Episode Transcript
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0:00
Hey, rebel leaders. As you can probably tell, I'm
0:02
not Virgie, but you have heard from me before.
0:04
I'm doctor Laurie Santos. I teach a course
0:07
at Yale on the psychology of happiness, and I'm
0:09
an expert on human thinking and decision making.
0:12
I joined Virgie last year for a conversation
0:14
about harmful happiness myths like the idea
0:16
that there's a perfect body out there just for you,
0:18
the kind that contribute to diet culture. If
0:21
you haven't heard that episode yet, you should be sure
0:23
to check it out. Today, I'm joining
0:25
Rebel Eaters Club to share an episode from the
0:27
new season of my podcast, The Happiness
0:29
Lab. On The Happiness Lab, we explore
0:32
all the ways we get our happiness wrong and
0:34
what we can do to really feel better. I'll
0:37
walk you through the latest evidence based strategies
0:39
for improving your mental health, and I'll share
0:41
lots of practical advice for what can really
0:43
bring us more joy. In this episode,
0:45
I chat with author and psychotherapist Andrea
0:48
Walked about strategies we can use
0:50
to fight diet culture messaging and listen
0:52
to what our bodies really need. Now.
0:54
As a fan of this podcast and a rebel eater. You're
0:57
probably pretty committed to fighting diet culture,
0:59
but probably also aware that the start
1:01
of the new year is when we get bombarded with
1:03
ads and resolutions and TikTok
1:06
workouts and so many kinds of messages
1:08
that tell us what we should eat and how we should
1:10
look. And that's why I turned to Andrea.
1:12
She's an expert on how we could ignore all that
1:14
cultural messaging and listen a little
1:16
more effectively to the inner voice telling us
1:18
what our bodies really need. I love this
1:20
episode because Andrea shares lots of practical
1:23
strategies for how we can eat and move in
1:25
ways that are respectable and non restrictive.
1:27
She also talks a lot about how we can learn to
1:29
make peace with the bodies we have. I
1:32
think you'll really like this episode, and if you
1:34
do, you may want to check out other episodes
1:36
of the Happiness Lab. You can find them wherever
1:38
you get your podcasts. Okay, now
1:40
to the episode. The
1:44
first few weeks of January are peak New Year's
1:46
resolution time, and a lot of those resolutions
1:49
involved changing how our bodies look. According
1:52
to one global consumer survey, nearly half
1:54
of people who made New Year's resolutions last
1:56
year wanted to change what they ate and how
1:58
much they exercised, with more than four
2:01
and ten specifically saying that they wanted to
2:03
lose weight. And this time of
2:05
year, there are lots and lots of outside voices
2:07
that are ready to tell us exactly how we
2:09
should fix our bodies. If you look
2:11
at a magazine or your social media feed this
2:13
month, you'll probably get bombarded with
2:15
healthy eating ads claiming to have a scientific
2:18
solution to the perfect beach body, or
2:20
stories of people who successfully toned to their
2:22
butts with the latest bad diets. Every
2:25
January, we're surrounded by concepts like keto
2:28
and pigan and intermitt and fasting and
2:30
belly blasting, And even
2:32
if we know rationally that bellies probably
2:34
aren't supposed to be blasted, it's
2:36
really easy to get swept up by all those
2:38
deafening body shaming voices and
2:41
to think that we're going about something as fundamental
2:43
as feeding ourselves in all the wrong ways.
2:46
But if you think about it, all this body shame
2:49
is kind of weird because we don't
2:51
let outside voices tell us what to do when it comes
2:53
to navigating our other bodily needs, like
2:56
when to go to the bathroom, or whether or not it's
2:58
a good idea to put on a sweater if we're feeling old.
3:01
When it comes to these physical requirements,
3:03
we don't feel the need to look to social media suggestions
3:06
or magazine ads. We just listen
3:08
to our bodies in order to figure out what they
3:10
need to feel good. Our
3:13
guest Today, author's psychotherapist and
3:15
Happiness Loud regular Andrea Walkder,
3:17
argues that it's time to start thinking about feeding
3:20
ourselves in the same intuitive way that we
3:22
think about other bodily needs. Andrea
3:25
herself struggled for many years with disordered
3:27
eating. She dieted drastically,
3:29
restricting her intake of food, but also
3:31
rioted the phrase she uses to describe the
3:34
eating binges she went on when she wasn't dieting.
3:36
It was a rollercoaster ride that took her decades
3:39
to get off. Andrea
3:41
has seen that taking time to listen to your
3:43
wise, inner hunger voice can help you avoid
3:45
the shame that comes from outside diet advice.
3:48
In fact, she's loving proof that with some inner
3:50
work, it's possible to not even hear all
3:52
those loud diet voices. Truth
3:54
be told, I don't keep up
3:56
on those anymore. I used to know every
3:58
single diet that because I was like on them, And
4:01
now I don't even keep up because there's so many
4:03
I know a lot of people are doing the intermitt and fasting,
4:06
and a lot of people carrying scales to the
4:08
restaurant. I mean, there's just so many things. But so
4:10
many of us have been hypnotized
4:13
and programmed to think
4:15
that we need to be a certain body size
4:18
or weight, and that if we attain
4:20
that certain magical number
4:22
or size, we will be happy, we will
4:24
be healthy, and we will even be
4:26
more lovable. Never mind if that size
4:28
is even natural for us. But once
4:31
we're programmed and we buy
4:33
into the programming, which is hard not to buy
4:35
into it. But once we're programmed,
4:37
it causes us to cut ourselves
4:39
off from our natural hunger
4:42
and fullness and satisfaction and
4:44
cravings. We have this innate
4:46
knowing inside of us. We're not
4:48
born thinking foods are good or bad,
4:51
or body sizes are good or bad. We
4:53
get programmed. So, like you say, with the bathroom,
4:55
I have to go to the bathroom, I go. There's no shame
4:58
involved, there's no pressure about it.
5:00
Well, maybe bladder pressure if I'm cold, I
5:02
put on a sweater. It's not about my self esteem,
5:04
you know. But because there's so much
5:06
pressure and programming around
5:09
body sizes, perfectionism,
5:11
fat phobia, my okayness
5:13
being based on my size, then it causes
5:16
us to split ourselves off from this natural
5:19
mechanism that tells us when, what, and
5:21
how much to eat. It must be really frustrating
5:23
at the start of the new year, where you just see article
5:26
after article and you know, Google search after
5:28
Google search about all these new weird
5:30
diets when like you know, you've seen, the answer
5:32
is out there, it should be inside it
5:34
is. It's it's sad to me because
5:37
we're so seduced. And I would say to
5:39
everybody listening, be prepared to
5:41
be seduced by the new fad diets
5:43
the old fad diets. And you know,
5:45
we don't click on every ad that pops up
5:47
on our screens. We don't buy every item
5:50
that pops up. It's like to have the not
5:52
just courage, but the willingness to believe
5:55
that if diets worked,
5:57
they would have worked by now. The diet industry
5:59
is the only industry I know of that continues
6:02
to grow despite a huge failure
6:04
rate. But people still believe in them.
6:07
And so yes, when I hear people going
6:09
on some new diet and they're even like high in
6:11
the beginning from it, it's hard not
6:13
to intervene. But I only intervened
6:15
with people who come to me for intervening,
6:18
don't go out and get them. So yeah, people
6:20
are so seduced by diets.
6:23
And I would say there's a very
6:25
small percentage of people that
6:28
they work for. I haven't met any of them, but I'm
6:30
guessing there might be a few. But for most
6:32
people, they cause obsession, they
6:35
cause feeling unwell and
6:37
malnourished, and then they cause riotous
6:40
rebellion, if not full blown eating disorders.
6:42
And you're talking about this in the abstract, but this
6:44
is something that you know personally, Like you were
6:47
under this spell a lot yourself, right, completely,
6:50
like in a trance from this spell
6:52
restricting, obsessing and or
6:54
binging. I was caught in it for
6:56
decades. And what was that like for your
6:59
psychology? Right? Because it's one thing to kind of it's
7:01
stressful for how you eat, but it's another
7:03
thing because it really affects your flourishing too. It
7:05
affects everything. It affected my
7:07
thinking. I was so focused on
7:10
body size and food, not only mine,
7:12
but others comparing and worrying
7:14
about it, stressing about what I was going
7:16
to eat or not eat, and then of course being
7:18
so unsatisfied and hungry that I
7:20
was out of control so often. So I
7:23
call it the diet riot roller coaster. And
7:25
I was riding that ride
7:27
for a long long time. And so,
7:30
what was your turning point? Because this this idea
7:32
of turning to the internal signals we have
7:34
when it comes to food. You know, it can be really
7:36
scary. You know, how did you find your
7:39
way back to your own inner food voice. Well,
7:41
I struggle for a really long time
7:44
with an eating disorder. Some people have lesser
7:46
severe disordered eating. And I'd gotten
7:48
help for a really long time on those
7:50
issues, and I've made a lot of progress, but
7:52
I still had that leftover
7:56
diet mentality and body dissatisfaction.
7:58
And there was just this moment I'll never
8:01
forget it. There was this moment where
8:03
I decided I wanted
8:05
peace of mind and wellness
8:07
more than I wanted to be a certain number
8:09
or a certain size. I was so
8:12
tired of restrictive eating
8:14
and chaotic eating, and I
8:16
took this vow with myself it
8:19
was like, Andrea, do you take Andrea? I took
8:21
this vow with myself that when
8:23
I approach a food choice, whether it's
8:25
walking into the kitchen, opening the refrigerator,
8:28
opening a menu at a restaurant, I
8:30
am going to tune into the part of
8:32
me that is wise and loving
8:35
and just that knows. And prior
8:37
to that vow, I had like a
8:39
committee going every time I approached a food
8:41
choice. Is that the dieter or should I eat that? Is
8:44
that the rioter? Is? Is that over feelings?
8:46
It was just like this whole big deal. Once
8:48
I was trying to heal these parts
8:51
of myself, but once I had this moment,
8:53
it was like, I'm just going straight to the love. I'm
8:55
just tired of the battle, and I'll
8:57
never forget it. I went to the store for the
8:59
first time in my adult life, and I just
9:01
bought what sounded good to me. I went
9:04
home and it was the first meal I can remember
9:06
that I ate a non restrictive,
9:09
delicious, nutritious meal, and
9:11
I was totally satisfied.
9:14
I mean, that sounds amazing, right to kind
9:16
of get off this roller coaster. But I
9:18
think you know, for many of us, and you know even for
9:20
you back in the day, Like I think, it's really scary because
9:22
there's so much information out there telling us,
9:25
hey, this is the right way to eat or
9:27
that's a bad way to eat. You know that this is
9:29
so out there in the culture. It was scary
9:32
because I had only known two modes.
9:34
I had only known, like caged animal
9:36
around food or animal breaking out
9:38
of the cage. I really didn't have any reason to trust
9:40
myself because I hadn't been very
9:42
trustworthy with food. But I just
9:45
knew, and I kept reminding
9:47
myself that I wanted peace of mind,
9:49
and I didn't know what would happen to my body
9:52
if I let go of that crazy roller
9:54
coaster restricting and obsessing
9:56
and binging. But I just decided
9:59
I was willing to find out and willing
10:01
to be kind to myself. You
10:04
know, you engage in this process after a
10:06
lot of recovery work. But these days this practice
10:09
has become a little bit more popular in
10:11
the field. Talk about this idea
10:13
of intuitive eating. Yeah, intuitive
10:15
eating is it's like a paradigm.
10:18
It's a way of approaching wellness
10:20
and food choices
10:23
and taking care of yourself that
10:25
really encourages going inside
10:28
for your cues rather than outside
10:30
from all the rules, and it really
10:32
is a commitment. It's quite adover
10:34
for people that are used to going outside to
10:37
get their ideas of how to eat, how to move,
10:39
what to feel. It originated
10:42
with these two authors that are dietitians
10:44
and they wrote the book Intuitive Eating
10:46
in the nineties and it's still quite applicable
10:49
today. We need it more than ever. So it's
10:51
really about giving yourself permission,
10:54
but also being kind to yourself and
10:57
feeding Rather the old paradigm has been
10:59
that we're told what we're supposed to
11:01
look like, and then we try to eat an
11:03
exercise in a way that makes us look
11:05
that way. But this paradigm is
11:08
about feeding yourself and treating
11:10
yourself respectfully and allowing
11:12
your body to unfold into the body
11:14
that nature intended for you. I mean,
11:16
it sounds in some ways so simple,
11:19
but you know it's it's so counterintuitive
11:21
given so many of the other outside forces.
11:23
I think, you know, another paradigm that's really
11:26
connected to the intuitive eating approach is also
11:28
this approach that's known as health at Every Size.
11:30
You know what's that and how is it related to this idea
11:33
of intuitive eating? Health at Every Size?
11:35
Or they call it HAZE for short, is a
11:38
long needed movement to end weight
11:40
discrimination and to help
11:43
people shift the assumption that
11:45
all fat people are unhealthy.
11:48
It's just simply not true. And both
11:50
intuitive eating and health at every
11:52
Size promote practicing
11:54
self care, self respect, feeding
11:57
yourself non restrictively and respectfully
12:00
for the sake of well being, rather than
12:02
for the sake of trying to be a certain size
12:04
that might not even be meant for you. You know,
12:06
you engage in this process after, you
12:08
know, a lot of recovery work for eating and things
12:11
like that. But these days this practice has become
12:13
a little bit more popular in the field,
12:15
right and you know, so talk about this idea
12:17
of intuitive eating like a little bit
12:19
of the history of this kind of program.
12:22
In practice, it's about
12:24
becoming aware of diet
12:27
mentality, being willing to acknowledge
12:30
or even consider that diets don't
12:32
work, that they're ineffective. If they
12:35
worked, you would have been happily
12:37
or after your first one, and I'm guessing
12:39
most listeners have been on more than one. Increasing
12:42
your awareness of your
12:44
body's needs, just like you're aware
12:46
when you're thirsty gold have to go to the bathroom.
12:49
Starting to get to know when am I hungry?
12:52
What are those signals? What sounds
12:54
delicious to me? What does my body
12:56
need tuning into your body's signals
12:58
around movement instead, I should
13:01
exercise or I'm not getting off the
13:03
couch? What does my body want
13:05
to do? And it takes a while to kind
13:07
of peel off the layers, you
13:09
know, and and get through the brambles
13:12
of diet mentality to really
13:14
hear that voice. It's it's a soft
13:17
voice inside this knowing, loving
13:19
wisdom, and these loud voices
13:21
of diet mentality, body hatred,
13:24
exercise rules can sometimes
13:26
often sometimes slash all
13:28
the time, drown out. That's soft
13:31
inner knowing. Another problem with hearing those soft
13:33
inner voices is that we have to actually be
13:35
paying attention to them in our lives, right
13:37
And I feel like there's there's the noise of all these
13:40
external signals of what we should be eating, and you
13:42
know, our own inner diet mentality, but
13:44
there's also just like the noise of our lives,
13:46
you know, Like you know, there's probably some days that I don't
13:49
notice I'm hungry because I'm like running
13:51
around and it sometimes it just feels easier
13:53
to eat by the clock or make a rule
13:55
about what I'm going to eat because it's it's hard in
13:57
a busy lifestyle to really pay attention to
13:59
what your body needs. I mean, is this something that
14:01
a lot of people who start intuitive eating seem to
14:03
go through. Absolutely, it's
14:05
like a symbol. If you're struggling
14:07
with feeding yourself or paying attention to yourself,
14:10
look at your whole life, not just the food.
14:12
Food issues are about so many more things,
14:14
because this is really a holistic
14:17
approach. So it's almost like
14:19
the body is the child, and
14:22
the wise mind and the respectful
14:24
actions are the parents. And so yes,
14:27
if we're busy, if we're lost on screens,
14:29
if we're not paying attention, if
14:31
we're overworked, how can we
14:33
take care of ourselves? But I would think
14:36
most people, if you have a child with a super
14:38
busy day school, after schools,
14:40
things and sports, you would
14:42
pack that child food. So it's being willing
14:45
to take that time for ourselves. And
14:47
so let's kind of go even deeper
14:49
because I think, you know, as we start to think about intuitive
14:52
eating, I think a lot of people have even
14:54
more specific questions about you know, what are
14:56
the kinds of things that you know count as part
14:58
of intuitive eating and not so many
15:00
people, for example, think about
15:02
the possibility of you know, a particular way
15:04
of eating. You know, let's say you're vegetarian or vegan,
15:07
or let's say you want to give up a particular food
15:09
group, Like can that be done in the
15:11
context of intuitive eating or is that always
15:14
restrictive? No? I definitely
15:16
think it depends on the motives. If
15:19
somebody is cutting out a certain
15:21
food because ethically that's important
15:23
to them, or because their body has an allergic
15:26
response, it doesn't they don't feel well when they
15:28
eat that food, it's respectful not
15:30
to eat that food. But if somebody's cutting
15:32
out of food because they think
15:34
it's too high in calories or fat, or
15:36
they think it's not going to make them get to their goals,
15:39
then it's very likely to cause
15:42
obsession and preoccupation about that food
15:44
and or rebellious eating on
15:46
that food or every other possible food
15:49
around that food. What about other forms
15:51
of kind of paying attention external
15:53
cues, right, you know, like for example, like is
15:55
weighing yourself, you know, consistent with intuitive
15:58
eating? Is kind of you know, tracking other kinds
16:00
of nutritional values, you know, is that consistent
16:02
with intuitive eating? You know, I imagine
16:04
it's kind of the same thing I'm hearing. It might be
16:06
like the motivation, the reasons why
16:09
you're doing those kinds of tracking, and the
16:11
effects they have. So
16:13
if someone struggles with their eating
16:15
and their body image, weighing is
16:17
husually not helpful and actually often
16:20
triggering, because intuitive eating
16:22
is about getting your answers from inside.
16:25
Am I hungry? Am I
16:27
tired? What do I need? Do I need
16:29
fresh air? Do I want a sandwich? Do I want
16:31
to rest? And a scale can't tell
16:33
us that, and if anything, oftentimes
16:36
people will get triggered by the number and it will
16:38
lead them to restrict and or rebel
16:40
from the feelings. So I
16:42
think for someone who has body
16:45
image issues and or disordered
16:47
eating or an eating disorder, I don't recommend
16:49
scales, if anything, write down on a
16:51
piece of paper, listen to your body,
16:54
sweetheart, or and then tape it on top
16:56
of the scale. Those apps, those tracking
16:58
apps, My response would be similar that if
17:00
someone doesn't have issues or a
17:02
history of body shame, dieting,
17:05
riotous eating, those
17:07
tracking apps can be fun.
17:10
My husband has one and he enjoys,
17:12
you know, looking at his steps or whatever.
17:14
The heap tracks. I don't know, But
17:17
an app can't tell me when I want to take a walk
17:19
or when I want to lay down. That's up
17:21
to me to know. So it really depends
17:23
on what the app
17:26
or the group or the scale what
17:28
they're aligned with. And the
17:30
values here are about self care,
17:33
not having a certain food that you should or
17:35
shouldn't eat unless it's a loving motive,
17:37
and not having a certain size that you should
17:40
or shouldn't be. And so when we think about
17:42
some of the benefits that come from
17:44
eating this way, you know, it's a different kind
17:46
of benefit than we usually think about
17:48
with this diet mentality. Right, you know a lot
17:50
of these you know, Keto, paleo,
17:53
you know, whatever the new thing is, like,
17:55
the benefit that comes from that is supposed to be
17:57
a certain body size, you know, a certain number on the
17:59
scale. You know, Intuitive eating doesn't
18:01
come with that benefit. What are the benefits
18:03
that come from eating this way? Yeah, that's a
18:05
good question. There are a lot of benefits,
18:08
and the authors of intuitive Eating have
18:11
hundreds of studies on their website. I'm
18:13
not filly hated with them, but if somebody cares to
18:15
look into that, benefits are increased
18:18
energy and clarity. Obviously, if you're
18:20
not starving yourself or stuffing yourself regularly,
18:22
decrease in disordered eating and
18:25
eating disorders, improved well
18:27
being, improved happiness, improved
18:30
cholesterol levels. There's really
18:32
a lot of benefits that have been shown
18:34
for people who intuitively ate for
18:36
an ongoing basis. I'm glad you mentioned
18:38
this idea of, you know, things like reduce cholesterol
18:41
too, because I think, you know, when you're so used
18:43
to the diet mentality, you assume that if
18:45
you just ate what you wanted to eat,
18:47
it would lead to these negative consequences
18:50
in terms of your health. I mean, I think obviously, you know,
18:52
people think in terms of the negative consequences
18:54
for their body weight and the particular body weight
18:56
they might be aspiring to be, or something like
18:58
that. I think we also assume that if we
19:00
just let ourselves eat the way we'd want
19:02
to eat, you know, it'd be hot fudge Sundays,
19:05
you know, like every day, and you know, you know, ruin
19:07
your cholesterol. You know your numbers would go
19:09
go badly. But but that's not actually what people
19:11
see when they commit to eating with love
19:14
for themselves and really paying careful attention
19:16
to what this inner voice is saying right
19:18
over time, because sometimes
19:21
there's that rebellious response.
19:24
If someone's been dieting for years
19:27
and now they're going to give themselves permission to
19:29
eat, there can be this you
19:31
know, riotous
19:33
reacting. But to me personally,
19:36
that wasn't loving either. And when I
19:38
was in my early years of healing, I
19:41
even read books and worked
19:43
with people that said, well, in order
19:45
to get over this diet riot mentality, you
19:47
have to just buy all your forbidden foods,
19:50
load up your house, and eat as
19:52
much of them as you want to get sick of them.
19:55
And that just that didn't work for me. I
19:57
ate till I got sick from them, not of them,
20:00
and so that was not my path. My path was
20:02
just to find what was loving
20:04
and respectful and to deal with the unmet
20:06
needs and underlying issues that dare
20:09
I say, fed into my eating
20:11
issues. So far,
20:13
we've heard the intuitive eating. This practice
20:15
of listening to what our bodies really need comes
20:17
with a host of benefits for our bodies
20:20
and physical health, but also for our happiness
20:22
levels. But intuitive eating
20:24
can also be tough to do, at least at first.
20:27
So when we get back from the break, we'll talk more
20:29
about specific strategies we can use
20:31
to stop focusing on inches or calories
20:33
or pounds and move towards a more intuitive
20:36
relationship with food. The Happiness
20:38
Lab will be right back. Psychotherapist
20:51
author and insight Time or app teacher Andrea
20:53
Walkder has helped thousands of students find
20:56
their wise, inner eating voice. So
20:58
I was interested in what she recommends for beginners.
21:00
What are the first steps we should take when it comes
21:03
to developing a more intuitive relationship
21:05
with food. Well, one of the first things that
21:07
I do in my course is really try to diminish
21:09
shame, because if somebody has
21:11
a problematic relationship with food
21:14
and their body, they usually feel ashamed
21:16
about it. So to try to help people
21:18
see that they're not bad,
21:21
that their body and they're eating are
21:23
the kind of the innocent recipients
21:26
of faulty and insane programming,
21:29
because then people eat over the shame and they restrict
21:31
over the shame, and so that's to
21:33
me, one of the first steps is really seeing
21:35
that we've been duped and we've been
21:37
taught that there's a certain body size
21:40
that's okay and acceptable and that
21:42
will bring you happily ever after this,
21:44
and it's not true. Then we
21:47
dive into how to deal with your feelings,
21:49
how to identify your feelings, how
21:51
to become aware of your thoughts,
21:53
and if they're not kind, to
21:55
consider challenging them, upgrading
21:58
them. We update our phones all the time,
22:00
updating our thinking. And it's really all
22:02
about awareness, right, I mean, that's the name
22:04
of the game. And the willingness, Like I took
22:06
that vow back then, I wanted peace
22:09
of mind and wellness more
22:11
than I wanted to try to control my body. So
22:13
for people to continually look
22:15
at their values. Is this working for me
22:18
spending so much time and energy
22:20
trying to control my eating and my body size
22:22
and or rebelling from the control, or
22:24
do I want to find another way? It does
22:27
take work, it does take practice, it does
22:29
take patience, but it's a whole,
22:31
huge doover from what most
22:33
people are doing. And so let's say you want
22:36
to engage with this practice of intuitive eating,
22:38
but you're like not really feeling that intuitive
22:40
or you know, like you know, you're little worried,
22:43
you're on the baby steps you know to doing it. You
22:45
know, you sit down at a restaurant, right, you know,
22:47
look at a menu, you know, any tips
22:49
for what to listen to to kind of make that choice.
22:52
Well, I for myself when I was in
22:54
the trenches, I would ask myself these questions.
22:56
I think we did a whole podcast on one of them. I
22:58
love these questions because it is so hard
23:01
when you're immersed in diet mentality, it
23:03
kind of it can drown out that inner knowing.
23:05
So I found when I would ask
23:07
myself, how would I feed someone
23:10
I love who doesn't diet or riot?
23:12
Because if you're thinking of feeding someone else, there's
23:14
not the shame there. There's just kind of wisdom
23:16
and oh, I would feed them this or this, or I know
23:19
they love this or they like this. So how
23:21
would you feed someone else you
23:23
love who doesn't diet or riot? What
23:26
feels the most loving for your body
23:28
right now? It feels the most respectful for your
23:30
body right now. It's not respectful
23:32
to restrict and eat things you don't
23:34
even like, and it's not respectful
23:36
to stuff ourselves. It's just to tune
23:39
into the kind voice inside.
23:41
I also like to help
23:43
people distinguish between
23:45
the different internal voices that might be going
23:48
on if they're sitting at a restaurant. But know
23:50
that if you keep practicing it won't be
23:52
this much work. It gets more natural. So
23:55
for most people there's an inner diet
23:57
or voice, I should eat that, I should order
24:00
that. Oh I shouldn't have that. That's bad. Oh
24:02
my friend is having that. I shouldn't have that inner
24:05
dieter. And then for a
24:07
lot of people there's the riot or from
24:09
the dieter, and that's you know, I want twenty
24:12
or I want it all, or forget it. I'll have
24:14
it when all, when I get home. And then there's
24:16
this body wisdom, so
24:18
to begin to ask themselves, try
24:21
to connect with the different parts till
24:23
you get to what feels loving, respectful,
24:25
non restrictive, delicious, What does
24:28
my body truly want? And
24:30
I think the act of doing that requires a
24:32
certain kind of mindful attention
24:35
in these moments of decision. Right, my
24:37
guess is that you're not going to get to that wise
24:40
inner voice that can really tell you what you want
24:42
if you're checking your email while you're
24:44
pulling up the menu or showing up to this
24:46
meal, like in a completely frantic space
24:48
like it takes a lot of intention
24:51
and attention to kind of figure
24:53
this out, as does everything. I mean, if we
24:55
wanted to learn French. We wouldn't just go to class
24:57
and be on our phones and expect to be fluent into
25:00
lessons. Right, anything we want to learn, it
25:02
requires desire to learn
25:04
it the solution of what to learn, what
25:06
to do instead of what we've been doing, and practice,
25:09
practice, practice and patience.
25:12
Of course, when you say that, it makes absolute sense,
25:14
like this is how we do anything important in life.
25:16
But I think that's the contrast from what our culture
25:18
is telling us. You know, our culture is telling us
25:20
like, oh, if you just do intermittent fasting, everything
25:23
will be perfect, or just follow Quito, Like,
25:26
is there a sense in which people can get worried
25:28
about intuitive eating because it is
25:30
committing to this long process
25:32
and this mindful process of paying attention.
25:34
It's not a quick fix in the way that other
25:37
kinds of external plans seem to be. That's
25:40
true, And I would say, look at your
25:42
history. If diets were effective
25:44
the first or maybe even second, I'll be
25:46
generous, the second or diet
25:48
you went on would have done the
25:50
trick. You'd be at the body size that
25:53
you think would make you happy, You'd feel great,
25:55
You're eating would be pleasurable and
25:57
nourishing, and not a big problem, you'd
26:00
be happy with your body. It's like the
26:02
diets promise us all of these
26:04
things, and people still believe them because
26:06
they're so seductive, and they
26:09
don't come true, they don't pan out. So it's questioning
26:11
the diet rather than yourself.
26:15
Another challenge people face is that if you've
26:17
really been on this kind of diet mentality,
26:19
diet right roller coaster for a long time, it
26:22
can be hard to start right. I think
26:24
there's this real worry that, you know, if
26:27
you really listen to what you wanted, you
26:29
would be out of control, right, you
26:31
know, And so how do you kind of overcome this
26:33
sort of shame and guilt that comes up,
26:36
especially for people who've had a real struggle
26:39
with eating history for a long time. Well,
26:41
I think it's being willing to consider
26:43
that even though you're eating has
26:45
been problematic, it's not the
26:48
problem, and that the problems
26:50
are deeper, and so to
26:53
be willing to question
26:55
the programming around body
26:58
sizes, perfection eating,
27:01
perfectionistic looks, fat
27:03
phobia, diet mentality,
27:06
to begin to question those programs
27:09
the same way we question other social
27:11
issues. We take a stand against social issues
27:13
all the time, or for social issues
27:15
all the time. So what's happened
27:17
for so many people is they get bombarded
27:20
with the diet mentality and body
27:22
perfectionism and fat phobia,
27:25
and then they kind of side with the programming
27:27
and turn against their poor bodies. But what
27:29
we're talking about here is siding with your
27:31
body and say no to those programs
27:34
and decide that you want more peace. It
27:37
will take time. It will take work. So
27:39
is dieting and rioting. I mean that that takes time too.
27:42
Hating your body, that takes a lot of time. And
27:44
then I think another word that people have when they hear
27:46
about intuitive eating. I've heard friends of mine
27:48
mentioned this is like, especially
27:50
if you have a history of diets,
27:53
you know, it can feel easy to maybe
27:55
turn intuitive eating into its own
27:57
diet, right like now I must eat intuitive,
27:59
I must find inner voice. And I mean, do
28:01
you see that with some of your students, Like how
28:03
do you prevent intuitive eating from becoming
28:06
just another thing that we should
28:08
be doing in our minds? I definitely
28:11
see that, and we talk about that in the course classroom.
28:14
Often if someone has been
28:16
dieting or and or have diet mentality,
28:18
you don't have to be on a diet by the way to
28:20
have diet mentality. It's like I say, in
28:23
action or just reacting to food
28:25
as good or bad. So that
28:27
diet mentality is so tricky
28:29
and sticky, It's like it can be so
28:31
subtle and come into even this new way
28:34
of being with food. So I say to people,
28:36
just keep an eye out for it. Keep an eye out
28:38
for that perfectionism. I blew
28:41
it. I have to start all over. I shouldn't
28:43
have that, I should be a certain size,
28:45
Just to kind of keep an eye out for the diet mentality
28:48
statements that feel familiar and
28:50
know that when you're learning something new, of
28:53
course, it's challenging at first. It takes
28:55
practice, and just to keep renewing
28:58
your vows that we want
29:00
peace here if somebody wants that. That's the
29:02
only reason someone comes to my course is because they're
29:05
tired of battling with food and their
29:07
body. So renewing that commitment
29:09
again and again. Oh that's the reason
29:11
I'm here, not to control my weight
29:14
and not to continue on
29:16
this diet track. And I think it sounds
29:18
like also that that takes a lot of inner
29:20
listening, right. You need to notice the like
29:22
subtle judginess that's there or
29:25
the subtle riotiness when you've kind of
29:27
given yourself permission and I think
29:29
in some sense, like you know, notice it without
29:31
judgment, right, without then keeping more shame
29:33
onto yourself, because that's not going to help the process,
29:35
right, beating yourself up? About beating yourself up?
29:37
Yeah, not helpful? Yeah, absolutely
29:40
noticing being aware And it doesn't have to
29:42
be perfect. Intuitive eating diets
29:44
are about perfection. This is like not about
29:46
perfection. It's just about continuing
29:49
to be willing to look
29:51
inside, to be awake.
29:54
We can't really learn anything if we're not awake.
29:56
So it does definitely take being
29:58
aware and being willing and renewing
30:01
your commitment to why you're doing this. You've
30:03
been using these practices for a long time and you've
30:05
seen the benefits you know, in your own students,
30:08
like you know, how can this really change
30:10
our relationship with food in our bodies?
30:13
It brings freedom. There is
30:15
so much more free time if you're
30:17
not obsessing on your food or your body. It brings
30:19
a feeling of wellness. It doesn't mean that we don't
30:21
struggle with other things or get sick from other
30:24
reasons, but it brings
30:26
this sense of liberation that there's nothing
30:28
to memorize, there's nothing to calculate.
30:31
I remember, I just would have to work so hard
30:33
to kind of keep track of what I ate and how
30:35
much should I be eating now? And what time
30:37
is it now. It's just the answers
30:39
are inside. It's so simple. It's just like simple,
30:42
but not easy. One place inside,
30:44
same place. I know if I'm thirsty or hungry
30:46
or tired or have to go to the bathroom. But
30:48
it does take a lot of unlearning. So
30:51
yes, it is so liberating and freeing.
30:53
And that's what I hear from people often. I hear
30:55
from people that have been dieting and rioting
30:58
for decades and now
31:00
they're feeling freer, and
31:02
then a lot of grief comes up, like
31:05
that they wasted so much time
31:07
obsessing on food and their body
31:10
and to just have some freedom
31:12
where you tune inside, you eat what you
31:14
and your body love, and like you
31:16
stop when you're satisfied and comfortably
31:19
full, and you deal with your feelings
31:21
in other ways. And it's kind of ironic
31:24
because I feel like, you know, people when they go
31:26
into the diet mentality, you know
31:28
they're willing to learn, you know, some elaborate
31:31
point system. They're willing to learn. You know,
31:33
how many carbs like you know, slice
31:35
of pepperoni has they're willing to learn and
31:37
put lots of time into some new workout. You
31:40
know. Intuitive eating kind of is the same,
31:42
like if you just put in the time and listen,
31:44
you'll get this benefit that won't
31:47
have the blowback later one hundred
31:49
percent? And how much I wait, and how many fat rams
31:51
were in a you know cookie? And what? Yeah,
31:53
exactly the other day, I had
31:55
bought some cookies a couple of weeks
31:58
ago from a bakery that my husband and I
32:00
love, and I ate a few when I got
32:02
home, and then I put them in a tough aware, and
32:06
about a week or so later, he said, I'm
32:09
starting to finish up these cookies. Do you
32:11
want to get in on any before they're gone? And
32:13
I had completely forgotten about them,
32:15
and I thought, there you go. I mean,
32:18
I would have been possessed by
32:20
them eating them all. On the way home, told myself,
32:22
I can't have any cookies. And I had
32:24
a very difficult relationship in the
32:26
past, but just that I could forget
32:28
about them, enjoy them when I had them, and
32:30
then was not possessed by them, I say
32:33
no more. I think part of it is that we get really seduced
32:36
by, you know, the hope of a
32:38
new diet, and you know, maybe in some cases
32:40
even the kind of you know, veneer of science that
32:42
comes with some of these diets that are out there. But
32:44
I think there's also like a deep skepticism
32:47
of our own inner voice. You know. I've
32:49
heard people who hear about intuitive eating
32:51
will say, yeah, other people have
32:53
an inner voice when it comes to food, but not me,
32:56
Like I'm always going to be this ravenous
32:58
pit that's riotous all the time time. I
33:00
mean, do you get that in your students at people who just
33:02
simply don't trust that the inner voice is in
33:04
there that they'll find it right.
33:07
But we've been brainwashed
33:09
to believe that a certain body size will
33:11
bring us happiness, health and forever
33:13
afterness of everything, And so that
33:16
brainwashing is thick. So it takes
33:18
a lot of washing our brains of
33:20
those beliefs, those programs,
33:22
they're so deep for so
33:25
many people because if you look at it,
33:27
well, if someone says to themselves, I've been dieting
33:29
on January first for the last however
33:32
many years, and then it
33:34
ends up I end up failing
33:36
the diet thinking I'm the failure. I
33:39
end up blowing it, I end up rebelliously
33:42
eating, I end up hating myself. How
33:44
many years in a row have I done that? And now I'm going
33:46
to try it again. But it's
33:48
not your fault. The diet industry,
33:50
the fitness industry, the media,
33:52
they got us right where they want us, So
33:55
it's really taking a stand against
33:57
those messages instead of taking a stand
33:59
against your poor body. I
34:01
hope all my listeners can start following Andrea's
34:03
advice and commit to shutting out
34:05
those outside diet voices and listening
34:07
to what your body truly needs in the new year. And
34:10
if you want to learn more, you should check out some
34:12
of Andrea's courses on the insight timer app,
34:15
including my favorite, making Peace with
34:17
the Body You Live in. Next
34:19
week, we'll tackle ways to listen to another quiet
34:22
voice that often gets drowned out in the midst
34:24
of all our new year's plans and goals. It's
34:27
the voice that tells us that we'd probably feel better
34:29
if we could be a little less critical of ourselves.
34:32
We'll meet a psychologist who thinks we should commit
34:34
to a new workout, one that exercises
34:36
are positive self talk muscles, and
34:38
that doing so can help us be a little kinder
34:40
to ourselves in the New Year. We'll
34:43
see just how to do that in the next special
34:45
New Year's Season episode of The Happiness Lab
34:47
with Me Doctor Laurie Sanders. The
34:54
Happiness Lab is co written by Ryan Dilley
34:56
and is produced by Ryan Dilley and Courtney
34:58
Guerino. The show was mastered by
35:00
Evan Viola and our original music was
35:03
composed by Zachary Silver. Special
35:05
thanks to Shane Beard, Greta Kone, Nicole
35:07
Morano, Morgan Ratner, Maggie Taylor,
35:10
Jacob Weisberg, my agent, Ben Davis,
35:12
and the rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness
35:14
Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and
35:16
by Me, Doctor Laurie Santos.
35:25
That was a preview of The Happiness Lab hosted
35:27
by Me Doctor Laurie Santos. You can
35:29
find other episodes of The Happiness Lab wherever
35:31
you get your podcasts.
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