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0:43

Number hundred and Eleven million dollars. That's

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says, Make. Me one. With.

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Everything. Welcome

1:06

the property markets. add. I.

1:08

Was a Jack so afraid of this morning and

1:11

this lovely woman came up with her eleven year

1:13

old son and said that there were going to

1:15

listen. To. Property Markets and so

1:17

I have to clean up my act. We

1:19

have to get over here. you thirteen for

1:21

a little while. they are. I honestly I

1:23

get that a lot. A lot people wanna

1:25

listen but their kids and they can imagine

1:27

school. but I can't because the jokes now.

1:29

Dead serious problem. Yeah, having it's worth it.

1:32

I'm definitely going back to. You know I

1:34

agree. Yeah, speaking of hot, you know my

1:36

nickname in college and the dog. What?

1:38

Is now known. I can't say that

1:40

Catholic. And it was tripod

1:43

At it was tripod and us. We're

1:45

back. Where. Back. At

1:49

how how is New York?

1:51

it's fan tactic. If.

1:53

Anybody wants to feel good about. Know.

1:56

Anything. Come to New York and walk

1:58

around long as you can lubricated with

2:00

tons of that the dollars but there's

2:02

limes again stores. The restaurants are amazing.

2:04

It was beautiful this weekend. People are

2:06

friendly, people come up and say nice

2:09

things and it's greater You must be

2:11

enjoying and years on what'd you do?

2:13

The sweet and I went back to

2:15

cause for reunions again. Really this is

2:17

some wow how are the do says

2:19

do says Azusa builder. The

2:22

good is good idea if done a little

2:24

tired. I go Sam and third year in

2:27

a row Princes weird I mean everyone goes

2:29

back every single year sites it's kind of

2:31

getting that much south yeah but that's had

2:33

some big of a care by it's has

2:35

her and asked for more money area so

2:37

they can be ahead. China continues to offer

2:39

classes and pay their faculty that trying to

2:41

get strategy now worth it was a fun

2:43

it was a fun time for that a

2:45

fun time. What he does Libertarian in what

2:47

are they do? A reason it's a prince

2:50

of imagine I'm having pimps caps and talking

2:52

about. Redrawing the maps to the world

2:54

with the republican friends. What would actually

2:56

do? ah, stand is done in the

2:58

grass and drink beer. Or that. And

3:00

so he to somebody on debug up

3:03

for I got us a book. It's

3:05

pretty impressive how fucked up people get

3:07

on you wouldn't expect. I personally wouldn't

3:10

expect that other serious alcohol abuse up

3:12

and down the income ladder that's not

3:14

a card or I get to the

3:17

headlines that occur. Now

3:20

times by, I hope you'll have

3:23

plenty of the flower power beyond

3:25

month. Artificial Intelligence? don't know X

3:27

Ai Close to six billion dollar

3:29

funding round at an eighteen billion

3:31

dollar valuation. Funds from the series

3:33

be around will be used to

3:36

bring the company's first products to

3:38

market. The. Justice Department is

3:40

suing Live Nation for anti competitive

3:42

practices in the concert and street.

3:45

The lawsuit alleges that alongside it's

3:47

subsidiary, Ticketmaster, Live Nation has engaged

3:49

in tactics to raise ticketing seats

3:51

to consumers and restrict opportunity for

3:54

artists and venues. Live Nation says

3:56

declined eight percent following that announcement.

3:59

And finally. China has raised around

4:01

forty billion dollars to increase it's

4:03

chimp capabilities. The National Semiconductor Fund

4:05

is part of China's efforts to

4:08

reduce dependence on America for semiconductors

4:10

and chipmaking equipment. Start your thoughts

4:12

so acts a i think they

4:14

are you on his art is

4:17

pretty controversial and does a of

4:19

people who are now rooting for

4:21

his Los Se well pre money

4:23

of eighteen billion posted Twenty four

4:25

I think the kingdom's invested do

4:28

by Andreessen Horowitz supply capital. I

4:30

almost see it isn't. An option

4:33

are putting putting a sit down on

4:35

on a number because he I gotta

4:37

admit and I had one of those

4:39

moments. I was flying from Miami. And

4:42

I saw the pilots and look over

4:44

to the laughed and it was one

4:46

of them Spacex crafts Monson which is

4:49

as yet A guys are making a

4:51

photo sharing app or are sending biography

4:53

the mail he has during big big

4:55

Both things on this flight they had

4:58

Starlings. And my son

5:00

called me on says time and was perfect

5:02

and I can't believe I'm saying missed my

5:04

least favorite product of years Twitter I think

5:06

it's become the sewage system of the syrup

5:08

might save a product is also from the

5:10

same person the not starlight it isn't on

5:12

believable product A really is incredible and I

5:14

think the people. He. This

5:16

is more that sambo right in

5:18

that as people look at ons

5:20

ability to dissent incredibly bag and

5:22

think okay. There's. A pretty good

5:25

chances sings gonna go out of business are

5:27

not live up to it's potential that there's

5:29

always a non zero probability when you invest

5:31

for the en masse my be ten twenty

5:33

thirty acts so and eighteen billion on us.

5:35

A lot of money for a start up.

5:37

I. Think anything, an Ai that has potentially

5:39

the customer base of a Twitter that

5:41

has access to that data? Have a

5:44

Twitter, or that that just the sheer

5:46

amount of debt. Although I'm wondering how

5:48

valuable that did is because it's has

5:50

a cesspool? I'm. I

5:52

don't want a Sam rooting against the onto that

5:54

the boss and I'm doubling are rooting for the

5:56

guy, but I think there's no denying Must Arlington

5:59

Some the other things. Organ on that, I

6:01

can understand why people would do this. What

6:03

are your thoughts? The i think what's variants

6:05

thing to me as the Cap Table you

6:07

mentioned some of his name's they're basically or

6:10

the biggest names and in the sense Andreessen

6:12

Horowitz Sequoia. Even. Yeah

6:14

to sorry mess and son. Now

6:16

what's striking to me is that

6:18

many of those investors are pretty

6:20

significant shareholders in companies that a

6:22

direct competitors to. Actually I said

6:24

for example, Sequoia is also an

6:26

investor in Open A Ice and

6:28

Ilan has made it. Pretty.

6:31

Abundantly clear that his goal is

6:33

just to replace them. So.

6:35

My question to you. Why?

6:37

Would A V C Light Sequoia Capital

6:39

invest in the rival. Of

6:42

one of it's most significant portfolio

6:44

companies. doesn't not kind of go

6:46

against. Their. Interests and doesn't it

6:48

certainly go against the interests of the

6:50

founders their backs. Yeah, these firms will

6:53

say that they support their Ceo, but

6:55

if there's not putting a make money

6:57

they will violate that. They will not

6:59

stay out of an investment opportunity pretending

7:02

to live up to their in I'm

7:04

Deb previously stated a mantra: we now

7:06

find competitors dirt. They're not making a

7:09

bad against any I company they're making

7:11

about on the sector and so don't

7:13

obviously bump up the end. Sequoia and

7:15

Andreessen are so powerful. That

7:17

they can not dictate terms but dated. They can

7:20

find rival companies and and the sea of another

7:22

can be pops up and says hey you said

7:24

you were going to fund our competitors This is

7:26

making life harder than say. Well we're Sequoia. Get

7:28

over at World will do whatever we want to.

7:31

Live. Nation. I think the government here has

7:34

a really strong case because the thing

7:36

that has held back. Where. It

7:38

got in a way of breaking a big

7:40

tech or dear dear up to Sea Tac

7:42

since against pick tag is that are products

7:44

of for free now traditionally anti trust laws

7:46

based on the series the The Board Theory

7:48

and and as Consumer Harm and the Best

7:50

Litmus Test for Consumer Harm. He

7:53

has pricing so big Chicken ago some

7:55

twelve the six to three players and

7:57

then an economist gets up. There goes.

8:00

And by the way, the chicken has gotten better. but

8:02

it's prices of and chris faster than inflation to the

8:04

last thirty years because there's. Yeah,

8:06

there's one king chicken as a monopoly and

8:08

second or a do op there and that

8:10

place and it's an easier way to look

8:12

at any trust in a problem with Google

8:14

and matter is it's hard to look at

8:16

consumer harm. Another consumer harm comes in the

8:18

in the form of okay my city on

8:21

girl is is engaging in self cutting because

8:23

of the billingses didn't matter but that is

8:25

hard for the clamps quantify. And

8:27

not an easy consumer tests that sort

8:29

of indirect costs levied on parents in

8:31

society around the world was much easier

8:33

is when a chance he continues to

8:36

raise it's long distance rates faster than

8:38

inflation with city technology and ago while

8:40

in a comic as be brought these

8:42

guys up as more competition. You're just

8:44

going to see a massive increase or

8:46

decrease in pricing, an increase in innovation,

8:48

more are and de alg all good

8:50

stuff and eventually. Greater

8:52

Share games. I think of all the

8:55

seventh bells baby bells that direct sunlight

8:57

into is broken up into, they were

8:59

all worth more than the original. a

9:01

tent he was and somehow like a

9:03

decade. So I think they're gonna have

9:05

that type of ammunition here because my

9:07

guess is. I think they

9:09

will be able to shower. Demonstrates

9:11

that pricing at these events has

9:13

vastly. Outpaced. Inflation are some

9:16

of that. Is. A concentration of power

9:18

and they'll say it's all because monopoly abuse.

9:20

I think that's a little bit unfair. I

9:22

would imagine if I'd speculate. The lawyer representing

9:24

Live Nation and Ago. Where. Fact

9:26

and I that consumer sentiment is against

9:28

us. Since we had that debacle around

9:31

Taylor Swift, I gets. So.

9:33

I would bet that they try to figure out

9:36

a way to go to the D O J

9:38

at Ft since I joined us to sell this

9:40

to want to suspend nursed him. I have a

9:42

consent decree or I think the lawyers and a

9:44

D O J I think they are salivating. Read

9:47

it. Getting court on this one. What are your

9:49

thoughts and will you mention those price increases as

9:51

they gonna prove that it's increase? Foster them say

9:53

since we have the data at the have and

9:55

twenty eight see me. Average ticket price for top

9:58

one hundred U S concert was ninety dollars. Today

10:00

that number is one hundred twenty.

10:02

Which means I mean look at

10:04

inflation. During that same time period,

10:07

it's increase around twenty per cent.

10:09

Concert tickets are up thirty three

10:11

percent. So yeah, the the the

10:13

price increase is real. Those are.

10:15

Pretty. Serious Cancer and Trust Enforcement's Having

10:18

said that I would make to

10:20

criticism for the deer J here

10:22

and the first is the following

10:24

Back and Twenty Ten. Live.

10:26

Nation made a bid to buy

10:28

a ticket master which was pretty

10:30

controversial the time because Live Nation

10:32

as it is today was the

10:34

largest events for motor in the

10:36

world and ultimately the D O

10:38

J approved it. They decided that's

10:40

under certain legal conditions to transaction

10:42

was lawful and a did not

10:44

violate anti trust laws Now. This.

10:47

Lawsuit is playing simply claiming that Live

10:49

Nation most with Ticketmaster is a monopoly

10:51

which to me begs the question why

10:53

would you let the modes in the

10:55

first place I think the answer is

10:58

no we made a mistake we shouldn't

11:00

have. I think generally speaking it's just

11:02

not a great signal to censor the

11:04

market It I just think of roads,

11:06

some level of faith and a deer

11:09

check our it's insane Is it the

11:11

best investments. That. Taxpayers could make right

11:13

now in terms of our ally. And

11:15

a short term basis would be one

11:18

the Ira to get twelve bucks back

11:20

for every one they they fund the

11:22

are asked and the sack would be

11:24

to double the size of the dear

11:26

to any up to see and start

11:28

breaking apologies industry is he bring prices

11:30

down. There be more jobs, more shareholder

11:32

value, more tax revenue. I it is

11:34

time for the great d concentration is

11:37

time to break up these industries across

11:39

all different dimension same as that have

11:41

been word salad there and his final

11:43

thoughts on China's forty billion dollar semiconductor

11:45

fund. The Chip races the arms race

11:47

These countries we don't want. No, we don't want

11:49

to get into a hot war with anybody right

11:51

that risk nuclear war. But we have a China's

11:54

kind of a cold peace. It's not even a

11:56

cold war. Russia and the U S really hated

11:58

each other and sexism or classmates. Actually undermine

12:00

each other. We are more in

12:02

up interdependent than that. The new

12:05

font for this proxy war this

12:07

cold piece is Chips and Weather's

12:09

your toaster oven or the guidance

12:11

system on an Ai operated drawn.

12:13

These ships are everything. And.

12:16

I think the Biden mistaken does not get enough

12:18

credit for being very forward leaning and making. A.

12:20

Big investment with a tip. sacked. I think

12:22

about eighty three or eighty five billion dollars

12:24

and China has to respond. And what's interesting

12:27

is that. And. Mean to assume

12:29

said the Us is is pulling away with

12:31

that. Our economy's so drastically doors every other

12:33

autonomy that it's gonna be very hard for

12:35

anyone to keep up with us. Even China.

12:38

On a spending levels. so I think this

12:40

is. I think this was. Very

12:43

predictable. When. When the U

12:45

S basically put pressure on it was Tsm

12:47

see the called out of out of Northern

12:49

Europe and said do not sell the sophisticated

12:51

tips to China or we're going to make

12:53

life hard for you and we said the

12:55

same thing to and video that you can't

12:57

say I'm a sophisticated ships and it is

12:59

guys that is going from a cold piece

13:01

to a Cold War. Because that

13:04

is cutting off. Memes

13:06

that is cutting off their lifeline but

13:08

the chips are production. semiconductor technology is

13:11

the New France in the Cold War/a

13:13

cold Peace with your thoughts. I think

13:15

the started results. me as a. Sign.

13:18

Is on site to spend more than one hundred

13:20

forty billion dollars on Sep production. So far. As

13:22

such, the laws it in the Us and and

13:24

Europe. So. You

13:27

know.statistic, combined with decided the

13:29

country's already dealing with. Basically.

13:32

A must and economic crisis I mean

13:34

a to be investing all that money

13:36

in anything else. They have a lot

13:39

of other problems a deal as but

13:41

the fact they want to put it

13:43

towards this towards chip manufacturing into a

13:46

I I got just tells us how

13:48

critical sign a consensus the technology to

13:50

be the only thing as them a

13:52

number. My pillow the misleading because that's

13:55

government spending. And we cancer

13:57

time I look at him out of mind a private

13:59

companies are invest then. In the sack,

14:01

the technology and you can bet every one.

14:04

Of the okay in video ads a court of

14:06

a trillion dollars. In five minutes person

14:08

earnings call. you can bet a lot of that

14:10

is gonna go back into chip research and design

14:12

and idea rights. In addition the biggest players and

14:14

Deep Deep as part of the Players in the

14:16

World. He. Amazon, Microsoft

14:19

Matter, Apple or Allied.

14:21

I am sick. Of

14:24

Kissing Chance in Hong Sas. So.

14:26

You can bet they are all investing.

14:28

Tens. Of billions. In. Developing

14:31

their own ship so I would bad that

14:33

if we had a real number here it

14:35

would dwarf the Chinese number. Yeah so conference

14:37

of Events as. I

14:39

will be right back off the brake for our

14:41

conversation with Lin Alden. Support.

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For the comes from fund rise,

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Venture Capital has been one of

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disclaimers: Can be found

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at the end of the

15:54

show and at sunrise.com/innovation. Well

16:06

combat. He's a conversation with

16:08

Lin Old, an independent analysts, full time

16:10

investor and the author of Broken Money.

16:12

Lin thank you for joining us and

16:14

I think have me happy here! So

16:18

we got lots to go into, but

16:21

I want to start with just some

16:23

of the more high level basic stuff

16:25

you've put out sort of and and

16:27

invest in one or one memo it's

16:29

on your website you did up for

16:31

trying to a for and in that

16:33

manner you outline what you believed to

16:35

be some of the more common. Pitfalls

16:37

as you cool. That's when it comes

16:39

to. Getting. Started as an investor.

16:41

could you just outline for us what

16:43

some of those pitfalls of fun? It's

16:45

a lot of different pitfalls of people

16:48

could run into. One of them is

16:50

just not getting started. That's one of

16:52

the biggest ones overall. another one is

16:54

over complicating it. I'm basically people they

16:56

get frozen by decision process that are

16:58

to how to get started are they

17:00

get overwhelmed with options? A lot of

17:02

financial investing content ah historically has been

17:05

kind of gargani. It's kind of as

17:07

though if they put out of reach

17:09

of of most people. And I

17:11

think another big one is over concentration.

17:13

A lot ties of people do get

17:15

interested in investing they tend to get

17:17

drawn towards and the more high volatility

17:19

or things they don't very compounds super

17:21

well it could be. for example, people

17:23

get really like mining Stocks to the

17:25

vive are highly know. they don't have

17:27

a really good track record where they

17:29

can really do a big theme or

17:31

something rather than fully understanding what they're

17:33

investing. And ah and so there's There's

17:35

multiple things that people run into the

17:37

are we took a lot on his

17:40

podcast. About the difference between investing

17:42

vs. Trading and I think you've

17:44

described as his gambling and generally

17:46

all view has been that it

17:48

pays to be a value investor.

17:50

Do you consider yourself to be

17:52

a value investor in the traditional

17:54

sense? And if so, What

17:56

does that tell much the mean to you? For the

17:58

most part I do. That said, The be kind

18:01

of framework that I entered investing

18:03

from ah I'll basically. Read.

18:05

Warren Buffett and and that kind of

18:07

content scrolls like a teenager and I

18:09

would look at. You

18:11

know by copies of reason prices

18:14

based their fundamentals up for the

18:16

long term over time you'd I've

18:18

I've looked at multiple different events.

18:20

The strategies value off as the

18:22

kind of perception that it is

18:24

opposite of gross. Ah the basically

18:26

it involves to the lower growth

18:28

cheaper companies where I think a

18:31

more holistic are sitting of I

18:33

investing is the best it is.

18:35

It's fundamental investing have selected include

18:37

a growth company. As long as

18:39

you're you're basing your research on.

18:41

The fundamentals of what you spectacle

18:43

been to do. rather than say

18:45

purely chasing things like Price of

18:47

So As and Peter Lynch really

18:50

pipelines that strategy back the eighties

18:52

like growth at a reasonable price.

18:54

That as basically that I could

18:56

be kind of the intersection between

18:58

growth and value investing. In in

19:00

recent years I've incorporated more Macro

19:02

Now says into my investing frameworks

19:04

because I kind of started to

19:06

view. Back. And say

19:08

what? He seventy two, eighteen?

19:11

That. This. Is New York a

19:13

macro heavy decade which means that things

19:15

that are outside of any one companies

19:17

control will move a large portion of

19:19

the markets. So I I do incorporated

19:21

kind of a macro overlay that helps

19:23

me to curb and potential growth rates

19:25

of of companies and things like that

19:28

be at the heart of it. I'd

19:30

eat. I like to buy profit companies

19:32

at readable valuations that I think you're

19:34

going to be providing a good product

19:36

or service Overrated. Invest will time Horizon

19:38

Three Five, ten years of As and

19:40

let that he says. Play out of

19:42

the long term, let's do the boats

19:44

overlay of a macro. What is into

19:46

the big macher factors that provides for

19:48

the atmosphere, extras. Some of the decision

19:50

sir recommendations you make a big piece

19:53

of it is the fiscal dominance is

19:55

how phrase it's debts most most of

19:57

the past call it forty years of

19:59

investing history when. Under a a

20:01

period of monetary dominance which we

20:03

can think of as central banks

20:06

and commercial banks having a very

20:08

big influence on markets are and

20:10

soaks most economic expansions are these

20:13

periods of heightened bank lending activity

20:15

and then most of the recession's

20:17

are periods where our bags are

20:20

pulling back their lending armed and

20:22

and off the because central banks

20:24

are tightening for various reasons. But

20:27

there are other periods in history

20:29

where. Of the Siskel side becomes

20:31

as big or sometimes more important

20:33

variable then the bank lending side

20:35

and so for example if look

20:37

at any will net bank loan

20:39

creation and he compare that to

20:42

annual fiscal deficits in both decades

20:44

the bank lending would be a

20:46

bigger some then the fiscal deficit

20:48

especially if you also add corporate

20:50

bond issuance that corporate bond issue.

20:52

It's basically how much can a

20:54

private sector lending in various forms

20:56

you securitized.is happening compared to the

20:58

size the fiscal deficits. But

21:00

the twenty twenties and really could even

21:02

like the year can leading up to

21:05

them to do next year. So we're

21:07

now going to a period where the

21:09

fiscal deficits in a given year are

21:12

bigger than new bank loan creation and

21:14

bigger than even the some of bank

21:16

will increase in in net corporate bond

21:18

issuance armed. And the last time that

21:21

the Us was in that situation was

21:23

really the nineteen forties opposite of a

21:25

long term historical kind of frameworks. Japan

21:28

find itself in that position today. And

21:30

in that kind of environments you

21:32

tend to on average front inflation

21:35

a little higher than you would

21:37

otherwise you can to have a

21:39

little bit less cyclicality in market

21:41

because he had his background deficit

21:43

that in it's happening here d

21:45

tend to get bigger bifurcation between

21:47

different sectors and so for example

21:50

in the city states last year.

21:52

if you're on the right side

21:54

of fiscal deficits ah meeting for

21:56

example if your if your business

21:58

is catering to recipients of

22:01

Medicare, Social Security, Defense,

22:04

your business is doing pretty well. If

22:06

you're in the travel, hospitality, restaurant business,

22:08

you're doing fairly well in this environment.

22:10

Whereas if you're not really on the

22:13

right side of physical deficits, if you're

22:15

more impacted by the monetary situation like

22:17

commercial real estate, for example, then

22:20

you're in outright depression. And so when you

22:22

have that kind of tight monetary but also

22:25

a very loose fiscal policy, you get into

22:27

a very bifurcated type of market.

22:29

And so that

22:31

kind of led me to say be less

22:34

bond focused, more equity focused, to make decisions

22:36

like that for my portfolio. And some of

22:38

those have played out far

22:41

more usefully than say avoiding one company

22:43

or picking another company. Having those kind

22:45

of big asset allocations reasonably

22:47

correct has been a huge source of risk

22:51

reduction. So I found this really fascinating.

22:53

So we always

22:55

talk about everyone's obsessed with Chairman

22:57

Powell, whether his

22:59

briefcase is especially

23:02

full or not based on indication of where

23:04

interest rates are going. And you're saying that

23:07

the fact that we're a

23:09

household making $52,000 a

23:11

year, our tax receipts, and our decision

23:13

to spend $72,000 a

23:16

year or $75,000 and

23:18

basically rack up unbelievable

23:21

deficits, that's overcompensating.

23:23

That's really more important than whether

23:25

there's a rate hike or not.

23:28

And I find that

23:30

terrifying just because

23:32

it feels like one, you're just

23:34

living on borrowed time. It just doesn't feel

23:37

sustainable. And then what shocks me is that I

23:39

speak to a lot of people and they don't

23:41

seem that panicked about it. It's almost as if

23:45

we've normalized the idea that we can take

23:47

in $5 trillion in taxes

23:49

and spend $7 trillion. What am I

23:51

missing here? Well, so there's an

23:54

interesting trend that I think led to this and I

23:56

agree with you. When You

23:58

see people today? talk about... The risks

24:00

of the debt and adapted you often

24:02

see the response that is people said

24:04

well people think about this for decades

24:07

and looked nothing bad happened and it

24:09

it's funny when you look at i'm

24:11

with the national debt clock when I

24:13

prefer that Was the late eighties Ross

24:15

Perot ran the most successful independent presidential

24:17

campaign in modern history based on largely

24:19

death death death says in the early

24:22

nineties that period was kind of the

24:24

peak as I gazed for public concern

24:26

around the debts and deficits. but the

24:28

phase you went to for the next

24:30

three decades was that try to open

24:32

up the world Soviet Union sell are

24:34

basically large amounts of labor and resources.

24:37

got connected to western capital but big

24:39

burst of globalization very disinflationary and so

24:41

we kind of had this period of

24:43

of thirty more years of falling interest

24:45

rates are a that offset a lot

24:47

of our public debt accumulation of you

24:49

if you double your debt but you

24:52

cut your in treating your your age

24:54

is extent still still seems quite manageable

24:56

or and I think people got rolled

24:58

into a false sense of security. That

25:00

that be kind of said. Okay, be worried about

25:03

the death. Death is. the turns out we didn't

25:05

have to worry refine and are now people kind

25:07

of. I think split the pendulum swung the other

25:09

way That people say look, what we've learned is

25:11

that they don't matter. But I think the key

25:13

risk is that. Our. Industry

25:15

it's of now. They bounced off zero

25:17

done are going sideways to up. I

25:20

think we're in a structurally like, no

25:22

longer declining industry environment. And

25:24

when you have accumulated deaths, deficits and

25:26

into traits are just going sideways let

25:28

alone up set off that's gone and

25:30

the debts endeavours is as to start

25:32

a matter quite a bit more arms

25:35

and then as I said before when

25:37

that some of fiscal deficit is larger

25:39

than the amount of net bank loan

25:41

creation or even that the some of

25:43

netbank will increase in in corporate bond

25:45

issuance arms that's a much bigger factor

25:47

in the economy and then in addition

25:50

you can get through point where the

25:52

said rate hikes could say they lose

25:54

their effectiveness the fight inflation because if

25:56

you average vibe in the see back

25:58

in the early eighties. Where public

26:00

that is? Thirty. Five percent of

26:02

Gdp and most of the money creations

26:05

coming from bank lending. If you raise

26:07

rates super high, you do blow out

26:09

the fiscal since his expenses some extent.

26:11

we put a lot more downward pressure

26:13

on that private sector lending as so

26:15

that has via a net disinflationary fact.

26:17

another head of the spectrum of see

26:20

if you have. Fiscal. Deficits are

26:22

larger than bank lending he had. you

26:24

have any Keebler the stock of over

26:26

one hundred percent said the Gdp on

26:28

the on the public ledger of when

26:30

you raise interest rates which is what

26:33

we've seen in the past couple years.

26:35

you do put some downward pressure on

26:37

bank lending. Ah, but also you block

26:39

that it is expense of the federal

26:41

government by an even larger total number.

26:43

Send it to slow down you did

26:45

for bank lending. And so it

26:48

has a less disinflationary fact that it

26:50

would if you had only say thirty

26:52

five percent said that he picked up.

26:54

And if you go far enough like

26:56

if you get to where Japan is

26:58

yes, have like two hundred percent that

27:00

the gdp stayed race. Could even be

27:02

inflationary under certain circumstances because almost none

27:04

of your money growth is coming from

27:06

bank lending. It's all coming from monetized

27:08

fiscal deficits and into traits increases to

27:10

school deficits. I'm a Debbie Downer

27:12

half glass empty kind. I just I'd I'm

27:14

not smart enough to figure out how monetary

27:16

you know the series that we can keep

27:18

just spending more them are making what you're

27:20

saying as a potential scenario. That was how

27:23

it on wines. Is just

27:25

inflation that we lose both in

27:27

the chamber of our our tool

27:29

against inflation becomes useless because of

27:31

the skywriting interest on on debt

27:34

which exposed to that. Further, what's

27:36

more and more Interest payments? More

27:38

money printing? Because we have no

27:40

choice artists? one. Can

27:42

we continue to do this to some economists

27:45

say I used in didn't continue to do

27:47

it? Do you believe we can continue to

27:49

to live above are mean site does and

27:51

to is this is the doomsday scenario just

27:53

inflation that we no longer have the weapons

27:55

to fight. So yep that's always how are

27:57

described the do this they are that's limit.

28:00

There is that we'd be get struck

28:02

conflation that is beyond our ability to

28:04

fight with all the tools that we're

28:06

we're doing because all the said tools

28:08

for controlling inflation or really bout accelerating

28:10

or decelerating bank lending and a really

28:12

don't know anything about the deficit of

28:14

the deficit is the source is the

28:16

primary source of new money creation than

28:18

the Feds tools become limited and sometimes

28:20

even counterproductive arms. The other question based

28:23

guide I don't view it as sustainable.

28:25

I think that these situations can go

28:27

a little a lot longer than people

28:29

expect but it of them into their

28:31

sustainable are basically this. this phenomenon is

28:33

not new to say emerging markets It

28:35

happens from or to Marcus all the

28:37

time. They have a lot less rope

28:39

ah to to you know they have

28:41

lot less road to go down because

28:44

they often their liability to nominate occurrences,

28:46

a date or control bear more line

28:48

on external capital on the Us has

28:50

on a ton of road or as

28:52

a strictly had a ton of road

28:54

arm. I think people overestimate the amount

28:56

of road that it has been in

28:58

free to no longer sexily declining. A

29:02

So I I do busy think that

29:04

the year the long term outcomes here

29:07

is on average higher inflation and in

29:09

places that is less for less I'm

29:11

able to be controlled by central bank

29:13

policy tightening. Ah, and that really the

29:16

only way to try to get a

29:18

handle on it is to deal with

29:20

the deficits. But a lot of that

29:23

is is structural. It's basically accumulate decisions

29:25

over decades and things that are to

29:27

the third rails and politics to touch.

29:30

Ah and it becomes It becomes very hard

29:32

problem to solve with to see I'm a

29:34

not very bullish on. The. Strength

29:37

of currency or the reliability of

29:39

bonds as long term investment vehicles

29:41

Because of that underlying situation. One.

29:43

Time Background point I would make is

29:45

that when people talk about debt and

29:47

deficits in the U S of Eight,

29:49

they talk about a thing like a

29:51

doomsday scenario for people to clients Study

29:53

Global markets are like you know, I'm.

29:56

In a in a few weeks I'll be back in

29:58

Egypt. I go every year there. Something like

30:00

forty percent place right now. And.

30:03

Life goes on I thought this I was

30:05

not my great by it people sit the

30:07

things that people think of as end of

30:09

the world are happening all the time. In.

30:12

Multiple countries as we speak. At

30:15

a higher magnitude then. Etti

30:17

this likely leads to in the near term. So

30:19

did I think that's that the optimists. Point.

30:22

There is that. There are always things

30:24

that are more extreme. There are. People

30:26

are adaptable, Ah, systems change over

30:28

time and the end of one system

30:31

or a d the steepest a switch

30:33

off from one cheat once isn't to

30:35

know systems off the more hand. And

30:38

you know apart for them biggest terrorist

30:40

the world. Like nuclear war. subtly that

30:43

lights life goes on right? So it's

30:45

up. Ideally don't like of the phrase

30:47

that it's doomed even though it it

30:49

had serious. Support

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at sunrise.com/innovation. We're

32:16

back with Property Markets. Could

32:18

you give us your general assessment of the

32:20

Crypto market right now? Are you still a

32:22

believer in Bitcoin? And how does it compare

32:25

in your view to other digital assets. Digital.

32:27

Asset Yappy Sky been a ball

32:29

on Bitcoin as well as. Stable.

32:32

Coins is really the two categories that

32:34

I've found to be high utility kind

32:36

as signal to noise. I be very

32:38

critical in the rest of the crypto

32:40

space. Basically when we think of money,

32:42

huge money is largely a ledger earn.

32:45

So when people were using gold is

32:47

my their base you're lying and nature

32:49

to provide a ledger and we would

32:51

augment that ledger with. Yo. Coinage

32:53

and abstraction. but basically we're We're

32:55

kind of updating this ledger by

32:57

physical possession of gold and nature's

32:59

kind of setting the rules for

33:01

how you can make more gold

33:03

or or how to move around

33:05

the earth entity that gold. Modern

33:07

money relies on central bank ledgers

33:09

who basically we trust the said

33:11

to run and ledger and then

33:13

banks are kind of layer to

33:15

on top of that and a

33:17

centralized ledger so we're just gonna

33:20

to tear. money system really kind

33:22

of three tier. When you cooperate

33:24

syntax and things like basket, this kind

33:26

of two or three tiers centralized money

33:28

system and that sounds there, so go

33:31

in the Us at least for the

33:33

past. Past. Century with had a pretty

33:35

good. Are. Currents he

33:37

loses i slowly and we have plenty

33:39

of investment vehicles to save into where

33:41

for example when you look at a

33:43

at a country like Egypt on sale

33:45

have yet to be five hundred they

33:47

don't have a of the their their

33:50

stock markets not a reliable investment kind

33:52

of our our wealth building vehicle they've

33:54

got real estate ah but real seats

33:56

course illiquid so this also to downsize

33:58

with that they can have. Invest in

34:00

their own currency in any funding for

34:02

mounts because you've got an average of

34:04

double digit inflation over fifty year period

34:06

He and so what. things like Bitcoin,

34:09

stable coins, doom and could use Just

34:11

explain what a stable coin as I'm

34:13

sure. It'll become clear, but

34:15

sir as a stable coin is went

34:17

out. When an entity hold dollars or

34:20

think the key bills for example are

34:22

you can wire them money. ah they

34:24

will then give you tokens that are

34:26

redeemable at least by large entities for

34:29

those dollars or as though they're basically

34:31

like banknotes in did reform. And

34:34

then or even smaller as visa don't

34:36

have the right to redeem them Vegas

34:38

or trade them around and of the

34:40

main. Ability there is that

34:42

allows countries that have a store of

34:45

their heart that desired dollars because they

34:47

wanted some stable currency that's more stable

34:49

than they currency, but don't have the

34:52

volatility of gold or bitcoin or something.

34:54

That's it. allows them to access dollars

34:56

more easily and and more digital form

34:58

as long as they have a smartphone

35:01

And so they're a pop. in Argentina,

35:03

their a popper love and on their

35:05

a proper Nigeria. They're basically the. We.

35:08

Live in a world where this one

35:10

hundred sixty currencies, morales they're all around

35:12

us. Central monopoly so fury Nigeria you've

35:15

gotta trust ledger in central bank and

35:17

that it's Nigerian government and how they're

35:19

going to manage their currency. The

35:22

borders are fairly tightly controlled which is

35:24

you know to bring so much value

35:27

air out of in airports. Bank transfers

35:29

are parkway control that often done an

35:31

artificial exchange rate the differ wildly from

35:33

with the African a market rate for

35:35

their currency is a what stable coins

35:37

and bitcoin do. Is you

35:39

know if if if this Nigerian graphic

35:41

designer and shield that the Qr code on

35:44

a video call I can pay her

35:46

in whatever money she wants. He could ask

35:48

for Bitcoins, you could ask for dollar stable

35:50

coins and it goes to her around her

35:52

local banking system. And

35:55

she's able to then use that peer to peer

35:57

see can bring it with her revis she goes

35:59

a shiver leave. Nigeria. Ah as you

36:01

busy has more choice over what money

36:03

she uses outside of her currency monopoly,

36:05

Bitcoin is the fully decentralized you know,

36:08

fully scarce and version of that is

36:10

the one that's not to do so.

36:12

Central hub the you have to deal

36:14

with the satire, volatility and the uncertainty

36:17

of wouldn't be worth and say any

36:19

given one or two year period were

36:21

stable coins. The downside is that the

36:23

are fully sent. There's

36:26

some and see that's holding the

36:28

the assets. And you have

36:30

to trust them. Your that the trust

36:33

their ability to operate in the registry

36:35

environments. But where would phrases they can

36:37

serve as offshore bank accounts for the

36:39

working and middle class rather than just

36:41

a wealthy the candidates compress the overhead

36:44

of running one of those storms were

36:46

if you're in Argentina. You. Might

36:48

not trust your your own our government's

36:50

ability run the currency. Minor plus the

36:52

banks because in the past year unity

36:54

store dollars and them didn't get complicated

36:56

way it's but they say well you

36:59

know for small amounts are working capital

37:01

all trust this offer entity. Guys.

37:03

Your and somewhere like Argentina

37:05

or Miller, Egypt, Lebanon, Russia,

37:08

Turkey. it's. Those. Places

37:10

were in part of the speech and you

37:12

probably have more faith in the value of

37:14

Bitcoin. thus is devalues. Say. A

37:17

Turkish lira when I don't see

37:19

however is how bitcoin could serve

37:21

any real use case for an

37:23

American citizen. First, one of the

37:25

attributes of money it is is that which

37:27

you hold even if you don't intend to

37:29

consume it yourself. or that kind of historically

37:32

were money kind of came from the forgive

37:34

of we hold a gold coin we're not

37:36

necessarily intending to melted down in a jewelry

37:38

or does or use any time soon, but

37:40

we're kind of holding it knowing that it's

37:42

a useful thing that other people use. Store

37:44

of Value serve value. And as an American.

37:46

At two point between, really don't find

37:49

ourselves troubled for payments or we've in

37:51

trouble for savings with no shortage of

37:53

savings vehicles that are reliable arms. But

37:55

if you. Kind. Of view it as

37:58

something that could be useful for doing couple rounds. World

38:00

Something like half the World lives

38:02

under shades of authoritarianism. It's half

38:04

the World lives under and a

38:06

persistent double digit inflation and multiple.

38:08

you know, hyperinflation with our lifetime

38:10

of bitcoin is something that americans

38:13

off and treat more than investments.

38:15

And. It's one that happens: you have

38:17

outperformed yes, Be Five hundred, The Nasdaq,

38:19

almost everything other than India over e

38:21

three five ten year period. So. For

38:24

us and in in America and Europe

38:26

is often seen as investments which I

38:28

think makes sense, but in the Africa

38:31

where there's. Roughly forty currencies are

38:33

lad America with is roughly thirty currencies

38:35

and every one of the currency borders

38:37

is a friction. Ah, most as currencies

38:39

are undesirable to hold is something it's

38:41

useful to them and therefore it is

38:43

that investment. For people that kind of

38:45

understand that there is a use case

38:48

even if the use case doesn't apply

38:50

to them. And like American, I do

38:52

think that we are running this more

38:54

structurally high inflation. Because. Of

38:56

the things we talked about earlier in

38:58

this in discussion but it doesn't mean

39:00

they have to happen super quickly, it

39:02

doesn't mean that things have did and

39:04

ah you know he's kind of do

39:06

the ruff math and Congressional Budget Office

39:08

expects or twenty trillion in net treasury

39:10

to be issued. oh the next ten

39:12

years they also assume know recessions. ah

39:14

so if is recessions that it was

39:16

probably be higher they'd really understood the

39:19

number. so it's for the sake assertively

39:21

twenty try and treasures you can be

39:23

issued if you look at how much

39:25

you know. Gold to be mind of

39:27

next ten years. I current prices the

39:29

summer in the ballpark of two point

39:31

five trillion and he met a Bitcoin.

39:34

This can be created. A current prices

39:36

is something like seventy billion. The of

39:38

course gold and bitcoin can change in

39:40

price to accommodate more inflows if people

39:42

wanna pour money into dumps. For the

39:45

point is basically if you're just kind

39:47

of saying what are want to own

39:49

that's pretty scarce. Ah Bavasi good equities

39:51

are one of the absence of good

39:53

will stay can be one of the

39:56

options. are is a sort of

39:58

the one of the options especially for wealthy investors

40:00

but also Bitcoin is because it's liquid,

40:02

it's fungible, it's portable, and

40:05

it's got a lower kind of new

40:07

supply growth rate than a number of

40:09

other kind of liquid investments. So I

40:11

think from an American perspective, it's often

40:13

viewed as an investment, whereas in other

40:16

countries, it could be viewed as a

40:18

lifeline. Isn't that the core

40:20

value proposition of Bitcoin? Over

40:23

time, every fiat currency has failed

40:25

because the temptation to think short-term

40:28

results in printing of money

40:30

and flooding the market

40:32

of that currency. And that Bitcoin, whether

40:36

it's true or not, has created

40:38

the perception that we will stop

40:40

printing at some point. And no

40:42

other asset, there's more gold in

40:44

the ground, there's synthetic diamonds, and

40:46

there's a Fed and presidential

40:49

cycles that just continue to print more money.

40:51

At the end of the day, isn't it

40:53

that they've convinced people we're going to stop

40:56

mining Bitcoin at some point? Yeah,

40:58

so basically, the rule set of Bitcoin

41:00

is distributed among the people that run

41:02

nodes, it's open source software, and so

41:04

it's built into the code since

41:07

inception. So every approximately

41:09

four years, the amount of new Bitcoin

41:11

that's traded every 10 minutes gets cut

41:13

in half. So it's

41:15

not that mining just one day shuts off, it's

41:17

that mining starts out at a certain pace, and

41:20

over time, it asymptotically approaches

41:22

21 million. So

41:24

back in April, the amount

41:26

of new Bitcoin created every 10 minutes

41:28

got cut in half, and approximately four

41:30

years from now, it will happen again. And

41:33

at this point, as of this latest

41:35

halving, the annual supply inflation of Bitcoin

41:38

dropped below 1%, which

41:41

is approximately half that of gold. Gold

41:43

generally historically grows at estimates of something

41:45

like 1.5% to 2% per year in terms of

41:48

supply. The typical developed market currency

41:51

grows at 6% to 9%

41:53

per year, outside of

41:55

extraordinary years. Emerging markets

41:57

like developing countries, they typically grow at...

42:00

double-digit currency supply growth over

42:02

the long term. And so

42:05

among fairly liquid monies or

42:07

money-like assets, Bitcoin is now

42:09

a very slow-growing supply. I

42:11

mean, the way you frame it is

42:13

very compelling that when you look at

42:15

the actual gross amount out there, even with its price

42:17

run-up, what you're saying is

42:19

it's actually the

42:22

perception of the run-up is not the reality. That

42:24

because of this halving and a reduction in supply,

42:26

the asset price is still reasonable. Is that fair?

42:28

Am I putting more into your mouth? That's my

42:31

view. And I think the total adjustment market is

42:33

still notably higher than it is now. I

42:36

don't know what it's going to do over the

42:38

next three months, but yeah, I'm bullish for say

42:40

a two-year view or a five-year view or potentially

42:42

a 10-year view. I went

42:45

through a long phase where I was pretty

42:47

skeptical on the asset. I was like, well,

42:49

what if another currency is going to be

42:51

better or what if the whole space gets

42:53

so diluted? So once it

42:56

saw the network effects really form, once I

42:58

delved into the technology and why it's designed

43:00

a certain way, ever

43:02

since really early 2020, I've

43:04

been pretty structurally bullish on it. And

43:07

that really continues to be the case

43:09

over four years later. So

43:11

I just want to return real quickly to

43:14

the macro discussion. And that is I'm

43:17

trying to think of a soft landing scenario

43:19

for what feels like reckless spending.

43:22

And that is the following. And tell me if you think this

43:24

is a potential scenario. We should go out a way to raise

43:27

taxes, lower spending, and our deficit. We get

43:29

our deficit down to $1 trillion

43:34

a year. And inflation continues to run at 5%, 6%

43:36

a year, meaning in 12 years, the

43:40

economy doubles or the dollar, notional dollar value

43:42

of the economy doubles to $50 trillion.

43:47

And we're running deficits at

43:49

2% of

43:51

total GDP, which is lower than inflation,

43:53

which argues that as a percentage of

43:56

our GDP, inflation start to go down

43:59

in the market. It perceives that interest

44:01

rates lower and we're no longer in

44:03

this cycle of upward inflation. Is that

44:05

a potential soft landing scenario? I think

44:07

so, but the main challenge there is

44:09

that it's...and this is kind of unique

44:11

to the U.S. Our

44:14

tax receipts are very tied as a

44:16

prices. It's kind of just...especially

44:18

since the 90s because a large portion

44:20

of taxes are from wealth individuals. So

44:23

people exercising their invidia options. Exactly.

44:26

Yeah. And with a short

44:28

lag, tax receipts follow asset prices. So

44:30

if we were to pivot toward austerity, there's

44:33

a decent chance we would get kind of

44:35

flattish asset prices. And

44:38

then therefore you could ironically continue to widen the

44:40

deficit anyway. It's a very hard, pale

44:42

spin to get out of. You'd have to, I think, not

44:44

just tweak your revenue

44:47

and spending model, but you'd have to kind of

44:49

overhaul some of the ways it works, which would

44:51

make it even harder to do in a very

44:53

polarized environment. Only

44:56

speaking when countries get out of this. We got

44:58

to similar debt levels in the 40s. We

45:01

had much better demographics back then. We

45:03

had a much stronger manufacturing base. But

45:05

basically what countries do when they find themselves

45:08

here is they generally

45:10

run financial repression, which is

45:12

that they hold rates below the inflation rate. It

45:14

kind of slows down the interest expense of

45:17

the public ledger and therefore

45:19

can kind of slow down the money

45:21

supply growth. It makes your currency fairly

45:24

undesirable to outside entities, which

45:26

is not what we're doing right now. That's what

45:29

Japan's doing. But I think that's kind

45:31

of in the cards for the US, which is basically

45:33

that we're going to have a

45:35

period of time where interest rates are just not really

45:37

keeping up with inflation. If you're holding

45:39

currency or bonds, you get kind of gradually

45:41

devalued. Technology

45:43

– and part of what disguises the inflation is

45:46

that we think of inflation as

45:48

being compared to zero. But the

45:50

baseline inflation rate is negative because over

45:52

time technology gets better, things get cheaper

45:54

to produce. But they go

45:56

up in price anyway because of how we run our

45:59

money. And so any sort

46:01

of technological gain is also contributes

46:03

to the possibility of soft landing

46:06

because as you get better at making

46:08

stuff, if you're running money supply growth

46:10

at 10% but you're

46:12

5% more productive at making things every year, then

46:14

actual prices on average might only be going up

46:17

at 5% per year. That's kind

46:19

of historically how countries try to grow out of this

46:21

type of situation, but normally they

46:23

don't do so without a pretty big currency

46:25

devaluation along the way. And

46:27

that generally shows up in whatever is

46:29

scarce. So generally the high

46:32

quality assets go up a lot in currency

46:34

in those environments. If

46:36

you get any sort of dislocation

46:38

in energy production for a period of time,

46:40

like if you're just not growing or

46:43

a cap-ex is not happening and you

46:45

get a currency devaluation, that can show

46:47

up in higher prices. That's generally what

46:49

triggers pain in emerging markets

46:51

is some of their key importance get very

46:53

expensive. So

46:55

there are ways to kind of smooth

46:57

it out over a long period of time,

46:59

but it's very hard to kind of structurally

47:02

fix it until there's basically a

47:04

big change in how taxes are done,

47:06

spending's done, and probably the overall currency

47:08

level as we kind of know it

47:11

now. Every time we have you on,

47:13

I think to myself, why don't we have Lynn

47:15

on every week? This has

47:17

been fantastic. Lynn

47:20

is a full-time investor, independent analyst and author

47:22

of Broken Money, Why Our Financial System Is

47:24

Failing Us, and How We Can Make

47:27

It Better. Her work has been featured in the Wall

47:29

Street Journal of Business Insider, MarketWatch, and CNBC. She's

47:32

also served as a consultant to

47:34

startup companies, head funds, and executive

47:36

committees. You can find her research

47:39

at Lynn Alden, L-Y-N-A-L-D-E-N dot

47:41

com. She joins us from, Lynn, where

47:43

are you? I'm in New Jersey. New Jersey!

47:46

And you say it with pride. Well done.

47:49

You say it with pride. Lynn, thanks so much for your time.

47:51

This was fascinating. Thanks, Lynn. Thank

47:54

you. After

48:02

a while. I'll

48:04

be some more time with men

48:07

discussing, just sit and generally discussing

48:09

gets. I want to stay

48:11

on that theme. But switch.

48:14

To personal you often cited debt is

48:16

a double edged sword. He say will

48:18

that as a weapon but don't let

48:20

a cart you can you elaborate on

48:22

that idea sir. So there is good

48:24

Dad and most financial advisors will say

48:27

to have your data as the enemy,

48:29

but the wealthiest people in the world

48:31

leverage that Apple which never needs to

48:33

have data as use hundreds of billions

48:35

and debt and good that takes on

48:38

a couple different types of complex and

48:40

one it's investment yourself a limited amount

48:42

of that in pursuit. Of a degree that

48:44

I think you know where you get to

48:46

serve occasional pay off I borrowed i think fifteen

48:48

thousand dollars to get through business school which

48:50

is a lot of money I'd spent a

48:52

suit are alive for me. The

48:55

other type of dad is for assets

48:57

civil, appreciate in value. And that is

48:59

okay. I'm buying a home. I get

49:02

a mortgage for six percent. And.

49:04

It's going to force me to save

49:06

some money. I'm gonna move live in

49:08

it and potentially I sent i sank

49:10

that to price may go up at

49:13

the same rate for ideally more so

49:15

occasionally having some dad if it's low

49:17

interest and friendly and you're using the

49:19

proceeds to invest in something that oh

49:21

grow faster than and straight on the

49:23

dad that is what you call good

49:25

that what is bad debt. using.

49:28

Death for consumption. Oh,

49:30

I really want to go to Stagecoach. Does

49:32

he know I love country music and it's

49:34

my dream to see Willie Nelson and Post

49:36

Malone. None of that is true at that's

49:38

the wrong thing to use that for. So.

49:41

death for consumption i think is a

49:43

bad idea because he had put you

49:46

in a place where the credit markets

49:48

are these companies will convince you that

49:50

it's not real money if feals it

49:53

doesn't kill nearly as painful and the

49:55

temptation or something amazing sick hapless economy

49:57

offers you the just be very careful

50:00

about getting into any sort of debt

50:02

for consumption. Good debt is low interest

50:04

rate debt that either enhances your ability

50:06

to make more money in the future or

50:09

you can invest in things that likely over

50:11

the medium and long term have shown a

50:13

track record of returns that are

50:15

greater than that debt. Does that make

50:17

sense? Absolutely. This

50:21

episode was produced by Claire Miller and

50:23

engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producers,

50:25

Alison Weiss, our executive producers, Jason Stavas

50:27

and Catherine Dillon. Mia Silveri

50:29

is our research lead and Drew Burrows is

50:31

our technical director. Thank you for

50:34

listening to ProfG Markets from the Vox Media Podcast

50:36

Network. We'll be back with a fresh take on

50:38

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51:16

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51:33

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51:35

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51:37

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51:39

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51:41

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51:43

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