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0:16

Hey. It's Martine. A quick message

0:18

before we start today's show, you may have noticed

0:21

I am handing over the hosting reins

0:23

for a few weeks while I'm off on a reporting

0:25

trip. working on a story that I'm so

0:27

excited to share with y'all. Until I'm

0:29

back at the end this month, you'll be hearing from

0:32

my official new co host, Alahi

0:34

Azadi, as well as a whole crew of

0:36

other guest hosts from around the newsroom,

0:38

bringing you the most interesting and insightful

0:40

stories of the day. Today,

0:42

we've got reporter Shane Harris on

0:45

tap. You know him, he is a great

0:47

friend of the pod and we're so excited to have

0:49

him as a guest host. With that, enjoy

0:51

the show.

0:53

Is it

0:53

tough for you as a reporter and also person

0:55

having to live in all of this to, like, separate

0:57

those things? Well,

0:58

I recently

1:01

moved in with a roommate into

1:03

a rental to save

1:05

a little bit of money and I sometimes

1:07

look around the house and think that I would never be

1:09

able to buy it. So and

1:11

friends

1:12

are certainly asking, you know, when they'll be

1:14

able to have shot at buying a house

1:16

and I don't have any good answers for them.

1:21

Rachel Segal covers federal reserve in

1:23

the economy for the post, which means that

1:25

for months now, she's been covering

1:27

the Fed's fight against inflation and how

1:29

that's showing up in mortgage rates.

1:32

Today, we learned that the average rate for

1:34

a thirty year fixed mortgage, the most

1:36

popular home loan, crossed seven

1:38

percent for the first time in twenty

1:41

years. That means

1:43

it's going to get even more expensive

1:45

to buy a home. And unfortunately, Rachel

1:47

says, this is just the financial reality

1:49

Americans are gonna to deal with until

1:52

inflation is under control.

1:54

We've heard a really unflinching message

1:56

from the Fed, which is that getting inflation under

1:58

control is priority number one.

2:00

and they have made very clear that they are doing

2:02

that. Really at any cost,

2:05

their argument is if we don't get inflation

2:07

under control now, we will have to

2:09

swing that much harder to get it back down

2:11

in the future, and they

2:13

aren't really showing any signs of letting up anytime

2:15

soon. From the newsroom

2:17

of the Washington Post, this is post reports.

2:20

I'm Shane Harris. It's

2:22

Thursday, October twenty seventh. Today,

2:25

mortgage rates are the highest they've been

2:27

in twenty years. Rachel

2:29

is gonna tell us what that means for the housing

2:32

market. Also, why

2:34

it's going to be even harder to buy a house?

2:36

Well,

2:36

at least for now.

2:41

So

2:41

in real terms, what does an interest

2:44

rate like this mean for someone who wants to go buy

2:46

a home today? Well,

2:47

it means that that same house is a lot more

2:49

expensive and the exact

2:51

numbers might depend on how much

2:53

for a down payment. You can put down

2:55

how much the house costs overall. There

2:58

are some buyers who are able to pay cash.

3:00

but what it really means is that the

3:02

same is much more expensive

3:04

than it would have been a couple of months ago

3:06

or even a year ago. if

3:07

you're somebody who was thinking two months ago,

3:10

I'm about ready to go buy a house. That decision

3:12

may be on hold indefinitely now.

3:14

Yeah,

3:14

that decision might be off the table.

3:16

It might not be as attractive

3:18

an offer, even if it was your dream home,

3:20

you might be doing the math and thinking that

3:22

a couple extra hundred dollars

3:25

really just is not something you can swing.

3:31

Alright.

3:31

So let's think this through with some real

3:33

numbers just for a second to try and figure out what this

3:35

means in real terms. So let's

3:37

say you've been looking for a house and

3:39

a few months ago when mortgage rates were

3:41

around three percent you could afford

3:43

a four hundred thousand dollars house. So

3:45

you plan to put down twenty percent

3:47

of that amount, which is eighty thousand

3:49

dollars, and then you'd get a mortgage.

3:52

In other words, you're gonna borrow the rest.

3:54

you're gonna borrow three hundred twenty thousand

3:56

dollars. You would then pay that back

3:58

over the next thirty years

3:59

with an interest rate of three percent

4:02

or somewhere around there. So maybe you'd

4:04

be paying thirteen hundred dollars a month.

4:06

Now with the interest rates at seven

4:09

percent, you probably wouldn't be

4:11

able to afford that four hundred thousand dollar house

4:13

anymore. Because at a seven percent

4:15

interest rate, your monthly payment, it

4:17

just spiked to more than twenty

4:19

one hundred dollars a month. for

4:21

the same house. So

4:23

you then might have to look for a two hundred

4:25

fifty thousand dollar house to keep that

4:27

same monthly payment of thirteen

4:29

hundred dollars. and that might mean you

4:31

have to give up on the house or the neighborhood

4:33

that you wanted or not buy

4:35

a house at all right now.

4:40

I mean, I remember when I bought my home eight years ago,

4:42

and we got a four percent rate. And

4:44

my parents saying, you have no idea

4:47

when we were your age, you know, the rate was eleven,

4:49

twelve. I mean, I've here even sort of as high as eighteen

4:51

percent. I mean, putting this in perspective,

4:53

I mean, this is a big pinch for people right now,

4:55

but our rate still historically very

4:58

low? Or do we need to stop thinking about

5:00

them in terms of that historic low that we've

5:02

enjoyed for so many years?

5:03

Rates still are historically low and

5:06

whether it's your parents or my parents or

5:08

others, they likely paid a

5:10

much

5:10

higher mortgage rate for their house.

5:12

But it's hard to click into

5:14

that mindset if you are shopping for a

5:16

home for the first time or if everyone

5:18

that you know bought a house when rates

5:20

were much lower over the past couple of years.

5:22

Putting

5:22

this in the context of what's behind the

5:24

rate increase, right, is the Federal Reserve

5:27

and its efforts over the past several months

5:29

to raise interest rates in order

5:31

to cool down the economy and try

5:33

and tame inflation. So what

5:35

effect has that had on the housing

5:37

market? Well,

5:38

the Federal Reserve does not set

5:40

mortgage rates specifically, but it does

5:42

set its policy rate, which is called the

5:44

Federal Funds Rate. And

5:47

that is a very broad

5:49

based, somewhat blunt tool

5:52

that is really the feds only tool in

5:54

its toolkit to slow down the economy

5:56

to cool inflation.

5:57

When it changes that rate, which

5:59

it's done five

5:59

times this year, It trickles

6:02

down and has all of these ripple effects through the rest

6:04

of the economy and affects all

6:06

different types of lending and spending and

6:08

borrowing. and mortgage rates are extremely

6:10

sensitive to anything that the Fed does.

6:13

So as the Fed has progressively raised

6:15

interest rates and done it very aggressively

6:17

this year, there's been a huge run up in mortgage

6:19

rates that happen quite quickly too. And

6:21

it

6:21

sounds like they're just tracking that Federal

6:23

Reserve rate sort of one leads the

6:25

other.

6:26

they're tracking and it also means that they're

6:28

not stopping anytime soon. The

6:30

Fed is on track to

6:32

hike rates two more times this year,

6:34

including once more next week. by

6:36

another aggressive jump. And the expectation

6:38

is that if seven percent feels

6:40

steep now that we might look back

6:42

on it in a couple of months and it won't be that

6:44

high after all. So traditionally

6:46

when these mortgage interest rates go up, we

6:48

think of prices for houses coming down

6:50

and they've been very high. We live in the DC

6:53

area, but they're very, very high. So are we

6:55

seeing places that are being hit hard by this where the

6:57

market is being depressed prices are coming down

6:59

because of the rates going up? We

7:00

are seeing it and we're seeing it in a few

7:02

different ways. home prices

7:05

are starting to cool really all over the

7:07

country, including in big hotspots

7:09

that saw this huge run up at home price

7:11

growth over the last couple of years.

7:13

We're starting to see builders pullback.

7:16

Builder confidence was down for the tenth

7:18

straight month in October. There's

7:22

refinancing applications are way down, demand

7:24

for mortgages are way down. You

7:26

know, there's more interest in adjust label rate mortgages.

7:28

All of these ways in which we see

7:31

buyers start to pull back that

7:33

also has the effect of boosting supply.

7:35

There are more houses that you might be

7:37

able to find if you decide to shop around

7:39

or houses that stay on the market longer

7:41

than when there was this frenzy

7:43

if

7:43

people scooping up houses as quickly as they could.

7:46

Are there places where the real estate market

7:48

is still really hot and it seems kind of impervious

7:50

to this increase? there

7:51

are still places and and, you know, it's

7:53

sort of a reflection of how hot the

7:56

market became to begin with. So

7:58

in all sorts of paltz marias,

8:00

not just DC, places like Phoenix

8:03

and Dallas and Tampa and Boise,

8:05

Idaho. The housing market just

8:07

exploded. People moved there

8:09

that housing supply was not necessarily

8:12

prepared and all of a sudden you had way more

8:14

people shopping for houses than there were

8:16

houses for them to buy. And even in

8:18

markets where we're starting to see that ease up a

8:20

bit, it doesn't mean that home prices are

8:22

now at pre pandemic levels.

8:24

They're still quite high, maybe

8:26

not increasing quite so quickly,

8:28

but there

8:28

would be a long way for home prices to fall if we

8:30

were gonna cease anything resembling twenty nineteen

8:32

or early twenty twenty. And we shouldn't expect

8:34

that housing prices are gonna drop down to,

8:36

like, where they were a decade ago. Right? I mean, it's

8:39

we're we're kind of plateauing. Is that what it seems

8:41

feels like? Right.

8:41

Realtors that I'll talk to

8:43

describe a plateau and they don't describe

8:46

a crash in the housing market. There

8:48

aren't the same types

8:48

of concerns that caused

8:50

the great financial crisis that

8:52

I'm sure is, you know, fresh and people's memories when

8:54

they think about any issues with the housing market.

8:56

But what the Fed is trying to do

8:58

is not crash the housing market,

9:00

just get prices from running

9:04

up at such unsustainable rates

9:06

that more and more people are price out and

9:08

that low rates really enable that to

9:10

happen for a long time.

9:14

So the

9:16

Fed raises its rates, the mortgage interest

9:18

rates follow. Demand

9:20

is cooling off maybe

9:22

prices are stabilizing. Does the Fed look at this

9:24

and say mission accomplished? We got

9:26

something done here that we wanted to achieve.

9:28

The Fed can point to the housing market

9:30

and say, here is an intended

9:32

effect from our interest

9:33

rates. We've been hiking rates very

9:35

aggressively. We can see that what we are doing is

9:37

starting to work

9:37

in the housing market. A

9:40

problem is that there are not all that

9:42

many

9:42

other sectors of the economy that they

9:44

can point to and see

9:46

that kind of I don't know if you'd call it

9:48

success, but see that kind of progress. They

9:50

are trying to tackle such broad based

9:52

and entrenched inflation in

9:54

so many corners of the economy and in a

9:56

lot of corners that are not as

9:59

sensitive to

9:59

interest rate hikes as the housing market is.

10:02

And the housing market is such a huge driver of

10:04

the economy. Right? I mean, it's not just the

10:06

house. It's all the appliances that go in

10:08

the house. It's the furniture. It's the

10:10

tiles. It's the everything all

10:12

this stuff that we think of, is there a

10:14

risk that by slowing down the

10:16

housing market, particularly when everyone's

10:18

worried about a recession, that we

10:20

drive quicker into a recession or make it

10:22

deeper through what the Fed is doing.

10:24

It's possible there are a lot of economists

10:26

who will tell me that housing market is a bit

10:28

of a leading indicator for where the rest of the economy

10:30

is going. And if housing enters

10:32

into a quote unquote recession, that

10:34

could pull more parts of the economy with it.

10:36

You know, you mentioned the tiles and the appliances.

10:39

That's

10:39

contractors. It's construction workers. It's

10:42

people who drive trucks all across

10:44

the country to transport tiles from one end

10:46

to the other. And all of those things

10:48

put together make up this much broader

10:50

fabric of the economy that

10:50

travels with the housing market too.

10:53

So

10:53

if the goal here is in part

10:56

to increase the supply of

10:58

housing, is there a risk that this policy

11:00

is counterproductive then?

11:01

It's tricky. Yeah. And and this gets

11:04

to the limits of what the Fed can

11:06

do. So the

11:08

Fed seeks to snuff

11:10

out demand in the

11:10

economy. They want fewer people shopping for houses.

11:13

but

11:13

they can't build houses. They can't

11:16

increase the number of houses to meet this

11:18

huge shortfall. Some economists put it at

11:20

five million single family homes if the country

11:22

is short. They can't build houses. And

11:24

if anything, raising interest rates

11:26

for a construction company or

11:28

any of these businesses that would otherwise

11:30

need to invest or spend money to build these houses,

11:32

that

11:32

becomes more

11:33

expensive. You know, it's more

11:35

expensive to build a house. You might have people who are

11:37

skittish about wanting to build a

11:39

new house. So it's a bit of a

11:41

cycle that is not necessarily all that

11:43

helpful if the goal is to get more houses built in

11:45

this country. He's one way

11:46

to think of this too that if the Fed's goal

11:49

in raising rates is to curb inflation.

11:51

Right? That's goal number

11:53

one. Is the housing market potentially

11:55

sort of an unintended casualty of

11:57

this if it goes the wrong way? And

11:59

the supply is limited and it doesn't actually

12:01

lead to people being able to afford a

12:03

house.

12:03

It could be. I think that there are ultimately

12:06

some

12:06

you know, walls

12:07

or ceilings that fed policy really

12:09

bumps up against. Another consequence

12:12

could be that if you have fewer people

12:13

who can buy homes or can afford to

12:15

buy homes

12:16

that steers them back into the rental

12:18

market. Well, there's way

12:20

too much demand for rentals rent

12:23

inflation is extremely high.

12:25

And then you have the same problem too, too

12:27

much demand, too little

12:29

supply. It's hard to build more rental apartments.

12:32

So in that way housing is a really

12:34

core issue that, in

12:35

some ways, responds to interest rate increases,

12:37

but can't be solved by the other? I

12:39

mean, the Fed doesn't sit down and think.

12:41

I mean, they understand that these are potential

12:43

knock on effects. Right? So when they make a

12:45

decision like this, do you have a sense

12:47

of do how they weigh whether

12:49

it's a good idea or a bad idea to raise the

12:51

rates knowing that it could have all these unintended

12:53

consequences? Or do they just have to say,

12:55

look, these are the only tools we have. They're big and

12:57

they're blunt, but we have to do something.

12:59

I think

13:00

it could be more the latter. the

13:04

Fed acknowledges that

13:06

interest rates are blunt.

13:08

It is the main tool that the Fed has.

13:10

And in a lot of ways, it's an imperfect tool.

13:12

And it's a tool that can cause pain.

13:15

Fed officials have warned

13:17

that in this fight to get inflation under

13:19

control, there are consequences that come with

13:21

that, and we're all waiting and

13:23

trying to keep a very close eye on what some of those

13:25

consequences might be and how painful they

13:27

are.

13:28

After the break, Rachel and I will talk about

13:30

what this means for renters. And

13:32

we're gonna hear from a man in Texas who

13:34

is trying to game out how to keep his

13:37

housing affordable with all of

13:39

this uncertain in the housing market.

13:41

We'll be right back.

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slash impact.

14:09

I asked

14:11

this next question knowing that I don't

14:13

wanna the anxiety of people who are renting and

14:15

or thinking about buying? myself. Yeah.

14:18

But, like, is this just like the toughest

14:20

place to be right now? Like, if you're renting

14:22

and you the rent could go up, but the mortgage rates are

14:24

going up and you're just like you're watching

14:26

everything so carefully. I mean, is this

14:28

it feels like renters are really in the point where they

14:31

could get squeeze the most particularly with

14:33

inflation and you're not getting any

14:35

benefit out of homeownership and you're not

14:37

getting equities. I mean, it really does feel like

14:39

renters are just in like this tough

14:41

spot. A tough

14:41

spot from from all sides, you know, whether

14:44

you're worried about your rent

14:46

very

14:46

suddenly going up when you have to renew your

14:49

lease. I've spoken with people who were suddenly

14:51

alerted that their rent was going to go

14:53

up. Five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred,

14:55

dollars just for them to be able to stay there or

14:57

their landlords were gonna sell party

14:59

because they knew that they would be able to get

15:01

much more selling the house than they bought it

15:03

for. And homeownership, you

15:05

know, is is considered in this country,

15:07

this huge economic milestone,

15:09

this huge investment in your economic footing

15:12

and future. And as that becomes

15:14

farther out of reach for people at, you

15:16

know, later stages in their lives, that

15:18

can

15:18

really carry beyond this murky,

15:21

precarious moment that we're in now. Is

15:23

this experience changing that

15:25

conventional was you think that are more people

15:27

saying, you know what? Maybe home ownership isn't all

15:29

it's cracked up to be? Howard Bauchner:

15:30

Maybe, and we might wait

15:33

and see to answer that question,

15:35

but renting is also

15:37

difficult. You're also wary

15:40

of whether

15:40

your rent is going to go up, whether you'll have to be,

15:43

well, you'll have to find a new place to move

15:45

i Rent and friends of mine

15:47

describe, you know, punting for a

15:49

rental that maybe they know is not

15:51

going to be within their budget, but would allow them to

15:53

stay close to where their job is or close

15:55

to where their friends are, close to their family.

15:57

And these are all considerations that just boil down

15:59

to being able

15:59

to keep a roof over your head,

16:02

which is becoming

16:02

much, much more expensive in this country. So,

16:04

Rachel, our colleague, Abba Bhatarai, recently

16:07

interviewed somebody who lives in the suburbs

16:09

of Austin, Texas. His name is Tim Van

16:11

Zyl, and he's a renter. and he's

16:13

going through a lot of these questions and

16:15

anxieties right now about what he needs to

16:17

do. Should he stay? Should he

16:19

buy? Should he try to stick it out? So let's hear a

16:21

bit of what he had to say. III

16:22

get, you know, like, hey, if we make things

16:24

more expensive, less people are going to buy

16:27

them. But on certain

16:29

things, we've still gotta have the housing. still gotta

16:31

be where we've gotta be and and

16:33

just, you know, the American dream people

16:35

already feel is becoming more and more

16:37

unattainable. Mhmm. And I don't know that

16:39

this helps. So there's

16:40

somebody who says, yeah, I get what the

16:43

Fed is doing. I know why they're raising these

16:45

rates. We gotta bring inflation down,

16:47

but I'm the one stuck here. Unable

16:49

to buy a house. I

16:50

think it is this reflection too of some

16:53

of what

16:53

the Fed does is is somewhat intangible.

16:55

It affects the financial markets or

16:57

it affects business investment

17:00

or types of lending or

17:02

spending that

17:02

maybe you don't experience day in

17:05

and day out. But you

17:06

do know what your rent cost, you do know what your gas

17:08

cost, you know what your groceries cost. And these

17:10

are all categories that

17:13

have become way too

17:15

expensive or much more expensive

17:17

than sustainable in economy.

17:19

And until those are back down,

17:21

any sort of, you know, push to

17:23

get them back down or any consequence of

17:25

what the Fed is doing, you are also going to feel. It's

17:27

going to feel very close to your life

17:29

in a way that might

17:30

not feel very good for

17:31

a very long time. I also heard

17:34

somewhere there's an election coming

17:36

up, and I'm sure the administration

17:38

would like to take credit for addressing

17:40

inflation as soon as possible. President Biden

17:42

clearly is keyed in on that. He understands

17:44

the vulnerability that it is for

17:46

Democrats. How long do we need

17:48

to wait to see the impact of

17:50

the Fed's most recent hike when

17:52

it comes to that all important

17:54

goal of taming inflation. That

17:56

is

17:56

really the million

17:58

dollar question

17:59

because we don't know. Interest

18:03

rates do not click in automatically. And even

18:05

though the housing market is

18:08

very reactive to them, the

18:10

way interest rates move through the economy

18:12

changes over time

18:14

and they sort of seep through the economy over

18:17

this long lag period, which

18:18

means that all of the rate hikes

18:20

that Fed has done so far and the ones that it

18:22

still has to do won't hit

18:25

fully until next

18:27

year. That could mean though that they

18:29

either hit and get in inflation

18:31

down in a way that the Fed is aiming

18:33

for, but it seems that more likely

18:35

they will slow the economy

18:37

so abruptly, not just the housing market,

18:39

but all different types of sectors that

18:42

we enter a recession and

18:44

that obviously has political consequences,

18:46

it has consequences for the way

18:48

people live

18:49

their lives every single day, and it's

18:51

a question about when we'll start to see that

18:53

really come clearer into

18:55

you.

18:57

So how should Americans be thinking

18:59

about their finances right now? Do you think we

19:01

should all be saving up for a recession,

19:04

stocking more money away? it's

19:06

so hard to give advice

19:08

in such a confusing

19:09

time. It does

19:11

seem based on expectations that

19:14

economists

19:14

have and people that I talk to that there

19:16

is a growing risk of a recession

19:18

sometime next year. It does not mean

19:20

that it would be as

19:21

severe as the recessions that maybe

19:23

are front of mind for people, the

19:25

great recession, the severity of the

19:27

COVID recession, the hope is

19:29

that if the economy does slow down or

19:31

to get an inflation under

19:32

control, that

19:34

it will not be as painful as

19:36

those times. But we don't

19:38

know yet. And if that means saving

19:40

now or not buying that

19:42

house, if it feels like it would really stretch

19:44

your budget or finding other ways to

19:47

look through your finances and

19:48

see how you're doing, that

19:51

might

19:51

be the time.

19:52

knowing that these these tools have such a

19:55

long lead time, is there a point at which the Fed

19:57

looks? Let's say we go into a recession

19:59

sometime

19:59

next year, is there a point at which the Fed says, this

20:02

is too deep. It's too much. We've got a

20:04

pullback. Knowing that that pullback might take

20:06

a while, but are things that they will look for to

20:08

know, like, oh, no. No. No. No. This isn't

20:10

working. We have to reverse. They would look

20:12

for

20:12

a couple of things. And again, it depends on

20:14

when they look for them. But

20:17

they would look to see what is happening

20:19

with inflation. You can look under the hood and

20:21

say, okay, are there ways in which we can

20:23

see that inflation is just not budging?

20:25

and what are the reasons for that? Are they not

20:28

budging because of supply chain issues? Are they

20:30

not budging because Russia

20:32

invaded Ukraine and caused all these

20:34

other global economic issues. Is there something going

20:36

on in the financial system? Things

20:37

that may be an interest rate alone

20:40

cannot solve. They're also going look at the

20:41

job market. They're going to see are people

20:44

losing their jobs. Our business is

20:46

no longer

20:46

hiring. Our people,

20:49

you know, being laid off in sector

20:51

versus this sector versus

20:52

this sector. There's a

20:54

way that economists can look at what's happening with

20:56

the unemployment rate and say, that looks like

20:59

a recession. These are all has to look at at

21:01

once. But as you mentioned, it

21:03

depends on when they look and when

21:05

they look might be too

21:07

late. It might be before the

21:09

full thrust of these interest rates really

21:11

come into view. And

21:14

Decisions that

21:14

they make now will have a huge bearing on what

21:16

each of those looks like in the future. And are

21:18

there signs they'll look for in the housing market to

21:21

tell them what to do? they'll

21:23

likely look for what is already happening.

21:25

They'll start to see, you know, is

21:27

is there a more precipitous plummet

21:29

as the housing market cratering

21:31

are people pulling back altogether.

21:34

The housing market might also be an

21:36

instance in which That

21:38

does what the Fed wants it to do, but the problem is that there

21:40

might be other parts of the economy that

21:42

behave differently. Housing

21:45

really is

21:46

this huge signal

21:48

of where

21:48

the economy is going and a huge way

21:50

in which people feel the economy.

21:53

Sometimes the economy can feel

21:55

very abstract or the

21:57

things that the Federal Reserve does can

21:59

feel

21:59

very removed from our day to day

22:02

lives. But it's an interest rate hike

22:04

that affects a mortgage rate

22:06

or rent going up.

22:07

I think this is really one of the

22:09

ways in which people

22:12

feel what is happening in the economy day in and

22:14

day out, and it will have

22:16

enormous consequences for the way their own

22:18

financial life shake out. Rachel, thank you

22:20

so much for joining us and explaining all of this

22:22

today. Thank you, Shane.

22:26

Rachel Siegel covers the Federal Reserve and the

22:29

domestic economy for the post.

22:30

This story was produced by Maggie

22:33

Penman, Ababa, Drierai contributed

22:35

reporting. And

22:37

that's it for

22:37

post reports. Thanks for listening. Today's

22:40

show was mixed by Sam Bayer and edited

22:42

by Lucy Perkins. I'm

22:44

Shane Harris. I've always loved being on

22:46

the pod and I'm very thrilled to have been your

22:48

guest host today. Thanks for having me. We'll be

22:50

back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington

22:53

Post.

22:57

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