0:00

Two weeks to 18

0:03

year olds committing acts of mass

0:05

murder in the United to of parent

0:08

a murdering black

0:10

people at a grocery store murdering

0:12

children at an elementary school in

0:15

Buffalo. We know the shooter

0:17

was radicalized by online

0:19

extremism. The other one, we

0:21

don't know yet. He was definitely posting online

0:23

about what he was to do at this

0:25

school before he went to did exactly

0:28

what he said, he would in Uvalde Texas.

0:30

The internet is treacherous

0:32

enough for adults, but the teams we

0:34

wanted to figure out how parents can

0:36

stop their kids from getting

0:38

radicalized online and

0:40

we found a mom who try first

0:43

time. I heard I

0:48

need to have

0:50

to have a more faith. Your kids

0:53

aren't being radicalized

0:55

online coming up on

0:57

today explained.

1:06

today explained i'm sean ronnie wrote i don't

1:09

have any kids but a know lot you do and

1:11

when i'm around my friends or family members

1:13

who have kids with smartphones i

1:16

always ask what boundaries

1:18

a setting they're sometimes i'm really

1:20

impressed by the answer sometimes i'm petrified

1:22

because some parents i've spoken to

1:25

aren't doing much at all their placing a whole

1:27

lot faith in they're kids to

1:29

do the right thing i think much

1:31

about kids like buying falling

1:34

into any kind of dangerous ideology

1:37

because i knew how i had raised my children

1:39

this joanna schroeder she's not a friend

1:41

of mine or family member but she's a mom

1:43

of three kids who's thought a lot

1:45

more about this than most parents

1:47

we had very consciously brought

1:50

them up to believe in equality

1:52

and justice and what

1:54

i did factor into that was the

1:57

effect social media and as

1:59

i grew

2:00

and how the algorithms work got

2:02

more and more concerned about what my kids might

2:04

see online think if you're consuming

2:06

any type of media with you're children and you're not

2:08

taking the opportunity to talk about

2:11

anything from critical lens

2:13

you're missing out

2:14

joanna is also writer she focuses

2:16

on gender and parenting issues

2:19

When they got older and started using

2:21

social media or play more

2:23

advanced games, and

2:25

being able to Google and watch YouTube

2:27

videos. I

2:30

knew that was what their exposure would be. Like I

2:32

am a woman writing online. controversial

2:34

topics and i've seen

2:36

everything you can see and heard everything

2:39

you can hear and so we did have sort have

2:41

preemptive conversations

2:44

what didn't expect was

2:46

the sneaky ways and which

2:48

means and jokes

2:52

quote unquote jokes can

2:55

sneak to our

2:57

consciousness and affect ideology

3:00

that's what didn't really expect

3:05

and this concern became

3:07

really amplified when

3:09

i looked over the shoulder of one of

3:11

my kids was probably thirteen

3:14

or fourteen at the time his

3:16

scrawled instagram explore

3:19

page and i saw men fly

3:21

about had hitler

3:24

he was basically liking or

3:26

hating everything that passed and

3:29

i slow down what

3:31

what is a and it was it was

3:33

traditional kind of mean

3:36

format meaning that they used same

3:39

image same type face with

3:41

different messages on it on hitler

3:43

sitting kind of and amphitheatre a

3:45

people on many type and

3:47

normally that image is used to

3:50

kind create a fantasy where

3:52

somebody could kill hitler and

3:54

have ended the war and

3:57

saved so many guide

4:00

when i read the concert on the mail

4:03

is happening off a

4:06

he

4:07

he saw this mean he didn't read it

4:09

you liked to you read

4:11

it you didn't like it what

4:14

do next yeah and what

4:16

making liked i just made he clicked he

4:18

didn't register any sort of feelings about it

4:20

he just liked with his hand

4:23

just to just he couldn't have read it because

4:26

fast mean if you watch thirteen year old scrolls

4:28

therefore you page or their sore page like

4:31

scroll scroll scrolls and

4:33

they like like ,

4:35

very strange phenomenon and

4:38

so when i

4:41

i was like what think this so

4:44

i said okay let's read to want know what's

4:46

happening so this guide back here saying

4:48

hey a they're going to do this

4:50

attack this time against and nazis

4:53

and so that means that whoever created

4:55

this thinks it's funny

4:58

to

4:59

imply that it

5:01

would have been good or what would

5:03

have happened had hitler

5:05

not been defeated

5:08

and he was aghast he had no idea

5:10

a even once he read it

5:12

was just to little to subtle

5:15

for someone were age to really

5:18

understand what was happening especially

5:21

since they've seen that mean format

5:23

using that historical photo before it

5:25

was easy to assume it

5:27

have the same sort of message or

5:30

ethics behind to a

5:32

then i said i look through your

5:35

explore page and we just look through together

5:38

and i think the first thing

5:40

that was drawing to me

5:43

was probably actually the

5:46

sort anti woman content

5:48

in and the fact that

5:51

i knew that

5:53

he didn't recognize these

5:55

what what we would say is are dog whistles

5:58

their anti feminists are just overall

6:00

anti woman dog whistles and

6:03

, point i didn't see any sort

6:05

of racist content and

6:07

remember this isn't what my child shared

6:10

and wasn't what my child had liked

6:12

or hosted it was just what instagram

6:15

wanted him

6:16

the next did you clock the

6:18

accounts that were serving up this kind

6:20

of stuff what were the accounts

6:23

they're all just me it's not

6:25

like it was

6:26

storm front or something very

6:28

easily identifiable as some kind

6:30

nazi thing it's just me accounts

6:33

that are supposed to be funny and

6:36

i want make clear that think this think

6:38

this in every

6:41

teenage boys explore page

6:43

on instagram especially if he plays

6:45

video games because

6:48

their interest in video games

6:50

probably one of the key identifiers

6:53

that gets them targeted

6:54

for this content why do think that is

6:57

think because the people

6:59

who are quote unquote

7:02

recruiting we're trying to influence

7:04

were kids know that fact

7:07

people that are searching mind

7:09

craft

7:10

roadblocks those are teenagers

7:13

and those are teenagers who

7:15

may be more easy to influence

7:18

because they're doing things online by

7:20

themselves

7:21

and their parents think they're watching the very

7:24

innocuous and delightful dan tdm

7:26

on youtube

7:27

i been playing video games ever since of as

7:29

young and gaming is huge part my

7:31

life who am as a person i my career

7:34

i want to try sharing that passion with

7:36

my son and they're parents

7:38

don't realize somebody out

7:40

their knows their not being supervised

7:43

and

7:45

the woke left as activists

7:47

to talk about defunding the police

7:49

out a one side of their mouths while demanding

7:52

that the disarm the public

7:54

on the other side

7:56

and those that maybe they don't to

7:59

hundred extra

8:00

rulers that school modern

8:02

, treats man like trash

8:04

i posted mean the other day and in that

8:07

mean it was titanic and women

8:09

titanic who did they take did they

8:11

take everyone equally did take the youngest

8:14

no it was women children and

8:16

women stayed behind and to die

8:18

yes so great being a man isn't it

8:21

this isn't even taking into account the fact that every

8:23

child was online twenty

8:25

, seven during during

8:28

before think it's only been

8:30

amplified since think they know

8:33

they this population

8:35

that is very

8:36

vulnerable and easy

8:40

and migration is real it's

8:43

happening and front of your face they

8:45

don't do this because they love and care for

8:47

old white people or birthrates they

8:49

do because hate us and want

8:51

replaced

8:55

in in that moment where you discover

8:58

this sort of creeping insidious

9:00

nature of say deeply

9:03

racist and white supremacist

9:05

means or even misogynistic ones that

9:07

were popping up randomly and your son's

9:09

feet and he was or unwittingly liking

9:12

them did you sort of have policy

9:14

overhaul and your household about what

9:16

your kids could do or how did you approach

9:20

we did not

9:22

and some people might think that's wrong a

9:25

first thing first did was say

9:27

boys come here we need to talk about this

9:29

and they thought they were in trouble they you're not

9:32

at at all but this is something

9:34

you need to know and i went through i

9:36

said so listen if you don't fully

9:38

understand it hurt it a

9:41

making me to don't

9:43

get it ask me because this is

9:45

racist and this is like this is pro

9:48

nazis and

9:50

if someone sees that you like this

9:52

parent think that you like nazis

9:55

and fact to eyes just got big

9:58

explained to the algorithm to them mean

10:00

even if you just stay on one mean

10:03

for a really long and or if you share

10:05

it privately instagram

10:07

says this what this guy likes in

10:09

sends you more so for that it

10:11

was real education and

10:14

, said also anybody follows you

10:16

can see what you've liked because

10:18

it it tells them when it comes up in their

10:20

explore page and that's

10:22

just not a mistake that you want have happen and

10:25

they heard that and basically

10:28

my feeling was if i all right instagrams

10:30

out first of i

10:32

don't know that they're really going to not

10:34

look at instagram

10:36

and i know a lot kids who were not allowed

10:38

to have instagram and had it

10:41

in some kind of hidden folder that their

10:43

moms didn't know how to get to and

10:45

allowed times those were kids who were posting

10:47

really troubling things hm

10:50

and so i'd felt like i'd rather be able

10:52

to look at myself when my kids

10:54

before they were thirteen i also

10:56

had their instagrams mirrored

10:59

on my phone which was really

11:01

important for their direct messages

11:04

because i to go

11:06

in every single by and

11:09

see who's deeming them even if it's

11:11

in

11:11

folders and delete it or

11:14

even what school drama if drama if my

11:16

kid be mean to somebody or something i be

11:18

like hey come here i

11:20

feel like this person's feelings what

11:22

you wrote

11:24

just hearing how much work you're

11:26

putting into this the first thing that occurs to

11:28

me that so many parents

11:30

probably just

11:32

can't find the time and if

11:34

they're choosing the path of least resistance

11:36

they're probably choosing to say hey be

11:39

careful instagram but have good time because i know how

11:41

much you want be on that platform but

11:43

doesn't take a lot time

11:45

it's just takes the ability to

11:48

acknowledge it's a problem

11:50

and have the conversation without saying

11:52

oh i think you're turning into a racist oh

11:54

i think you're becoming anti semitic or oh i

11:56

think you're dumb that you fell for this or any

11:58

of these awful things was that

12:01

are very tempting to say

12:03

when we see fact racist we

12:06

get mad and we should get

12:08

mad and that's the challenge

12:10

for parents that's the actual work

12:12

is going he's just a kid these

12:15

are adults trying to trick kits

12:18

and and then approaching it with

12:20

compassion and recognizing

12:23

that child's goodness inherent goodness

12:25

in order to draw them and to understanding

12:28

and being compassionate for other people

12:36

joanna schroeder is a mom who writes about gender

12:38

and parenting and wants parents to pay closer

12:40

attention to what their kids are doing

12:42

online we spoke after the buffalo

12:45

shooting but before the texas shooting

12:47

which is more of and indictment of this country's gun

12:49

policies anything else anyhow

12:52

asked her what she made of the buffalo

12:54

shooting considering how much she

12:57

thought about what kids

12:59

are exposed to online

13:00

totally candid and tell you that before i knew

13:03

what motivated have i knew what motivated

13:05

him you don't have to hear many

13:08

fact people were shot person

13:10

to know that this was about race a

13:12

this not a coincidence before i knew that he

13:14

drove all those miles to get there i

13:16

, it was a racist massacre when

13:19

i saw picture of kid picture of he

13:21

was radicalized online i left

13:23

room be wrong what i assume

13:25

right away that this was kid who

13:28

probably started hearing things

13:31

when he was involved was video games probably

13:33

started laughing at bigoted memes

13:36

and then just traveled down

13:39

traveled wormhole into know

13:42

the equivalent of a chan and

13:45

dark web and being totally

13:48

propagandist to and fed

13:50

a non stop stream of disinformation

13:54

i willing to leave room to be

13:56

surprised maybe his parents were

13:58

hood wearing clans what maybe

14:02

i didn't think

14:04

that was likely i had feeling that

14:06

this was probably a pretty typical kid

14:09

from a pretty typical community

14:12

who did of very dangerous

14:14

and this particular case what the shooter and buffalo video

14:16

games definitely played some role in

14:19

radicalisation in streaming the thing

14:21

live on twitch we've been talking about

14:23

this video game influence on kids and in

14:25

mass shootings forever what

14:27

most vicious games is called mortal

14:29

combat the

14:31

objective is

14:38

another method is decapitation the

14:42

does this just further make the

14:44

point there is some tangible

14:46

connection here video games

14:49

are not the problem

14:51

the unsupervised nature

14:53

of how kids use them

14:55

might be part problem and it

14:57

is hard to separate video games

14:59

from this because we've

15:01

seen a few stills and hopefully

15:03

none of us have had to watch the actual footage

15:06

and it looks like a first person shooter

15:08

and you're right he streamed it on twitch as of he

15:10

were streaming a game of minecraft

15:13

and statement says twitch has minecraft zero

15:15

tolerance policy against violence

15:17

and works swiftly to respond

15:20

it says we are taking all appropriate action

15:22

including moderating for any account

15:24

we broadcasting this content but

15:26

in light of what happened and buffalo it seems

15:29

like this response is no longer

15:31

enough

15:32

how are parents supposed to know when

15:35

it's tipping over when it's not just their kids

15:38

looking at a mean that's problematic

15:40

and it's maybe our kid is trying

15:42

to find a gun like is it just this constant

15:45

babysitting which most parents don't have time

15:47

for when when do parents step

15:49

in and say we need to get you

15:51

you have to prepare them early if your

15:53

kids already eighteen and you haven't prepared them you

15:55

have prepare them now to see racist

15:58

media and to for to and

16:00

to debunk it most

16:02

important making is almost

16:05

no parent listening to this right now

16:07

no grandparent no teacher is going to

16:09

have a child that kills people almost

16:12

all of us could have a child that

16:15

makes a racist joke that makes another kid feel

16:17

unsafe

16:18

knowingly or unknowingly almost

16:20

any of us on here could have a child

16:22

that shares racist mean that

16:24

hurts feelings of somebody else or

16:27

if you have to look at look at way gets them in

16:29

trouble in school that there

16:32

consequences martin even

16:35

more importantly there are consequences

16:37

to the kids of color the jewish kids the

16:39

queer kids the trans kids

16:41

around them who are hurt by their

16:43

casual

16:44

for harmful language you wrote

16:46

a twitter thread that turned into and op ed column

16:49

that turned into guide

16:50

that you co wrote called confronting

16:53

conspiracy theories and organized

16:55

bigotry at home a guide

16:57

for parents caregivers what's

16:59

in

17:00

for thing we do is talk about the basic history

17:02

of like why this is happening and

17:04

why to are so easily influenced

17:07

and and we also some warning signs

17:09

that come up when your kid is

17:12

being influenced at any sort

17:14

of stage we have the beginning stages like

17:16

my kids when were they didn't even know what they were saying

17:19

all the way to signs that they're

17:21

actually joining with

17:23

groups and may do dangerous

17:25

things and

17:28

then some very specific tools

17:30

and talking points for the kids

17:33

most parents don't know how talk about racism

17:35

even in general let alone what talk

17:38

to kid and engage them because

17:40

ultimately we want

17:42

or kids to feel like they can come to us

17:44

and talk to us and not feel shamed or

17:46

blame cause that shame and blame

17:48

is what pushes them to

17:51

these groups

17:52

the thing that neo nazi groups

17:55

and modern white nationalist

17:57

groups want is for

18:00

kids that feel disenfranchised

18:02

to have a family

18:06

in their organization and

18:08

whether its skinheads recruiting in a back

18:11

alley and nineteen eighties or

18:14

today on discord or wherever

18:16

else from their the shooter moved to

18:18

discord a chatting platform popular

18:20

with young gamers he wrote a racist

18:23

manifesto and kept and online

18:25

diary detailing the planning

18:27

and execution of a racially motivated

18:30

attack it's the same kind of thing the more

18:32

disillusion they become there parents the

18:34

more likely they are to believe what

18:36

here and these groups and they more likely they are to

18:38

become very loyal to them

18:40

you make it sound kinda easy joanna

18:42

and it just feels like it's one of

18:44

the hardest things because teenagers

18:47

are incredibly hard to approach sometimes

18:50

whether not their and the process of

18:52

planning a mass shooting they balk

18:54

at parents getting more involved in their lives

18:57

and you're talking about not only

18:59

getting more involved but really engaging

19:02

them on some complicated

19:04

ideologies and some some complicated

19:07

phenomena that we haven't really come terms

19:09

with what you tell parents

19:12

who say i tried that and now my kid

19:14

just never talks me or my kids hiding their phone

19:16

or my kid does everything elsewhere with

19:18

is friends and then comes home and you know is his

19:20

just a wall

19:22

yeah i mean there's to kinds messages

19:24

first if have little kids understand

19:28

by the time they're twelve especially

19:30

by the time they're fourteen they're not

19:32

going want talk to you about it so you start now

19:35

and you include them in media

19:37

analysis whether it's some messaging

19:40

in the little mermaid that makes you uncomfortable

19:42

when they're six if become human

19:46

i'll never be with my father

19:48

that's right but

19:52

, have your man

19:56

life's tough choices

19:58

in mm

20:01

or watching friends and seeing

20:03

some low key homophobic a racist stuff

20:06

and they're twelve question

20:09

dating anybody are you because i somebody

20:11

would be

20:12

for you cute he

20:14

funny the

20:22

the

20:29

start then but if you're kid teenager now

20:31

yeah i understand it's terrifying try

20:34

and be engaging instead of

20:37

i know your doing this bad thing there

20:39

are levels at which you should involve

20:41

a therapist who specializes in

20:44

children and adolescence and have family therapy

20:47

it can really help because therapist

20:49

can help take some of moms

20:52

just trying troll me push

20:54

back out conversation

20:56

objective but also

20:58

yeah if you think your kids trying to acquire gun

21:01

guide call call

21:04

but hopefully

21:06

everything else that you do before

21:09

that will prevent them from getting to that

21:20

lot for parents that's why shooters

21:25

institutionalized and that p t are

21:27

talking about

21:28

and schools are talking about it and you're talking

21:30

to your principals and shooters and educators

21:33

sports groups churches temples

21:35

every organization has any influence

21:37

over kids understand

21:42

me can do this systematically

21:44

and not just me over here and

21:46

my little house with my my to teenage

21:48

children

21:49

were you over there wherever you live

21:51

with your teenage

22:00

joanna schroeder she put out that guide

22:03

i'm how to talk to your teens about the worst corners

22:05

of the internet through the western states

22:07

center based and portland oregon it's non

22:09

profit non partisan organization

22:12

that's trying to combat bigotry online

22:14

and elsewhere you can find the guide at western

22:17

states center dot org slash

22:19

caregivers schroeder day was produced

22:22

shan , his first he

22:25

had help from matthew collect lord bullard paul

22:27

mansi and me i'm shan romes from

22:29

no podcast monday we're off for memorial

22:31

day we'll still be on the radio though because we're

22:33

tricky like today