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From PRX. From

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PRX's Radiotopia, this is Radio Diaries. I'm

1:30

Joe Richman. At

1:32

the age of 16, he played with

1:34

the Duke Ellington Orchestra. He

1:40

went on to make landmark recordings with

1:42

Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, and Thelonious Monk.

1:45

He's considered one of the most important drummers

1:47

in history, and he would have turned

1:49

100 years old this week. Today

1:52

on the show, the life and music of

1:54

jazz great Max Roach. And

1:57

so once again, ladies and gentlemen, we take

1:59

our WMCA microphone. falls right down on the royal

2:01

roof, bringing you the new sound, Charlie Parker and

2:03

the All Stars.

2:05

Miles Davis on trumpet, the great Max Roach

2:07

on drums. The

2:10

Drum Also Walses is a new film about

2:12

Max Roach. It's the culmination

2:14

of decades of work by two award-winning

2:16

filmmakers. Sam Pollard is a director, producer

2:18

and editor with tons of films, including

2:20

Eyes on the Prize and many of

2:23

Spike Lee's movies. Ben

2:25

Shapiro is a filmmaker and also a radio

2:27

producer, and listeners to our show

2:29

will recognize Ben's name because you hear it at

2:31

the end of every episode. He's been one

2:33

of our editors here at Radio Diaries for more than two

2:35

decades. I sat down with Sam

2:37

and Ben to talk about their new film. So

2:42

I want to start with you, Sam. Why

2:44

Max Roach? What was it about him

2:47

that had this pull over you for so many years? Well,

2:50

for me, the thing that made Max

2:52

Roach special was the fact

2:54

that he wasn't just, you know,

2:56

a really, really phenomenal drummer, but

2:59

he was a well-rounded musician, a

3:01

composer, and then his

3:03

activism, the fact that he was not

3:05

just playing music to entertain people, but

3:07

also challenged the perspective of what it

3:09

meant to be a musician. In America,

3:11

African-American musician, he was like a Renaissance

3:14

man. Let's go back

3:16

towards the beginning. I want to talk about Bebop and

3:18

Ben, if you can set up, you know, the

3:20

beginnings of Max Roach becoming Max Roach. Yeah,

3:23

Bebop was a musical movement, really

3:25

happened in the 1940s. I

3:27

mean, it's generally thought of as the origin, the

3:29

creation point of what we now think of as

3:32

modern jazz. It was doing things

3:34

that were harmonically much more

3:37

complicated, tempos that were

3:39

incredibly fast, required a virtuosity, a

3:41

musicianship that was unlike anything

3:43

that had been seen before. So

3:46

let's hear a clip from the film. Sam

3:48

and Ben both interviewed Max Roach before he died

3:50

in 2007. And

3:52

here's Max talking about the early days of

3:54

Bebop. We started

3:57

the so-called Bebop movement. We

3:59

had a little cool. coalition of folks that grew up,

4:02

Dizzy and Charlie Parker,

4:04

Bud Powell, Moxie and

4:07

Miles. We

4:09

all kind of clung together. For whatever reasons,

4:11

we related to each other. And we hated

4:13

to sleep. We would work from 9 to

4:16

9 the next morning in

4:19

two different clubs. We

4:25

would then go to Dizzy's house on 7th Avenue and

4:28

sit down and exchange ideas and

4:31

talk about different musicians and

4:33

analyze styles. So

4:37

listeners will probably know a lot of the names. Dizzy

4:39

Gillespie, Charlie Parker. Max

4:42

Roach isn't as well known a name. I wonder if you

4:44

could talk about why he

4:46

isn't as well known. The most obvious reason, of

4:48

course, is just the instrument that he played. You

4:51

know, we asked a question of Max's

4:54

daughter, Maxine Roach, about

4:56

how come her dad wasn't as famous

4:58

as Miles Davis, you know, the great

5:00

trumpet player and composer. And

5:03

she said it. She said it in the interviews because

5:05

people thought of the drummer as somebody who was just

5:07

in the background keeping time. Now,

5:10

Max started to change that by

5:12

the mid-50s. If you

5:14

watch the ways the bands were put together,

5:17

Max's drum was right next to the

5:19

saxophonist and the trumpet player and the

5:21

pianist. So he wasn't in the background anymore. He

5:24

was the leader. So it changed.

5:26

He changed the dynamics of how you

5:28

perceived the drummer. And also,

5:30

I would say, if co-equal in the band in terms

5:32

of the musical interactions in the group, Sonny

5:35

Rollins in the film talks about how

5:37

important it was to him to have this kind

5:39

of musical dialogue with the drummer, with Max in

5:41

particular. When you

5:43

play, somebody's got to answer

5:46

you. And

5:48

when they play, you've got to answer them.

5:50

Vam, you'll answer me. Oh, why? Then I

5:52

can do something else. That's

5:55

why I say, Max is

5:57

heavenly, because he's feeding.

6:00

Me, he's making me think of something to

6:02

play. He's playing something that

6:05

makes me want to play. You

6:08

see what I mean? And here's

6:10

Max Roach talking about playing with Miles

6:12

Davis and Charlie Parker. When

6:15

Miles and I were working with Charlie Parker,

6:17

his first piece would be his warm-up piece.

6:20

It would be the fastest thing we performed for that night.

6:24

And it would just destroy Miles and

6:26

myself. I'd be puffing and blowing. Miles

6:28

would be, you know, just, it would just

6:31

reduce us to nothing. He'd just breeze through it.

6:33

And we would practice all day to get ready

6:35

for this gentleman. I

6:38

had a lot of freedom working with Charlie

6:40

Parker. He would just write one sheet of

6:42

music for Miles. He'd write a trumpet

6:45

part. And he'd look

6:47

over at me and just tell me that I had freedom to

6:49

do what I wanted to do. I

6:51

would find my own way. Bebop

6:59

was music for a new generation. It was

7:02

also a response to African Americans coming back

7:04

from World War II and the beginnings of

7:06

the Civil Rights Movement. Here's

7:08

singer Harry Belafonte, followed by saxophonist

7:10

Sonny Rollins and composer Quincy Jones.

7:13

There was no other kind of music for me but

7:15

that. And night

7:18

after night, Marlon Brando and myself

7:20

and a couple of others would

7:22

sit there and listen to one

7:24

great genius after the other. Bebop

7:30

wasn't just being sweet and

7:33

joyous like Louis

7:35

Armstrong. It came

7:37

by as an outraged expression

7:40

of the time in which we lived and found great synergy

7:43

with young black people. It

7:48

was a new political feeling

7:50

among these guys. You

7:53

know, this is right after the war. And

7:55

Byrd and Max

7:58

and Miles, example. I'm

8:06

just so glad I came up with that

8:08

kind of influence

8:10

because they were

8:12

so progressive and the goal was to

8:14

get jazz resistance so they did not

8:17

just have to entertain. They

8:19

wanted to be an artist just like Szybinski. I'm

8:28

curious about this distinction that Quincy

8:30

Jones makes between jazz

8:32

as entertainment and jazz as art.

8:35

What was the significance of Bebop and

8:37

Max's work in particular in terms of

8:40

that sense of art and music? If

8:43

you look at the big band era which preceded

8:45

that, the big bands in the 1930s were

8:47

mass popular

8:49

entertainment. The

8:53

group that Max was with that we

8:55

talked about the Bebop groups in the

8:57

early 1940s, mid 1940s, they weren't

8:59

trying to get pop record hits. People

9:02

weren't dancing as much so they

9:04

had a different sensibility about who

9:07

they were as musicians and entertainers.

9:10

You're talking about

9:12

what is the mission as an artist at

9:14

this point and I wanted to

9:17

talk about for Max what is his

9:19

mission in his music in terms of political

9:21

activism. Here's a musician

9:23

that's in a period in the 50s

9:25

of turbulent civil rights. Dr. King is

9:28

on the scene, the Montgomery

9:30

bus boycott, the things are

9:32

happening politically and socially and

9:35

he connects. He realizes that

9:37

it wasn't just for him to go out there

9:39

and play every night in a club situation to

9:41

excite people with the music but it was to

9:43

have the music say something and mean something. There

9:46

was a guy who would go into clubs

9:48

and he would give people a little history

9:50

about Marcus Garvey or Paul Robeson or something

9:52

like that. I remember an

9:55

experience where he

9:57

had been playing at the Village Vanguard and

9:59

Lorraine Gorton. who ran the Villa Shandgarth.

10:01

She said to me one night, I

10:03

love Max, man, I love it musically, but Jesus,

10:05

when he comes in here, he starts talking about

10:07

all this social issues and politics, you know, and it

10:09

drives me crazy. I think it's going to make the

10:12

audience not want to stay in the club, something like

10:14

that. Do you think he would consider

10:16

himself a political activist in his music? He

10:18

definitely would. He would consider himself a political activist.

10:22

I think the position of the

10:24

man is driving

10:27

me in a quitting tone.

10:32

So, The Freedom Now Suite was released in 1960. When

10:35

you look back in that moment, what role did

10:37

it play in terms of people even thinking about

10:40

music as a form of protest and activism? That

10:42

music was about saying, here's the thing I want you

10:45

to talk about. I want to talk about oppression,

10:48

racism, you know, and the challenges

10:50

for us as African Americans to

10:52

fight for our freedom. And that's

10:54

what made Freedom Now Suite such

10:56

a revolutionary record. If you

10:59

listen to Drive a Man,

11:01

you know, you listen to all

11:04

the songs and compositions that are performed in there

11:06

by the band and by Abby Lincoln, it is

11:08

stunning. This

11:19

album, We Insist, The Freedom Now Suite,

11:21

was inspired by Max Roach's growing involvement

11:23

in the Civil Rights Movement in the

11:25

U.S., as well as his interest

11:28

in the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa. Here's

11:30

Max Roach again, plus writer Greg Tate

11:33

and South African musician, Abdullah Ibrahim. This

11:37

particular piece, Tears for Johannesburg, was

11:40

to commemorate the

11:42

memory of all those

11:44

young people who were

11:46

killed in Johannesburg during

11:48

military insurrections on

11:50

the students. And

11:54

so that piece was dedicated to them. Even

11:58

before the war, The civil

12:00

rights and black power movements and

12:03

panthers and all those folks made

12:05

this connection between movement for justice

12:07

here, movement for justice in

12:10

Africa. You know, you just kind of

12:12

made a line in the sand, this is

12:14

how my music is going to address

12:16

this worldwide movement for

12:19

justice. It

12:22

resonated with us. Freedom

12:24

now is suitable for our quest.

12:28

Collaboration in Saudi Arabia and in Africa.

12:34

Because there

12:36

was somebody who really

12:39

cared. He

12:46

made us all understand there are no boundaries. There

12:50

are no boundaries in human experience, there are

12:52

no boundaries in music. Because

12:55

it's work is really

12:57

about how you relate

12:59

to another human being. So

13:09

there was this interlink in

13:11

interconnection with experience and then.

13:14

It was also the regime.

13:24

The music was so divisive and

13:27

that's why they banned it. The

13:30

album was barred from being further

13:33

imported into South Africa and

13:35

it reached the national press and

13:37

it became a light hit. It

13:39

almost reached the kind of popularity that

13:42

went into pop records because the time

13:44

wanted it. They

13:46

partied, they said in the future they were going

13:49

to keep an eye out for work by Negro

13:52

artists from America that had the word freedom

13:54

in the title. You

14:00

know, as Zula Ibrahim says in the

14:02

film, you know, when that was heard

14:04

in South Africa, people said that the

14:06

apartheid government said it was too revolutionary

14:08

and they banned that record. That

14:10

shows you the impact of it. One

14:12

thing that surprised me in terms of that is how

14:15

much it's still being performed. When

14:17

you're making a film like this, you're going to start tracking

14:20

what's happening in terms of the subject of the film. And,

14:23

and still today, there are groups around

14:25

the country that are doing regular performances

14:27

of this Freedom Now suite. When

14:30

people perform, it still sounds as

14:32

fresh musically, politically as it did

14:34

in 1960. One

14:37

thing that comes through the film is a

14:39

portrait of a guy who was just

14:42

constantly evolving and pushing his own boundaries

14:45

and kind of always making himself a

14:47

little uncomfortable, especially in the sense of

14:49

like the evolution from bebop

14:52

to some of the more political work

14:55

to like the percussion ensembles later on.

14:57

Yeah. He learned his craft. He learned

14:59

to be one of the greatest drummers of all time,

15:01

but he wasn't satisfied with just being a great

15:04

drummer. He didn't rest on his laurels. Quest

15:06

Love says this in the film, of

15:08

all the iterations of Max Roach's groups

15:10

that he, you know, that he had

15:13

heard, M.Boom was the

15:15

greatest of all time because it was revolutionary.

15:21

Max Roach started the group M.Boom in the

15:23

1970s. There

15:25

were no strings, no horns, no

15:27

singing, just percussion. Here's

15:30

M.Boom member, Warren Smith, along with Max

15:32

Roach. M.Boom came about because

15:34

I had this group of

15:36

percussion instruments in my studio. So

15:40

people like Max Roach and Joe Chambers

15:42

would come up there to practice. We

15:45

were all there and it was Max's idea.

15:48

After he finished rehearsing, we sat down. He said,

15:50

I'm thinking about starting a percussion ensemble.

15:54

I wanted to hear and create

15:56

something different, but would still be

15:58

in the control. of

16:00

what Duke Ellington and Charlie

16:03

Parker and Count Basie visualized,

16:05

but only with percussion instruments.

16:09

At that time, percussion ensembles

16:11

were all strictly, like, snared

16:14

drums and military.

16:17

And Max heard something that

16:20

was more African.

16:26

You know, what is it about this guy who's,

16:29

like, always trying to figure out what is the

16:31

next thing to push? That's

16:33

a certain kind of a personality of an artist

16:36

who is just constantly moving. Here's

16:39

my take. I mean, if you look at

16:41

a lot of musicians, they learn their craft,

16:44

they learn their instrument, they learn a certain

16:46

type of music, and they never go beyond

16:48

that. I mean, here's a great example. And

16:51

I love Thonius Monk. You know, Thonius Monk

16:53

is one of the greatest jazz composers ever.

16:55

But he found his lane, and

16:58

he never really left that lane. I mean,

17:00

you know, he's got a hundred great compositions.

17:02

I mean, from Rythma Nang to Straight No

17:05

Chaser to Ruby My Dear.

17:07

But he stayed in the same lane the whole

17:09

time, you know, really stayed in the same lane.

17:11

You know, his music never evolved. Still

17:13

great music. And Max didn't

17:16

stay in his lane. He was always thinking

17:18

outside the box and just didn't want to

17:20

get pigeonholed. And that's what makes him to

17:22

me one of the greatest musicians of all

17:24

time. There's one thing I

17:26

always come back to when I think about this, is in

17:28

the film, he mentions this idea

17:31

that he arrived at this conception

17:33

of what he did and

17:35

what musical possibility was as ultimately about

17:37

the world of sound. Once

17:40

you give yourself that kind of freedom, then

17:42

anything is possible. There are

17:44

no limits. And

17:46

what makes someone like that? Curiosity.

17:49

This man was curious. This

17:52

is to me one of the most important things you can

17:54

have in life as an artist. The

17:56

level of curiosity where you're looking to try

17:58

different things all the time. from

20:01

PRX.