Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if
0:02
you know this about me, but I'm a bit
0:04
of a fun fanatic when I can. I like
0:07
to work, but I like fun too. It's a
0:09
thing, and now the truth is out there. I
0:11
can tell you about my favorite place to have
0:13
fun. Chumba Casino. They have hundreds of social casino-style
0:16
games to choose from, with new games released each
0:18
week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, and
0:20
each day brings a new chance to collect daily
0:22
bonuses. So join me in the fun. Sign
0:25
up now at chumbacasino.com. No
0:28
purchase necessary. VTW Group. Voidware prohibited by law. See terms and conditions.
0:30
plus. Hello everyone. My
0:32
name is Wesley Faulkner, the co-hosts
0:34
of Radical Respect Podcast. And
0:36
today I'm joined by my other co-host.
0:39
Kim Scott. That is
0:41
me. And we are here
0:43
today with Denise Hamilton, who
0:45
has written a book that
0:48
I'm so excited to share with everyone.
0:50
Because it is the book that every
0:52
single person in this country needs to
0:55
read at least once this year. All
0:57
right. So Denise, a little background
1:00
about Denise. Denise is a nationally
1:02
recognized workplace culture and DEI expert.
1:05
She is the founder and CEO
1:07
of Watch Her Work, a digital
1:09
learning platform for professional women and
1:12
all hands group, a workplace
1:14
culture consultancy. An
1:17
in-demand speaker and facilitator, she has consulted
1:19
for and presented to dozens of Fortune
1:22
500 companies, including
1:24
GE, Apple, IBM, Shell,
1:27
VP, and Meta, among
1:29
others. Her thought leadership
1:31
has been featured in Harvard
1:33
Business Review, Morning Joe, Fox,
1:36
Bloomberg, Newsweek. And she is
1:38
a regular contributor to MIT
1:40
Sloan Management Review. Denise
1:42
lives in Houston, Texas with her
1:45
husband and has one daughter, Indivisible,
1:47
which we're going to hear from
1:49
today is her first book. Denise,
1:51
welcome. Thank you so much
1:53
for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here.
1:56
I'm more thrilled. Yes. was
2:00
saying he barely knows you and he book
2:04
is already doing so
2:08
congratulations on on launch
2:11
and we would love to hear you
2:13
read the prologue to your book is
2:15
the best prologue I have read in
2:18
years so thank you for writing it
2:20
I know it's a labor of love
2:22
and why don't you just start reading
2:25
it and and then so
2:27
for our listeners out there we're not gonna
2:29
we're not gonna read my book today we're
2:31
gonna read Denise's and the Wesley and I'll
2:33
sort of jump in and ask you questions
2:35
as you go perfect yes and I'll take
2:37
notes what
2:41
does it mean to be indivisible
2:45
a few years ago I was scrolling
2:47
mindlessly through my phone when I saw
2:49
a statistic about the maternal mortality rate
2:51
in the United States black
2:53
women were dying in childbirth at
2:55
three times the rate of white
2:57
women according to a
2:59
2021 report from the
3:01
CDC the national average maternal
3:04
mortality rate for black women is
3:06
forty eight point nine deaths per
3:09
100,000 live births compared to fourteen point
3:13
seven deaths for 100,000 live
3:16
births for white women not
3:19
because they were in rural areas or
3:21
having their babies at home not
3:25
because they weren't vocal about needing
3:27
medical attention or didn't have money
3:29
for proper care so Serena
3:31
Williams nearly died because her
3:33
doctors initially dismissed her concerns
3:35
that she was short of
3:37
breath she insisted
3:39
she needed to be examined and the
3:41
doctors found blood clots in her lungs
3:45
black women were in the same
3:47
hospitals with the same doctors they
3:50
just weren't receiving the same treatment
3:53
at a time when these women were most vulnerable
3:55
they were dying dying
3:58
from difference I
4:00
was furious, apoplectic actually.
4:04
I remembered the terrifying experience of giving
4:06
birth to my daughter and as
4:08
a black woman myself, I was
4:10
enraged at the deep tragedy of having
4:13
to manage both contractions
4:15
and racism. I
4:18
didn't die. I consider
4:20
myself lucky, but I shouldn't have
4:22
to be lucky to survive. None
4:24
of us should. Can
4:26
we pause there? Yes. Can we
4:29
pause there? I want to
4:31
give some space for this
4:33
tragedy because it is so
4:36
horrifying and so profoundly
4:39
wrong and so shocking.
4:42
Every time I read about it, I feel apoplectic
4:46
actually. It
4:50
must have been very hard even just to write
4:52
these words. It
4:55
is because it's hard to
4:57
believe that they're true, to
5:00
accept that they're true. Because
5:02
if they're true, how can we
5:04
all not be in the streets like
5:06
screaming at the top of our lungs?
5:09
It's like if it's true and
5:11
we don't care, what does that
5:13
mean? I
5:16
don't even know what that means. Are
5:20
there statistics about other
5:22
kinds of operations that
5:25
both men and women have? I wonder,
5:27
are there different outcomes for men and
5:30
women? I
5:33
always wonder that. I've never read. Do
5:36
either of you know? I
5:39
can say that the statistics
5:41
that you're referencing about
5:44
childbirth specifically, before
5:47
I answer your direct question, is
5:49
that it was normalized with socioeconomic
5:52
conditions and still black women
5:55
were extremely on the
5:58
high end of the... the
6:00
difference. As for other
6:02
conditions in men and women, I'm
6:05
not exactly sure, but I know from
6:07
a race standpoint, I
6:10
remember seeing an interview with
6:12
doctors and old
6:15
medical books that had wrong
6:18
information about the pain
6:20
thresholds of Black people or
6:24
how thick the skin is for
6:26
Black people were still, I
6:29
think it was like over 30%, like it was a significant percentage
6:32
of medical doctors today still believe
6:35
some of those misconceptions. But
6:38
for men and women, I know
6:40
that this is all anecdotal, but I've
6:42
seen in the past, but I
6:44
can't recall the exact numbers, that women
6:46
especially get told that
6:48
they're being overdramatic, that they're
6:50
being told that they should just lie
6:52
down and calm down. And a lot
6:55
of their symptoms have been dismissed.
6:58
And I think that also contributed to like,
7:00
what is the number one cause of death
7:02
for women is heart disease, because
7:05
I think it
7:07
gets either misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.
7:10
Well, you have to remember, for
7:12
decades, literally all heart research was
7:14
done only on men. And
7:17
it was extrapolated to women. So
7:19
if they thought Wesley needed a
7:22
dose of two pills, if
7:24
you came in, they would just say,
7:26
Oh, let's just give Kim one pill.
7:28
Like, literally, that was how this was
7:30
done. Right. And like,
7:34
I think we're continually
7:36
unearthing these differential experiences
7:38
of care. And in
7:40
the book, I taught I have a concept, I
7:43
urge us to listen for echoes. And
7:46
these are echoes of disparate treatment that we're
7:48
still living with. And we don't always
7:50
know how to name them, you
7:52
know, but this is a perfect example of an
7:54
echo that needs to be stamped out. Yeah.
7:57
And they also don't test with different
7:59
hormones. levels for women
8:01
as well. And women
8:04
who are pregnant, especially are serviced
8:07
because they think that why
8:10
should we do that because it could be harmful to the
8:12
kid, which is also, but that means
8:14
that there is a huge vast emptiness
8:17
of research in terms of what drugs are
8:19
and are not harmful for people who are
8:21
pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And the same can
8:23
be said of menopause, right? This
8:25
idea that, you know, it's easier
8:27
to just label women histrionic or
8:29
yeah, ridiculous or whatever. It's like,
8:31
let's study this. Let's study this
8:33
like we study Viagra. Yeah, I
8:35
totally agree. And and I think
8:37
that part of the part of
8:47
what you read that makes me so enraged
8:49
is it's like this very dangerous combination
8:52
of power
8:55
and disrespect that
8:57
has got to be like, I'm sure
8:59
we can do all kinds of research
9:01
and medicine, but like there's also this
9:03
psychological power and disrespect like a doctor
9:06
has power and
9:09
if they don't respect their patient,
9:13
it's not going
9:15
to go, it's a disaster, you
9:17
know, for the care of
9:20
the patient and for the
9:22
doctor's outcomes also, you know, yeah.
9:25
And I think there's also like the it's a
9:28
great kind of physical embodiment of
9:31
the problem of the conversation, quite
9:33
frankly, because you have systemic forces
9:36
that are big and macro and
9:38
we're doing what we can to
9:40
disassemble those. But when
9:42
it comes down to it, that's one doctor
9:45
and one patient and
9:47
yeah wildly interpersonal. Yeah,
9:49
that power differential, the vulnerability creates a
9:52
space that I can lose my life
9:54
because you don't think I'm as interesting
9:56
as the person in the room next
9:58
to me. Yes. Yes, wild. Yes,
10:01
it is. It is. And
10:03
I don't know if this
10:06
sheds light on the problem or not, but
10:09
when my father, who's a white
10:12
man, when he was diagnosed
10:15
with late stage cancer, he
10:18
wanted to do one thing in terms of
10:20
his care and his doctor wanted to do
10:22
another. And he was weak at this
10:24
point, but he had gone through his life, a privileged
10:26
white man,
10:30
and I remember he said to his doctor,
10:34
this is my body, not yours.
10:38
But still the doctor was blowing him off.
10:41
And it was really shocking to see.
10:45
And I think Kate Mann calls this
10:47
empathy, where we have more empathy for this
10:49
man, but I was like, oh,
10:52
poor dad. I got really mad at
10:54
this doctor and kind of lit into,
10:56
yes, it is his body. And
10:59
we actually switched doctors, but I think
11:01
it was a lifetime of privilege that
11:03
allowed my father to assert himself in
11:05
that way. It made it easier for
11:08
him. Right. And
11:10
I think he was permitted, as so
11:12
often as the case, he was permitted
11:14
a full spectrum of expression, right? Yeah.
11:17
Because if I get upset and I
11:19
say, this is my body, I'm an
11:21
angry, difficult, irascible black
11:24
woman. I'm impatient. I'm
11:26
like, I don't have the spectrum. I'm
11:28
not permitted the spectrum of
11:30
expression of emotions,
11:33
you know? And that is, it's
11:35
so, it's, it's
11:39
soul breaking. Yeah. Not
11:41
be able to even scream for
11:43
help in a way
11:45
that I can rely on that scream
11:48
for help being responded to. Yeah.
11:51
And healthcare is way more important than food.
11:53
And I know you can't scream at the
11:55
people who serve you food. And when you
11:57
think about healthcare, if you
12:00
get on their bad side, then the
12:03
downside is so, so vast. So
12:05
it's also a real
12:08
sensitive relationship that you
12:10
have to navigate to make sure that
12:12
you say it in a kind way
12:14
so that you gotta force them to care about
12:16
you, which is really, really awkward as well. And
12:19
that's true throughout our whole life. That's
12:21
been true my whole life. If I
12:23
wanna be promoted, if I want to
12:25
make it home from a police interaction,
12:28
if I want my child to be
12:30
treated right at school, if I wanna
12:32
be respected in a store, there's all
12:35
these parameters on how I can conduct
12:37
myself, how I can behave, what's gonna
12:39
be acceptable and who deserves
12:41
support and kindness and who doesn't.
12:45
So this is a really graphic
12:47
example, but this theme plays
12:49
out across our whole lives. Yeah,
12:52
yeah, every aspect of it. And
12:56
I think your book is gonna help us
12:59
move things to a better place, I hope,
13:02
because it can't go on this way, it just can't.
13:07
With Lucky Land Slots, you can get
13:09
lucky just about anywhere. Dearly beloved,
13:11
we are gathered here today to... Has
13:13
anyone seen the bride and groom? Sorry,
13:16
sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the
13:18
limo and we lost track of time. No,
13:21
Lucky Land Casino, with cash prizes that add
13:23
up quicker than a guest registry. In
13:25
that case, I pronounce you lucky. Play
13:28
for free at luckylandslots.com. Daily
13:30
bonuses are waiting. No purchase necessary. Boydware prohibited
13:33
by law. 18 plus. Terms
13:35
and conditions apply. See website for details. So
13:37
Denise, do you wanna keep reading? Sure.
13:43
The next day, I came
13:45
across another objectively horrifying statistic.
13:49
The suicide rate among white men in
13:51
America is one of the highest in
13:53
the world. And
13:55
I felt nothing. I
13:57
didn't care. I didn't care at all.
14:01
In my experience, white men
14:03
had everything. They
14:05
were society's winners. They
14:07
got the good jobs and the nice houses,
14:10
and they didn't care about me. As
14:13
a Black woman, my whole
14:15
life had been spent navigating
14:17
their rules and battling their
14:19
countless arbitrary advantages. From
14:21
my vantage point, they had
14:23
every opportunity, and their wealth,
14:25
power, and success were usually
14:27
derived at the expense of
14:29
people who look like me.
14:33
Why do they need me to worry
14:35
about them? Who cares
14:37
what their struggles are? My
14:40
sleep was fitful that night. I
14:43
got up the next morning tired and
14:46
shaken by my deep hypocrisy.
14:49
Like so many of us, I told
14:51
myself the story that I was a good
14:53
person, kind, understanding,
14:56
and inclusive. But
14:59
when confronted with an actual
15:01
situation that challenged my beloved
15:03
story of the world, was
15:05
I? That
15:07
morning was the beginning of a necessary
15:09
process of exploration for me. How
15:12
did I get here? What did it mean
15:14
to be human? How were
15:16
we all connected? What is
15:18
our responsibility to each other? Can
15:21
we stop there? Yeah. Thank
15:24
you. That must have been really
15:26
hard to write also, in a
15:28
very different way. And that you're
15:30
able to hold both of these
15:34
sort of painful realizations at the
15:37
same time is remarkable. So
15:40
how did it feel to write that? Well,
15:46
it felt fine to write it. It
15:48
was hard to defend it. Yes. There
15:51
are people who read this early in
15:55
the process of the book who felt like, oh,
15:57
you shouldn't put that in there. Yeah, you were
15:59
reading. at oh
16:01
my gosh no and I and I
16:03
really felt strongly I really fought to
16:05
put it in there because I think
16:07
one of the problems of
16:10
of kind of like the expert
16:13
in our modern day society is
16:16
we we act present
16:19
and conduct ourselves as if
16:21
we're perfect and the
16:23
truth of the matter is none of
16:26
us are all of us are swimming
16:28
in the same toxic soup yeah and
16:30
do I think like you're toxic but
16:33
there's nothing about me that's toxic that's
16:35
crazy that's that's not how this would
16:37
ever happen and I think
16:39
that um you know
16:41
I'm a deep believer in the
16:44
power of stories how
16:46
stories inform us how they shape
16:48
us I didn't come to this
16:51
story easily this is
16:53
a hard-earned yes I've
16:55
been stopped on the side of the
16:57
road by the police and you know
17:00
I remember my daughter and I were
17:02
driving on a lonely country road um
17:04
I share this story in the book um
17:08
and I think she was in like second grade and
17:10
a cop pulls us over
17:12
and he basically
17:15
says like can I search your
17:18
car and he was a by himself and
17:20
I thought like no you can't search my
17:22
car like I like this is what me
17:24
thinking you might search my car like what
17:26
you don't have the right to this is
17:28
not legal you don't have the right to
17:30
do this but I had to quickly shift
17:32
over to yeah but
17:34
it's me him and my little baby
17:36
girl like I I gotta comply right
17:39
because they always tell you comply and
17:41
so I said sure fine go ahead
17:43
and search the car and
17:45
so he turns to me like it my daughter
17:48
and I wake her up she's asleep I
17:50
wake her up we get out of the car and
17:53
he tells me for my safety I
17:55
need you and your daughter to lay face
17:57
down in the dirt oh
17:59
my I got to search your car for
18:02
his safety. He's got the
18:04
gun, he's got the power, he can call
18:06
the background. And by the way, you stopped
18:09
me. I didn't stop you. You created this
18:11
situation. And now for your safety, I
18:14
need to lay face down in the dirt. And so
18:16
in my mind, like it's my mind
18:19
is racing because I'm like, this is ridiculous.
18:21
It's the outrage, it's the anger. And
18:23
I looked over at my daughter and she's crying. And
18:25
I say, but am I really gonna
18:27
risk of being harmed? Am I gonna risk
18:29
going to jail? And my daughter being in
18:32
foster care in some town
18:34
in the middle of nowhere. Like I had
18:36
to run through this calculus
18:38
so fast. Oh my God. And
18:41
we did it. We laid down in the
18:43
dirt face down. And I remember my daughter
18:45
was crying and I leaned over to her
18:47
and I said, don't worry honey, it'll be
18:49
okay. And I remember feeling
18:51
so profoundly, that's not true. Yeah.
18:54
It's okay, right? So my
18:57
feeling that I capture here, is
19:00
a legitimate, hard earned story
19:03
that I have in my head. But
19:06
I think that's the point, this is really the point
19:08
of the whole book. We
19:11
all have stories that we have
19:13
to allow to change. You have
19:15
to let the story
19:17
change or else it never does. Our
19:21
stories don't give us up easily.
19:23
And so when you
19:25
are confronted with new information,
19:28
what are you gonna do when
19:30
you hear a statistic that like
19:33
I say, is objectively horrifying and
19:35
you dismiss it, because it's not
19:38
you. Do you dismiss it? Because
19:40
it's those folks over there. That's
19:42
not my business, right? Like, have
19:44
we lost the sense that we
19:46
are truly deeply interconnected, right? It's
19:49
like we're sitting in a big boat, laughing at the people
19:51
at the front of the boat because their end of the
19:53
boat has a hole. Yeah. We're
19:56
all going down. We're all thinking, honey. We're all
19:58
thinking. of
20:00
like, what does that statistic
20:03
have to do with me? Yeah.
20:07
That was what I wanted to explore. Yeah.
20:10
And how, I mean, I want
20:12
to put myself in your shoes for
20:14
a moment, which I know is impossible because
20:19
I usually get, you know, unfairly
20:22
kindly treated by the police. But
20:25
like, if I
20:27
had been the one laying
20:29
in the dirt with my
20:31
second grade child, when
20:34
I read that statistics, statistic,
20:36
I don't think I would have
20:38
just felt indifferent. I would have
20:41
felt like good, you know, like
20:43
I would have felt a real
20:45
sense of vindictiveness. Like how do
20:47
you, which would have been not
20:49
a good thing to feel, but
20:51
how do you, how do you
20:53
avoid feeling that? Or do you?
20:56
You know, it's a beautiful
20:58
question. It's a beautiful, fair,
21:00
super honest question. And
21:02
it really underscores
21:04
like the incredible compassion that
21:06
lives in the hearts of
21:09
all marginalized people in this
21:11
country. The fact
21:13
that we don't run around screaming at
21:15
the top of our lungs all day
21:17
long, sometimes it's like a miracle, right?
21:20
Yeah. But
21:22
if I want a
21:24
certain level of compassion and patience
21:26
and understanding directed at me, and
21:29
I don't wanna be judged harshly as
21:32
having some particular type of behavior because
21:35
of what I look like, I
21:37
have to give that to other people. It's
21:40
just, like I have to. And
21:42
I do wanna say this, I do wanna, it's
21:45
very important. There are
21:47
different, you're allowed to
21:49
feel how you feel when you have
21:51
been harmed, right? And I'm
21:53
always very careful that, and I always wanna
21:55
make sure that there's people who like, say
21:58
like, be like Denise. No, no, no. No,
22:00
be like you, be how you feel.
22:02
You process it the way you process,
22:04
a harm that's done to you. I
22:07
don't police people's reaction, right?
22:10
I police the initial behavior
22:12
that elicits the reaction. So
22:15
this effort that
22:17
I describe in the book is a
22:20
constant effort of trying to stay open.
22:22
It's prying the door open, even
22:25
when really scary, horrible things encourage
22:27
me to close them. But
22:30
it's an effort and different people
22:32
are at different places along that
22:34
journey. And I want to respect
22:38
the individual's right to process harm
22:40
in the way they see it.
22:43
Yeah, I got it.
22:45
It reminds me of the trope of the
22:48
segmentation of this of
22:50
us and them and
22:53
how it's easy to think of they
22:55
have that problem and not we have
22:57
that problem. And the compassion
22:59
that it takes to be able to feel
23:03
compassion to someone who's in some ways
23:06
a different group than you. But
23:08
I also feel that people who are like
23:12
gold medalists in the struggle Olympics have
23:15
to practice that often enough that
23:17
they build that muscle because they
23:19
are trained to do so. So
23:22
it makes it a little bit easier for
23:24
them to have compassion for these different
23:26
groups because they see it all and
23:28
they understand what's going on. But also,
23:30
since we were talking about statistics earlier,
23:33
and also since I see that you're based in Houston,
23:35
I used to live in Austin. And
23:38
in 2016, I ran
23:40
for city council. I
23:43
got third place. There
23:45
are three candidates. And
23:49
and so basically, I had to put a lot
23:52
of my opinions out there because you
23:54
can interview it a lot. And
23:58
one person who was a judge. Uh,
24:01
call me out on one thing where I
24:03
said that, um, ID
24:05
laws to vote mandatory ID was racist. And
24:07
he's like, I don't see how it's racist. Everyone
24:09
has to have an ID and all this
24:11
stuff. And then I
24:14
said, well, if you look at the statistics,
24:16
you see that people who are over marginalized
24:18
communities are less likely to vote
24:20
or have a harder time voting than people,
24:22
uh, when
24:26
the ID laws are there than Pete, then before
24:28
they are there. He's like, yeah, but it's
24:30
not racist. I said, okay, then what do you
24:32
call it that these statistics are now known and
24:35
the people are passing these laws anyway? And
24:39
he gave a pause for a second. He's
24:41
like, oh, and,
24:43
and it's one of those same
24:45
things where these statistics are out there. They're like, oh,
24:47
it just is what it is. But
24:50
the people, the people's lack of compassion
24:52
and understanding that there, there is a
24:54
choice not to do anything about it.
24:56
That in itself is racist. Yeah.
25:00
Yeah. And we're, and we're, um,
25:03
it, the word racist is,
25:08
it's so inadequate. Yeah.
25:11
I think it's one of the most inadequate
25:13
words in our vocab really
25:15
sincerely. Um, um, you
25:18
know, the Inuit people, um, have
25:22
2030, I think almost 40
25:24
words for the word snow. Yeah.
25:26
Because if you live in a frozen tundra,
25:28
snow is very important. If it's wet, if
25:30
it's packed, if it's fluffy,
25:33
if it's light, if it's heavy, if it's,
25:35
you know, frozen, like it's like, that's very
25:37
important. We have the same
25:39
word for someone
25:41
burning across on my lawn. Yeah.
25:43
And the guidance counselor telling the
25:45
black kids, don't bother to apply
25:47
to that school. Cause you're probably
25:49
not going to get in like
25:52
those behaviors are so different, but
25:54
they all fall under this big.
25:56
And so it's made the word Almost
25:59
useless.. right? Like the
26:01
chaos. Because in a
26:03
people are so afraid of being
26:05
labeled, are called racist or a
26:07
system being called racist that they're
26:09
going to defend it's like it
26:11
doesn't even matter if it is
26:13
it's it's worth the be called
26:16
racist and is the be one.
26:19
And so. You
26:22
know that maybe that's the next ten
26:24
years of my life is figuring out
26:26
a new vocabulary. Because.
26:29
We're. Not communicating with each other,
26:32
Yeah. We're not. We're talking past each
26:34
other with that because. It. It.
26:38
Because. It's it's so difficult.
26:40
To. Talk simply and plainly
26:43
with each other around these
26:45
really complex topics. And like
26:47
I say in the section
26:49
like. Everybody. Thinks they're
26:51
good guy. Yeah. Everybody thinks
26:54
they're doing the right thing and they've
26:56
got this figured out. And when you
26:58
come along and you say. So
27:01
much. Fun
27:04
as it is a they. Can't focus
27:06
on the problem? They
27:08
have. they focus on the assault of
27:10
personal injury, the partly and and it's
27:12
like how to use. How do we
27:15
talk about this them Because if we
27:17
can't. Name. The problem
27:19
without you focusing on
27:21
the pejorative nature. Then.
27:24
How do we six anything an elder?
27:26
This huge gap of how. Do we
27:28
communicate with each other? Duty.
27:30
Was boring? Hello! Then
27:33
Judy discovered Zumba casino.com.
27:35
It's my little escape now. Duties
27:37
the Life of the party. Oh. Baby mamas bringing
27:39
home the bacon. So take it easy
27:42
duty. The
27:44
jumble light. as for everybody, so very
27:46
chill the casinos.com and play over a
27:48
hundred to see those games joined today
27:50
and play for free for your chance
27:52
to redeem some serious prices. Jumper
27:55
to see a doctor. over to the. wonder
27:59
what Luckyland
28:01
Casino, asking people what's the
28:03
weirdest place you've gotten lucky? Lucky?
28:06
In line at the deli, I guess? Ah,
28:08
in my dentist's office. More than once, actually.
28:10
Do I have to say? Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
28:13
In the car, before my kids' PTA
28:15
meeting. Really? Yes! Excuse me, what's the
28:17
weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I
28:19
never win Intel. Well, there you
28:22
have it. You could get lucky anywhere
28:24
playing at luckylandslots.com. Play for free right
28:26
now. Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary. Void of
28:28
record prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply.
28:30
See website for details. Yeah, I think
28:33
finding the right words is really
28:35
important. I also think finding the
28:37
right mindset is important. So one
28:39
of my favorite books is Carol
28:41
Dweck's book, Mindset, about a growth
28:43
versus a fixed mindset. And
28:46
I think when it comes to racism, white
28:49
people in particular who don't want
28:51
to be racist need to adopt
28:53
a growth mindset about this problem.
28:56
I mean, it's another way of saying be
28:58
anti-racist, I suppose. Because
29:02
if we had this fixed mindset where
29:04
if I say or do something that's
29:06
biased or racist, then I am racist.
29:08
And that's an attribute that I can't
29:10
change about myself, then I'm going to
29:12
resist any knowledge of what I'm doing.
29:14
Of course. That's why I'm racist.
29:16
Because if I want not to
29:19
be racist, then I need to welcome
29:21
the feedback that what I've said or
29:23
done is biased or racist.
29:26
And Wesley
29:30
and I have talked a bunch on this podcast
29:32
about sort of breaking down the
29:35
problem, bias, prejudice, bullying,
29:37
discrimination, harassment, and physical
29:39
violence. And then sort
29:41
of understanding the sort
29:43
of the slippery slope that one thing leads to
29:45
another. And also even
29:48
like how we talk about
29:50
those things. There's like
29:52
a whole category of behaviors that
29:54
we don't even have a word
29:56
for. I think about...
30:00
think about when George
30:02
Floyd is literally being
30:04
strangled by Derek Chauvin.
30:07
I've thought about
30:09
it quite a bit of like, why did
30:11
he do that? He could
30:13
have put him in handcuffs and put him in the car.
30:15
He could have put him in
30:18
handcuffs and left him on the ground. He
30:20
wasn't resisting. You know what I'm saying? Why
30:22
did he not? He did not need
30:24
to do that. And I sat and
30:26
I watched some of the bystander footage and
30:28
it occurred to me why he did it.
30:31
He did it to terrorize the
30:34
people watching, to let
30:36
the people watching know, I'm in
30:38
charge. I have the power.
30:41
You can't stop me. People
30:43
are running up, begging, pleading,
30:47
even menacing. Get off of him. Stop.
30:49
I can pull out my gun and I
30:52
can stop you. There's nothing you can
30:54
do about it. We don't
30:56
even have a word for that
30:58
level. It's the closest I have is
31:00
terrorism, but that's not even,
31:02
that's not even the right way. You don't
31:04
even have a word for that. So when
31:07
I'm talking to someone about a subject like
31:09
police brutality, we don't even
31:11
have an anchor point because
31:13
you don't understand what that
31:16
kind of terror feels
31:18
like from somebody that's supposed to protect
31:20
you. Yeah, right. Like, yeah,
31:22
it's not even an analogous experience that
31:24
I can, I can
31:26
refer to that will help you
31:29
to understand unless I really slow
31:31
down. I explain myself so carefully.
31:33
I try to find the right imagery
31:36
and I try to find the right language.
31:38
And in a world that everybody's in sound
31:41
bites and nobody wants to listen deeply, how
31:43
do I get you to understand
31:46
that kind of terror? You don't
31:48
have to be a hashtag to
31:50
be terrorized. Yeah. Yeah. And
31:52
so, yeah. So I think like this
31:54
idea of like the inadequacy, the
31:56
sheer inadequacy of our language and then.
32:00
the vast force of people who are
32:02
committed to
32:06
even bastardizing that language further. If we
32:08
come up with a word, we
32:11
try to explain it. Intentionally
32:13
misunderstand. We intentionally misunderstand and
32:15
put millions of dollars into
32:17
everyone misunderstanding. It makes
32:19
the evolution of the language harder,
32:22
which I have to believe is intentional,
32:24
right? Because there's money to be made
32:27
in division, right? They don't
32:29
make money when we all get along. No. And
32:32
at the same time, they're banning the books that explain
32:34
some of this as well. I mean, yeah.
32:37
I mean. Yeah, yeah. So
32:40
it is,
32:42
it's horrifying really. And
32:44
yet I think, you
32:47
know, as you say, storytelling is
32:49
so important. And I think
32:51
that, and
32:54
solidarity is so important. And
32:57
I think that's how we get to indivisibility.
32:59
Like is that storytelling and solidarity.
33:01
And story releasing. Yes,
33:04
story releasing. Story releasing
33:06
is actually put that in a book. That's a good little phrase.
33:08
It's iconic. And no matter how many of
33:11
these stories are out there, people still don't
33:13
understand the prevalence and how
33:15
widespread and how the frequency
33:17
of these interactions. I had a conversation with someone
33:19
else and I was talking about some issues with
33:21
my job history and stuff like that. They're like,
33:24
what? But you're in
33:26
tech. I was like, oh
33:28
yeah. I know. Oh God. It's not
33:30
better. Yeah. Yeah.
33:33
You know, I grew up in Memphis and
33:35
I sort of imagined when I moved to
33:38
the Northeast, there were, you know, things would
33:40
be, they weren't. I moved to California, you
33:42
know, wherever you go, there it is, unfortunately.
33:47
And yet I think, you
33:50
know, this, Denise, what you were
33:52
talking about, watching the murder
33:54
of George Floyd and wondering what
33:56
was going on with Chauvin. It's
33:58
like some, you know, There were no, at
34:01
that moment, there were no checks. He
34:04
perceived no checks on his power. And there
34:06
were, in fact, no checks. There was nobody
34:08
who was able to make him stop. And
34:11
he had some sort of rage,
34:15
you know? And I think the
34:18
checks and balances, what's
34:20
often called white privilege, is you have
34:22
checks on the power of the people
34:24
around you. Like, I remember when I
34:27
was a teenager, I got pulled over
34:29
by a cop. And
34:31
he started leering at me. You
34:33
know, I was wearing short shorts.
34:37
And I was, like, very uncomfortable. He
34:39
was in the back of his car.
34:43
And he starts telling me he's gonna
34:45
pull me over for vagrancy.
34:47
I was in high school and I didn't have
34:49
a summer job that year. And
34:52
I was like, what is he
34:54
talking about? But
34:57
all of a sudden, my privilege
34:59
asserted itself. This is the privilege
35:01
that shouldn't be privileged. This is
35:03
what everyone should have. And
35:07
he said as though it was a threat, I'm gonna
35:09
take you to the police station. I was like, please,
35:11
take me to the police station, anywhere but alone with
35:13
you is where I wanna be. But
35:16
I had every confidence that I would
35:18
do okay. In
35:20
fact, I would be treated very well at
35:22
the... The police station was gonna be all right
35:24
for you. You were gonna
35:26
make it all from the police station. Yeah, I was gonna
35:29
call my dad and my dad was gonna come in and
35:31
that cop was gonna be in trouble. But
35:33
he wasn't, he was a little surprised
35:37
that I was a little at my
35:39
attitude. And
35:41
then he
35:43
sort of said, what's your father do? And
35:45
now I know I'm off the hook. My
35:47
dad's a lawyer. But he still
35:49
wouldn't let me. It was like, oh, he's one
35:52
of those assholes. So I'm still
35:54
like, it's still a little dicey for me
35:56
there. But I can tell I'm winning.
35:59
And then he... asked me where I go
36:01
to school and I went
36:03
to the fancy girl school in
36:05
Memphis and then he was like,
36:07
oh this is a dangerous neighborhood
36:09
I better escort you home. I
36:11
was like totally a hundred
36:13
and I always feel bad about
36:16
that because I could have gone home and
36:18
I could have filed a complaint about him
36:20
you know and I that's what I
36:22
should that would that would have been using the
36:24
privilege that I had but like that's how it
36:26
it's just it's strange to
36:29
think about that like to break down
36:31
these these incidents where where he did
36:33
have some checks on his power he
36:35
could get in trouble with me. Right
36:39
and he ran you through the test right?
36:41
Yeah. Are you worthy? Are you valuable? Yeah
36:43
and I was like of course I am.
36:47
Right and and and it's really
36:49
funny like the you
36:52
use the word rage like we're talking
36:54
about Chauvin like he had this rage and
36:57
and I always think you know
36:59
it's weird how we expect 16
37:02
17 year old boys that are stopped. Yeah.
37:05
Literally harassed and cursed at and
37:07
whatever by police to have self-control
37:10
and maturity but the people that
37:12
are the police that the
37:14
key words of the peace don't
37:16
have that self control. Where
37:19
is their executive function? And
37:21
disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer there are a
37:23
lot of fantastic police officers in
37:26
our country that are doing an
37:28
incredible job and only want the
37:30
best for the people that they're
37:32
working with and
37:34
and I always call on those
37:36
officers to do their part to
37:38
excise officers that aren't doing what
37:41
they need to be doing you
37:43
know yeah they they're more empowered
37:45
to do anything than the rest
37:47
of us can do. Yes absolutely and
37:49
and it's puzzling to me why they
37:51
don't do more because because the the
37:54
the people in their ranks who are
37:56
who are behaving this way are ruining
37:58
it for their life. the
38:01
guns is why. Yeah,
38:04
I guess. And they rely on each
38:06
other for help and for support. And
38:08
you don't get a lot of points
38:10
because you know, a fellow officer like
38:12
I understand in crowd behavior, it's in
38:14
crowd behavior 101. Yeah, they want to
38:17
protect each other. And but
38:19
you're right that that protection has
38:21
this reverse effect of
38:23
really causing damage to the
38:25
whole profession. Yeah, unchecked power,
38:28
unchecked power just never really seems
38:30
to go well. No, right. And,
38:33
and you know, the other example where we've seen
38:35
this is the Catholic Church, right? I
38:37
know so many people that are so
38:39
deeply devout, like they are, they
38:42
truly deeply love God and want to
38:44
serve and want to care for people.
38:46
And the ministry is their
38:48
whole life. But who
38:51
when you if you stop 1000 people, and
38:53
you ask them, what happened to the
38:55
Catholic Church, I guarantee you
38:57
a pretty big percentage is
38:59
going to talk about the priests
39:01
and the pedophilia scandal. Yeah, that
39:04
was a small number of people.
39:06
But yeah, small number of people
39:08
were let allowed to act in
39:10
a young checked manner. You know,
39:13
any society any group is
39:15
judged by how the worst
39:17
behavior of its participants conduct
39:19
themselves what behavior is tolerated
39:22
or allowed. That's Yeah, that's
39:24
I didn't make up that rule. That's just yeah,
39:26
in nature. Yeah. So it seems like you would
39:28
work. You would work
39:30
earnestly to make sure that
39:32
your your for lack of a word,
39:34
your brand is protected by ferreting
39:37
out the bad actors in your environment,
39:39
right. But that's true for all of
39:41
us. That's not just true for them.
39:43
Like I have options. You have
39:45
the option to sit with somebody and they're doing
39:48
something that is out of line out of pocket.
39:50
And because we don't want to rock the boat,
39:52
we don't want them to be mad at us.
39:54
We don't say anything, right. And one of the
39:57
things I try to do in the
39:59
book is read try to get
40:02
people to roll this back
40:04
to human nature
40:07
and assess like what is
40:09
driving the choices that you make
40:12
so that you can control
40:14
it, interact with it, define
40:16
it, redirect it, as
40:19
opposed to here's this list of the words
40:21
you can't say. Yeah. Here's the list of
40:23
the things you can't do because there's no
40:25
list. There's long
40:27
enough. I can't tell you
40:29
how to handle those are
40:32
the strangest emails that I get.
40:34
I'm in this profession. What suggestions
40:36
do you have for me? I
40:38
do not have any idea what
40:40
you should do in your profession,
40:43
but I have a sneaky suspicion that
40:45
you know. Yeah. You know where you
40:47
recruit. Yeah. You know where your interns
40:49
come from. You know what you
40:52
look for in a candidate, right? Oh,
40:55
do they have a sexy internship from
40:57
Google? Yeah. Why is that important? That
40:59
just means their mom had a friend
41:01
at Google. You're like, you know what
41:04
I'm saying? Like you have to unwrap
41:06
the things that you're doing and you
41:08
don't need me to come
41:10
along and give you some checklist. You
41:12
need to read books like mine and
41:14
get what's the concept here and how
41:17
can I apply it in my own life?
41:19
That's the goal. People don't want to do the
41:21
work. They just want things handed to
41:23
them. They use the lazy web. This is just
41:25
give me the list. And
41:27
the thing about
41:29
a fixed list is that it's
41:32
subject to change, right? And if
41:34
you don't know the underlying rationale
41:36
behind all of this
41:38
thing, then that just holds no value
41:40
and you're unable to pivot or adjust
41:42
or to kind of acclimate to a
41:45
different environment because you don't understand the
41:47
spirit of what's being trying to be
41:49
communicated. Well, and Denise, you
41:51
did the work in your book and you
41:53
explained how you did it. Why don't you
41:55
read one more paragraph because I think this
41:57
will answer the next couple of paragraphs.
42:00
We'll answer the question. Just send, next
42:03
time somebody sends you that, just send
42:05
them this paragraph where I began to
42:07
read articles. You educated
42:09
yourself. I began
42:11
to read articles and watch documentaries
42:13
about this suicide scourge among white
42:16
men. I learned about
42:18
the factors that were causing them to
42:20
take their own lives so much more
42:22
often than the rest of the American
42:24
population. I read about
42:26
the loneliness epidemic, the isolation
42:28
and the loss of community. I
42:31
began to understand the part unfettered
42:34
access to guns played in this
42:36
battle. Most gun
42:38
deaths in the United States are
42:40
suicides. And white men,
42:42
despite the narrative you hear on
42:44
the news, are far more likely
42:46
to own a gun, even multiple
42:48
guns, than Black or Hispanic men.
42:52
I learned about the socialization
42:54
of white males towards psoasism,
42:56
secrecy and avoidance of mental
42:59
health care professionals. I
43:01
was confronted by a perverse tragedy.
43:05
White men are born with advantages
43:07
conferred by race and gender, but
43:10
commitment to the mythology of their
43:12
superiority was a trap. Loss
43:15
of a job, failure
43:17
of a business, loneliness
43:20
and underemployment, every
43:23
group experiences these things. But
43:25
for some white men, losing status
43:27
could be a death sentence. This
43:31
is so powerful, what
43:34
you're reading now and the
43:37
work that you did to come to
43:39
this understanding. The word
43:41
that you in those
43:43
paragraphs that most struck
43:45
me is this
43:47
feeling that you need to
43:50
consider yourself superior is
43:53
so strange. Like, where
43:55
does that come from? Like,
43:59
what is that? that about. I
44:02
remember when my children
44:04
were little, they were
44:06
talking about their school. They
44:08
went to Olone, which is
44:10
a public school in Palo Alto.
44:13
And they were saying, our school is the
44:15
best school in California because we have a
44:17
library. And I said, well, almost
44:20
every school, I mean, I wasn't trying, I was
44:22
just, I was like, what is this? Why do
44:24
we have to go to the best school? Like,
44:26
where does that belief happen? And
44:28
I said, almost every school in
44:30
California has a library. And they
44:32
were like, crestfallen. And I
44:34
said, but that doesn't mean
44:36
you can't love your school. Like, like,
44:40
what's that about? I
44:42
think that we have
44:44
wrapped up this idea
44:46
of capitalism
44:50
and personal
44:52
responsibility, and
44:55
like opportunity, the idea that
44:57
you too can be a millionaire,
44:59
right? A
45:02
billionaire. A millionaire is not enough.
45:04
I'm so sorry. I'm so passe.
45:06
I'm so yesterday. I'm so last
45:08
year with millionaire, billionaire, I'm sorry.
45:11
And the kind
45:13
of like the best part
45:15
of what's possible in America,
45:18
like that, yeah, that aspirational
45:20
story. And we do not
45:22
understand the downside of that. Yeah.
45:24
I love Mike Rowe, who does
45:27
the Dirty Jobs series.
45:30
And I think
45:33
we have learned to
45:35
disrespect work. Yeah,
45:38
that people that
45:40
pay their taxes are, are
45:42
schmucks. People that follow
45:44
the rules are, you
45:47
know, their marks to be
45:49
taken advantage of. And this
45:51
idea that it doesn't matter how
45:53
much money you have, you
45:55
need more, like, it's a
45:57
constant competition. And more importantly,
46:00
it doesn't matter how you got your
46:02
money. Yeah. Right. Right. You
46:04
can addict a whole nation to
46:07
opioids. And just go ahead and pay some money
46:09
and put your name on the way. Right.
46:12
Did you read Empire of Pain? I did.
46:15
Oh, my gosh, that book. I
46:18
mean, like, like we have this really, yeah,
46:21
habit of, of enshrining
46:23
failure, right? The kind of
46:25
the head, some of the
46:28
hedge fund guys, some of the folks
46:30
that kind of go into, you know,
46:32
this company has been in this small
46:34
town, it employs 2000 people,
46:36
and it's been here for 50 years. And
46:39
this financial body kind of
46:41
comes in and strips it of its
46:43
resources and pulls all the money out
46:45
and then says, Okay, our work is
46:47
done, saddled it with debt. And
46:50
then we're shocked when the plant closes
46:52
down. Yeah, and 2000 people are out
46:54
of work. And, oh, why are these
46:56
small towns in America dying? And we
46:58
act like we don't know what happened.
47:00
And those are the people that give
47:02
the talks at the big conferences, because
47:04
they're the winners, because they were able
47:06
to strip the value. I think
47:09
of it as I call them extractors. Yeah,
47:11
in the book, I have
47:14
a metaphor around owners and
47:17
renters, that we are overrun,
47:19
you know, with extractors. So in
47:21
my mind, what's the owner and
47:23
owner is concerned with
47:25
the long term viability of an asset.
47:27
So they fix the foundation and then
47:29
electrical panels and the plumbing, the unsexy
47:31
stuff that nobody's even going to see.
47:34
But I know that this is how
47:36
to preserve this asset for years and
47:38
years and years to come. renters
47:41
use peel and stick tile. Yeah,
47:44
because they're temporary users of that space.
47:46
They're just, they're just here for the
47:48
seat, that when is the lease up
47:50
and then I'm out? Right. And that
47:52
doesn't I'm not denigrating renters. I'm just
47:55
saying, we are not renters
47:57
of this country. We're literally the
47:59
owners. And we act like
48:02
extractors. We are overrun
48:04
with extractors. And we
48:06
have elevated these people and made
48:08
them gods and heroes that not
48:11
only are they not committed to
48:13
planting trees for the next generation,
48:15
they are pulling up the trees
48:17
that somebody else planted. Like, how
48:19
can these be the heroes of
48:21
the current American story? How did
48:23
we get here? So
48:25
this idea of celebration
48:27
of extraction as victory,
48:32
it has to, it cannot, it has to stop.
48:38
I have two quick questions. And just,
48:41
I haven't read the book unfortunately, I don't have a
48:43
copy, but is
48:45
the title of the book a
48:48
nod to the Pledge of Allegiance Indivisible?
48:50
It's the only place I've ever seen that word. I've
48:53
never seen that word again. And it
48:56
seems like, especially what you're saying in
48:58
the last part is that there's a
49:00
nod to American exceptionalism of like being
49:03
the best at being number one. And
49:05
only in this country could someone like Martin
49:09
Screlli, Farmer Bro, be
49:11
considered a polarizing figure instead
49:13
of a villain. Where
49:16
because they reached the top
49:18
or pinnacle of being
49:22
like willing to rob rich people
49:25
poor people that they could,
49:27
he could still be on other people's shows and
49:30
still be on someone's committee or board. Who
49:32
is, who? Martin
49:35
Screlli, he was, it's
49:38
Farmer Bro, I forget, but he,
49:40
I think he raised some
49:43
medication from like something like $30 to $800. Got
49:47
it. And people needed it
49:49
to live. And so he eventually- That was
49:51
probably made his money. Yes, he
49:53
eventually got sent to jail for
49:56
fraud or something like that. And there's
49:59
a lot. You can Google him. But
50:01
he's not been, like, I think he
50:04
bought, like, a very rare
50:06
Wu-Tang album, like, for $2 million.
50:09
And then Wu-Tang said, please give
50:11
it back, because we don't want you to
50:13
have it. Wow. We don't want you to have it.
50:16
It's just that someone like that. Yeah.
50:19
And someone
50:21
who is just considered, like, universally
50:25
disliked, going
50:27
back to Texas, like Ted Cruz, that
50:30
still could be, someone could be like, yeah,
50:32
I'm for that guy. I'm for that person. Oh, my
50:34
gosh. I have the best Ted Cruz story.
50:37
Oh, let's hear it. You remember the
50:39
freeze that we had in 2021? Like,
50:44
unbelievable. A whole state is
50:46
without power. We
50:49
are freezing to death. In Houston, we
50:51
don't have that kind of weather. So
50:53
people's houses weren't built for that. Even
50:55
your fireplace, if you have a fireplace,
50:57
it didn't really put out heat. Like,
50:59
it was really an incredibly tragic time.
51:03
I don't think the rest of the
51:06
country even understood how dangerous that storm
51:08
was. But
51:11
you've all heard how Ted Cruz took
51:13
his family to Cancun, because
51:15
he wanted to avoid the cold. And I
51:17
was talking with someone about that. And
51:20
I was horrified, because I was like, wait,
51:22
aren't you our leader? Like, aren't you supposed
51:24
to be helping? And the
51:26
other person said, Doldanese, what did you want
51:28
him to do? He's not an electrician. Oh,
51:32
god. And
51:34
that's why literally all these stories
51:37
are why I wrote the book.
51:39
Like, how did we get here?
51:41
How did we get here where
51:44
we find excuses for the most
51:46
ridiculous behavior? And
51:48
because we have this
51:50
ridiculous reductionist idea of
51:53
red or blue, how crazy is it
51:55
to think that the whole world can
51:58
be reduced to two per cent? perspective.
52:00
It's just the most thing in the world.
52:02
But let's put that aside. But the idea
52:04
that he's on my team. He's my guy.
52:06
So I'm gonna back his play no matter
52:08
what he does. It was
52:11
just shocking to me. And so
52:13
in this space, again, extractors, you
52:15
don't mind taking the paycheck. But when it's
52:17
cold, you're going to get your family nice
52:19
and warm. You're not going to be checking
52:21
on your constituents or seeing what you can
52:24
do to expedite resources like
52:26
none of that was happening. And you
52:28
live in a mansion. Yeah, the
52:30
richest part of town. Like, what is this
52:33
community supposed to do that literally has people
52:35
freezing to death in their beds? Like,
52:37
wow. And that idea this, this
52:40
like justification of
52:42
extraction, over
52:45
and over and over again, has had
52:47
the most dispiriting impact on
52:49
our whole culture on our society, because
52:51
now we've made it stupid to have
52:53
that job. It's stupid to work like
52:56
that. I don't know why you would
52:58
do that. I don't know why. That's
53:00
been everything is beneath everybody.
53:02
So what we end up having
53:04
is, like, nobody
53:07
feels like they own this place.
53:09
This is my house that I've
53:12
inherited. And I've got to sweep
53:15
the porch and I've got to
53:17
mow the lawn. And my turn
53:19
my generation's turn to renovate the
53:21
kitchen or update the bathroom. Like,
53:23
that's what we're supposed to be
53:25
doing. But everyone is like
53:28
just in their Lulu lemon sitting at
53:30
Starbucks. Yeah, check out. And so what
53:32
do we have to do to
53:35
kind of remind people of
53:37
the very necessary work of
53:39
America? This is not this
53:41
is not on autopilot. It
53:43
requires an investment. It requires
53:45
work. And instead of
53:47
doing that, we're not only not
53:49
doing the work. We're literally elevating
53:51
people who are famous for not
53:53
doing the work for creating work
53:55
for the rest of us. Yeah.
53:57
But we have other people like how do we
54:00
get here and I want with
54:02
the book to just remind people of
54:05
their power, remind them who
54:07
they are because we have forgotten who we
54:09
are. We are living beneath
54:11
our privilege. And so how
54:13
do we kind of lean back in and
54:16
find whatever our work is? And there's
54:18
a lot of messaging, right? If you're,
54:21
I mean, you're over 22
54:23
and you don't have a billion dollar
54:25
company. What are you even doing with
54:27
your life? You loser, right?
54:29
Like that's the message. We have all
54:31
these messages that tell, tell all of
54:33
us that we're nothing. Why?
54:35
Who benefits from all
54:38
of us thinking like we're nothing. Yeah.
54:40
Right? Yeah. Yeah. We always talk
54:43
about voter suppression. If voting didn't
54:45
matter, they wouldn't be trying to
54:47
stop you from voting. Yeah. They
54:49
do, right? Yeah. So I just
54:51
want to remind everyone who
54:54
we are and what we're capable
54:56
of. I think it's essential. You
54:59
know, that is a beautiful way
55:01
to end from your mouth to
55:04
everyone's ears, everyone in this,
55:07
in this country, because we should,
55:09
we should honor one another. We should honor
55:11
the work. And, and
55:15
we, we can get out of this mess. So
55:18
thank you. You did incredible work.
55:20
A true labor of love your book.
55:22
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
55:24
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
55:26
I always, my mantra is
55:29
there's no greater gift than a gift
55:31
of your attention. So thank you so
55:33
much for reading it and for
55:35
caring about it. I'm so glad we got a
55:37
chance to talk today. Denny,
55:39
one more time, the name of your book and where people can
55:41
get it. The name of
55:44
the book is indivisible. And if you
55:46
go to indivisible now, you can see
55:48
all the places that you can order
55:50
it or walk into your local neighborhood
55:52
bookstore, independent bookstore and see if they've
55:54
got it and hold it up so
55:56
people can see it, know what it
55:58
looks like from those. Who
56:00
are watching on YouTube? All right By
56:05
five or six copies today and
56:07
share it Thank
56:10
you so much Thank you Thank
56:13
you for having on the podcast and for those
56:15
listening and if you have some comments on what
56:17
we discussed today Please send us an email at
56:19
hello at radical respect book
56:21
calm and we would love to hear from you
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More