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500 500. We.

1:01

All love a good family mystery? I

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liquidiv.com. I'm

3:13

Hannah. I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red

3:15

Handed. Where for

3:17

the first time in a while. We.

3:20

Have a guest and the senior we do. It

3:23

is a four legged friends. We have

3:25

got Mabel Mcguire and the Office today.

3:28

Of a civil at us out any

3:30

particularly troublesome moments but fingers crossed see

3:32

to follow a map hopefully and

3:34

actually can't believe. I seconds tell you

3:36

this before I went to well add take

3:38

my able to that for her a kennel,

3:40

cough vaccination, Otherwise, they wouldn't take

3:42

her. And I was a sitting

3:45

in the like. Surgery and that was

3:47

a guy siting outside and then I came

3:49

out to pay. And he when I'm

3:51

sorry is your son a mcguire and i was

3:53

like. Yeah. He was. I've been

3:55

essential pocus for years. Which is very unusual

3:57

for an middle aged man. Know of anyway.

4:00

It turned out. He is

4:02

the dog trainer for that particular

4:04

that he the really famous. Drug

4:06

Trade A He does like. says. They evenings

4:08

with puppies after that such that's hilarious. And

4:10

he was I all and I heard you.

4:13

Speak but maple of our the having

4:15

a breakdown abscesses and then the vet

4:17

came out of his name's Dale and

4:19

he was. I. Always. Made Aleppo

4:21

costa. as the him this this guy

4:23

think his name is joe was like well kind

4:26

of. And it's because I'd oversee said

4:28

about having a breakdown the that was like

4:30

the amount of single people come in here

4:32

with puppies and just fall apart. And.

4:34

Burst into tears. Aca happens all the time, and although I

4:36

think I've managed to keep it together in here. but at

4:38

what? note? that. Although

4:41

know, I know that's funny. Your

4:43

celebrity? maybe not. But.

4:45

A quiet one, quiet, well behaved one

4:47

with. A silent partner.

4:51

And as a straw poll of true crime today.

4:55

So. We did a red herring on this I think

4:57

didn't Years and years and years. And guy that, yeah, we

4:59

did a red. Herring on this

5:01

case. Are Ip red

5:03

Herrings. Fascinating on it's of

5:05

really really into I know how to.

5:07

You don't find missing persons cases as

5:09

interesting as I do. I think it

5:11

is interesting especially. The more modern

5:14

ones like you're how yeah and

5:16

not happen, How is this possible?

5:18

So this one actually. Is.

5:20

A ten year anniversary through. I think

5:22

that this episode is going out on

5:24

the fourth of April. The. To

5:26

like main feed red handed. But basically

5:28

what you need to know is this

5:31

week is essentially the ten year anniversary.

5:33

So. These to. Go. Having

5:35

gone and it's crazy it's apps

5:38

a crazy. So. Let's get into.

5:41

On. The morning as a first of April.

5:43

Twenty fourteen. To. The young

5:45

Dutch women holidaying in Panama. Set.

5:48

Off to height L Pianist a trail.

5:51

This popular trail near the Paquette a

5:53

district of Trick A. Lead. Series:

5:55

A beautiful Panamanian cloud. forest

5:57

by the bar a volcano and

6:00

it should have taken them about three and a half hours. It's

6:03

like quite a straightforward hike. I think

6:05

that's the key thing that I remember from

6:07

having covered this case in the past and

6:09

having looked into it. And I

6:11

haven't been to Panama actually. It's

6:14

one of the places I wanted to go when I did South America,

6:16

but I found it quite hard to figure out how to get from

6:18

Panama to Colombia because obviously the Darien

6:20

Gap is there, it's very hard to navigate.

6:22

I think they were saying like, you have

6:24

to go through the San Blas Islands on

6:27

a boat. And I was like, well, no thank you because I

6:29

see a boat and will just dehydrate myself

6:31

from throwing up endlessly. So I

6:33

didn't go there. But I

6:35

think anyone who has traveled to South America,

6:37

it's kind of just standard hike. That's just

6:39

like, yeah, three and a half hours, take

6:42

a backpack, take some water, take some snacks,

6:44

take a hat and wear proper shoes and

6:46

you'll be fine. They're not

6:48

like going out into the great, great unknown.

6:50

They're not going out into the Darien Gap

6:52

or anything crazy. No, they

6:54

also weren't on their own. They

6:56

had a little friend with them. And

6:59

this little friend, like Maple, had

7:01

four legs and was called, it says in

7:03

the script blue, what is blue in Spanish? Azur?

7:06

Yeah. And that was his name. I'm not gonna whitewash him.

7:09

Fair, fair, fair. Honestly,

7:11

dog's name blue, fucking everywhere. I've got

7:13

two of them. But yes, Azur joined

7:16

in on this little hike.

7:19

So Azur had actually been lent to the girls

7:21

by the owners of a restaurant at the

7:23

start of the trail because they

7:25

were like, please don't go on your own. And the girls were

7:27

like, we'll be fine. And they were like, please take the dog. So

7:30

that's what happens. And when you

7:32

see pictures of the two women who were

7:34

obviously gonna go on to introduce, but their

7:37

names are Chris Kremers and Liz Andrew, I

7:39

think they look younger than they are, which is

7:41

why I accidentally started off the show by calling them

7:43

girls. But I think it's because you see the pictures

7:45

of them. They're 20, 21, but

7:47

they look very young, I think, for their

7:49

age. And Azur

7:51

the dog was the only one

7:53

who returned from the hike. The

7:56

women were never seen again in

7:58

one piece. The disappearance

8:00

of Lisanne Froon and Chris Cremitz

8:02

has remained a haunting mystery for a

8:04

decade now. And only

8:07

as all the dog truly knows what transpired

8:09

in the forest that day. As

8:11

for the rest of us, all we can do

8:14

is speculate. And

8:16

you'll be completely unsurprised to hear,

8:18

dear listeners, that the investigation was

8:20

botched from the very beginning, and

8:23

Panamanian authorities have been

8:25

accused of multiple fuck-ups,

8:27

cover-ups and incompetence galore

8:29

since. Now in this

8:31

episode we'll take you through the known

8:33

events, evidence and leading theories of whether

8:35

the women's lives were claimed by misadventure

8:39

or by murder. Did the

8:41

Panamanian rainforests swallow them up? Did

8:43

the women cross paths with cartel cicarios?

8:46

Or were they harvested for their organs? Do

8:48

you remember the Emily Blunt film that was called

8:51

Sicario? Yes, I never watched it and everybody

8:53

always tells me how good it is but I just

8:55

am not that interested in drug shit. I

8:57

also haven't watched it but I remember the tagline really pissing

8:59

me off because it was like, in

9:02

Mexico, Sicario means assassin. I

9:04

was like, that's just the Spanish words.

9:06

That's just the Spanish words for a sentence. They're

9:09

so stupid. So I

9:11

didn't watch it because that annoyed me. I'm

9:15

not that like, well, I know

9:17

we did that episode which I

9:19

felt really passionate about actually when I wrote the script.

9:21

It was about all of the cartels and how they

9:23

were killing women, the femicides going on in Mexico.

9:26

It's still going on. It's worse than

9:28

ever. But otherwise, the actual

9:30

day-to-day running of, ugh, I don't care.

9:32

Don't care. But anyway,

9:34

they could play an important role in today's case, in

9:36

which case I do care very much so. So

9:39

yeah, lots and lots of theories. There

9:41

were other theories as well that came out about

9:44

people wondering whether the women had been hunted by

9:46

some sort of cannibal tribe after making a wrong

9:48

turn, or perhaps they had been

9:50

kidnapped, raped and murdered by some sort of

9:52

opportunistic predators they just so happened to come across.

9:55

We're going to get into it. This is the

9:57

story of Liz Anfroon and Chris Brown.

10:01

In early 2014, 22-year-old Lisan

10:03

and 21-year-old Chris moved into

10:05

an apartment together in their

10:07

home city of Amersfot in

10:09

the Netherlands. The pair first

10:11

met in a cafe where they both worked part-time.

10:15

Both of them had just recently finished their

10:17

undergraduate degrees the previous September, so

10:19

to celebrate they decided to go on

10:21

a trip to Panama together, something they had been

10:24

saving for about six months.

10:26

Panama also, of

10:29

the South American countries, Central South

10:31

American countries, it doesn't strike me

10:33

immediately when somebody says they're going to go to Panama as

10:35

the most dangerous place. It feels

10:37

like one of the places that would probably

10:39

be a bit safer to travel. Lisan

10:42

had studied applied psychology and was the

10:44

more shy of the two, despite

10:47

being six foot tall. How

10:49

fucking Dutch. Just casual.

10:51

Yeah. And a very

10:53

talented athlete with a penchant for extreme

10:56

sports. And unlike Chris,

10:58

Lisan had been to Latin America

11:00

before. It was actually during a trip

11:02

to Peru with her parents that Lisan developed a bit

11:04

of a love affair with the continent and its culture.

11:07

After Chris, an amateur actress

11:10

and aspiring art historian, she

11:12

hadn't ever traveled further than Southern Germany. So

11:15

this six week trip, 9,000 kilometers

11:19

from home, was a huge deal for

11:21

her. And because Chris had

11:23

graduated with a degree in cultural social

11:25

education, she suggested that they apply to

11:27

volunteer at a children's school while they

11:29

were there in Panama, which

11:31

the women managed to do. They got

11:34

in touch with a volunteer coordinator who

11:36

landed them a place teaching English at

11:38

a school in Bokepe called Ora. When

11:41

the big day arrived on the 15th of March,

11:44

Chris and Lisan flew from Amsterdam

11:46

to San Jose, Costa Rica and

11:48

caught a bus to Bocos del

11:50

Toro in Panama. Once

11:53

they arrived in Bocos del Toro, which

11:55

is on the coast of Panama, Lisan

11:57

made a short diary entry about her daughter's

11:59

life. The dislike of Costa

12:01

Rica. And her love of Panama.

12:04

And this what she wrote. I

12:06

would not want to be found dead in

12:09

San Jose. Or. That the chance

12:11

of this is quite high, That. That.

12:13

I could live in Booker. For. The rest

12:15

of my life. Stuff

12:19

at now. I'm going to chime in

12:22

with my Costa Rican experience. She's

12:24

not wrong. Yes, I'm as a

12:26

fucking horrible. So. I have a mint. Costa Rica

12:28

said you will have to tell us on a So I've

12:30

actually lived in Centers that but I've also. Been to

12:33

Baucus so I feel quite well received

12:35

in in what I'm about Sick. Son.

12:38

Is a. Everyone knows it's horrible. But.

12:41

Because up as you were saying, the waves travel

12:43

work someplace quite a lot of the time if

12:45

you want to go anywhere in Central America, You.

12:48

Fly into San Jose fast and then make your

12:50

way to wherever you're going. It's the cheapest way

12:52

to get the bus. That's what I did when

12:54

I went to book as it's like a hours

12:57

in horrible bus. Also what you're told to do

12:59

is in that. They didn't say the same

13:01

thing about Nicaragua, but I'm in Panama. You

13:03

were advised to. Keep your back on

13:05

you and not let us try to

13:07

put underneath the boss because and would

13:09

stop the buses with Mrs season the

13:11

steal your stuff. So.

13:14

I remember that quite clearly and it being

13:16

about Panama not Nicaragua's I did both. So

13:18

I took the very same bus that I

13:20

took down to Book Of. The

13:23

thing about Costa Cam. And Sonos am

13:25

sick. That is because it's so close

13:27

to the equator it gets dark at

13:29

six pm everyday the around. Wow. And

13:31

you do not under any circumstances and as I

13:33

get one of us have to talk show. I

13:35

made friends with a taxi man who are driving

13:37

have free because he saw me at a bus

13:39

stop after I've been watching Lay a the i

13:41

know your friends Nasa who was another English teacher

13:43

he was. I don't want to drive past see

13:45

you on your own so I will drive you

13:47

home. You just tell me Luis what ago So

13:49

yes. Such as a especially if.

13:52

You're not there long enough to a climate eyes to

13:54

it with a lot of people aren't because I just

13:56

in and out the like stay in that hotel. Because

13:58

you're told it's dangerous. But. My left eye

14:01

for nearly a year. I have a different

14:03

perspective, but. I can completely understand.

14:05

And you wouldn't say in a park, even

14:07

in broad daylight. It's. Just not safe

14:09

Is Not a safe. Happy or

14:11

clean place. Yeah and everyone you meet who

14:14

has been there. Is. Light. Gets

14:16

me out of here now. So.

14:18

I understand. Yeah, It's. Very

14:21

much the vibe that the the

14:23

to hear was sailing and book

14:25

as. I think it's a bit

14:27

naive. To. Be like I can live in Baucus for

14:29

the rest of my life. Baucus. Is a

14:31

party town. I went there for Christmas when

14:34

I lived in Costa Rica and it was

14:36

also the time I have sex with the

14:38

most attractive man I've ever had sex with

14:40

in my life. He's Australian, his name was

14:43

Abraham. And I will never

14:45

forget him as Christmas Day. Twenty thirteen

14:47

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14:49

sex with. The where? Where are you

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and use code redhanded at checkout. So

16:57

there are actually a lot of Australians in Panama

16:59

surfing so good. So he and

17:01

his friends were there for six weeks. They had

17:03

a little boat to get to their house. So

17:06

we left the bar and then got on a little

17:08

boat in the dark to go to this strange house

17:11

in Bockett. Anyway, the things you do

17:13

when you're in your early

17:15

20s. Yes, exactly. And I think, you know, that's

17:17

why obviously Chris and Nathan, you know, they're 20

17:19

to 21. Obviously, I think they

17:22

arrived somewhere new. It's exciting. It's probably

17:24

a lot more exciting than Amaz fruit.

17:26

Right. And I think, you know, they're just enamored

17:28

with it. And you see it all the time as

17:30

again, someone who has traveled, but also someone who has

17:32

come from a developing country, you'd see a lot of

17:34

times people just being like, Oh my God, it's like

17:36

paradise here. And I'm like, the

17:39

people here can't feed themselves. It's not

17:41

paradise. You're having a great time because you're

17:43

staying here with a Westerners budget for

17:45

a few weeks. Yeah. So no,

17:47

I am always ever

17:50

grateful. The more I travel, the more grateful I am to

17:52

be British and to be able to come back here.

17:55

So they were feeling naive, but that's because

17:57

they were very, very desperately young.

18:00

and their first trip solo. Yes.

18:04

So they spent two weeks on the

18:06

southern tip of Isla Colon in the

18:08

Bocas region, lounging on the beach, eating

18:10

seafood, sightseeing, learning Spanish and drinking Panama

18:12

stuff. I believe

18:14

the national beer of Panama is

18:17

Ohemia. It comes

18:19

in a red can and the Nicaraguan national beer is

18:21

Tonya and that's in a white and green can.

18:23

And there you go. And if you travel,

18:25

drink the beer. Drink the sealed beer. Don't

18:28

drink the spirits because I

18:30

remember it was actually in Asia but wherever I was, I

18:32

think it was in Indonesia, the people who

18:35

were drinking the spirits that they were

18:37

selling in the bars, like in the local

18:39

bars, they were just biking it with fucking

18:41

ethanol and people were going blind. Oh my

18:43

God. So the best advice I have for

18:45

anybody who goes travelling is drink the sealed

18:47

cans and the bottles of beer because there

18:49

is at least some regulation on how that's

18:51

brewed and you might not go blind. So

18:55

after their two weeks of fun time,

18:57

the girls arrived in Boquete, which is

18:59

a small mountain town, in the westernmost

19:02

part of the province on the 29th of March. They

19:05

were set to begin their volunteering work at

19:07

the school the same day and they'd even

19:09

received a confirmation from the coordinator just a

19:12

few days before. But

19:14

things just didn't go to plan. Their

19:16

teacher of the school told the women that there wasn't a

19:19

place for them that week and made

19:21

it clear that the school didn't require any volunteers. It

19:23

must be quite irritating to have

19:26

these westerners who have no experience of teaching

19:28

English at all, just be like, we're

19:30

just going to come and hang out at your school for two weeks

19:32

and then we're going to fuck off. I think it's weird. I

19:34

think it's hard for these schools because I

19:37

did go and volunteer in an orphanage when I

19:39

went to Peru. You pay the

19:41

orphanage, so it's a really good source

19:43

of revenue for these places because

19:46

they just had some dorms that you could sleep in and

19:48

that was it. You pay for your

19:50

own food, you sort of teach yourself out. And yes,

19:52

what we did was very low left. We'd

19:54

go, we'd pick up the girls from school, we'd walk back

19:57

with them, we'd hang out with them, we'd do

19:59

fun stuff. And they did learn some

20:01

English or some cultural stuff I guess from us

20:03

as we were learning some Spanish from them. And

20:05

I think, you know, it was just something for

20:08

these kids to do and some different people to

20:10

hang out with. Though I was very perturbed by

20:12

the fact that there was absolutely no background check

20:14

into me, no background check into anyone who was

20:16

staying there. So literally anyone could have rocked up

20:18

and done this volunteer work. And I

20:21

think as a source of revenue for these places, it

20:23

is really, really good because we were paying like,

20:25

you know, like a hundred quid a week or something,

20:27

which is a lot more than you would pay for

20:29

a hostel. And if that money goes

20:31

to be spent on the girls that were there.

20:33

That's a great thing and very easy. We

20:38

are not even recognised or given a friendly

20:40

welcome. I think it would

20:42

be scary to turn up at school, you've talked to

20:44

the coordinator, everything is going ahead, and then you get

20:47

there and they're like, sorry, who are you? I agree.

20:50

They tried another local school called

20:52

Casa Esperanza, but that didn't work

20:54

out either. And

20:56

the San Texas her dad saying we've been

20:58

sent away, we're really disappointed. So

21:01

with their plans of volunteering out the window, the

21:03

pair had to decide how to fill the next

21:05

four weeks of their time in Panama. The

21:08

first thing they needed to do was find a place to stay.

21:11

And a quick Google search led them to

21:13

a homestay in Alto Bocchete and Alto means?

21:16

I've forgotten, tall, tall. There we go.

21:19

So here the women were welcomed by

21:21

Miriam Guerra, who lived with her daughter

21:23

and grandson and had been hosting foreign

21:25

travellers for six years. The

21:27

girls were determined to not let the situation

21:30

with the language school ruin their trip, and

21:32

they were determined to make the most of it. So

21:34

they booked some guided tours over the following weeks with the

21:36

first one set to kick off on the 2nd of April,

21:40

which left them with a couple of days to kill. So

21:42

on the 31st of March, Chris and the

21:45

San, wandered around Bocchete, learning more about the

21:47

town they were now in. That

21:49

day, the San seemed to be coming

21:51

down with the flu, which had coughing fits and a sore

21:53

throat. I mean, it could have been

21:55

a cold, but she could also have been struggling to

21:58

just adapt to the high altitude of Bocchete. which

22:00

is around 4,000 feet above sea level. And

22:03

yeah, like I think when I was in Cusco,

22:05

which I can't remember how high it is,

22:07

but it is pretty high up, it's obviously

22:09

been told about altitude sickness before, but I'd

22:12

never experienced it before. And

22:14

yeah, it really fucking takes it out of you.

22:16

I thought it would just be like, you're

22:18

out of breath. No, you're physically

22:20

sick. It's all like nauseated. Even

22:22

just having this conversation would be very difficult for

22:25

the first few weeks because you feel so out

22:27

of breath just doing everyday activities, like just having

22:29

a shower and getting dressed. I would feel like

22:31

dizzy and need to sit down. So

22:33

it is something quite intense that

22:35

your body is going through. But

22:38

despite all of that, the next day on the 1st

22:40

of April, Lisanne and Chris

22:43

decided to embark on the El Pianista

22:45

Trail, which is described on

22:47

alltrails.com as a nature trail ideal for

22:49

anyone wanting to immerse themselves in a

22:51

truly magical jungle world. alltrails.com,

22:56

a website that I use semi-regularly, and

22:59

look, they do great work, not here to

23:01

shit on them, but I find

23:03

their trails somewhat confusing. Quite

23:06

a lot of the time, but I like that

23:08

they're going through the detail of explaining this as a

23:10

nature trail into a truly magical jungle

23:13

world. But if I just want to

23:15

find some hikes around fucking Lake District, it seems like the

23:17

hardest thing in the world to do. So

23:20

the website says it's magic, but it also warns

23:22

that this trail can get very

23:24

muddy and rocky, and it can at

23:26

times be fairly challenging. I feel

23:29

like they ask cover a lot on alltrails.com.

23:31

I'll find a trail somewhere else on another website, and

23:33

I'll be like, it's fine to do. And then you

23:35

look it up on alltrails.com and it's like, no, challenging,

23:37

only for experienced hikers. And I'm like, is

23:39

it just so if I die on it, I can't sue you? A

23:43

LPNista isn't as well travelled

23:45

a route as other hikes in the

23:47

area. And several websites mention that

23:50

it's in an area where there

23:52

are jaguars and mountain lions quite

23:54

a lot. Just last

23:56

year, in June 2023, a

23:58

jaguar killed a middle-aged low-income hiker

24:00

in the middle of the day in that

24:02

very area. The trail begins

24:04

down a fairly rural and remote road, about

24:07

15 minutes outside of Boquete, and

24:09

although there's no official start to the hike,

24:11

most people use the El Pianista restaurant

24:13

as a marker point. Locals

24:16

have also reported that they warned Chris

24:18

and Lisan not to go on the

24:20

trail alone, but the girls brushed

24:22

these warnings off and went on anyway.

24:25

Again, just classic early

24:27

20s traveller business.

24:30

I don't want this to sound like I'm making

24:32

Germanisations about Dutch people. But...

24:37

They're so tall. When

24:39

I was in South Africa, the thing about

24:41

Table Mountain is that it

24:43

is high, so phone reception bad. So

24:46

I decided I was going to go up

24:48

there. It was 35 degrees, I had no hat,

24:52

I'd started way too late and I had shit shoes

24:54

on. Why? And I was on

24:56

my own. But because my mum had done

24:58

Table Mountain the year before, I was like, if my mum can

25:00

do it, I can do it. But my mum obviously started off

25:02

at like two o'clock in the morning. Anyway, so

25:05

I'm like walking up there and I'm like,

25:07

I have a bad feeling about this. Like, I think

25:09

I'm going to turn back and get the cable car

25:11

up, which is what I ended up doing. So

25:13

I turned around and I was like, this is dumb, I'm not doing this.

25:16

And I walked back down and then there was this

25:18

flock of Dutch girls. I

25:20

could see their skin burning already. Like they're

25:22

wearing sports bras and shorts. I

25:24

think one of them had a hat. Anyway, I was

25:27

like, and they stopped me and they were like, how long did it take you

25:29

to get to the top? Because it was like quite late

25:31

in the afternoon and they closed the mountain at a certain time. And

25:33

I was like, oh, no, I didn't get there.

25:35

I'm turning round. And they were like,

25:38

okay, I just kept on going up.

25:40

And then I took the cable car up. I did not

25:42

see them at the top. So maybe they're still there. Oh,

25:44

my God. Oh, my God. I

25:47

would describe myself as a seasoned hiker as

25:50

that I am fucking horrified. I'm

25:53

absolutely horrified. In this case,

25:56

they should have gone on all trails

25:58

dot com. That is terrifying. And

26:01

I was like, you are menta- and they were

26:03

like very very young obviously. Yeah, yeah. But I

26:05

was like, good fucking luck. I'm gonna go and

26:07

sit in my air-conditioned car. Yeah,

26:10

I think that is pretty much part and

26:12

parcel of the traveller experience for some people

26:14

and Lisanne and Chris were definitely going down

26:16

that road. And a taxi

26:19

driver would later claim to have dropped

26:21

them off at the LPNesta restaurant at

26:23

around 1.30pm that day. However,

26:26

timestamps from their later recovered digital cameras

26:28

would suggest that they began their hike

26:31

at around 11am. The

26:33

trail is meant to take around 4-5

26:35

hours to complete, which I personally

26:37

wouldn't regard as a short hike,

26:40

but that's what the girls would pack for. Also

26:42

if we look at what they were wearing,

26:44

they were both wearing short shorts, tank tops

26:47

and had packed a light backpack with their

26:49

passports, phones, water bottles, a digital camera and

26:51

a smaller amount of cash in. And

26:53

although they were both adamant that they didn't need

26:56

a guide, they accepted the

26:58

restaurant owner's office of taking their

27:00

dog Azul along with them. But

27:04

when little Azul returned to the restaurant

27:06

later that day tail wagging but very

27:09

much alone, the owners were a little bit worried.

27:12

However, they didn't have any idea how

27:14

bad the situation really was, but

27:16

how could they have? It

27:19

wouldn't be until the following morning that

27:21

people became genuinely concerned, Lisanne and Chris's

27:23

wellbeing. They had booked a

27:25

walking tour of the national park near Boquete

27:27

with a local guide called Feliciano Gonzalez, and

27:30

when the girls failed to turn up, Feliciano

27:33

went to look for them at their homestay. It's

27:36

also reported that Feliciano had spoken to the

27:38

girls in person just 24 hours before they

27:40

disappeared. I'll put a pin in that

27:43

because it comes back later. When

27:45

their host Miriam Guerra, who was aware that the

27:47

two of them had gone on the LPNista Trail the day

27:49

before, realised the girls weren't in their

27:51

rooms, she contacted the authorities.

27:55

Sinaproc is the name of

27:57

Panama's FEMA-like National Service for

27:59

Civil Protection. But

28:01

to Miriam's frustration, they seemed reluctant

28:03

to help and barely took her

28:05

concerns seriously. Given

28:08

that Miriam and Chris were two travellers

28:10

in their early twenties, Cinebrock

28:12

basically said that they were probably just out

28:14

partying or something. It wouldn't

28:16

be until four days later that the

28:18

authorities decided to conduct an aerial search

28:20

of the trail and one on foot

28:22

with the help of locals. Thankfully,

28:25

experienced local guides knew that the first 24 hours

28:28

were vital in finding missing people

28:31

and so they banded together a group of volunteers

28:33

on their own. The trouble however

28:35

was that Chris and Lissanne hadn't told

28:37

anybody exactly where they were going. They

28:39

probably didn't know since they didn't have a

28:42

guide and they're not from the area. So

28:45

it was tough to narrow down the search

28:47

efforts to one area in particular. The

28:49

volunteer search party spent the first few

28:52

days scouring the still active Baru volcano

28:54

which was the most popular hiking attraction

28:56

in that area. John Tromblom,

28:59

one of the guides helping with the search,

29:01

later told the Daily Beast that if the

29:03

two women had just left a note or

29:05

sent a single text about where they were

29:07

going, it could have all turned out very

29:09

differently. Again, it's just not something

29:11

you think about. I think it's a combination of

29:13

that age where you feel very indestructible

29:16

and you're very, very high risk

29:19

prone if you have a certain personality type.

29:22

And yeah, I just don't think you think

29:24

anything of it. I remember having, San

29:27

Jose is in a valley, right? And there are

29:29

active volcanoes surrounding it which is why it's a

29:31

lot cooler than, it has its own microclimate basically.

29:33

Anyway, one of the biggest mountains surrounding San Jose,

29:36

which is the one that everyone talks about climbing

29:38

is called Pico Blanco and Luis, my taxi driver

29:40

friend, he was like, no people die up there.

29:42

Like you really should be really careful about approaching

29:44

that. And I remember being like, ah, shut up,

29:47

Luis. Like, people die. Oh,

29:49

yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my God, when we did Ana

29:51

Pona Base Camp, we were like, I haven't got any money

29:53

to pay for a guide. And I also

29:55

feel very conflicted about the whole Sherpa situation. So I'm going

29:57

to get myself up there. We didn't have a map. We

30:00

didn't have a guide. We did it all and we didn't die. But

30:02

there was a lot of missing persons posters on

30:04

the route up and down and there's a fucking

30:06

memorial to all of the people that have died

30:08

on the day you're about to reach base camp.

30:11

But again, it felt totally fine. It

30:13

felt like, ah, I'll be fine though.

30:16

The arrogance of youth. And

30:18

again, I'm not trying to say this to

30:20

blame Chris and Lisanne. On any other occasion,

30:22

in any other situation, they would have been

30:24

totally fine. Anything happened

30:27

on this trip that ended

30:30

tragically. We don't know what it

30:32

is. We're obviously going to talk about potential theories. But

30:34

I'm not trying to blame them for what happened to them. It's

30:37

tragedy. And if somebody else was

30:39

involved, obviously it's not that

30:41

fault. Meanwhile, back

30:43

in the Netherlands, the Kremers and the Frunes didn't

30:46

have a clue that their daughters were missing in

30:48

the Panamanian rainforest. But they did know that

30:50

something was wrong, because neither family had

30:52

received a message from either Lisanne or Chris since

30:55

the 1st of April, despite having daily

30:57

contact up until then. Chris

30:59

and Lisanne had shared even the

31:01

minutest details about their daily activities.

31:04

And when they still hadn't managed to make

31:06

contact with their families by the 6th of

31:08

April, their parents got on a plane along

31:10

with Dutch detectives and headed for Bukketti.

31:13

And this is when Cinnaproc finally

31:15

decided to get involved. And together

31:17

with canine units and helicopters, they

31:20

searched the forest for 10 days straight. And

31:23

according to John Taunblom, the guy that

31:25

we mentioned earlier, the rescue

31:27

operation was, quote, a

31:29

total clusterfuck. Cinnaproc

31:31

failed to find even a single clue as to

31:33

what happened to the women, and after

31:35

10 days, they all but gave up. The

31:39

Dutch authorities then brought in their own

31:41

canine units and started a new search

31:43

in the latter part of May. But

31:45

heavy rainfall stopped them from getting very

31:47

far. It was not looking

31:49

good. Desperate for answers,

31:52

the women's families advertised a $30,000 reward for

31:56

any new information on Lisanne or Chris's

31:58

whereabouts. of course,

32:00

as we always see in cases like this,

32:02

was well intentioned but ended up

32:05

backfiring in a major way. Many

32:07

people in Boqueta earn around $10 a day.

32:10

So $30,000 was a monumental life-changing

32:16

amount of money in most of that area. And

32:19

basically all it did was entice people to

32:21

inundate the authorities with false tips and evidence

32:24

in the hopes that something they

32:26

said might lead to them getting the money. Ten

32:29

weeks then passed with no new leads

32:31

on the investigation. The Dutch

32:33

authorities began to wonder whether some of the

32:35

locals who knew the forest like the back

32:37

of their hands knew something

32:40

but were just too afraid to come forward

32:42

with information. All hopes

32:44

seemed to be well and truly lost in finding

32:46

Lesanne and Chris. But then

32:49

on Wednesday the 11th of June a local

32:53

N'Gobay woman came forward

32:55

with Lesanne's blue like

32:57

crap backpack. The N'Gobay

32:59

people are an indigenous population of around

33:01

260,000 across Panama,

33:04

Costa Rica and Central America. The

33:06

thing I always say about Costa Rica is

33:09

that it's a country that kind of feels

33:11

like it doesn't have much of a culture

33:13

because the Spanish killed them all. So like

33:15

the indigenous population of Costa Rica is tiny

33:18

and like there's these big stone spheres

33:20

all over the country, nobody knows why they're there because

33:22

everyone's dead. And you can tell the difference between a

33:24

Spanish quote-unquote Costa Rican and an indigenous one on

33:26

the bus, like they look so different. So 260,000

33:28

may sound like a big number but when you

33:30

put it into context

33:34

it's very very small. So

33:37

this woman claimed that she'd found the bag in

33:39

a rice patty on the bank of

33:41

the river Colibu which means

33:43

serpent and she said that

33:45

it was near the remote village of Alta

33:47

Romero which sounds like a shit

33:50

new car. But

33:52

it's not, it is a place and I'll tell you about

33:54

it. but

34:00

from where Chris and Lisanne have last been

34:02

seen. It's not a place

34:05

that one would accidentally stumble upon reaching

34:07

the village would require having to

34:10

travel through a fairly dense snake-infested

34:12

rainforest. And what's more, the woman

34:14

was adamant that the bag had not

34:17

been there before. Which is

34:19

weird, because the investigation had been going

34:21

on for ten weeks. But

34:23

it gets weirder still because the bag itself was a

34:25

cheap one. It wasn't waterproof or

34:27

reinforced in any way. But its

34:29

contents were in pretty good condition. The

34:33

bag didn't even remotely look as though

34:35

it had been in the humid Panamanian

34:37

jungle for ten weeks floating along

34:39

a powerful river for multiple kilometres surrounded

34:41

by snakes. Investigators

34:44

by this point knew, of course, it

34:46

was an almost certainty that Chris and

34:48

Lisanne weren't going to be alive by

34:50

this point. But the bag and its

34:52

contents were the first and only lead that

34:54

they had got in two months. And it

34:56

might in some way shine a light on

34:59

what fate had befallen the women. The

35:01

bag contained Lisanne's passport, her

35:04

insurance card, two bras, two

35:06

pairs of sunglasses, an empty water

35:08

bottle, her Samsung Galaxy and

35:11

Chris's iPhone 4. There

35:13

was also $83 inside and

35:16

Lisanne's digital camera. Forensic

35:19

analysis revealed 34 different

35:21

fingerprints found on these items, along

35:24

with two unknown DNA samples, one of

35:27

which was male. Unfortunately,

35:29

none of these prints were a match

35:31

for the ones that Panamanian authorities had

35:33

on record. The

35:35

data from the women's waterlogged phones,

35:37

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35:39

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35:41

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their phones were analysed, investigators learned that six

37:38

hours into their hike, which should have taken

37:40

them maximum five, remember, the women had attempted

37:42

to call 112, the European emergency

37:45

number. The first call

37:47

was made at 4.49pm on Chris's iPhone

37:50

4, and the second attempt was

37:52

made from Lisanne Samsung at 4.51pm. a

38:00

level of insight into what we know is happening. Like you

38:02

say, it should have taken three hours, the round trip should

38:05

have taken about five. So the fact

38:07

that six hours in, they're both frantically trying

38:09

to call an emergency number, it's

38:11

just, it's just scary. Now

38:14

I think back on some of the trips

38:16

I've taken, I am like, what the fuck

38:19

were you thinking? What the actual

38:21

fuck were you thinking? Because it just takes one

38:23

thing to go wrong. Oh my God. And

38:25

I do not know how. I

38:29

am not dead. I made such stupid

38:31

decisions. And honestly, if

38:33

I ever have a child and they wanna go

38:35

do a trip like I did, I obviously want

38:38

them to because it was an incredible experience

38:40

and it gives you so many skills in

38:42

so many ways. But I would be like,

38:45

please for the love of God, don't

38:47

be as stupid as I was. Even

38:49

one thing that they're trying to call the

38:51

European emergency number. As I moved from

38:53

country to country, I did not know what the emergency number was

38:56

in the country that I was in. But

38:59

it's just not something that occurs to you because as

39:01

a 20 year old, you are not that conscientious. I

39:03

also think the thing that always catches me out still

39:05

is phone reception. Because we're so used

39:07

to having it constantly, but then you

39:09

go to places like this and they're too high and

39:12

you don't have coverage. I

39:14

have been caught out by that many a time.

39:17

I don't even wanna tell you all the

39:19

stupid things I did. Let's just leave it

39:21

at that. Because I might

39:23

get arrested. So

39:26

neither of the calls connected, but

39:28

this record does tell us that both

39:30

of them were likely still alive

39:32

at this point, but something had

39:34

happened to worry them enough to

39:36

call an emergency number. Both

39:38

phones were then turned off for a total of 14 hours until

39:42

they tried calling again on

39:44

Wednesday the 2nd of April. Attempts were made

39:46

at 6.58 AM, 8.14 AM, 10.53 AM using

39:51

both phones alternately. Records

39:54

show that they both only had

39:56

50% battery life when

39:58

they began on the PC. pianist a

40:00

trail. I can't go. I can't go. It's

40:03

just so horrifying. I

40:05

think the reason both of us probably

40:07

feel quite affected by this particular case

40:10

is because never by the grace

40:12

of God go I like this. It

40:14

could have been me. And

40:17

it is absolutely terrifying. I hate

40:19

this. I hate

40:21

this like analysis because obviously we're going

40:23

to get into what could have been going on

40:25

but something was going on. Obviously their

40:28

phones are so low that they're like we

40:30

need to try turn it off and maybe

40:32

wait until we get better reception and then

40:34

they try again and again and again. Oh

40:37

my God. I can't. But

40:39

I must because we've got still half a

40:41

script to get through. Now

40:43

the last call attempt by Lisan

40:46

and Chris was made on the 3rd of

40:48

April at around 9.30 am

40:51

and after that the women made a signal

40:53

check each day at the same time at

40:55

around 10 am and 1.40 pm. Then

40:59

at some point between the 7th of April

41:01

and the 10th of April Chris's iPhone was

41:03

turned off and wasn't turned

41:05

on again until the 11th of April. This

41:08

also means tragically that when authorities started

41:10

their search of the forest on the

41:13

6th of April at least

41:15

one of the girls was still alive. But

41:17

they stopped that search five days after they went

41:19

missing. If they had started it on the day

41:21

they went missing or at least the

41:23

next day both of them could still have been

41:25

alive. Now Chris's iPhone

41:27

remained on for one hour until it died on

41:30

the 11th of April 2014. And

41:34

it's important to mention at this point that between the

41:36

7th of April and the 10th before

41:38

Chris's iPhone was turned off for a few days

41:41

there were multiple incorrect

41:43

pin entry attempts into

41:46

her phone. Which

41:49

I hate. Now the

41:51

official 150 page report

41:53

from the NFI which is the

41:56

National Forensic Institute stated that

41:58

Chris's iPhone required two parts of the phone. one

42:00

for the phone and one for the sim. These

42:02

pins were both activated correctly from

42:06

the 1st of April to the 5th of April, so that's the

42:08

day they go missing until 5 days later.

42:11

But then, from

42:15

1.37pm on the 5th

42:17

of April onwards, and bear

42:19

in mind her phone was on again, off

42:21

again until the 11th, so 6 days later,

42:23

for those 6 days the pins

42:26

were never correctly entered again. So

42:29

it is possible that at this point Chris

42:31

was either unconscious or possibly already

42:33

dead, and maybe Lisanne

42:36

was still alive and just didn't know her passcode

42:38

and kept entering it incorrectly. But

42:40

it's also possible of course that these incorrect

42:42

pin entries were done by an unknown

42:45

third party. Unfortunately,

42:47

because neither of the phones made

42:49

a successful connection, it was

42:51

not possible to track them by GPS. Now

42:55

we've got Lisanne's digital camera, which

42:57

was found with over half of

42:59

the battery life remaining. There

43:01

were two sets of photos discovered on the memory card.

43:04

Most of the first set contained perfectly normal tourist

43:06

photos of the pair of them along the trail.

43:09

In these pictures Chris and Lisanne looked perfectly

43:11

happy, posing by trees, smiling and clearly

43:13

enjoying themselves. The timestamps of the

43:16

first set show that Lisanne and Chris actually

43:18

reached the summit in pretty good time. The

43:21

last few photos however appear

43:23

to show the women continuing

43:25

onward past the summit of

43:27

the Pianista Trail, which you're

43:30

not supposed to do. No, no,

43:32

no, no. Because

43:35

those trails are only really used

43:37

by indigenous people who live deep within

43:39

the rainforest, and they headed

43:41

away from Bokehte. Whether this

43:44

decision to continue is by accident or whether

43:46

they were forced to go on the trail is

43:48

unknown. Now many people

43:50

think that the two women

43:52

look a bit worried and less happy in

43:54

the last few photos in that first set,

43:57

maybe as though they were lost or

43:59

something. That was either that, or

44:02

there was an unwanted person or persons

44:04

with them at this point. And

44:07

the last photo from this set is

44:09

of Chris walking across a stream looking

44:12

back at the camera with an

44:14

undeniably worried look on her

44:16

face. The call

44:18

log from her iPhone shows that she

44:20

made her first attempt to reach emergency

44:23

services very night. I

44:25

don't think it's reading too much into it to look

44:27

at the pictures and see that there is a shift

44:29

in the demeanor of the women and that that night

44:31

is the first night they start trying to call

44:34

out. Before we read too much

44:37

into all of this, it's also vital to

44:39

remember however that the majority of the photos

44:41

that were on that camera have never been

44:43

published. We only have access to maybe less

44:46

than half of what was on that memory

44:48

card. Again it's kind of similar to like

44:51

Bridge Guy case where there was

44:53

a lot longer of that

44:55

video that was shot by

44:57

Libby that we've just never seen. So

44:59

we're only able to analyse the information

45:01

that we have access to. Now

45:04

let's talk about the second set of photos because

45:07

these are incredibly troubling.

45:10

All of these photos were taken at night

45:12

and there are about 90 of them. They

45:14

were all taken on the 8th of April. So

45:18

that is seven days after the girls

45:20

went missing. And they were all taken

45:22

between 1am and 4am using

45:24

the camera's flash in

45:26

total darkness. Which if that

45:28

is not enough to send chills up your spine, then

45:31

let me continue because there are many strange

45:33

things about these photos. Now

45:35

we've read in several places online that investigators

45:38

found that photo number 509 was

45:41

deleted from the memory card in

45:43

a way only possible using

45:45

a computer. So someone

45:47

would have had to plug the camera into a computer,

45:50

look at all the files on there and then delete

45:52

it. They couldn't have just deleted it on the camera

45:54

itself. And one photo also

45:56

appears to show the back of Chris

45:58

Primer's head where it looks like You

46:00

can make our woot. And. Many

46:02

people online. Many. Remember

46:07

were doing when we did the red herring on

46:09

this? We're talking about how. Because. It's

46:11

so many pictures with the front of. Who.

46:13

They trying to see. On it's

46:15

like. Did they realize we don't want

46:17

to waste up battery on our phones were

46:19

lost in the pitch black? We need to

46:22

conserve phone energy. Should we just is

46:24

essential my camera. None.

46:26

Of it makes sense as did they think maybe they

46:28

were calling for help? If I was

46:30

love to the jungle and I heard some noise nearby

46:33

may be a smart thing to do is to start

46:35

flashing the camera in the hope that somebody sees the

46:37

light. We don't know. Another

46:40

picture seems to show a large rock

46:42

with tissues and sweet rep as on

46:44

it. Could. Listen. Have

46:46

been attempting to mark the location of Crysis

46:48

dead body with these items. Insight as. Stranger.

46:51

Things have happened. In. One of the

46:53

care of photos taken later on a cable

46:55

bridge only used by indigenous people can be

46:58

seen in the background leading across the ravine.

47:00

Oh My. God. They're just so in

47:02

the middle of nowhere where they shouldn't

47:04

for be. Another photo shows

47:06

two arrows that Listen had made using

47:09

sticks on the floor, one pointing towards

47:11

the bridge. And. Another pointing

47:13

down stream of earth. It.

47:15

Just makes you think that they're like

47:17

Blair Witch last. Like they're going round

47:20

around in circles and she's finding some way.

47:22

May with the sweeper. With

47:24

the arrows to try and. Tell her south

47:26

or she's trying to tell people. This is the

47:28

way I went. Or. She's trying to be

47:30

like we keep ending up in the same size. Oh

47:32

my God. I don't know, but it's hard reset. It's.

47:35

Possible that Chris slipped off the bridge

47:37

and was swept away by the powerful

47:39

river beneath. And maybe. That's. What she was

47:41

trying to explain but the arrows movie. During

47:44

the search for Chris in the sand,

47:46

bone fragments of three unknown indigenous people

47:48

were found along the river. So.

47:50

Maybe people have fallen from that Brits before. Almost

47:53

definitely. The. Discovery of

47:55

a backpack gave the investigators a new

47:57

search area. Over the following.

48:00

Sengobi people and guides including police

48:04

discover 33 bone fragments

48:06

along the Kulebro River and

48:09

this included the Shansfema,

48:12

her hiking boot with her foot

48:14

still inside it, Chris's pelvic

48:16

bone and one of her ribs. So

48:20

yeah it takes them weeks before they

48:22

find these remains because when they find

48:24

the bat it's already weeks

48:26

they know there is very slim chance that

48:28

the women are still alive but maybe

48:30

there is some hope. This is the point

48:33

that all hope is gone because they found

48:35

their remains. Later

48:37

on an indigenous person found

48:39

Chris's shorts apparently neatly folded

48:41

on a rock further upstream from where the

48:43

backpack was found. Well that's what was reported

48:45

for a while it's actually not true the

48:47

shorts were just floating around. Forensic

48:50

examiners noticed that Chris's pelvic

48:53

bone was extremely key, too

48:56

key. There were also phosphate

48:58

found in all the bones belonging to Chris.

49:00

These phosphates were not naturally

49:03

found in any of the surrounding soil.

49:06

They were phosphates which would be present

49:08

if somebody had cleaned the bones with

49:10

lime or lye. Lyes

49:13

also have some Latin American drug

49:15

cartels unknown to clean bodies. Other

49:18

experts have argued however that this

49:20

apparent bleaching could well have been

49:22

caused by sustained exposure

49:24

to sunlight. So again it's

49:26

very hard to know exactly what happened. But

49:29

something else which makes people suspect foul

49:31

play is that Lissanne's bones were

49:34

in an earlier stage of decomposition

49:36

than Chris's. So

49:39

that means that she died

49:41

after Chris's and this is

49:43

despite both of them having been dead for

49:45

around five months by this point. A forensic

49:48

investigator suggested that Lissanne's bones had

49:50

been stored in a cool dry

49:52

place and it was likely that

49:54

she died much later than Chris's. But

49:57

we have read other experts online saying

49:59

that rainforest habitats are made

50:01

of many micro-environments, so

50:04

even if the women's bodies had lain

50:06

maybe a few metres apart, they could have

50:08

been exposed to very different surroundings. As

50:11

such, decomposition can appear rapidly in some,

50:14

and much slower in others, depending on

50:16

several factors like scavengers, river currents,

50:18

or surrounding flora. The

50:21

investigator also observed that the cut

50:23

of the bone on Lisan's severed

50:26

foot was considerably clean and

50:28

there was no blood on it, and

50:30

apparently, Lisan's bones didn't even have visible

50:32

marks of bites or clawing or hacking,

50:35

even under a microscope. But we

50:38

do have to bear in mind that

50:40

the vast majority of both skeletons, including

50:42

the skulls of the two women, were

50:44

never recovered. And

50:46

then on August 29th 2014, the

50:48

next discovery was made. And

50:51

it's gross. A ball of skin

50:53

from Chris' shin bone was

50:55

found in the same area along the

50:58

Culebra River, in a very

51:00

early stage of decomposition. For

51:03

many, this was more compelling evidence that the

51:05

body parts had been stored somewhere cool and

51:07

dry before being left in the forest. But

51:10

to this day, no cause of death has

51:13

ever been confirmed for either of them. The

51:15

official conclusion by the Panamanian authorities, however, was

51:17

that Lisan and Chris were swept away by

51:20

a swollen river and that they have drowned.

51:23

But they were alive for so many days calling for

51:25

help. I mean, maybe they were

51:27

swept away and they end up somewhere else, but then

51:29

it's like, they couldn't have drowned

51:32

because that would have been a very

51:34

sudden and violent end. But they seem to

51:36

have been in trouble for a long time because they

51:38

were calling for help repeatedly. You can't

51:40

be being swept down a river with your phone above

51:42

your head trying again and again, turning it off for

51:44

a few days. Like how many days were they swept

51:46

along this river for? I feel

51:49

like that is a very strange thing to

51:51

say. Why not at least say they were

51:53

just lost and they died of exposure. They

51:55

died because they didn't have enough stuff with

51:58

them and maybe their body. Swept

52:00

away in a river. Me to weed thing to come

52:02

to the conclusion that they drowned when that doesn't fit

52:04

the evidence we have at home. And

52:07

also. Talking. About swollen river.

52:09

In actuality, Panama had been experiencing

52:11

quite a large drought and the

52:13

months preceding April. With. the

52:15

river even have been flowing fastener to smashed

52:17

up their bones that badly. That

52:21

the Dutch investigators whoever had stated that

52:23

although it's of course impossible to say

52:25

that foul play didn't attack. They.

52:28

Actually do lean more towards. The

52:30

accident scenario. For. One

52:32

if the girls had been kidnapped. More.

52:35

I was there. no ransom demand. It. It's

52:37

a relevant cliche. But. It doesn't

52:39

take into account me I did a whoever

52:42

kidnapped the women did say sadistic. Reasons not

52:44

monetary. Easing The classic

52:46

thing here is like of course

52:48

you've got these two white golf

52:50

lost. In the jungle. If somebody's gonna kidnap them,

52:53

they're doing it for money. but the could have

52:55

just been have run of the mill fucking psycho.

52:57

Say does like it doesn't mean that that is

52:59

the reason that happened. And a

53:01

lot of people disagree with the accent theory.

53:03

For one, if the girls had slipped into

53:06

the river. Why? One any

53:08

more of their bones discovered. And

53:10

also the pathetic locals. he believes that the

53:12

girls were murdered. All the seem to point

53:14

the think. Towards. None other.

53:17

Than funny Cnn consulate.

53:20

And we have to be. There. Isn't

53:23

any solid evidence of tool against.

53:26

That circumstantial evidence which keeps popping

53:28

up had made a lot. Of

53:30

people fairest. Again,

53:32

just to be clear is that been arrested.

53:34

He's not been convicted of this. It's just

53:36

a theory that people have. Said.

53:39

A key things that make people think that Feliciano.

53:41

With involved. He

53:44

was on. It allows people to see or speak to

53:46

the limit. So. The Cr know

53:48

also let the search party during

53:50

which the police and thirty three.

53:53

And according to local guide dog Love

53:55

police had a few times already in

53:57

this episode p spoken to than men.

54:00

Tourists who have made complaints about for

54:02

the Cia. Saying the he has. Apparently

54:06

he do things like bathe in the hot.

54:09

Springs with female tourists which is not

54:11

what you should be doing as a

54:13

guide. But. Because the investigation

54:15

concluded that no crime had taken place,

54:17

Fallacy on. I was never interrogated, I

54:20

just don't know how they came to the conclusion that

54:22

no crime edit complained he. What's.

54:25

More. Finesse. ya know? had

54:27

a son who lives in outer rim era. The

54:29

remote village. Where the sands backpack

54:31

was discovered. That. The. Police

54:34

never investigated him. I. Don't love

54:36

the Feliciano theory like edit. The get has enough.

54:38

Really? No, I didn't get has

54:40

enough. but it doesn't have enough because they

54:43

didn't investigate to reset her teacher like I

54:45

just find it shocking. And then

54:47

everybody's. Just like ah, it must have been an

54:49

accident. On. Like how have you come

54:51

to that conclusion? From.

54:53

What we know based on the girls

54:55

core force and two sets of photographs.

54:58

We. Can split that like and to pass. The

55:01

first with a happy and enjoying themselves

55:03

on Lps to trail and the second

55:05

where. They go off trail and it

55:07

definitely lost. It is completely plausible

55:09

that going off trail and getting lost was a

55:12

tie, slacks and on their part. But.

55:14

That doesn't mean that they couldn't have bumped. Into

55:16

somebody with nefarious intentions. Later on,

55:19

The. Only argument against this

55:21

idea, however, Is it know

55:23

kidnap that would allow their victims to hold

55:25

onto and use their mobile. Phones and

55:27

cameras after they'd been abducted. We.

55:30

Also know that the Go didn't pack any

55:32

food. And. Only had one water

55:34

bottle each. And that

55:36

at least one of them survived for eleven

55:38

days. They would have been

55:41

starving, dehydrated last, and freezing cold.

55:43

Because a member they'll learn tiny

55:45

shorts and a tank. Top each

55:47

enlisted. It's entirely possible

55:49

that they resorted to drinking the river

55:51

water which could have mess them up.

55:53

And all sorts of ways like. Getting.

55:56

Them fucking dysentery. Which.

55:58

Only would have made the more d. The Great. It.

56:00

An interesting case, you don't know what isn't tree

56:03

is. Let. Me horrified if

56:05

an infection of the intestines

56:07

which causes diarrhea containing blood or

56:09

mucus along with severe stomach.

56:11

Queens sickness and an incredibly

56:13

hard. As

56:15

we said, the Dutch investigators lean

56:17

more towards. In theory, and so

56:20

did the Panamanian authorities. Have

56:22

to say the her his just as

56:25

much evidence in support of. The.

56:27

Foul play theory as there is of

56:29

the accident theory. Which is that

56:31

there's not much either way, but I don't

56:33

think they had enough from what we can

56:35

see. To shut the door on

56:37

one versus the other. They could

56:39

have at least left at. Inconclusive. Today.

56:44

If you reach the summit of the A pianist

56:46

a trail. You'll. Be met with a

56:48

rusty metal sign. That. Reads and

56:50

a trail. Do. Not pass.

56:53

Which. Should make it pretty obvious that

56:55

you should follow the well maintained trail back

56:57

down to Poughkeepsie. Contents:

56:59

Fourteen however, When. Chris in

57:01

the somewhere on the trail, there was no such

57:03

sign. Ah and you can see that maybe

57:05

they got there. I just didn't realize they

57:07

were there and carried on. That is all

57:10

my goal as so powerful. But

57:12

even still, The tiny much a

57:15

pass that the women would have entered to

57:17

go past the summit. A. Very obviously

57:19

not meant for tourists. That

57:21

rocket trails and they looked dangerous because

57:23

that all. Chrysalis. And

57:26

weren't exactly series explores. Who

57:28

wouldn't have been phased by these trials may

57:30

be. But then also prison be talking through

57:32

the whole thing. the arrogance of use like

57:34

I can see myself doing something like that

57:36

was twenty one and. They just want

57:38

it. Got a nice hank, learn Spanish and do some volunteering.

57:41

And that's a big reason why so many

57:43

people believe in the foul play theory. A.

57:45

Lot of people think that they were just too smart

57:47

to have decided not to turn around and go back

57:49

the way they came. Yeah. It's

57:52

it's surprising with as the trails

57:54

it very very rough dressed like

57:56

you know with the mountain why

57:58

it at that. point did they not

58:01

realise that it should go back? Because it

58:03

also would have started to get dark. They didn't

58:05

set off till one o'clock. Because you know the photo show

58:07

that they made it to the top in good time and

58:09

they said it was something like three and a half hours

58:11

to get to the top. Why didn't they?

58:14

You're getting on for four, almost five. Why

58:16

didn't they turn back when the trail started

58:18

to get so rough? Was

58:20

there somebody stopping them? Or

58:22

something? Maybe one of them was injured. I

58:24

just don't know. And there

58:27

actually have been a number of reports

58:29

of people having been robbed on the

58:31

Alpianista trail, so maybe they were forced.

58:34

Enrique Orocha, who represented

58:37

the Krimas in the investigation, is adamant

58:39

that the girls were kidnapped. Enrique told

58:41

the Daily Beast that he'd ventured into

58:43

those tiny trails himself to see what

58:45

they were like, and he said there

58:47

was mud up to his knees. He

58:49

went on to say that the trail is like

58:52

a river almost impossible to walk through, and

58:54

that there was no way that Lisanne and Chris

58:56

would have gone that way voluntarily. So

58:58

also if we're saying that there was a drought

59:01

at the time, maybe the trails weren't as bad

59:03

when they were walking there. But still, I think

59:05

the key thing we hear repeatedly from everybody who's

59:07

done the trails is that there is

59:09

a clear difference between the trails leading up

59:11

to Alpianista and then afterwards when you're

59:14

heading into the jungle. Now

59:16

once you pass the end of trail sign, the

59:19

trails apparently get so steep that in

59:21

some places you have to get on

59:23

all fours and crawl backwards. Some

59:26

of them are even too steep for mules, and

59:29

as the trail crosses from the state of

59:31

Chiricay to the province of Bocos del Torre,

59:33

you have to cross some very steep gorges,

59:36

and then you have to cross some incredibly

59:38

deep maroons using the dranky cable bridges. And

59:41

this is why the K9 teams that even

59:43

the Dutch investigators had brought in weren't able

59:45

to search those areas. The only

59:47

people other than the indigenous people who

59:49

ventured that way are extreme hikers who

59:51

go with a tonne of equipment and

59:53

probably a paid guide and probably a

59:55

satellite phone. Another argument

59:58

people make for foul play is

1:00:00

the fact that Lisanne and Chris, who

1:00:02

had been in contact with their families every

1:00:05

day, didn't leave a good blue message. Especially

1:00:07

because they have a camera that was

1:00:09

still working, and folks, and as horrific

1:00:11

as it sounds. Especially

1:00:13

if one of them died first, like Chris

1:00:15

dies first, Lisanne is on her own. I

1:00:18

cannot imagine that even in a moment of

1:00:20

sheer breaking point that she

1:00:22

wouldn't have made some video or written

1:00:24

some note on her phone saying

1:00:27

goodbye to her parents and explaining

1:00:29

what happened. Saying, we went the wrong

1:00:31

way, Chris got injured, she died,

1:00:33

she's buried here, I'm running

1:00:36

out of time, if nobody ever hears from

1:00:38

me this is what happened. That does

1:00:40

seem weird. But maybe she was sick,

1:00:42

maybe she had dysentery, I don't know.

1:00:45

But then again, maybe the night time photos were

1:00:47

them trying to leave a message. So

1:00:50

why were the Panamanian authorities quite so

1:00:52

horribly shit with their investigation? Why?

1:00:55

I don't know, but they gave up on their

1:00:57

search after just 10 days. And when the backpack

1:00:59

turned up 10 weeks later, they found over 30

1:01:01

fingerprints on it. But they didn't look at them at

1:01:03

all. And that was

1:01:05

the decision of Panamanian Attorney General,

1:01:08

someone called Betzada Pity, who

1:01:10

had been adamant since day one that there

1:01:12

was absolutely no foul play. Surprise, surprise. Please

1:01:15

keep coming to our country. No

1:01:18

one is murdering you. Yeah,

1:01:20

I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it?

1:01:22

It's like, when somebody's actions don't

1:01:24

make sense, look at

1:01:26

the consequences of their actions. And here it's

1:01:28

like, why are you saying that there's no

1:01:30

foul play? Oh, shock is

1:01:33

because you don't want Panama to be the

1:01:35

fucking murder capital of tourists in Latin America.

1:01:38

So you immediately know there's

1:01:40

an agenda for why they closed this. So we'll

1:01:42

never really know what happened. Now,

1:01:44

Chris and the San's disappearance had

1:01:46

garnered vast international media attention at

1:01:48

the time, and for sure that

1:01:50

had an effect on many people's decisions to

1:01:53

travel to Panama, with the

1:01:55

tourism industry making up around 15% of

1:01:57

the country's GDP. and

1:02:00

with big elections approaching, it

1:02:02

would definitely have incentivised Pity to close

1:02:04

this case. Especially

1:02:07

if the Panamanian authorities had discovered that

1:02:09

the women had indeed been victims of

1:02:11

some kind of fraud. And

1:02:13

this is what many seem to believe,

1:02:15

even going as far as to speculate

1:02:17

whether the women's remains and belongings were

1:02:19

planted in the river to make

1:02:22

it look like an accident. Pity has,

1:02:24

of course, called such insinuations irresponsible

1:02:26

and without foundation. So

1:02:29

I really wouldn't particularly

1:02:31

be surprised if it was the case.

1:02:34

Now, another thing that has made a lot of people

1:02:37

suspect foul play is the death of a man called

1:02:39

Osman Valenzuela. Because just

1:02:42

four days after Chris and Lisan disappeared,

1:02:44

Osman was found dead, having

1:02:46

drowned in the Chiriquisito River.

1:02:49

When his phone was recovered, Pity

1:02:51

found two blurry photos of Osman

1:02:53

and a friend swimming in the

1:02:55

nearby caldera hot springs. And

1:02:58

guess what? They weren't alone. Because

1:03:00

also in the photos were two white women, one

1:03:03

with red hair and one with blondish blonde

1:03:05

hair. It's not clear you

1:03:07

can't see their faces, but these photos were

1:03:09

taken on the 1st of April, the

1:03:12

day that Chris and Lisan went

1:03:14

on their walk. Haunting.

1:03:17

Oh, my God. It's

1:03:20

never been confirmed who the women are in Osman's photo,

1:03:23

but the other man in the swimming

1:03:25

photo is believed to be Osman's friend Jose

1:03:28

Murgas, who died a year

1:03:30

later in a hidden room. Obviously,

1:03:32

this is the furthest thing from solid

1:03:34

evidence. There's no tying Osman

1:03:36

to Chris and Lisan, so

1:03:38

we almost didn't include it. But we have

1:03:40

included it because a scenario where

1:03:43

Chris and Lisan were confronted with

1:03:45

unwanted male attention seems plausible, especially

1:03:48

when you consider that they were

1:03:50

close to well-known drug routes and easily could

1:03:52

have bumped into some very bad people. That

1:03:56

doesn't explain the clothing problem. There

1:03:58

were two extra brands. found in

1:04:01

the sans backpack. Who would

1:04:03

have packed that for a hike? Which was meant

1:04:05

to take five hours and if they

1:04:07

hadn't packed it it would mean that

1:04:09

these were bras that they were wearing that

1:04:11

day they went missing. Why

1:04:13

would they remove them and why would

1:04:16

Chris's shorts be found in a totally separate

1:04:18

location? Can you explain the bra

1:04:20

thing? Because they don't even pack food but

1:04:22

she's got two bras in that backpack. I think

1:04:25

I can. I'm a

1:04:27

very lazy packer. So

1:04:30

it would not be, especially if you're on like

1:04:32

a six-week trip, you've got loads of

1:04:34

stuff like maybe she just didn't take them out.

1:04:36

Yeah you know. It could absolutely be something or

1:04:38

nothing you're right. So we

1:04:40

don't know. We don't know. There's lots of things

1:04:43

we don't know because this case wasn't properly investigated

1:04:45

and also a lot of stuff that the authorities

1:04:47

have they have not released to the public.

1:04:51

We have come up with three plausible

1:04:53

reasons that the girls would have tried

1:04:55

to contact the emergency services just a

1:04:57

few hours after getting lost and before

1:04:59

dark. The first being an

1:05:01

injury like a sprained wrinkle

1:05:04

or possibly a snake bite but then

1:05:06

again why would they leave the trail? That

1:05:09

was the case. Why would you get off

1:05:11

the main trail into muddy paths if there

1:05:13

was some sort of injury? Or maybe they go

1:05:16

off the trail and then that's when it happens.

1:05:18

That's also possible. The second

1:05:20

scenario is that they were concerned that

1:05:22

they weren't going to make it home before night. This

1:05:25

is entirely plausible again.

1:05:27

But as we've said we know that

1:05:30

they made it to the throughmate quickly so

1:05:32

why did they think they couldn't make it home? Again

1:05:34

it only makes sense if they had walked

1:05:36

off the trail and realised that they had gone too far.

1:05:39

But even if they hadn't the question remains why

1:05:42

would they have left the trail? The

1:05:44

only answer there really is that they didn't. The

1:05:47

third scenario is that they ran into some

1:05:50

very bad people. But

1:05:52

if that's true why

1:05:54

the women were able to use their phones

1:05:56

and cameras so much over the following days

1:05:58

that they were missing also

1:06:02

they took so many pictures why isn't there

1:06:04

a photo of their would-be attacker? But

1:06:06

then again we also know the photo

1:06:09

509 was deleted from a computer. But

1:06:11

then if you're saying that the kidnapper takes

1:06:14

their camera plugs it into a computer to delete the

1:06:16

one picture there is of him on there but

1:06:19

then just blumps the camera with pictures of

1:06:21

the women including one possible picture where one

1:06:23

of them is injured and why

1:06:25

did they have their phones? It makes no

1:06:27

sense. Also come on can we be serious?

1:06:29

They go missing on the first. The phones,

1:06:31

at least if Chris's phone, is still

1:06:34

being used until the 11th. For

1:06:36

the last five days somebody's entering the wrong pin

1:06:38

again and again it could easily have been Le San. Chris

1:06:41

could have died five days into them having

1:06:43

been disappeared and Le San somehow survived another

1:06:45

five. But how does

1:06:47

an iPhone 4 survive? Ten

1:06:50

days when on day one it was already

1:06:52

at 50% which again

1:06:54

makes some people think that they were charging

1:06:56

their phone somewhere. But why would an abductor let you

1:06:58

charge your phone? I don't know. This

1:07:00

case just goes round and round in circles. And

1:07:03

it's not an isolated one. Just three years

1:07:05

after Le San and Chris's disappearance a German

1:07:08

lady who'd been hiking in Panama disappeared too. She

1:07:11

had been missing for several days before the owner of

1:07:13

the hostel where she was staying noticed that she wasn't

1:07:15

there in contact with the authorities. It

1:07:18

turns out that she'd got lost during

1:07:20

a hike to a popular waterfall in

1:07:22

the region and she'd wandered the mountains

1:07:24

for three days alone. No. Unfortunately

1:07:28

for her, the people who found her

1:07:30

were three men who despite being

1:07:32

part of the search party sexually assaulted her.

1:07:35

During the attack the woman managed to grab one of

1:07:37

the men's rum bottles, smash it and defend herself with

1:07:39

it. She managed to wound one of

1:07:41

the men before running away. Now

1:07:44

this woman was eventually found by search

1:07:46

teams as she wandered the bands at

1:07:49

the Maluba River and eventually her attackers

1:07:51

were identified and arrested. Unfortunately

1:07:53

cases of women being assaulted and

1:07:55

murdered are increasingly becoming commonplace in

1:07:57

Panama. According to Doctors Without

1:07:59

Borders, There has been a seven-fold

1:08:02

increase in sexual attacks against people

1:08:04

crossing the Darien Gap

1:08:07

since November 2023. Armed gangs

1:08:09

have been acting with impunity in the

1:08:11

lawless stretch of jungle between South and

1:08:13

Central America. And as

1:08:15

a result, there was a victim of

1:08:17

sexual violence there every three and a

1:08:19

half hours in December 2023. Of

1:08:23

course we do have to acknowledge that Boquete, where

1:08:25

Chris and Lisanne vanished, is on the opposite side

1:08:27

of Panama to the Darien Gap, but it

1:08:29

is still relevant. It doesn't

1:08:31

take very long, looking into Boquete's history of

1:08:34

violent crimes, to find a plethora of missing

1:08:36

person cases. In fact, since 2014 alone,

1:08:39

there have been around 25 unsolved

1:08:41

missing persons cases in that region.

1:08:43

And the dangers in Panama don't end there. Because

1:08:46

apart from the treacherous jungles, dangerous criminals,

1:08:48

jaguars and snakes, there are

1:08:51

also… Satanic cults. Fuck.

1:08:53

Why not? Shirk it in. This

1:08:56

time, the Satanic panic is quite

1:08:59

legitimate. In 2020, Panamanian

1:09:01

authorities discovered a mass grave containing

1:09:03

the bodies of a pregnant woman,

1:09:05

her five children and a 17-year-old

1:09:07

woman as well. This

1:09:09

is the case we covered. It is. This

1:09:12

is the case we covered. So actually, we have done

1:09:14

a full episode on the case that Hannah

1:09:16

is about to give you a very brief rundown on. So if you

1:09:18

want to go check it out, go back into

1:09:20

the Red Handed Archives because there's a big fat case

1:09:22

on it that we have already done. And

1:09:24

it's horrific. It really is. The

1:09:27

bodies were only found because locals alerted

1:09:29

authorities that 15 people were being held

1:09:32

against their will by a sect known

1:09:34

as the New Light of God. And

1:09:37

this group had murdered the seven people that

1:09:39

had been found as a part of a

1:09:41

violent Satanic ritual. And they had taken 15

1:09:43

members of the Nogabi indigenous group

1:09:45

hostage because the group's preachers wanted

1:09:47

to torture them into repenting their

1:09:49

sins. Yeah, that's really, really bad stuff. I

1:09:52

can't remember the number, but we will link

1:09:54

the episode in the show notes to this particular

1:09:56

case so you guys can find it easily. It's

1:09:58

well worth a listen. But just

1:10:00

to give you a little bit more information

1:10:02

here. The investigation revealed that

1:10:04

this group had been performing rituals

1:10:07

and exorcisms inside of a makeshift

1:10:09

church in a remote area about

1:10:11

250 kilometers from Panama City. The

1:10:14

survivors rescued by authorities were found

1:10:16

tied up with ropes and had

1:10:18

suffered considerable injuries having been beaten

1:10:20

with bats, Bibles and Machitis. And

1:10:23

inside the church the police found

1:10:25

a naked woman, Machitis, Mives and

1:10:27

the remains of a goat that

1:10:29

had been sacrificed. One

1:10:32

of the six members claimed that the rituals began

1:10:34

after he'd had a vision in which, quote, God

1:10:36

had given him a message. Of

1:10:39

the ten people who were eventually arrested

1:10:41

on suspicions of murder, sex, abuse and

1:10:43

deprivation, one of them was the

1:10:45

grandfather of the murdered

1:10:47

children themselves. So

1:10:50

yeah, that's tough. Go listen to the

1:10:52

episode. But there's more.

1:10:54

Because in 2009, in a

1:10:57

totally unrelated situation, 29-year-old Alex

1:10:59

Humphries from Stockport here in England

1:11:02

vanished while on holiday alone

1:11:04

in Bocchete, Panama. He was

1:11:06

last seen hiking towards the

1:11:08

Balnerio Magadua. Sure. And

1:11:10

although there were extensive searches and

1:11:13

press coverage, nobody has a

1:11:15

clue what happened to Alex. And

1:11:17

his parents have requested the government put out

1:11:19

a travel warning for Panama after they heard

1:11:21

Chris and listened. In

1:11:25

2022 alone, the Panamanian public ministry received

1:11:27

a total of 444 missing persons reports.

1:11:31

And we also have to stress that cases of

1:11:33

gender-based violence have reached a crisis point.

1:11:36

So it happens. It really is not

1:11:38

implausible that they were... get out

1:11:40

of by someone. No, absolutely not. And

1:11:43

like just the episode we did on Mexico,

1:11:45

I know it's a different country, but there's

1:11:47

no denying that Latin America has a

1:11:50

problem with gendered violence against women. So

1:11:53

I think it's incredibly likely,

1:11:55

incredibly plausible that Chris and

1:11:57

the Panaman met. their

1:12:00

ends as somebody else's hands. The only thing that

1:12:02

makes me think that's not the case is the

1:12:04

fact that they had their phones on them the

1:12:06

entire time." And

1:12:08

we won't ever really know what happened to

1:12:11

Lisanfroun and Chris Gremmer's. But we

1:12:13

can be certain that the Panamanian

1:12:15

authorities conducted themselves poorly during

1:12:17

their quote-unquote investigation. Their

1:12:20

deaths will probably be a mystery forever.

1:12:23

Not everyone has given up hope, though. In

1:12:25

2023, two Dutch authors, Marja

1:12:27

West and Jürgen Snorrin, announced

1:12:30

that they would be conducting a new search for

1:12:32

Chris and Lisanfroun. And Jürgen and Marja

1:12:34

have written a book on the disappearance called

1:12:36

Lost in the Jungle, and they

1:12:39

are convinced that the girls died in some

1:12:41

sort of accident. So they've set

1:12:43

out to find answers and the rest of

1:12:45

Lisan and Chris's bodies. And this was

1:12:47

the first time that anybody from the Netherlands has set out to

1:12:49

do so since 2015. And

1:12:52

the reason why Marja and Jürgen

1:12:54

were so hopeful was because

1:12:56

they planned on searching an area that hadn't

1:12:59

previously been explored. Basically, at the end of

1:13:01

the river, where many of the women's

1:13:03

remains were discovered, there is a dam.

1:13:06

And just before the dam is a filter

1:13:08

to trap boulders and branches and things like

1:13:10

that. And possibly also

1:13:12

bones. Now, as we said,

1:13:14

though, this search was announced in 2023, so just last year. And

1:13:18

so far, there hasn't been any word on whether

1:13:20

anything has been said. And in

1:13:22

this case, no news isn't. So

1:13:25

all we can do is hold out hope for now

1:13:27

that Chris and Lisanfroun's families will one

1:13:29

day get some answers as

1:13:31

to what befell their beloved daughters.

1:13:34

But for now, we just don't know. What

1:13:38

do you think, Hannah, based on

1:13:40

the very limited information

1:13:42

and evidence that we have? Because

1:13:45

we have a picture of a wound on the back

1:13:47

of Chris's head. Possibly. Yes.

1:13:50

I think she fell, injured

1:13:53

herself, hindering Lisanfroun

1:13:56

going forward, possibly. So then

1:13:58

she's helping her across the river. bridge she

1:14:00

falls and then I think the sand goes on for days

1:14:03

and possibly met with

1:14:05

some people yeah I think

1:14:07

that the thing that chips people up with this

1:14:09

case is they assume the same thing happened to both

1:14:11

of them and we have no evidence of that man

1:14:13

you think the evidence really

1:14:23

don't know I can find either

1:14:25

either eventuality you know foul

1:14:27

play or misadventure

1:14:29

entirely possible the

1:14:31

frustration with this case is that

1:14:33

there was not a proper investigation

1:14:36

not even by the doctor police it seems who

1:14:39

I don't know if they count

1:14:42

out to some sort of you

1:14:44

know bureaucratic I have a dramatic

1:14:46

situation that the the relations between

1:14:49

Panama and the Netherlands are really

1:14:51

good yeah but maybe that's why yes they didn't

1:14:53

want to make it worse they didn't want to

1:14:55

make it bad by going

1:14:57

in accusing people particularly possibly accusing

1:14:59

indigenous people as well which could

1:15:01

have been a very fiery shitstorm

1:15:04

to possibly get into so

1:15:06

we don't know and we will possibly never

1:15:08

know but it is a terrifying

1:15:10

story and just one

1:15:13

of those ones is like how in a

1:15:15

moment through a bad decision or

1:15:17

a mistake everything

1:15:19

changes and all I can think is how

1:15:21

fucking terrified particularly if they

1:15:23

were just lost how terrified the fan must

1:15:26

have been after Christide so

1:15:28

that's it guys this is a 10-year anniversary

1:15:30

like we said and let's see

1:15:32

if this new investigation reveals

1:15:35

anything and if there is we'll bring you

1:15:37

an update but that's it mm-hmm

1:15:39

be careful adios y bueno en rete

1:15:41

and all of that and we'll see

1:15:43

you next time very

1:15:45

different bye you

1:16:02

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