0:00

This podcast is supported by IBM.

0:02

As the cost of a data breach reaches four

0:04

point three five million dollars, cybercrime

0:06

is impacting business, the economy, and

0:08

society at large. Learn more from

0:10

IBM at washington post dot com

0:13

slash IBM dash cyber threats dash

0:15

ad.

0:18

Good morning. I've

0:22

just been to Buckingham Palace. and

0:24

accepted his majesty the king's

0:26

invitation to form a government

0:29

in his name. It

0:32

is only right to explain

0:35

why I'm standing here as

0:37

your new prime minister. This

0:40

is Rishi Sunak. This week

0:42

he became the United Kingdom's third prime

0:45

minister in

0:45

just two months. And as the child

0:48

of Indian immigrants, he's also

0:50

the first person of color in British

0:53

history to hold the office. As

0:55

he steps in on this new role, his task is clear,

0:57

stabilize the country.

0:59

After the policies of his predecessor list,

1:02

trust, sparked

1:03

economic fallout across

1:05

Britain. All I can say

1:08

is that I am not daunted I

1:11

know the high office I have accepted

1:14

and I hope to live up to

1:16

its demands. But

1:19

when the opportunity to serve comes

1:21

along, you cannot question

1:24

the moment only your

1:26

willingness. His ascension

1:29

has significance beyond the UK.

1:31

For

1:31

a generation of Indians like Cunach's parents,

1:34

His rise is seen as a powerful testament

1:37

to the South Asian experience in the west.

1:42

And

1:43

that's somebody who is also

1:45

of South Asian descent.

1:46

I am absolutely curious about,

1:49

you know, what he may or may not do.

1:51

That reflects his personal story,

1:54

and identity. You know, will he make

1:56

comments about Britain's legacy

1:58

in India? Eishan

2:00

Theurer is a foreign affairs columnist

2:02

at the post.

2:04

I think many people from countries that

2:06

used to be colonized record and want

2:09

to

2:09

see the political

2:10

leadership in London show

2:12

a bit more awareness and

2:14

atonement for

2:17

a legacy of exploitation and domination.

2:20

And

2:20

I'm not holding my breath

2:22

for Rishi Sunak to lead the way in any of that,

2:24

but it's something that I will

2:25

be watching for.

2:29

From

2:29

the newsroom of the Washington Post, this

2:32

is post reports. It's Wednesday,

2:34

October twenty sixth, I'm

2:36

Jerry Brewer. Today, we explore

2:39

who Rishi Sunak is and what

2:41

is the scent of power in Britain means. for

2:43

South Asians across the globe.

2:56

So who is Rishi

2:58

Sunak? What is his background? Rishishanek

3:00

is a forty two year old Tory

3:02

politician that is a member of

3:04

the the British Conservative Party. He

3:07

is somebody who before he

3:09

entered politics, had a very

3:11

lucrative career in finance. He was

3:13

a Goldman Sachs. He launched a hedge fund.

3:16

and

3:16

then entered the British political

3:19

establishment as something of

3:20

a golden boy.

3:26

He's somebody who is born

3:28

in Britain to a family of Indian

3:30

origin. His parents migrated

3:32

to the United Kingdom in the nineteen sixties.

3:35

along with a broader wave of migration of

3:37

people of Indian descent from former

3:39

colonies in East Africa. He

3:42

had parents who were hardworking, middle

3:44

class Britons, and emerging out of that

3:47

he excelled in his schooling, went

3:49

to Oxford, ended up going to Stanford

3:51

Business School, and came

3:54

back and sort of

3:56

rode the golden elevator up

3:58

to the halls of power in Britain.

4:02

So

4:02

we're talking about an an investment

4:04

banker, a very wealthy man.

4:07

How does he get into politics?

4:09

Well,

4:09

I think he should be stated upfront that His wealth

4:11

is not necessarily entirely self made.

4:13

It's partially also because of his wife

4:15

who whom he met in business school. Akshay Lamurti

4:18

is the daughter of a very prominent Indian

4:21

tech billionaire and Orion Morti.

4:23

And so part of their collective

4:26

wealth is based on that Indian Tech

4:28

fortune. There there is commentary

4:30

about my wife's family's

4:32

wealth. And so let me just address that

4:35

head on because I think it's worth doing because

4:37

I'm actually incredibly proud of what

4:39

my parents in law built.

4:41

My father-in-law came

4:43

from absolutely nothing and

4:45

just had a dream and a couple of hundred

4:47

pounds that my mother-in-law savings provided

4:49

him. And with that, he went on to But Richesonig

4:51

is clearly somebody from an early

4:53

moment who was close to

4:56

Tory Circle's, had an

4:58

ambitious vision of himself, and

5:00

went to the right places. He

5:02

emerged out of an educational context

5:05

the same sort of educational context that

5:07

created people like Boris Johnson, the

5:09

foreign prime minister, people like Tony Blair, the foreign

5:11

prime minister. And so he was very

5:13

much part of the British establishment and

5:15

made his way through the Tory

5:17

party. The

5:17

Sudan hasn't been a politician

5:20

for long. What's his road been

5:22

like? That's

5:22

right. As a forty two year old, he's I

5:25

think the youngest prime minister in

5:27

Britain's history for at least couple of centuries.

5:29

He only entered politics

5:31

in twenty fifteen.

5:34

The term

5:35

is he was parasuted

5:36

in by the Tory party leadership to contest

5:39

a seat in the elections

5:42

in the north of England even though he was not

5:44

from that part of the country. because he

5:46

was seen as as an interesting figure

5:47

to have within the Tory Party circles.

5:50

My parents, now a GP and

5:52

pharmacist, grew up wanting to provide a

5:54

better future for their children. And

5:56

today, I have the enormous privilege

5:58

of standing here as a member of

5:59

parliament. I owe a

6:02

great debt to our country for what it has done

6:04

for my family, showing

6:06

tolerance, providing opportunities

6:09

and rewarding their hard work, And

6:11

so he won elections there and

6:13

won of re election in twenty nineteen. And

6:16

pretty quickly, he ended up in a position

6:18

of relative prominence within the party. He

6:20

served as the chancellor of the Stryker

6:22

that's Britain's version of finance

6:24

minister. under Boris

6:26

Johnson. Growth up,

6:28

jobs, up, and debt

6:30

down. Let there be no

6:32

doubt our plan is

6:34

working.

6:37

And then his defection and

6:39

his kind of decide decision to

6:41

leave that post was kind of the

6:43

nail in the coffin for

6:45

Boris Johnson's time and power.

6:49

Was

6:51

he someone who was popular

6:53

within the broader South Asian

6:55

diaspora

6:57

before he became the prime minister?

6:59

I wouldn't suggest that he was uniquely

7:01

popular or inspirational to

7:04

South Asians in the diaspora, whether it's in

7:06

Britain or elsewhere. Of course,

7:08

Britain has quite a few politicians

7:10

on both sides of the aisle in terms

7:12

of its politics

7:12

who are of South Asian descent

7:15

If you look at sad sad Khan, the twice

7:17

elected mayor of London, he

7:19

is of Muslim Pakistani origin,

7:21

and there's a whole other list of

7:23

these sorts of figures. Cenac,

7:25

of course, also has only come to

7:27

power in an incredibly what

7:30

you could say is a pretty on democratic

7:32

process. This is an internal Tory

7:35

party process

7:36

of selection that elevated

7:38

him to the leadership

7:39

post of the party and therefore

7:41

made a prime minister. He was not

7:43

somebody who has been elected by

7:45

the British public in any meaningful

7:48

way. nor is he somebody who

7:51

sort of banked, you know, countless

7:53

votes from people of South Asian descent.

7:55

You

7:55

mentioned he's in the Tory party.

7:57

He's a conservative.

7:59

Where does he land on the political spectrum?

8:02

His current pitch, as

8:04

far as we can tell, is that he is

8:06

a bit less ideological and a bit more

8:08

sober minded than his

8:10

recent predecessor, Liz Truss.

8:12

be somebody who is preaching a kind

8:14

of much more guarded

8:17

approach to fixing the

8:19

tremendous economic prevails

8:22

facing Britain. We'll

8:24

see where that goes. He is a less

8:26

a fair conservative. He was somebody

8:28

who was sympathetic to the project of

8:30

Brexit that is

8:31

breaking in the UK free from

8:33

the European Union. Despite

8:35

the challenges, in the long term,

8:37

I believe the agility

8:39

flexibility and freedom provided

8:42

by Brexit would be more valuable in

8:44

a twenty first century global

8:46

economy than just proximity

8:48

to a market. He's somebody

8:50

who has a vision of

8:52

Britain that is very

8:54

much in keeping with the kind of

8:57

Union busting, neo

8:59

liberal

8:59

project associated with say somebody

9:01

like Margaret Thatcher. Oh, to ask you, who's

9:03

been the best ever leader of the conservative

9:05

and why her conservative party and why?

9:07

Who would you pick? I did

9:09

probably well, from Margaret Thatcher.

9:11

Why?

9:11

why which delivered multiple election

9:14

victories and changed his country for the better.

9:16

And he will

9:16

now take the mantle of the what's

9:19

left of this rather tattered

9:21

tory project of Brexit, and

9:23

try to pitch a future for

9:25

Britain where there's less

9:27

regulation, where there's greater growth,

9:30

we'll see how he goes. I think a lot of

9:32

analysts expect that he has his

9:33

work cut out for him. Okay. So

9:35

let's walk back for a second. Remind us

9:38

what

9:38

happened with Liz Truss that made

9:40

her tenure so short, and led

9:42

to Tsunak taking over. Well, that's

9:44

right. Liz Truss had a forty

9:47

nine day tenure as prime

9:49

minister. She replaced prime

9:51

minister Boris Johnson, who was

9:53

the last prime minister to be

9:55

actually elected via a general election in

9:57

twenty nineteen. It's basically very

9:59

difficult to talk about British politics. without

10:01

talking about Brexit. Take

10:04

yourself back to twenty

10:06

sixteen, the then conservative

10:08

government of David Cameron offered

10:10

A referendum as part of its bid to

10:12

win reelection previously said

10:15

that, okay, we've seen that there are a lot of

10:17

you especially on the right in the

10:19

UK. who want to leave the

10:21

European Union will offer a random referendum

10:23

about it, and let's try it. Now I think

10:25

people like David Cameron and then a whole other

10:27

constellation of conservative politicians did

10:29

not expect the pro Brexit

10:31

crowd to win, but they did. Tomorrow

10:33

we will wake up

10:35

in

10:35

a free country

10:37

with a glorious future,

10:40

and we can be confident

10:42

dashing with the world's

10:44

fifth largest economy.

10:48

And

10:48

Britain's

10:50

politically and economically have been dealing

10:53

with the fallout of that

10:55

ever

10:55

since. The

10:58

process for negotiating over

11:00

Brexit has led to all sorts of divisions

11:02

within the Tory party then

11:04

the pandemic made

11:06

someone like Boris Johnson a very polarizing

11:08

figure. And so a kind

11:10

of cascading series of scandals forced

11:13

him out. earlier this year.

11:15

Liz Truss comes in and

11:17

she comes in with a

11:19

rather ideological set of cabinet

11:22

ministers. and puts forward a

11:24

uniquely damaging policy

11:26

plan, a mini budget, that

11:28

promised to slash

11:30

taxes for the super rich. I

11:32

will deliver a bold plan

11:34

to cut taxes and

11:36

grow our economy. I

11:39

will deliver on the energy

11:41

crisis dealing

11:41

with people's energy bills,

11:44

but also dealing with the long term

11:46

issues we have on energy

11:48

supply.

11:49

That led to a huge market

11:51

reaction and a complete loss of

11:53

faith within the party. And so

11:55

eventually, she was forced out. And so now

11:57

Sunak comes in to pick up the

11:59

pieces. So what is Sunak's

12:01

political vision for the UK? Well,

12:03

his vision, we'll see what happens in the

12:05

coming days and what he puts forward. in

12:07

his new proposals as prime minister.

12:10

But what we do know is that he is somebody who

12:12

styles himself very much as a kind of banker

12:15

technocrat. He's seen by some as

12:16

a kind of Emmanuel Macron figure that

12:19

is the French president who's very friendly

12:21

towards

12:21

the interests of finance

12:23

and capital. And, you know, when you think about

12:25

Brexit, when you think about the politics

12:27

animating Britain or especially

12:29

animating the conservative

12:31

movement in Britain, On one hand, there is a

12:33

kind of nativist streak to it.

12:35

This idea that Britain was put

12:37

upon by Europe, welcoming too

12:39

many foreigners, etcetera. And

12:41

on the other hand, there is this vision of a global

12:44

Britain, free of the

12:46

European Union, that charged its

12:48

own course. And I think Cenac is

12:50

a relatively capable propagator

12:52

of that second vision. This idea

12:54

that London can become a kind of Singapore

12:56

on the thames a deregulated,

13:00

economically

13:00

powerful,

13:01

and independent nation

13:04

by itself. And whether that's

13:06

actually

13:06

possible, we don't know. And I one would have

13:08

reasons

13:08

to doubt that. But Cenac will

13:11

be

13:11

clearly a kind of propagator for

13:13

that vision of Brexit future.

13:15

Sunak is in the first person of

13:17

South Asian descent to lead a European

13:20

country.

13:21

So why does there feel like

13:23

there's more significance to

13:26

him leading the UK? You're

13:28

right. Britain is not the first European

13:30

country to have this precedent. Portugal's

13:33

current prime minister is Antonio

13:35

Costa, someone of Indian origin, and

13:37

then you have in Ireland, Former

13:39

prime minister and soon to be next prime

13:41

minister, Leo Vardkar. And so

13:43

Britain is only the third country in

13:45

this wave of Indian global

13:47

domination, if I may say so. But

13:49

of course, in Britain, there's

13:51

a

13:51

greater symbolism to this.

13:53

Why do I say that? For

13:56

two centuries or for the better part of two

13:58

centuries, Britain dominated the

14:00

Indian subcontinent. Much

14:02

of the wealth that drove the

14:04

industrial age in Britain was in

14:06

part siphoned from the

14:08

Indian subcontinent. The generations

14:11

of people from South Asia have

14:13

grown up with a kind of British and political

14:15

culture actual footprint, whether it

14:17

is the laws or the political

14:19

systems that shape their societies to

14:22

the language that elites in

14:24

these countries still speak, including,

14:26

say, my family, to

14:28

things like cricket and

14:29

the obsessions we have over that.

14:32

and to any a number of other ways in which

14:34

the legacy of Empire still lives

14:36

on in former colonies.

14:39

and to see somebody like Rishi

14:41

Sonak, the child of immigrants

14:43

who themselves

14:45

come from a story that kind of

14:47

hugs the Coattails Empire. Their

14:49

migration from India to colonies

14:51

in East Africa to the Britain was

14:54

a story created by the British

14:56

Empire. in many ways, to see

14:58

someone like Sunak, now

15:00

being greeted by the monarch of

15:02

Britain, has a a great deal

15:04

of meaning and symbolism. I think perhaps even

15:06

more so for people in South Asia than

15:08

among British South Asians themselves.

15:11

What's also pretty important is the

15:13

fact that Sunak himself is a

15:15

religious Hindu makes no bones

15:17

about practicing his faith. He

15:19

swore his oath of office to

15:21

parliament in twenty nineteen, holding

15:23

a copy of the bug with Gita And

15:25

something right now, especially in a context

15:27

in India where you have, for

15:29

better or worse, a political establishment dominated

15:32

by the Hindu nationalist right.

15:34

that's something that is very much celebrated by many

15:36

Indians. You should think of it also in

15:38

the context of South Asian Americans

15:41

in politics here. There's a

15:43

clear difference between someone like

15:45

Rishi Sunak and say, people

15:47

like Nikki Haley or Bobby Jingdow. These

15:50

are former GOP presidential

15:52

hopefuls. both of Indian

15:55

background who presented

15:57

a kind of derazinated image

15:59

of themselves to appeal to

16:01

what they presume was their a right wing

16:03

conservative base in the United States.

16:05

Rishi Sonae did not have to do that

16:07

and never would have done that.

16:13

After the break, what kind of impact

16:15

can Cenac make as a prime minister?

16:17

We'll be right back.

16:31

This podcast is supported by

16:34

IBM. IBM is addressing the

16:36

cybersecurity talent shortage by

16:37

teaming up with twenty historically black

16:40

colleges and universities to help them

16:42

establish cybersecurity leadership

16:44

centers, giving students in

16:46

faculty access to IBM training,

16:48

software and certifications at no

16:50

cost. Learn more at IBM

16:52

dot com slash impact.

16:59

So

16:59

here in the US, it feels like

17:01

a moment

17:02

loosely similar to two thousand

17:04

and eight when obama ran

17:06

for president. But is that a fair

17:09

comparison? Is the UK

17:11

having

17:11

its own Obama moment,

17:13

if you will? It's a really interesting

17:15

comparison. and you have

17:17

many people saying it. You have,

17:19

say, the president of the Hindu

17:22

temple, where Sunak grew

17:24

up attending. saying this is our great

17:26

Barack Obama moment. And for

17:28

many Indians in the

17:30

diaspora, it does feel like a

17:32

really wonderful moment of triumph of representation. I

17:35

think there are some interesting

17:37

ways in which it diverges. And

17:39

I think there

17:41

are some important differences when

17:43

thinking about the Obama analogy.

17:45

First of all,

17:47

race has not been the

17:49

defining kind of conversation point

17:51

around Richeson X rise to power

17:53

as it perhaps was, say, around

17:56

Barack Obama's. far

17:58

more important, at least in terms of the British conversation,

18:01

is his wealth and kind of accrued an

18:03

amassed privilege over recent years. He's

18:05

somebody who is a hedge funder who went Goldman

18:07

Sachs. He's somebody who

18:09

is seen as a figure of

18:11

a certain kind of wealthy establishment.

18:14

he and his wife are believed to

18:17

be worth some eight hundred thirty

18:20

million dollars. That's a

18:22

fortune that per sum calculations

18:24

is greater than that of what

18:26

Queen

18:26

Elizabeth had before her

18:29

death. So it's a

18:31

significant sum. and it raises questions about his

18:33

interests, about his ability to relate to the

18:35

British public. And, you

18:37

know, more

18:38

scandalously, There was a whole controversy

18:40

around the fact that it appeared that his

18:42

wife was not paying

18:44

full taxes on her wealth.

18:46

even while he was

18:48

the Finance Minister of Britain and in charge

18:50

of the agency that collects taxes.

18:53

So that has figured in the British

18:56

conversation, I would say, as much

18:58

as whatever his cultural

19:00

identity may be. Now

19:02

in the months to come, that may change. You know,

19:04

his identity may matter more in the

19:06

months to come in the same ways in which

19:08

a backlash to Obama

19:11

over the years of Obama being in power

19:13

was in part sparked by

19:15

racial resentments. directed

19:17

toward him. Yeah. So ever since

19:19

the the death of Queen Elizabeth, there's

19:21

been this renewed

19:23

conversation about the UK's relationship

19:26

with its former colonies.

19:28

How does Sunak fit into

19:30

that equation? I think on one hand, he

19:32

reflects a really happy vision of

19:34

the British

19:35

Commonwealth. someone who

19:36

is a champion of, say, the project

19:38

of the British Commonwealth can say,

19:41

look, someone like Richesonak rose

19:44

up from

19:45

relatively humble middle class

19:47

origins to take the top political post

19:49

in the country, and it really validates

19:52

the

19:52

wonder of our multicultural

19:54

society and by extension

19:56

the multicultural Commonwealth

19:58

that existed because of the British

19:59

empire. You know, there's still a debate

20:02

over how the average British person

20:04

is not taught the realities

20:06

of the British empire and and

20:07

some of its

20:08

misdeeds in the past. I

20:11

have a hard time imagining someone like Sunak,

20:13

really changing the precedence here.

20:15

He represents a party that

20:17

is very triumphalist about

20:20

the empire. and I can't imagine

20:22

him, especially with as narrow a mandate

20:24

as he has, wanting to

20:26

rock the

20:26

boat that much. There's

20:29

so much

20:29

we don't know about Rishi Sunak that we're

20:31

about to find out. So

20:33

what will you

20:34

be paying attention to during his

20:36

time as prime minister? I

20:38

think first and foremost, it's gonna be how

20:41

he maintains unity

20:43

over a very fatuous ruling

20:46

right wing party that is the

20:48

tories. if he can do that

20:50

and stabilize Britain's economy

20:52

and pass a number of measures that may

20:54

not be necessarily ideologically popular among

20:57

among his fraternity, you know,

21:00

measures that say extract

21:02

more taxes from oil and

21:04

gas companies to help offset inflation

21:07

costs, and so forth, then

21:09

it would be really

21:11

a a mark of a a

21:13

very pragmatic and

21:15

probably ambitious politician who

21:17

sees himself as somebody who can both

21:20

successfully steer his country out of

21:22

a political and policy

21:24

mess while also wielding enough

21:26

control in charisma to keep

21:28

his party in check. But that's gonna be a very

21:30

tall order for him. and so that's the thing we have

21:32

to watch, and that's probably the only thing that

21:35

matters.

21:37

On a lesser note, and that's somebody who

21:39

is also of South

21:41

Asian descent, I am absolutely

21:43

curious about, you know,

21:45

what he may or may not do. That

21:47

reflects his personal

21:49

story and identity. You know, will

21:51

he make comments about Britain's legacy

21:53

in India. Will he talk about

21:55

things that Indian nationalists want to hear?

21:57

Say the repatriation, of

21:59

looted diamonds that now sit in the tower of

22:02

London or I think many

22:04

people from countries that used to be

22:06

colonized by Britain, want to

22:08

see the political leadership in

22:10

London show a bit more awareness

22:12

and atonement for a

22:15

legacy of exploitation and

22:18

domination. And I'm

22:20

not holding my breath for Rishi Sunak to

22:22

lead

22:22

the way in any of that, but it's something that

22:24

I will be watching for. Eichan,

22:26

thank you. Thank you.

22:31

Eichan Theurer is

22:31

a foreign affairs columnist and

22:33

author of today day's WorldView, the

22:36

post daily column and newsletter on

22:38

international politics. This story

22:40

was produced by Arjun Singh.

22:44

That's it for post reports. Thanks

22:46

for listening. Today's show was mixed

22:48

by Sean Carter and edited

22:50

by Lucy Perkins. I'm

22:53

Jerry Brewer. Thank you for

22:55

letting me be your host for the last few days.

22:57

Tomorrow, I'm handing things over to my

22:59

colleague, Shane Harris. A national security reporter here

23:01

at the post. You'll be in

23:03

great hands, and we'll be

23:05

back tomorrow with more stories.

23:08

from the Washington Post.

23:14

This podcast

23:16

is supported by IBM.

23:18

Did you know that the average cost of

23:20

a data breach is more than four

23:22

million dollars and growing?

23:25

Learn more from IBM at

23:27

washington post dot com slash IBM

23:29

dash cyber threats dash ad.