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1:03

Hello everybody, Walk him The Radical?

1:06

can't our podcast I'm Hims God.

1:08

I'm Jason, Rosa. And I'm

1:10

Amy, Sam Or and it is

1:13

so important to know how to

1:15

apologize. Today we're going to explore

1:17

some quote apologies that are not

1:19

apologies at all. For. Example.

1:22

I'm. An Asshole. I

1:24

was just kidding. Kim

1:26

This has been really hard for me.

1:30

I'm sorry if I made you

1:32

feel uncomfortable an adjacent to that.

1:34

I am so sorry you feel

1:36

that way at my us my

1:39

Pago about one. Him

1:42

I was having a bad day.

1:44

Let me explain a. A. A.

1:46

Forgive me. I

1:49

don't think I did that justice, but

1:51

we'll We'll see them very well and

1:53

I'm free The forgive me By the

1:55

way, somebody I was talking to somebody

1:57

about this and she said. Someone

2:00

had punched her in a way

2:02

that made her feel uncomfortable and

2:04

he blocked the door so she

2:06

couldn't get out of the room

2:08

where they were and said forgive

2:10

me. Out there's

2:13

an especially bad forgive me oh my

2:15

yeah we're just right now we're just

2:17

doing the words were not even getting

2:19

it entered the As or I the

2:21

other guy said sought help and luckily

2:23

can you did a deep dive on

2:25

this and radical respect to go ahead

2:27

get Kim's new book Radical respect wherever

2:29

books are. Sold. But.

2:31

You are in luck because we're going

2:33

to give you the shorthand by putting

2:36

all of these false apologies into one

2:38

this scenario. So if you're listening to

2:40

this while you're having a cocktail a

2:42

mock tail, go ahead take a sip

2:45

every time you hear a false apology.

2:47

We thought we would take this off

2:49

with a little role play and we've

2:51

got two rolls here. One is the.

2:54

Sorry. Not sorry person who

2:56

are calling here as sorry

2:58

not sorry Sam. And

3:01

out with that patients. Pam in the

3:03

other corner so. I

3:05

am Jason. Are you feeling? Not.

3:08

Sorry or patients are both.

3:11

I can be patient town. Or.

3:13

I I'm not sorry Sam. All

3:15

right. Ah, Well. It looks

3:17

like it's starting with not sorry Sam, Take

3:20

it away. Hey

3:22

Pam I wanted to talk to about what

3:24

happened is a meeting. Yesterday. He

3:27

say i'm sure but ah. Well. I

3:29

just wanted to say i'm sorry. You.

3:31

Know I'm an asshole for calling you out

3:34

like that in front of every one when

3:36

you were just trying to help. Oh

3:38

thanks for saying that, but it's

3:41

still really hurt my feelings. Yeah.

3:45

I got it. I was just kidding around

3:47

the A Now I mean I didn't mean

3:49

for it to come off so horse. I

3:51

guess. It's hard to take

3:53

a joke. Service or not

3:55

funny, he didn't feel like you are kidding. He

3:58

felt like a personal attack. Mark.

4:01

I know, I know, but this week has

4:03

been really hard for me and dealing with

4:06

all the stress of this project and I

4:08

did on ads. I was being

4:10

funny, but I guess it just came out in

4:12

the wrong way. And. I understand

4:14

you've been stressed, but that doesn't give you an

4:17

excuse to repeat. I worry. I'm sorry

4:19

if I've made you feel uncomfortable.

4:21

That was not my intention. And

4:24

I also appreciate both. wasn't your

4:26

intention, but. That's.

4:28

Our made me feel and that's what matters.

4:31

Well. I'm really sorry you felt that

4:33

way. Let me explain where I was coming

4:35

from. True prefer. I

4:37

was having a bad day and

4:39

your suggestion overwhelm the so I

4:41

acted like an incense. Like.

4:43

I said I'm an asshole. And

4:45

again I do understand that. but

4:48

it's not okay if you take

4:50

out your bad day on me

4:52

as smart. As. Active way to

4:54

deal with a tough situation. You.

4:56

Are one hundred percent right? Can you

4:58

forgive me? I

5:01

think I could, but I need some time

5:03

to think about this. I honestly the policy

5:05

salts a bit insincere to me. Understand

5:08

a move on. And

5:10

seen speed not moving on us.

5:12

How do a radical the and

5:14

her family players feel about that?

5:17

That. Exchange and Jason I thought

5:19

you were handling it. I think

5:22

you were very patience as Pam.

5:24

Are trying to follow the staged first.

5:29

Season gray. I think pam

5:31

space in smite as in real

5:33

life elapsed a few. Phrases.

5:36

Before but can just because you spent so

5:38

much time on this like what is going

5:40

on with as you could just. Almost

5:43

like a play by play, peel back the

5:45

tape or kind of d breathing like a

5:47

football coach like what is wrong with each

5:49

of these phrases that you use. We can

5:51

start with the very first one which is.

5:54

I'm an asshole. What? Tell me about

5:56

that one? Yeah, I mean when I

5:58

say I'm an asshole, basically what I'm

6:00

saying is this is who I am.

6:02

Deal with it. And. Now I'm

6:05

not gonna change. Basically, I'm

6:07

saying it's like saying tough

6:09

shit. Ton. Of to me

6:11

anyway. I don't know. What Are you? What are you all think?

6:14

I was wondering if there's a material

6:16

difference between saying I'm an asshole and

6:18

ah, I, I behaved. Poorly

6:20

ib I use like a jerk I behaved like

6:23

an asshole. Yeah, that's the only

6:25

difference. To. Say I'm an asshole This

6:27

means you know, yes I did that

6:29

once. said I'm gonna do it again and

6:31

the seats are to me anyway. like

6:33

I behaved like a jerk is very different

6:36

thing to say. I. Don't want

6:38

to be a jerk or yes, if you

6:40

say I'm an asshole to me anyway, it's

6:42

like I'm enough. I am an asshole and

6:44

I'm proud of it and I had no

6:46

intention. Of behaving otherwise. But maybe

6:48

I'm reading. Too much and know why.

6:50

I think it aligns with the whole

6:52

philosophy of Radical Cantor of giving core

6:54

feedback and focusing on the situation on

6:56

the behavior on things that contains and

6:58

here points if your self defined as

7:00

an asshole that it's like to deal

7:02

with as an easy like it's just

7:04

gives you sort of and get out

7:07

of jail free card for any other

7:09

behavior as I can't change. And

7:11

I think what's interesting about that one

7:13

for me is that. My. Guess

7:15

is that a lot of people. In

7:18

the seat of the moment might actually mean

7:20

I behaved like an asshole. My I am

7:22

sanguine with the fact that I am a

7:24

jerk. Ah

7:26

yes and and this is like

7:29

an example of getting getting them

7:31

are the words right out to

7:33

make it clear that you. Because

7:36

I think hamburg that for criticism is

7:38

bad when you say it doesn't seem

7:40

like you believe or terror to teams

7:42

some the behavior and I think that

7:44

that's the risk. If you're making in

7:47

any kind of apology and the apology

7:49

from the cross and away his face

7:51

and that makes it seem like you're

7:53

sort of. you do okay with the

7:55

behavior where you don't plan to see

7:57

job and you'd not made a real

7:59

apology. Yeah, it's not. it's it's

8:01

not an apology. I, I'll tell you

8:03

the story when I wrote that, and in

8:05

radical respects, one of the things I

8:07

said it's not an apology is saying I'm

8:10

an asshole and I didn't write the

8:12

story that I was thinking of us. But

8:14

I'll tell you want to hear it or.

8:16

Not oh yeah okay so here's what

8:19

happened we were driving around and around

8:21

we're in D C I said from

8:23

were driving around with my family and

8:26

we were my my parents and my

8:28

siblings not. My husband and my

8:30

jobless and. Were driving around and around

8:32

and around the and finally I there

8:34

was a. A parking spot.

8:37

And there was somebody who had been waiting for

8:39

it and I said father was driving us a

8:41

damn. Good at Sydney. God

8:44

it's so. I was in. Apple's

8:46

are simple. Ah I'm and like

8:48

he zip them and as he did

8:50

like the and ah I was I

8:52

was acting like center at but i

8:55

had and maybe i even was because

8:57

I thought it was hilarious. And

9:02

then this is true confessions. Hear these.

9:05

it's not my best moment and the

9:07

my father got out of the car

9:09

and the person has been waiting like

9:11

what started walking up to him and

9:13

my father looked at this guy and

9:15

he aside yeah now I'm an asshole

9:17

and he slammed the door and hit

9:20

the last up and i remember thinking

9:22

oh my gosh like it was. It

9:24

was like it was a moment where I

9:27

was like really i'm I had put my

9:29

father and the role of beat ya like

9:31

I was the or I don't think he

9:33

would have done that if I hadn't egg

9:36

them on and second of all his response

9:38

to it like I could tell that when

9:40

he said by. Enraged. That

9:42

person even more which was his point. So anyway,

9:44

that's why it's not an apology to say I'm

9:46

and that's what are those well with going on

9:49

in my brain. Yeah, but

9:51

that? yeah. Its

9:53

reminding me of the scene in Fried

9:55

Green Tomatoes. Is any of you know

9:57

what I'm talking about? Where the care.

10:00

Or am I. Played.

10:02

By Kathy Bates is is them

10:04

waiting to get a parking spot

10:06

and those around and around and

10:08

then finally this this little car

10:10

speeds n n. And. Seats Kathy

10:13

beta cells with so much rage that

10:15

she just smashes the car over and

10:17

over and over again. She finally samson

10:19

or something to the effect as like

10:22

honey, I'm all until old and I

10:24

have too much car insurance said. I'm

10:27

not doing it justice, will have to

10:30

find that that good buddy as parking

10:32

can really inspire an asshole or a

10:34

I guess is maybe the flavor allow

10:37

move on or not it could. Also

10:39

it's of also sparked a fundamental attribution

10:41

error like the. The. The

10:43

which is sort of what you're

10:45

doing. When you say I'm an asshole,

10:47

you're making the fundamental attribution error. About

10:50

yourself. So.

10:52

Let's. Get into some of the

10:54

other examples and why they aren't

10:56

apologies, right? So you week. I.

10:59

Was Kim I think you are just

11:01

kidding when you when you said years

11:04

you're an asshole, you're just kidding. Yeah

11:06

the reason why that is not an

11:08

apology is that the point is that

11:11

it it's a little bit like demanding

11:13

that the other person have good intentions

11:15

of the like maybe you're kidding but

11:17

the put that that is not that

11:20

is irrelevant. The problem is that what

11:22

I said. Hurt. Pam made

11:24

it harder for Pam to do

11:26

her work and so for me

11:28

to say i was just kidding

11:30

is I'm making it now that

11:32

me and what I should be

11:34

doing is making and a about

11:36

acknowledging. What? I did wrong

11:39

and making at right for

11:41

pam and I think like

11:43

him that. Not. Whole role

11:45

play. My whole goal was to make it

11:47

right for me. I didn't really care. About

11:50

Sam. Yeah. It

11:52

is or is always true that

11:55

comedy is is. It

11:57

is measured as the receivers

11:59

your. The speakers mass or if

12:01

you're saying I was joking, I was just

12:03

kidding. hours of be funny. If

12:06

you know either side of the smartest a

12:08

state you get to claims of her son

12:10

had also think it's won't be. Yeah

12:13

kinda how often does does power way

12:15

and on this sort of who gets

12:17

to decide who funny and what a

12:20

joke is so not only landing at

12:22

the recipients ear but oh this, can't

12:24

this person take a joke, etc. Yeah.

12:27

I mean humor when it

12:29

is. With that said, the

12:31

evolutionary purpose of humor is

12:33

to help. Us become more aware

12:35

ah to help us notice something

12:38

that we otherwise wouldn't have notice.

12:40

it's it's. That's at

12:42

least according to. Ah

12:44

and Lee bear. Who is a

12:46

professor of comedy? I'm who

12:49

I met through Kelly second

12:51

city Helen entered. Yeah, yes

12:53

and as his spouse. So

12:56

anyway, it's ha ha ha.

12:58

So the proudest is Enlightenment.

13:01

Or bit of of humor. And also

13:03

another important thing to remember

13:05

about humor is that it

13:07

should never kick down. A.

13:09

You have power in the situation. He

13:11

should never. Make fun of someone if you

13:14

have more power. He should never make fun of

13:16

someone who has less power. But if you

13:18

have less power it's okay to make

13:20

fun of someone who has more power.

13:23

so at that's one of that's one

13:25

of the it's usually or it could

13:27

be risky maybe but but it it

13:30

doesn't it doesn't carry the same wrong

13:32

I think. I

13:34

think it's interesting just to layer that into

13:36

this conversation when you think about the workplace

13:38

and how someone's role and power either hierarchical

13:41

are systemic could could play into this. but

13:43

I gotta say can. This week has been

13:45

so hard for me. In. Oh.

13:47

My. God. So stressful. Why is that a

13:50

false apology? Just talking about how hard everything

13:52

is? Now I'm in.

13:54

For. Me at least some love to hear what

13:57

others think that I had. To me that's

13:59

making it about me again when I'm like

14:01

oh, this is so hard for me, It's

14:03

like I made a mistake, I hurt you

14:05

and now I'm asking you to feel. Sorry

14:07

for me. And. So

14:09

it's just seems not fair. What?

14:11

Do you think. Jason. Pam. Well.

14:15

This whole thing is I as

14:17

as we were going through it

14:20

I kind of think the roads

14:22

I follows follows the narcissist prayer.

14:25

Or you're familiar with out now

14:27

when I saw. Gone.

14:30

This long without knowing this. A

14:32

narcissist prayer is that didn't happen and if

14:34

it did it wasn't that bad and if

14:36

it was that's not a big deal and

14:39

if it is that's not my fault is

14:41

some was I didn't need it in if

14:43

I did you deserved it. Wow.

14:46

Wow, I think we could just and right

14:48

there. Is

14:50

incredible. This is just

14:52

don't be a narcissist when his size

14:54

city Ldr yeah I thought the Good:

14:57

tell the whole the whole point of

14:59

the prayers for it to talk about

15:01

the tactics. Bad: People. Who

15:04

are trying to make something

15:06

about themselves? I usually use

15:08

to. Ah, To the

15:10

Flats or discredit someone could. I think

15:12

what Pm did really well in the

15:14

script that he wrote brandy. Is.

15:17

Sam stood their ground. Safe.

15:19

And okay I understand yeah they are. give

15:21

up in it's okay and organ let you

15:23

get away with it even if I'm Marianne

15:25

as I average of all. but I said

15:27

look I think I might be able to

15:29

forgive you but I'm not ready to. Yeah,

15:32

yeah and. That. Is that is

15:34

the only way to have a chance

15:36

of counteracting? Someone is trying to make

15:38

it all about themselves as to not.

15:41

Use the last sort of measure of

15:43

your power in that situation. Ah with

15:45

which out to acquiesce to the way

15:48

the therapy for picture that they're painting

15:50

of the world. I.

15:52

Think that so how fun as we in just

15:55

a little bit will get into some tips and

15:57

what that looks like. I think that you in

15:59

terms of this. Setting up for yourself and

16:01

also at the and like give yourself

16:03

some time Like I really appreciated the

16:05

way said that like I need to

16:07

figure out why does why this felton

16:09

insincere. There was something else that was

16:11

going on and Cam when you said

16:13

like and sorry if I made you

16:15

feel uncomfortable, I'm sorry you feel that

16:17

way like there's a lot about again

16:19

intention versus impact. So tell us about.

16:22

Ascribing sort of this i'm sorry

16:24

about you feel x, y and

16:26

z ah what's going on there.

16:29

I. Mean when when somebody says to

16:31

me i'm sorry you feel that way

16:33

What I hear his you're being oversensitive.

16:35

You shouldn't feel. That way and it's

16:37

not my fault. That's when I

16:39

hear. Ah, and I think

16:41

that's the problem with it. Yet in

16:44

our i'm sorry you Feel That way

16:46

doesn't acknowledge. That. You've done

16:48

anything wrong. It's just like. Is

16:51

like saying so Be so sensitive as

16:53

as far as I'm concerned, I.

16:55

Think this is another place where a

16:58

slightly different word choice in have a

17:00

very different an impact which is you

17:02

could say. It makes me really sad

17:04

that you feel that way like it

17:06

is I I I. I.

17:09

Am is I'm not apologizing.

17:12

Because I don't necessarily know exactly what I

17:14

did wrong, but it makes me. It makes

17:16

me sad to realize that I made you

17:19

feel that way or something like that is

17:21

different and say i'm sorry you feel that

17:23

way. It's. Better.

17:25

I mean it's a I think

17:27

so you wanna try to go

17:30

back before saying. How

17:32

you feel about their feelings because I'd sit

17:34

there you eaten, get the feeling thing you

17:36

can get on this Tacoma state bread to

17:39

where I feel terrible that you feel terrible

17:41

A now I can't pay attention to what

17:43

I did wrong and I like the resonance

17:45

motion so I think that are tough. To.

17:48

Say i I wanna know what

17:50

I did that made you feel

17:52

sad. Because. I don't want to

17:54

do it again. Or. Something like

17:56

that. I don't know day somebody. Thanks! Yeah, I

17:58

think that's fine. I. I guess what I'm saying

18:01

is like. The As. I.

18:05

Do believe that there. Is

18:08

our. First. Power and

18:10

acknowledging. The

18:14

is acknowledging your. It's.

18:16

I guess it depends on the situation. Again,

18:18

if there's like a power differential I probably

18:20

would feel differently. but is this is a

18:22

close relationship I think is powered acknowledging. The

18:27

difference between a defensive response which

18:29

is yeah, i'm annoyed you feel

18:32

that way yeah and ah and

18:34

another response which is like oh

18:36

at it. As A makes

18:38

me. Like. I'm acknowledging.

18:42

I'm selling you through through my own experience.

18:44

Rail mans like that. Oh,

18:46

is that a meaty feel? Badly to tell

18:48

Alexa how does impact on you and I

18:51

guess if it's not shared with and here's

18:53

what I intend to do to teams in

18:55

the future and he still haven't apologized. Or

18:58

is Islam and acknowledge your behavior.

19:01

Yeah, I thought about this. Ah

19:03

in in terms of white woman

19:06

Sears right? like a think the

19:08

problem. If I say or

19:10

do something that that is say bias

19:12

and somebody pointed out to me and

19:15

then I get upset I say i'm

19:17

sad. Or worse, you know I started to cry.

19:19

Now again and making and about

19:22

me rather than. Like. I

19:24

don't. I don't want to. I was talking

19:26

that Andy about this. We're we're taking a

19:28

walk and he was in a situation where

19:30

he did something. That. He didn't.

19:33

You. Know he didn't intend to do anything wrong. They

19:35

did something that upset someone else and and he

19:37

said. He he

19:39

tried really hard to respond in

19:41

a way. That. Says that

19:43

he cared, but it didn't. Put.

19:45

The other person and the role

19:48

of. Comforting.

19:50

Him. And I

19:52

thought that was a thought. That was. At.

19:54

Point: So like I think it's I think

19:56

it's good to show that you care and

19:59

sometimes your emotions. How you so you

20:01

care ah for? do want to make

20:03

sure that your net that year of

20:05

emotions than don't steal. The show that you

20:07

are a by the main focus on them

20:09

as he does yeah if it's easier to

20:11

remember just not to do it and bus

20:13

service. It's

20:16

it's it's different. Things are easier

20:18

for different. folks. And.

20:20

I think to sit knowledge in that

20:22

is somebody says. You

20:24

know this thing you said to me was

20:26

biased. You know years as having an emotional

20:28

reaction to that is valid. It's what do

20:30

you than a due to manage that reaction

20:33

so that you can show up in a

20:35

way that still taking responsibility. For.

20:37

It whether you need to take some time, etc.

20:39

Chemists: At. Yeah, yeah, know what

20:42

you're saying. Essence outside. I saw a

20:44

lot about this about. You. Know

20:46

how to become aware and make amends. What

20:48

to do when you've upset. Someone. Or Hurt

20:50

someone. Or. Harm. Someone in

20:52

some kind of and as I was

20:55

riding radical Respect. I read

20:57

this wonderful book on repentance and

20:59

repair that goes into great detail

21:01

about what to do because it's

21:03

It's a terrible feeling that to

21:05

realize that you've harm someone else.

21:07

I mean, I can tell you.

21:10

When I realize I've hurt someone else,

21:13

I feel. Like

21:15

a. My whole my stomach

21:17

drops to my knees and and then

21:19

the backs of my knees. started tingle

21:21

like it if i. Am terrified

21:23

and so what? You know?

21:25

what can you do in

21:27

the moment to to respond

21:30

well And Danya. Rutenberg Rabbi

21:32

Danya Rutenberg, who wrote on repentance

21:34

and repair. Ah, went

21:36

back to the twelfth century term

21:38

my mom at ease and came

21:41

up was a real isn't likely

21:43

than women hurting each other in

21:45

this world. For a long time. Ah,

21:48

And there's some wisdom. their you almeida You

21:50

want me to tell you what my model

21:52

he was? They are. I've been waiting a

21:54

thousand years. Since up

21:56

a. Okay,

21:59

So. There's. Five Days.

22:01

First, be aware. And

22:03

this is really important because very

22:06

often. If someone tells

22:08

you that you've heard them early

22:10

sub, someone tells me that I've

22:12

heard them and I didn't I

22:14

wasn't aware what I did wrong.

22:16

My first kind of instinct is

22:18

to say I wasn't aware as

22:20

though. That. Absolves me have

22:22

any further action and that's apart.

22:25

So like my obligation to be

22:27

aware. And when I was reading

22:29

about best and when I wrote

22:31

be aware is the first step

22:34

I was thinking of one of

22:36

the. One. Of the most

22:38

chilling incidence of my career, I

22:40

was having dinner. With. An

22:43

entrepreneur and his daughter. And.

22:46

His daughter was an adult,

22:49

his daughter had worked for

22:51

the from and his daughter

22:53

was telling. Him.

22:55

That see had become

22:58

so depressed. Ah,

23:00

at one point while working for

23:02

him. That. She had become

23:04

suicidal. And. His

23:06

response was i wasn't.

23:09

Aware. And then he moved right on.

23:12

As. Though that like it was

23:15

his job as you know as

23:17

a leader and even more his

23:19

job as as her father to

23:21

be aware of what was going

23:24

on So i think taking some.

23:26

Personal. Accountability for. Our awareness of

23:28

the impact that we have on others as. Step

23:31

Number One. When. He isn't

23:33

will. The first thing that's popping

23:35

up that story is really powerful

23:37

is just the value of proactively

23:40

asking for feedback because we may

23:42

not be aware and the only

23:44

way if somebody isn't presenting that

23:47

to us is actually actively checking

23:49

in with people. You. Know to

23:51

say hey, is there something I could do differently as

23:53

or something that I've said that's made you uncomfortable or

23:55

is there was you know a to be It just

23:57

goes back to the order of operations. Start by us.

24:00

For feedback because that person might not. Feel.

24:02

Safe. Yes, Share that must

24:04

use. sort of given them the opportunity

24:07

to do so. Yeah, and sometimes the

24:09

person may feel it's not their job

24:11

to educate you at what point at

24:13

which point you need to educate. Yourself

24:16

Ah, And. And

24:18

that may mean asking other people who are in

24:20

the room, not the. Person new hurt but

24:23

other you know other sort of. Of

24:26

Sanders for that person or Islam

24:28

servers of the situation, it may

24:30

mean doing some research so taking

24:32

some accountability to be aware and

24:34

to educate. Ourselves about the things we may

24:36

not be aware of. Stuff number one. so that's

24:39

number one. That's the first of five bays. The

24:42

next is to acknowledge

24:44

your mistake as publicly

24:46

as possible. I think

24:48

it is so deeply

24:50

ingrained in us to

24:52

hide our mistakes and

24:54

acknowledging your mistake as

24:56

publicly as possible. Does.

24:58

A bunch of thing from one. It.

25:01

Shows. That you know what you

25:03

did and it helps other people

25:05

avoid. Making the same

25:07

mistake that you just made. By.

25:09

By acknowledging it publicly and

25:12

it's also like. Gets

25:14

you out of the mindset. Of trying

25:16

to cover up their mistake. So I

25:18

think acknowledging your mistake as publicly

25:21

as possible. Is really important

25:23

and it just runs counter

25:25

to. You. Know

25:27

what most PR firms will tell you

25:29

as you as it is, you're a

25:32

business later and runs counter, I remember

25:34

one time I mean this. Different.

25:37

But I I basked in the

25:39

someone. You. Know

25:41

I. I just sat us. This was totally

25:43

my fault. And. We

25:45

called the cops and the cops came and

25:47

I said i, you know this is my

25:49

fault. And. I got home and and

25:51

and I told and they wanted happen and

25:53

is I .net I told him what I

25:55

said he like you can admit it's your

25:57

fault am I but it was my fault.

26:00

Then it goes because of insurance. And

26:02

but in the and like we

26:04

gotta overcome these there's all kinds

26:06

of of pressures and the world

26:08

that that. That. Would have

26:10

us not acknowledge our mistakes as publicly

26:12

as possible and push back against those

26:15

pressures and that acknowledge the mistake. I

26:17

think that's so important especially when you

26:19

think about leaders showing vulnerability and you

26:21

know don't admit mistakes and what we

26:23

see modeled sometimes in the political arena

26:26

another spaces So I think you mentioning

26:28

that you've an example camera Jason were

26:30

either you or leaders and organizations you

26:32

been a part of have done this

26:35

really well either and like a team

26:37

meeting or some other way. I.

26:39

Mean that's kind of what's behind. What's The

26:41

Daisy is where I as the leader of

26:43

the team stood up and acknowledge some mistake

26:45

I made that week. In a it was.

26:47

Part of every week. We did that

26:49

and you it was a stuffed animal for

26:51

folks who are unaware of slow dusts flower

26:53

a days of or it that is a

26:55

been yes. There's longer storied herbalist.

26:58

In this suffice it to say

27:00

it's to the been stuffed flower

27:02

gotcha Jason Anything anything on acknowledging

27:04

mistakes publicly? I. Think a word of

27:07

caution. So that people don't think

27:09

this is like a recipe that you you

27:11

follow and and you like become aware of

27:13

any probably about ideology mistake for the simple

27:16

reason as if you have not gone through

27:18

the other steps and the person. The

27:20

usually very careful about the story that you

27:22

tell because the other person may not feel

27:24

like you have said knowledge to damn the

27:27

mistakes that you've made. A new try to

27:29

like work towards making amends as if I

27:31

making it public. It seem like

27:33

reignite the like the p out the things

27:35

you're actually I'm sick of a problem and

27:37

so that was the only thing I was

27:39

going to remind is like i feel like

27:41

I'd wanna make sure that I made me

27:43

that way if a person. Or.

27:45

People who are most directly affected by

27:47

the mistakes that I made before I

27:49

am else to publicly yeah, you don't

27:51

want to write a whole novel about

27:53

what you dead and not tell the

27:55

person that yeah why? I think it

27:57

seems obvious that this is a critically.

28:00

We're we're yeah, right. I just feel like

28:02

it's good to be specific group which asks

28:04

you want to make sure that thier acknowledgment

28:06

is not going to come as a surprise

28:08

to the person that you harm. Yeah,

28:10

Nouri harmed. Yeah. Really important. Millet

28:13

yet at so can do you want to

28:15

walk us through the other parts of these

28:18

A and maybe even the ordered that Jason

28:20

is referring to How people might think about

28:22

it so you wanna be aware you on

28:24

acknowledge your mistakes ah as publicly as possible

28:27

Again, this was probably meant to happen and

28:29

a temple. And assistance or

28:31

it. Is not on

28:33

social media? Ah so ah

28:36

so not so be aware.

28:38

Acknowledged third as accept the

28:40

consequences like don't try does.

28:43

This. Is part of the problem with. All

28:45

these like investigations

28:47

that. Really? Ah.

28:50

Are just as. An effort to avoid

28:52

a lawsuit? Say you want to accept the

28:54

consequences. Make a man's so

28:56

to make amends you might have to

28:59

go beyond the consequences you might have

29:01

to offer the person more. Than.

29:03

That then you would be

29:05

required to for for to

29:07

accept the consequences and only

29:09

fc is done Those things as

29:12

my mom it is Say

29:14

it's time to apologize. But

29:17

apology is not the and that you have

29:19

to change for good. You can't. Make.

29:21

This keep making the same mistake and then

29:23

apologize like that. There are I'm sure there

29:26

are people and every one voice who makes

29:28

who are always laden or so apologetic about

29:30

being late. I'm like. Let's. Just

29:32

accept that you're gonna be late and I'm okay with

29:34

it. Near okay with of what I'm not okay with

29:37

is this apology that you're late you know. What's

29:40

coming up as you're going through all

29:42

this is that apologizing and apologies is

29:44

Not. A. One off event, it's

29:46

an ongoing relationship building modeled by not

29:49

just the words you're using, but also

29:51

the way in which you're putting it

29:53

into practice. much like. Radical.

29:55

Candor Gray like if you say you're going to do

29:57

this thing and you don't do with and that's not

29:59

really. Yeah, that's still deposits apology because

30:01

you're in in a sort of. Put

30:03

your actions were your words were. Yeah, I

30:06

don't want to acknowledge that often.

30:08

the change is hard. And. It's

30:10

gonna take time and you have

30:12

to extend yourself some grace if

30:14

you want. Others to extend some

30:16

gray so I I. It. Was

30:18

saw Ceo who I work to us who

30:21

was trying. To change

30:23

his vocabulary instead of standing I'm had in

30:25

front of the whole company and saying you

30:27

guys, He was trying to stand up and

30:29

save folks because half the pete, well a

30:32

third of the people anyway in the room

30:34

or not guys and. This

30:37

was hard at It wasn't like the

30:39

worse arm he had ever created, but

30:41

he was really trying to do it

30:43

and it was very hard. It's hard

30:45

to change habits of space that we've

30:47

had since we were very young and

30:50

so he you know we're we all

30:52

extended them some grace and he i

30:54

think he got like as little. Rock.

30:56

Rockets or something that in a surfer rockets

30:58

people could shoot him when he does. Some

31:02

sort of accountability hits ah but he

31:04

also saw don't want this to these

31:06

early so heavy and our get a

31:09

could be and how does were very

31:11

light rocket. The I understand what you're

31:13

talking about a rubber gay and yeah yeah,

31:15

I love those things. Kim.

31:18

To that point. In. Terms

31:20

as. Of. Changes Hard like

31:22

I would love to get an

31:24

example for folks, Is there an

31:26

apology that you have used recently

31:29

or and active apologizing that you

31:31

want to share? That could be

31:33

helpful. That kind of reinforces these

31:35

these A's and under the Sea

31:37

for Change? Yes, I mean learned

31:39

that One of them most poignant

31:41

examples of an excellent apology is

31:44

a story. That. Ah,

31:46

that can I read this from

31:48

Radical? Respected the story from from

31:50

this American life. So. Ah,

31:52

I'm. The principles are

31:55

featured and an apology to Lindy

31:57

West who was targeted by a

31:59

troll. After her father died. The.

32:01

Troll opened a Twitter and email

32:04

account and Lindy is deceased father's

32:06

name and started sending sending her

32:08

cruel messages. Rather, Than

32:10

ignoring the Troll West Wrote

32:12

about the experience on the

32:14

website decibel and.this response from

32:16

him. Pay. Lindy. I

32:18

don't know why, or even when I

32:21

started trolling you, it wasn't because of

32:23

your stance on rape jokes. I don't

32:25

find them funny either. I. Think

32:27

my anger towards you stems from

32:29

your happiness with your own big.

32:32

And. Offended me because it serves

32:34

a highlight my unhappiness with

32:36

my own self. I

32:38

have emailed you through two

32:40

other G email accounts justice

32:43

and do idiotic insults. I.

32:45

Apologize for that. I.

32:47

Created the Paul West's.dot nice

32:49

though as email.com account and

32:52

the twitter account. I have

32:54

deleted both. I can't

32:56

say sorry enough. It. Was

32:58

the lowest thing I have ever done.

33:01

When. You included it in your latest

33:03

decibel article and finally hit me:

33:05

There's a living breathing human being

33:07

who was reading this shit. I.

33:10

Am attacking someone who never harmed

33:12

me and anyway and for no

33:14

reason whatsoever. I'm. Done being

33:16

a troll again. I apologize. I made

33:18

a donation and memory to your dad.

33:21

I wish you the best. So.

33:24

That is an apology. Ah,

33:27

it's more than an apology. Again, In

33:29

other things, he was aware of what

33:31

he did wrong. He acknowledged his mistake

33:34

of publicly as possible. He accepted the

33:36

consequences. He. Made a man's He

33:38

apologized and he changed. I

33:41

can add anything more to there was really

33:43

powerful yes the I even I mean it's

33:45

like of hard to read it and almost

33:47

brings tears to your eyes. It and everybody

33:50

says like ignore that frozen is you know

33:52

she didn't. And honestly

33:54

I think she saw the humanity and

33:56

that person and I think that action

33:58

as reflected his. You. Know the

34:00

sort of idea that hurt people, hurt

34:02

people yell. I think that it gave

34:05

that person a chance to access their

34:07

own humanity. Yeah, so. Are

34:09

at war with that? Let's get

34:11

into our checklist so that we

34:13

can start putting. More.

34:16

What? Is that respectful? Apologies? Cameo?

34:18

With your it, Respectful apologies into

34:20

practice or dense? Don't race to

34:23

apology I would say. Yeah.

34:25

Now. So. It's a respectful apology,

34:28

but it's also. Don't. Apologize

34:30

prematurely. Apologize before you know

34:32

what you did wrong. It's

34:34

almost like a thoughtful apology.

34:37

Bss? Yeah, exactly. So.

34:40

Tip: Number One: to sincerely apologize

34:42

To have a more thoughtful

34:44

apology process to this person

34:46

to whom you've caused harm.

34:49

Practice your skills were calling

34:51

it Act. Yes, Five

34:53

years in A C. Five days in

34:55

a Sci Fi aware. Acknowledge.

34:58

What you did wrong. Make.

35:01

Amends: Accept. The

35:03

consequences. Apologize,

35:06

And. Change. His number

35:08

two: don't use emotions. would word accountability. If

35:10

you're prone eight years, make sure you and

35:13

others were present. The mean: Focus on the

35:15

person tart. Don't allow the discomfort that others

35:17

feel in the face of your tears to

35:19

cause them to give you a pass. When

35:21

you're acknowledging what you did wrong, don't want

35:24

be about you. Number

35:26

three. When. You've hurt someone.

35:28

Rather than focusing on your intentions,

35:31

take a moment to look for

35:33

the actual harm, your attitude or

35:35

behavior. May have done. If. Someone

35:37

is upset try to understand why

35:39

rather than to reject the other

35:41

person's emotions. Remember. An

35:43

apology is not a substitute for

35:45

fixing the problem. Apologies repeated

35:48

over and over without awesome

35:50

become an irritation like throwing

35:52

salsa and the wound. For.

35:55

More tips to see the show Notes

35:57

for this episode go over to Radical.

36:00

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36:02

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36:05

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and review us wherever you're listening to

36:09

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36:12

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36:14

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36:26

Radical Kinda podcast is based on

36:28

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36:30

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36:33

I Kinda episodes are written and

36:35

produced by Brandy Neil. With

36:37

script editing by me any similar.

36:39

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36:42

Kinda Thought and Jason Rose Off

36:44

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36:48

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Can or Podcast. The music was

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