

50:18

it's just astonishing to think about

50:20

30 years later

50:22

how fast this was and

50:25

if you were a kid then it was like

50:27

oh this is how rock music works like you

50:30

signed to a label and then

50:32

your stuff is pretty good and you get

50:34

famous and when the

50:37

thing about picking albany to

50:40

record the follow-up was

50:43

a very direct we

50:46

are not part of this machine that

50:48

we have been thrust into we

50:50

are signaling that we

50:53

want to do something that

50:55

is rougher

50:58

and less flagrantly commercial

51:01

which we didn't know was flagrantly commercial

51:03

at the time because records

51:06

that sounded like us hadn't been a

51:08

thing yet it was a

51:10

protest it was a protest and it was

51:12

a not I

51:14

mean not a self-conscious I think as let's

51:17

see if we can buy some of our credibility

51:19

back I don't think it was that I think

51:21

it was genuinely I want to hear what our

51:23

records sound like with this guy

51:25

producing them I mean according I disagree with

51:27

you I think it was an attempt

51:29

to reclaim credibility and I think it was oh

51:33

did we do something bad let's go

51:35

back let's get back

51:37

to something more aggressive and

51:40

underground sounding like we're not Michael

51:42

Jackson I do feel

51:45

like it was a correction that's a

51:47

fair point that's a fair point and

51:49

famously Nirvana sent a demo to touch

51:51

and go at some point and touch

51:54

and go was not touch and go is the

51:57

label for people who have no idea what I'm

51:59

talking about Duchango is the

52:01

record label that Albinis bands put

52:04

records out on.

52:07

A lot of songs. One of the

52:09

ultimate indie punk 80s labels from Chicago.

52:12

It's easy to forget this now

52:14

that time has passed, but I think also

52:16

there is an element to the dynamic where

52:18

someone like Cobain really looked up to someone like

52:21

Albinis. I mean, Albinis was just a few years

52:23

earlier, older than him while we're talking the difference

52:25

between 30 and 26, which

52:28

is nothing. But by that point, Albinis

52:30

had been known a public figure, so

52:32

to speak, for what? Almost

52:35

a decade, especially if you were someone who paid

52:37

attention to punk music as much as Kurt did

52:39

and collected zines and went to shows. I mean,

52:41

he had seen Big Black perform. He had

52:43

paid attention, probably subscribed to every zine

52:46

that he ever wrote a column in.

52:48

And I think it wasn't just the

52:50

idea of I'm going to reclaim

52:52

some credibility, but almost working with

52:54

a hero, especially at this moment of, I

52:56

mean, hero is such a grandiose word for

52:59

how Albinis carried himself. But yeah, if

53:01

you're sort of navigating these feelings of

53:03

authenticity and credibility as the machine is

53:05

trying to take you over, you're not

53:07

just working with a guy who stands

53:10

for these things, but who is someone who's

53:12

the person whose work in particular you have

53:14

looked to as a guiding point.

53:16

And I think Steve Albinis

53:18

was very aware of

53:20

that and then just wanted to help

53:23

them out. I mean, I think I don't want to

53:25

speak for him, but I recall him talking about this.

53:27

And with me, just in the

53:29

context of seeing that this

53:32

is a band that was very easily going to

53:34

be taken advantage of. And Albinis didn't have their

53:36

wits about them, but there was just so much.

53:38

I mean, they were the golden goose of the

53:40

time. There's so much outside influence

53:43

that could have changed the sound of the record

53:45

and did in fact do that. And it was

53:47

almost like an act of solidarity to just be

53:49

like, I know you are from this world that

53:51

I respect. And I trust your

53:54

values and I'm going to almost do

53:56

you a solid and by helping

53:59

you make this. Okay, so

54:01

in our time left, I want to talk

54:03

about Albini's own music and

54:05

his bands, primarily Big Black and

54:07

Shellac. I'm curious what you guys

54:10

think about that legacy. I

54:13

also want to point out something that Joe reminded

54:15

me of, which is that Shellac, which has been

54:18

his main band since the early 90s, is

54:21

about to release their latest album. Their

54:23

first album in 10 years, it's just

54:25

about to come out. Shocking

54:27

the timing to that. I

54:29

don't know if you guys have heard it. I haven't heard it yet.

54:32

But maybe I should start

54:34

with you, Joe, since you're such the Albini scholar.

54:38

I personally have never been the biggest

54:40

fan. I admire it in some of

54:42

the music I like a lot. But

54:44

I do wonder at this point in time,

54:46

how do you think the Big Black legacy

54:50

holds up in 2024? Well,

54:53

that's a big question. It

54:56

mixed in that

54:58

it is very much music of

55:01

a particular time and place. But

55:05

I think the way

55:07

those songs are put together and the

55:09

way they sound can

55:12

still be profoundly powerful to

55:15

somebody hearing them for the first time. And

55:19

it's, you

55:22

put those records on now and

55:25

the way that he uses it, the

55:28

way that band used a drum machine was

55:32

so influential in the American

55:34

Underground at

55:37

the time that other bands woke up

55:39

and were like, maybe we should try

55:41

and use a drum machine. And those

55:43

records, some

55:45

of them sound absolutely extraordinary.

55:48

I think witnessing

55:50

them live, which I am too

55:52

young to have done, was

55:55

a very profound experience.

55:57

There's a wonderful interview.

56:00

you on the podcast

56:02

Creative Control from 2015 with Ian

56:06

Mackay and Steve Albini,

56:09

who are very similar people in a

56:11

lot of ways and flip

56:13

sides of each other in some interesting ways,

56:15

but very similar in a lot of ways,

56:17

where they talk about, Ian talked about seeing

56:20

big black for the first time. And

56:23

Ian says something like,

56:25

my thing is heartbeats. Like,

56:27

I'm interested in natural

56:30

rhythms, like the beat of

56:32

a heart. I

56:34

think that's my center. Big

56:36

black is the opposite of that.

56:38

Is this just

56:41

wall of sound coming

56:43

at you, extremely

56:46

loud, extremely

56:48

distorted. I mean, I think,

56:52

I don't know what contemporary listeners would

56:54

make of those records, because it's very

56:57

hard for me not to hear

57:01

innovations in the way, simply, guitar

57:04

sound, in every most

57:07

underground rock bands of that type

57:10

that came afterwards. I

57:12

think that the musical legacy that he put

57:14

together with

57:17

that band, it's definitely

57:20

one of those things that if

57:22

you were into it, you were

57:24

extremely into it. And

57:26

if you weren't into it, it was like, I

57:29

don't understand why you are interested in this at

57:31

all. I think

57:33

it's like the aesthetic is all

57:35

about extremity. It's all about really

57:38

extreme sounds and noise. And

57:40

that never dates well. Like, what was extreme

57:42

30 or 40 years

57:44

ago doesn't sound extreme

57:47

anymore. So the sound of the

57:49

guitars, the sound of the drum

57:51

machine is less shocking. But

57:54

I felt listening to it now that

57:56

it, especially

57:59

in his voice, just

58:01

the feeling of rage and just

58:03

the voice screaming at

58:07

the insanity of the world just

58:10

comes across so powerfully. And

58:12

to me, when you first start

58:14

to hear the drum machine, it

58:17

does sound like ministry or something. It

58:19

doesn't sound as wild as I remembered

58:22

it, but the

58:24

songwriting and the voice were the thing that

58:26

really jumped out to me listening

58:28

to it again. And that felt

58:30

as wild as ever. Jeremy, what's

58:32

your take? Yeah, so it's funny when I was

58:35

beginning to draft this story after

58:37

I had met Elbene. I

58:40

picked up a copy of Atomizer on vinyl.

58:44

My wife and I have a record player in

58:46

our kitchen and typically we'll just put on some

58:48

music as one of us cooks. And my wife

58:50

is, this sounds silly to say, is someone's a

58:52

huge music fan, but she listens to quite a

58:54

lot of music and knows more than

58:57

me probably. And

58:59

she had never heard Big Black before.

59:01

And she said something about how she

59:03

was expecting something totally different. She thought

59:05

that they were supposed to be more ministry

59:07

or industrial, but she was really taken by

59:09

just how caught and aggressive

59:11

and pitched it was and how

59:13

interesting and noisy and aggressive.

59:16

It's still founded for the first time, a

59:19

hearing in her life. And when

59:21

I think about revisiting the Big

59:23

Black records or shellac, the extremity

59:25

sticks out to me about some

59:27

of those records, but what

59:31

also really resonates, I think this is

59:33

the thing that immediately just still leaps

59:35

out. You're hearing for the first time

59:37

is just how attentive they sound. I

59:39

mean, these don't sound like records

59:41

made by people who are staring

59:43

at their pedals and taking their time, which

59:45

is to say nothing of music that's a

59:48

little bit more relaxed, but Big Black and

59:50

shellac, it sounds like music being played by

59:52

people who are standing on their tiptoes. We're

59:54

just ready for anything to happen. There's just

59:57

a sense of awareness and intentionality, I mean,

59:59

the shellac. in particular being so stripped

1:00:01

down. I mean it's just the fundamental instruments

1:00:03

as Joe, I think you said

1:00:05

earlier, is like guitar, drum space, like

1:00:07

it's as like basic as it could

1:00:10

get. And part of the project is

1:00:13

to me is just like maximizing what you

1:00:15

can do with that with as like as

1:00:17

little as possible. And so that's what

1:00:19

I think of when I think about those records. It's just

1:00:21

like the it's

1:00:24

just everything sounding the way that it's

1:00:26

meant to and it's very aware of

1:00:28

where it is. And there's no messing

1:00:30

about, there's no kind of noodling as

1:00:32

you were. It is like almost like

1:00:35

a concentrated rock music and it's like

1:00:37

platonic ideal form of just like cheers,

1:00:40

no nonsense. I agree.

1:00:42

I think there's something that's interesting

1:00:45

about the music they see made over

1:00:47

this 40 years fan is

1:00:49

the I like to think of

1:00:51

it as like started going from big

1:00:53

black to shellac. I like to think of it as one

1:00:56

of those magic eye posters where

1:00:58

like one black shape and

1:01:00

then if you adjust your eyes, you see

1:01:02

this white shape. That's the arc of his

1:01:05

career in terms of the sound

1:01:08

of the music itself. You have

1:01:10

big black, which is this incredibly

1:01:12

dense thing to

1:01:14

this dense wall of

1:01:16

sound that has

1:01:19

breaks and room for

1:01:21

space, but it's mostly characterized by

1:01:23

this relentlessness. Like you turn on

1:01:26

the drum machine and then go and then

1:01:28

three minutes later you get another like blast

1:01:31

of this furious thing. And

1:01:34

then with the right

1:01:36

man record, which

1:01:38

is an extraordinary record hampered by

1:01:41

one of the worst band names

1:01:43

of all time. And that record

1:01:46

holds up to this day. It's

1:01:48

an extraordinary album, terrible band

1:01:50

name, But you have this

1:01:52

sort of trying to figure out, okay, we

1:01:54

take away one guitar and now we have

1:01:56

a live drummer and it's a classic power

1:01:58

trio. That sounds

1:02:00

like. And. You have

1:02:02

these extraordinary songs. With. Them

1:02:05

and then by the time you get to select.

1:02:07

The percentage of noise

1:02:09

and silence has been.

1:02:13

Reversed. That. You've got

1:02:15

these songs that deal with space

1:02:17

and a really interesting way. There's

1:02:19

a lot of. It's.

1:02:21

Almost like an on off

1:02:24

switch like series. Music: Sears

1:02:26

Space: And those

1:02:28

so like music makes.

1:02:30

A. Great deal more. Stay.

1:02:33

Out of silence and space.

1:02:36

Than. Something like big Black which is

1:02:38

just. A. Big rush it you.

1:02:41

And. I mean when they when

1:02:43

she liked started they describe themselves

1:02:45

very openly as a minimalist rock

1:02:47

trio. And. I think we are with

1:02:49

Germany's at is spot on of it's like

1:02:52

we're going to be a minimum minimalist rock

1:02:54

trio. What does that mean? What?

1:02:56

Does it mean to use these things

1:02:58

to make a record when I can

1:03:00

introduce at weird errant pedals? Mean I

1:03:02

haven't heard the new records and maybe

1:03:04

there's a weird errands at all on

1:03:06

their. well. I would seriously doubt that.

1:03:09

Jeremy. I had a question for you

1:03:11

when you talk to Albania about his whole.

1:03:14

Reconciliation. Period. So much

1:03:16

of that was about his like

1:03:19

extra musical commentary things he said

1:03:21

the things he wrote did he

1:03:23

feel like there was anything in

1:03:26

his music like big black lyrics

1:03:28

of stuff to apologize for was

1:03:30

added all part of his process.

1:03:33

I don't think the music itself but maybe

1:03:35

like the our work that they had used

1:03:37

for a single were like a lighter notes

1:03:39

that he had written a we didn't get

1:03:41

too much of the to the nitty gritty

1:03:43

of. Like. The actual songs

1:03:46

I think he i believe you what

1:03:48

is the Celts the disks is distinction

1:03:50

of are utterly artist and sense of

1:03:52

late that black big black music was

1:03:54

not autobiographical they were described mean extreme

1:03:56

situations I think he was a little

1:03:59

bit more effort. The ball he talked

1:04:01

directly about regretted name it the ban

1:04:03

great man but he didn't talk about

1:04:05

like the movies. regretting. The music itself

1:04:07

works using similar for a Big Black

1:04:09

single called The Hills youtube. Reading

1:04:11

and in the liner notes about how

1:04:14

much they admired Benito Mussolini, it like

1:04:16

that's it. Everything eve so bad about

1:04:18

but not the saw that self in

1:04:20

medical exam. That's

1:04:22

interesting, right? That, like in terms

1:04:24

of making music, There was

1:04:27

nothing that he felt he needed to

1:04:29

address apologize for anything like that. As

1:04:32

at the stuff around, the music weathered

1:04:34

what you call your band or what

1:04:36

the armor you user, the way that

1:04:38

you presented to him. The liner notes

1:04:40

know the extracurricular stuff, other any sort

1:04:43

of concluding thoughts hear that you guys

1:04:45

might want to share about the legacies,

1:04:47

the they'll be the or the those

1:04:49

The response over the last day what

1:04:51

do you guys think Jeremy wanna say

1:04:53

thing? there. When. When

1:04:55

I first talked to him and

1:04:58

was taken in just what. And.

1:05:00

We're taught from a long time and it's

1:05:02

so many things that old mill. it did

1:05:04

not make it into my profile. but where

1:05:06

is. Really? Struck by was just

1:05:09

the way that he talked about making music.

1:05:11

Derby being creative are doing anything as of

1:05:13

is all. It was not some expression of

1:05:15

a celebrity or means of getting famous like

1:05:17

he talked about. It's funny because he was

1:05:19

such an unpretentious figure. Been was very open

1:05:22

talking about arts and artistry and being an

1:05:24

artist and what that meant to work at

1:05:26

something every day and but admit to make

1:05:28

music or any said creative apps Yeah not

1:05:30

because of is going to make you a

1:05:32

big deal but because it was just it

1:05:35

was important to do it because and major.

1:05:37

Like. Made you better I may. I don't

1:05:39

think he put it in those terms, but

1:05:41

it says it's about the the purpose of

1:05:43

being alive in your everyday lives existence and

1:05:45

but of any sort of hobby, your skill

1:05:47

or trade that anyone efforts picks up like.

1:05:50

Renew. men's enjoy renewal enjoy

1:05:52

and purpose in like the every

1:05:55

day after the small acts of

1:05:57

creation is as just like philosophy

1:06:00

for how to get the most out of your

1:06:02

time here. I mean, it extends to the fact

1:06:04

that he had a home garden, that he cooked

1:06:06

the polar herbs, ramen vegetables, and get cooked for

1:06:08

his wife and his friends all the time. The

1:06:11

idea that you keep it in, you

1:06:13

do it in your circle, you do these

1:06:15

things because they are, maybe as a tech

1:06:17

person would say, you're not optimizing your time

1:06:19

the best. You learn something from the practice

1:06:21

of doing it. It's the process, not the

1:06:23

rewards. And again, here's someone who had done

1:06:25

so much, and I mean, more than any

1:06:28

profile or interview or podcast could ever

1:06:30

sum up. And he did not look back. He

1:06:34

was not nostalgic whatsoever. He was

1:06:36

not like saying, oh, this time that

1:06:38

I did this great thing, it was

1:06:40

all very much in the moment and

1:06:42

going forward. And I was just thinking about that

1:06:45

as it related to whatever sort of creative practice

1:06:47

I've ever wanted to do, or people I know

1:06:49

in my life, and just you think of what

1:06:51

is the purpose of doing this thing? Where is

1:06:53

it getting me? And well, the purpose is doing

1:06:55

the thing. It's not about where it's going to

1:06:57

get you or where you might go. You go

1:07:00

somewhere in the act of doing

1:07:02

it. I got this feeling that

1:07:04

I was talking to some sort of Buddhist scholar,

1:07:06

even though yeah, he was not necessarily a Zen

1:07:08

figure, but he had this, to

1:07:11

me it just felt like a very profound outlook

1:07:13

on life, even though it was quite simple in

1:07:15

terms of its decency or attempt

1:07:17

to just do right by the

1:07:19

people around him and live in the moment. So

1:07:22

the music is fantastic, I think. And this is

1:07:24

my just impression from having talked to him, but

1:07:26

that really stuck with me. And

1:07:29

I think it's something that people, many people

1:07:31

in his life and around him picked up

1:07:33

on and have relayed similarly. Joe

1:07:35

Gross, what do you say? I

1:07:38

think all of that is absolutely spot

1:07:40

on. I think he is a figure

1:07:42

that could have only, I think he

1:07:45

really took the idea

1:07:47

of what, if

1:07:52

I'm, he's a wonderful example of

1:07:56

what happens when somebody takes

1:07:58

punk rock real seriously. And

1:08:01

it says, well, what does this

1:08:03

mean to think of this,

1:08:06

to think of the world in a particular way

1:08:08

that there is a, that there

1:08:10

is a correct

1:08:13

way to do things. And

1:08:15

it just so happens that the correct way

1:08:17

to do things also

1:08:21

screws over the least amount of people

1:08:23

possible. And

1:08:26

you can make great art

1:08:28

without participating in the nonsense

1:08:30

that comes around making, can

1:08:33

come around making great art.

1:08:38

And yeah, he just seems like a guy

1:08:40

that was

1:08:42

this interesting combination of profoundly

1:08:44

down to earth and

1:08:49

colossally smart

1:08:53

and a

1:08:55

very precise thinker. And

1:08:58

all of that came together in

1:09:00

a way that made him, somebody

1:09:03

else used this phrase the other day, and it's, it's

1:09:06

horrifying to think about in terms of this

1:09:08

guy. But somebody referred

1:09:10

to him as a particular kind of public intellectual.

1:09:15

And you wouldn't want to say

1:09:17

that about your worst enemy, but

1:09:19

that's an amazing idea regarding him

1:09:22

because his ideas were always freely available

1:09:24

if you knew where to look. And

1:09:27

he was always very willing to give you

1:09:29

his opinion on something when

1:09:31

asked and had grown out of

1:09:33

the habit of giving it to you, whether requested or not.

1:09:37

But the overwhelming feeling that

1:09:40

I think was generated by

1:09:43

his passing was, I have

1:09:46

lost someone I feel very

1:09:49

personally about in

1:09:51

a way that I have not lost someone

1:09:55

I feel very personally about who was also this

1:09:57

famous before. That was very, very Interesting..

1:10:00

Terrible. Sentence But they are

1:10:02

either I just approaching your

1:10:04

work with integrity and directness.

1:10:06

Approaching the world with integrity

1:10:08

and directness. Well.

1:10:11

Get you pretty far. I. Mean,

1:10:13

I love the thought that. The.

1:10:15

Guy who. Made.

1:10:17

Some of the most

1:10:20

like horrendously ugly sounds

1:10:22

and took these. Outrageous

1:10:24

stances on so many things are

1:10:27

lead us out of provocation. that

1:10:29

like his ultimate legacy is. About

1:10:32

Ideas. And about

1:10:34

the moral teachings that you can

1:10:36

take from. Punk

1:10:39

Rock music. That's the origin of so

1:10:41

much of what he talked about and

1:10:43

I think what he ultimately came around

1:10:45

to in his life saddened and I

1:10:47

think that's a kind of an amazing

1:10:49

journey. That. He went on and that

1:10:51

like that. That is his legacy in So in in

1:10:53

a in a big way. There.

1:10:55

You can make colossally ugly art

1:10:58

with the generosity of spirit that

1:11:00

really resonates with people. Over

1:11:03

the long term. Okay,

1:11:05

I want to say thank you to Jeremy

1:11:08

Gordon and Joe Gross for joining us here!

1:11:10

Talk about. Steve. How many?

1:11:12

Thank you guys very much. Go.

1:11:15

In peace with. Big. Black

1:11:17

guitars, I. Spent six.

1:11:20

Every podcast ever is

1:11:22

available at N Y

1:11:25

times.com/podcast. Every episode

1:11:27

of Podcast Deluxe with don't

1:11:29

Care Monica Joe costs for

1:11:31

really is on you Tube

1:11:34

at you tube.com/podcast please like

1:11:36

and subscribe on Apple Spot

1:11:38

a fi you to or

1:11:40

anywhere you get your audio

1:11:43

content. Our producer

1:11:45

has always is Paper Rosato

1:11:47

from had several media. We

1:11:49

will be back next week.

1:11:53

Let's go out with the song prayer

1:11:55

to God. schwab We're

1:12:00

a long time ago. If

1:12:13

a friend asks how you're doing and

1:12:15

you say... I'm okay. When

1:12:18

the truth is... I don't want

1:12:20

my problems to burden anyone. Or

1:12:22

you say... Hang it in there. Because...

1:12:25

If I ask for help, they'll just

1:12:27

think I'm weak. Then

1:12:29

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1:12:31

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