0:13

It was almost a year ago now

0:15

that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi came

0:18

to Washington, came to the

0:21

White House for

0:23

an elaborately staged state dinner

0:25

that was part of a

0:28

multi-year effort by the Biden

0:30

administration to court him.

0:33

I've long believed that

0:35

the relationship between the United States and India

0:38

is one of the, will be one of the defining

0:40

relationships of the 21st century. This

0:44

is an enormous priority for the United

0:46

States. Greg Miller is

0:48

an investigative foreign correspondent for The Post.

0:51

And at this state dinner, they

0:53

pulled out all the stops. They

0:56

flew in a chef from California

0:58

to preside over a vegetarian menu

1:00

for the vegetarian Indian Prime Minister.

1:03

There were lotus flowers on all of

1:05

the tables on the South Lawn at

1:07

the White House, which symbolize Modi's

1:10

party in India. And

1:13

there was a star-studded list

1:15

of guests, including celebrities and

1:17

many of Washington's most important

1:19

players. And

1:22

almost at the same time that this

1:24

is happening in Washington, D.C., an

1:26

officer in India's intelligence service is

1:29

issuing kind of final instructions for

1:32

an assassination plot against one of

1:34

Modi's most vocal critics in the

1:36

United States. Did

1:39

it affect my life? Yes.

1:42

That's Gurbatwant Singh Panoon, the

1:44

target of this assassination attempt.

1:49

Panoon is a Sikh activist and a

1:51

lawyer. He's also a U.S. citizen who

1:53

moved here from India for college in the 90s.

1:56

We reached him in New York state and

1:58

asked him about how things have changed

2:01

for him since this attempt on his

2:03

life last year. I'm

2:06

very careful in planning

2:08

my day, where I

2:10

go, how I go, and

2:12

what public meetings and what public gatherings

2:14

I attend. And

2:17

this feeling has been following Pannun.

2:20

Today or tomorrow, India is going to

2:22

kill me. Exclusive

2:26

reporting for the Post has

2:28

now uncovered the most explicit

2:30

evidence to date showing that

2:32

India's spy agency directed this

2:34

attempted assassination. Greg and

2:37

his colleagues, both in the U.S.

2:39

and in India, have interviewed dozens

2:41

of high ranking officials, activists and

2:44

targets to uncover key details.

2:47

India has denied or tried to

2:49

downplay any connection to this assassination

2:51

plot, but our reporting

2:54

really shows that India was

2:56

very deeply involved in these operations, both

2:58

in the United States and Canada. This

3:01

reporting is coming out as

3:03

Modi campaigns across India, seeking

3:05

a third consecutive term. He's

3:08

made some incendiary speeches that reflect

3:10

his brand of Hindu nationalism, a

3:13

brand that sees activists like

3:16

Pannun as enemies of the state. This

3:19

juxtaposition of these events, this assassination

3:21

plot, this elaborate state dinner, this

3:23

is a kind of a fundamental

3:25

test for the United States and

3:27

for the Biden administration. It's

3:30

pitting professed American values,

3:33

which have to do with human rights and the

3:35

dignity of people and their safety against

3:38

strategic interests. From

3:42

the newsroom of The Washington Post, this

3:44

is Post Report. I'm

3:47

Elahe Izzadi. It's Tuesday, April

3:49

30th. Today, How

3:51

India Tried to Take Out a

3:53

Dissident on U.S. Soil. Greg

3:56

shares his reporting and pulls back

3:58

the layers to expand.

4:00

explain why this plot marks a

4:02

stunning development of how India operates

4:05

on the global stage. Greg,

4:11

hearing you talk about this exclusive

4:13

reporting from the Post, it is

4:15

just, in a word, it's

4:18

quite wild to me to unpack and

4:20

understand what happened here. Can you take

4:23

me through the beats of this failed

4:25

assassination attempt in the United States last

4:27

year? First of all, let's just start

4:29

with who was the target? The

4:33

target is a lawyer and

4:35

a US citizen. His name

4:37

is Grapatwant Singh Panoon. I'm

4:39

the General Counsel to Human

4:42

Rights Advocacy Group, SEEK for

4:44

Justice. He is a SEEK

4:46

activist. He is an

4:48

activist on behalf of a cause of

4:51

creating a separate SEEK state

4:54

in Northern India. To

4:56

get their separate religious

4:59

identity recognized by

5:01

India. So then what

5:03

were the details of this plan? How

5:05

did this all come together? So

5:08

the plot is set in motion in May of

5:10

2023, when

5:12

the Indian Intelligence Service hires an

5:15

alleged middleman, his name is Nikhil

5:17

Gupta, to help them hire

5:19

an assassin in the United States. Gupta

5:23

is, according to US criminal

5:25

filings, an accused Indian

5:27

drug and weapons trafficker. Someone

5:30

who has done some work with

5:32

the Indian Intelligence Officers in the

5:34

past. They see Gupta as somebody

5:37

who can help them find an

5:39

assassin to kill Panoon in the

5:41

United States. Gupta,

5:44

in turn, makes contact

5:46

with somebody he believes is

5:48

a drug and weapons

5:51

trafficker already in the United

5:53

States, according to the US

5:55

charges in this case. That's

5:58

not exactly... who this individual

6:01

is. It turns out that the person Gupta's

6:03

been in touch with is secretly an

6:06

informant for the Drug Enforcement

6:08

Agency in the United States.

6:10

So this plot has a problem

6:13

from the very outset. The

6:15

Indian government doesn't realize this at the

6:17

time. It only becomes clear later on.

6:20

So, so wait, the US, from

6:23

your telling, it sounds like they are

6:25

in on what's brewing here that someone

6:28

has planned a hit of someone on

6:31

US soil. So when did the US

6:34

government realize the extent of this assassination

6:36

plot? So as this is unfolding in

6:38

June, it takes a while for the United States

6:40

to piece this together. It does

6:42

not happen while Modi is at

6:44

Washington. It does not happen while

6:46

he's at the state dinner. In fact,

6:49

at that point, the United States

6:51

sees this as a weird drug criminal

6:53

case as somebody trying to arrange a

6:55

hit in New York in

6:57

connection with some the operations

6:59

of some criminal syndicate. They don't

7:02

necessarily see at that time that

7:04

this is in fact, in operation

7:07

being spearheaded by the Indian

7:09

intelligence service. That's not something

7:11

they really, really understand

7:14

until Gupta's in custody. They have his

7:16

devices and they have a lot more

7:18

evidence showing that he is doing the

7:21

bidding of the Indian spy service.

7:24

So Greg, you had mentioned the

7:26

Indian intelligence service. Can you tell

7:28

me more about what that looks like? Who is

7:30

that and what do they do? So

7:33

the research and analysis wing is

7:35

India's main foreign intelligence service. They're

7:37

equivalent of the CIA. Reputationally,

7:41

it hasn't been very well thought of for a

7:43

long time. I mean, not a player

7:46

in Europe or the United States

7:48

or North America. Under

7:50

Modi, that's kind of changed. We've

7:52

got more resources, become more aggressive

7:55

and been kind of deployed in

8:00

desperate, including and especially

8:02

against Sikh activists

8:04

and Sikh extremists around the

8:06

world. And so then Greg,

8:08

can you talk me through how you and

8:11

your colleagues have been able to verify that

8:13

this is what took place? Yeah,

8:16

so, you know, for starters, there is

8:18

a criminal case here. The

8:21

middleman, Nikhil Gupta, has been charged

8:23

with being part of this murder

8:25

for higher conspiracy. The

8:27

bigger questions surrounding this have been

8:29

all along, how high does this

8:31

go in the Indian government? And

8:34

so that's where we have focused all of our

8:36

reporting. What we did was,

8:38

through interviews with current and former officials

8:41

in India, in the United

8:43

States, and in other countries,

8:45

work to identify who was

8:47

working with this middleman and

8:49

who, within the Indian government,

8:51

in Modi's inner circle, was connected

8:53

to these operations. So

8:56

how high did this go? Who did now?

8:59

That's a question that I think US

9:01

intelligence and law enforcement agencies are

9:03

grappling with even now. And

9:06

the answer is complicated. There

9:08

is evidence, direct evidence, that

9:11

an officer in India's intelligence

9:13

agency was responsible for

9:16

orchestrating this assassination plot in the

9:18

United States. He's not

9:20

named in the US indictment. He's referred

9:22

to only as a co-conspirator.

9:24

We were able to, through

9:27

sourcing and interviews, identify that

9:29

co-conspirator as Vikram Yadav. So

9:32

you have this mid-level intelligence

9:34

officer in India's spy service directing

9:37

this operation from India. How

9:40

high it goes beyond him gets more murky.

9:45

US intelligence analysts looking at

9:47

this plot, they have

9:50

assessed that the head of the

9:52

Indian intelligence service authorized

9:54

these operations. This is somebody named Samat Goel.

9:56

He was the head of India's spy agency

9:59

at the time. The time. Us

10:02

by agencies have assessed more

10:04

tentatively with slightly less confidence

10:06

that Modi is National Security

10:08

advisor. A sheet of all

10:11

also likely knew about these

10:13

operations, at least the idea

10:15

that India's spy agency was

10:17

going to be pursuing and

10:20

try and kill sick activists.

10:22

Outside India we tried to reach

10:25

of all and go well for

10:27

the story. Called them repeatedly, send

10:29

messages to them repeatedly got no

10:31

response. We ask the Indian government

10:33

to reach them and they never

10:35

responded to any of our requests.

10:40

The. Trick is United States The officials that

10:42

we've talked to. Acknowledge that

10:45

they don't have smoking gun

10:47

proof. Of their direct

10:49

complicity in this plot. These are

10:51

analytic assessments that Us agencies have

10:53

reached based on their understanding of

10:56

this plot, how the Indian system

10:58

works in the extraordinary and likelihood

11:00

that mid level people within the

11:02

Indian Intelligence service would advance the

11:04

plot with so many risks without

11:07

cover from the very top. And.

11:09

By the way, we also in India

11:11

spoke with. Current. And former specials

11:14

of their government and of the Indian

11:16

Intelligence Services who are aware of The

11:18

Spot have direct knowledge of this operation,

11:20

this assassination attempt, and they confirm everything

11:23

that we've learned from the sources that

11:25

we've talked to in Western governments including

11:27

the United States. I

11:30

have a lot of questions about the

11:32

United States government's involvement and knowledge about

11:35

this, but I want Before I get

11:37

to that, I am curious if we

11:39

already just sat back and think about

11:41

targeting dissidents abroad. This. is

11:43

something that i've heard just you know

11:46

by reading the news and paying attention

11:48

to what our colleagues reports that other

11:50

determine still i'm aware of you know

11:52

those sorts of attempts by russia and

11:54

iran and other countries is this an

11:56

escalation on the part of india is

11:58

this in the norm or does the

12:01

signal something distinct or new about the

12:03

Modi government? I think

12:05

that this is an alarming escalation, and

12:07

it tells us something very significant about

12:10

the Modi government. Now,

12:12

India for many years has

12:14

been accused of, suspected of

12:17

carrying out lethal operations,

12:19

kidnappings in and

12:22

around India, especially on the border

12:24

regions of India and Pakistan. The

12:27

idea of India launching

12:29

an assassination plot, not

12:32

only in a Western government, but in the United

12:34

States, I think that's what

12:36

has stunned Western security officials more than

12:38

anything else here. I

12:41

did want to understand more about why

12:43

Modi's government in particular would be targeting

12:45

Sikhs at home and also globally and

12:47

in Canada and the United States. What's

12:50

at the root of that? So I would say there are a

12:52

few things there. One is that this reflects

12:54

a mindset that took root in the 1980s when there

12:56

was a great deal

12:59

of violence in Northern India. Many thousands

13:01

of people were killed in

13:04

insurgencies and in crackdowns

13:06

by the Indian government against

13:09

Sikhs who at the time were

13:11

trying to establish a separate state,

13:13

much the way that Pakistan was

13:15

partitioned and became a Muslim state.

13:18

There were huge events during this

13:20

period. The Indian government

13:22

stormed and took over the most

13:24

holy site in the Sikh religion

13:26

at one point and Sikh

13:29

militants responded with the assassination of

13:31

Indira Gandhi, the prime minister at

13:33

the time, with the downing

13:35

of an air Canada flight within

13:38

a few months after that. So

13:40

this was an intense, intense fight.

13:43

Where it stands now is that

13:46

Sikh nationalist movement has

13:48

largely dissipated. There

13:50

really is no meaningful threat In

13:53

India of having Sikhs establish a separate

13:55

state or carving off a big chunk

13:57

of India for themselves. Woody

14:00

and many of the members of his

14:02

inner circle. Source: Came of

14:04

age during that time. Their experiences

14:06

in their understanding of threats to

14:09

India are defined by their experiences

14:11

from that era. So. They

14:13

still sort of heaven. And

14:15

and what many Western people

14:17

I've talked to describe as

14:19

a disproportionate. Almost obsession

14:22

with. To. Seek Activists. They just

14:24

can't let go of this. I had

14:26

been. Designated as a

14:28

terrorist by the Indian government.

14:31

From Twenty Nineteen and Twenty

14:33

Twenty they declared seek suggested

14:35

as the unlawful not of.

14:38

In addition, The

14:40

have an issue do are a lot on my

14:42

head. So. This what was happening

14:44

in June are what happened a year

14:46

before. That on what is happening right

14:49

now is not a surprise to me.

14:52

But. There's there's another factor here as

14:54

well, and is probably just as

14:56

important as a political one. Modi,

14:58

of course, came to power carry

15:01

the sort of flag of Hindu

15:03

nationalism that Hindus have a special

15:05

place in India, that followers of

15:07

the Hindu religion the dominant religion

15:09

in India, or it's most important

15:11

people and so there is political

15:13

advantage for Modi. To. Kind

15:15

of demonize. Followers. Of other

15:18

states and to cast himself as the

15:20

protector of the eighty percent of India

15:22

that is that is in do. You

15:25

know it's interesting Greg because I feel

15:27

like especially in recent weeks as there's

15:29

an election in India. There has been

15:32

attention on some other rhetoric that Modi

15:34

has, especially around Muslims in the country

15:36

and the supporting around how sick activists

15:38

have been targeted at. It's raising that

15:40

thread of it for me and it

15:42

also reminds me of the news that

15:45

came out and I believe it was

15:47

also last summer of the shooting death

15:49

of a Sikh activists in Canada And

15:51

questions around Moody's government's involvement in that

15:53

Can you just remind us. Of what

15:55

happened, there's. Your suggest almost at the same

15:58

time that Modi said the White House. same

16:00

time that this assassination plot is

16:02

unfolding in the United States. A

16:04

separate Indian assassination plot, also carried

16:06

out by the Indian Intelligence Service,

16:09

is happening in Canada near Vancouver,

16:11

where one of the largest Sikh

16:13

populations in the world exists outside

16:16

India. A Canadian named

16:18

Khardip Singh Nizhar was

16:20

killed, gunned down, shot

16:23

dozens of times as he was

16:25

driving away from a Sikh temple

16:27

in British Columbia. Over the past number of

16:30

weeks, Canadian security agencies

16:32

have been actively pursuing credible

16:35

allegations of a potential link

16:38

between agents of the government of India

16:41

and the killing of a Canadian

16:43

citizen, Khardip Singh Nizhar. That's

16:46

the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

16:49

And he's stepping forward and accusing,

16:52

essentially accusing India of being complicit in

16:54

that plot. He's pinning this on

16:56

the Indian government in a very public way. The

16:59

involvement of a foreign government

17:01

in the killing of a

17:03

Canadian citizen on Canadian soil

17:06

is an unacceptable violation

17:08

of our sovereignty. It

17:11

is contrary to the fundamental rules

17:13

by which free, open

17:15

and democratic societies conduct

17:18

themselves. The Canadians go on

17:20

to expel the top-ranking

17:22

intelligence, Indian intelligence officer

17:25

from Canada. This is

17:27

a very direct confrontation between the

17:29

Canadian government and the Indian government

17:32

over an assassination that happens in Canada. And

17:34

what the Prime Minister is saying there is

17:36

like a really fundamental point. He's

17:39

talking about this is a violation of

17:41

Canadian sovereignty. This is a

17:43

country of laws. There are

17:45

ways that countries are supposed to interact

17:47

with one another. Sending

17:49

hit teams into other countries is

17:52

not how any of this is supposed to work in

17:54

the global order. Craig, what has

17:56

the Indian government said in response to

17:58

these revelations of... this attempted assassination

18:01

in the United States and also what Justin

18:03

Trudeau has said? Almost nothing.

18:05

Modi has been asked about it only once

18:07

or twice and has been very dismissive and

18:10

has basically said, well, if anybody can show

18:12

us that we did something wrong, of course,

18:14

we'll look into this. We're a nation of

18:16

laws. We want to follow the rule of

18:18

law. That's what matters to us. And

18:21

the Indian government in private with

18:23

US and Canadian officials has been

18:25

at times defiant and saying, look,

18:27

you guys are at fault here.

18:29

You're the ones who are sheltering

18:31

people we consider terrorists. And

18:33

then as this crisis sort

18:35

of progressed, kind of changed tone

18:38

a tiny bit and said,

18:40

OK, fine, we'll do our own

18:42

internal investigation. You tell us

18:44

what you have. Let us know everything you know,

18:46

and we'll look into this and we'll get back

18:49

to you. And that's kind of where things stand

18:51

now. They

18:53

know that there will not

18:55

be any consequence if they come and shoot

18:57

Pannu down. It

19:00

means nobody will care even if they would have killed me.

19:02

What would have been the consequences except for

19:05

my campaign? Is

19:07

the US going to stop trading with India? Is

19:10

the US going to put some sanctions against

19:12

India? After the

19:14

break, why the Biden administration isn't

19:17

hitting back harder against India for

19:19

trying to assassinate a US citizen

19:21

on American soil? We'll

19:23

be right back. I

19:42

want to go back to

19:44

this particular failed assassination attempt

19:46

and how it was foiled.

19:48

And in your telling of

19:50

it, it was an agent of the

19:52

DEA. You know, the US government essentially

19:54

stopped it, is what it sounds like.

19:57

And so I'm trying to understand where

19:59

does the United

20:01

States stand within this because on the

20:03

one hand they are actively

20:06

it sounds like you know

20:08

maybe covertly trying to thwart

20:10

these attempts on the US

20:12

citizen but on the other

20:14

hand I haven't heard this sort of

20:16

tough talk from President Biden

20:18

that maybe I heard in that statement

20:21

from Justin Trudeau the Canadian Prime Minister.

20:24

You're exactly right the United States

20:26

approach has been very different from

20:28

the Canadian approach. The United States

20:30

has tried to contain this crisis

20:33

has focused on avoiding a

20:36

bigger rupture with India.

20:39

India is too important to the United

20:41

States strategically to burn up the whole

20:43

relationship over a failed assassination plot

20:46

as bad and as this was and

20:48

as frightening as this was. So

20:50

the United States has been trying to

20:52

prod India behind the scenes but

20:54

hasn't done anything so far to

20:57

punish India. Hasn't expelled any

20:59

Indian intelligence officers, hasn't put

21:02

any financial sanctions on Indian

21:04

government officials, has taken

21:06

no steps to penalize the Indian government

21:08

at least not yet. Can

21:10

you say more about why they appear to

21:13

be holding back? What is it about this

21:15

relationship that makes it so important that the

21:18

government the US government wouldn't be willing

21:20

to risk torpedoing it completely over

21:22

this? So there's a longer answer

21:24

and there's a shorter answer. The shorter answer is so

21:26

short it's just one word and it's China. It

21:29

is concerned about this dawning era

21:31

of global competition in which Western

21:33

governments are very concerned about competing

21:36

with China, about what China's intentions

21:38

are, what China's capabilities are and

21:40

so the United States and

21:43

other US allies see

21:45

India as an important democratic

21:48

partner in this

21:50

competition with China and they don't

21:52

want to push India away.

21:55

They want India to remain on

21:58

the side of democracy. If

22:00

anything, they would like to draw

22:02

India closer into Western relationships and

22:04

Western cooperation. And so that

22:06

is really what's driving the United States

22:09

calculations in terms of how to

22:11

respond to this assassination. Are

22:13

they operating anymore as a democracy

22:15

as we would think of it? Yeah,

22:18

no, I think that people increasingly talk

22:20

about India. There's all these

22:22

new terms that come up, right? So we're

22:24

talking about transnational repression here, which is the

22:27

broader framework for our story. Where

22:30

countries pursue their adversaries in

22:32

other sovereign territory. But

22:35

India, I think a lot of experts now

22:37

talk of it as a hybrid democracy, no

22:40

longer as an

22:42

inclusive democracy, right? You have lots

22:44

of questions about the fairness of the elections

22:46

that are underway right now. In

22:49

Modi's tenure, a great deal

22:51

of new troubling authoritarianism.

22:54

India has become stronger economically, has a

22:56

lot more clout, but is far, far

22:59

more authoritarian. Journalists get jailed.

23:02

News organizations are expected to kind

23:04

of support Modi and his

23:06

party or pay the price. And

23:10

activists, critics, you know, this is

23:12

a government that will take extraordinary

23:14

steps to silence them. India

23:17

is the following the footsteps of the authoritarian

23:19

regimes and they have proved it that

23:22

they are willing to kill US

23:24

citizens on US soil for

23:26

their activism, for having a dissenting political

23:29

opinion. Even though this

23:31

assassination, this plot was botched, it

23:34

just sort of exposed terrible tradecraft

23:36

on the part of India's intelligence

23:38

service. In some ways, it

23:40

will have accomplished what it was intended

23:42

to accomplish, which is to

23:44

make Sikh activists look over their

23:46

shoulder, Sikh activists wonder, could

23:49

I be next? Am I safe?

23:52

Should I be doing what I'm doing? And

23:54

basically, this has a chilling effect on

23:57

anybody who is critical of

23:59

the Modi government. In many ways,

24:01

this has played to Modi's

24:03

political advantage. We talked about

24:06

how an election in India is underway.

24:09

Modi is widely expected to

24:11

be headed toward a huge triumph, a

24:14

huge victory, a very comfortable victory. In

24:17

a very, very recent campaign event,

24:19

Modi literally talked about how

24:21

this is a new India. This

24:24

is a stronger India. We are now tough guys.

24:27

We are not going to be able to

24:29

fight this. Modi,

24:33

in his own words, says, this new India

24:36

comes into your home to kill

24:38

you. They're not

24:40

apologizing for any of

24:42

these operations. To the contrary, his

24:45

status as a strong man has

24:47

only been strengthened by the

24:50

idea that he and his

24:52

government are willing to do

24:54

things that other governments in India's history did

24:57

not. And so what has

24:59

happened to the people who U.S. officials allege

25:02

were behind orchestrating this assassination attempt

25:04

in the United States? Do we

25:06

know what's happened to them and

25:08

where are they? Yeah, that's

25:10

a good question. So there are

25:13

two important players here. You have

25:15

this Indian intelligence officer named Vikram

25:17

Yadav. He's the person behind this.

25:19

He's the one who's in control of it from

25:21

India. But as soon as this whole plot

25:24

unravels, he kind of disappears. Then

25:27

there's Nikhil Gupta. And he was the

25:29

middleman who was enlisted to

25:31

help find an assassin in the United States.

25:34

So Gupta remains, even now, the

25:36

only person publicly that we know

25:38

of who's been charged with a

25:40

crime in association with this entire

25:42

assassination scheme. His lawyer,

25:45

whom we spoke with for this story, insists

25:47

that his client is innocent. His family insists

25:49

that he is innocent, not guilty of this

25:51

crime, and that this is all a case

25:53

of a mistaken identity. And

25:56

then Greg, I can imagine, given

25:58

this sort of... balancing act

26:00

that the Biden administration, the US government

26:02

is trying to walk in regards to

26:04

its relationship with India that now that

26:07

this That this reporting is coming

26:09

out and it's public and you and your colleagues

26:11

have uncovered it What

26:13

has the administration said to you about

26:15

it? And is this throwing

26:17

a wrench and complicating? You know, they don't

26:19

do they not want this to become public?

26:23

You know something happened in this story That was

26:25

a little strange to me as we came closer

26:27

to publication And it kind

26:29

of gave us an additional sense of just how

26:31

nervous the white house has been about this And

26:34

how concerned the white house is about

26:36

the potential to harm the relationship with

26:38

India they Just in the

26:40

last several days We learned that the

26:42

white house had actually warned the indian

26:45

government that the washington post was close

26:47

to publishing some important

26:49

new revelations about this

26:51

case including identifying The

26:53

indian intelligence officer who was

26:56

directly connected to the assassination

26:58

plot I haven't had that

27:00

happen that I know of in my

27:02

career in many many years of covering

27:04

national security both in washington and overseas

27:07

For the white house to give the modi

27:09

government a heads up Was concerning

27:12

to some of us at the post, but

27:14

it tells you how how concerned the white

27:16

house is about protecting

27:18

that relationship wow And

27:22

then just looking ahead what what

27:24

will you be looking to as

27:26

these revelations come public and and

27:29

Also within this relationship the way

27:31

these attempted targeting killings play into

27:34

it So there's two parts

27:36

of that question. I think one is So

27:38

does exposing this does the fact

27:40

that india really screwed up here

27:42

got caught Trying to carry

27:45

out an assassination in the united states And

27:48

was exposed by this will this

27:50

prompt kind of a retreat on

27:52

their part will they peel back

27:54

will they rethink? How aggressive they

27:56

become operationally in going after seek communities

27:59

in the United States and Canada and

28:01

other places. It's hard to

28:03

know. I mean, I can't imagine that they

28:05

would be eager to try to carry out

28:07

another hit in a Western country. But

28:10

one of the things we've learned from this case was that

28:12

they had a list. They had a list that

28:14

was perhaps seven or eight deep

28:17

of others that they were hoping to kill

28:19

once they took care of the noon. The

28:21

other thing is just sort of how does India

28:24

resolve this in its relationship with the United States?

28:26

I think everybody we talked to believes they're

28:28

gonna have to sacrifice somebody. They're

28:30

gonna have to- Like someone has to take the

28:33

fall. Yeah, somebody has to take the fall in

28:35

some way. Perhaps that ends up

28:37

being the former head of their intelligence service who

28:39

has already stepped down from his job. But

28:42

there's reasons to think they might hesitate to do that. The

28:46

thing to remember here is that Modi

28:48

and his government, they feel like they

28:50

have the leverage in this relationship with

28:52

the United States. India

28:55

maybe was treated as a second

28:57

tier country for a

28:59

long time. I don't think they see themselves that

29:01

way anymore. And I don't think they're

29:03

interested in tolerating that kind

29:05

of mindset. And

29:08

Greg, where does this all leave people who

29:11

could be on that list you mentioned, the

29:13

people who could be targeted by the Modi

29:15

government? Yeah, well, I

29:18

mean, so we know of many

29:20

other people, many other Sikhs in the

29:22

United States and Canada who privately have

29:24

been given warnings by the FBI or

29:27

by Canadian authorities. Look, you

29:29

might be targeted, you might be in danger.

29:31

You should know, you should be careful. One

29:34

of the bigger issues here is that when

29:37

you look at this and you step back,

29:39

you see India, which now

29:41

is the world's most populous

29:44

country, the world's largest democracy,

29:47

engaging in conduct that we in the

29:49

West normally associate with the world's sort

29:51

of most repressive regimes, Russia,

29:54

Iran, North Korea, Saudi

29:56

Arabia, India's decision,

29:58

apparent decision, in this case

30:01

to pursue actions

30:03

that are associated with those

30:05

kind of autocratic authoritarian governments

30:08

is really troubling. But

30:10

in reality, it's part of a broader trend.

30:14

Authoritarianism, autocracy,

30:17

nationalism, these are trend

30:19

lines that are rising in

30:22

many places around the world, including,

30:24

some might argue, in the United

30:26

States. And what

30:28

these political developments bring with them

30:31

is more behavior like this. Less

30:33

tolerance for dissent, greater

30:36

willingness to use the tools

30:38

and levers of power of

30:41

countries to pursue adversaries,

30:43

to silence critics. And

30:45

this is happening in many, many places. And

30:48

so this case spotlights a

30:50

really important thing that's happening elsewhere

30:53

in the world. And

30:55

it also makes me think about how

30:57

to, governments like this, these

31:00

dissidents, from their perspective, pose

31:02

just as much, if not maybe more

31:04

of a threat, when they're abroad than

31:06

when they're in their own home country. Right.

31:10

And there are other compounding factors

31:12

that help to explain that. So

31:15

it used to be dissident or

31:17

diaspora populations were out of sight,

31:19

out of mind. They were abroad. They

31:21

were far away. What was happening

31:23

there didn't matter so much

31:25

to the governments that they had fled. But

31:28

now, because of social media and

31:31

spyware, these activist

31:33

populations in Vancouver, Canada,

31:36

can continue to agitate and continue to

31:38

attract the attention of governments half a

31:40

world away, like in India. And

31:44

there's an enormous challenge for countries

31:47

that have refugee populations

31:49

or exile populations in

31:52

trying to protect them. With more

31:54

governments willing to try to silence

31:56

them, pursue them, harass them, surveil

31:58

them, It creates

32:00

a new burden for countries

32:02

that are open to the

32:05

arrival of exiles and distance

32:07

and people like this and trying to keep

32:09

track of them and protect them. It's a

32:11

big job. Did

32:16

I feel that I'm

32:19

not safe in America? Safety

32:22

is a relative term right now. I don't know

32:24

how to define whether I'm safe or I'm not

32:26

safe. The only thing I can volunteer

32:29

is that I'm not going to stop.

32:36

Well Greg, thank you so much for joining and sharing

32:38

your reporting with us. Thanks so much for

32:40

having me on. I really appreciate it. Greg

32:43

Miller is an investigative board correspondent for

32:45

The Post. There

32:50

are two other big stories I'm watching today.

32:53

First, the judge overseeing former President

32:55

Trump's hush money trial in Manhattan

32:58

has found Trump in contempt for

33:00

nine violations of the court's gag order.

33:03

This stems from comments Trump made about

33:05

the trial in true social posts and

33:07

in his campaign materials. Judge

33:09

Juan Machan issued a $9,000 fine and

33:11

warned Trump that if he kept violating

33:13

the order, the judge would consider

33:16

putting him in jail for the violations. And

33:19

the second story, pro-Palestinian protests

33:21

on college campuses are escalating.

33:25

Now in Columbia University, students are being

33:27

suspended for refusing to leave a campus

33:29

encampment. Then this morning,

33:31

student protesters declared that they've taken

33:33

over a campus building. Meanwhile,

33:36

79 people were arrested

33:38

in Austin related to protests at the

33:40

University of Texas campus there on Monday.

33:43

Authorities said almost all were charged with

33:45

criminal trespassing. Across the country

33:48

now, there have been over 1,200 arrests at

33:50

these protests over the last two weeks. That's

33:53

according to tracking by The Washington Post. That's

34:02

it for Post Reports. Thanks for

34:04

listening. Today's show was produced by

34:06

Emma Talkoff. It was mixed

34:08

by Ted Muldoon and edited by Monica

34:11

Campbell. Thanks to Peter Finn,

34:13

Jerry Shi, and Ellen Nakashima.

34:18

There's one other thing I wanted to call your

34:20

attention to. This is something that I have found

34:22

super useful in my work as I'm trying

34:24

to read all of the great reporting on

34:26

The Washington Post's website. When I

34:29

don't have time to read something, I

34:31

listen to it. Almost every article The

34:33

Washington Post publishes has a little headphone

34:35

icon on it. So if you just

34:37

go to the top, you can click

34:39

on that and you will sometimes either

34:42

hear the reporter or columnist or a

34:44

computer-generated voice reading the article for you.

34:46

And now we are serving up those audio

34:49

articles every day for you to listen to

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in Apple Podcasts. This

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feed in Apple Podcasts is a special

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offering for subscribers of The Washington Post.

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All you need to do is search for The

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if you've not subscribed, just

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head to washingtonpost.com/subscribe. I'm

35:09

Elahe Izadi. We'll be back tomorrow with

35:11

more stories from The Washington Post.