0:01

This is beyond a reasonable

0:04

doubt. With your hosts,

0:06

Mark Geraga, and Gary

0:08

Smith.

0:10

Gary, happy Sunday. Welcome to the altar

0:12

of Bart. Everybody who's watching and listening

0:15

has become quite a phenomena and

0:18

always glad to I mean, it really

0:20

kinda kicks off the the the

0:22

Sunday. You

0:23

know? I'll tell you, I love it. I do

0:25

see that. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a nice way

0:27

to to get get Sunday going and feel like you

0:29

got something accomplished behind you for the rest

0:31

of the day. Absolutely.

0:33

And Gary and I were in deciding

0:35

topics. We were we

0:37

were toured because we definitely

0:40

want to talk about the Pelosi video,

0:42

but we feel we almost feel like it

0:44

would be blasphemy to do without a

0:46

presence so. I think so. I I think it's

0:48

we're best to wait until Tuesday. Okay.

0:51

Okay. And then, breakfast as

0:53

well. mean, I have a lot to say about emphasis,

0:55

but we should do it in a log format. I

0:57

mean, I it kind of I'll

1:00

give it coming to traction for Tuesday. Kind

1:02

of is right there in

1:04

kind of a continuing conversation

1:07

that you and ACE have had

1:09

for years. And when I say years,

1:11

I need years, that this is

1:13

a police cultivate culture

1:16

problem as opposed to the way

1:18

it's been characterized. I think

1:21

a lot of a lot of times in the past

1:23

and that's a larger form discussion

1:26

that we can have on

1:27

Tuesday. Yeah. Most definitely. And and

1:29

probably even beyond in the next Friday

1:31

because, like you said, it is a a much

1:33

longer form

1:33

discussion. We're gonna need to to have some time

1:36

with it. You know, I believe

1:39

you you can see here that it there's

1:41

a discombobulation amongst

1:44

people who come and who thought they under

1:46

doing this and and now

1:48

there there are certain facts

1:51

that just don't fit into their narratives,

1:53

so to speak. And and

1:56

from Barr's standpoint, my standpoint, coming

1:58

on the heels especially of settling

2:02

the the shaver case and arguing the

2:04

partridge case in St. Louis and

2:07

watching the

2:09

case that we're tentatively scheduled

2:12

in Los Angeles. I mean, I've got a we

2:14

could take fifteen minutes on all of that.

2:16

But clearly, there's something else going

2:19

on here as we've been kind of

2:21

shouting for the last eight

2:23

years during this show and

2:25

we'll let Ace participate on it.

2:28

Yep. So we're gonna return to to

2:30

one of Gary and my standby favorites

2:33

because it's got virtually

2:35

everything in it is. Kind of

2:37

captured the national imagination

2:40

of those who like true crime

2:42

and court cases and

2:45

sex and drugs and you

2:47

name it. It's got everything in the law.

2:49

So that's, of

2:51

course, the Murdock case. Yeah.

2:53

Absolutely. That's that's a case that we've been

2:55

following for at at least half the life of

2:57

this podcast. I mean, it's been going on

2:59

in one way or another. You know, I think we found

3:01

it twenty twenty, but the boat crash was in

3:03

twenty nineteen. So it's been going for a while

3:05

and we're finally here.

3:07

Yeah. And we're in the midst of trial

3:09

and emotions are heated and

3:11

the motions in the courtroom, obviously,

3:13

by Alex Murdo and some

3:16

of the some of the things

3:18

that I that I just I shake

3:20

my head when I, you know, I follow some of the

3:22

people who are very invested

3:24

in Twitter. And it's amazing to

3:26

be the kinds of things they say. There is

3:28

a basic assumption of guilt

3:31

amongst the the Twitter

3:33

chatter people. And

3:35

that's fine. I understand, you

3:37

know, there's nothing that says, only

3:40

if you're in the jury box, basically,

3:42

do you have to add? I think if you're

3:44

responsible. Media person, do

3:46

you kind of have to always couch

3:48

these things with the presumption of

3:51

innocence, which is the legal standard.

3:53

But the people I mean, when

3:55

I see lawyers say idiotic stuff

3:57

like, well, his family, Murdock's

4:00

family, is sitting on his

4:02

side of the courtroom. Not the prosecution

4:05

side of the quorum, and that's a betrayal

4:08

to the people who died. You just

4:10

have to scratch your head and say,

4:12

Do you understand that that is

4:14

the legal conclusion that you're

4:16

there for? You've already

4:18

assumed the guilt So why

4:20

are you telling the family, by the way,

4:23

who has the right, and the

4:25

unfettered right, and most jurisdictions

4:27

constitutional right, to

4:29

be heard. Why are you telling them they

4:31

cannot support their

4:33

family member and that they should

4:35

be with the prosecution? It's It's

4:38

a benevolent and just frankly

4:40

illogical

4:42

position to take. Yeah. I was really

4:44

confused when I saw that take that, you

4:46

know, it it somehow is telegraphing to

4:48

the jury. I I just I don't

4:50

know. I I it seems

4:53

I seem to I seem to remember plenty of

4:55

cases where, you know, families

4:57

will come out in support even if they don't necessarily

5:00

you think that the the party is innocent. You

5:02

know, that's their family member who's still

5:05

around and they're gonna be there to support them through

5:07

a very tough time in their life one way or

5:09

another. And I understand that this is

5:11

a a case involving family and, you

5:13

know, it's it's easy and fun to snipe from

5:15

the cheap

5:15

seats, but that one just never made sense to

5:17

me. You know, it it it still doesn't,

5:19

by the way, you know, you're referring

5:22

to another case that has

5:24

got subtraction, that Idaho

5:26

four. I saw an interview, not

5:28

the interview with the woman

5:32

who is represented by

5:35

Brian's public defender, but

5:37

a father of one of the deceased.

5:40

And he had such a thoughtful

5:43

kind of moving response

5:46

to all of this. He was reserving

5:48

judgment. He was not asking

5:51

for death penalty be severally

5:54

executed. It's just I

5:56

don't know that I can even approach

5:58

that into his situation, but

6:00

it was impressive, I thought. And

6:02

here, you know, unless you've

6:04

been in this horrific situation,

6:07

to kind of steal or

6:09

rip your to

6:11

snipe from the cheat sheets about it

6:13

seems to me to not be to

6:16

not to to kind of be

6:18

a bumper sticker as opposed to giving

6:20

it a little bit of thought. Yeah. You

6:22

know, not to not to use a term that's

6:24

become so hot button in the recent years,

6:26

but it's it it seems virtue

6:28

signaling to

6:29

me. It's it's like, you know,

6:31

what are we what are we doing? Well,

6:33

there's it's interesting too because the

6:36

part of the fight this week was, you

6:39

know, are they gonna get a conviction? Is

6:41

it a judgment that appears who

6:43

where is this jury pulled

6:46

from? What are the --

6:49

what's the composition of the jury

6:52

is you, though, Gary, I always

6:54

feel like those are the the

6:56

most legitimate questions you could ask

6:58

because, you know, the who your jury

7:00

is. I have to say, once I picked a

7:02

jury, unless I I

7:04

teased Mark Albera during the George

7:06

Zimmerman trial. I said Mark, after

7:08

you got that jury, The

7:10

only way you lose this case is if you're followed,

7:12

hit your head, you know, get a CTE.

7:15

So that's there's I

7:17

joke about it, but that's kind of the truth

7:19

of it. There's an interesting clip

7:21

I saw. You have a Gary where we

7:23

could play that kind of delves

7:26

into the dynamics there

7:28

locally? Yes. I do.

7:29

This is some thoughts from, you know, this is a

7:32

a reporter going around and interviewing kind

7:34

of normal locals as to what they

7:36

think given their time experiencing in

7:38

the community.

7:42

It is a bit of a circus each day when

7:45

Alec Murdoch enters the courthouse.

7:48

Across the

7:48

street, you hear the sound of generators. Powering

7:51

what feels almost like a food truck

7:53

party. How's how's the food?

7:55

Well, the food is green. Yeah. This is really good. This

7:57

is a barbe local

7:58

barbecue. Yeah. I

8:00

met Larry Adams and his wife's Sandra.

8:02

Larry grew up in the South Carolina low

8:04

country. Hopefully, they'll do the right things. The

8:06

whole nation watching them. And

8:09

gave me the new time for the good old boy stuff,

8:11

and I had a real true justice.

8:13

What did you

8:14

say? Old boys. What what do you mean? I

8:16

mean, you get a regular stuff. This

8:18

this stuff slip on the road. Buy

8:22

your stuff. What do you think is gonna happened.

8:24

You know, I was discussing it

8:26

with my husband, and I said to

8:28

him, the jury is

8:30

not all from here. How

8:33

thin is it gonna be? Rose

8:35

Loeb Hope and her friend Rob and Pato drove

8:37

an hour hoping to catch a glimpse of

8:39

Alec

8:39

Murdoch. What do you think it is about this

8:42

case that has people so fascinated?

8:44

I

8:44

think because it has so many different

8:46

storylines to just this this

8:48

is not the only thing, the murder trial.

8:50

It goes real in-depth and has a lot

8:52

of intrigue and just

8:55

very interesting and very sad

8:56

actually. Based

8:57

on, you know, his history here, do

9:00

you think he could get off? I think he

9:02

could get off. Yes. Just because

9:04

of the big name that they are

9:06

and all the things I've gotten away

9:08

with. Yeah. I think so.

9:10

Talk with the people from here and you

9:12

realize very quickly. This is all about a

9:14

lot more than just this RIAL FOR

9:16

THEM. IT'S BIGGER. A HISTORY

9:18

THEY SAY OF POWERFUL FAMILIES

9:20

WHO FEEL ABOVE THE

9:22

LAW. shows you how

9:25

our city is run,

9:28

is

9:28

rain. All the people who

9:30

we let Now,

9:32

it's time for you to work, and I'm gonna leave

9:34

you just like that. Do you think

9:36

this could change things? Yes.

9:39

Yeah. Hopeful. And then let

9:41

them see them You can't keep doing the same thing

9:43

and getting away with stuff like this. It's

9:47

it's fascinating because there you've

9:49

got people who also were

9:51

assuming guilt with the exception of

9:53

the couple who was in the

9:56

the the sandwich between.

9:58

Because, you know, getting justice, so

10:00

that means getting in a conviction. Like,

10:03

get away with it, suggests that

10:05

you believe that somebody is guilty and

10:07

if they get away with it, a

10:09

not guilty verdict is getting away

10:11

with it, and then the last woman

10:13

who was interviewed was talking

10:15

about they're basically the same

10:17

theme. So their

10:19

the jury selection and the

10:21

jurors, that's something

10:23

that you've got to be attuned to because that

10:25

only is there I don't know if there's so

10:27

much race as kind

10:29

of a marketing back to where

10:31

we're going to be with Memphis. I

10:33

don't know there is so much races. It

10:35

is class and status

10:38

social

10:39

stratification. That is the word.

10:41

Yeah. Class was exactly the word that I

10:43

was thinking as well before you said

10:45

it it seems that it's you know, the

10:47

these locals and and these people that were interviewed

10:50

specifically in this clip sure seemed to view

10:52

this family as powerful to

10:54

a point of you know,

10:56

just separation. I mean, they're they are on a

10:58

different strata when it comes to the

11:00

things that they can accomplish and,

11:02

you know, it it doesn't it's

11:04

not wholly unreasonable when you look at some of

11:06

the things, you know, especially going back to the boat

11:08

crash and, you know, just within a few hours,

11:10

there are several members family in the

11:12

hospital trying to talk to the people

11:14

involved. And, you know, that's a level of

11:16

access that I doubt that woman

11:19

who they interviewed who ran her own food truck would

11:21

have gotten if one of her family members was

11:23

involved in something

11:23

similar. So it's you know, it doesn't

11:26

strike I agree. It's not I'm

11:28

not condemning it in the leap. I'm just

11:30

making the observation that

11:33

that it's important to understand that

11:35

there's crosscurrents going on here

11:37

that some people may

11:39

not appreciate just how kind

11:41

of strong the

11:43

currents are. Another thing

11:45

that that was

11:48

on display this week

11:50

in the testimony was something

11:53

that we've talked about before and

11:55

still sometimes I read the comments

11:58

and people still don't understand what

12:01

what what the point is. And so I'll

12:03

try to explicate it. You would be,

12:05

you know, don't get

12:07

confused when we talk about cell

12:09

phone data because that was some of the

12:12

information that as you know Gary

12:14

was testified to this

12:15

week. Yeah. For when we missed it,

12:18

Mark's referring to a clip that we're

12:20

a a tweet that we showed where A911

12:23

operator was up there to testify that she was

12:25

in a neighboring county from where Alex Murdoch

12:27

called and because his cell phone picked up off

12:29

of the tower that was in her county, the 911

12:31

call got routed to her even though it

12:33

should have been most most people would assume

12:36

it would have been routed to the county he was standing

12:37

in. Right.

12:38

And there there are people who say, wow.

12:40

You know, I do you then

12:43

do you distrust your

12:45

Mac's app for for so it's on

12:47

your phone because that is

12:49

GPS enabled? Understand that

12:51

is not what we are talking about

12:53

here. You're talking apples and

12:55

oranges. What they are testifying to

12:57

is and what the law enforcement

12:59

gets access to because it's

13:02

after the fact. It's very

13:04

similar to the difference between

13:06

when you get the

13:08

the you get a wire tap.

13:11

If you've got a wire tap of the

13:13

conversations in real time,

13:15

you know what the conversation sends

13:17

You know who the people are and

13:20

who's talking presumably if you know

13:22

their voices. If you get what's

13:24

called the the pet register, the

13:26

the records after you just

13:28

know that a phone call was made.

13:30

Okay? So there's a substantive difference

13:33

there. It's the same thing here. They

13:35

get after the fact the cell

13:37

phone tower records

13:39

that shows which tower

13:41

the phone is picking up of.

13:43

They're not getting necessarily the

13:46

GPS needed

13:48

real time records. That's not what they're

13:50

testifying to. So stop

13:52

with that miss dober because

13:55

the unless they've got

13:57

there is a way to get so that

13:59

you understand. You can get that information.

14:02

But generally law

14:04

enforcement does not, and that

14:06

is not what the actual

14:09

witness testimony was on

14:11

the stand. In fact, as you

14:13

just explained it, Kerry, it was

14:15

exactly what we've been talking about for

14:17

years here. The towers

14:19

are and the tower

14:21

information is saved. That

14:23

is what the carrier saves.

14:25

When they then after the fact

14:27

subpoena the carrier, they get the

14:29

cell phone towers that

14:31

that show the pig activity. Well, the

14:34

pig activity is determined

14:36

by how busy one

14:38

particular tower is or not

14:40

busy if they lay it off. can,

14:42

you know, automatically, can lay

14:44

off from one tower to

14:46

another. So understand in

14:49

the way, for those who say, well, what

14:51

about WiFi? Yes, WiFi can

14:53

have the same kind of

14:55

misleading effect. That is exactly

14:57

the point. And That is exactly

15:00

what the lawyers will be fighting

15:02

about that you could not say

15:04

to any degree of scientific certainty

15:07

that somebody picked on one

15:08

tower, that means that somebody was

15:11

directly under that tower or within a certain

15:13

radius. Yeah. And more to your point,

15:15

you know, I think people get

15:17

confused because they do look at their maps app when they're

15:19

driving and they can see the little blue dot.

15:21

You know, if you have an iPhone, that that

15:23

information is stored on the chip in

15:25

your phone. It's not distribute it. That's

15:27

for your use only and it is forward

15:29

facing for the user. But, you know, you

15:31

brought up WiFi. It is entirely

15:33

possible to be in your home connected

15:35

to WiFi paying off of one tower and that tower

15:37

gets too busy for some reason and you would

15:39

start paying off another tower without ever

15:41

having

15:41

moved. That's totally possible. While

15:44

sitting while sitting in your spot, so

15:46

understand that. But the and

15:49

that is what actually

15:51

gets presumably testified to

15:53

by the experts or by the carrier.

15:56

That's what I've done these

15:59

cross examinations on more

16:02

types than I can count.

16:04

And sometimes it's

16:06

helpful to escalate somebody

16:08

because you can show that

16:10

somebody is consistent, especially if you've got

16:12

their phone to your point, you

16:14

can then pinpoint That's a

16:16

different quality and type of

16:18

evidence than the self owned hour

16:19

evidence. Yep. Absolutely. Well,

16:22

Mark, Thank you very much for your time this morning.

16:24

I appreciate it. I'm sure we could go another twenty

16:26

minutes because this case is just so

16:28

fascinating. But we have several other cases to

16:30

get too early this week as soon as we get back

16:32

with ACE, and I look forward to

16:33

it. So to why, Gary. Always good to see

16:36

you. And to everybody, have a

16:38

safe and sound Sunday, and we

16:40

got a little bit of

16:41

football. There

16:41

you go. Cheers, Mark. Bye

16:43

bye. Bye. Thanks for listening

16:45

to beyond a reasonable doubt.

16:48

Stay tuned for more bonus

16:50

episodes coming soon.