Episode Transcript
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0:03
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the
0:05
Radical Candor podcast. I'm Kim Scott.
0:07
I'm Jason Roza. I'm Amy Sandler.
0:10
In the past, we've talked about how
0:12
to know whether or not being a
0:14
manager is right for you. And we've
0:16
also talked a lot about manager burnout.
0:19
Today, we're exploring the question, what
0:21
if nobody wants to be a
0:23
manager at all? Vizier, a leader
0:25
in people analytics surveyed 1000 individual
0:28
contributors about whether they wanted
0:30
to become people managers. Almost
0:33
two thirds, 64% said thanks,
0:35
but no thanks. There
0:37
was a TikTok video from a user
0:39
named Kia Abdul. And I hope I
0:41
got that name right with over 2
0:44
million views. And
0:46
in that TikTok, they were
0:48
equating management with an unpaid
0:50
internship due to all the
0:52
responsibilities that managers aren't compensated
0:55
for. There was another TikTok where another
0:57
user said that she stopped being a
0:59
manager in tech, because there was
1:01
no work life balance. She
1:04
had zero decision making power, and
1:06
felt that companies didn't care about their
1:08
people as much as they did about
1:10
the bottom line. So that
1:12
is what we're going to be talking about today.
1:15
Just a little bit more data. This
1:18
Vizier survey, they found that employee
1:21
ambition was
1:23
primarily outside the workplace, the
1:25
top three priorities. And just
1:27
think about it for yourself, does
1:29
this resonate the top three priorities,
1:31
spending time with family and friends,
1:33
two thirds of folks put that
1:35
as their top three priority, being
1:37
physically or mentally healthy, 64% and
1:41
traveling 58%. Kim,
1:44
Jason, any guess on where people
1:46
manager came in on those
1:49
numbers? I
1:51
bet it was number 11. Oh, so
1:54
good at repeating the notes. And being
1:59
a student. We the executive in this
2:02
list of twelve came in. Ah.
2:05
Dead last. so. The.
2:07
Question we're talking about today
2:10
is Kim and Jason. Can
2:12
we have a world without
2:14
managers? Know. We cannot.
2:17
Ah, and I think.
2:20
Like. It is So many things are
2:22
popping. In. My mind as you were
2:24
as as. You are describing these
2:26
that stock videos and particular and
2:29
I think if you become a
2:31
manager for money that is the
2:33
wrong reasons to become a manager.
2:36
Ah I mean I think ah
2:38
a. Professor. Of mine at
2:40
business school used to ask Richard Turbo
2:43
Usaf d Want to do the things
2:45
that managers do or do you want
2:47
to be a manager and the right
2:49
reason is to do the things that
2:52
managers do. I
2:54
think also on that. On
2:56
that dizzy or survey.
3:00
Or. Worse. Is
3:02
also. Like. Good worth,
3:04
worth that you love is to
3:06
me when up with that ahead
3:08
of travel and my list of
3:10
things I wouldn't always. cars are
3:12
often. I hate my job but
3:14
like once, not now I would
3:16
put you. Know work as
3:18
number three, right behind time
3:21
with loved ones and physical/mental
3:23
health. I can win as
3:26
and. That the other thing about work and a
3:28
know why I was. A spent all
3:30
say both days this weekend weeding.
3:32
Which. Is works that I love
3:34
to do and therefore I love
3:37
my yard. It does not compensate
3:39
for get paid for that work
3:41
but it it and and there's
3:43
a line and. Heart.
3:46
Of Darkness, a book about. What's
3:48
his name is working on his boat in
3:50
as there's a line in their words as
3:52
he did enough work on the boat that
3:55
he loved the work. I think work and
3:57
lover actually connected. and
3:59
so Anyway, that's not really a
4:01
way of answering your question. Well, it is. It's
4:04
a really interesting way because I think
4:06
even what we may have heard from
4:08
Professor Tedlow, going back to
4:11
this survey, the question
4:13
of why individual contributors don't want
4:15
to become people managers, 91% were
4:18
citing some kind of barrier.
4:22
And the top reasons that we're
4:24
deterring ICs from wanting to be people
4:26
managers, expectations for
4:28
increased stress and pressure, 40%, the
4:31
prospect of working longer, more hours
4:35
was The third one was
4:37
that people were happy with their current role. And
4:39
then the fourth one was a lack of
4:41
interest in leadership responsibilities. That was about 30%.
4:45
And so I think as
4:47
I reflect on that and what you're talking about,
4:49
the work itself,
4:52
you know, maybe if we ask
4:54
them about weeding, we might get a different
4:56
response, but the actual work of being a
4:58
manager does not seem, seems like
5:00
a lot of stress and pressure, the proverbial
5:03
juice not being worth
5:05
the squeeze, at least from some
5:07
of what we're seeing with these, I'd
5:09
say, TikToks and data. Yeah, I
5:11
mean, I think if you don't, if you're not
5:13
interested in doing the things that
5:16
managers do, if you do, if the
5:18
idea of having a one on one
5:20
with someone and asking them about their
5:22
life, if the idea of
5:24
having career conversations and trying to
5:26
understand what motivates people and how
5:28
you can help them take a
5:30
step in the direction of their
5:33
dreams, if those things
5:35
sound uninteresting to you, then
5:37
you should not, absolutely should
5:39
not become a manager. I
5:41
think I've told this story before, but you
5:43
know, play it again, Sam, I'm going to tell
5:45
it again. So,
5:47
so there
5:49
was a moment when I was working
5:52
at Apple, teaching, managing at Apple, and
5:54
we always tried to have these inspirational
5:56
leaders come in and, and, and kickoff
6:00
the class and there were
6:02
a lot of inspirational leaders at
6:04
apple. And one time i
6:07
never knew who they were like i don't
6:09
know who found these folks and brought them
6:11
in to kick off the class that i met
6:13
them usually as i walked in the door i'm
6:16
about to teach a stay in a half
6:18
long seminar and this guy walks in any
6:20
stands in front of the class i'm about
6:22
to teach any said well you all. i
6:25
have made a deal with apple they
6:28
do not ask me to manage
6:30
people and i continue to work
6:32
here. i
6:34
was like that is not really
6:36
the inspiring note. but
6:40
it was very honest actually i was able
6:42
to do something with that i was like
6:45
look if you all don't want to manage
6:47
people you should not you can have a
6:49
successful career at this company. As
6:51
we just saw with whatever his name
6:53
was it was super successful he made
6:55
a ton of money at apple but
6:58
he did not manage people because
7:00
he had no interest in managing
7:02
people so that's. One
7:06
of the things that was bringing to mind this you
7:08
were talking to me. emotional
7:10
labor has always been part of being a manager because
7:12
what you know what you said cam is like talking
7:14
to people about their lives and their goals and like
7:17
all of that stuff is true and it's a big
7:19
part of what being a manager
7:21
is but there's also like assigning. Work
7:25
and making sure that people that you're
7:27
holding people accountable to the things that they've agreed
7:29
to do or rather that you're
7:32
you know you're inspiring them to follow
7:34
through on the commitments that they've made. Is
7:37
like the positive way to say it but
7:39
i think in the last five years
7:41
in particular that like the emotional labor
7:43
has taken on a different tone like
7:45
that there's so much collective trauma from
7:47
the pandemic and. The
7:51
the like the refocus
7:53
the at least in the US the refocus
7:55
on the you know the fight for social
7:58
justice and equality. Like
8:00
the emotional labor has notched
8:02
up in a significant way.
8:06
And it often has, it has
8:08
something to do with helping people continue to enjoy their
8:12
work. But I
8:15
was talking to a friend of mine who is
8:17
an incredibly talented product manager
8:22
and someone who was like
8:24
one of my favorite people to work with. And
8:27
she basically said that between
8:30
the pandemic and having a kid, she
8:32
has lost the ability to think critically
8:34
about any time horizon beyond a
8:37
year. Yeah. Like
8:40
she can't think about it anymore. Like she's sort
8:42
of like, am I going to have a house
8:44
in six months? Is like that that's the level
8:46
of like plant future planning
8:48
that she's doing. And I think that's why a
8:50
lot of people are elevating these other things like
8:53
travel and spending time with loved ones and all
8:55
this other stuff, because, you know, we're,
8:58
we're still, the nerve is still pretty raw.
9:00
You know, people are still living with the
9:03
reality that, you know, it's
9:06
not the future is not guaranteed. And so
9:08
some of that, I feel like some of
9:10
the inspirational, like part of leadership and
9:13
people management has been replaced by,
9:16
by like supporting people in their
9:18
like trauma response to, to like losing a
9:20
sense of like where they're going in their
9:22
future. I, and I, I
9:24
would guess that that is
9:27
very obvious to the people
9:29
being managed. You know what I'm
9:31
saying? They know what they're saying in their one-on-ones. They
9:33
know what those conversations are like. And so they're like,
9:35
do I want to deal with me on a regular
9:37
basis? Like, no, I'm not someone else's job. Yes,
9:41
yes, yes. And I think,
9:44
you know, the a
9:46
lot of great leadership training comes out of
9:48
the military. And in
9:51
the military, obviously people,
9:53
I mean, trauma is
9:55
inherent in the job. If You're,
9:58
especially if you're in. A Combat.
10:01
Situation. And. I
10:03
think that the The Millet, the leadership,
10:06
Training in the military is always then in a
10:08
you take care of your people and your people
10:10
take care. Of of the work and
10:12
I like your job as a leader
10:14
as first and foremost. To
10:17
take care not only of people, but
10:19
people and their families and. At
10:22
So I don't think this is new
10:24
per se. I mean, trauma is not
10:26
new, there's been trauma for. I mean
10:29
I think maybe our willingness to talk
10:31
about trauma is maybe a little bit
10:33
know, but people have been traumatized always
10:36
forever. Hundred percent agree, but I think people
10:38
are. That. It's not new.
10:40
You are correct, yeah, but I
10:42
think there's a changed expectation as
10:44
to who has to our managers'
10:46
responsibility in helping. And individual
10:49
contributor manage that like match
10:51
their other on either that
10:53
or lives Yes. Yeah, I
10:55
think Amazon Peace and Know as as
10:57
a Reddit thread arm and clear guidance
10:59
and I'm just gonna read it because
11:01
I think it mates. Flesh
11:04
Out Jason what you were sharing with your
11:06
own reflections is has caught been a managers
11:08
the most lonely role as ever had. Like
11:10
you get shit from both directions and you
11:12
don't really have peers to complain to you,
11:14
just kind of have to deal with it
11:16
all in your own. And. Not sure if
11:18
this is just my company, but a lot of the
11:20
stuff I hate is what I have very little control
11:22
over. Strategy. Get set by
11:24
my manager, salary and policies by Hr.
11:27
I just get to communicate this lovely
11:29
stuff backwards and forwards. The did I
11:31
like is the stuff around building a
11:33
great team and coaching people. But.
11:35
The negatives outweigh the positives ninety percent
11:38
of the time. I. Think that's
11:40
very well said sir. The problem of
11:42
being a middle manager. I mean.
11:45
That when you're a middle
11:47
manager, you own decisions that
11:49
you weren't necessarily involved in
11:51
making, and that you may
11:53
disagree with vehemently. And I
11:55
think it's really important to.
11:57
Think. About. How. Did. with
12:00
that and to be very explicit about how to
12:02
deal with it. And I
12:04
think the most important thing you can do
12:06
when you're in that situation of having to
12:09
communicate a decision that you disagree with to
12:11
a team of people who know you well
12:13
enough, they're going to be able to tell
12:15
that you disagree. But
12:19
it doesn't do any good to say, yeah,
12:21
this is stupid, but we have to do
12:23
it anyway. That's not inspiring for anyone, although
12:25
it may be tempting. I
12:27
think the thing you want to do is
12:30
you want to, before communicating the decision, you
12:33
want to go to your boss and
12:35
ask some questions. You
12:38
want to try to understand the
12:40
rationale behind this decision, which still
12:42
doesn't mean you have
12:44
to agree with it. But
12:46
if you take the extra time to
12:49
try to broaden your perspective,
12:51
because very often when a
12:55
decision gets made, it gets made
12:57
by people who are taking 12
12:59
things into account, whereas you're
13:02
taking one thing, your team's thing
13:04
into account. And so
13:06
it may not make any sense from where
13:08
you sit, but when you try to understand
13:10
the broader picture, even though you still
13:12
disagree with it, you may be able to at least
13:14
acknowledge these other points. And I
13:17
think that can be very helpful both
13:19
in terms of communicating with your team,
13:22
but also in terms of growing in your
13:24
career and trying to understand your boss's point
13:26
of view and a different
13:28
perspective. That's great guidance. As
13:30
you were talking, what it made me think is it's
13:33
almost the same guidance as what do
13:35
you do when you get feedback you disagree with, which
13:37
is you have to find the part that you do
13:39
agree with and focus on that.
13:42
That's the way to move forward. We
13:44
don't want to reject out of hand something just
13:46
because we don't agree with part
13:49
of it. And I think,
13:51
you know, just Kim, you're calling out
13:53
the piece about middle management is a
13:55
really important one. There was
13:57
a piece in In Fortune and they... We're
14:00
sharing some research around out roughly
14:02
two thirds of leaders reported having
14:04
more responsibilities at work now than
14:06
they did pre Pandemic on which
14:08
was shared by a third of
14:10
individual contributors. and so this increase
14:12
in responsibilities has led to an
14:14
increase in anxiety and at share
14:17
some middle managers calling them in
14:19
own organisations. shock absorbers are in
14:21
a particularly difficult spot. Because they
14:23
are, they lack the senior leadership
14:25
see no access to support read
14:27
resources. They have to enforce these
14:29
policies they may not endorse. I
14:31
just wanted to kind of reinforce
14:33
this role of in a were
14:35
middle manager said but also going
14:37
back to listen to what you
14:39
were saying about kind of. Where.
14:42
We were before the pandemic, and now that.
14:44
You. Know not only having. The.
14:46
The actual emotional trauma and physical
14:49
trauma that people have navigated. But
14:51
also there's people that have. Far.
14:54
More responsibilities and they may have had.
14:57
Three. Four years ago. I.
14:59
Am I was gonna say i think. Part.
15:02
Of what happened is is that companies were like
15:05
we don't know what to do this when I
15:07
can provide mental health benefits, when I can provide
15:09
you additional resources Be know people have these problems
15:11
Manager deal with it. Like.
15:14
That's what happened to the majority of managers
15:16
in the pandemic. They're. Just basically told
15:18
like we know all these things happen when
15:20
I spend any more money on resources or
15:22
help for you and you have to deal
15:24
with it. So. That I
15:27
think like even though it might not
15:29
be sort of on cheaper and increasing
15:31
responsibility, I think there might have been
15:33
an increase in frequency of having to.
15:35
Sort. Of perform some of the responsibilities of
15:37
being a manager without any additional support.
15:40
My theory Want to One I'm
15:42
positing I'd seems you backed up by
15:45
the data is that people are
15:47
beating. The their meeting employees
15:49
in some state of crisis forgot
15:51
trauma just like some Cf crisis
15:53
more frequently on earth by a
15:55
more regular basis. Yeah, right now
15:57
than they did. Ten. years ago
16:00
Yeah and it might actually be the
16:02
case that we're meeting the same number of
16:04
people and about the same level of crisis
16:06
but people are more willing to reveal that
16:08
there is some state of crisis that works
16:10
i might be the case of the yeah
16:12
with the case people just uncomfortable talking about
16:14
it. So you could be like society you
16:16
know maybe net net it's an improvement from
16:19
the perspective of a manager who's like how
16:21
many times a day do i have to
16:23
put on like my crisis management hat. Yeah
16:25
i think they're picking that had up and putting it
16:28
on a lot more frequently than they can they at
16:30
least they perceive they were in the past. I
16:33
am so and i think
16:35
that. There's
16:37
a fixed number of hours and energy
16:39
is a is a is a sort
16:42
of is a depletable resource and
16:44
so when you say hey it's your job and
16:47
then you're also like but it's also your job
16:49
to do the goal setting pricing. Yeah
16:52
yeah it's like that's also your job that's
16:54
how you wind up with a stack of
16:56
plates that's like way bigger than you can
16:58
possibly clean in your in a shift like
17:00
every day you come in and there's a stack of dirty
17:02
plates on your desk. You know like okay i'm gonna try
17:04
to get through my stack of dirty plates but
17:06
there's no time at which you get to the
17:08
bottom of the stack i think that's how a lot of managers
17:11
feel i think a lot of individual contributors
17:13
feel the same way but at least
17:15
in this data it's at a slightly lower
17:18
like it's a lower percentage of the
17:20
overall population than manager. Yeah
17:22
that makes sense you know so i think
17:24
as we try to give some guidance to
17:26
to the group there was
17:28
a an entrepreneur.com piece where
17:30
visitor CEO ryan wong shared.
17:33
Quote one important step is
17:35
to redefine the meaning of
17:37
manager partly this is about
17:39
reconceptualizing the role the tech
17:41
industry for instance has popularized
17:43
player coaches. These are
17:45
employees who continue to contribute as
17:47
individuals while also leading small teams
17:50
of trusted. Colleagues well
17:52
this balance can be challenging to
17:54
strike the upside is sustained engagement
17:56
with your field and growth of
17:58
new management skills. So
18:00
I'm curious, Kim, Jason,
18:03
do you see, is there a need
18:05
for companies to start to maybe separate
18:07
out some of these parts
18:10
of a manager's role?
18:13
What do you think is a path forward to make
18:16
being a manager more attractive?
18:20
I think explaining to people what managers
18:22
do and being very clear
18:24
about it is
18:26
important. Managers should be
18:28
soliciting feedback before they give it. They
18:31
should be giving praise. They should be
18:33
giving a certain amount of criticism in
18:35
these impromptu conversations. They should be
18:38
having career conversations. They should
18:40
be just spelling out what
18:42
managers do. I think another
18:45
metaphor is not going to solve the problem.
18:49
I don't know that this is
18:51
a metaphor. It sounds to me
18:53
like they're actually trying to maybe
18:56
even separate out the coaching part with
18:58
the responsibility part when I see player
19:00
coaches. That's how I interpret it. I
19:02
don't know, Jason, do you read it differently? Here's
19:06
the problem with that sentence. It
19:11
is the part that reads, small teams of
19:13
trusted colleagues. My
19:18
experience with the tech industries embracing
19:20
of player coaches is that they're
19:22
like, you're going to be a player coach
19:24
and we're going to give you the same size team as
19:26
we used to give people who were only people managers. You're
19:29
still going to get a team
19:31
of 10 or 12 or 15
19:34
people that you're responsible for, but
19:36
you're also going to have individual
19:38
contributor responsibilities and strategy responsibilities and
19:40
communication responsibilities and HR responsibilities. Now
19:44
we're back into the TikTok where this
19:46
is an unpaid internship. You
19:48
still won't be able to buy a house or afford you
19:51
to pay off your student loan. I
19:54
don't have my good microphone. No,
19:56
you're exactly right, Brandy. If
20:00
middle management is the stuff that people have
20:02
to take and there are certain and like
20:04
they're cern unavoidable things about being a middle
20:07
manager I think that emotional labor is unavoidable.
20:09
You should embrace it. You should look forward
20:11
to it. It should be part what gets
20:13
you excited as like I'm going to help
20:15
this team the As ah be a sort
20:17
of like happy and functional as they possibly
20:19
can to achieve our goals and maybe take
20:21
a step in and direction their dreams like
20:23
Emotional Labor Party have to be excited for.
20:26
But. Like the unavoidable parts of like
20:28
communicating decisions that other people make.
20:30
Those that's just unavoidable. That unavoidable
20:32
part of like having to. Ah,
20:36
To assign work that you know that
20:38
is not a thing of, people are
20:40
most excited about unavoidable artwork. I don't
20:42
think it is unavoidable that people must
20:44
be player coach, as I think there's
20:46
a possibility of least in my mind,
20:49
that you could have a role that's
20:51
primarily focused on people management. It
20:53
doesn't mean that you never such a project
20:55
again. But. I do think this idea
20:57
that. You. Know. If. You
20:59
treat managers as. Half an
21:02
individual contributor and half. A
21:04
coach Or half a player and half a coach. Or
21:07
I feel like that. That. Ideas as
21:09
like dead On arrival. Ah, because
21:11
one or the other of those things is
21:13
going to be significantly undermined by the company's
21:15
inability to to like properly assess how much
21:18
a single human being and possibly do in
21:20
both those roles. there might be a company
21:22
and busier might be the one where they
21:24
actually you know I could see a player
21:27
coach if you have a team of three
21:29
or a team of four. And.
21:31
Like you've worked for them for a long time
21:33
and you truly have an individual contributor Role could
21:35
work. But that's not
21:37
my experience like most companies don't. Actually I
21:39
thought how the allocate resources in the player
21:41
coach role. They they did
21:43
treat management like an an
21:46
unpaid internship. I think that ragu that
21:48
like when you gets on with your work send
21:50
you can manage. Yeah, or or you
21:52
manage all day long and then you do your.
21:54
Work and now all night on?
21:56
Yeah, now I have. Ah, and
21:59
that's bad. that is
22:01
not sustainable. I
22:04
think also, I mean, the thing that
22:06
I think they're trying to get at
22:09
with Player Coach that I do think
22:11
has some merit is
22:13
that, when
22:16
you become a manager, you shouldn't expect
22:18
people to do what you say. Right.
22:21
I think one of the things that
22:24
sometimes causes new managers real
22:26
stress is, they
22:28
become a manager and they expect people
22:31
to do what they say. They
22:34
don't know that telling people what to do
22:36
doesn't work. Then they feel like either there's
22:38
something wrong with them or there's something wrong
22:40
that their direct reports are
22:44
intransigence or not doing what they
22:46
say. Then
22:49
they start behaving really stupidly and
22:51
being cruel to others. That's
22:55
how the brutal incompetence
22:57
comes into management. I
23:01
think that's true in general. In
23:03
life, I mean, the times when I have behaved
23:06
my worst are those times when
23:08
I really expected someone to do
23:10
what I said, to listen to
23:12
me, and of course they didn't.
23:15
Then I felt my authority was
23:17
challenged and my ego kicked
23:19
in and I
23:21
did something that I regret. Yeah.
23:24
I think teaching people when they
23:26
become managers, don't expect
23:29
that people will do what you say because you have
23:31
this position. I think the quote
23:34
from Bill Clinton is, being
23:36
the president is an awful lot
23:38
like being the overseer of a
23:40
cemetery. There's a lot of people
23:42
under you, but nobody's listening. I
23:47
don't think I ever heard that one. Oh, you
23:49
haven't heard that one? No. That's a good one.
23:52
That struck me when I was managing. I
23:56
think I was at Juice when I heard him say That. That's
24:00
how the revolution begins with with
24:02
the at the amazing as from
24:04
us at the cemetery I found
24:06
ah the we're what's on your
24:08
mind. The the principle of
24:10
player coach like to me the the
24:12
reason why the concept is valuable is
24:15
because we want managers have. Good.
24:18
And not like good enough. Skills.
24:20
That. When the team needs it
24:22
or an individual needs that, they can kind of
24:24
roll up their sleeves and and health. I.
24:27
Think of the of. Like.
24:29
This. It's really important not to lose.
24:32
Ah, I'm not a lose. The ability to
24:34
like actually do some of the work you don't
24:36
need to be will do absolutely everything on the
24:39
team. like the value of a team is like
24:41
you can hire specialist who can do things that
24:43
no one else can do a massive better and
24:45
faster. What like if you if you really aren't,
24:48
if you if you become allergic to the work
24:50
here to you're gonna be done the water because
24:52
people will sense that you're unwilling and unable to
24:54
help. If you
24:56
do all the work you also be since I
24:59
this is the as as he manager vs micromanager.
25:01
ah dichotomy but you want to be able to
25:03
be a foreigner but sometimes being a top earner
25:05
actually means like getting your hands dirty and doing
25:07
some of the work like in order to be
25:09
a good thought party have to be like down
25:12
in the mock. But. The Persian and
25:14
sorting through it to find the brass. Yes,
25:16
Yes, and they have to notice that
25:18
when they come and talk to you.
25:20
you helped them. You know
25:23
at see something that they said otherwise
25:25
not have achieved or do something faster
25:27
or they help you know and and
25:29
you have to know. What the work
25:31
is in order to be able to get
25:34
that kind of that? Isis as a general
25:36
rule. Yeah, I would. Like to get
25:38
your your advice on what can
25:40
people do and especially whether I
25:42
am a middle manager or I
25:44
am. i am in an
25:46
organization where we are having we seen
25:48
our survey results and and there there's
25:50
reinforcing what we've just been talking about
25:53
self one of the things again from
25:55
this this year study it said for
25:57
for employers code only twelve percent of
25:59
or Respondents say that nothing would
26:01
convince them to become people managers
26:04
Unsurprisingly pay is the primary
26:07
motivator for respondents 71%
26:10
saying better compensation would incentivize
26:12
them to become people
26:14
managers 45% say
26:17
better benefits and 26% say
26:19
more opportunities for a career
26:21
advancement So I know
26:23
Kim we started off with you saying, you know,
26:26
sort of don't go into it just for the
26:28
money But to me I kind of interpret this
26:30
more about if this is this unpaid
26:32
Internship and I'm having to do all these other
26:35
Responsibilities that haven't necessarily been
26:38
explicitly Named that that's
26:40
what people are asking for that. They
26:42
want to be paid for For
26:46
being both the sort of player and the coach
26:49
Is that how you read that? I
26:51
read that when when you were reading that
26:53
what I was thinking is people are not
26:56
Explaining what the job is and therefore people don't
26:58
want to do it. Um, I
27:00
mean, I think like if you become
27:02
a lawyer only because you want money
27:05
you're not gonna be a happy lawyer I just I
27:08
think that you need to be able to
27:10
under and I think part of the problem
27:12
with management is either it gets treated like
27:15
an unpaid internship or
27:17
it gets treated as this thing you have to
27:19
do in order to advance in your career and
27:22
and that is Those
27:25
are both bad reasons to become
27:27
managers You become a manager because
27:29
you want to do the
27:31
job and you find it exciting and
27:33
then to Work with a team of
27:35
people and help them take a
27:38
step in the direction of their dreams So
27:40
do is it a problem that
27:42
we going back to employee ambition
27:44
that there's a large number
27:47
of you know Number 11 people manager and
27:49
C-suite executive number 12 like is that an
27:51
alarm bell or is that what is that
27:53
signaling? Kim as you were as you
27:55
were saying that one of the things that that it brought up
27:57
for me is I think there There's
28:01
organizations and managers are in
28:03
kind of a double bind,
28:05
but it gets created by,
28:07
you were talking, Kim, earlier about how at
28:09
Apple there was these sort of parallel tracks, right?
28:11
There's like a technical track that you could use
28:13
to advance in your career, and then
28:15
there's this management track. And
28:18
in my experience, in
28:21
order to advance in the technical track, it
28:24
requires, there's like hard skills. There's like, yeah,
28:26
there's very, very, very sort of like specific
28:28
things that you need to be able to
28:30
do, types of complexity you need to be
28:32
able to handle and all this other stuff.
28:35
But before you get to the sort of
28:37
like, the staff engineer is like a common
28:39
title for the person at
28:41
the top of that career ladder. Before
28:45
you get there, there's all these other stages. And it's sort
28:47
of in some ways, there's almost
28:49
like an apprenticeship model as you
28:51
move up, which is like, there's
28:53
slow expansion of responsibility. You
28:56
sort of get bigger scope of projects and things like
28:58
that. In the management track,
29:00
there's a step, there's like an
29:02
individual contributor to manager. And
29:07
already you're sort of expected to be able to handle all
29:09
these things. And so part of what I
29:11
hear you saying is, if we're not explaining
29:13
what the job is, if we're not teaching people how
29:15
to do the job, like to do the work of
29:18
being a manager, we are
29:20
creating a, this is the double
29:22
bind of the organizations have created
29:24
them for themselves. There's no sort
29:26
of like soft on ramp to
29:28
management in most organizations, in
29:30
part because they don't even know what they're asking
29:32
people to do. So just by defining it, be
29:34
clear about it, that would take a step in
29:36
the right direction. But then like helping people, training
29:38
people, finding some way to sort
29:40
of create that apprenticeship model that
29:43
gets exists in the technical tracks
29:46
for a manager might get people more excited.
29:48
You know what I'm saying? Because right now
29:50
it very much seems like I'm expected to
29:53
make this sort of step function zero to
29:55
one change between my current role and a
29:57
manager. And then I'm kind of and
29:59
I know all the bad. stuff that comes with it,
30:01
but I don't have the opportunity to experience the really
30:03
good stuff that comes along with being a manager. And
30:06
I don't even know what it is, what I
30:08
have to do. Like you
30:10
said, you have to learn hard skills to
30:12
progress in your technical, on the technical track.
30:15
I would say you have to learn harder skills to
30:18
progress as a manager. Yeah, I didn't mean one was easy
30:20
and one was hard. No, I know. I know you didn't.
30:24
I mean, they're often called soft skills, but these
30:27
are really difficult things to learn, much more
30:29
difficult, I would argue, than learning a new
30:32
technical skill. And
30:35
yet they often don't
30:37
get defined or taught or
30:40
valued, especially. And that's why nobody
30:42
wants to become a manager because
30:44
it's like, what is the job?
30:48
Yeah. So in some ways, if we were
30:50
to go back to the busier CEO
30:53
who was making the claim that we need to
30:55
redefine the role, I think we're making the argument,
30:57
first, you need to define the role. Yes. Yes.
31:01
And player coach does not count as defining
31:03
the role. Right. So
31:05
step one for organizations who are seeing this
31:07
as a warning sign, because Amy, to respond
31:10
to your question specifically, I do think it's
31:12
like a big blinking red light. Yeah. If
31:15
people are, if the majority of people who are
31:17
responding to that survey are saying, I
31:20
do not see it as like a
31:22
career objective for me to become a
31:24
manager, that means that your pool is
31:26
very small. And if the majority
31:28
of the people who are putting their hats in
31:31
the ring are doing it because of the additional
31:33
money, you're going to be promoting a lot of
31:35
people who shouldn't be managers in
31:37
the first place. Like there's just no way. Who don't want
31:39
the job. Yeah. Right. Who
31:42
don't want the job. So step one is defining the role. And I think
31:44
step two is like giving people a
31:47
way to experience the great parts
31:49
of management, like the exciting part
31:51
of helping. So
31:54
a concrete example of this might be a
31:56
buddy or mentorship program. A buddy
31:58
or mentorship program is a great way to give people a way to experience the work people a
32:00
taste of what it's like to be a manager,
32:02
right? That's sort of like coaching and developing somebody
32:04
else. They're proven to
32:06
be really good for retention, meaning like
32:09
they're great programs for retaining the talent
32:11
that you hire. And
32:13
it gives you a taste of like, you know,
32:15
if I was doing this for four or five
32:17
or six people, would that be a great, would
32:19
I consider that to be a great way to
32:21
spend, you know, a significant chunk of my time? Yeah,
32:25
and in the military, that's called the
32:27
non-commissioned officer, right? Someone who has been
32:29
in your job, is no longer doing
32:32
your job, is like riding along with
32:34
you and teaching you how to
32:36
do the job. I
32:38
think most companies can't afford to hire
32:40
a manager to teach a manager, but
32:42
it would be great if they could.
32:45
I think that's great. And I really appreciate the
32:47
tips, Jason. I think you just gave us our
32:50
tips. Before we close, Kim, I wanna
32:52
go back to when
32:55
you were at Apple and the guy who said,
32:58
this is the work that I wanna do and I wanna
33:00
get paid for this work. I'm curious, was
33:03
there an example that you had in
33:05
your own career, whether at Apple or
33:07
somewhere else, where you saw what it was
33:09
like to be a manager and that inspired you?
33:11
Like, what would have been the inspirational
33:15
either mentor or conversation that you
33:17
were like, oh, okay, this is
33:19
something that is actually really
33:22
interesting for me. When
33:24
I was working in
33:27
Moscow for this diamond company, and I
33:29
had no interest in diamonds, like I wound
33:31
up there in a random way, I
33:33
had a boss who would call me
33:35
first thing in the morning and
33:37
just ask me what was going
33:39
on. And I really enjoyed talking
33:41
to him and I realized
33:44
that his job was to help
33:47
me feel more
33:49
comfortable and free to do my job. And I
33:51
was like, oh, that's kind of fun. So
33:54
that was one moment where I
33:56
sort of, I remember feeling
33:58
like Oh, I
34:00
could have an interesting career doing what
34:03
he's doing. And then there was another
34:05
moment at business school when we were doing
34:08
the case on the
34:10
Tylenol poisoning and the Credo
34:13
challenge. And the
34:15
new CEO of Tylenol in 1976 or
34:17
whatever. J&J? Yeah.
34:20
Oh, J&J, yes, sorry. Spent
34:23
a bunch of time working
34:26
with his team to rewrite the
34:28
Credo. He spent his first five
34:30
months as CEO traveling around the
34:32
world and rewriting the Credo. And
34:36
I remember thinking, that's what CEOs do? I could
34:38
do that with the CEO's fun. So
34:45
those are my two stories about
34:47
this time. He credited the company's
34:50
ability to respond so well
34:52
to the poisoning with
34:54
having spent those five months rewriting
34:57
the Credo because people really knew
34:59
what was important. There's
35:01
something so powerful about getting
35:05
people, the feeling of
35:07
getting people aligned, it feels so expensive
35:09
that the process of painting a picture
35:11
of what the future could look like.
35:15
And it can be really frustrating because people
35:17
disagree. They naturally disagree about what
35:19
the future could or should look like. And
35:22
then I think it was
35:24
very wise, it might also have
35:26
been self-congratulatory, but also
35:28
very wise to credit the
35:31
team's ability to follow the
35:33
Credo that they had just
35:35
themselves created as
35:39
giving that the credit for successfully navigating that
35:41
challenge. Because I do think that is one
35:44
of the moments where it
35:46
actually feels good to be in leadership. There's
35:49
this powerful, almost
35:51
like feeling, I'm trying to think, how do
35:53
I want to say this? You said earlier,
35:55
Kim, that you can't tell people what to do.
35:58
So you can't tell people, that
36:00
are important and you must think that these things
36:02
are important. You must follow these like and
36:05
so instead he drew out
36:07
like this process through this process drew out
36:09
the things that were really important and then
36:12
when crisis came people were able to follow
36:15
the right thing yeah to do to do the
36:17
right thing and that's a
36:19
rarefied experience you know very very rarely
36:21
do people get get to experience something
36:23
like that and I do think that
36:26
that that is
36:28
having those examples is something
36:31
that maybe the world needs more of maybe
36:34
there's a book of inspiring leadership stories
36:36
those moments of exaltation yeah and
36:38
sometimes it doesn't have to be even like
36:41
I remember there was one point where a woman
36:44
on my team had gone I think
36:47
she was ill so she was out for
36:49
several months and then she came back and
36:52
we were having a big debate about something
36:54
a big you know discussion and there was
36:56
a lot of disagreement but it was a
36:59
fun conversation and I remember at
37:01
the end of the conversation she was like oh I
37:03
miss this I'm so glad to be back and
37:06
that was like that that was fuel for
37:08
a year you know it's it's
37:10
just that feeling of oh I like working
37:13
with you and we're getting
37:15
somewhere that is
37:17
that is like that's really
37:19
joyful or when you work with someone
37:22
who who all
37:24
of a sudden is doing something
37:26
that they always wanted to do but thought they
37:28
never could do like
37:30
that is that is incredibly
37:33
satisfying for me like that's
37:36
the most satisfying thing that can happen
37:38
in a career and that's why I
37:40
liked being a manager Kim that
37:42
reminds me of a story in my career
37:45
when I was was managing someone and they
37:47
were new to the role and it come
37:49
from a more corporate background and so and
37:51
they were responsible for design and I kept
37:53
encouraging them to. you know you can be
37:55
more creative and showing them different examples but
37:57
I would keep getting back these more sort
37:59
of. Corporate. Stayed designs
38:01
and I guess trying to paint a picture of
38:03
what was possible on it is sort of. We're
38:06
going back and forth and then Kenneth a few
38:08
weeks. In all the sudden all this creativity came
38:10
out. And. It was. It was
38:12
that sense of like that unlocking. And yeah,
38:14
and sometimes you don't know what's that thing
38:16
that's gonna help unlock that other person and
38:18
some of it's patients. and some of it's
38:20
painting a picture in. some of it's just.
38:23
Demo. The sudden realizing that something
38:25
new was possible so a share with
38:28
you. I hadn't thought
38:30
of that in a while. Nice things just
38:32
to Jason's point. like it doesn't have to
38:34
be this huge stories of like we overcame.
38:36
You know, the Johnson Johnson Crisis Like that
38:38
those can be really powerful. but even in
38:41
some of our day to day moments, that
38:43
it does give you some of that energy
38:45
to keep to keep moving forward. And Sacks
38:47
maybe our listeners can write us what's that
38:49
moment of July and being a manager and
38:51
maybe will read some of these out. These
38:53
can be some of our favorite things I
38:55
would love to. Oh, I love that idea.
38:58
Yeah, I think we. Want to give up
39:00
being a manager? Little better Pr. And
39:02
yes and and around Aziz said
39:04
defining it. Yes, Six
39:06
are eight, so just to revisit
39:08
quickly are radical to enter checklist.
39:10
These are kids to start putting
39:12
radical candor into practice. Kept
39:15
number one. define the role, Teach
39:17
people what the job of management
39:19
is, what do they do and
39:21
provide the training and resources to
39:23
help them learn how to do
39:26
it better. Tip:
39:28
Number to create a buddy
39:30
or mentorship program so people
39:32
interested in people management's inexperience.
39:34
Some of the positive aspects
39:36
of building relationships, guiding teams
39:38
to achieve results, and helping
39:40
people take steps. In the
39:42
direction of their dreams. To
39:45
number three if you want to explore
39:47
this topic further. Listen to
39:49
Season Five episode twenty five, should
39:51
I be a manager and season
39:53
Six episode two Managers are burned
39:56
out to. To find out
39:58
more. To further tip. you
40:00
can go check out our YouTube channel where you
40:02
can not only listen to this podcast, but
40:04
also watch dozens of other Radical
40:07
Candor videos. Show
40:09
notes for this episode
40:11
are at radicalcandor.com/podcast, praise
40:14
in public and private, and of course,
40:17
you can go ahead and criticize in private.
40:19
So if you like what you hear, go
40:21
ahead, rate and review us wherever you listen
40:23
to your podcast. And if you have criticism
40:25
for us, or your
40:27
stories of manager joy, email
40:29
it to podcast
40:32
podcasts at radical
40:35
candor.com. Bye for
40:37
now. Bye everyone. Take care. The
40:39
Radical Candor podcast is based on
40:42
the book Radical Candor be a
40:44
kick-ass boss without losing your humanity
40:46
by Ken Scott. Episodes are
40:48
written and produced by Brandi Neal
40:50
with script editing by me, Amy
40:52
Sandler. The show features Radical Candor
40:54
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40:56
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40:59
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41:01
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41:03
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