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1:35

Hey, lovely listeners, and welcome back

1:37

to Real Crime Profile. I'm Laura Richards,

1:39

criminal behavioral analyst, former New Scotland Yard,

1:41

founder of Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service,

1:44

and host of the podcast Crime Analyst.

1:46

And with me today? Jim

1:48

Clemente, retired FBI profiler, former New York

1:50

City prosecutor, and writer, producer of Criminal

1:52

Minds. And I am

1:55

Lisa Zembetti, casting director of CBS's Criminal Minds

1:57

and board member of Higher Survivors Hollywood. Just

2:00

terrific that he thinks he's trying to

2:02

do everything so that they can proactively

2:05

help locate her and they're just doing

2:07

nothing behind the scenes. Absolutely

2:09

nothing bar focusing their energy on

2:11

him and saying did

2:14

the screen. This

2:16

is just one of the questions that really

2:19

gets me when women are

2:21

in fear and there's a genuine threat

2:23

to us. The movie

2:25

show women screaming but in real

2:28

life we most often times

2:30

don't. No scream

2:32

serves a purpose if

2:34

you feel that that's going to aggravate someone or

2:37

make them angry and they've already said to you what

2:39

they're going to do to you and what we didn't

2:41

know about by the way with the. The

2:44

voice and that what they were told was

2:46

that he would cut them like physically cut

2:48

them and you know hurt the

2:50

other one so. Right

2:52

when you're. Right yeah

2:55

and they were being told that they had

2:57

to comply otherwise something serious would happen

2:59

physical cutting to them serious

3:01

harm and injury therefore most often

3:03

times. A woman doesn't scream

3:06

and she is working up

3:08

in the middle of the night given

3:10

instructions and they are both drugs and

3:13

the sedation also has to

3:15

be taken into account and also when

3:17

the proof of life comes in. It

3:21

really just bothers me a lot but

3:23

the first question that investigators tend to

3:25

ask rape victims that is did you

3:27

scream and if you didn't scream it's

3:29

almost like you can send it to

3:32

it. When water

3:34

cannons work about fight or flight the psychologist

3:36

who did the work and we talked about

3:39

this last time all his work was

3:41

on men and what their reaction is when

3:44

there's a genuine fear

3:46

or threat to them men

3:48

tend to fight. Or they

3:51

run this flight later

3:53

on when those trials were done using women

3:56

what they found was that women tend

3:58

to either freeze or. Code

4:00

horn. And. I just want

4:02

same say. About the fawning because for

4:05

me for one is a very submissive

4:07

word. What I've tended to

4:09

see: his collaboration. Cooperation Trying

4:11

to talk the person.

4:14

Rounds. And down trying

4:16

to build rupaul using communication

4:18

skills to the escalate

4:20

that person and is because

4:23

we as. We grow up in the

4:25

world and moves through it As women we know.

4:27

That we don't hold power and that we

4:30

have to use. All communication skills

4:32

more often than not, the

4:34

escalate someone or something. And

4:36

that's the way we've had to operate. Everything

4:38

I heard about the nice. That we had

4:41

a more detail in the documentary. Was about

4:43

her understanding that this man

4:45

his cellular energy was that

4:48

he was this pen top

4:50

angry man looking for a

4:52

reason. To hurt her. And

4:55

she wanted to make sure she didn't give

4:57

him that reason she wanted to try and

4:59

build rapport with him. And cooperate

5:01

so that she survived it.

5:04

And I think she was so articulate and

5:06

explaining that that have biggest fear was that

5:08

he would kill her but she felt that

5:11

he wanted to break her. He was looking

5:13

for a reason and she fell to on

5:15

a cellular level. Know the three of us

5:17

one ever in a. Room with him. It wasn't

5:19

our lives that would put at risk. so is all

5:21

we can do from. The outside his

5:23

isn't of kin. But. I

5:26

believe her because we know that he

5:28

was a very dangerous individual. Gym and

5:30

I have work cases Matthew Miller

5:32

before and this guy was a

5:35

very dangerous sexual sadist. Predatory store

5:37

couldn't probably would go on to.

5:39

Kill if he hadn't done already,

5:42

and if this is Denise hadn't

5:44

used her incredible communication skills and

5:46

it was it her instincts that

5:49

saves her. And I believe that's

5:51

why he released her because of the way

5:53

that she talked to him and she realized.

5:55

that she couldn't fight him she had

5:57

to cooperate with his demands even know

6:00

as part, every fiber was

6:02

saying scream, run, fight back, hit. And

6:04

it's that torture conflict that she went

6:07

through that invaded her soul and her

6:09

body of having to submit to it

6:11

and having to make out she was

6:14

a willing participant in it when

6:16

she wasn't. And that was

6:18

the thing that really created conflict for

6:21

her. But women don't

6:23

always scream. And when you are raped,

6:26

there aren't always physical injuries because

6:28

you don't always fight back because

6:30

you know you'll be overpowered. And

6:33

the fact that her physical examination

6:35

showed that there had been sexual

6:38

intercourse. And

6:40

the number of officers

6:42

lied about that and said that there were

6:45

no signs of rape. Right. That

6:47

is really heartbreaking to me because

6:50

we know like 90% of

6:53

rapes, women are coerced

6:55

or forced or scared and intimidated.

6:57

And that it's not always

6:59

about physical restraints being used and being punched

7:01

in the face. So

7:04

again, it just challenges a lot

7:06

of those stereotypes. And I'm really

7:08

grateful to Denise, to her, to

7:10

her for explaining it. And

7:13

having to go through all of that again, by telling

7:15

people about what she had to endure.

7:17

But she said it to the FBI. She

7:19

said it to Matt Mustard. She went through

7:21

it in nuanced detail. And we saw her

7:24

on camera in this documentary.

7:26

She went through the detail of it

7:28

and Detective Matt Mustard's question after

7:31

she went through that was, have

7:33

you been in the perpetrator's trunk before? Have

7:35

you been in the trunk of the car

7:37

before? And I literally just wanted to. What

7:39

does that even mean? What is that question?

7:41

What is she was like, yeah, I've been

7:43

in it. What the fuck? I mean, I'm

7:45

sorry. I don't mean to just. It

7:48

was the most bizarre, ignorant question that

7:50

he could have asked. And he's the

7:52

same guy who said, women

7:56

who were sexually assaulted often

7:58

pretend. that it

8:01

happened again so that they

8:03

can relive the thrill of

8:05

it. Where is

8:07

he getting this from? There

8:11

is no look. I worked at

8:13

the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit in

8:15

the National Center for the Analysis of Violent

8:17

Crime. Laura was there with us for a

8:19

while and never

8:21

ever did we hear that,

8:23

teach that, or anything like it.

8:26

That's just, it's bullshit. I

8:28

have never once outside

8:30

of this case heard

8:33

anybody propound such bullshit.

8:35

First of all, there is no thrill of

8:37

it. That's the first thing. Let's get that

8:39

out of the way. There is no thrill of it

8:42

to relive. Secondly, the

8:44

last thing, somebody who's

8:46

been victimized, sexually

8:48

assaulted, raped, would

8:50

ever want to do is go through it

8:53

again. I have never

8:55

ever heard a case, I don't know if

8:57

you have Laura, I've never heard a case

8:59

in my entire career and in the

9:02

13 years since I retired. I've never

9:04

heard a case of a rape victim

9:07

claiming that it happened again for

9:09

any reason at all. Not

9:13

once Jim, not ever in the thousands

9:15

and thousands of cases. The

9:17

fact that he said in our

9:19

experience, as in in law

9:22

enforcement's experience, that's

9:24

what they found. The question is a

9:26

good one, Lisa. Where is he getting

9:28

that stuff from? He's just making things

9:31

up that sound official as if this is

9:33

what we see in law enforcement. He's saying

9:35

it to Denise's mother after

9:37

trying to dig into her past because

9:40

he feels that she's, he's

9:42

already asked Aaron, does it

9:44

come to mind that Denise is behind this? Then

9:47

he's saying this statement, it's

9:49

so sexist and so misogynistic. It

9:51

probably explains a lot because if

9:54

he's mentoring other people and if

9:56

other people are in his, you

9:59

know, purview around him and these are

10:01

the things that he's saying, then

10:04

you can turn all the new recruits

10:06

and all the rookies into this mindset

10:08

that all women want to

10:10

relive it because they want the thrill of it

10:12

again and again, i.e. they're all liars. I

10:16

can tell you when I went to detective training

10:18

school at Hendon, when I trained detectives, I

10:20

used to train them on rape and

10:23

the SOIC courses which are the

10:25

specialist officers for sexual

10:27

offenses. They were called chaperones when

10:29

I first joined the Met. This

10:32

did travel that women made up

10:35

rape, that false allegations were common

10:38

and I found that really bizarre because I

10:40

couldn't find the source of where that came

10:42

from. In fact, we ended up doing some studies

10:44

on false allegations. It was like 1% of

10:48

all cases but yet that

10:50

was promulgating and what it takes

10:52

is someone like detective Mustard saying that

10:54

and then you've got other

10:57

people who might just go along with it who

10:59

don't say, well where's the academic citation? Where does

11:01

that come from? It's

11:03

probably part of the reason why 99% of rapists walk free.

11:08

There is a correlation there

11:10

that when you've got attitudes like

11:12

that because how did

11:14

detective Mustard deal with any other

11:17

rape investigations or allegations if

11:19

that's what his perspective is and

11:21

if it's not really his perspective, then

11:24

he has no business saying that to Denise's

11:26

mother and he's on record saying it and

11:28

of course we know that he got Officer of the Year in

11:30

2016. Not

11:33

just Officer of the Year. After

11:36

completely fucking up

11:38

this case, completely fucking it

11:40

up. That he can move in the

11:43

world thinking that in his position of

11:45

power seeing women that way is

11:47

truly frightening and what kind of messaging

11:49

does it tell offenders that nobody's going

11:54

to believe you if you're a victim,

11:56

right? And how about the other

11:58

victims who were told. oh

12:00

it's just going to be he said she said.

12:02

No reason to actually come in and file

12:05

a report. But also

12:07

Detective Mustard, that officer of the year, he

12:10

defined the outstanding qualities

12:13

and then he was promoted in 2018. So what's the

12:16

message to female officers who

12:18

hear him say that? What's the message to

12:20

male officers who hear him say that? You

12:23

know this sort of stuff is so

12:25

systemic and it's so it's

12:28

like a cancer it spreads and

12:30

the attitude and aptitude of new people coming

12:32

in are really it's really impacted. So you

12:35

know funny enough Misty and I were just

12:38

talking yesterday about it and she was saying

12:40

oh Laura you know it's not just Vallejo

12:42

and I said well I know because I've

12:44

worked nationally and internationally this is systemic it's

12:46

not just oh the Vallejo police department you

12:49

know got this wrong it's

12:51

across the world that these things are said you

12:54

know it's not just this is a one-off and

12:56

that's what bothers me when we think only 1%

12:58

of rapists are convicted in America well it's only

13:00

6% in the UK. Most people

13:04

would say oh that comes down to resources or

13:06

they put up all these other issues as

13:08

to what that comes down to but it

13:11

comes down to attitude and aptitude in the

13:13

first instance that you believe a victim

13:15

and that you investigate and that

13:18

you seize evidence and then that

13:20

evidence is tested. You know that's what

13:22

it comes down to rather than

13:24

offenders being green-lit by someone like

13:26

detective Mustard and it

13:28

really bothers me he gets the

13:30

awards and Misty got nothing she

13:33

got nothing no award no recognition.

13:36

She didn't and you know what the

13:38

success well I'll read to you later

13:41

on what the attorneys the Attorney General's

13:43

office said following the conviction because we've

13:45

still got a lot more to discuss

13:48

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15:56

know when Laura has brought up that did you

15:58

scream literally as you've been talking. that has

16:00

been echoing in my head because

16:02

I'm like, why would you ask

16:04

someone that at all? I mean, if

16:07

you are interviewing someone who's a man

16:09

who's been stabbed, right, he's been mugged,

16:13

did you scream when you were stabbed? I

16:15

mean, you would never ask that. So unless

16:17

you want to be able to corroborate like,

16:19

did neighbors hear you or, you know,

16:21

to corroborate it that way, but

16:24

not asking you personally, how did

16:26

you react when you were violated?

16:28

You know, you don't ask that

16:31

to anybody else. Except

16:34

someone who says that they've been sexually

16:36

assaulted. What is the point of

16:38

that question? What do

16:40

you learn from a yes or

16:42

a no in terms of investigating

16:44

it? You learn nothing. And

16:46

his follow up was, well, why didn't you scream?

16:51

And why didn't you make any, you

16:53

know, did you make any noise? Did

16:55

you provide? If you don't

16:57

make any noise, then it's consensual. And

17:00

how can it ever be right that someone coming

17:02

into your house in the middle of the night

17:04

between three and five a.m. in the morning, tying

17:07

you both up and removing you from your

17:09

home, driving you hundreds of miles away and forcing

17:13

you, I'm not even going to

17:15

say the word sex because it's rape and people keep

17:17

saying, you know, it's sex, but it's rape. So

17:20

if she's in the middle of nowhere, what's

17:22

the point of her screaming? She had already

17:24

said that she knew she was in she

17:26

could smell pine pine trees

17:29

and that there was no one else around

17:32

and she was in fear for her life. So

17:35

why would screaming help her? It's

17:37

just such a ridiculous thing. I agree. He

17:40

didn't believe her. He didn't

17:42

believe her at all. He didn't

17:44

believe Aaron at all. And

17:47

that disbelief led

17:49

him down a path that

17:51

actually risked her life, got

17:53

her raped a second time and

17:56

totally destroyed these two wonderful

17:59

people. lives and their

18:01

reputations. Well, and their

18:03

trust in law enforcement. Most people are

18:05

trusting and law-abiding people, but when something

18:07

like this happens and you go to

18:10

them genuinely because you're at risk or

18:12

your partner's at risk, you expect them

18:14

to do the right thing. So it

18:16

also destroys your trust. And

18:18

that's a horrible, horrible thing to have

18:21

happen. It really is. And not

18:23

just one person, it was multiple. And

18:25

we'll talk about the FBI, Jim. I

18:27

still have a question about David

18:30

Sesma in particular, who also ended

18:32

up being promoted and just the

18:34

conflict of interest there. But David

18:36

Sesma also lied and said there

18:39

were inconsistencies in the story. And

18:42

just the point that when we see Denise being,

18:44

I'm gonna call it interrogated because I didn't

18:46

feel it was being interviewed. Normally you would

18:48

have a sexual offenses trained officer in there,

18:50

but the fact she's got three men in

18:52

there and she's sort of there, would

18:55

have huddled up her head in her hands. And

18:58

she's there retelling every detail,

19:00

in an immense detail, and

19:02

these three men just staring at

19:04

her. Even that, what a

19:06

horrible, horrible situation. What a learning opportunity,

19:09

isn't it, Jim, for law

19:11

enforcement to ensure that they do

19:13

better. That she's gone through all

19:15

of this. And David Sesma's

19:17

response is that there were inconsistencies in

19:20

her story. And Denise's

19:22

attorney just couldn't believe it. He

19:24

said there were no inconsistencies

19:26

at all. And I think probably

19:28

if he didn't hear it and witness it

19:30

for himself, he probably wouldn't believe that

19:32

that was even possible to have happened,

19:34

but it did. Right,

19:37

I mean, it's just

19:39

reinforcing what they've already decided. And

19:41

they are, well, not only are

19:43

they wrong, they're

19:47

unprofessional and they are, in

19:49

my mind, they are committing

19:53

what amounts to a crime against

19:55

these victims, particularly when

19:57

they did not at all

19:59

investigate. her abduction from the

20:01

moment that Erin made that

20:03

call. They did not investigate

20:05

it because they made

20:08

an assessment that it is too outrageous

20:10

to be true. They

20:12

let her abduction continue

20:14

longer than they had to and

20:16

they exposed her to

20:18

the rapes. They could have protected

20:21

her from that. They could have prevented it, unconscionable.

20:25

It is. The lack

20:27

of accountability here I think is just

20:29

the most staggering piece that everybody gets

20:31

promoted, what the male officers do, but

20:34

not Misty. Even that, what's

20:36

the message that it sends out to the good

20:38

officers who are there fighting the fight, doing the

20:40

right thing, and then these

20:42

officers who do terrible things, there's

20:45

no accountability or responsibility taking? It's

20:47

a really bad message, isn't it? I

20:50

think we should mention it as

20:52

much as we are rightfully criticizing

20:54

the Vallejo law enforcement and we're

20:56

raising up Misty. There were other

20:58

officers, I mean, she talks about,

21:00

Misty talks about the officer in

21:02

Palo Alto, who talks about the

21:04

officer in Palo Alto, who never

21:06

forgot Matthew Muller and was very

21:08

frustrated that he couldn't arrest

21:10

him for what he suspected him

21:12

of doing and kept Matthew's picture

21:14

on his bulletin board and

21:17

was right away ready to help Misty.

21:19

I mean, there are such good people

21:21

out there who are staying up all

21:23

night like Misty did and rocking their

21:26

brain on how to close a case

21:28

or find this missing blonde

21:30

victim that she really thinks is out

21:32

there. There are so many good, good

21:34

people who are working so, so hard.

21:36

I mean, I don't want to forget

21:38

them when these people in

21:40

Vallejo get away with what they're doing

21:42

and we'll get more into that. But

21:45

it also takes senior leaders to

21:48

prioritize these cases, right? I

21:50

mean, it's all very well and good and

21:52

officer keeping the picture of Matthew Muller, but what

21:55

are you doing to actually problem solve him?

21:57

Because if you genuinely believe he's the, you

21:59

know, my right. island creeper and so on

22:01

and so forth, you know,

22:03

oftentimes with detectives, you have to go the

22:05

extra nine yards. That's the whole point of

22:07

being a detective, isn't it? You have to

22:09

problem solve intelligence analysts. I was one of

22:11

them. It doesn't land on your lap or

22:14

on your desk with a neat tidy bow on it.

22:16

You have to work for it, right, Jim? I mean,

22:18

I'm saying this because you often do

22:20

come up against resistance, but that's the difference

22:22

between the officers who are good, who follow

22:24

their intuition, their gut instinct,

22:26

and who don't give up. You

22:29

have to be tenacious, and you have to try

22:31

and be one step ahead of the offenders. That's

22:33

why I'm trying to bring in the register

22:35

to ensure that serial stalkers like

22:38

Muller, and this is in the UK,

22:41

are included on the violent and sexual

22:43

offenders database. I'm back in parliament

22:45

again, not physically, this week in

22:47

the victims and prisoners bill trying to

22:49

ensure they brought it in for coercive

22:52

controllers who had served 12 months on

22:54

more, but not stalkers. Laws have

22:56

to change as well to help law

22:58

enforcement to do their jobs better. I

23:01

think that that's necessary all across the world. I

23:04

digress a little, but seeing, I

23:07

was talking about Taylor Swift, the

23:09

stalker that will not leave her

23:11

alone, and looking at

23:13

New York laws on stalking, my goodness,

23:16

it's a one that anybody is convicted

23:18

of stalking there. I've never really looked

23:20

at their laws before, but stalking

23:22

in the third or fourth is seen as

23:24

a misdemeanor, and that's where most stalking

23:26

cases go. It's very light

23:29

touch stuff when stalking is a serious

23:31

crime, and it's only when it's in

23:33

the first and second degree, once someone's

23:36

committed serious harm, that it's seen as

23:38

stalking in the first or second. Why

23:40

are you waiting for something serious to

23:43

happen? They don't take into

23:45

account a stalker's history. This

23:47

man has been 30 times

23:49

seen at her apartment building, 30 times

23:52

he's been told not to enter, 10

23:54

times. He was arrested three times this

23:56

week, And they're saying, well, we

23:59

can't do anything until he does. something. The

24:01

whole point is stalking dollars to ensure

24:03

and you do it is for either

24:05

you arrested or charged them nor any

24:08

has especially after the murder of John.

24:10

Lennon by someone who had been stalking

24:12

him. Eyes, I will. I'm soft that

24:14

you're saying that the New York laws

24:16

are so lax because he would think

24:18

that after that, you know I mean

24:20

there's a memorial for him, you know,

24:22

Strawberry Fields right across from the Dakota

24:24

that we go to memorialize him. I

24:26

eat think that that they would take

24:28

it more seriously. Well.

24:30

No, they don't and I was talking about it

24:33

with. Dan Abrams last night and I must

24:35

admit, I was pretty. Horrified actually reading

24:37

through the legislation and I'm asking

24:39

the question now, has anyone been

24:41

convicted of stalking in New York?

24:43

And if it doesn't work for

24:45

Taylor Swift, I mean she's got

24:47

obviously a security. She can be

24:49

in different places, but the normal person

24:51

doesn't have all of that. so we

24:53

have to ensure that laws don't enable.

24:56

Perpetrators and. I think

24:58

that that's what we were seeing all the

25:00

time I'm in Virginia. We talked about

25:02

the Colonial Parkways murders. I'm just

25:04

learning the William Wage will miss

25:07

seniors. Dna won't go. On

25:09

to this because of Virginia

25:11

state laws that preclude because.

25:13

He's never committed a felony. They got

25:16

their own. Legislation which

25:18

says. That therefore he won't. He

25:20

set the and I won't go on

25:22

to cases and now is gonna have

25:24

to be a campaign to get the

25:27

governor to change that wire laws. Protecting

25:29

serial killers. Why are they protecting? Serious

25:31

talk. To say that again is one

25:33

thing I do have sympathy for. Law

25:35

enforcement set by up to his degree

25:37

because it's laws don't work for you.

25:39

We have to change them. And.

25:41

Therefore, it's up to all of us to

25:44

say with this law is outdated. It came

25:46

in on stalking in whatever it was. ninety.

25:48

Ninety Seven. But we now and Twenty Twenty

25:51

four and we know the stalkers use online

25:53

store to. Take nice Matthew Miller,

25:55

for example would use drones.

25:58

i mean we we didn't talk about this but drones

26:00

were recovered from a storage unit

26:02

that he had. So that's how

26:04

he was stalking them, doing surveillance

26:06

using drones. And he had sound

26:08

recording systems and they found that he

26:11

had recorded the distorted voice and the

26:13

whispering, you know, the whispering that Denise

26:15

and I spoke about. I think

26:17

that was not in... He found samples of

26:19

that. I think that wasn't as clear in

26:21

the documentary as if you don't know the

26:23

book that there was a whole pretense,

26:26

but there was more than one person there in

26:28

this home invasion, which also made them

26:31

frightened, which also led to

26:33

Denise and Aaron not fighting back because they thought

26:35

there was a whole gang of

26:37

people descending upon them. Denise thought

26:39

that somebody was with Aaron and

26:42

Aaron knew that somebody was with

26:44

Denise. So he thought if

26:46

he did something wrong, they would punish

26:48

her. They would hurt her. And that's

26:51

how you control multiple people. And that's

26:53

exactly what they did. They controlled

26:56

them. And, you know, it

26:58

was the fact

27:01

that it sounded extreme

27:03

and far-fetched to law enforcement.

27:06

Fine, but do your job and

27:08

corroborate or refute it. And they did

27:10

nothing. They did nothing to find her.

27:12

It just makes me so upset to

27:14

think that she's there going through all

27:16

that and they're not even looking for

27:18

her. Ryan.

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thirty days. A

29:01

stock has a very devious and that's why

29:04

I made these points is that we have

29:06

to be one step ahead of them and

29:08

stalkers. Adidas. This guy was a former marine.

29:10

He was a. Harvard graduate lawyer

29:12

Honey, he's only just been

29:14

disbarred in California and with

29:16

David Chrome who's stalking Taylor

29:19

Swift is also a law

29:21

student. He's. All say somebody

29:23

who might appear is ah

29:26

believable plausible. Even. Though he's

29:28

coming off as if he is the most

29:30

and. Not quite

29:32

right is how he's been described.

29:34

That the point is that stalkers

29:37

can be a very devious and.

29:39

That techniques and their tactics an hour and

29:41

did so that he was being stalked. For

29:44

some time he was being boxed. Wait, there

29:46

was a drone that was seeing. You say

29:48

this is back in Twenty Sustain is what

29:51

I'm saying is that technology moves on and

29:53

stalkers use that technology. So we must make

29:55

sure our laws are updated. The must make

29:57

sure law enforcement understand. It with a i.

30:00

and with all these advances, it

30:02

really helps stalkers do

30:04

terrible things. So you may get these

30:06

elaborate things. It might sound

30:09

fantastical, it might sound elaborate, but I can

30:11

tell you from having worked so many of

30:13

these bonkers, you know, cases

30:15

that nine times out of ten, when

30:17

I hear something fantastical, it normally

30:19

turns out to be true. So

30:21

you've got to do it all. You've got to

30:23

train law enforcement. You've

30:26

also got to have tenacity

30:28

and problem-solve perpetrators, but you

30:30

need the laws to better

30:32

protect victims. Those

30:35

laws have to have a prevention lens. That's

30:37

the whole point. You don't want people

30:39

being stabbed, shot and killed, and

30:41

then, oh yeah, let's call it stalking.

30:43

You've got to get into the early identification,

30:45

intervention, prevention. That's why I changed the law

30:47

in England and Wales and set up Paladin.

30:51

It takes everybody to use their voice

30:53

and to challenge when laws

30:55

don't work, but also, when we

30:58

have officers like Detective Misty Carrasue,

31:00

who people should be uplifting and

31:03

saying she should be awarded and

31:05

celebrated, that should be really key

31:07

in law enforcement so that we

31:10

have incredible role models, right?

31:13

And that, again, is just the misogyny and

31:15

the oppression that goes on. You

31:17

get someone that, you know, as Misty said, you

31:19

remember when we interviewed her, I just did my

31:22

job. Well, she did. She did

31:24

it very well. Yeah, she

31:26

did it very well and she was the one that solved it, but

31:30

she wasn't the one that was congratulated after

31:32

the conviction came in. No. So

31:35

that's what we have to, that's why we use our

31:37

voice on Real Crime Profile. We know we have a

31:39

lot of people who listen to us and it takes

31:41

all of us to create change, not

31:43

just one or two people. And

31:45

we've got to uplift those who are doing great

31:47

work and doing a great job and congratulate them

31:49

and make sure that those who don't, well,

31:52

they have to be sanctioned. They

31:54

do. There

31:56

has to be accountability. Well,

31:58

thank you, Laura and Lisa. Lisa, for this

32:02

interesting but infuriating discussion

32:04

about American Nightmare and the

32:08

case of Denise and Aaron, we

32:12

have so much more to talk about. We

32:15

will be back again next week

32:17

discussing the rest of this documentary

32:19

series. Thank you everyone

32:21

for listening. Until next time, this is

32:24

Real Crime Profile signing off. If

32:28

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32:30

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go, tell us about yourself

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by completing a short survey

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at wondery.com/survey. The

33:28

wait is over. So far you're

33:30

not losing. The only thing you're losing is my patience. Frankly, I see

33:32

that. The queen of the court room is back. I didn't do

33:34

anything. I see it's not

33:36

intimidated by anything. I can fix that. I can fix

33:38

that. I can fix that. I can fix that. I

33:41

can fix that. I can fix that. I

33:43

can fix that. I can fix that. I

33:45

can fix that. I can fix that. I can fix

33:47

That. Echelon

34:01

He married his cousin. Further,

34:05

That's not in here Him I would make

34:07

a beeline for the door. If.

34:11

He would win if you. Switch has.

34:13

I know that have. Crystal ball in my his

34:16

know. Swimming

34:18

you can say anything. He

34:21

just he on free. Rue

34:30

Crime Profile was created by

34:33

Jim Committee or Richards and

34:35

Leases and Betty produced by

34:38

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distributed by Wondering editing by

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