0:00

I'm Rachel Martin. After hosting Morning Edition

0:02

for years, I know that the news

0:04

can wear you down. So we made

0:06

a new podcast called Wild Card, where

0:08

a special deck of cards and a

0:11

whole bunch of fascinating guests help us

0:13

sort out what makes life meaningful. It's

0:15

part game show, part existential deep dive,

0:18

and it is seriously fun. Join me

0:20

on Wild Card, wherever you get your

0:22

podcasts, only from NPR. This

0:26

is a CBC Podcast. Hey,

0:31

I'm Talia Schlanger. Sitting in for Tom Power, you're

0:33

listening to Q. If you've ever

0:35

tried this, you'll know that starting over

0:38

can be so, so hard, especially when

0:40

you finally reached a place that you

0:42

dreamed about since you were a kid. That's

0:45

the situation Canadian musician Jamie Fine found

0:47

herself in. She was part of a

0:49

duo called Elijah Woods ex Jamie Fine.

0:52

They found a ton of success after

0:54

they were featured on this reality competition

0:56

show called The Launch, which they won.

0:59

They were all over Canadian radio. They

1:01

were headlining festivals. And

1:03

then soon after finding success, Jamie

1:05

realized that the way it all

1:07

went down just wasn't sitting right

1:09

with her. So she left

1:12

her band, she left her management and

1:14

started again from scratch and

1:16

her solo project was born. When

1:19

I was high, we're feeling low. When

1:21

I was high, we're getting cold. Now

1:24

this house doesn't feel like home. So

1:26

where do I go? Cause you are

1:28

that I know. That's

1:34

Jamie Fine with There You Go from

1:36

her new EP called If This Is It. Jamie

1:39

dropped by the Q studio recently to talk

1:41

to Tom Power about the EP and

1:43

her whole story. Have a listen. How

1:47

are you? I'm amazing. Thanks for having me. We have half an

1:49

hour to trauma dump. So you'll know me

1:51

by the end of the interview. You

1:54

may not see that on a t-shirt that says

1:56

half hour to trauma dump. That is crazy merch,

1:58

dude. We

2:00

were just talking Ottawa, Center

2:03

Point you said? Center Point's where I was raised, yeah.

2:05

And dad was

2:07

a musician? Dad was, I mean,

2:09

both my parents were lawyers growing up, my

2:12

dad, you know, government, human rights, but my

2:14

dad is a beautiful

2:17

classical piano player. So we grew

2:19

up with like the over the rainbow type stuff that,

2:21

you know, he would just kind of doodle

2:23

and Lauren, my sister and I would just

2:26

stare and be like, oh my God, and then we went

2:28

into piano lessons. And then my piano

2:30

teacher told me I was going nowhere. And I was six.

2:32

Is that true? Yep, that's the end of that.

2:34

Thanks Tim. There's him. Tim,

2:36

if you're watching this, screw you buddy. Hold

2:39

on, you were six years old on your

2:41

piano business. I was like six or seven dude.

2:43

And he was like, you're not going anywhere. And like at

2:45

six or seven, I'm not gonna be like, I'll show you

2:47

Tim. I was like, okay, bye. Hold on, who's going

2:49

anywhere at six or seven? You're right. What was

2:52

he doing saying that to somebody? I don't know,

2:54

dude, he was not it. So when do you

2:56

start singing? Our

2:58

old nanny, when we were

3:00

really young, told

3:02

this story when I was a teenager that

3:05

when I was younger, she would take me to daycare

3:07

and I would stand at the front of daycare and

3:10

sing Oh Canada, which is hilarious to me because I

3:12

refuse to play. It's like I'm asked all the time

3:14

to sing at games and I refuse because I always

3:16

forget the lyrics and I'm not about to do that

3:18

to my country. People do not know it's actually one of

3:21

the most stressful things a musician can do. It's

3:23

the word. There's so much pressure on you. When

3:25

you see those people who have forgotten the lyrics and

3:28

who are in the bad games, feel bad for them. Yeah, that's crazy.

3:31

Because yeah, most people, they didn't do

3:33

that when they were practicing at home. Anyway,

3:35

sorry. It's too much pressure and I'm not going to

3:37

do that to a national anthem and so I

3:39

still don't really believe that story but

3:41

apparently, supposedly, that's when I started singing.

3:45

And then it was grade seven. I think I was singing in the

3:47

shower. I got out of the shower, got dressed, got ready for school.

3:49

My dad was like, I think you could sing kiddo and at

3:51

that point, we had a little bit of a tough relationship and

3:54

he was always a man of few words and

3:56

it was the thing that we started bonding over was me

3:59

being able to do music. So I went to school

4:01

that day and I asked the teacher that worked there who

4:03

did the music program, you know, do you have any recording

4:05

equipment? And he started helping me right away. So

4:07

12, I would say. Yeah, it's pretty young.

4:10

Did you know that you had a voice that you

4:12

have? Did you have some awareness of that? I

4:14

think it took me a while to get

4:16

like confident in my voice. I

4:18

was, I think I just didn't know. I was

4:21

always, I was a very insecure kid too,

4:23

right? So once I found it, I

4:25

was just bullied a lot, you know, it was this, yeah,

4:27

it's, you know, you lose something, you lose something. When

4:30

I, I think all throughout my life, I just didn't know who

4:32

I was. I really, there was a

4:34

direct correlation between me being bullied and having no

4:36

idea who I was. And

4:39

so I think music as corny,

4:41

cliche as it sounds, that's what really helped me get

4:43

there. And so when I first started hearing my own

4:45

voice, because I was so insecure about everything else in

4:47

my life, I was insecure about that too, until I

4:49

started using it as a little bit more of a

4:51

healthy thing in my life. And then I was like,

4:53

oh, I'm going to rely on this instead of it,

4:55

you know, instead of attaching it to something

4:57

that's bad, I'm going to attach it to something that's

4:59

good. When you say I didn't know

5:01

who I was, what does that mean? I think I just,

5:03

you know, I wrote

5:06

this song last year called Mistaken

5:08

and it's really me coming

5:10

to terms with the fact that I felt my whole life

5:12

I was mistaken. I was very misunderstood. I think I

5:14

was a different kid. I was very creative. I grew up

5:16

in a family that was very academic. And

5:20

I think that I have,

5:23

you know, I'm pretty hard headed. I'm that person in the

5:25

room that somebody's like, you should do this. And I'm like,

5:27

why? And they're like, because. And

5:29

I'm like, well, that's not good enough. And I've always been

5:31

that way. I'm still that way at 30. And

5:34

I think that didn't bode well, you know, for a

5:36

lot of people, especially in authority positions. So

5:39

when you start singing, people are giving

5:41

you attention. They're giving you love. They're

5:43

giving you praise, maybe something

5:46

that you hadn't experienced before. Never. And

5:48

you start to feel like, hey, I got something here. And it

5:50

was for me, like, you know, it wasn't for anybody else. And

5:52

I think that's what I love about my journey with music is

5:54

that it wasn't me constantly

5:57

seeking validation from other people. It was just.

5:59

getting it very organically because I was doing something

6:02

that I felt good doing, and that's pretty rare.

6:04

["I Want to Cover Up My Scars"] What's

6:26

the story on this talent show that I've been reading

6:28

about that was like a very transformative moment for you?

6:30

The challenge show in grade seven.

6:33

I sang Natasha Bettinger's Unwritten. I

6:35

don't know that, do I know that song? Yeah, well. How does

6:37

it go? Okay, fine, I'll sing it for you, twist my

6:40

arm, jeez. Um, it's the, it's the,

6:43

staring at the blank page before you open

6:45

up the dirty window, and it was such

6:47

a banger, but then it gets to the

6:49

higher octave. Yeah. ["I Want

6:51

to Cover Up My Scars"]

6:58

And I couldn't sing the higher octave, so

7:00

I just dropped it. I was very, it's like climactic,

7:02

you know? The whole point of that song is when

7:05

it gets loud. Did

7:07

the crowd go crazy? Oh, they loved it, and I

7:09

think that what was, I mean, listen, Go Great wasn't

7:11

like a festival performance here, but I

7:13

think that it was the first time people saw me

7:15

kind of come into myself when

7:18

the whole school knew that I was bullied,

7:20

you know? All the teachers knew that I was bullied, all

7:22

the kids were part of it or just felt bad

7:24

for me, and it was the first time they saw me

7:27

in this setting where they were like, oh,

7:30

she's cool, and it's the first time I ever

7:32

experienced that in my life, you know? Were they

7:34

nicer to you afterwards? I

7:37

think that was inevitable, I don't really remember.

7:39

I think it was inevitable, yeah, I started

7:42

finding my people, some of which I acknowledged

7:44

pretty early on were just there because they

7:46

wanted to attach themselves to me, and

7:48

other people because I, you know, I

7:51

always say that we're never gonna eliminate

7:53

bullying. That's part of life, it's part of

7:55

figuring out who you are, and when I

7:57

figured out who I was, there was a

7:59

direct. as there was a direct correlation between

8:01

me being bullied and not knowing who I was,

8:03

there was a direct correlation of finding my people

8:06

and not being bullied, especially as much, when

8:08

I figured out who I was. How could

8:10

I expect other people to be able to define me

8:12

if I don't know how to define myself, right? So

8:15

can you explain to me why you ended up doing

8:17

culinary arts and not music when you got out of

8:19

school? Yeah, I- Because it sounds to me like, no

8:21

shade to the culinary arts. They're

8:23

fine arts. Yeah, they're fine arts. Well, they're

8:26

not fine arts, but they're good arts. Yeah.

8:28

That should be on Monet.

8:32

Come to culinary school, it's good arts. Yeah, good

8:35

arts, not fine arts, but it's good arts. Why

8:37

did you, you decided not to do music.

8:40

So I wanted to do music, I'm lazy, and

8:42

every single- I don't believe that. No, no,

8:44

no, no, just trust me. If there's something

8:46

I'm passionate about, you will not outwork me.

8:49

Yeah, I get that. If there's something I don't wanna do, I'm

8:51

the laziest person you've ever met. And when it

8:53

came to music, I just wanted to sing, I

8:55

wanted to write songs, I wanted to learn about

8:57

music itself, and every program that I had looked

8:59

at, my parents were really, they had said, we

9:02

want you to go to school. And I was like, okay, it's not that

9:04

I don't wanna go to school, I just don't know what I wanna do. And

9:07

there was this like, tiff

9:09

between university and college, and I knew that

9:12

my brain was more catered

9:14

towards college, like that

9:16

way of learning, more hands-on.

9:18

And when I looked at music programs, it

9:22

was like theory, music theory. I don't

9:24

wanna learn how to read notes, man. I

9:26

just wanna play. And so

9:28

I was like, you know what? Let's find something else that

9:30

I'm passionate about. And I was really passionate about cooking, and

9:33

I still am. One of my biggest dreams is to open

9:35

a restaurant still. So you're in culinary school. Is that where

9:37

you meet Elijah? Yep, he

9:39

was in, not culinary school. I was in culinary school, I was working

9:41

at the college, and he was in

9:43

the music industry arts program. And you meet one

9:45

another and start singing, or start writing, or? Yeah,

9:47

I think that we started writing together, and I started,

9:49

you know, he was the first producer I had kind

9:51

of met that was bringing my vision of songs to

9:54

life, because I'm not a producer, I

9:56

never had that talent. And so he was

9:58

the first person that really... was able

10:00

to bring out the emotion that I was trying

10:02

to, he could emulate the emotion I was trying

10:04

to bring out through my top lines and the

10:06

words and the melodies. That's the road

10:08

that don't know how I lost it. Hope

10:11

you'll come back, finish what we

10:13

started. Now it's hard, but

10:16

girl, I did it all for you.

10:19

A good connection, right? Yeah, beautiful right

10:21

away. How does the launch

10:23

thing happen? The launch

10:25

from what I remember is, it's this

10:27

reality show, singing show in Canada. The

10:31

conceit of it was really interesting. There

10:33

would be a song written by somebody, I

10:35

think it was Ryan Tedder your year. I

10:38

should say Ryan Tedder, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Adele. Big

10:42

deal. Paul McCartney. Yeah,

10:44

all the big ones. So he writes a song,

10:48

with the winner of the contest, we'll get to sing

10:50

that song. How did you end up on that show?

10:54

It wasn't an easy process. We

10:56

were kind of scouted for it or

10:58

headhunted for it. You were already singing together, you were

11:00

already making music together. Yeah, we had just released. We

11:02

had never done a gig before, and we

11:04

had just released. So initially when Elijah and I met,

11:07

we just wanted to write music for other people and

11:09

be writers. And

11:11

then we had met my former

11:13

first manager, and he was

11:15

like, the music's too good, you gotta do it yourselves. And

11:17

so we started this group, and

11:20

we released a song or

11:22

two or three, and then we were headhunted for this

11:25

program. And right off

11:27

the bat, pretty transparently, I was like,

11:30

this isn't the way I believe in doing music. This

11:32

isn't what I wanna do. And

11:34

there was a lot of back and forth, and it was really tough.

11:37

What were your trepidations? So many.

11:39

I think music television is music television, Canadian

11:41

music television is a whole other thing. I

11:45

think that, I remember my

11:47

old manager coming to me and saying, this is gonna

11:49

get us where we wanna go faster. And I'm like,

11:51

I completely don't believe in that. That is the last

11:53

thing I believe in. I don't believe in skipping steps,

11:56

because I think you have to go back and retrace them anyway.

11:58

Yeah, it doesn't, I just don't. I don't think it

12:01

builds a firm foundation. And so

12:03

I think I was worried, I wasn't worried about

12:05

winning the show. I think we were pretty confident we

12:07

were gonna do that. I was worried about a year

12:09

later when we felt stuck. And I was

12:11

like, I don't think we can make a decision for the moment here.

12:14

I think we have to look ahead. And

12:17

it was tough. It was something that I was

12:19

very firm about not wanting to do and felt

12:22

like I had to. Sure, it was

12:24

an amazing experience. And I don't, you know. You

12:26

won? Yeah, we won. Pun

12:29

intended launched us. But the

12:31

very real things that I was worried about

12:33

happening after virtually all

12:35

of them ended up happening. Well,

12:37

let me just set the stage here. Can we play

12:39

the, just play the song from that time. Yeah, let's

12:41

do it. Let's take a listen to this. I

12:44

said, I think you're waiting, baby. Baby,

12:49

you would have craved and I

12:51

wouldn't want to waste it. Late

12:55

at night when I need more, you are damn

12:58

late and I need more, you take me away.

13:02

Take me away, see loving

13:04

you, baby. Man, that song was everywhere. It was

13:07

a banger. It was a banger. It's

13:09

a great song and it was everywhere. I mean, let me

13:11

just say what it is. That's Ain't Easy by Elijah Woods

13:13

and Jamie Fine. Elijah Woods, X, Jamie

13:15

Fine. That would become your big first hit

13:17

after the launch. So yeah, millions of streams,

13:19

millions of streams. A lot of Canadian radio.

13:22

Huge, huge. So compare it to ask me

13:24

what was, what everyone was expecting

13:26

to happen and what actually happened. I

13:28

think that, you know, I

13:31

think that what everyone expected to happen was we were gonna

13:33

be launched into fame and we were. The

13:35

parts that I had kind

13:38

of thought about that I didn't feel were

13:40

thought about by everybody else was that we

13:42

were gonna be locked into a deal because

13:44

that's music television with

13:46

potentially like people that we didn't know anything

13:48

about, right? We didn't know how their work

13:50

ethic, we didn't know how they worked. And so we

13:52

didn't know if that was gonna be the right fit for us,

13:54

but we would have that taken away from us, that choice. I

13:57

was worried about that, that happened. I

13:59

was worried about the. I think that

14:01

stigma. Yeah, the stigma of music television, people

14:03

who do music television. And

14:06

there were, you know, I've talked to artists since

14:08

Canadian artists who did have a really hard time

14:10

with Elijah and I because we win the show,

14:12

they've been working for years at their career and

14:14

all of a sudden Elijah and I get all

14:17

the festival spots and we get the radio spot

14:19

and this and that and the other because it

14:21

was, you know, it's like, it was one of those things

14:23

that they saw us in the same

14:26

way I saw us that like, oh, we just kind

14:28

of cheated the system a little bit, right? And

14:30

I think that there's things that

14:32

are wrong with that tangibly, admittedly, and there's

14:34

things that are not wrong with it. There's things

14:36

that are totally okay with that. But I

14:38

think what happened afterwards is it was, oh,

14:41

Elijah and Jamie, they're here because they won a TV show.

14:43

And that was why we were there. Were you not taken

14:45

seriously? Yeah, I think in a lot of ways we weren't

14:47

and I've been told that by many people, right? I think

14:49

that for me, it was like, oh,

14:52

is this just something that's in my head? And then

14:54

I would talk to other artists and I would talk

14:56

to other producers and I received that information that like,

14:58

yeah, it was tough for people to watch. People have

15:00

been working for years and years

15:02

at their career. And here we

15:04

came and just kind of got all the spots

15:06

right away. I feel like I want to argue

15:08

with you. Do it, do it, let's go. It's

15:10

your experience. I can't argue with your experience, but

15:12

like I was in this

15:14

job that was happening. I remember listening to it and

15:16

going, and this is not, I would, if

15:19

I didn't believe it, I just wouldn't say anything at all. No, of

15:21

course. I remember listening, I

15:23

remember when you guys won and listening to the song.

15:26

And my partner was working as a top-liner at the time.

15:29

And she said, you should listen to this. And I remember listening to it.

15:31

And I remember thinking, oh good, good people

15:33

want it. Which is, a

15:35

lot of people said that, which was beautiful. Oh good,

15:37

good people want it. Oh, this thing actually is doing

15:39

the thing that it should do for people who need

15:42

it. Or people, yeah, people who deserve it. Oh, there's

15:44

a, oh good, there's a good song because I can

15:46

tell you in like the history of Canadian Idol and

15:48

the history of all these things, like how many good

15:50

songs have we really gotten out of it? So

15:52

that was my impression that like, oh, it

15:54

did the thing it was supposed to do.

15:56

Yeah, but unfortunately behind the scenes it wasn't,

15:59

right? that's such a struggle. And so that's

16:01

what I mean is that's the part that

16:03

I'm thankful for is that I think the

16:05

thing, I don't want this to sound

16:07

like it's coming from a egotistical or conceited place. Elijah

16:09

and I could back up with talent. We were good

16:11

at what we did. And that's why, yeah. And

16:15

so, you know, you get

16:17

a lot of people who win the show and

16:19

then it's like, oh, you can't really perform and

16:21

you can't really write a song and this and

16:23

that. The other, I wrote a lot of Ain't

16:25

Easy. I was a huge co-writer on that song

16:27

because we took the song back and said, this

16:29

doesn't fit what I like. And I rewrote the

16:31

verses, I rewrote some of the melody. I felt

16:34

like I contributed. And so it wasn't, our experience

16:36

for the actual show itself, people had compliment that

16:38

a lot saying that like, oh, you actually like

16:40

did something. Yeah. So that part- It

16:42

was unexpected. Oh yeah. To be honest, it

16:45

was unexpected that it was that good. First

16:47

of all, I appreciate that. Secondly, it was

16:49

unexpected for us and we loved it. We

16:51

loved it. I feel very guilty saying this

16:53

to you. No, no, no, no, no. Listen,

16:55

this is a safe space. But they're compliments,

16:57

they're compliments. Beautiful things. Everybody gets to feel

16:59

their own way about it, right? I think

17:01

the thing is, is that the parts that

17:03

you say you loved about it, I too

17:05

loved it. It was everything that followed that

17:07

was really difficult to navigate. And

17:09

that's what kind of took away from the experience for me. Is that

17:11

why, and I only talk about this as much as you want, is

17:13

that why you guys split up? I

17:15

left after a while just

17:18

feeling really unaligned. You know,

17:20

I see the music industry differently. I

17:22

see the world differently and that has to be

17:24

okay. Yeah. I think that the

17:27

path he wanted to take was very far from the path

17:29

that I wanted to take and vice versa, he believed the

17:31

same. I was just able to

17:33

walk away, you know? So

17:36

I think it contributed, the resentment of

17:38

the show contributed to it. But

17:41

no, I think ultimately it wasn't that.

17:43

It was just more pressing kind of issues between

17:45

us and between the team that I was working

17:47

with. Not an easy decision. Ain't

17:49

easy. Not an easy decision, not an

17:52

unemotional decision. No. You

17:54

know, those formative, stepping away from

17:56

the formative group, courageous

17:58

thing to do. So you leave

18:00

the project with Elijah. Elijah,

18:03

I think I've been sitting around the

18:05

whole time. Who knows? You leave your management? Yeah. I

18:07

don't want to get into the degree I'm at, Nor

18:10

do I. No one can ever tell me the answer. I

18:12

could ask any band, why did you guys

18:14

break up? And they'll be like, oh, well, you

18:16

know, Dave, he wanted to move back to Surrey.

18:19

And we had to say, oh, yeah, you left your management. I

18:22

don't want to talk about it. Yeah,

18:25

no different story here. I'm not allowed to talk

18:28

about it. We'll get you in trouble. We can cut

18:30

that out too. That's good. Also, not

18:32

a shortage of change in your life. Not

18:35

a shortage of change. Yeah, a lot of changes. You

18:38

stepped away from music, stepped away

18:40

from the public eye. Yeah. I

18:42

think, um. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, of

18:44

course. I'm pretty, as you can tell, a pretty open book

18:46

here. I always

18:49

say this. So in

18:51

2016 or 2017,

18:53

I had a really bad mental breakdown. And

18:56

it was like everything, all

18:58

the cliche that is a

19:00

mental breakdown. Anxiety, depression. Yeah, and I couldn't

19:02

get out of bed and started intense therapy.

19:04

Sorry. And it's the best thing that ever happened

19:06

to me. Yeah, I know what you mean. And I think a lot of

19:08

people who go through that and are out of it can say

19:10

that, right? And I

19:12

had always said that that was the toughest year

19:15

of my life until I left

19:17

Elijah and my management and everybody. That

19:21

took the cake for one or two of the hardest

19:23

years of my life. And

19:25

I think nothing

19:27

in my life felt like I was in control.

19:31

And I had lost myself. The thing that I

19:33

pride myself on the most is that I'm unforgivably

19:35

me. And I will always be unforgivable. That's why

19:37

I got in so much crap as a kid, right? Because I

19:39

was unforgivably me. That's the story of this conversation. Literally. And

19:44

I lost my way during the years that I

19:46

worked with that team. And

19:49

it was one of the most upsetting and devastating things

19:51

that I had come to realize because I had to

19:53

take accountability for it. And so it

19:55

wasn't just saying, this happened to me. It was me saying,

19:57

this happened to me and I let it happen. And there's

19:59

no one. else to blame but me. And that

20:01

was really hard for me. And that process of

20:04

undoing a

20:06

lot of what had happened to me the previous

20:08

few years, which a lot of things can build

20:10

up over that time, I had to

20:12

let go of those things and grieve walking

20:14

away from two people that I had previously

20:16

really cared about. And it

20:19

was like all these really tough things happening, which

20:22

a lot of them were on me, a lot of them weren't.

20:24

Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. I have to deal

20:26

with it. You know what I mean? Like who cares at that point? You just

20:28

have to deal with it. There's nothing worse though than

20:31

the feeling that you got somewhere because of

20:33

you or yourself and then when you got

20:35

it, you stopped being yourself. It's

20:37

the worst. It's everything

20:39

that I promised I would never do. And then

20:41

all of a sudden I wake up one day

20:43

realize I had gone against everything that

20:45

I had said. And what I will say

20:48

is the process getting out of that, I've

20:51

never felt more authentic and I've never felt more

20:53

grounded. And I did the work. I did five

20:56

years of intense psychoanalyzm to freaking out your

20:58

shadow of Cecilia. The process of healing from

21:00

that, the process of getting better from that,

21:02

the process of moving on from that I

21:04

should say, is

21:06

the process of learning how to be

21:08

yourself again. 100%. And it's

21:10

hard. It's hard. It's not easy. It's just it's worth it. And I

21:12

can say that it's easier for me to say it's worth it because

21:15

I'm on the other side of it. But while

21:17

you're in it, it's probably

21:19

some of the hardest work I've ever done.

21:21

Most valuable, but damn near

21:24

unsurvivable. And it's not linear. You might be

21:26

good for three weeks and then or three

21:28

months and then one Thursday it's all gone.

21:30

I literally got this tattoo. It starts from my

21:32

neck and goes all the way down to my hand. I was

21:34

wondering what that was. Because my mom taught me that what

21:37

she taught me is that karma is not linear. Don't

21:39

wait for people's demise. It's not linear. Let karma take

21:41

care of itself. And what that intern taught me is

21:43

that life isn't linear and you it ebbs and flows

21:45

and you can't control that. And so control how you

21:47

can react to it. I'm

21:55

feeling so anxious, trying to

21:57

change it. My

22:00

friends are all losing their

22:02

patience, constantly complaining, traded and

22:04

I hate it, uninspired craving,

22:06

it's such a motivation. How

22:08

do I say this?

22:12

I'm seconds away from me breaking. So

22:14

much energy in her voice. That's

22:16

Jamie Fine with seconds away from her

22:19

new EP, If This Is It. I'm

22:21

Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Tom Power.

22:23

More of Tom's conversation with Jamie Fine

22:25

after this. Are

22:28

you ever minding your own business and start

22:30

to wonder, is the Great Pacific garbage patch

22:32

real? How do the Northern Lights happen? Why

22:34

is weed not legal yet? I'm Jonathan Van

22:36

Ness and every week on Getting Curious, I

22:39

sit down for a gorgeous conversation with a

22:41

brilliant expert to learn all about something that

22:43

makes me curious. Join me every Wednesday as

22:45

we set off on a stunning journey of

22:47

curiosity on a new subject and

22:50

dive into the archive of more than 370 episodes. Listen

22:54

to Getting Curious wherever you get your

22:56

podcasts. Hey,

23:07

I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for

23:09

Tom Power. You're listening to Q.

23:11

You're in the middle of Tom's

23:13

conversation with Ottawa's very own Jamie

23:15

Fine, Ottawa, Ontario, that is. Jamie

23:17

made her career as part of

23:20

a duo called Elijah Woods ex

23:22

Jamie Fine. They won this singing

23:24

competition show, The Launch. And they

23:26

were, as the title promises, launched

23:28

into fame. But soon after, Jamie

23:30

realized that her values and her

23:32

creative vision weren't quite in line

23:34

with what was happening. So she

23:37

left her band. She left her

23:39

management. She took a hiatus to

23:41

grieve those relationships. And eventually, she

23:43

came back with this song. I

23:46

give you the world. I don't take

23:48

it off only. Whatever you

23:50

want, you can have for

23:53

free. I would

23:55

give anything and everything. If anything's

23:57

left, it's yours to keep. That

24:01

is, If Anything's Left by Jamie

24:04

Fine. That song became

24:06

the biggest hit of Jamie's career, to date,

24:09

we'll say. Tom Power asked her about writing

24:11

it, and that's where their conversation picks up.

24:15

I made a name for myself

24:17

writing pretty dark and depressing music. I'm pretty good at

24:19

that. And

24:21

I met somebody coming out of

24:23

what we just spoke about, you know, two of the hardest

24:25

years of my life. And I finally

24:28

was able to kind of love in a way that I had

24:30

never been able to before. My partner

24:32

walked in my life, Vic,

24:34

and she taught me a

24:37

lot of things, but

24:39

primarily that I deserve to be loved.

24:41

And as emotional as that may sound,

24:43

she really showed that through her behavior

24:45

for the first time. That's

24:47

not basic at all. That's a powerful realization. It was

24:50

beautiful. And I

24:52

was in a studio session in L.A. and I

24:55

had said, I want to try to, I want

24:57

to write a happy song. I don't want

24:59

to write dark and depressing music right now. I want to write a happy song and I want to

25:01

write it for her. And I want

25:04

to write a song where two minutes and 42 seconds or

25:06

however long that song is, everybody's

25:08

just frickin' happy. It's okay. Nothing

25:10

else matters. You're just happy. And that's what that song

25:12

is for me. It's for her. And it's this kind

25:15

of like, thank you for, you know, showing me that

25:17

I deserve to be loved. I

25:19

went on

25:23

to the thing at the

25:25

bottom where you click it

25:27

on and you can see

25:30

the top cities. Oh,

25:38

yeah. And I didn't know this because Vanessa hadn't told

25:40

me this yet that Vanessa, our producer, hadn't told me

25:42

this yet that you're Vanessa. We love you. I

25:46

saw the number one country was South Africa. And

25:50

then Vanessa tells me that your music is

25:52

blowing up in South Africa. How did that

25:54

happen? Social media. It's

25:56

a powerful thing. TikTok is, you know, it's going to be

25:59

the... at the end of me, I think,

26:01

but it's also, you know, something we need

26:03

to be really thankful for. And I posted the first

26:05

video of If Anything's Left, and it was the first

26:07

time I had had a viral moment on TikTok. And

26:10

it went absolutely viral. In

26:13

many countries in the world, South Africa

26:15

was like on another level. And

26:20

I think they were this front runner for pushing the

26:22

song in a really big way. Had

26:25

you been there before? Never. It wasn't

26:27

even on my bucket list. Like I didn't even really,

26:29

I never thought, I never gave South Africa, I thought

26:31

it wasn't somewhere that I've ever thought about visiting. That

26:33

happened too. Do you know Neon Dreams? Yes, of course.

26:35

Neon Dreams from Halifax, that happened to them too. They

26:38

had a good

26:40

amount of success here in Canada, in the US, and

26:42

then they just blew up in South Africa. And I

26:44

talked to them extensively about it because we were

26:47

like, what's going on? And their experience with

26:49

that country was so beautiful. I

26:51

had said, I don't wanna be one of the, you

26:53

know, we look at like the realm of music right

26:55

now and how many like TikTok artists there are, right?

26:58

I'm not a TikTok artist, I'm an artist. Because

27:00

you don't wanna only sell 300 seats? Exactly,

27:03

exactly. Not to be glib, but that's kind of a

27:05

thing. A lot of this is not translating into careers

27:07

for artists. It's not, you sit in your basement and

27:10

you write and that's beautiful making content, but then you

27:12

get on stage and you can't emulate it and you

27:14

don't have tangible fans. I don't wanna be that artist.

27:16

And so I had said, we're getting

27:18

our ass to South Africa. We're not doing this thing where

27:20

we blow up in a country and we say, thank you

27:22

so much, this was beautiful, thank you. No, we're getting on

27:24

a plane and we're going to South Africa.

27:26

And so we went. Tell me the story of

27:28

the first gig. We went and

27:30

played this festival called Beefstalk Music Fest and it

27:33

was this woman who brought us out, Larnie and

27:35

Lorraine. We hopped on a plane, not knowing anything.

27:39

That's a long flight. Cape Town? No,

27:41

we went to Johannesburg, just outside of it.

27:43

And it's like, we just kept flying, man.

27:45

Like you just keep flying and you're like,

27:47

the world's not this big, there's no way.

27:50

And 20 hours later, we get there and

27:53

we got on stage and

27:56

I always

27:58

try to be really careful because... because

28:00

I'm so thankful being from Canada and

28:02

I praise Canada often and I love,

28:04

I'm really proud that I'm from here.

28:08

The career that I have in South Africa is what I've been

28:10

chasing in Canada for years. Really? So

28:12

what did the crowd look like when you got up? It was insane. I think it

28:14

was 4,500 people singing

28:18

not just if anything's left,

28:21

but a lot of the

28:23

music because they went and looked at the catalog. It

28:25

wasn't just a TikTok moment. I

28:27

gained tangible fans. And

28:30

we got on stage and I've never had that feeling

28:32

in my life. It's everything that I've been chasing. I

29:00

would give anything, everything, anything

29:03

that is yours to keep. Does

29:05

that inspire you more when you get back or does

29:07

that make you want to stay there? No, it inspires

29:09

me more at Kissing Pushing. I'm a very like, okay,

29:11

use this as fuel. Yeah. And

29:13

so, no, I think, yeah, it made

29:16

us really want to chase other countries. It made

29:18

us say, okay, what more work do we have

29:20

to do domestically? What more work do we have

29:22

to do here in Canada? It was, yeah, it

29:24

was really good for us. Can I ask a

29:26

hard question? Of course, can. What's not lost on

29:28

me is that everything you were just talking about

29:30

to me, that like, hey, I lost myself and

29:32

there were these expectations put on me and I

29:34

started to act like somebody else and I had

29:36

to step away all around Jamie Fine. Jamie Fine,

29:38

someone you sort of perform on stage, right? And

29:40

on social media and TikTok. And I understand you're

29:42

an open book. I understand you're very open and

29:44

honest. But I think we're always

29:46

someone different at home than

29:49

we are with in our public face. I

29:51

can see you smiling at me. But like,

29:53

we're always someone different at home than we

29:55

are in our day-to-day lives or in our

29:57

jobs or in our other stuff. And

29:59

I think that when you go... through a crisis like that because I

30:01

can relate to it. When you

30:03

go through a crisis like that, it

30:06

makes you think differently about who

30:08

you really are versus the person you

30:10

perform to be or the person you're

30:12

comfortable showing to the public. Do

30:15

you have any sense of who you are at home and

30:17

who you are outside of the home? I

30:20

have a smile on my face because one of the

30:22

things that I've always said I wanted to be

30:24

is try to finally break that barrier of like

30:26

I want to be unforgivably me in every setting

30:29

and I think that because

30:32

I found myself on stage,

30:34

stage is where I'm most me versus

30:37

the other way around. You're not

30:39

a character or everything. That's great. No, no,

30:41

no, no, my god, I didn't take it that way. We're

30:43

not getting in our first fight. No,

30:45

I didn't take it like that at all. I think that's what I

30:48

lost in myself

30:50

is that I started performing but that's not

30:52

who I am. I've never had to perform

30:54

in my life because I'm unforgivable me. If

30:56

you come to a show, I am the

30:58

same person on the phone talking

31:00

to my friend, talking to a mom, talking

31:03

to everybody as I am on stage because that's

31:05

what I love about me. But you had to get

31:07

there. I think that's what was so tough is that I

31:11

was initially there. That was who I was

31:13

and then I lost that. I mean, I

31:15

have to take responsibility. I think

31:17

that part of it, yes, it was taken.

31:19

A lot of it was I gave it

31:21

up. It's an even keel of accountability and

31:23

also blame. Those two truths can exist at once for me.

31:25

I lost it during that few years

31:28

and building that back was the hardest

31:30

thing because putting on

31:32

a show, putting on a performance can sometimes be

31:34

easier. So what's the lesson? What's the

31:36

lesson as we are in a time when artists

31:38

are giving so much of

31:40

their authenticity on TikTok and on

31:42

Instagram and big

31:45

corporations are coming to them and saying, oh, we love

31:47

what you're doing and you're so authentic. Let's change a

31:50

little bit. Let's change a little bit and we'll give

31:52

you a bunch of money. What's the lesson? I

31:54

have always stayed firm. I think the

31:57

lesson is that it's not worth it. learn

32:00

that the easy way, you can learn it the

32:02

hard way. That is your prerogative. It is never

32:04

worth it. You will wake up whether it's a

32:06

day from now or 17 years

32:08

from now and you will learn the lesson on

32:10

your own at some point. That giving

32:12

up, that's why I love where I

32:15

landed in terms of my label and who I

32:17

work with at that label because they don't try

32:19

to change me. They know that

32:21

I don't care about money. They know I don't care about any

32:23

of that. I want to achieve something with my music. There

32:25

are two different kinds of artists in the world. There's people that

32:27

want to achieve something with their art and there's people that

32:29

want to use art as a catalyst for

32:32

something else they want to achieve. For

32:34

achievement. Yeah. And I am the former and

32:37

I will never change that about me. And so the lesson

32:39

is you will learn it. You'll learn your own lesson in

32:41

time, whether it's now or in the future and you

32:44

get to choose what path you want to go. I really enjoy

32:46

talking to you. I love you,

32:48

dude. Come on, I love you too. Did we just

32:50

go in with friends? Yeah, we did. We did. Thanks

32:52

for having me. Thanks for coming in.

32:59

That's Jamie Fine with Bulletproof.

33:01

Before that, you heard Tom

33:03

Powers' conversation with

33:24

Jamie Fine. Take away. The

33:27

lesson is you'll learn the lesson.

33:30

I love that. She didn't try to universalize

33:32

it. You'll learn your own lesson on your

33:34

own path. Jamie's new EP is called If

33:36

This Is It and it's out everywhere now.

33:39

That's it for this episode, but you can

33:41

find another podcast in your feed right now.

33:43

It's Tom's conversation with E.R. Fightmaster,

33:46

who played Dr. Kai

33:48

Bartley on Grey's Anatomy.

33:50

Yes, Grey's Anatomy. But

33:52

E.R. is also a musician. They go

33:54

by Fightmaster. They're here to introduce you

33:57

to a new song, a really passionate

33:59

new song. that is befitting their artist

34:01

name Fightmaster. You can find that in

34:03

your podcast feed. I'm Talia Schlanger sitting

34:05

in for Tom Power. I'll see you

34:07

next time. For

34:20

more CBC podcasts, go

34:22

to cbc.ca/ podcasts.