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1:27

Hello and

1:33

welcome to Real

1:35

Crime Profile. This is Jim Clemente, retired

1:38

FBI profile, a former New York City

1:40

prosecutor and writer producer of Criminal Minds.

1:42

Today is... Laura Richards, criminal

1:44

behavioral analyst, former New Scotland Yard,

1:46

founder of Paladin National Stalking Advocacy

1:48

Service, and host of the podcast

1:50

Crime Analyst. This is Anne

1:53

Beddie, I'm casting director of Cebas's Criminal

1:55

Minds and we're back discussing American Nightmare,

1:57

which is the three-part docuseries, which has

1:59

been trending number one on Netflix

2:01

in the last week or so, which

2:03

is the case of Denise Huskins and

2:06

Erin Quinn, who survived just an

2:09

absolutely surreal nightmare of an

2:12

attack of a rape and of further

2:15

traumatization by law enforcement, by

2:17

the media, and by the

2:19

public at large who ended

2:22

up not believing their story

2:24

and believing an absolute fiction

2:26

put forth by a certain

2:28

detective who was handling

2:30

their case. Yeah, I mean the

2:32

secondary trauma here is just insane.

2:34

It's off the charts, secondary

2:37

and tertiary. There's just multiple

2:39

layers to it. That's

2:42

probably one of the worst things when

2:44

we hear about what Denise had to

2:47

endure in the first place.

2:49

Right, and there's no reason for it, but

2:52

let's jump right back in. Laura,

2:54

you were talking about police officers

2:56

going with their gut to be

2:59

good detectives. Well, this officer went

3:01

with his gut in a totally

3:04

terrible direction where Detective Mustard somehow

3:07

connected Denise's story with a fictional story

3:09

of Gone Girl, which is a famous

3:11

movie with Ben Affleck and Rosman Pike.

3:13

But if you really look at the

3:16

fiction of the narrative of Gone Girl,

3:18

it doesn't match at all. In

3:21

that movie, Rosman Pike commits a murder

3:23

and she tries to control

3:25

her husband and get him blamed for

3:27

her disappearance. She does all kinds of

3:29

crazy things. She self-harms herself. It

3:34

doesn't match this at all. Why do

3:36

you think that that resonated

3:38

so much with him to the

3:41

exclusion of all other explanations

3:44

for what had happened? Yeah,

3:47

it's an interesting one, isn't it? And I

3:49

think it does talk to cultural zeitgeist, that

3:51

when something is in the zeitgeist, that can

3:54

be just borrowed and matched

3:57

wrongly across to something that's actually

3:59

completely different but the through line

4:01

is women finger

4:06

at a woman. The woman is wrong,

4:08

the woman's driving this, the woman is

4:10

out to get you, you have to

4:12

protect yourself, that kind of thing. That's

4:15

the message of that movie. And

4:17

the movie came out just before. So

4:20

I have seen this in

4:23

many cases where something can have

4:25

such an impact that it can

4:27

then be transposed onto something that's

4:29

quite different. But I always

4:32

think about it, why the cases

4:34

that I've worked, why was there a

4:36

rush to not believe the victim when

4:38

everything that I see and understand of

4:40

it points me to believe the victim.

4:43

And I think back about Adam

4:45

and Eve, well Eve was to blame

4:47

and Helen of Troy, she started the

4:50

war and Pandora's box was opened by a

4:52

woman. All the

4:54

things that are bad in history have

4:56

been in my view rewritten that it's

4:58

a woman's hand and who writes those

5:01

stories? Men. Some

5:04

will say because I advocate for women that

5:06

I hate men. And it's such an odd

5:08

leap to make but it comes from

5:11

the same place. It comes from

5:13

exactly the same place. And it's not I'm

5:15

saying this is all men and all men

5:17

are bad but the reverse is

5:19

what we see that women are liars and they

5:21

lie about being raped, they lie about domestic

5:23

violence, they lie about stalking. When

5:26

it's just not what we see in

5:28

the evidence. There are a percentage of

5:30

those cases, yes, but they're incredibly rare.

5:33

And I think even with the documentary, I mean they

5:35

lean into that a little bit of talk

5:38

about the proof of life clip that

5:41

Denise has to do, the audio clip and

5:43

you have the journal Henry Lee saying that

5:45

he got an email and there's this proof

5:48

of life and it's Denise, it's a woman

5:50

talking. She doesn't sound stressed,

5:52

she's calm, it's like she's

5:54

ordering from a takeaway

5:56

menu. And just already

5:58

it's loaded up. with all these

6:01

false assumptions about even the

6:03

proof of life audio. And

6:05

it leans into, and that's what happened at

6:08

the time, that she was lying. But

6:10

right at the end of part one, you have

6:12

the setup of the same journalist, Henry

6:15

Lee, talking about Gone Girl. And then

6:18

Nancy Grace comes in with the, you

6:20

know, is this Gone Girl? Is it

6:22

a kidnap for an ulterior motive and

6:25

lean into Nancy Grace's, you

6:27

know, face and her saying that? And then you

6:29

see a picture of Denise sitting there like cold,

6:32

clinical, you know, staring out

6:34

distant, pensive. Is she this

6:37

basic instinct, you know, devious

6:40

woman? You know, so again,

6:43

everything about it leans into that trope

6:45

of, yeah, women cannot be

6:47

trusted. And then, of course, when we get

6:49

into part two, we hear

6:52

from Denise that if you do statement

6:54

analysis of what she was saying, it

6:56

was so detailed down to

6:58

the touch of the concrete floor,

7:00

the smell of the pine trees,

7:03

everything pointed to veracity. It's

7:07

so hard, isn't it, Jim, when you hear

7:09

her describe the things in

7:11

such detail, I'm lying on cold

7:13

concrete floor. He's telling

7:15

me to get ready, get ready for what I can

7:18

hear him scrubbing. And

7:20

I can hear what sounds like duct tape. And

7:23

at that point, I've noticed I gulped

7:25

when I heard her saying that, because

7:27

I'm there feeling what she's

7:29

feeling. And she says in every horror movie

7:31

that I've seen, it's flashing through my mind.

7:33

And I'm terrified that this will be my

7:36

last moments on Earth. And what will they

7:38

be like? I because

7:40

she's hearing duct tape. I mean, this

7:42

is absolutely terrifying. All that affective detail,

7:44

all of the spatial relationships, all of

7:47

the, you know, the light coming through

7:49

the lights, being aware of of,

7:51

you know, daylight and later in

7:54

the day, all that stuff.

7:56

Remember when we talked about Dylan Farrow's

7:58

statement about what? Woody Allen

8:00

did to her and and all

8:03

the the indicators of veracity that

8:05

were in that all this other

8:08

other sensory information especially since

8:10

she couldn't rely on her

8:12

eyes. She gave so many

8:14

of those details like you said laura and

8:17

everything that i mean i was just checking

8:19

off boxes like oh my god this is

8:21

so. Why were they blind

8:23

to it because they made a decision

8:25

the law enforcement there including the fbi

8:27

agent there and and he's

8:29

got other problems too. But

8:32

the the detectives and that fbi

8:34

agent or all predisposed to

8:36

not believing her when all she

8:38

was handing them all this information

8:41

that indicated veracity i mean i've

8:43

taught thousands of law enforcement officers

8:45

across this country and around the

8:48

world. About this exact factor

8:50

that you have to look for and

8:53

they just ignore it. That moment

8:55

laura that she talks about where she's finally

8:57

able to he let her take the goggles

8:59

off and she looks at herself in the

9:02

mirror i cannot wrap my head about what

9:04

that moment must have been like how surreal

9:06

that twenty four hours before having me hours

9:08

before you're safe in your bed with your

9:11

boyfriend your physical therapist you got your everyday.

9:13

Stuff that you're doing in

9:15

your life and you are

9:18

literally your reality has split

9:20

how can your mind comprehend

9:22

that new reality so no

9:24

wonder when she's dropped back

9:26

into her world after being

9:28

released. No wonder she's

9:30

in shock and not responding the way

9:33

that we would imagine in a fiction

9:35

i just if that just really struck

9:37

me as a one minute you're safe.

9:40

And the next minute something that nobody

9:42

except for this monster i know

9:44

you don't like that word jim

9:46

but this you know psycho this

9:48

sociopath could dream up. You

9:51

know you're in his world all of

9:53

a sudden i just it just was

9:55

so effective to watch that in the

9:57

documentary. Yes i'm here had to describe

9:59

it and i think. You know, once she

10:01

talks to the dissociation, and a lot

10:03

of rape victims talk about this, it's

10:05

like they're lifted above and looking down

10:07

on themselves. And

10:10

that's what her brain had to do

10:12

to survive it, because it's too overwhelming

10:14

and to protect herself. And

10:16

then she wants to compartmentalize it, put

10:19

it in a box and move on. I've just got

10:21

to move through this. And that's what a lot of

10:24

victims do. I've got to move through this, I've got

10:26

to survive it. And remember, she has to survive

10:28

it. She doesn't know if she will. We

10:31

know she survives, but she doesn't

10:33

know what his real primary objective

10:35

is. And I think also what

10:38

makes it even worse and more

10:40

insidious is just how polite he is.

10:43

You know, he knocks on the door. He

10:45

treats it as if it's a

10:47

dating situation. And

10:49

that's the whole point of what he's trying to ensure.

10:53

And he's rationalized it in his own

10:55

head that this isn't rape, it's a

10:57

dating scenario, even down to putting the

10:59

wine and the bottles of alcohol. Oh,

11:01

the party started before me. Right. Yeah.

11:04

Everything he's trying to do is

11:06

normalize it. Yeah, but it's classic,

11:09

you know, it fits into the

11:11

typology very, very squarely of

11:13

a power reassurance rapist. A

11:15

rapist, not a boyfriend,

11:17

not a date, but

11:19

he's trying to make it feel

11:22

like that to himself to rationalize

11:24

it. And let's face

11:26

it, the rapes that he committed, he's

11:29

very clear about the motive for those

11:31

rapes, that he wants to

11:33

create video documentary

11:35

of this so that

11:37

he could use it for his own

11:40

fantasy material. And there's nothing more clear

11:42

than that in that than the

11:44

fact that he said, we have to do

11:46

it again and you have to pretend that

11:48

you're consenting to it because he

11:51

looked at the first one and it

11:53

didn't fit into his fantasy of

11:56

actually having her want to have sex with

11:58

him. So he made her... Act

12:00

as if that was the case in

12:02

the second video. This is clearly Fantasy

12:05

the production of fantasy

12:08

material rape fantasy

12:10

material something that I am

12:12

certain He has been fantasizing

12:15

about for decades decades and

12:17

he has attempted it before But

12:19

this is the first time he's able

12:22

to accomplish getting it on film in

12:24

a way that he could then look

12:26

at it Reinforce

12:28

that rousal pattern by masturbating

12:30

to it. This was

12:32

his goal in raping her and on

12:36

top of that it was also

12:38

to terrorize her to torture her

12:40

to put her through hell and

12:43

That is very sadistic and

12:45

the anticipation telling her in advance

12:47

This is going to happen and

12:49

it's going to happen again. These

12:52

kinds of things are are tortureristic

12:55

and and Sadistic, so

12:58

it's just it's very clear That's what he

13:00

wanted to do and I know

13:02

we talked before when we covered it

13:04

before about whether or not Denise

13:08

was the actual target of his Stalking

13:12

and it could be that she was

13:14

it could also be that that

13:16

Andrea the her his

13:18

prior Girlfriend was

13:21

but this at this point

13:23

she became the focus of

13:25

his fantasy she became the

13:27

focus of his intention to

13:30

cause fear and to

13:34

create this Sexual encounter

13:36

in his mind, which is a

13:38

rape. There's no question about it

13:41

He wanted to rape her and Documented

13:44

so that he could relive that

13:46

rape over and over and over

13:48

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16:15

What they also found in the

16:17

cabin was him setting

16:19

up the video at multiple angles

16:22

and seeing those angles to

16:25

film it. So

16:27

this was something that he

16:29

had pre-planned and prepared and

16:32

yes they found the videos of

16:34

the rapes and I

16:36

believe that too Jim the first rape

16:38

she had the goggles on the

16:41

second rape he brings in the alcohol

16:43

and he says to remove the goggles

16:45

and she can close her eyes so

16:48

it still looks like she's an active participant

16:50

he's doing everything to make it look like

16:52

it was consensual and the

16:54

sadistic element of it it

16:56

really is important to underline

16:59

this it really is very

17:01

sadistic to make the

17:03

rape victim can be

17:05

compliant in that rape

17:07

and active and making noises

17:09

and sounds as if they're enjoying it

17:12

when every fiber of their body is

17:14

screaming get off of

17:16

me and wanting to fight that person

17:18

and Denise read that accurately and she

17:20

said I knew he wanted

17:23

to break me and he was not going to

17:25

break me and I think it's

17:27

really interesting that he showed her the video

17:29

of her father right to break her to

17:31

have that effect so that he could look

17:33

at her while she's watching it and

17:36

hearing her dad say we love you Denise

17:38

is my hero she's my little girl and

17:40

that's what broke Denise down and

17:42

then he said it must feel real

17:45

for you now exactly

17:48

it was so critical to

17:50

him to to turn the

17:52

knife that he stuck into her you

17:54

know to make her suffer with this

17:57

but is it also leaking that it feels

17:59

real for him now, right? He's

18:01

finally achieved what he's been practicing

18:03

on so many other false attempts,

18:05

and he must be so gleeful

18:08

to see the chaos that

18:10

he's causing and all these, you know, the

18:12

people are searching the bay for her and

18:14

it's on all of the media. I mean,

18:16

he must be absolutely getting off on that.

18:18

Well, if you look at what his

18:20

behavior is, though, he

18:22

contacts the media to tell the

18:25

police that he did actually abduct

18:27

her. This is a reinforcement

18:30

of what you just said, Lisa, in his

18:32

own mind. He wants to take credit for

18:34

it, and he is

18:36

so fixated on her now that

18:38

he's sending multiple emails through

18:41

this media person because

18:43

he wants the cops to change

18:46

how they're dealing with her. Does he

18:48

want to get caught? Absolutely not. But

18:51

he wants to live this fantasy

18:53

that he had her and that

18:55

she was with him willingly. He's

18:57

got the videotapes to prove it

19:00

now. But Laura, why do you think he let

19:02

her go? Well, it's

19:04

an interesting question, isn't it? Because I

19:06

can tell you if he does it again when

19:08

he gets out, he will not let the next

19:10

victim go because he will have

19:12

learned that if you do that, then

19:14

you end up in prison. And

19:17

that bothers me immensely why

19:20

he let her go. It's my belief from

19:23

interviewing Denise and seeing how she is

19:25

that she talked him into feeling that

19:27

there was some rapport between them. And

19:30

I think she saved her own life. I

19:32

think her communication skills are second to

19:35

none. She read the situation that many

19:37

would not have read in the way

19:39

that she did. And

19:41

she responded in

19:43

every way that was right to maintain her

19:46

survival. She did what she had to to

19:48

survive it. And I've always said this with

19:50

all the thousands of rape statements I read

19:52

at New Scotland Yard, I always had to

19:54

remember that I'm reading someone

19:56

who managed to survive something that they

19:59

didn't know at the time whether they would.

20:02

And so we did

20:04

everything to ensure that she got out of

20:06

there alive. And we don't know every part

20:09

of the dialogue, do we, between the two

20:11

of them. But I believe that she made

20:13

him feel the things that he needed to

20:15

feel in order to not

20:17

physically harm her and in order to let

20:19

her go. And that's why

20:22

she's alive today. Yeah. And I also

20:24

think there's probably a sadistic component to

20:26

it. Because remember, he said, if you

20:28

do this, if you tell the police

20:31

this, I will come back and

20:33

get you not just to the rest of your family. Sadism

20:36

is really a part of his life

20:38

and his fantasies. And I think by

20:40

letting her go, it extends

20:42

into the future his sadistic

20:45

gratification, the fact that he

20:47

could keep her in fear

20:49

even at a distance. I

20:52

really believe that's one of his motivating factors.

20:54

Yeah, I do think he felt he had

20:56

ultimate control of her. And

20:59

that was the satiation point that he

21:01

had broken her. He did have ultimate

21:03

control. What I hear from Denise is

21:06

that he didn't. She

21:08

gave him what she needed to, to survive

21:10

it. And I don't want anyone to

21:12

read that wrongly. Because

21:15

oftentimes, I mean, I've seen extraordinary

21:17

things in rape scenarios and judgments

21:19

being made when somebody does go

21:21

along with something, then you are

21:24

consenting and or your body betrays you

21:26

and something happens, then oh, you enjoyed it,

21:28

you were, you know, an active

21:30

participant. That's not the case at all. She

21:33

did everything. And I think it's down to a

21:35

testament to her mental fortitude,

21:38

and her understanding the situation. But

21:41

yes, he's a very sadistic, very

21:43

dangerous individual. And because he's devious,

21:46

and he did his research,

21:48

this is something that's been a fantasy of his

21:50

for a very long time, and he's never quite

21:53

managed to pull thing off. You

21:55

know, there is some degree

21:58

of feeling jubilant and victor.

22:00

notorious and he's managed to do all of

22:02

this and yet he's seeing in the media that

22:05

They're then both being blamed and that

22:07

the police are treating them appallingly I

22:09

have never seen a perpetrator then write

22:12

a letter to advocate for the

22:14

victims and Say that they're

22:16

being treated appallingly and that this did

22:19

happen and he continued to advocate for

22:21

them the whole way through the

22:23

trial as well, which is Astounding

22:25

in terms of that his psychopathology, but then

22:27

he's changed his story many times We have

22:30

to remember this that over a

22:32

number of years particularly more recently. He's changed his

22:34

story No, I don't remember that. Can you

22:36

remind us? Yeah, well he he

22:39

has said and I don't obviously like

22:41

to platform perpetrators narratives, but first

22:44

of all, obviously he was advocating for them

22:46

and he said that they're being treated appallingly

22:48

and You should have believed

22:50

the niece but in in

22:52

2018 he said that he

22:54

wasn't guilty and that he just felt sorry for

22:56

the couple and He said

22:58

I don't think there's any excuse for

23:00

the way that the valet owed police

23:03

department handled it That's why

23:05

I thought it was worth it to take

23:07

a dive and make sure they achieve justice

23:09

for that wrongful accusation

23:11

Mmm, there are sense. Okay. Yeah,

23:14

it doesn't make sense, you know, and he's

23:16

claimed mental health issues He claimed that he

23:18

had Gulf War illness and that he was

23:20

bipolar He's had

23:22

his lawyer advocate for him

23:25

saying that he was

23:27

a manic Depressant and that

23:29

he could be treated for

23:32

his behavior and that he's not a

23:34

risk where everything about

23:36

his behavior This is like

23:38

top-level psychopathy. Oh, absolutely and

23:41

you know and sero rapist stuff

23:43

But I think it's also the

23:45

reason why he advocated for them

23:47

is because well mainly for

23:50

Denise is because that that fit into

23:52

his fantasy that she was with him

23:54

and she wanted to be with him

23:56

and They were actually on a date

23:58

and that is just completing

24:01

the circle in his brain, that

24:03

he cares about her, right? That

24:05

he doesn't want her to be

24:07

mistreated. Meanwhile, he fucking raped

24:09

her, he put her through

24:12

torture as hell, not knowing whether she was

24:14

going to live another five minutes, and

24:16

then drugged her to keep

24:19

her, you know, controlled. I mean, all

24:21

this stuff is totally inconsistent, but it

24:23

is consistent with his fantasy. Yes,

24:26

and remember with Tracy, she woke

24:28

up in the middle of the night and a figure

24:31

dressed in black was on her bed and on top

24:33

of her, and she fought

24:35

back, but then she decided, you know, she

24:37

cried and she pleaded with him and said,

24:39

please don't rape me. And he

24:41

didn't rape her, he

24:43

then gave her crime prevention advice and told

24:45

her to get a dog and all

24:48

of this stuff, which I've heard before from

24:50

a number of cases. Well, that's very common

24:52

in, you know, in

24:58

power reassurance rapists, and, you know,

25:00

it doesn't make them any less of a rapist.

25:02

It's just a

25:04

clue into their mindset

25:06

and into how they rationalize their

25:09

own behavior. Yeah, how

25:12

they rationalize it, and I think we

25:14

talked about it previously, but just the

25:16

police response is, are you sure you

25:18

didn't have a bad dream, which is

25:20

just utterly unthinkable when then

25:22

asking her boyfriend, is she an

25:25

attention seeker? You know, again, we're

25:27

not talking about isolated cases of these sorts

25:29

of behaviors. And let's not forget Chief

25:31

Badoo, who had said to burn the

25:34

bitch talking about Denise, you know,

25:36

these sorts of attitudes that just

25:38

keep coming up time and time

25:40

again. But I think in terms of

25:42

Muller, he is an interesting, clearly

25:45

intelligent individual. But

25:48

a lot of what he says is inconsistent

25:51

and doesn't make sense at

25:53

all in terms of, you know, even the

25:55

sentencing, but he was intelligent,

25:58

Harvard grad, even the way he presents, six

26:00

foot, like a kind of average

26:03

American guy, but

26:05

understood law. This isn't somebody who

26:08

you would think would be doing these

26:11

types of behaviors and therefore it really

26:13

does challenge that myth about who

26:16

the rapists are. Because I always say this,

26:19

that we all know people who've

26:21

been sexually victimized, but can

26:23

normal people name any perpetrators

26:25

who do that victimization. We

26:28

know the victims and it's almost like there

26:30

are no perpetrators that have faces and names

26:33

because they are just regular Joes. And

26:37

he for me just exemplifies that. And

26:39

I'm wondering, this is one thing I do

26:41

wish that the documentary had kind of gotten

26:43

into or maybe there would be another version

26:45

of it, is the people around him, did they

26:47

suspect anything about him? His mother is talked

26:51

about when they find his phone

26:53

and they call his mother and she knows that

26:55

she's up, holed up in South

26:57

Lake Tahoe in their family cabin, which he's

26:59

completely trashed. I'm just wondering if there were

27:01

people in his orbit that kind of suspected

27:03

anything or his other relationships. I think he

27:05

had been married before if I'm not, I

27:08

might not be remembering that right. And

27:10

also I really wish that they would

27:12

have gotten some of those Vallejo police

27:15

officers to sit down and answer for

27:17

themselves one way or the other. Even

27:19

to apologize, have some kind of accountability.

27:21

I got this wrong, this is why

27:24

I got this wrong. Because

27:26

there would be so much more learning and you'd

27:28

have so much more respect for them, even admitting

27:30

mistakes like this was my mindset at the time

27:32

and I was wrong. And it

27:35

would do so much more to heal. They're never

27:38

going to have closure but at least it

27:40

would heal a little bit. That's

27:42

why I don't respect them because they don't take

27:44

responsibility. They never made a public statement saying that

27:46

they were wrong and absolving

27:49

Aaron and Denise and

27:51

they never actually did

27:53

anything to correct the

27:56

record. They left the record as

27:58

it was that this was a hoax and they were

28:00

liars and that they were going to go

28:02

out after them with criminal proceedings if they

28:04

could. That's it. Just

28:06

wrong. And I've never

28:08

been more embarrassed by FBI agent

28:10

behavior than I was in this

28:12

case. We said we

28:15

were going to go back and

28:17

talk about FBI agent David Sesma

28:19

had been dating Andrea who was

28:21

Aaron's ex-girlfriend who had been living

28:23

in the house till

28:25

a few weeks before this

28:27

home invasion abduction. And

28:30

because of that he should have conflicted

28:33

himself out. He should have been a

28:35

witness in the case, in the investigation,

28:37

not an investigator involved in it. And

28:40

then he blatantly lied about

28:42

the facts of the case

28:44

afterwards. And he was

28:46

never even taken to task on it.

28:49

He was not reprimanded for it. And

28:52

that's wrong. It shouldn't

28:54

be. The

28:57

FBI should be held to a higher standard. And

28:59

he certainly, if he's

29:01

working cases involving abductions

29:03

and sexual assaults, he should

29:05

be trained. And if he

29:07

wasn't, then he shouldn't be working those kinds of

29:10

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31:10

the question for me is the conflict of interest

31:13

that he shouldn't have been on this at all.

31:16

Because he knew Andrea the

31:18

X and so it leaves them wide open

31:20

to is he involved or was

31:22

he involved in somewhere it leads it wide

31:25

open to that question doesn't it? He

31:27

may well not have been but the problem

31:29

is it can't be ruled out because it

31:31

looks really sketchy. So I agree

31:33

to him. They have to be held to

31:35

a higher standard. And

31:38

it wasn't just Aaron's ex, it was

31:40

his fiancee who was his ex fiancee

31:42

that Denise and him had

31:44

been well Aaron was still interested in

31:46

the ex fiancee and Denise was very

31:49

upset about that and that's what that

31:51

night they were talking about weren't they?

31:53

They were having a long emotional discussion

31:55

about it so

31:57

without relationship sort of turbulence. It

32:00

leads it wide open because I think David Sesma

32:02

was having an affair with

32:04

Andrea. So to be so tightly

32:07

connected to the case when

32:09

it was a big question mark about what was really going

32:11

on, he shouldn't have been involved

32:13

at all, full stop. Look, in

32:15

the FBI, having an affair

32:18

actually can make you lose

32:20

your security clearance and

32:22

lose your job because

32:24

it's something that somebody could use.

32:27

This has been since the beginning of the FBI. It's

32:29

something that someone can use to extort

32:31

you and that is why he

32:33

should never have been involved in this case. Unbelievable.

32:37

Yeah, it really is. It's another unbelievable

32:39

element to it. And just to go back to

32:42

your question Lisa, yes, I would be very

32:44

curious about who knew what about Matthew

32:46

Muller. His mother, did he have any

32:48

friends? He did say he was married at one

32:50

point. I would be really interested to

32:52

know what his wife, ex-partners

32:54

would say about him. I would just

32:56

expect there to be coercive control. I

32:58

would expect there to be behaviours that

33:00

were abusive and not

33:02

always physically, but the coercive elements

33:04

because of his levels of sadism

33:07

and the fantasy issues that

33:09

he had. But the planning that went

33:11

into this, it probably would have taken up a lot

33:13

of his time. The

33:16

things that he was doing, like the

33:18

recording devices and the

33:20

sound systems, the blow up doll

33:22

wearing the wetsuit, the drones, the

33:25

remote controlled drones, the

33:27

ransom. I mean, let's not forget this came in

33:29

as a robbery initially when he

33:31

went through their door and woke Denise and Aaron. He

33:33

said that it was a robbery and then it became

33:36

a kidnap for ransom and it

33:38

kept changing as to what it was. Exactly.

33:42

Yeah. And let's not forget this

33:44

ransom was never paid. So there's a big clue for me. We

33:47

talked about it last time, but this wasn't about

33:49

money. He only demanded $17,000, which is nothing

33:51

to abduct someone and to do these things

33:58

it tells me that it's not a serious. No.

34:01

Demand. And I think we talked

34:03

about it initially in our initial coverage.

34:05

You abduct people like an ambassador's kid

34:07

or a politician, like somebody who is

34:09

of means, not a

34:11

physical therapist who's got probably a

34:13

lot of student loans outstanding and

34:15

doesn't have a lot. Why

34:18

would that person be the target of an

34:20

abduction? It doesn't make any sense. They

34:22

weren't high value targets and that's the

34:25

whole point. And when

34:27

we talked to Nicky, we went back and forth

34:29

on that, that having worked a lot of TIGE

34:32

kidnaps, it's a substantial amount of money

34:34

that is demanded. If you're going to

34:36

go to all of this effort, it's

34:39

got to be worth it, right? Risk and reward. Right,

34:41

Jim? Yeah. And we

34:44

all know another case in which a

34:46

ridiculous amount was requested and it was

34:48

ten times that, right? And

34:52

even that was ridiculous in that case. The

34:55

fact is that the

34:58

behavior exhibited by this

35:00

offender, and it's very

35:02

deliberate, it's very manipulative. And like

35:04

you said, he's a slippery, slimy

35:06

dude, Laura. He is

35:08

somebody who has thought about this,

35:11

spent many hours putting things together,

35:14

dying fake guns and taping

35:16

flashlights and strobe lights and

35:19

laser pointers on them and

35:22

making the goggles

35:24

that are taped over and all

35:26

of these plans and having a

35:28

blow-up doll to make it look like

35:30

there's somebody else in the car. All

35:33

of this is all pointed at

35:36

pre-attack surveillance and stalking

35:39

and preparation. But

35:41

he wasn't very sophisticated as a

35:43

criminal. He was smart,

35:45

but not a criminally sophisticated

35:48

offender. And that's what

35:50

eventually brought him down when a detective

35:52

who actually cared about her

35:56

job, Misty, actually did

35:59

her job. that's when this case

36:01

was brought down. I just

36:03

want to read what's on the United

36:05

States Attorney's Office at the Eastern District

36:07

of California. What was written

36:10

on there and still is, and the headline,

36:12

this is from Thursday the 16th of March

36:14

2017, is former attorney

36:16

and US Marine sentenced to 40

36:18

years in prison in Vallejo

36:21

kidnapping. So

36:23

in sentencing, Muller, Judge Nunley, referred

36:25

to the defendant's actions as heinous

36:27

and held him responsible for his

36:29

actions. US Attorney Talbot

36:32

said, the sentence imposed today

36:34

reflects the egregiousness of Muller's conduct

36:36

in this case. Muller had

36:38

advantages in life that most people only dream

36:40

of, yet he used his

36:42

considerable intelligence to plan and execute

36:44

the physical assault and the psychological

36:47

torture of two innocent strangers. It's

36:50

difficult to imagine the level of suffering

36:52

that Muller inflicted on his victims. The

36:54

sentence handed down today takes into account

36:57

that suffering and strives to ensure

36:59

that Muller will never again commit

37:01

such crimes. That's a

37:03

good statement, but it goes on. The

37:07

serious violent crime was solved because

37:09

Alameda County authorities responded so

37:11

effectively to the Dublin burglary

37:13

and then provided the evidence

37:15

necessary for the effective federal

37:17

investigation and prosecution of this

37:19

case. The quality

37:21

of local and federal investigative

37:23

work is reflected in Muller's

37:25

two criminal convictions in Alameda

37:28

County and in the Eastern

37:30

District of California. I'm grateful

37:32

for the outstanding cooperation between

37:34

the FBI, the Alameda County

37:36

Sheriff's Department, the Alameda District

37:38

Attorney, and the Vallejo Police

37:41

Department. Not

37:43

so much, Judge. Not so much. A

37:45

bit of white washing there. Why

37:48

did he even need that coda? I mean, what

37:50

is that about? Unbelievable. I

37:52

mean, for me, this just writes

37:54

out Misty from the success of

37:56

this case and it's

37:59

just not true. to write these things. The

38:01

first part of the statement was great and what

38:03

the judge said was great. But

38:05

that's not a reflection of what really went on.

38:07

Yes, there were other people who worked hard, but

38:10

I really don't think that it's okay to

38:12

write out those who are the heroes and

38:14

sheroes in cases. They should be named and

38:16

they should be held up. And

38:19

we talked before about what the prosecutor said, that

38:21

they only went for the federal charge of kidnapping

38:23

and that he would serve 40 years and therefore

38:25

he'd come out in his 70s and would no

38:27

longer be a risk. And of

38:29

course, Denise and Aaron, we discussed that those

38:31

in their 70s when they're a power and

38:34

control related crimes, when they're psychopathy, they're still

38:36

a risk. Miller pleaded no

38:38

contest to two counts of rape,

38:40

but he pleaded guilty to robbery,

38:42

burglary and false imprisonment, which is

38:44

a 31 year sentence which will

38:46

run concurrently with the 40 years.

38:49

So his release date

38:51

will be July 8th, 2049. Yeah. Well,

38:53

he'll still be

38:56

a risk. That's

39:00

the problem. We hope that

39:02

Denise and Aaron can have some measure of

39:04

comfort that he will be away for a very,

39:06

very long time. And it's great to see that

39:08

they've started a family and they have two wonderful

39:10

kids and they're living their lives. They're going on

39:13

and that's an amazing thing. That's

39:17

a great thing. And I'm really happy for them. And

39:20

they've helped many others because I think telling their

39:22

story and people seeing this on

39:24

Netflix now, it really helps

39:26

other people in their own

39:28

traumas deal with that. And it also

39:31

spotlights the real heroes and sheroes. So

39:33

yes, it is a story of hope

39:35

and courage and love. That's

39:37

what I wrote on the book. It's

39:39

also one that makes you want to burn your house down.

39:41

But I think the key part

39:44

is that it's a story of true

39:46

survival, hope and courage. And they are

39:48

remarkable, remarkable people. And I'm very happy

39:50

they've had two children. They had their little

39:52

girl, Olivia, when they were writing

39:55

the book or they had written it and then they

39:57

welcomed their second daughter. And what's the

39:59

point? Wow, what an incredible role

40:01

model Denise is for both of

40:03

them. Absolutely. And what an incredible

40:05

survivor she is. And they're both

40:07

thriving. So that's a real positive

40:09

to end on. Absolutely. So

40:11

please do watch American Nightwear on

40:14

Netflix. I think we do three thumbs

40:16

up from the three of us. But

40:19

please do go read the book Victim

40:21

F, which will give you

40:23

a much, much bigger picture

40:25

on the enormity of this

40:27

horrible case. Yes, and listen

40:29

to our previous episodes. I think someone had the question

40:31

of who's JJ. And in the book, the

40:34

ex-fiancee was referred to as Jennifer and shortened

40:36

to JJ. So for those who are

40:38

asking that question in our previous series, she's

40:41

referred to in her real name as

40:43

Andrea in the series. So do listen to

40:45

our extensive episodes

40:47

on the case. And you'll hear Denise and

40:49

Aaron in their quest for

40:51

answers and fighting for

40:53

accountability. And you'll hear Jim and I

40:56

say some very important things that they

40:58

needed to hear from law enforcement or

41:00

former law enforcement. So

41:02

thank you all so much for listening. And

41:04

this is Real Crime Profile, signing out. If

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42:56

or wherever you get your podcasts. Prime

42:58

members can listen early and at free

43:00

on Amazon Music. Judy

43:56

Justice. Only on Freebie. I'll

44:01

have the

44:03

Ti MekOOchah

44:06

book out there and you can read more about it sometime soon.

44:08

Thanks. Here

44:10

is the English cover in this little advocacy

44:13

classic. It is also knownanout Cut paradigm presentation

44:15

for short return of

44:20

the NASAmissions Gym. Composed

44:26

and performed by Simba Simba.