4:00

by Eminem. And he would be the

4:02

first to tell you. But all of

4:04

a sudden people were like, this guy

4:06

is a poet. And it was never

4:09

happened again for with any artist ever,

4:11

ever since with any

4:13

white rapper. Oh, I thought you were talking about Kendrick.

4:15

Sorry. But

4:18

I, I, I remained shocked.

4:22

I'd forgotten. I'd kind of like memory

4:24

hold that layer of coverage. Like obviously

4:26

it was covered in hip hop press.

4:28

Obviously people were very, there

4:31

was a moral panic associated with it. You

4:36

know, there was like, I mean, I

4:38

wrote that fader cover and whatever, like

4:41

Marshall, Marshall Mathers era. It's

4:43

covered widely in hip hop and kind

4:45

of like cool music press. But there

4:47

was that layer of implicit

4:50

disdain for the creative capability

4:53

of rap music baked

4:55

into a damn. We love

4:57

how this guy plays with words. That's

5:00

1000% attributable

5:03

to his presence as a white rapper at

5:05

a high level. Obviously white rappers before. And

5:09

I just, I don't know something about

5:11

remembering that era made me

5:13

shiver a little bit over the weekend. And

5:17

I, I, I wish it had not happened.

5:19

I, I low key think Eminem wished

5:22

that layer of conversation had not happened.

5:24

That seems certain. Yeah.

5:27

And it's put him in

5:29

a strange position where almost

5:32

everything he's done subsequently to the first

5:34

like three albums is like demonstrably

5:37

worse. Quality wise,

5:40

it's often bigger, especially when he toys

5:42

with rock music and big samples, it's

5:44

often very big, like spacious, but

5:47

for him to kind of come full circle

5:49

and be like on my new album, what's

5:51

the album going to be called? It's going

5:53

to be called the death of Slim Shady.

5:55

Niseon Sen. Kudagra. We're

6:00

going to be talking about cinema. The second

6:02

set. Were you joking? No,

6:05

I really thought that's what it was in class. Sorry.

6:08

Anyway, we're going to be talking about cinema. We're

6:12

going to be talking about coming in July, French

6:14

film criticism in the second segment of

6:17

the show today. Um, could

6:19

have got. Yeah. Could have

6:21

got. Sure. Why not? Um,

6:24

all he has left is to go back to

6:26

this kind of like raw poetic

6:28

period. With the

6:30

same tired double and triple

6:33

entendres. And again,

6:35

it's fine. It's fine. It's

6:38

a classic TRL era video. Everyone's

6:41

in this video. Dr. Dre. Shane Gillis.

6:44

The two pillars of America.

6:46

That's really actually though. Um,

6:50

so yeah, Dr. Dre, Jimmy Iovine,

6:52

Shane Gillis. Paul Rosenberg. Pete Davidson.

6:54

Shout out Pete Davidson. Yeah. Um,

6:57

everybody's in this video. Um, Uh,

7:02

What's it? So I

7:04

was in middle school. Every

7:09

M and M piece about this album should

7:11

start with. So I don't know. No,

7:13

but it's funny because, okay. Did you

7:15

do anything when you heard Eminem in middle school? Did

7:18

you do anything crazy? I have a very distinct memory. Did

7:21

you beat anybody up with a skateboard? I did not

7:23

beat anybody up. Um, No,

7:26

Eminem was the one getting beat up, I think, which

7:28

is like, look much like, much

7:30

like Kurt Cobain or Fred Durst.

7:32

I feel like people are confused

7:35

about who the aggressor and who,

7:37

who the victim is, uh, with

7:39

a lot of these, um, sensitive

7:41

male musicians. Shout out Kurt Cobain.

7:44

Who present, who present as, um,

7:46

aggressive. Um, no, I

7:48

have a, I have a very similar story to yours.

7:50

I was not reading the nation, uh, but I had

7:52

just moved to a new school in the middle of

7:55

my sixth year. It looks

7:57

like full of pieces from 2000.

8:01

written by white literary critics

8:03

who never previously thought of rap music

8:05

and never subsequently thought about rap music.

8:09

Yes. The

8:11

girl in front of me, I was in

8:13

a new school. Okay. Didn't

8:15

know anyone. Yeah. Middle

8:17

of the year, sixth grade. I

8:20

moved. A mid-year transfer. I moved

8:23

in Y2K. That's when

8:25

I moved. Yeah. I'm

8:27

like, I went to. I had to

8:29

reassign to a new Marines unit. My

8:33

father's mad in the military. Girl

8:41

literally turned around, garden state

8:43

silent, put headphones on

8:45

my head and had a disc man. No. Yes.

8:49

This is factual. What? And played

8:51

me. Marshall Mathers LP,

8:54

I guess. And that's your wife now. Unbelievable.

9:01

Wait, where is that person now? No

9:05

idea. No idea. Call

9:08

me. Let's

9:11

do the Rashomon of this. No,

9:14

no, but I remember her being like,

9:16

this is this M&M. I'm like showing me the CD.

9:18

So Marshall Mathers not Slim Shady. I think it must

9:20

have been the Marshall Mathers LP. No, because it wasn't,

9:22

I guess that wasn't out yet. No, it wasn't out

9:24

yet. I guess it was just a one, I think.

9:27

It came out in the year 2000, but probably later

9:29

that it was either, it could have gone either

9:31

way. It could have gone either way.

9:33

I got to listen to both those albums in full, see

9:35

if I can be transported back to that time. The

9:38

reason we're having this stroll down memory lane,

9:41

this conversation in general, is we're

9:44

wondering what's an old rapper to do, right?

9:48

Here's what I'll say about this new Eminem

9:50

song. Better suited than an old rap critic.

9:52

And who better suited? Eminem is, I believe

9:54

he's 52 years old, approximately.

10:00

Sorry. Okay.

10:02

I just, I just looked Slim

10:05

Shady is February 99. Marshall

10:07

Mathers is May 2000. So

10:10

school would have already been out in May 2000. So

10:13

I must've been Slim Shady. Okay. Okay.

10:16

Glad, glad we, glad we ironed out my, my

10:18

memory. I mean,

10:20

I was putting out this song. Here's what

10:22

I'll say. This song is not really a throwback

10:25

to those albums. This song is a throwback to

10:27

like without me or whatever, you know, which is

10:29

comes after this early

10:31

period, right? There's

10:33

a little bit early. I would say it's

10:36

Marshall Mathers into the next album. Right.

10:38

A real Slim Shady, whatever. Okay. But

10:41

it's a little like circusy

10:44

in a way that he got once

10:47

he was already famous. Right? Yes.

10:50

But I think what Eminem is doing here is

10:52

telling because we've had a lot of conversations. This

10:55

year even in light of Drake's

10:58

music, Futures music, J

11:00

Cole's music. Who's

11:02

another old rapper? Oh, Andre 3000, who

11:05

very much made not rap

11:07

music. And the question is sort

11:09

of the lingering question is what are these guys supposed

11:12

to rap about? You saw that angry tweet about Andre

11:14

playing the Atlanta jazz festival. I saw a couple of

11:16

angry tweets. Yeah. And then there was

11:18

the press release that came the other day. It

11:20

was like 30 European

11:23

jazz festivals for

11:25

Andre 3000. Yeah. Not

11:27

for me. Right. Yeah. Good

11:31

luck. Ghent is all I have to say. Eminem's

11:34

answer seems to be mature. No

11:39

thank you. You know, I'll just

11:41

do the same thing. If anything,

11:43

both new proper now returning all

11:46

the way back. Yeah. Could

11:49

he ever went fully mature?

11:51

But he went emotional recovery.

11:54

He went internal. Yes. He

11:57

was less. Sure.

12:01

He made himself his own

12:03

target. But now

12:05

it's just like, I'm gonna curse. I'm

12:08

a bigger prick than tech diabetes. Yes.

12:12

There's a lot, a lot of that, a lot of

12:14

that. That's not even a, that's

12:16

just a lame, doesn't even good. That's like

12:18

just, what is it? A homophone? He loves

12:20

homophones. The man loves hom- I've said this,

12:22

I've said this before. The

12:25

way you know a rapper is aging

12:27

is when they start to just love

12:29

homophones. Like to be fair, he loved

12:31

them when he was 20. Of course,

12:33

of course. But there's something, I mean,

12:35

Wayne, Loane and Eminem have this in

12:37

common, which is they're so obsessed with

12:40

the English language and all of its

12:42

possibility. And they've made every kind of

12:44

song you could possibly imagine had every

12:46

sort of success you could possibly imagine.

12:49

The only thing that keeps them going is figuring

12:53

out new ways to rhyme the

12:55

same words. Yeah. Or new meanings

12:58

for a word that they haven't yet placed

13:00

together or made people think about. Isn't

13:02

there a good Loane

13:05

quote talking about Eminem from, was

13:07

it from 50 rappers? Yeah. So

13:09

this is the thing. I've actually,

13:11

I've weirdly, I've had the

13:13

opportunity to interview late

13:16

period Eminem twice in

13:18

my tenure at the New York Times. You

13:21

certainly have. And I certainly have not. Which

13:25

I never thought I would say Eminem doesn't do

13:27

a lot of press. I've

13:29

been to his studio in Detroit, his

13:31

personal studio, which is just literally Eminem

13:35

stacks of like notebooks

13:38

and video game machines and

13:41

nothing else. Nobody else. You know what I

13:43

mean? Like that's just like the

13:46

thing that comes through every time you talk to him

13:48

or hear him talk about rap music is

13:51

how much he loves the art of

13:53

rapping and how much he loves words.

13:55

And yes, both Wayne

13:57

and Eminem, who I spoke to for 50 years of hip.

14:00

pop anniversary. They're

14:02

talking about syllables. They're like obsessed with

14:04

the math of English. You know what

14:07

I mean? Like how

14:09

many combined times have we spoken to

14:11

Eminem? Two of us? Yeah. I've got, I've

14:13

got two. How many you got from

14:16

before? At least three.

14:19

Fader cover. M and

14:21

50 vibe cover. And

14:24

M memoir, New York Times

14:26

piece. Wow. So at least

14:29

those three. Sure. That's a lot of Eminem.

14:31

That's a lot. We have a lot of

14:34

Eminem expertise. Yeah. And he

14:36

is quite a thoughtful guy.

14:40

Loves talking about art. Loves talking about

14:42

art and his huge hip hop fan.

14:44

Obsessed with LL Cool J. Obsessed with

14:46

Naughty by Nature. Obsessed with name

14:49

Rakem. Start a podcast. Eminem.

14:52

Don't test him. He has

14:54

a serious radio channel. He has an

14:56

outlet. Literally start a podcast. But

14:58

I think it is a little bit

15:00

telling that this is where he had

15:02

to end up, which is essentially back

15:04

at the beginning, but with a Megan

15:06

Thee Stallion joke. And also here we

15:08

are in this era of retread

15:11

and IP and sequel and

15:14

alter ego, birth,

15:17

death, rebirth. It's

15:20

very successful. It's his most successful song

15:22

in a decade. It hit number two

15:24

on the billboard chart this week. 60

15:27

million YouTube streams. It

15:29

did like 48 or something across streaming

15:33

services, like the counted towards this chart

15:35

thing, held off from the number one

15:37

slot only by the machine

15:40

people who were absolutely

15:42

raised on Eminem. Post

15:45

Malone. I had

15:47

some help. They had some help from Eminem

15:49

in the past. But

15:53

I guess like, is this if

15:55

it's the end of Slim Shady fine, we'll hear

15:57

this album when it comes out in July. But

16:01

then what? Like, is it really the end of

16:04

Eminem? Or can you

16:06

just keep making new jokes

16:08

about R Kelly and Megan

16:10

Thee Stallion and the fact that there's

16:13

an R Kelly joke that trans transgender

16:15

cat? Yeah. Yeah. Um,

16:17

okay. Before we get into

16:19

the big picture question, can we just talk on a

16:21

micro level? Does anything I

16:24

agree. I think the song is

16:27

okay. Yeah. As a songs

16:29

passable Eminem song. Uh,

16:31

good AI. It's good. So no

16:33

version of an Eminem song. Uh,

16:35

but does, do any

16:37

of these lines hit like

16:40

genuinely hit, uh,

16:43

no, like not one. Uh,

16:47

I don't think they're groaners. They're all

16:49

groaners. Yeah. It's like four minutes of

16:52

groaners. Does it make

16:54

you think differently about successful Eminem

16:56

songs of the early 2000s? No,

16:58

because I think like that was a, a

17:00

child's introduction to groaners. You know what I

17:02

mean? It was like a middle schooler. Yeah,

17:05

sort of. I

17:08

mean, it's not dissimilar from that,

17:10

you know, like on Napster, I would download

17:12

the jerky boys and Eminem. You know what

17:14

I mean? Like, and you two can have

17:16

a podcast. It's

17:20

like, that's that, that was the audience then

17:23

and I think it might be the audience

17:25

now. Okay. So who is this audience? Because

17:27

there are a lot of, obviously there's a,

17:29

it's huge. Whoever the audience is, it's huge.

17:31

Who are these people? Are they people who

17:34

have been writing with Eminem? They're as dedicated

17:36

to em as juggalos are dedicated to ICP.

17:39

Like it's that it's, or do you think it's new

17:41

people who are like, I've heard about this

17:43

guy and now I get to

17:45

live it. I think it's adolescents and

17:48

cause we saw this, we see this

17:50

every generation. Think about odd future lessons

17:52

or think about odd future being obsessed

17:54

with the midwest emo and Tenacha and

17:56

Eminem. I think

17:58

it's adolescents and people tap. into their

18:01

adolescence. I have

18:03

heard from multiple adolescents, M

18:06

and M heads, like lifelong fans

18:09

who are like, oh yeah, that's good. What kind

18:11

of group chat? I've got a lot of group

18:13

chats. You really do. It's dark that you have

18:15

a group chat for M and M heads. True.

18:18

Wow. That's true. What's the M and M stands?

18:20

What are the, what are, besides stands, like what

18:22

are, is there? He invented, I mean

18:24

that's, he did invent it. It's true. It's like,

18:26

it's basically, I guess,

18:29

arguably, arguably it's NAS,

18:31

but, but M

18:33

and M solidified it.

18:35

Yes. Yes. What

18:38

are M and M stands called? They're

18:40

called Stan. Yes. These, the titular Stan.

18:43

It's just Stan. A

18:45

million people, all just

18:47

one Stan. Yeah. Why

18:49

is this coming out now? What

18:52

is the utility of it? Because I'm trying to think

18:54

of it in relationship to

18:57

whether it's other pop comebacks, other

18:59

things that are happening with what we're

19:02

talking about in this segment, which are rappers of

19:04

a certain age. It doesn't

19:06

actually feel explicitly connected to any

19:08

overt movement in either of those

19:10

spaces. It really feels like it's

19:13

like a cult figure. It's just like a

19:15

new MERSBO just dropped killer, except it's

19:18

having to happen. It's like 50 million

19:20

people who care about it. It's

19:23

unreal. It's, he's really is, I mean, even

19:25

going back to where you started this conversation

19:27

where he sort of existed on this island

19:29

of, oh, people can appreciate hip

19:31

hop who don't listen to hip hop. Like M and

19:34

M is a genre unto himself. He is a

19:37

universe of one. He is for

19:40

M and M fans. Like

19:42

there's not, like there's not, which is why

19:44

it makes sense. Like can't

19:47

really imagine the song on the radio. Like

19:49

that's actually where I think it faltered on

19:51

the charts, which is the Morgan

19:53

law and in post-modern, I played on the radio. So you

19:55

think it's not on, I mean, there's no, no hip hop

19:57

station really would play it probably. So maybe in the midwest.

20:00

Yeah, you could imagine it sometimes

20:02

but it's like it's jar

20:04

it would be jarring right anything fun

20:06

You think blacks would play it? Yeah, no,

20:09

I do not think on 97 is

20:11

playing them and I'm song a lot

20:13

You know, maybe is he 100 like

20:15

yeah, maybe but just because the people who

20:17

are programming it like remember Yeah, it's

20:19

like a like muscle. Yeah. Yeah You

20:24

saw the concert with Jelly

20:26

Roll and trick-truck First

20:31

of all, it's

20:33

out of high jelly roll also

20:36

trick trick the the

20:38

culmination of the trick-truck arc playing

20:40

at Michigan Central Station in honor of

20:43

a Ford

20:45

and co-innovation campus

20:48

sure not sponsored not no. No all of

20:51

those were during air quotes I

20:55

Mean, you know first of all

20:57

in that concert lineage of Detroit

20:59

heavyweights But with

21:01

a lot of stuff missing Eminem the sort

21:04

of unannounced guest This

21:06

is tough. It was tough tough watch not

21:09

great. I think he's really hard for

21:11

him to hang it up I think it's like he's

21:13

a Rap

21:15

Tom Brady, you know what I mean? Like like I said, like

21:17

he can only But But

21:20

does he want something different? Now

21:22

than he wanted 10 or 15 years ago It

21:25

seems like he wants a little more relevance because

21:28

we were thinking about the last Eminem album. Yeah

21:31

came out January of 2020 Music

21:34

to be murdered by like maybe

21:36

like a surprise release even predicted covet

21:39

I mean it just a lot

21:41

of things were swallowed into that hole

21:44

two months later, but like This

21:47

this album might as well not exist have

21:49

there been tick-tocks with like young people listening to

21:51

Eminem for the first time I

21:54

need there's got to be if there aren't there have

21:56

to but I also think pleasure people come out of

21:58

the womb Knowing the words to lose yourself. Okay,

22:04

but if relevance is really what he's going for,

22:06

why doesn't he follow the example

22:08

of another great lyrical rapper with

22:11

another somewhat vexing new

22:13

song and you know the word I'm

22:15

about to say, send the

22:17

kids in the other room because we're about to

22:19

talk about Grippy. She like my kick

22:21

game, and when you mean you don't kick game, I

22:23

put her for a road and nick game. Now she

22:25

in my phone with a nickname. It's, it's,

22:28

it's, Grippy. Grippy,

22:30

Grippy. I

22:35

call her that because it's drippy. She thinking the hip, she a

22:37

hippie, and she's thinking the lift. She gonna lick me. This is

22:39

a new song from J Cole with,

22:43

oh, you love this. You love this move. This

22:46

is because this is the other option. This is

22:48

the other. And it's like, what are those, what

22:50

are those kids up to? What's

22:52

cash Cobain doing? This is okay.

22:54

So the thing that we know about J

22:56

Cole and we've known this for a long time is J Cole

22:59

loves rapping about sex in

23:03

uncomfortable ways. I'm talking

23:05

about dreams. I'm talking planes with

23:07

Jeremiah, one of the most infamous

23:09

verses in modern history. So

23:12

much so that there are versions of the song

23:14

that are like planes without the J Cole verse.

23:18

Um, why is J

23:20

Cole not allowed to

23:22

be sensual sensual or

23:26

explicit? Who's drawing these distinctions?

23:28

We allowed to say strictly

23:30

dickly on this podcast too

23:32

late, too late when

23:34

I was clipping house. I was

23:36

clipping out lyrics to talk about.

23:38

I stopped at that line. Well,

23:40

we can actually, we're going

23:43

to play the beginning of the song, which is

23:45

a J Cole verse. He doesn't say a bad

23:47

word for quite a while. Are we gonna

23:49

play or do you want me to read a few ups?

23:54

Guys read a few lines. If

23:56

you want this to live forever on the internet,

23:58

then yes. Look, the

24:00

John Carmichael A.I. grippy. It's

24:03

all right. It's often right. She

24:07

sent in a flick when she hit me with

24:10

a kissy emoji. She missed me.

24:14

Cute. When she see me, she

24:16

said she got stripped me. OK.

24:19

She's going to chew on the stick like

24:21

it's Wrigley's. All right. I

24:24

got to stop you there. Does Wrigley

24:26

still make gum? Is

24:29

that is that even a temporarily correct reference? How

24:31

you know J. Cole is getting too old to

24:33

rap on a Keshko Vains song? Believe

24:36

it or not, like Ripley's. OK, you know, these are

24:38

all 1970s. These

24:41

are from before I was born. OK,

24:44

the reason part of the reason I asked about the M&M

24:47

potential of M&M TikToks of people being

24:49

like, this guy is famous. Let me check

24:51

him out and being like, what is

24:54

there are endless TikToks of

24:57

people listening to grip? Eathering

24:59

this J. Culver. Now,

25:02

look, Keshko Vain

25:04

has a very specific universe.

25:06

Sexy drill. There

25:08

is a dare I say,

25:11

a tight boundary around the type

25:13

of lyrics that work in Keshko

25:15

Vain songs when I

25:18

Spyce showed up to the Keshko Vain

25:20

party earlier this not summer

25:22

yet. Spring. I Spyce

25:24

did. Yes, for sure. Remix did

25:26

did what was expected. Wrote

25:28

a verse directly into the

25:30

theme. No problem. J.

25:34

Cole. Now, J. Cole

25:36

did the same thing. Are we not going

25:38

to grant J. Cole the grace to

25:41

try out a new style? J.

25:43

Cole pays attention to what's

25:45

happening with young rappers. It

25:49

is I have indelibly seared. It's indelibly seared

25:51

in my mind. The photo of him, the

25:53

video still of him and Lil Pump. On

25:56

the couch at J. Cole's home studio. You love

25:58

this. It's great. I mean, I was. Literally

26:00

in that studio and then like a month later. I

26:02

was like little pump was there sitting in the same

26:04

place. I was sitting J

26:07

Cole cares about young people, you

26:09

know, he wants to look out he wants to be a

26:11

responsible older authority

26:13

figure Yes, this

26:16

is him and he also wants to be

26:18

like his authority and he also wants to

26:20

be like I See

26:22

how you young guns are partying like he

26:24

wants to do both He wants

26:26

to both be at the party and then

26:28

shiny from being at the party. Yes Can

26:32

you really I

26:34

leave those parties now And

26:38

so I'm I understand why

26:41

people find this verse on

26:43

this song hilarious and uncomfortable,

26:46

yeah, uh Abrarius

26:49

actually. Yeah, but I'm

26:51

not opposed to it You

26:54

I feel like I'm experiencing it on a meta

26:56

narrative Yeah, I know. Yes the amount of times

26:58

on this show that you've been like you love

27:00

Jake Cole. You're always No,

27:02

I really Post Forest

27:05

Hills Drive. Yeah, I know he's good. Mm-hmm. He's

27:07

good a lot of the earlier stuff I don't

27:09

like but I think he's good I think he's

27:12

smart and I think here's the thing especially in

27:14

the wake of Him having to

27:16

bow out of the Kendrick Drake beef, right?

27:19

Choosing to do this is actually a

27:21

return. It's the safest possible return It

27:23

doesn't get read in any it cannot

27:25

be misread. No, you can't

27:28

be like, oh you picked a side You can't be like,

27:30

oh you're gonna What

27:34

he says When

27:36

he says bleep bleep bleep bleep So

27:40

he it's actually a safe landing

27:42

place for him. I think I

27:45

also think Much

27:48

like someone else that we're gonna talk about in a few minutes Sometimes

27:51

the situation needs a little bit of leavening.

27:53

Yes, and I'm a lot of levity.

27:55

Yes, and I think Jake hole underst is playing

27:59

enough just to know that he

28:01

might having a fun time making this record

28:03

and doing this verse. He knows

28:06

that not everybody's going to read it that

28:08

way and that the conversation about it will

28:10

be part negative, but that's okay because

28:13

it's in a lighthearted way and that

28:15

will sort of like wash away the

28:18

memory of like, bro, did you

28:20

just go on stage and apologize for making a

28:22

diss record and then pull it off streaming? Here's

28:26

what I will say about Jake

28:28

hole and what he's been up to. Say the word. Grippy.

28:31

Yeah. Thanks. Okay. That's all. I just wanted you

28:33

to say it. I think if

28:36

he didn't have a track record of

28:39

speaking of groaners, super groany

28:41

sex wraps, this could

28:44

have been received slightly

28:46

differently because of the quality of it. No,

28:50

cause it's like kind of a cool move.

28:52

Like cash. Cobain is like, that's the guy

28:54

legitimately, he's hot right now. Cool. A cool.

28:57

And also good. Right. So

28:59

I think there's that, I think Jake

29:02

hole been a punching bag for a really

29:04

long time, but specifically for not being like

29:10

hip. That's like a, that's like a,

29:12

did you see the, did you see the Tik TOK

29:14

of him at the Tesla dealership? Did

29:16

you see this? So I mean like where

29:19

he's not getting recognized literally not getting, he's

29:21

like there like with a backpack and wearing

29:23

shorts and like some guys filming him being

29:25

like, they're trying to sell me as Tesla,

29:27

but they're ignoring Jake hole. Yeah. Yeah. So

29:30

yes, this is all part of the legacy.

29:32

But here's where my Jake hole defense comes

29:34

in, which is, I actually think he

29:37

did an extremely admirable job

29:40

showing what a

29:42

rapper family man who's perhaps aging out of

29:44

being on cash Cobain

29:48

records or not can do on

29:51

red leather with future, which

29:54

is I guess the closing track of we

29:56

still don't trust you. I'm

30:00

doing it wrong. Cut off all my hoes.

30:02

Now I'm only playing you in a song.

30:05

Day one, shawty been with me from the

30:07

playground. Hey now, maybe that's the reason I

30:09

was playing round. Running like a chicken with

30:11

his head cut off through the streets with

30:13

a freak slurring leather on my shoulder blades

30:16

in my old age. See the era of

30:18

my ways, but I'm still not totally over

30:20

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30:59

gave my brother a New York

31:01

Times subscription. She sent me

31:03

a year-long subscription so I have

31:05

access to all the games. We'll

31:07

do Wordle, Mini, Spelling Bee. It

31:09

has given us a personal connection.

31:11

We exchange articles and so having

31:13

read the same article, we can

31:15

discuss it. The coverage, the options,

31:17

not just news. Such a diversified disk.

31:19

I was really excited to give him

31:21

a New York Times cooking subscription so

31:23

that we could share recipes. And we

31:25

even just shared a recipe the other

31:27

day. The New York Times

31:29

contributes to our quality time together. You

31:31

have all of that information at your fingertips.

31:34

It enriches our relationship, broadening

31:36

our horizons. It was such

31:38

a cool and thoughtful gift. We're

31:40

reading the same stuff, we're making

31:42

the same food. We're on the

31:44

same page. Connect

31:46

even more with someone you care about. Learn

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more about giving a New York Times subscription

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as a gift at nytimes.com/gift. Get

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a special rate if you

31:55

act before December 1st. Does this

31:58

all seem like a million years ago? So I'm

32:01

thinking about when that came out, that probably,

32:03

that album probably came out seven weeks ago.

32:06

Seven years ago. That's

32:09

like the devil. Like I'm not like a name

32:11

five song guy with band t-shirts, but I am like a

32:13

name five songs guy with like an album that came out

32:15

six weeks ago. It's like, nope,

32:17

probably can't. To me, this

32:19

is one of the best Jake Holverses I've ever

32:21

heard. And it is about being on a song

32:24

with future. Another guy who's now

32:26

in his forties, but has not

32:28

adjusted his rapping style. And

32:31

Jake Hol, sort of doing the push and pull of

32:33

like, I'm a guy, I have a wife, but

32:36

I'm also at the club and like, man, the

32:38

future future has a lot of girlfriends. That's

32:42

literally what he says. And

32:45

he's, but he teases it out. It's like, it's

32:47

a very chance the rapper who also

32:50

has a comeback. Who

32:53

will be back. Who's we're not

32:55

going to talk about it. We'll see. We'll

32:58

see. We'll see. Maybe it's worth talking about.

33:00

I'll be sick. But you know what

33:02

I mean? It's like, it's, it's, it's grappling with

33:04

his actual place in

33:06

music. And Jake Hol is, you know, again,

33:09

much in a way, much like Drake and

33:11

maybe not that much like Kendrick. Jake

33:14

Hol does have a sense of his own

33:16

metanarrative. I think Kendrick is like, I am

33:19

the myth. Whereas Jake Hol

33:21

is like, no, I'm just a guy, but like, I understand

33:23

that there is lore and I understand that there are places

33:25

that I seem like I belong and I don't seem like

33:27

I belong. And I actually have nice enough

33:29

and talented enough that I can move pretty much in

33:31

all directions. But I understand

33:34

like where I am sharing where

33:36

the applause is louder and where the laughs

33:38

are louder, but that doesn't stop me from

33:40

moving in those places. So it's

33:42

funny that Jake Hol stole Drake's

33:44

move for returning from the

33:47

Kendrick beef because Drake is another

33:49

rapper who has worked

33:51

with Kash Cobain. There's calling

33:53

for you from, for all

33:57

the dogs. Yes. Which is.

34:00

Just a Cash Cobain song, we know that because

34:02

the reference track leaked in the middle of the

34:04

Drake beef when people were like, see, he's still

34:06

using reference tracks. And you're like, yeah, if you

34:08

ever heard Cash Cobain, you know that that's a

34:10

Cash Cobain song that he's singing and Cash Cobain.

34:12

There he is in the credits. So

34:15

Drake couldn't hop on

34:18

Grippy. No, although

34:20

he would have liked to. I

34:22

also just like why is there not

34:24

like a full Drake sexy drill album?

34:26

Could still happen. That's true. But it's

34:28

like I feel like you imagine summer

34:31

2024, 17 songs of Drake sexy drill or. Yes.

34:40

Or tell us. Yes.

34:46

What Drake actually did last week. Do

34:48

tell. So first year I

34:50

think for one last year, he wrapped over

34:52

BBL Drizzy on the sexy right album. That

34:54

was like a it was a

34:57

move. That was a very Drake thing to do. I got

34:59

a trash for you. I swear. Yeah, you think I'm

35:01

a bachelor girl, but I swear you can't get your

35:03

message, but I still break your back in the master

35:05

bedroom. I swear you sent a pick in the shorts

35:07

and I had to sing a catch like I was

35:09

there. You don't have my drinks. Sexy girl, you just

35:12

asked for me and I'm there. Also,

35:15

I think, you know, it is a very Drake thing

35:17

to do, but also just like I think what he

35:19

was kind of being was like what he was kind

35:21

of choosing to do is like, I'm just tying this

35:23

loop. I'm just like stitching

35:25

this up. Yes, there's nothing like this. Is

35:27

that a that's a BBL reference? Not

35:32

intentional. Forgive me. Just

35:35

like this is done. Whatever this is. Yeah. L.O.L.

35:38

Y'all got me. I'm BBL Drizzy. Yeah.

35:40

I got me. I hear

35:44

that you made the meme, but I

35:46

made the meme song like so. But

35:48

if that's the Pallet Clans meme song,

35:50

then what is Wagwan Delilah, the

35:53

SoundCloud record by Toronto. Snow

35:58

Day with a four. Yes.

36:01

I wonder, Lila, double date me

36:03

if you like me. Brought my

36:05

crown and for your bestie. Sorry.

36:07

He's wearing a shy steeze, not

36:09

be. It's

36:12

just too smoky in the

36:14

streets. You're looking

36:16

sweet. Oh,

36:19

don't you be acting me. No,

36:23

there's a 40 in my

36:26

jeans. So there is an

36:28

original version of this song that does not

36:30

feature Drake, although obviously it was not.

36:32

No one had heard it. Well,

36:34

Drake. Drake heard it. So

36:38

obviously, the humor,

36:40

the joke of Wago and Delilah

36:43

is using all this heavy Toronto

36:45

slang. Yes,

36:48

very popular TikTok

36:51

motif of just asking kids

36:53

in malls about Toronto neighborhoods

36:55

or girls or slang or

36:57

guys and just

36:59

hearing the specific tonal

37:01

variances of different parts of the

37:03

city. You have money and you left your moms there? You're

37:06

sick to my stomach. Anyway.

37:09

The girl with the braids. Girl with the

37:11

braids. That's classic. There's a lot of really,

37:13

really good stits. If you're on Mississauga

37:16

TikTok, I'm sure there's plenty of

37:18

good stuff. And

37:22

then Drake shows up. Or does he? Yeah,

37:25

I'm inclined to say it's him. There's a little bit

37:27

of a like, is it AI? Is

37:29

it not AI? Is it Snow

37:32

Day written? Drake voice AI?

37:34

Is it, dare I

37:36

say, Drake written? Drake voice AI?

37:38

Right, Drake playing with his own

37:41

AI capabilities. Our friend

37:43

of the pod, Kristin Robinson, at Billboard,

37:45

has an AI newsletter. Subscribe to that if

37:48

you're into that. She

37:50

sent it to some AI detector

37:54

software people. Inconclusive,

37:57

they said could go either way. Also, dude.

38:00

the plain white tea said it's definitely

38:02

AI, which means it's definitely real. Right.

38:04

Yes. There's a reaction video of plain

38:06

white teas. Hey there Delilah

38:09

writers and performers listening

38:11

to the quote unquote Drake version and

38:14

saying, Oh, there's no way that's Drake.

38:19

It's not great. It's

38:23

crazy that everybody thinks that it's

38:25

real. Yeah. Can

38:29

I just issue some instructions

38:31

for future use to

38:33

people should this happen to them? If

38:37

you are a member of a

38:40

mid 2000s white pop

38:42

punk band and

38:44

the most famous person on

38:46

the planet does

38:49

something with your song sample

38:52

interpolation, a Canadian

38:55

Jamaican accent, anything

38:58

don't look at a camera and be too

39:00

cool for it. Literally

39:03

look at your publishing checks, pay

39:05

for the college or your great grandkids and

39:07

be grateful. Smile through it.

39:10

Even if you're smiling through it, smiling

39:12

through it's true story, smiley through it.

39:15

Even if you're having a hard time internally

39:17

and you feel that somehow Drake's version is

39:19

maybe better than yours. The

39:22

fact that you're on camera being like,

39:24

Oh, I'm too cool. Like, yeah, it's

39:26

not really drip. Like, sir,

39:29

you look like a dork. No,

39:32

not the senior. Anyway,

39:36

in the future, should this happen to

39:38

like saves the day or something, you

39:40

know, God willing. Yeah. It's like, honestly

39:42

better at your funeral. I give

39:44

you a max at your funeral. That's like

39:46

the comeback. Oh, free

39:49

idea. If, if, if the boy's

39:51

watching free idea. But

39:54

yeah, be hyped. Yeah, be hyped. Don't be

39:56

whatever that was. So this song is not

39:58

on streaming services. which gives

40:01

a little credence to the... It's

40:03

on SoundCloud briefly? It's still on SoundCloud,

40:05

I think. There's like a YouTube video

40:07

that's not real. That size

40:09

lyrics. Has like 700K views. But

40:12

everyone, when this made its way across the internet,

40:15

first the conversation was, is it really Drake?

40:17

And then it was, ha ha, Drake, what a

40:19

loser, he sucks. Right? That

40:22

was the initial. As most things have been for

40:24

the past six weeks or six months. That

40:27

was the initial read because so

40:33

many people much like J. Cole, many people

40:36

do not think that Drake has the capacity

40:38

to be in on the joke. Right. Even

40:41

though being in on the joke is like,

40:43

The most trickle. Herr, Drake-ness. But

40:45

if you are inclined to dislike Drake, if you're like,

40:47

he just got out of a battle and came out

40:51

on the wrong end of it, if

40:53

that's how you feel about Drake, the

40:55

immediate thing when you hear this is-

40:57

he folded, he took the L, he's

40:59

making a comedy record. He's spiraling. Yeah,

41:01

he's out- and like literally he's out

41:04

there wearing massive pants and a sweater

41:06

tied around his neck at Adonis' soccer

41:08

game. He's at Houston, he

41:10

was in a party in Houston, wearing like

41:13

a Puerto Rico jersey. Like he's- he

41:15

doesn't seem to be spiraling. Tough to

41:17

say. But like, this is

41:20

not a spiraling move. But it's

41:22

a palate cleanse. It's not a spiral. My

41:24

question is like, is it

41:26

almost so Drake of a move that

41:29

it doesn't have its effectiveness, even if

41:31

you like that he can be in

41:33

on the joke? Like, as

41:37

somebody who just went through

41:39

this quite intense

41:43

back and forth with Kendrick Lamar, like- That

41:46

feels like it was five years ago. Also feels like it

41:48

was five years ago. I mean, is

41:51

him making light of himself, the

41:53

accent specifically, which is something that

41:55

Kendrick pointed out in the beat,

41:57

right? There's a part of Euphoria

41:59

where he's- saying, I don't like

42:01

your accents. He's making fun of some

42:03

of this exact Toronto slang that Drake is

42:05

making fun of. It is in dialogue with

42:08

what was happening between him and Kendrick. Of

42:10

course. Especially of Kendrick

42:12

saying, you putting on these costumes

42:15

is a fraudulent,

42:17

basically. And Drake

42:20

leaning doubly into that, is

42:23

this effective in any way? Other than

42:25

it being, I think, a funnier and

42:27

better song than people wanted to give

42:29

it credit for initially. It's

42:32

in the bigger picture of

42:34

Drake's strategy. Well, you know

42:36

why it's not on streaming, I think. I

42:39

think he doesn't want it to be a

42:41

hit. I think he

42:43

doesn't want it to be a radio hit. You

42:45

think it could be? I think it could be. I

42:48

think if it was, I don't know what the

42:50

publishing situation with Plain White D's, bro,

42:52

if you're watching, like if there's paperwork,

42:54

say yes. Yeah, sign it. But

42:57

I think Drake doesn't want this to be a hit. I

42:59

think he wants it to be an inside joke

43:02

effectively. Those who are paying close attention can have

43:04

conversations like this about how it does or doesn't

43:06

fit in the discourse or about how it is

43:08

or is not an answer slash update to what

43:10

he's been going through for the last few weeks.

43:15

There's a difference between that and it's

43:18

on the radio. And I

43:20

think he doesn't want that. So maybe

43:22

he didn't sign whatever it has to

43:25

be. You have to sign to have

43:27

it up on Spotify, which is

43:29

why it's only on SoundCloud. I

43:31

think Drake is winking, but taking

43:35

a step back and saying like, I'm

43:38

just letting you know that I know that you

43:40

think that I'm doing this as lame, but I'm

43:42

in charge and I'm doing it in a way

43:44

that's funny to me. And

43:46

it's just kind of for the heads. And frankly,

43:48

for the city, there's something very

43:51

obviously regional about it. We don't think

43:53

of Drake anymore as

43:55

a regional artist. We don't think of

43:57

him as a Canadian superstar, a Toronto.

44:00

superstar. He's a global superstar.

44:03

This is a regional song. This

44:05

is going back to the home team and

44:08

saying, here's one for y'all. That's

44:10

how it feels to me. But there's a

44:12

difference because if he

44:14

does sign the paperwork, if it does go

44:16

to radio, if it does end up in

44:18

the billboard top 10, there's

44:20

an accountability that comes with that. And I don't

44:23

think that that's what he's looking for here. I

44:25

agree with you. And I just want to add

44:27

one sort of subsidiary

44:29

theory, which is that Drake

44:32

also has another weird feature too.

44:34

In fact, coming quite soon. And

44:37

that's on the Camila Cabello album.

44:40

And those songs seemingly were locked

44:42

and loaded after her

44:44

dalliance with Playboi Carti at the

44:46

gas station. The main

44:49

thing driving the release of her album

44:51

later this month was going to be

44:54

basically a Drake interlude, which is

44:56

just a Drake song on the

44:58

Camila album. And

45:02

then a song with Drake. And I

45:04

think that by putting this out

45:06

in between, it made it so that

45:09

wasn't the return. That was going

45:11

to be so off topic from

45:13

the Kendrick thing and would have

45:15

been seen as its own sort

45:17

of white flag to

45:20

then just hop on a pop record, especially

45:22

after making fun of Kendrick for hopping on

45:24

pop records, that sort of thing. You don't

45:26

think that Drake is big enough that he

45:28

could tell Camila Cabello to push her album

45:30

back three months. I think that that may

45:33

have happened. There was talk that he was

45:35

going to be on a single that was

45:38

going to come out mid the Kendrick beef.

45:40

Perhaps she pivoted, put out a Lil Nas

45:42

X single instead. This has been, rumored

45:45

in the industry for these last

45:47

weeks or months that it's been. But I

45:49

think he ultimately, for

45:53

whatever reason, I don't know, contractual

45:55

or personal, opted not to remove

45:59

what was presumably

46:01

a major selling point of this album

46:03

to Drake Features. Uh,

46:05

from, he didn't rip those from her. And

46:08

that's coming in two weeks. Okay. So

46:10

we'll see. This I think is a

46:12

weird little swerve that sort of like

46:15

gives a little grace both to

46:18

Drake's appearance on the Camila Cabello album and

46:20

also the Camila Cabello album itself. Also, if,

46:22

if he's going to do a record with

46:24

Camila Camello, just do

46:26

Sabrina. Just like go

46:29

whole hog, just do Sabrina, like

46:31

just espresso remix. Mm-hmm.

46:35

I honestly feel like that could

46:37

go something to think about. Um,

46:41

okay. So M Cole

46:44

Drake. These are rappers in

46:46

there. Everybody's over 40 Drake

46:48

is, I don't know how old they

46:50

call us. Yeah. Drake is not quite

46:53

40, but he's approaching. Um, Drake's LeBron's

46:55

age. So that is Eminem is obviously

46:57

Cole and Drake of their own generation. Em is

47:00

much older, but you have also

47:02

seen these things pop up recently where

47:04

rappers of an older generation are kind

47:06

of having these crisis moments. Uh,

47:08

I felt that when I saw the common

47:11

and Pete Rock rollout included, uh, from the

47:13

block performance. Three

47:19

wise men came to visit where I've

47:21

been. They brought gifts with the South

47:23

side blend. Hennessy, the other,

47:25

a book, the street ministry, the third gave

47:27

a mirror and told me to remember the

47:30

from the block performances are increasingly getting

47:32

under my skin because they're

47:34

just playing the audio of the song.

47:36

And just with a person standing part

47:38

of the rollout. Yeah. And it's just,

47:40

uh, I would like to see a

47:42

different kind of performance. Yeah. Unfortunately, you

47:44

know, like, like you never,

47:46

I never thought you'd be like, damn, I

47:48

miss the golden era of Einer banks, you know, but

47:51

like, I'd like to see something along that one. Um,

47:54

and then there was the method

47:56

man and red man at hot 97

47:58

summer jam. and

48:01

Method Man after Summer Jam

48:03

saying, never again. The

48:07

generation gap is just too vast. Now,

48:09

I was not at Summer Jam this year. I have not

48:12

been for a few years, but I used to

48:14

cover it every year. I've been to

48:16

probably 10 Summer Jams over the years.

48:19

And Summer Jam has always been a

48:22

site of identity crisis about

48:25

New York, New York primacy,

48:28

especially in the 2010s when rap

48:31

stars were not coming from New York. So

48:33

how this Hot 97, which is the marquee

48:35

radio station here, hosts

48:37

a kind of like review

48:39

of contemporary hip-hop that actually

48:42

feels like it belongs in New York. Part

48:44

of how they do that is by having the locks

48:47

come out and do, we gonna make it. Every

48:49

year. Every year, every 20 minutes. Like,

48:51

which honestly, I'll find. I

48:54

would probably travel three out first show, that was

48:57

just that. I'd probably travel up to three hours

48:59

for that. But

49:01

this year's lineup, I noticed was

49:04

much younger and a little bit more

49:06

regionally vast. I mean, like 41 was

49:08

playing, but also 310 baby. When I saw 310 baby on the

49:11

lineup, I was like, what is happening here? This is bizarre.

49:15

Which I think has happened intermittently for the

49:17

last 10 years. Yeah, there's always

49:19

some bit, but I think the on

49:21

average, it was much younger. And the fact

49:23

that Method Red were performing and a lot

49:25

of the older New York rappers were performing

49:28

in the context of a Mr. C tribute.

49:30

So it's about someone who's passed away. Also

49:33

the shows in Long Island now, you gotta travel along. It's

49:35

like a whole thing. The

49:38

I think Method Man is ultimately correct. He

49:41

doesn't belong there. It's not

49:43

for him anymore. It's been 30 years. Yeah,

49:47

literally. A long time. I

49:49

just saw the Dream Hampton documentary. Like

49:51

you're old enough to be anthologized in a documentary

49:54

of lost footage, newly rediscovered.

49:57

That's how long you've been doing. That's how long you've been doing it. Um,

50:01

Rosenberg from on a seven said

50:03

something recently where he was like,

50:05

I think summer jam should be

50:08

the OGs should be a hip

50:10

hop tribute. Yes, it should be

50:12

a nostalgia show from the or

50:14

should emphasize nostalgia. I

50:16

don't fundamentally know that because that's a way that you

50:18

are. Your audience is going to

50:21

age out and a lot of your audience probably

50:23

doesn't listen to a nice have any

50:25

more. They probably listen to whatever the what's

50:27

the station that's like more hip hop oldies. So

50:29

yeah, 94 seven or whatever it should all

50:31

just be oldies like who's listening to the radio?

50:34

I don't think 41 fans are listening to the radio. They're

50:37

not hearing 41 even if they are listening. Well

50:39

actually no, because I have heard 41 on high

50:41

seven a couple times and it's very weird every

50:43

time. Like you're just like, what? Like

50:45

my speaker's broken right now. Um,

50:48

so anyway, uh, rappers of

50:50

a certain generation are struggling, but

50:52

isn't this what we dreamed of the

50:55

classic rock. Yeah. Like, isn't this what

50:57

we dreamed of 20 or 30 years ago? Like when

50:59

we were like, we don't know if the genre

51:01

is going to last, if it's going to sustain,

51:03

if it's going to build generational multi generations of

51:05

superstars. Now we

51:07

have, you're allowed to be around long enough to

51:09

fall off and make crazy decisions. You know, it'd

51:12

be really good on grippy method,

51:14

man. Uh,

51:18

should we listen to some vintage method man to

51:20

remind people? We have to. I

51:22

don't want to say remind people because they

51:24

probably don't know method, man. The thespian. Yes.

51:27

Uh, also good rapper. One of the

51:29

greats out of the Wu-Tang Clan, like, uh,

51:33

maybe the third

51:35

best rapper in the Wu-Tang Clan. Yeah. Fourth

51:38

on some days, second on some

51:41

days, fourth on some days, let's say third, a

51:43

solid third, uh, first album on deaf

51:45

jam 94 to Cal. Let's

51:47

listen to release yo Delce. I'll be

51:49

doing on my entity. Then I drink 40 to the memory

51:51

emotion. What's up to your town? See vicinity. What's up in

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the area? Looking

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carvana.com or download the app today to

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sell your car without ever leaving the

52:31

comfort of home. We

52:34

are back. Welcome back. It's

52:36

Popcast Deluxe. First of all, like and

52:38

subscribe, youtube.com/popcast or the QR code if

52:40

you're double screening it. It's

52:42

a great way to do. It's a great thing to

52:44

do. Honestly, you said it's a great thing to do.

52:46

I think it's a great thing to do. Like, honestly,

52:48

more screens the better. Yeah, no judge. You should literally

52:50

watch Popcast Deluxe as if you're at a sports bar

52:52

on a Sunday, like NFL Sunday. There should be like

52:55

screens everywhere. Like

52:57

and subscribe. Okay,

52:59

so our second segment has something

53:02

to do with our first segment. Yeah.

53:04

And I think it's about recapturing lost

53:07

glory. Yeah. And I think

53:09

before this morning, I thought that they would have

53:11

a lot in common. But after what happened before

53:13

we came to work today, before we came to

53:15

the office today, before

53:17

that, I was happy to do a

53:19

tight 20 on Will Smith and his career. I

53:22

got radicalized at

53:24

the cinema with you this morning

53:26

at the 11 15 screening of Bad Boys

53:30

4, Ride or Die. Sing

53:32

us a little Reba song. Reba.

53:35

Sing your favorite. I'm a

53:38

woman. I'm a strong black woman. Yeah, because

53:40

she's not black. Yes. What

53:42

you gonna do? What you gonna? I

53:45

don't know. Reba song. It's from her mixtape. I'm

53:47

going to let you burn this take off. But

53:49

I do want to talk about Will Smith and

53:51

his comeback. Just talk about Will Smith. I'll save

53:53

it for the end. No, no, go in. Okay.

53:57

So there were there were 30 minutes of trailers.

53:59

Yes. for IP movies,

54:01

you know, Marvel

54:04

franchises, big horror reboots.

54:08

I've never. I

54:11

know I'm getting old, but like everything

54:13

was so loud. You

54:16

just actually going to complain about the volume. No, no,

54:18

no. So I don't want everything was so loud. Number

54:20

two, everything is blockbuster, even

54:22

the small films, even the kind of

54:25

like psychological films are psychological blockbusters. Sure.

54:27

Um, I really felt like

54:30

a Marxist film critic, like a French Marxist

54:32

film critic in the 70s by the end

54:34

of the trailers. I

54:36

was like, like, like

54:38

literally like I was naturally vomiting

54:41

cajé du cinema, like it was

54:43

just like, was unbearable.

54:46

And I, you know, I don't see a lot of

54:48

movies period, but also don't see a lot of movies

54:50

in the movie theater. Right. Is

54:53

that what going to the movie theater

54:55

routinely is like? Because I'll go look,

54:57

I'm not trying to be like, I'm

54:59

better than going to the block to

55:02

the AMC empire, but, you know, I'm

55:04

more likely to go to the IFC

55:06

or film forum or the Angelica or

55:08

whatever. So patron of the arts. I'm

55:10

just look, I'm just an upper west

55:12

side liberal trying to navigate

55:14

contemporary cultural production. Who doesn't live

55:16

on the upper west side, but

55:19

I, I could be

55:21

sold. There were like a couple of those movies. I

55:23

was like, okay. Yeah, we're going to see trap. We're

55:25

definitely we're going to see M. Nye

55:27

Shyamalan's pop music movie. I'm going to see

55:29

it like midnight opening night. Like camp out.

55:33

Josh Hartnett heads killer. Look at

55:35

his greatest face filled

55:37

out. It's hair filled out Oppenheimer

55:40

reborn. Josh Hartnett killer. No pun

55:42

intended. So

55:44

what is going on?

55:46

Literally, like it's yes,

55:48

I literally felt like I was kept looking

55:51

at you and being like, this can't be

55:53

real. This is this literally what cinema is.

55:55

So here's the thing. I do think much

55:58

like. Much like your ads

56:01

when you're watching YouTube. Yes, of course.

56:03

Like and subscribe. The

56:06

trailers, the 30 minutes

56:08

of trailers are very much geared towards the

56:11

audience of the film that is

56:13

about to be shown. And we

56:15

were watching the fourth Bad

56:17

Boys movie. The

56:20

fourth one, the second since 2020. Wait,

56:23

can I just say, New York Times critics

56:25

pick. Bad Boys 4? Bad Boys 4. I

56:27

do wanna point out. Throwback,

56:32

a throwback to our previous segment.

56:35

Bad Boys 3, Bad Boys

56:37

4 Life, came out on

56:39

the exact same day, January 17th,

56:41

2020, that the last Eminem

56:44

album came out. The previous Eminem album,

56:46

Music to be Murdered By. Again, so

56:48

you are suggesting that Lableak

56:51

is not correct. It is the intersection

56:53

of Bad Boys 3 and the last

56:55

Eminem record that led to the COVID

56:57

and the pandemic. Just something weird was

56:59

going on. Okay. Something

57:02

weird was happening. Send it to the op-ed desk

57:04

is all I'm saying. I

57:06

will say it dampened the rollout of

57:08

IP films, movies

57:13

we've seen before, spin-offs of movies

57:15

we've seen before, sequels to movies

57:17

we've seen before, remakes, et cetera.

57:20

Dampened my enthusiasm going into

57:23

Bad Boys 4 because I

57:25

was like, why?

57:28

The answer came

57:31

to me somewhere around the three quarters

57:33

mark of the movie. Yeah. Which

57:36

is Will Smith has been promoting

57:38

the hell out

57:41

of Bad Boys Ride or Die. Yes,

57:44

distractingly so. Distractingly so

57:47

in the wake of course of the

57:49

slap, the Academy Awards,

57:53

Chris Rock, Disrespected, Jada

57:55

Pinkett Smith. We

57:57

all know what happened. Okay.

58:04

I thought that Will

58:07

Smith was doing this insane

58:09

Olympic level press tour, much

58:12

like Tom Cruise did for Mission Impossible

58:14

coming out of the pandemic. I

58:16

thought he was doing this to promote the movie.

58:19

No. He turns out he made

58:21

the movie for the press tour.

58:23

Yeah, of course. This movie,

58:25

I know, I know it.

58:27

It was 75 words in this movie. It was supposed

58:31

to exist before the slap blah,

58:33

blah, blah. I was halted, came

58:36

back around. Uh, funny

58:39

little trivia tidbit. Questlove,

58:42

when I interviewed him ahead of

58:44

the Grammys. Yes. Hip

58:47

hop 50 tribute. Yes. Said Will Smith was

58:49

supposed to make his post slap. Oh,

58:52

appearance. As part of wrapping

58:55

as fresh Prince as part of

58:57

the Grammys celebration of hip hop, but

59:00

couldn't because they had just started shooting bad

59:02

boys ride or die. Uh,

59:05

couldn't make, couldn't make it to the Grammys.

59:07

That's a moment we've missed out on. How

59:09

many days of shooting for Will

59:11

Smith and Martin Lawrence did this film require? Like one

59:14

in the car. Yeah. I was going to say like

59:16

one in the max one of them playing max

59:19

max maximum four five. I

59:22

don't think this movie ever would have been

59:24

finished or come out if

59:26

Will Smith didn't need to

59:28

once again, make himself a good Will tour

59:30

and he got it and he's

59:34

a stick. In fact, he's, he's overdone it.

59:36

He's done too much too much. He's done

59:38

too much work. Okay. So there is, look,

59:40

we're, we're a pro spoiler podcast. Uh, like

59:42

there's nothing to spoil here. There's like, yeah,

59:45

I mean, uh, they, uh, something terrible happened

59:47

and they fix it. And Martin Lawrence smacks

59:49

Will Smith. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. So

59:51

a bunch of times. Yes. And you, but

59:53

bad boy, bad boy. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Like,

59:56

like you address it. Yeah. Like he's a,

59:58

like a, like a loud doc. or something,

1:00:00

you know, like stop. So

1:00:03

yes, it's addressed. It's actually addressed much later

1:00:05

in the film. I watched, I read enough

1:00:07

coverage of this film. We're waiting for that

1:00:09

moment. Yeah, like. You only go to see

1:00:11

the slap. Yeah, and then I had to

1:00:13

wait to like the closing sequence basically or

1:00:15

just for. Actually, I only went to hear

1:00:17

the Reba MacIntyre cover of Bad Boys, Bad

1:00:19

Boys, what you gonna do? Wait,

1:00:22

is that real? Did

1:00:24

you block that out? I did kind of block

1:00:26

that out. Oh, is that what they were doing?

1:00:29

Oh. Do

1:00:32

you have like a quick like apology

1:00:34

text to Reba ready to go? No,

1:00:37

she thought it was fantastic. You

1:00:39

made a fire? Reba recorded the

1:00:42

Bad Boys song in the scene. So

1:00:44

she was like, she loved it. I

1:00:46

had pieced that together. Reba

1:00:48

MacIntyre, yes, strong woman. Catch that check.

1:00:51

Yeah, yeah, good for her. So

1:00:53

there is a slap. Yeah. There

1:00:56

are three slaps. Yeah. But

1:00:59

that is actually not the

1:01:01

signature Will Smith punishment of

1:01:03

this particular cycle. I

1:01:06

actually think the signature punishment of Will

1:01:08

Smith in this cycle comes

1:01:10

in the back half of his

1:01:13

Hot Ones episode. The

1:01:15

key to winning Monopoly

1:01:18

is the same key to winning

1:01:20

at craps. Like

1:01:23

you gotta understand the dice and

1:01:26

the probability and the likelihood of

1:01:29

the numbers that are going to come. Okay,

1:01:32

and I have a theory about

1:01:35

this. You finish, but my appreciation

1:01:37

for Will Smith is done. I

1:01:40

think everything is curdling. Yeah, I

1:01:42

don't disagree, but like what happens

1:01:44

is Will Smith shows up. I

1:01:47

think he's looking from the beginning, frankly, I think

1:01:49

he's looking a little tired. I've watched

1:01:52

him do every

1:01:54

YouTube show except

1:01:57

it's a really exhausting. How many times did he.

1:02:00

Do the Jay Shetty podcast, you think,

1:02:02

in exchange for the cameo? For the

1:02:04

cameo, which doesn't even last the entire

1:02:06

scene of the wedding. Okay.

1:02:10

I need you to be vulnerable for a second. Okay.

1:02:13

Red table time? Yeah. If

1:02:16

Will Smith was a guest on Bobcast Alux, would

1:02:19

you allow yourself to be charmed by him? Oh

1:02:22

yeah. I've been being charmed by Will Smith

1:02:24

since before I knew what being charmed or

1:02:26

Will Smith was, you know? Yeah, but like,

1:02:28

we know better. I

1:02:31

think somebody of that wattage in

1:02:33

your presence, like, can you,

1:02:36

you could show me the biggest Tom

1:02:40

Cruise, Taylor Swift, Bill Clinton, like, you

1:02:42

know, we're talking people of that, of

1:02:45

that level of charisma,

1:02:47

like put them in the room. Jason

1:02:49

Statham. Jason Statham. Put them in the

1:02:51

room with Jason Statham. And it's a

1:02:54

wrap. It's a wrap. Like, you've

1:02:57

seen it. You've been around enough famous people

1:02:59

and you've been around enough Uber famous people

1:03:01

that you know the way that they can

1:03:04

make people drop their guards. Jason Statham. I

1:03:06

like that. And I'm not immune to that. Jason Statham. I like to think

1:03:08

we'd be a little bit better. Jason Statham. You think you're immune to that?

1:03:11

Also, what do you really want out of Will Smith?

1:03:13

That's the ultimate question. Jason Statham. Okay. I want to

1:03:15

get back to hot ones, but there is- Jason Statham.

1:03:17

Does it mean apology? Jason Statham. No, no. And also,

1:03:19

like, Will Smith, yeah,

1:03:21

no more apologies. No more apologies. That's obviously part

1:03:24

of the press story is he's not apologizing. Jason

1:03:26

Statham. No, he's just not talking about it. Because

1:03:28

literally, I'm sure the press, his press team is

1:03:30

like, you literally aren't allowed to ask him. The

1:03:34

speedy interview came out. The

1:03:37

part about the speedy interview that

1:03:39

I found most striking is there's a section where

1:03:42

he's asking what Will Smith thinks the meaning of life

1:03:44

is. Jason Statham. What does Will Smith believe is the

1:03:46

meaning of life? Just

1:03:50

sit here for 30 seconds.

1:03:56

Write it up? Now

1:04:01

look at you while you're looking at

1:04:03

me. I'm trying to. It's

1:04:06

not easy though. Which whatever. It's

1:04:08

like a very Will Smithy answer. But

1:04:10

then there's behind the scenes footage filmed

1:04:13

by Speedy on his phone where Will Smith

1:04:15

is like, you're

1:04:17

asking the wrong question. It's what

1:04:19

is Speedy's meaning of life? And he's just

1:04:21

like going, he's like going in for like

1:04:24

60 seconds. And

1:04:26

I'm like, that's that guy. That's

1:04:28

the guy. Absolutely hard,

1:04:31

hard not to fold in front

1:04:33

of that person who's so on

1:04:36

all the time. Focus. However,

1:04:38

I was very struck

1:04:40

by seeing this Will Smith come

1:04:42

back to her redemption tour in

1:04:45

light of what happened before the slap before

1:04:48

the slap. If you remember, Will

1:04:50

Smith put out an autobiography that

1:04:52

was very vulnerable. Obviously, it's contrived

1:04:54

vulnerability, but it's very vulnerable, pretty

1:04:56

detailed about his upbringing and his

1:04:58

discomfort with having to be the

1:05:00

hero in his personal life, which

1:05:02

made him be the hero in

1:05:04

his professional life. That was

1:05:06

a rather tumultuous run in the late 2010s to the

1:05:08

early 2020s for Will Smith, Jada Pinkett

1:05:12

Smith, the Smith family that was

1:05:15

falling apart. The slap is the

1:05:17

end of the culmination of

1:05:19

him being frankly

1:05:21

humiliated many times over in

1:05:24

public. Yes. And it's

1:05:26

sort of low key disappointing that his solution is

1:05:28

I'm going to go back and be the

1:05:31

high wattage here. I'm going to go be Mike

1:05:33

Lowry. Yes. On camera and

1:05:35

also, I mean on the big screen and

1:05:37

also on the many small screens that were

1:05:39

sync. Anyway, to get back to

1:05:41

Hot Ones, Hot Ones has

1:05:44

become very familiar at this

1:05:46

point. You know, certainly since I wrote about

1:05:48

it a long, long time ago, it's a

1:05:51

rite of passage. Every famous

1:05:53

person has done it. It's the best late night show. Yes.

1:05:56

By far. By these literally should

1:05:58

just throw whoever's on the line. late

1:06:01

night. Who's on CBS? Just simulcast. Yeah.

1:06:03

Just literally. That's true. So,

1:06:06

um, Will Smith is on that once. He

1:06:11

looks a little tired at the

1:06:14

beginning. Looks a little, dare

1:06:16

I say, sallow a little bit. And

1:06:19

he says like right off the rip, like, I'm

1:06:21

not really that great with this stuff. Spicy

1:06:23

food. Yeah. Spicy food. Um, and

1:06:27

he's sort of like tries game. He's like, Oh,

1:06:29

fermented kimchi. Like I'm kind of into this one.

1:06:31

Okay. Blah, blah, blah. Something

1:06:33

happens around the sixth

1:06:36

or seventh wing. And he's

1:06:38

talking about his tear ducts

1:06:40

feel hot, but actually

1:06:42

like you see huge

1:06:46

puffery around his eyes, almost

1:06:49

comedic. And it may, I actually

1:06:51

wondered like, is this is the

1:06:54

fixin? Did he walk in

1:06:56

with something? But he had

1:06:58

some resin. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, is there

1:07:00

a makeup artist? He'd go to the bathroom

1:07:02

between five and six. Will Smith,

1:07:04

hot ones, conspiracies. No, but I'm with you.

1:07:07

Um, and obviously I want to believe

1:07:10

it's pure and I want to believe

1:07:12

that this is his act of penance.

1:07:14

He's like, if you're mad at

1:07:17

me, yes. Like if you think I

1:07:19

did a terrible thing by slapping Chris

1:07:21

Rock, if you think I haven't

1:07:23

had enough fun died, Chris Rock.

1:07:26

Yeah. And

1:07:30

therefore Will Smith had to put his body on the line

1:07:32

quite literally, both

1:07:34

in bad boys for and on hot ones.

1:07:37

Um, that's his ultimate. That

1:07:40

is more emotionally affecting

1:07:43

than anything that happens in bad

1:07:45

boys for certainly. That's for sure.

1:07:48

Um, and if you really wish to

1:07:50

see Will Smith suffer and actually

1:07:53

what I think it's person though. No, of

1:07:55

course. But also seeing that made me think,

1:07:57

why would anybody wish to see Will Smith

1:07:59

suffer? He's clearly suffering enough

1:08:01

and has suffered enough. Yeah, but he did

1:08:03

a handful of these things. There's the one

1:08:06

but you think it's fake. I don't know

1:08:08

if it's fake, but the whole thing Sean

1:08:10

like Sean just DM.

1:08:12

I don't think it's fake DM me. And

1:08:14

if it's if he smudged

1:08:16

his eye with a little, you

1:08:19

know, sauce on the finger. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:21

Like whatever. I don't think Hot Ones

1:08:23

was in on it, but

1:08:27

he did the thing where he was on

1:08:29

sway. He was talking about how Grandmaster Kaz

1:08:31

was the inspiration for the Fresh Prince. Yes.

1:08:34

Oh, who's there? But this is Ellen

1:08:36

DeGeneres core. Oh, there's a there's

1:08:38

a Grandmaster. Are you going to

1:08:41

surprise him to the kids? No,

1:08:43

you get the idea. Some guy, some

1:08:45

old guy. First of all, he literally

1:08:47

wrote rappers delight. Come on, man. Unbelievable.

1:08:51

Unbelievable. He did the

1:08:53

thing where you do have casual disrespect for rappers

1:08:55

who came out before Yeah.

1:08:57

No, I know. I'm a I'm a

1:09:00

I'm a you're a middle millennial. Yeah.

1:09:02

What do you think I'm supposed to do? I'm

1:09:05

the Lil Yachty of millennials. You're

1:09:09

like, Lil Yachty is 10 times the rapper,

1:09:11

Grandmaster Kaz. He

1:09:14

did the thing where he showed up to the movie theater

1:09:16

and wore a covid mask while people were watching the movie

1:09:18

and then they're all walking out and he's like, hey, did

1:09:20

you enjoy that movie? And they're like, oh my God, it's

1:09:23

Will Smith. You know, just like the whole even if none

1:09:25

of the you wouldn't have stood on business. You wouldn't have

1:09:27

stood on business. Like not that good. One guy tells him

1:09:29

it's a 10 out of 10. The

1:09:31

crazy word. Crazy word. Crazy

1:09:34

word. If Will Smith was

1:09:36

like rank it out of 10. Bad

1:09:39

Boys for rank it out of 10. What would

1:09:42

it be? Three five. Yeah. I would

1:09:44

say four. Four. But

1:09:47

a loving four. Yeah. At

1:09:50

least it was under two hours. Yeah.

1:09:52

Right. No. So even

1:09:54

if none of the individual moments in

1:09:56

this Will Smith press store were fake,

1:09:59

they add up to fakery.

1:10:02

And I think the difference as all

1:10:04

I could think about was Tom Cruise. Yeah. Throughout

1:10:07

this, obviously figures,

1:10:10

you know, we've had parallel,

1:10:12

parallel arcs. Um,

1:10:17

the difference in late period, Tom

1:10:19

Cruise and late period, Will

1:10:21

Smith, King Richard. It's

1:10:25

been a little bit forgotten. He won the Academy

1:10:28

Award. Say

1:10:30

what you will. Uh, for defending his

1:10:32

family. Yeah. That is that year's Academy

1:10:34

Award. But post like

1:10:37

the difference between this trying

1:10:39

so hard, Will Smith and Tom Cruise

1:10:41

try hardism. I think

1:10:43

they're both genuinely strange in

1:10:46

a way that I want out of my

1:10:48

movie stars. But I think the work like

1:10:50

Top Gun and the latest Mission Impossible films

1:10:52

just like wipe the floor with

1:10:55

bad boys. Absolutely. You know, and

1:10:57

it's just the

1:11:00

movie cannot withstand the

1:11:02

weight of everything that Will Smith

1:11:04

needs from it. Um,

1:11:07

this movie was almost two hours

1:11:10

long with about 17 minutes

1:11:12

of dialogue. Um, really,

1:11:15

um, three minutes of which were delivered

1:11:17

by DJ Cal. It's really

1:11:21

great. Really like a

1:11:23

good pick me up. He was the second

1:11:25

best cameo after Michael Bay, the director of

1:11:28

the original. But also why is my guy,

1:11:30

um, Kabi LeMay in this film? Like what's

1:11:32

it like? Literally.

1:11:35

Oh, and, um, John,

1:11:38

the movie ends and John goes, which

1:11:41

one was Vanessa Hudgens? I'm

1:11:45

sorry. It didn't look like Vanessa Hudgens.

1:11:47

I'm thinking first album era, Vanessa Hudgens.

1:11:50

Forgive me. You know, I'm a

1:11:52

Disney loyalist. Spring breakers happened in between

1:11:55

also a loyalist to that. But this is,

1:11:57

you know, these are Eons of bass since

1:11:59

that. Oh, Um, uh, also,

1:12:02

okay. There

1:12:04

is, I think genuine

1:12:06

rapport between the two of them between

1:12:08

Martin Lawrence and Will Smith. Um,

1:12:11

a thing that I found surprising and

1:12:13

like borderline, maybe even

1:12:15

refreshing about the Mike Lowry

1:12:18

character is it

1:12:20

made me remember how intense it

1:12:22

was to see Will Smith play

1:12:24

kind of an ass. Hmm. That's

1:12:27

not a thing that Will Smith was doing

1:12:29

in when his bad boys won 90, 95,

1:12:31

yeah, that was, that felt fresh. Obviously

1:12:36

like Will Smith as a rapper, as the fresh

1:12:39

Prince and Will Smith as a TV figure, uh,

1:12:42

is sanitized and squeaky clean. He's a

1:12:44

smart Alec, but he's not no, he's

1:12:47

not a result. He's not a CAD,

1:12:49

right? He's not a

1:12:51

sex symbol. Certainly not like prior to

1:12:53

that. And bad boys

1:12:55

is the movie where he's like, I

1:12:57

curse. I'm out here and I

1:13:00

kill people. I get women. I

1:13:03

make jokes in the middle of killing people.

1:13:05

I kill people in the middle of making

1:13:07

jokes. Uh, I'm a

1:13:09

cop, but like low key, I break

1:13:11

the rules. Like that's not, that wasn't

1:13:14

really in the Will Smith ooze prior

1:13:16

to that. I

1:13:18

actually found that return

1:13:21

in bad boys for far

1:13:23

more healing for the Will

1:13:25

Smith brand than having puffed

1:13:27

eyes on hot ones or

1:13:29

sitting down and telling speedy the meaning of

1:13:32

life, all of that stuff to

1:13:34

your point extravagant

1:13:36

contrivances, but seeing

1:13:39

Will Smith being like, you know,

1:13:41

he reminds me of reminds me of Eminem. Uh,

1:13:44

seriously, full circle. Yeah. Like it reminds

1:13:46

me of Eminem Will Smith being like,

1:13:48

I know that some of y'all think

1:13:50

that I just think unforgivable, but I'm

1:13:52

out here. I'm back in my bad

1:13:54

boy figuratively and titularly era. And

1:13:57

I'm going to curse and I'm going to say terrible

1:13:59

things. I'm going to do. some things that are a

1:14:01

little bit on the line of morality and

1:14:03

you guys are going to come

1:14:05

and shell out X million dollars and redeem

1:14:07

me. That to me was far more credible.

1:14:09

It reminds me of Eminem at the end

1:14:11

of Houdini where he's just like, what else

1:14:13

can I do? Like I'm back with my

1:14:15

middle finger. This is the guy I am.

1:14:17

It's all I really ever wanted to be.

1:14:19

And it's foolish for you to try to

1:14:21

impose something else on me. See,

1:14:24

I wish that I felt that Will Smith

1:14:26

could get the same satisfaction out of being

1:14:28

that guy. That sort of like some people

1:14:30

love me. Some people hate me guy that

1:14:32

Eminem wants to be in that the

1:14:34

character of Mike Lowry can be in bad boys. But

1:14:38

I just didn't feel like his heart was in

1:14:40

it. And I think ultimately he wants too badly

1:14:42

to be liked, which is what we see in

1:14:44

the press tour version of himself. I think if

1:14:46

anything, he like, he was

1:14:48

a little bit of a non-entity in this

1:14:50

film. Like this was Martin Lawrence's movie. Like

1:14:52

I felt like he was, I felt like

1:14:54

he was a little bit of a shell

1:14:56

even of himself. Like he didn't have like,

1:14:59

he didn't have a signature moment

1:15:02

even in this movie. Like, I

1:15:04

don't know who's to blame for that, but like

1:15:08

they're all I mean, it's a lot off

1:15:10

and it's also it's a very loud film.

1:15:12

Yes. There's so much happening to me. The

1:15:14

signature moment if there was one is actually

1:15:16

the opening scene before the craze getting married.

1:15:18

Oh no, but when you know what way

1:15:20

to yeah, when they're on the way to

1:15:22

the wedding and he

1:15:25

has to flamboyantly disarm

1:15:27

a store or someone's robbing

1:15:29

a store that to me,

1:15:31

I was like, okay, it's go time. And

1:15:33

yeah, was there a little bit of a

1:15:37

yeah, I curse. He fades into the background

1:15:39

a little as the movie goes on. And

1:15:41

I feel like this

1:15:43

was like a, this was one

1:15:46

for the fans. This was Wagwan

1:15:48

Delilah or Houdini maybe. But I

1:15:54

think that he's going to have to do something even more

1:15:58

broader than this. to really

1:16:00

be Will Smith again. Something

1:16:03

more family-friendly, something more...

1:16:07

You know, I think people have history with bad boys. Four

1:16:10

movies deep, maybe less

1:16:12

so. I don't know. I don't

1:16:14

think this gets him where he wants

1:16:17

to be. Someday

1:16:19

we will write a serialized franchise

1:16:22

movie thing, and we will make a

1:16:25

role for Will Smith to

1:16:27

be his pure self. Agreed?

1:16:30

I'm in. That's our show.

1:16:32

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