0:06

Welcome to the Radical Imagination Podcast

0:08

, where we dive into the stories and solutions

0:10

that are fueling change . I'm your host

0:12

, angela Glover Blackwell . For

0:15

some , the outdoors are viewed as places

0:17

of comfort , relaxation, and safety

0:19

. The reality , however , is that

0:21

these spaces have not been welcoming to

0:23

all .

0:24

There is an African-American man . I am in Central

0:27

Park . He is recording me , threatening

0:29

myself and my dog .

0:32

Racism and discrimination have made outdoor

0:35

spaces like public pools and

0:37

national parks off limits or

0:39

unenjoyable for many people of color . In

0:43

today's episode , we dig into what a

0:45

truly welcoming and equitable outdoors

0:48

looks like . We'll hear from two

0:50

black women who were doing the work to break

0:52

down barriers and increase representation

0:54

for communities of color in the outdoors

0:56

, so that these spaces become

0:58

safe and inclusive for all . We

1:01

are first joined by Rue Mapp , founder

1:04

and CEO of Outdoor Afro

1:06

, a non-profit organization that works

1:08

to encourage black people to connect

1:10

with nature through outdoor activities . Rue

1:13

, welcome to Radical Imagination .

1:16

Oh , thank you so much for having me .

1:19

You were doing amazing things , encouraging

1:21

Black activism around the outdoors

1:23

. I am curious about

1:26

your personal journey . What led you

1:28

to focus on the black community and

1:30

the outdoors ?

1:31

Yeah , that is a great question because

1:33

there were so many elements . It's like

1:35

a tapestry of experience

1:37

and family history that brought me into

1:39

this moment . I was raised by

1:42

parents from the South my dad

1:44

from Texas , my mom from Louisiana

1:46

–and they were a part of that Great

1:49

Migration from the South to

1:51

northern cities , western cities

1:53

, eastern cities and my

1:55

family landed in Oakland , California . What

1:58

my family brought with them was their

2:00

love for the

2:02

outdoors , so much so that

2:05

they established a family ranch about

2:07

100 miles north of Oakland . And

2:10

that was a platform

2:12

for welcoming , for exploration

2:15

, and it was also a site

2:17

of the most profound hospitality

2:19

. Then I built on those experiences

2:22

as a Girl Scout and later as an Outward

2:24

Bound student and then

2:26

as a young mother . It was an affordable

2:28

and easy way to experience vacation

2:31

by camping or hiking or family

2:33

bike rides . But as I continued

2:35

to learn so much

2:37

about myself , others and the

2:40

environment . I didn't see

2:42

representation of

2:44

people who looked like me in

2:46

spaces , especially as I got further

2:48

away from the city . I

2:51

also didn't see a

2:53

visual representation of

2:56

Black people in the outdoors

2:58

, represented as strong

3:00

, beautiful and free . Having

3:04

a mentor who asked me a pivotal

3:06

question back in 2009 , what

3:08

would you do if time and money wasn't an

3:10

issue , I said I'd probably start a website

3:13

to help reconnect Black people to the outdoors

3:15

. In two weeks after

3:17

that conversation , I whimsically

3:20

took a Google

3:22

template , called it Outdoor Afro

3:24

, and we were off

3:27

since then and started just

3:29

telling the stories of my family and hearing

3:31

the stories of so many others . And

3:33

Outdoor Afro , as you know , now has

3:36

grown into a national not-for-profit organization

3:38

that touches the lives of

3:40

thousands in person and millions more online

3:43

.

3:43

You know , it is so interesting that there is a

3:46

conversation about what

3:48

I guess one could call a nature gap when

3:50

it comes to Black communities in the outdoors

3:52

. Historically , whether thinking

3:54

about our African roots or connections

3:56

to the American South , Black people

3:58

have had a long and deep relationship

4:00

with the land . So how is it today

4:03

that Black people in this country face a

4:05

nature gap ?

4:06

It's such an interesting conversation to

4:08

have because I believe that there

4:11

is a prevailing narrative out there about

4:13

what Black people don't do or what Black

4:15

people don't have access to , and

4:17

I think it's important to do two things

4:20

. One , remember our history

4:22

. as you pointed out , In a not-so-distant

4:25

past , Black people were the owners

4:27

and operators of lodges and

4:29

resorts . during the darkest times

4:31

of American life for

4:33

Black people , We were in

4:36

places like Oak , Bluffs

4:37

and Martha's Vineyard – and in fact still

4:40

are – . Lincoln Hills , Lake

4:42

, Ivanhoe, and so many more places

4:44

of purpose to be in the outdoors

4:46

. And , of course , when integration

4:49

happened , a lot of those places

4:51

faded away .

4:58

I want to go back to when you were

5:00

talking about how the separation

5:03

developed . You talked

5:05

about , historically , the fact that black

5:07

people owned a lot of resorts . I grew

5:09

up in St . Louis . , Missouri segregated St

5:11

Louis Missouri in the 1950s

5:13

and 60s , and I remember my family

5:15

going to a place perhaps it was

5:17

in the Ozarks where the Black people from

5:19

St Louis went to be able to be out

5:21

in their nature you talked about

5:23

, and then desegregation happened

5:26

. Is the inference there

5:28

that Black people stopped supporting

5:30

the Black resorts

5:32

that they had gone to during

5:34

segregation , or was there another implication

5:36

you were bringing forth ?

5:38

Yeah , it's hard to say . I mean , I think that

5:41

there was just a scattering , a decentralization

5:44

of resources and attention . It's

5:46

something that I'm continuing to inquire about

5:49

. I'm not at all suggesting that segregation

5:51

was the thing for us as Black people

5:54

. It was fraught with lots of other challenges

5:56

, but I think that there

5:58

was some kind of momentum and

6:00

attention lost . I think the stories

6:02

and the histories of those places were forgotten

6:05

and , as I entered

6:07

the environmental and outdoor

6:10

space there became

6:12

this narrative that had taken root

6:14

that we just didn't do it . And

6:17

I knew my family's history

6:19

and I knew the stories , like yours and

6:21

of so many others , and so Outdoor

6:24

Afro has deliberately decided

6:27

to stand on the shoulders of those

6:29

stories , of an empowered story

6:31

, something that we can build on and

6:33

talk about from an asset-based

6:35

perspective . One of the things that we

6:37

do with Outdoor Afro , when we

6:39

get people into outdoor experiences , we

6:42

tap into the local Black history and often

6:44

the Black history that exists in a lot of natural

6:47

places , of belonging , of

6:49

being in those places . That

6:51

helps to create that connection

6:53

or reconnection .

6:56

Outdoor Afro states that its mission

6:58

is to connect Black people to their lands

7:00

, to nature , to wildlife . Can

7:02

you share examples of some outdoor activities

7:05

and programs the organization promotes to

7:07

do this ?

7:09

Yes , so I started a

7:11

group of Outdoor Afro

7:13

volunteers back in 2012

7:16

. We weren't even an organization then . It was all

7:18

very much a passion project and a startup

7:20

and I was personally leading people

7:22

into outdoor experiences . I had

7:24

tapped into what I

7:26

learned growing up in my family

7:28

and trained those

7:31

volunteers to go out in their communities

7:33

, in their towns and hamlets and to get

7:35

people to hike , to

7:37

go biking , to go bird watching

7:40

, to go kayaking . There's

7:42

so many resources right in our cities

7:44

, through our city parks that you don't have

7:46

to go far to enjoy . And

7:48

so that group has grown . We

7:51

train a new class every

7:53

year and this year's class

7:55

has over 100 men

7:57

and women who are now

7:59

touching the lives of 60,000

8:02

people to do all kinds

8:04

of activities . And even capstone

8:07

activities in that group that include

8:10

pilgrimaging to Tanzania

8:13

to climb Mount Kilimanjaro or

8:15

walking along the Appalachian

8:17

Trail in Harriet Tubman's footsteps

8:20

. And so we have just everyday people

8:22

who become leaders , who are

8:24

peer volunteer leaders

8:27

that help folks get outside . And then , secondly

8:29

, in response to the profound

8:32

rate of drowning among Black children

8:34

, who drown at seven

8:37

times that of their white peers ages five

8:39

through 17 . And we can trace

8:41

that back to the Jim Crow

8:43

experience of segregated

8:46

and just the lack of available pools

8:48

for Black children for an extended

8:50

time , and we

8:53

are helping teach black

8:55

children in our sphere of influence

8:58

how to swim .

8:59

I've heard about that program . I think you call it Making

9:02

Waves . Is that right ?

9:03

Yes , yes , And the way that it works

9:05

is we receive funding

9:08

through generous donations

9:10

from individuals and from our partners

9:12

, and people can reach

9:15

out to us with

9:17

the swim lessons of their

9:19

choosing , because people live in different places

9:21

, they have different options from place

9:23

to place , they also have different needs . And

9:25

also it's not just for children . it's

9:27

children and their caregivers , because we're

9:29

finding that the gap of knowledge

9:32

around swimming can sometimes

9:34

span three generations . So

9:37

you find your swim lesson and you go

9:39

to our website and we will

9:41

give you what's called a swimmership and

9:44

we will pay the provider

9:46

directly .

9:48

This is so exciting . I'm particularly

9:51

drawn to the way that you're consciously

9:53

thinking about families and caregivers

9:55

and not just pulling children out , but

9:57

making sure that the whole family, and

10:00

it sounds like it ripples to the community

10:02

. This is really community building

10:04

and probably community healing

10:06

. Absolutely Tell us , was that

10:08

something that you were conscious of when developing

10:10

the program ?

10:12

It's been a 14-year journey , starting

10:14

in 2009 , of course , with the blog , But

10:16

I have been so plugged

10:18

into the community and have been very

10:21

much a student of what

10:23

the community wants of Outdoor fro

10:25

, And I'll never forget when Ferguson

10:28

blew up . "If

10:32

you are on the Quick Trip lot , you are

10:34

unlawfully assembled and

10:36

you will be subject to arrest .

10:39

Please leave the Quick Trip

10:41

lot .

10:43

Our headquarters is in Oakland , and Oakland

10:46

was bracing for similar

10:48

violence in the streets . There

10:50

was helicopters overhead and people nailing

10:52

up their storefronts with plywood

10:54

. And I'm walking

10:56

to my car after work and I'm

10:59

like mid-40s at that time

11:01

Three kids at home waiting on

11:03

dinner . I knew I was not going to

11:05

be taking to the streets that

11:07

night , But I asked what

11:10

is it that I need to do

11:12

as a Black woman leading

11:15

a Black focused organization oriented

11:18

around people being and feeling

11:20

free in the outdoors ? And

11:23

the answer came to me just as

11:25

plain . It was like you do nature

11:27

, Rue , that is your lane . And

11:31

that weekend got

11:33

together about 30 people from

11:35

various partnerships and from

11:37

the community and we went to

11:40

the Oakland Hills , where the Redwoods

11:42

have always been a place of peace

11:44

and refuge for me throughout

11:47

my life , and we did our first

11:49

healing hike . And

11:51

I tell you , when we were

11:53

on that trail , there was no helicopters

11:56

overhead , there were no police in riot gear

11:58

and that forest

12:01

could just simply absorb

12:03

everything that was going on

12:05

with us . And we weren't all the same

12:07

age , of the same thought . You

12:09

know we're all very diverse in our viewpoints

12:11

about what was happening , but we all felt

12:14

the weight , and that weight

12:16

was falling off as we went down into that

12:18

valley , in that forest

12:20

, that Redwood forest , and it just occurred

12:22

to me that we were doing what black

12:25

people have always known we could do , and

12:27

that is to lay down our burdens down

12:29

by the riverside .

12:37

Outdoor Afro Inc . A for-profit

12:40

enterprise , was established to help

12:42

combat the design barriers in

12:44

outdoor gear and equipment . What

12:46

inspired you to translate this work into

12:49

a profit-making enterprise , and

12:51

have you been surprised that your expertise

12:53

and knowledge have translated so well

12:55

into business ?

12:57

I have been an entrepreneur all

12:59

my life and I've also made clothes

13:01

all of my life . Like my

13:04

mom was a seamstress , and so I

13:06

was at the foot of her sewing

13:08

machine and learning

13:10

about how to pick out fabrics

13:12

and patterns and studying those

13:14

patterns . And then I started my first business

13:17

when I was 18 years old and

13:20

began designing clothes with

13:22

a collective of young designers

13:24

in San Francisco , And it

13:26

was during that time I had a boyfriend who

13:28

was a snowboarder and I

13:30

made him snowboarding pants , informed

13:33

by some of the design barriers

13:35

that he found that were problematic

13:38

for his experience . And

13:40

so , with starting Outdoor Afro , I

13:42

was partnered with so many

13:44

outdoor brands , from shoe

13:47

brands , jackets and all

13:49

kinds of gear , and I would be given

13:51

gear and I

13:53

felt like I was wearing like very

13:55

expensive clothes that

13:57

made me just look like a dumpster

14:00

fire . I

14:05

was like who invented these zip-off

14:07

pants for hiking ? There

14:10

was just so many quirky things about

14:12

outdoor gear that

14:14

just didn't translate into how

14:17

I wanted to represent myself

14:19

and I felt like I really wanted

14:21

to have

14:24

a design solution so

14:26

that you could have

14:29

the performance you need

14:31

for your outdoor activities but you didn't

14:33

have to leave your sense of style

14:35

and swagger , quite

14:37

frankly , at the door . And so

14:39

I had been partnered with REI in

14:41

some form or fashion , really from the very

14:43

beginning of Outdoor Afro , before we were

14:45

even in organization , and

14:48

I had the support of our board

14:50

chair , Beth Pratt , and in

14:52

fact the entire board , to really

14:54

embrace this bigger vision that

14:56

was rooted in a solution for the

14:58

Black community . Because one of

15:00

the things we did learn over the years is that

15:02

gear and equipment was a barrier . It's just

15:04

simply overwhelming for a lot of people . What

15:07

they need to buy and then what's available

15:09

is very expensive and doesn't make a lot of sense

15:11

for their regular lives . So

15:13

I was eventually

15:15

able to come back to

15:17

REI as Outdoor Afro Incorporated

15:20

– a separate for-profit –and and and

15:23

we went into the design

15:25

process together and they were

15:27

able to express

15:29

exactly what I had hoped to achieve

15:32

through design , and

15:34

I really wanted to tap into

15:37

old school , like 90s hip hop

15:39

. If you look at the hero product

15:41

in the collection , which is a hype

15:44

piece height collection that was

15:46

just released last November , you're

15:48

gonna see pants that remind

15:50

you of the parachute pants from

15:53

the 80s . The colors

15:55

are gonna give Salt salt

15:57

Pepa and pepper kind of vibe .

15:59

Extraordinary . I just love the way you've been able

16:01

to bring your whole self to this venture

16:03

. I wonder if you face barriers

16:05

as a Black woman in a space that is often

16:08

prevented . leadership for women of color

16:10

.

16:12

I have to admit like I didn't get the

16:14

most joyful support because

16:16

in the beginning of Outdoor Afro there wasn't any money

16:18

. I had three kids . I

16:20

was divorced so I was raising them

16:22

on my own . then , secondly

16:24

, there really weren't other role

16:27

models in leadership in

16:29

this outdoor space is

16:31

mostly white and male who were

16:34

leading these organizations . And

16:36

so here I am , I look back and I'm

16:38

thinking and it was pretty gutsy of me

16:40

and also a little crazy even to

16:43

walk into those rooms and feel absolutely

16:46

entitled to be there .

16:47

I must say your clarity and confidence

16:50

are absolutely invigorating

16:52

and inspiring . Oh

16:54

, thank you To be able to see

16:57

your work have impact , to

16:59

see the times change in a positive

17:02

direction . It makes me

17:04

curious how do you interact

17:06

with the concept of hope ?

17:09

Hope is all there is and it correlates

17:12

strongly with my faith in God . If

17:14

I look back and I just kind of write

17:17

down on paper all of the adversity

17:19

that I was facing with the three

17:22

young children , one income,

17:24

living in the Bay Area , all

17:26

the hard work it took to go back

17:29

to school at that time , I've

17:31

had so many reasons to just sit down

17:33

and not do

17:36

much of anything but survive

17:38

. But there was something

17:40

on my heart that's

17:42

been given to me that felt powerful

17:45

and precious from the very start

17:47

and also felt bigger than me

17:49

, and

17:55

it's something that I'm able to tap into

17:58

. That allows me

18:00

to , I guess , be unreasonable

18:02

. . Again . It's a faith . Walk right

18:04

. Hope and faith are , in my mind

18:06

, synonymous in that it

18:08

is a vision of something that has

18:11

no evidence , and I think it's important

18:13

for more Black people

18:15

to see and hopefully be

18:17

inspired for what might be possible

18:20

for them .

18:26

Ru e, thank you for speaking with us . It's been such

18:28

a pleasure .

18:29

Oh , Angela , it's really been a pleasure . I've

18:32

enjoyed this conversation .

18:38

Rue Mapp is the Founder and CEO of

18:40

Outdoor Afro . Next

18:45

up on Radical Imagination , we continue the

18:47

conversation about equity in the outdoors

18:50

and look specifically at how parks

18:52

can be more accessible for marginalized

18:54

communities . We're

19:16

now joined by Ronda Chapman , Equity

19:18

Director of the Trusts for Public Land . Ronda

19:22

, welcome to Radical Imagination . Thank

19:24

you , Angela , It's nice to be here . Let's

19:27

start with the big picture . When you

19:29

think about your own vision for this

19:31

work , what does an equitable outdoors

19:33

actually look like ?

19:35

When I think about my big vision and equitable

19:38

outdoors , it looks like one in

19:40

which everybody is safe and everybody

19:42

has a sense of belonging , and by that

19:45

I mean people

19:47

have a journey from when they walk out their

19:49

front door to a destination

19:51

and along the way they are

19:54

surrounded by aspects of

19:56

nature . So , whether that's a

19:58

tree canopy , whether it's

20:00

birds , there's high quality landscape

20:03

. It's a place where

20:05

I don't feel like I'm being

20:07

policed as I'm walking through it . I

20:10

don't feel that people will have a right

20:12

to question how long I can linger

20:14

, who I can be with , how many people

20:16

I can be with . There

20:18

are a lot of instances in our society

20:21

where , you know , for folks of

20:23

color myself , as a Black American woman

20:25

when I walk out the door

20:27

, I immediately have to

20:29

be very mindful of what my

20:31

surroundings include . I have to keep my

20:33

head on a swivel , And so when I think about

20:35

an equitable outdoors , it's a

20:37

place , again , where I'm safe , but it also

20:40

is an experience where there

20:42

are a lot of amenities . So , for

20:44

example , if I want to go into a park

20:46

, I'm going to have a nice bench to sit

20:48

on . I'm going to have a water fountain

20:51

to drink from . Maybe there'll be some

20:53

programming so that I can connect

20:55

with my community members , my neighbors

20:57

, I can meet new people , I

20:59

can dance if I want to . So it's

21:01

going to be a place that just feels free

21:03

.

21:04

You work at the intersection of parks

21:06

, community and equity . Historically

21:09

, a multitude of public spaces

21:12

weren't conceived for all communities

21:14

. Sadly , racism

21:16

and exclusivity have loomed large

21:18

. What are some specific

21:20

factors that have made outdoor spaces

21:22

inequitable for communities of color

21:25

?

21:26

Well gosh , we can just go back to

21:28

public pools . When

21:30

it was illegal for us

21:32

to enter into a pool house . To

21:35

get into the water , they had designated

21:37

times that were allotted for when

21:39

Black folks and folks of color were even

21:41

able to get into it . There

21:44

are other areas in

21:46

the nation where folks

21:48

also have not been able

21:50

to engage , such as the Shenandoah

21:52

National Park had segregated

21:54

camping sites where people

21:56

of color had to camp in the

21:59

corner of the parkway and not

22:01

be able to enter into the

22:03

main house on the campgrounds

22:05

because they were Black . They actually

22:07

had racially segregated

22:09

campsites , and that's something

22:12

that didn't change until very recently

22:14

, And so current inequities

22:16

in park space and park access

22:18

are definitely the result of

22:21

decades of policy decisions

22:23

. Situations

22:25

like redlining and racially

22:27

restrictive covenants were really common

22:30

throughout the United States , and

22:32

so one of the first steps towards correcting

22:34

those injustices is

22:36

understanding their impact .

22:44

You are the equity director for

22:47

the Trust for Public Land and

22:49

specifically the Trust for Public Land

22:51

has come up with a park score

22:54

index that rates the

22:56

100 most populous cities in the

22:58

US . Can you tell us about

23:00

this tool and what you hope to

23:02

accomplish with this database ?

23:05

So the Trust for Public Land . you know

23:07

it's important to talk about the mission as

23:09

a national nonprofit that creates

23:11

parks and protects land for people

23:13

, that we ensure healthy , livable

23:15

communities for all the generations to come

23:18

, and the park score tool

23:20

is something that really supports that mission

23:22

and I'll share that . for the past 12

23:24

years , we've been interacting

23:26

with park-owning agencies to gather

23:29

data for those 100

23:31

most populous cities and then we

23:33

use that data to rank each

23:35

park equally , and

23:37

we do it over five rating factors

23:39

we look at park access , we

23:42

look at park equity , we look

23:44

at park acreage , park investment

23:46

and we look at the park amenities . And

23:49

what we hope to gain from having

23:51

the park score tool is to have it be

23:53

an effective resource that can generate

23:56

really important discussions among

23:58

decision- makers and park advocates

24:00

. We work with municipal leaders

24:02

, we talk with community members

24:04

, health practitioners , academia

24:07

and even the federal administration And

24:10

as a result of park score , for example

24:12

, just in the first five months of

24:14

2022 , we had 308

24:18

cities use park score

24:20

to evaluate the impact

24:22

of a potential park or

24:24

trail or open space in

24:27

terms of the access to being within

24:29

a 10-minute walk , and then use

24:31

that information to make the case to

24:34

close their park equity gap and

24:36

use that information to inspire

24:38

new investment and inspire new

24:40

policies .

24:45

I know you as an equity advocate

24:47

around water . Clearly

24:49

you're doing it now around parks and

24:51

open space and I imagine

24:54

that over time

24:56

you have seen progress and you have

24:58

seen retrenchment . Are

25:00

you hopeful regarding the future ?

25:03

I am hopeful regarding the future and

25:05

it's because I see

25:07

a lot of

25:09

formations of organizers

25:12

of color who are

25:14

creating spaces for folks

25:17

who look like us to engage , and

25:19

they are giving me hope because their

25:21

constituents are getting younger and

25:23

younger and so it feels

25:25

like the future trajectory is

25:28

quite positive . And when I look at the younger

25:30

generations , or the generations behind me

25:32

, and I watch the way they advocate

25:34

for climate justice , I watch the

25:36

way they advocate for environmental justice

25:38

, I watch the way they advocate for a

25:41

right to camp and play and recreate

25:43

outside , I have all the

25:45

faith in the world that they're going to be okay .

25:54

Ronda , thank you for your work and thank you for

25:56

speaking with us . Thank you

25:58

, Angela . Ronda

26:01

Chapman is the equity director of the

26:03

Trust F Public Land . People

26:12

of color have deep historical and

26:14

ancestral connections to outdoor spaces

26:16

. Today's episode

26:19

reminds me of the way the outdoors

26:21

has and can feed our souls . When

26:24

we connect to those deep seated and

26:26

powerful parts of who we are , when

26:29

we allow ourselves to be led by our mightier

26:31

ambitions , we transform ourselves

26:34

, our communities and

26:36

our future . Radical

26:48

Imagination is a Policy Link podcast

26:51

produced by Futuro Media . The

26:54

Futuro Media team includes Marlon

26:56

Bishop , Andreas Caballero

26:58

, Nour Saudi , stephanie LeBow

27:00

, julia Caruso and

27:02

Andy Bosnick , with

27:04

help from Roxanna Agiri , Fernanda

27:07

Santos , Juan Diego Ramirez

27:09

and Roxanne Scott . The

27:12

Policy Link team includes Glenda

27:14

Johnson , Loren Madden , Ferchil

27:16

Ramos , Vanice Dunn , Perfecta

27:19

Oxholm , Eugene Chan and Fran

27:21

Smith . Our theme music

27:23

was composed by Taka Yusuzawa and

27:25

Alex Suguira . I'm your

27:27

host , Angela Glover Blackwell . Join

27:31

us again next time and in the meantime

27:33

, you can find us online at radicalimagination . us

27:36

. Remember to subscribe

27:39

and share Next

27:49

time .

27:49

on Radical Imagination

27:52

Revolutionary young leadership . Going full

27:54

force into recruiting young , diverse

27:57

candidates for state and local office

28:00

. We believe that is where a

28:02

lot of those things can be changed .

28:04

See you next time on Radical Imagination .