0:01

The following podcast is a dear media

0:03

production. Welcome

0:09

to Raising Good Humans. I'm Dr. Elisa

0:11

Pressman. I have a really

0:14

special episode for you today. It's

0:17

a conversation with Kelly Corrigan. You

0:20

might know her as a bestselling author or

0:22

from her beautiful podcast, Kelly

0:25

Corrigan Wonders or

0:27

from her TED Talk, which

0:29

I will put in the show notes. This

0:32

latest one on bravery in particular,

0:34

kind of that kitchen table bravery

0:36

that we don't really hear about

0:39

that often, but is so baked

0:42

into what it means to be human is our

0:44

topic. And

0:47

for those of you who are

0:49

in that sandwich generation, caring for

0:52

kids and also parents, I

0:54

think this will really resonate. If

0:57

you enjoy this episode, it really,

0:59

I cannot stress enough.

1:02

Please write a review in Apple.

1:06

Please write a review in Apple

1:08

podcasts. It really

1:10

helps get this podcast out

1:12

to more people. And

1:15

if you give it a five star rating and don't

1:18

have time for a review, that's okay too. And

1:20

as always, if you have something more constructive to

1:22

say, I would love a private

1:25

DM on at Raising Good Humans

1:27

podcast, where you can also send

1:29

in your questions for me

1:31

to answer on my

1:33

sub stack, drelisapressman.substack.com or

1:36

in reels. And of course it wouldn't

1:40

be right to not

1:42

remind you that I do have a

1:44

book, The Five Principles of Parenting, Your

1:46

Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans out

1:49

on both audio, if

1:52

you prefer listening or reading

1:55

or just having it there as a resource

1:57

and getting into it. on

2:00

a need to see basis by

2:03

topic or challenge. It's not

2:05

meant to be read all at once. Have

2:07

a wonderful weekend. It feels like

2:09

it's really summer, so welcome to summer. I

2:12

hope some of you are listening to

2:14

this while getting outside and taking a nice walk.

2:17

This woman called from Ted, who

2:20

I've come to know and love. Her name is Corey

2:22

and she weighs about 98 pounds soaking

2:24

wet. She said, we're planning

2:28

this conference and the theme is

2:30

the brave and the brilliant. I

2:34

can tell already in staff meetings that

2:36

there's going to be plenty of content

2:38

around AI and space

2:40

travel and quantum computing, nuclear

2:43

fusion. I

2:46

just want to make sure that the

2:49

conference doesn't begin and end without somebody

2:51

talking about a different kind

2:53

of bravery like kitchen table bravery. I

2:57

sort of jumped in and said, I could give that

3:00

talk tomorrow. I have been naturally

3:03

cataloging brave

3:06

people for decades.

3:09

It's the thing I'm most impressed by in

3:11

life, is people

3:13

whose stories I come to know one

3:15

way or another, mostly because

3:17

they're good friends, sometimes because I

3:19

was their nanny, or

3:21

their employee, or their daughter-in-law.

3:26

I'm a person that asks a lot of questions, so I'm

3:28

getting, I think, a fuller

3:30

story. I

3:32

think if you internalize stories like that,

3:34

they run a risk of totally freaking

3:36

you out. Like, oh my God,

3:38

that could happen to me. I don't want to be

3:41

in a world where that could happen to me. I wish I didn't know that

3:43

story. I remember this

3:45

woman that we knew growing up,

3:47

died in a golf cart accident.

3:49

What? I thought, I do not

3:51

want to be afraid of golf

3:53

carts. I didn't even have that

3:55

on the list with poisonous snakes

3:57

and tarantulas. Yeah. Of

4:00

course the list is long. Like

4:02

of course the list of dangers

4:05

and risks is insufferably

4:07

long. It's very long for me.

4:09

And so if you're

4:12

a person that doesn't want to accidentally

4:14

start playing a horror movie in your head

4:16

because you've taken in someone else's story in

4:19

great detail, such that you can really

4:21

feel it. You can really imagine what it would

4:23

be like to have that problem

4:25

in your own life. Then you'll keep

4:27

the conversation at a certain level. If

4:31

for whatever reason, your

4:33

eye is drawn to those

4:35

kinds of stories, which mine is, then

4:37

you have a few

4:40

things coming for you. One

4:42

is that you might be a little

4:45

bit more nervous and you might be a little

4:47

bit more facile in your

4:49

heart imagination, but you

4:51

will also be a little more prepared and

4:54

you will live in a

4:56

state of wonder because

4:58

what people do inside their houses

5:00

with the people they love and

5:03

the moments that they're

5:06

responding to and leading people

5:08

through in some cases are

5:11

just unimaginable, actually

5:13

when you get down to it. So

5:16

that's what I had on my

5:18

mind as soon as this, Corey was saying,

5:20

she just wondered about, what

5:23

about the kinds of bravery that nobody

5:25

sees that never makes the cover

5:28

of the New York Times? I love

5:30

the kitchen table bravery. Yeah, and

5:32

so then I really got zeroed in on

5:34

that. And I started to look

5:37

back at old journals to

5:40

remind myself of the details because it's

5:42

always in the detail. I know that

5:44

from writing four books is that all

5:47

the impact is in the details. It's

5:49

conjuring the image. And

5:52

then I started interviewing people to

5:54

friends, but who had, I knew their

5:56

stories, I knew their kids' stories, but

5:58

I wanted like... the long

6:00

version. And what came

6:03

out in that was two

6:05

things. One is that what

6:08

bravery typically looks like in the

6:10

regular world is

6:12

people taking action. It's Odysseus,

6:16

right? It's raining, he's climbing the mountain,

6:19

ripped pecs, ropey veins. And

6:21

that's not at all what it looks like

6:23

in family life. And in family life, you're just sitting there

6:26

absorbing and saying, tell

6:29

me more. What else? Go on. Like, I'm not

6:31

afraid. I can handle this. Right.

6:33

And you're so afraid. I mean,

6:36

like a feature of bravery definitionally

6:38

is that you know how

6:41

dangerous the situation is. You're

6:43

not blind to it and you're

6:45

engaging anyway. And so when,

6:47

you know, somebody starts talking

6:50

and you know

6:52

that you are in unchartered territory and that

6:54

you have a nomad. And to say, tell me more,

6:56

go on. What else? You

7:03

are deliberately surfacing the most horrible things

7:05

that a person doesn't really want to

7:08

tell you, but kind of does. And

7:10

that's really brave just to absorb it and not

7:13

try to fix it. And people talk

7:15

about this all the time about not trying to fix

7:17

things. I mean, it goes back to like, it probably

7:19

goes back before women are from Mars, men are from

7:21

Venus. But that was this big

7:23

idea, right? The fixers and the sitters. But

7:27

what you're doing when you're fixing is you're making

7:29

it go away best you can. And

7:32

what you're doing when you leave, when you

7:34

leave the table, when you leave the house,

7:36

when you leave the relationship, is you're

7:38

making it go away a different way. And

7:42

that clarified for me what I really

7:44

meant by bravery was to

7:47

endure. And then

7:49

what I learned since the TED talk

7:51

when my mom died, which

7:53

was totally unexpected, it was completely

7:55

healthy and 100% herself the day I gave

7:58

that talk. like two

8:00

months later, she is gone. But what

8:02

I learned in that experience, which

8:04

was, I'm just a different person.

8:06

I mean, I'm just a slightly different person than I

8:08

was before that happened. I just know

8:11

things that, I don't even know how to put words on the

8:13

things I know now, but I know things that

8:15

I didn't understand before. And I

8:18

see things a little bit differently. And

8:21

the thing I learned from her is this

8:23

idea, and it's probably a word that you use in

8:25

your work, which is attunement. And

8:28

that is a fascinating concept to

8:30

me. And it's super

8:32

liberating state to be in, because

8:35

you don't, it's like you don't exist. You don't

8:37

have your needs, you don't have your opinions. You

8:40

are utterly in service of. And

8:43

that is very pleasant in a way.

8:45

I mean, it was awful. My

8:48

mom was saying, I'm ready and I don't

8:50

want treatment. And it was

8:53

like, okay, I will

8:55

help you get what you want. And

8:57

I was crying, and the first time she really said

8:59

it in a way that

9:02

was unequivocal. And I

9:04

started crying, she said, I don't want you to cry. And

9:06

I said, well, I might cry a little,

9:09

but it doesn't mean I'm not happy for

9:11

you. I'm happy for you that you

9:13

know what you want, and I'm happy to help you try

9:15

to get it. And I

9:18

might cry a couple of times as this happens.

9:21

And she said, that's good, that's good enough. I

9:23

can't, I can't imagine that, but

9:26

you did it. Yeah, I did

9:28

it because she did it. I

9:30

just followed, I followed. And

9:33

I, Attunement is a very quiet

9:35

state. There's nothing happening inside

9:38

you. You're just scanning

9:40

for inputs. You're

9:42

just reading her forehead and

9:44

her breathing and her pulse. And

9:46

you know, she want a nice chip. Does

9:48

she want Vaseline on her lips? She wants some of

9:51

that lavender stuff on her arms. She

9:53

want her rosary. She want the priest to come

9:55

in. It's a

9:57

very light state.

10:00

very light. You're just a layer of them.

10:03

There's no more to you than

10:05

that. And it's sublime.

10:09

You know, we talk about attunement all the time

10:11

because we're talking about mostly mothers,

10:13

like a mother baby dyad and attunement

10:15

is such a big thing. But I've

10:18

never thought about it in

10:20

the context of the end of life. And

10:23

what a magnificent

10:26

way to just... I mean, when people talk about

10:28

being present, you just are.

10:31

You know, there was a lot

10:33

in those days that reminded me of

10:36

being the mother of young children. Wow. Not

10:38

that she didn't have dementia or anything.

10:41

She's just her full cognition,

10:45

which was powerful, was

10:47

at work. But, you know, just the

10:50

only other experience I ever had of watching

10:52

someone breathe for that long, right?

10:54

Was watching a baby in the night or watching a

10:57

toddler in the night. And, you know,

10:59

they're always telling you about wheezing and these

11:01

little sounds that one thing pointed

11:03

to RSV or some other sort of hospital

11:06

worthy condition. And the

11:08

other was just fine, just normal. And

11:11

you were sort of tuning in to

11:13

try to distinguish between those two kinds

11:15

of breath. And all

11:18

that came back to me in those

11:21

days. It was like, and I

11:23

must say, and it doesn't have to be

11:25

this way, but I felt

11:28

lucky to be a woman in that

11:30

moment, because I felt

11:32

that I had had enough experiences

11:35

caring for the physical body of another

11:37

that made

11:39

me more comfortable in the

11:41

space. There's just so much

11:44

bodily care

11:46

that's involved in becoming

11:49

pregnant, going through labor

11:51

and delivery, breastfeeding, bringing

11:54

a child into adulthood.

11:57

Like there's so much body. involved,

12:00

you know? Yeah. And

12:03

it's boobs and periods and

12:06

zits and it's vomiting and

12:08

diarrhea and looking at like bumps

12:10

and moles and lice and like

12:13

the physicalness, cutting fingernails, working

12:16

with poison ivy or eczema. Like

12:20

there is an element of

12:23

nursing that you

12:25

just pick up by

12:27

virtue of being a parent

12:29

that probably falls disproportionately to

12:31

women. Or maybe

12:33

even I was wondering

12:36

is more evolutionarily

12:38

suited to women or

12:42

comfortable for women in the

12:44

kind of hunter-gatherer Yeah. dynamic.

12:47

But I just felt grateful

12:49

that, you know, I could be

12:52

that, I could see her naked body,

12:54

I could see them swipe away things. I

12:58

could, you know, I could touch her. I

13:00

didn't mind touching her. I wasn't

13:03

afraid to touch her. And that's

13:05

not always true because they don't

13:07

look right. They don't look normal. And

13:11

I don't know, it was just kind of,

13:13

I would say it's singular, but it wasn't.

13:15

It was like a double of

13:17

the beginning with my kids, you know,

13:20

it was like a double. And

13:22

now a quick break. So I can tell you a

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15:00

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don't know, like the pleasures in life and

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15:57

See what I did there? often

16:00

touch her mother? No, and that's

16:03

so funny that you asked that. I haven't thought about it

16:05

until this second. And maybe the

16:07

reason why I could touch her so much is because I was

16:09

allowed to. She was not a

16:11

very physically affectionate person. It

16:13

wasn't her way. And

16:16

in fact, like sometimes when we

16:18

came in, like these, it was almost like

16:20

an air kiss. Now this is

16:22

a woman who is very devoted to

16:24

her children. Just not her jam. It

16:26

just, and I'm so physical. I

16:28

mean, I am such a touchy person.

16:31

And so, yeah, that's

16:33

funny. It was like I could finally do

16:35

it. I didn't

16:37

need permission. I wonder if she

16:39

was in her little cloudy consciousness thinking,

16:43

stop touching me. Stop

16:46

putting your fingers in my hair. Just

16:49

leave it. But she, one

16:51

thing that was an interesting clue, as

16:54

in terms of like scanning for direction

16:57

from the other person in any situation, just

17:00

part of this bravery thing that I'm on about, is

17:03

a nurse came in and said,

17:05

Mrs. Corrigan, would you like a Reiki

17:07

massage? And

17:09

in my head, I was like, definitely not.

17:11

She would definitely not like a Reiki massage

17:13

from you at this point. Like she weighs

17:15

a hundred pounds. It hurts to

17:17

go from her side to her back. She's

17:19

not eating or drinking. Like

17:21

this is, and she said, what is it?

17:24

And they said, you know, we're gonna lightly

17:26

massage you. Sometimes touching you, sometimes not touching

17:28

you. We use lavender and

17:30

some other aromatherapies and et cetera.

17:33

And she said, okay. And I was

17:35

like, God damn, if I'm not like learning something

17:37

new in the last like 72 hours

17:39

of my mother's life. And so

17:42

anyway, this woman was young, young. They

17:44

were so young. Everyone's looked so fresh

17:47

faced. And by comparison, this young woman

17:50

was massaging her and

17:52

this lavender smelled so good. And

17:55

then at one point the woman opened up

17:57

her hand and pressed

17:59

it on my mouth. mother's chest

18:01

and then opened up her other

18:03

hand and pressed it on my

18:05

mother's head and like together there

18:07

was something about it that totally

18:09

calmed my mom's expression so

18:11

she went from like somewhat somewhat

18:14

agitated or alert you

18:18

know like maybe waiting to be disturbed

18:21

to like and I really took the

18:23

note I was like okay that works

18:25

for you and like oh

18:27

of course I could I could massage your arms I can I

18:29

can put lotion on your arms I can wave

18:32

this little lavender stick under your nose you

18:34

know and then and then that gave me

18:37

a little courage it was like I'm gonna

18:39

put my earbuds in

18:41

your ears my and

18:43

play some music for you and

18:45

so I played Green Green Grass

18:48

at home and the boxer and Ave

18:51

Maria and you

18:54

know 12 other songs that I could think of

18:56

that I knew she loved just to know that

18:58

she loved certain songs like I was just thinking

19:00

these are things that sometimes you

19:02

don't even know until you

19:05

need to know or you weren't

19:07

really paying attention and you were paying attention

19:09

yes and I wrote my brothers and I was like what

19:12

songs to jammy love and then they started piling on I

19:14

was like oh right right good one good one like this

19:16

is good this is great I don't

19:18

know if it was great for her but it was great for

19:20

me and she's just had her eyes closed and

19:23

they were in her ears and she wouldn't have been able

19:25

to take them out at this point and

19:27

so I was really watching for like

19:30

working and when the boxer came I was the only

19:32

one and just barely

19:34

in her you know semi-conscious stage

19:37

she said and

19:40

it was like she's

19:42

here she's here she

19:45

heard it she liked it and it's

19:47

just I know and that's the

19:49

reward I mean to in terms

19:51

of the TED talk the

19:53

final piece that I almost kind of

19:56

blew or didn't see here and Cori

19:59

and I neither of us had our eye on this until

20:01

we kind of woke up to

20:03

it, which is it was somewhat

20:06

of a devastating talk

20:08

at times. And then

20:11

it was like, wait, we have to discover

20:13

what is the reward for this. What

20:17

do you get? And I completely believe

20:19

in it. I mean, it's my religion.

20:21

And so it was just

20:24

a matter of articulating it. But the

20:26

religious feeling I had was what you

20:28

get as a full human experience. All

20:32

the feelings at maximum dosage. And

20:35

that helped me like saying that out loud.

20:37

I mean, imagine that I'm working on this

20:39

thing in March and April. And

20:41

then on May 15th, my

20:44

mom goes into the hospital, and she's not

20:46

going to come out. And I'm thinking, this

20:49

is part of your full human experience. These

20:52

feelings, it's part of your full human experience.

20:54

And that's what you're here for. That's what

20:56

you want to just take it, just take

20:58

the whole of it. And it will inform

21:01

every other feeling. Like feelings

21:03

are so fascinating because the

21:06

downside allows the upside. So the

21:08

slingshot thing is so huge where

21:10

if you let yourself

21:12

really suffer the

21:15

despair, there's some huge thing

21:17

coming for you that's related

21:20

to that. Because it's the

21:22

distance between the two points that

21:24

establishes the emotional richness.

21:28

And so you get paid off

21:31

in the end because you've

21:33

created this capacity for a

21:36

more extreme experience

21:38

at times. Were you

21:40

raised to be able to feel

21:43

all the feels? Not that we

21:45

hope that you have that rich

21:47

of an experience in youth, but

21:49

hopefully over time and age, these

21:51

things happen and you've gotten enough

21:53

practice. It wasn't modeled

21:55

for me feeling all the feels. Stoicism

21:58

was more the model. with my mom.

22:00

And my dad was really a joyful

22:03

person. I mean, he was just really

22:05

born on a sunny day kind of

22:07

disposition. But what I did

22:10

get was I was accepted as I was. I've

22:14

only recently seen this so

22:16

clearly, but she really didn't

22:18

try to change me that much. Like the only

22:20

thing that she was kind

22:23

of forever on about or bangs, like

22:26

she really thought people should not have bangs. This

22:28

they just get in your eyes and your eyes

22:30

are the most important part of your face. And

22:33

oh, you're so pretty. Why would

22:35

you cover yourself up like that?

22:37

And that was really the only

22:39

thing I can think of. And

22:41

you know, she's a Republican. I'm

22:43

a Democrat. I'm pro choice. She's

22:45

pro life. I spend

22:48

money on food. She does not.

22:50

It's like Cheez-Its and peanut

22:53

butter, cheddar crackers and

22:55

off brand Cheerios and

22:57

jug wine over

23:02

ice. And we lived in Northern California

23:04

where you just instantly

23:06

realized that you've become a complete snob

23:09

about ingredients and organic

23:12

this and straight from

23:14

the grapes of Napa that and

23:17

she just didn't. And I was a

23:20

traveler. She's not a traveler. I really

23:22

spent like all my disposable income when

23:25

I was young on these trips. And

23:27

I would say the most ridiculous things

23:29

to her like, I

23:32

have to go mom. I have to.

23:34

Like I'm not going to live my

23:36

whole life and not go to Nepal.

23:38

What kind of person? And she was

23:40

like, well, you must think I'm crazy.

23:43

Because she didn't go to. I don't feel any need

23:45

to go to Nepal. And

23:48

yeah, and she's private. You know, she would never,

23:50

ever, ever do this. What we're doing right now

23:52

ever in a million years. And

23:55

but where we met, where

23:57

we were perfectly aligned in the

24:01

partially of her doing is that we

24:05

both took motherhood seriously. We played

24:07

our cards differently, but

24:09

we come to it with like

24:11

an equal seriousness of

24:13

purpose. And as my

24:16

kids got older, I really found her

24:18

to be an invaluable

24:20

point of view for me because

24:23

she's of a different generation. And I

24:25

wonder, I have real questions about how

24:27

our generation is doing this and whether

24:29

we're making terrible

24:31

mistakes that in the rearview mirror, we're

24:33

going to be like, can you believe?

24:35

I think that we

24:38

are. Yeah, I think not

24:40

even in the rearview mirror. Like

24:42

soon, right? It's like, it's already starting

24:45

to turn where people are saying, wait

24:47

a minute. I just saw

24:49

a headline actually, but I didn't

24:51

read the article. So I have no idea what the

24:54

article said, but I can guess. But it

24:56

basically was like, and I'm

24:58

loathe to say this because I'm not a

25:00

millennial. And so this feels, it sounds like

25:03

I'm pointing at millennials and I'm not one.

25:05

And so therefore, but I mean, I'm in

25:07

this space. So I feel like it's fine,

25:09

but that millennials so desperately

25:11

wanted to do better than their

25:13

parents. And so

25:15

they've put so much intention and

25:18

thought into parenting. And

25:20

so how come there are so many

25:22

assholes around, like little assholes around or

25:24

something like, that

25:27

was the gist. And

25:30

so I love talking to older

25:32

generations about what they're seeing. Totally. Because

25:34

I think it's like at

25:36

some point, we will find our

25:39

spot in the middle of this, where

25:41

you can be attuned, but not all

25:43

the time. Because as you experienced it,

25:45

I was also thinking, we

25:48

are meant to be attuned in

25:50

these relationships with our babies. But

25:53

when researchers looked at that closely,

25:55

the attunement was something like 33% of the time and the

25:57

rest was... You

26:00

know, but not neglect, rupture and repair.

26:02

Exactly. Yeah. And so even

26:05

attunement, which is so precious, you

26:07

couldn't possibly be that present, that

26:10

like, that long. And if you

26:12

are, that would be a massive

26:14

centering around someone such that they

26:16

might actually eventually be like, you

26:19

know, I think it's very occasional. I

26:21

think the circumstances in

26:23

which you need to turn that on

26:25

are very occasional. And it changes,

26:27

like, of course, with a helpless

26:29

infant, that's going to

26:32

require more. Or someone who's leaving

26:35

this world and everywhere in between,

26:37

there's, you know. I mean, one

26:39

of the great advantages of my childhood is that I

26:41

was the third kid

26:44

and final kid, and I was the only

26:46

girl. And I think- Oh,

26:48

that was my dream, by the way. It

26:50

didn't happen. It's such a good setup, I

26:52

can't tell you. And so part

26:54

of it, I felt like unattended

26:57

too. And my mom's favorite line

26:59

for me was like, oh, for God's sake, Kelly,

27:01

who's looking at you. Like,

27:03

if you want to wear leg warmers, wear leg warmers. Or,

27:06

you know, if you want to go

27:08

out with so-and-so, go out with so-and-so, like, you're

27:11

just taking yourself way too seriously. And

27:13

another line she liked was, don't

27:15

flatter yourself. That basically, like,

27:18

nobody's thinking about you. Totally. And

27:21

that is a

27:23

wonderful way to

27:25

see the world. It just creates

27:27

total freedom of movement. Yeah. It's,

27:31

you know, where you get at 50. Yes,

27:34

it is. It's like, I think I'm going

27:36

to cut my own hair. Like, you know,

27:38

I just don't care anymore. But

27:41

to think about just developing

27:44

humans and how self-conscious everyone is to

27:46

keep getting the message instead of a

27:49

message that's like, people are watching, don't

27:51

do that. Yes, yes, yes, of course.

27:53

And she just didn't have that. You

27:56

know, I gave, my

27:58

brothers and I, all three gave, of eulogies for her. And

28:01

I actually put mine through

28:04

my podcast so people can listen to it if they

28:06

want. Oof, that is brave. Yeah,

28:10

I really wanted to say

28:12

some things about her and offer

28:15

her up as a person that

28:17

a modern woman could consider as

28:19

a way

28:21

of being in the world. And,

28:24

you know, as I said in the eulogy, as

28:27

a kid, I hated her free

28:30

thinking nonconformity. I found it

28:32

embarrassing. She wore a turtleneck inside out.

28:34

She didn't like the seams. Wore the

28:36

same pants like for 25 years. She,

28:40

you know, would stop people and ask them like, how much did

28:42

you pay for your car? I'm thinking about buying that. And,

28:46

you know, the list goes on. But

28:48

as I got older, I moved

28:50

to this beautiful town called Piedmont where

28:53

not unlike the town I grew up in, like

28:55

people do things, quote, the right way. And when

28:57

people come by, you put food out and you

28:59

have wine and you put it on ice and

29:02

you know, on a little ice bucket and you have little

29:04

cocktail napkins and whatever. And, you

29:07

know, in our house, if people came by, they went to

29:09

the counter and made their own drink and

29:11

they'd take half a paper towel and

29:14

she'd pour some, she'd put some

29:16

peanuts out just in their little,

29:18

you know, planters jar or

29:21

whatever that is. Exactly. And just

29:23

one less thing to wash and

29:25

as I got older, I thought,

29:28

how wonderful that you are not

29:30

burdening yourself with

29:32

this dog and

29:34

pony show. I mean, as

29:37

I say that, I just wanna flag that

29:40

when I go to someone's house and they have a really

29:42

nice spread, I love it. And I

29:44

so appreciate it. Like I feel like I appreciate

29:46

it more than anyone else in the room. And

29:49

when people cook a dinner, and they

29:51

put out pretty plates and stuff, I

29:53

really just find that so luxurious. Me

29:55

too, cause I don't, I'm not

29:58

the chef. So I'm not that good at it, so I admire it. and

30:01

I delight in it. That said,

30:03

I'm happy for my mom that

30:06

she didn't twist herself into

30:09

some unnatural contortion to

30:12

satisfy the local norms. I just like

30:14

the idea that she was not burdened

30:16

by this. She was not

30:18

burdened. And it is

30:21

a great way to think about, like

30:25

what can I, what burdens

30:27

me that's just unnecessary? Yes,

30:30

and what are you willing

30:32

to be obliged by? Yeah. Because

30:35

sometimes that's important. She had God.

30:38

So that was really her top tick,

30:42

was like that is what I am obliged

30:44

to and everything else is choose your own

30:46

adventure. And if you have a top tick

30:48

like that, that's so enormous, so

30:50

dwarfing of all other things that you

30:52

could put on your list, I

30:56

think for her it was a huge advantage in the world

30:58

because it's like I'm not even playing this game. I'm

31:01

not even trying to be the

31:03

skinniest, prettiest, most well-dressed, most on

31:05

time best cupcakes at the Halloween

31:07

party mom. I don't

31:10

even know what the, I'm in signup for those

31:12

games. I'm playing a totally different game. I'm

31:14

playing go to church every day, don't

31:17

indulge yourself. Every day. Every day.

31:20

Wow. Yeah, it was the total frame of her life. And

31:23

I don't, I so envy it. I

31:25

don't have that at all. And

31:29

she just wanted us to have, all three of us

31:31

to have it so much, like

31:33

a mom wants you to wear a coat in winter. It's

31:35

like, it was the source

31:37

of her comfort and it

31:40

was the anchor point of her

31:42

perspective. Did she have community

31:44

that way too? I mean, was she a

31:46

loner doing this? Yes. Fascinating.

31:48

Yeah, she didn't, she wouldn't have wanted

31:51

to sit with anyone. Wow.

31:53

And my dad would wanna sit in the

31:55

middle of everyone. You know,

31:57

when you say peace be with you and you shake hands

32:00

and stuff, there's this moment. where everybody in the congregation greets

32:02

each other. And she'd just kind of

32:04

wave to people and he'd

32:06

be like, hi, I'm out, Jerry, oh,

32:08

Susie, love your hat, Jane. You know,

32:10

like just making a big moment out

32:12

of it. And she just, she

32:15

was in a very private relationship. And

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35:22

so I think about this a lot, and I

35:25

ask this a lot, but it means something different,

35:27

because I just learned a little bit about your

35:29

mother. I always wonder, when

35:32

I'm trying to figure out whether something matters

35:34

or not with my kids, how

35:37

will they describe me to my

35:41

grandchildren? And I feel like

35:44

you know exactly how to describe

35:46

your mother in

35:48

these ways that are so specific. Like

35:51

I'm, no idea why I'm

35:53

choked up, but it's so

35:55

like knowing someone, not being similar

35:58

to them. not

36:00

necessarily even agreeing with

36:03

so many things. So many. But

36:05

just knowing, knowing

36:08

this person and appreciating the things

36:10

that you got as you because

36:15

of the choices that she made, even

36:17

though, yeah, they're not the

36:20

same choices. I mean, we got, if you go

36:22

up a level to like the

36:24

sort of the meta

36:26

level, she's a terrifically

36:28

confident person. And

36:31

she made me confident. I'm

36:33

sure the comfort in her own

36:35

body of who she is, made

36:38

it so that you didn't see the

36:40

world as like I'm supposed to be

36:42

small and question my existence and like

36:45

my right to walk through the earth

36:47

because that just wasn't what you were

36:49

witnessing. It wasn't. And

36:51

she didn't, you know, the dynamic between

36:53

my parents was kind of

36:56

fantastic actually, because she was so

36:59

sure of their relationship,

37:01

as was he, that

37:04

she did not feel obliged to him.

37:08

So it was like, I'm not, you know, I'm kind

37:10

of done playing tennis, you know? And

37:13

I don't want to go to that, watch that

37:15

lacrosse game. And I'm going to

37:17

take my own car to church because you hang around after

37:19

and you just stay and do your thing. I'm going to

37:21

go, I'm going to go to the grocery store, to the

37:23

Acme. And there

37:26

were just all kinds of small

37:28

moments where it was clear that

37:30

the culture of

37:33

their little relationship was you

37:35

do you. And one

37:37

of her favorite sayings was Chacon Asangou,

37:40

which is French for to each his own. And

37:43

that's also a very helpful

37:46

truism to keep handy. Especially

37:50

if, because you could

37:52

imagine a world where

37:54

you'd feel judged because you weren't

37:56

the same. That's right, that's right,

37:58

that's right. And I

38:00

also think it was, she didn't try

38:03

to pretend that I was doing

38:05

everything exactly the way she would do it. It

38:08

was just totally legal for

38:12

us to be different. It was totally,

38:14

like there wasn't an expect, when you

38:16

walk around saying Chacamos on goo every

38:19

other day to whatever comes up, it's

38:21

gotta, the net net is, of

38:24

course you're different. Of course you don't

38:26

like this ice cream that I like. Of course you don't wanna

38:28

toast your toast the way I toast it. Of

38:30

course you don't want ice in your wine.

38:33

Like whatever, who cares? It's a non-issue. It

38:35

doesn't mean anything. Like so little meant anything,

38:37

if you know what I mean. Like it's

38:39

just had perspective. There's just a

38:41

couple of big things that mean a lot and

38:43

all the rest is just, you

38:46

know, things you do in a day. Yeah. And

38:48

it's, I think, I

38:50

don't know, I really came to admire her, but you know, I

38:53

didn't. I was really mad at

38:55

her when I was young and

38:59

embarrassed and I wanted

39:01

her to hold me and I wanted her to

39:03

say, I love you. And I wanted her to

39:05

say, you're so beautiful and I'm

39:07

gonna take you and get you a dress

39:09

and you know, to like hang

39:11

on every word and whatever. And

39:14

I feel, I have felt for a long time

39:16

because I nannied for a family who had just

39:18

lost their mom in Australia when I was 24.

39:20

It's where the TED talk starts by observing that

39:22

guy in that moment. Jimmy.

39:27

Jim. Jim, I've given him a

39:29

nickname. Yeah, he's definitely not a Jimmy. And

39:32

if my mom had died young and

39:34

I didn't get to know her for

39:36

all these decades, I really would

39:39

have misunderstood her. I really would have

39:41

had an incomplete picture of who

39:43

she is. So I feel

39:45

like specifically grateful that

39:48

I got to ride this thing out with her, like

39:50

dumb things. Like we were cleaning out

39:52

her house and we're gonna put it on the market. The

39:54

house I grew up in 55 years ago, they bought it summer

39:57

of 69. And

39:59

And she did very few things to

40:01

her house. I'm a little bit of a sucker for

40:04

home decor. Sure. Very few

40:06

things to her house. And everything

40:08

she did, the realtor who is

40:10

selling it with us, my

40:12

mother sold her her first house. So

40:15

when she was a young couple and my mom

40:17

took her through the mortgage experience and explained

40:20

to her how to budget for

40:22

this. And this friend,

40:25

her name's Karen, says, you know, your mom treated

40:27

us like family. She protected us from our like

40:29

childish viewpoint about like, oh my God, I love

40:31

those. Cause it has like a bay window. And

40:34

she's like, yeah, but there's also like a highway

40:36

going through your backyard. So we're not going to buy this. And

40:40

so anyway, Karen said, every

40:42

single thing your mother did to this house

40:45

added value to it. She did not do

40:47

one thing that was purely indulgent. I

40:49

literally only do indulgent things when I think

40:51

about house stuff. I'm half and half. Like

40:53

I know that if I add a bathroom,

40:56

I'm going to get it back. And

40:59

I know if I add wallpaper, I'm

41:01

indulging myself. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm a,

41:03

yeah. I'm going to

41:05

think about that one. But so

41:07

like, I'm just glad that she lived long

41:09

enough that I could come to see

41:11

her more fully with the grownup

41:14

eyes that you keep developing day

41:16

after day, just through life experience.

41:18

No, it's such a privilege. How

41:21

do you imagine your kids talking

41:24

to their kids about you? Like how would

41:26

they describe you in your fantasy? It sounds

41:28

like they have a lot more to get

41:30

to know and like time and experiences, but

41:33

today. I

41:36

think that they perceive me to

41:38

be, this is what I think

41:41

they perceive me to be right now. Enterprising,

41:44

like hardworking. And I think

41:46

they admire that I have a creative

41:48

career that's also professional, that's renewer-ative. I

41:52

think that they think I'm good

41:54

at my job, which is so great.

41:56

Like I'm so glad that they saw

41:58

me work. You know, the, job I

42:00

do, writing books and doing podcasts and

42:02

having this PBS show. It's

42:05

so observable. I'm not

42:07

an accountant that goes somewhere so that most people,

42:10

you can't see them do their job. That

42:12

they can see me do mine. And I

42:15

always liked that growing up, that they were two

42:17

girls and that they could have a version.

42:21

And then my cousin Lena lived with us for a minute.

42:23

She's much younger, totally different kind

42:25

of woman. And I was so grateful that they

42:27

got to see Lena. And like, this is another way that a

42:29

woman can be in the world. And

42:31

then we had this babysitter Sophie Chu who we

42:33

all were obsessed with. And Sophie

42:36

Chu was doing it completely differently. She was

42:38

seeing opera. And it was like, here's another way that

42:40

a woman can be in the world. And

42:43

I just hope you have as many examples

42:45

of people that

42:47

have found a way of being that works for them. So

42:49

that you can see that it's not like I'm

42:51

saying this is the answer. I'm just saying there

42:53

is an answer. There are answers. I

42:56

think right now they think that I am, I

42:59

mean, I think they think I'm pretty emotional and

43:02

maybe needy. I think they might think

43:04

I'm a little needy. Like Claire

43:06

said, it's a hug mom, not a hang.

43:11

So like no one is hugging me.

43:13

I am hugging them. Yeah, that's the time. Yeah.

43:16

So they're 21 and 22. Yeah. That's

43:19

just, I think they like our marriage. I

43:21

think our marriage means something to them. I think

43:23

it helps them. I think it's an

43:25

anchor for them. I

43:28

think they think we're funny. I mean, on the

43:30

downside, I think they

43:32

think I am too

43:35

hot that I run hot.

43:38

Yeah. Then maybe I'm a little,

43:41

I can be a little defensive. Like

43:43

literally just before I met you today,

43:45

I had this super weird

43:48

kind of hot interaction with one of them. And I

43:50

was like, I wonder why this is bugging me so

43:52

much. You know, she just called

43:54

out something that I had said that I

43:56

felt was just so unfair. It was like, that's what

43:58

you remember? Like I said, I said like 30

44:00

things and that the one thing

44:03

you remember is that and what does that

44:05

even mean to you? Like why is that

44:07

such a bad thing to say? I didn't

44:09

even, and like don't my intentions count? And

44:11

I just felt so crazy defensive. So

44:13

they might think I'm crazy defensive

44:15

sometimes. I mean, don't you think

44:17

we just, we

44:19

care so much. And so like

44:21

being called out on something that

44:23

feels like that, did we

44:26

do something wrong as a

44:28

mother? Totally. It feels,

44:30

it cuts deeper. Yeah. Even

44:32

if it's a throw away from them. Yes,

44:36

yes. And maybe

44:38

that's a generational trend is

44:41

that we're over invested or

44:43

it could be a female thing. In my house, so

44:45

Edward, my husband was observed

44:47

this whole interaction and he was

44:49

like, just waved it off.

44:51

He's like, don't be ridiculous. She doesn't even know what

44:53

she's talking about that you're fine. That is

44:55

not what happened and you and I both know it. And it's like, who

44:58

cares what happened? It's how she's perceiving

45:01

it. If that's how the story is like

45:03

blocked in on in her little heart, I

45:05

gotta like excavate and get it out and put it

45:07

back in right. You know, and

45:09

you don't have, I mean, that's just a, there's so

45:12

many torturous things about parenthood and

45:14

relationships. And one of them is you don't

45:16

get to pick what they remember or how

45:18

they remember. So you could do like, I'm gonna

45:20

say I did 81% of

45:23

the things more or less right

45:26

enough. And it's

45:28

possible they're gonna remember the 19 over the 81. It's

45:32

possible they're gonna have much stronger, more vivid memories

45:34

of the 19% of the time that

45:37

I fucked it up than the 81% of

45:39

the time that was like

45:41

pretty okay to neutral. You know what,

45:43

I think that's a real luxury. Like

45:46

I hope our kids have

45:48

the luxury of being like, here's all the

45:51

shit you did that was, that

45:53

where you fucked it up. Because it means

45:55

that A, they have

45:57

a relationship where they're close enough to kind

45:59

of get past. that and

46:01

tell you. And B,

46:05

it's like how great that

46:07

they are probably in the areas

46:09

where it feels like they're saying

46:11

like, you know, 19% of the

46:14

time that that was such a, I

46:16

mean, even if they're calling it 75% at

46:19

the time, it's like there's something

46:21

about it that feels really safe and

46:24

cozy. Like, I can just be like,

46:26

you are insane. Right,

46:28

right, right. Yes, I do think

46:31

that that I think about

46:33

my household growing up and I think about my household now,

46:35

it's very similar is that it was kind of

46:37

a free for all. Like, there

46:40

wasn't a lot that you weren't allowed to

46:42

say or respond to authentically. Like, it

46:44

wasn't, it wasn't off limits. It wasn't the kind of thing

46:46

where it was like, you don't dare speak

46:49

this way. No, it was funny. And

46:52

I, one of the things I said to my kids, every

46:54

day growing up is funny always wins. And

46:57

what I meant by it is that when there's

46:59

tension, you know, the first

47:01

person to like make everybody laugh.

47:04

It's just, it's such a gift. Yeah. And

47:06

we were allowed to be funny growing up

47:08

and my brothers are hugely

47:10

funny, huge storytellers, like

47:13

big personalities. And,

47:16

and my girls are funny. And so I like

47:18

keeping humor in the frame,

47:21

I think that's, I think that keeps it a little

47:23

lighter. I mean, I come from

47:25

a Holocaust survivor

47:27

family and the, the

47:29

level of like the funny

47:32

part, this, this stuff that the

47:35

jokes were made about was so

47:37

crazy that I like really have to calibrate

47:39

in the world

47:41

because I feel like we just,

47:44

there's nothing off limits. There's

47:47

nothing off limits if you can make people laugh.

47:49

Yeah. But that's not

47:51

true for everyone. It sure isn't like,

47:54

and not everybody can laugh at themselves. Like that

47:56

was the thing in my family growing up, my

47:58

dad used to say, don't forget the 11. 11th

48:00

commandment thou shalt laugh at thouself. Aw.

48:03

And. Gosh, you really

48:05

have these, I'm so touched by

48:07

this. Like your parents are so,

48:11

it's partly probably because you're a great

48:13

storyteller, but it's so

48:15

clear. Yeah. Who

48:17

they were, who they were as parents.

48:21

You know, it's from writing all those books. I

48:23

mean, I've just written so much about family life

48:26

four times. It's amazing. And

48:28

the books, a lot of it's

48:30

pulled from journals. So I was

48:32

a journaler and to this day I'm a note taker.

48:36

And I think that

48:38

gives you a double chance to like lay

48:40

down the memory. I mean, you'd know

48:42

better than I would how this the neurology

48:44

of that works. But I just, I feel

48:46

like all that journaling

48:48

I did as a kid, the Dear Diary

48:51

stuff, lock things in in the moment. And

48:53

then of course I have them to refer to. And then

48:55

I chewed over them four times

48:58

writing these books. But you noticed them in the

49:00

first place. I did. I did.

49:02

I did. I did. I

49:06

am definitely a scanner. You wonder.

49:09

I wonder. Kelly Corrigan wonders. She

49:11

does. That's

49:13

the podcast and that's why. It's like,

49:15

I mean, that's my favorite state of

49:18

being. Yeah. It's a great state of

49:20

being. Yeah. No, I

49:22

think wonder though today

49:24

it's bravery. But

49:27

I think wonder can save the

49:29

world a little bit and get us out of

49:31

like the, like I am worried. We

49:33

are so interested in

49:35

the internal of ourselves

49:38

and teaching that to our children.

49:41

We're so concerned with

49:43

every moment of what's happening inside.

49:46

And I really want our kids to

49:48

also sometimes just wonder what's happening somewhere

49:50

else. Totally. This

49:54

is also a religious point for me. And

49:58

it's a real Mary Corrigan thing. my

50:00

mom, which is, you know, it just doesn't serve you

50:02

to spend a lot of time thinking about yourself. It

50:04

really doesn't. And like she would say funny things like,

50:07

if you don't like what you see, don't look in

50:09

the mirror. And it was like a

50:12

so hilariously direct, like, right, like you

50:14

just don't have to look, you know,

50:16

you just brush your teeth in the

50:19

morning, take a glance and move along.

50:21

Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna have to

50:23

get a little bit more Mary Corrigan

50:25

in our, you know,

50:27

like, I think there's, there's

50:30

room for all of it, but we've

50:33

moved away from, like,

50:35

there's been a lot of internal wonder and

50:37

wonder, like the wonder that we have about

50:39

our kids. But like, where

50:41

does that leave you as the center

50:44

of someone's wonder at all times? Right.

50:47

Right. I

50:50

actually think that might be a way that

50:52

I'm making a mistake, which is that it's

50:54

too, you know, I don't know if I

50:57

would say that I'm like obsessed with their

50:59

well-being. I mean, we

51:01

have. Pretty fucking close. And

51:03

that's stressful to be someone's

51:05

obsession. Yeah. And specifically for

51:07

your well-being to be

51:10

the obsession of another person. Yeah, then it's

51:12

just a lot of pressure. That's pretty stressful

51:14

because you're like, I'm gonna bring her down.

51:18

If I tell her this, it's gonna bring her

51:20

down. Right. And my mom and I used to

51:22

talk about it as this, like, like a syringe

51:24

full of anxiety where she

51:26

would say, I asked her what she wanted for

51:28

her 75th birthday. I was like, you know, I

51:30

can get my brothers, we can all chip in.

51:33

It'll be great. We can get you something nice.

51:35

And she's like, I know exactly what I want for my 75th

51:37

birthday. And I was like, you do? And

51:40

I thought she would be like, I want a new car, which

51:43

she would never say because she had no

51:45

interest in material things. And she

51:47

said, if there is something that your

51:49

brothers or you need that

51:51

I can do something about, a problem that you're

51:53

having that I can help to fix, I

51:56

would like to know what it is. And I was like, that's what

51:58

you want for your 75th birthday?