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Red Handed early and ad-free. Join

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on Apple Podcasts. Hello. Hello.

0:09

It's us again. Yes, and it is time.

0:11

It has happened. It has begun. The tickets

0:14

for our Antepidian tour are on sale right

0:16

now, and they are flying out of the

0:18

door, so make sure you get yours before

0:22

it is too late. It is

0:24

the truth that Hannah speaks. This

0:26

is the last chance to see

0:28

confessions. And tickets are

0:30

now on sale for Australia and New

0:33

Zealand. Quick reminder of where we are

0:35

going. On October the 4th, we will

0:37

be in Brisbane. On October the 5th, we'll

0:39

be in Sydney. On October the 10th, Perth.

0:41

October the 11th, Adelaide. October the 12th,

0:43

we'll be in Melbourne. And then

0:45

on October the 17th, we will,

0:47

of course, be finishing off in

0:50

style in Auckland, New Zealand. So

0:52

get your tickets. They are on sale now, probably

0:54

in the link of this thing that you're listening

0:56

to, and we'll see you guys there. Have

0:59

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3:23

Hello it's me. In

3:25

case you're wondering what this is, it is

3:27

of course a little antipodean trip

3:30

into the vaults of Red-Handed.

3:32

In honor of our upcoming

3:34

Australia New Zealand tour we

3:37

are so excited. So

3:39

we took a look at some of the

3:41

best cases we've covered from Down Under and

3:43

over the course of the next few weeks

3:45

we're going to be re-releasing them just to

3:47

get you and us in the mood for

3:49

coming down to Australia and New Zealand.

3:52

So very importantly check out this

3:54

episode and tickets are on sale now

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for you so get your tickets

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don't miss out. and enjoy this incredibly

4:01

fucked up Australian case. I'm

4:12

Hannah. I'm Susie. And

4:14

welcome to Red Handed, live from two

4:16

completely different locations. If this sounds a

4:19

little bit different than usual, your ears

4:21

are lying to you. We've always sounded

4:23

like this. Please don't email. It makes

4:25

me sad. Yes, we know guys. We

4:27

know. We're working on getting the

4:29

sound back to where it normally is. It's

4:31

because we're in a transition period. Hannah is

4:33

in the office. I'm still at home. Soon

4:36

we shall be together and it

4:38

will be the magical promised land

4:40

of podcasting. And we can't fucking

4:43

wait for that, but you're just gonna have to

4:45

bear with us until the

4:47

builder has completed the

4:49

flooring of my new house. I

4:52

think we may be the only

4:54

professional podcasters to have

4:56

never recorded in a studio in the

4:58

United Kingdom. We've only done it in

5:00

LA. In four years of Red Handed,

5:02

we have only recorded an episode together

5:05

in a studio one time and one

5:07

time only. That's it. Yes.

5:10

So I can't fucking wait. It's gonna

5:12

be amazing. It's gonna be completely magical.

5:14

We can't wait. So let's leave

5:16

that aside for the moment. Like Hannah said, please don't

5:18

message us and tell us the sound sounds weird. We

5:20

know. But should we talk about a

5:22

serial killer instead now? Yes. Actually, we

5:25

have to talk about something very close

5:27

to your heart before we can do

5:29

that. We are talking about hitchhiking for

5:31

the first time in quite some very

5:33

long time. So that's just

5:35

where we're gonna kick off this

5:37

episode with some classic debunks. And

5:40

before I even begin, I

5:42

am not condoning hitchhiking. No,

5:45

and nor am I. Don't hitchhike.

5:47

I will never hitchhike again. I

5:50

promise. I swear it. How

5:52

many times are you gonna lie to my

5:54

face? I promise. I promise. This

5:57

is the last time. In her... book

6:00

Killer on the Road, Violence on

6:02

the American Interstate, Ginger Strand, which

6:04

sounds, there are so many food-based

6:06

names in this episode that are

6:09

just... It also sounds like

6:11

an Isilon hair colour. Yes, yes. I've

6:13

been doing a lot of looking at

6:15

paint colours recently, and it could also

6:17

be a paint colour. Great

6:20

name. Love it. What

6:22

Ginger Strand says in her book is,

6:24

she actually relieves surrutis everywhere by asserting

6:26

that hitchhiking is not actually as dangerous

6:28

as we think it is. According

6:31

to Ginger, we've never actually had

6:33

any good evidence that hitchhiking is

6:35

a particularly dangerous thing to do.

6:37

It turns out that hitchhikers are not

6:40

actually overrepresented in any crime statistics that

6:42

you might come across. I think what

6:44

she's basically saying is like, at the

6:47

time of abduction and murder, you're no

6:49

more likely to be hitchhiking than doing

6:51

quite a lot of other things, contrary to

6:53

popular belief. I

6:55

find quite difficult to believe, but I've linked

6:57

the article to the New York Times when you can go read it.

7:00

But what isn't hard to believe is the

7:02

stigma surrounding hitchhiking. We've all heard it. It

7:05

is victim-blame central. If something happens

7:07

to you while you're hitchhiking, it will inevitably be

7:09

portrayed as your fault because you got in a

7:11

car with a stranger. And

7:13

when it comes to true crime narrative,

7:15

everyone's pretty keen to avoid the victim-blame

7:17

situation, but for some reason when it

7:19

comes to hitchhikers, that all sort of

7:22

goes out the window, which I think

7:24

is quite interesting. The hitchhikers out

7:26

of all of the victim groups are accepted

7:28

by quite a lot of people to have

7:30

been truly asking for it. So

7:32

much so that police officers – this

7:34

is unbelievable – police officers at Rutgers

7:36

University, which is in New Jersey, I

7:38

believe, handed out leaflets to hitchhiking women

7:41

that read, if I were

7:43

a rapist, you'd be in trouble.

7:47

I think of all of the people handing out

7:49

pieces of paper that say I might be a

7:51

rapist on it, police officers should be at the

7:53

bottom of that fucking list. What

7:56

the fuck is that? Oh

7:58

my god. who

8:01

designed this leaflet and then went through

8:03

the process of printing it out, standing

8:05

over a photocopier, making multiple photocopies, putting

8:07

it in the hands of police officers

8:09

to go out. There were so many

8:11

stages at which someone could have just

8:14

been like, oh really? Is

8:16

this what we're doing? Maybe we don't

8:20

need to remind women of the constant

8:23

threat of rape. Like maybe that's not

8:25

something we need to use our tax

8:27

dollars for. It's just like, oh don't

8:29

go outside because you will eventually be raped.

8:32

There's nothing you can do to avoid it, apart from

8:34

stop gaining in cars. And just when you thought you

8:36

were safe, I'm gonna hand you this leaflet that says, if

8:38

I were a rapist, you'd be raped

8:40

and in trouble right now. Yeah, you'd be in trouble

8:42

but I would get away with it because I am

8:44

a white man. Oh my god,

8:46

this is unbelievable. What the fuck

8:49

man. Rookers. Though it

8:51

is pretty clear where the blame

8:53

lies, hitchhiking might not be as dangerous

8:55

as we think it is but being

8:57

a woman certainly seems to be. That

9:00

said, in Murderville, serial killer sure, there

9:02

are a lot of hitchhiker killing big

9:04

hitters. Ed Kemper is the first one

9:07

that comes to mind. Killeen Stan was

9:09

coached into a car by Cameron Hooker.

9:11

The West's picked up roadside victims. The

9:13

list goes on and on. And

9:15

up there in the Psychopath Hall

9:18

of Fame is today's subject Ivan

9:20

Malat. I think that he, and

9:23

this could be because for reasons we'll go

9:25

on to discuss, we don't actually know that

9:27

much about his childhood and we only have

9:29

interviews with his siblings about what he's like

9:31

but I think he is a stone-cold psychopath.

9:33

Like I genuinely think there is something different

9:36

about the way his brain works. Oh,

9:38

100%. I also just have

9:40

to say this now, I know he's a

9:42

horrible serial killer, spoilers, but

9:44

I really love saying the name

9:46

Ivan Malat. Also,

9:48

unfortunately, in a

9:50

90s kind of way he's quite attractive. Oh

9:53

no! Yeah, yeah.

9:56

I don't feel good about it. No, and nor

9:58

should you, but you know... here we are.

10:00

So I like saying his name and Hannah back

10:02

in the 90s would maybe not have said no.

10:05

I don't know. I don't want to put words

10:07

in their mouth. But Ivan Malach, I feel like

10:09

whenever I say Ivan Malach, it reminds me and

10:11

actually something else in this episode also reminds me

10:13

of this, that episode of The Simpsons

10:15

where they go to Australia. Yeah. Yeah. I

10:18

see you've played Nifee Spoonie before. Yes.

10:20

Yes. Yes. Yes. Ivan Malach, that's

10:22

a terrible Australian accent. I apologize. Let's

10:25

move on swiftly. So

10:27

Malach is an outlier

10:30

in terms of serial killers because

10:32

he killed totally indiscriminately. We know

10:34

often serial killers have a very

10:36

specific type, a very specific kind

10:38

of person that they like to

10:41

go after. But Malach killed men,

10:43

women, Australians, Germans, English, Welsh, blonde,

10:45

dark-haired. He didn't really care as

10:47

long as he could get them

10:49

in his car. One

10:51

unfortunate soul with a possibly maybe

10:54

even more unfortunate name than

10:56

Ginger Strand was a man named

10:59

Paul Onions. Paul Onions.

11:01

Paul Onions. When I

11:03

first read that, I was like, oh my God. Like obviously

11:05

making jokes about victims, not funny. But

11:08

his name is Paul Onions. It's

11:10

true. It's true. Would it be better or

11:12

worse if it was Paul Bunyan though? Because then

11:14

everyone would laugh at him like that. We've had

11:16

Ginger Strand, Paul Onions and we've got one more

11:18

food based name coming up. And I feel like

11:20

if Ginger Strand, Paul Onions and the ladies coming

11:22

in later, whose name's Joanne Berry, they could all

11:24

just live together and make chutney forever and it

11:26

would just be a very happy time for them.

11:29

I mean, why

11:31

not? A little throuple, a chutney

11:33

throuple. I like it. So

11:36

Paul Onions ended up in Ivan

11:38

Malach's car in January 1990. Paul,

11:43

who was a British national, was travelling

11:45

around Australia and headed, as most Brits

11:47

do, to a fruit farm where

11:50

he planned on working as a fruit picker. And

11:53

his mode of transportation to get to this

11:55

farm was going to be hitchhiking. Yeah, it

11:57

starts in Sydney. He needs to get It's

12:00

completely normal. Australia

12:04

is a part of the Commonwealth which

12:07

means that Brits have a pretty favorable

12:09

visa situation over there. British people can

12:11

go over to Australia and work for

12:13

a year with basically no issues border

12:15

policy wise. If they want to

12:18

stay for longer they also totally can.

12:21

One of my favourite variations of

12:23

airport is Australian airport because they

12:25

are just so

12:30

fucking like no one can

12:32

come in and you can't bring this in.

12:34

You cannot bring this thing into

12:36

this geographically isolated country. Have

12:39

you been to a farm in the last 48 weeks

12:41

etc? So usually Brits

12:43

like we said they tend to go over to

12:45

Australia, work on a farm or something similar and

12:48

obviously it can be alright but I'm

12:50

assuming it can also be absolute hell

12:52

because Australia is fucking hot and bananas

12:54

are bloody heavy but they seem

12:56

to love it. I know quite a lot

12:59

of people who have done this fruit

13:01

picking situation and I think it's like yeah

13:03

it can go one of two ways. Like

13:05

it's never going to be like amazing because

13:07

you'll be like bitten by bugs forever and

13:09

it's boiling but some of them are really

13:11

really awful like the conditions are terrible and

13:13

blah blah blah. But I do know someone

13:15

who did it on a banana farm and

13:18

apparently when you're carrying the bananas

13:20

from the banana tree,

13:22

tree? Yeah tree. To the

13:24

banana storage house that process

13:26

of carrying it is called humping.

13:29

So the guy I know who did it he was like yeah I just

13:31

humped bananas for six months. Did you? Brilliant,

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brilliant. This

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So yeah, this is what the Brits were up to. And

15:56

in the 80s and 90s, Australia had a

15:58

reputation for being a pretty... country

16:00

and so of course hitchhiking

16:03

was very commonplace especially for

16:05

cash strapped backpackers. Travellers

16:08

loved Australia and most of the

16:10

time Australia loved travellers. The

16:12

original backpackers hostel is actually in

16:15

Sydney's King's Cross. Though we

16:17

did talk about it in the Peter Falconeo

16:19

episode about how there was that horrible case

16:21

of that guy who like fucking burnt down

16:24

that hostel and murdered a bunch of backpackers because

16:26

he didn't like them. So yeah,

16:28

you know swings and roundabouts Australia's got

16:30

mixed feelings. British people

16:33

specifically there's just fucking loads

16:35

of them in Australia because it's easy to get over there and

16:37

work visas and also the English language

16:39

because British people are lazy. What

16:42

you hear about a lot these days is, I know

16:44

again a lot of people who've done this, is that

16:46

people go to Australia they buy a banger of a

16:48

car and then they drive it across Australia over like

16:50

a six months to a year and then they sell

16:52

the car at the other end for like scrap

16:54

or whatever. Again like the Peter Falconeo case.

16:56

Yes exactly. In the 80s 90s hitchhiking was

16:59

a bit more normal than that and it

17:01

was certainly very normal for Mr.

17:03

Paul Onions. So

17:05

he stood on the side of the road and stuck

17:07

his stem out. He ended up

17:09

getting the ride he wanted from one

17:11

Ivan Milat. The ride turned

17:14

out to be very much not what Paul

17:16

Onions wanted at all but it

17:18

started out alright with normal stranger talk. As

17:21

they zoomed away from Sydney towards Canberra

17:23

along the Hume Highway. But then

17:25

the vibe changed. Ivan Milat

17:27

who had actually told Paul Onions that his

17:29

name was Bill started asking

17:31

some uncomfortable feeling questions. Milat

17:34

asked Onions whether anyone was waiting

17:36

for him in Canberra. Did anyone

17:38

know where he was going and

17:40

also if Mr. Paul Onions had

17:42

any special forces training. As

17:45

the duo approached the Belangalo State Forest which

17:47

I remember how to say it because it's

17:49

like a bungalow on an angle. And I

17:51

think it also comes up in that Simpsons

17:53

episode. This was the second word that reminds

17:55

me of it. Belangalo. approached

18:00

the bungalow on an angled state forest,

18:02

Milat pulled over and told Paul Onions

18:04

that he just needed to grab a

18:06

cassette tape because we are in the

18:08

90s that he wanted to listen to.

18:10

But Milat did not whip out a

18:12

cassette tape. He whipped out a gun

18:14

and a length of rope and said

18:17

this is a robbery. Paul Onions

18:19

was having absolutely bloody none of it and

18:21

he managed to escape the car albeit leaving

18:23

all of his worldly possessions behind him including

18:26

his passport. But he got himself out of

18:28

the car and started to run shouting, help

18:30

me, he's got a gun. As if

18:33

he was trying to outrun an alligator, Paul

18:35

Onions zigzagged all over the road and managed

18:37

to flag down another car driven by

18:39

local Chutney lover lady Joanne Berry.

18:41

Can't confirm if she actually enjoys

18:43

Chutney. I love that he ran in

18:45

a zigzag. Yeah, smart. I'm like, yes,

18:48

Paul Onions, that's what you've got to

18:50

do. Don't be like, what was that fucking kid's name

18:52

in Game of Thrones? Bloody Rickon. Rickon,

18:54

why are you running in a straight

18:56

fucking zigzag? Oh, now look, you've been,

18:59

spoilers, you've been shot in the back.

19:01

Excellent. I believe that Paul Onions may

19:03

have spent some time in the navy

19:05

which is why he would have known

19:07

to zigzag run. Top tips,

19:10

everybody take note. But I also might

19:13

have that wrong. No promises. As

19:16

Paul Onions is running towards his savior

19:18

Joanne Berry, Milat fired two shots in

19:20

Paul's wake. Joanne Berry took

19:23

Paul Onions to the nearest police station where

19:25

he told officers the whole story and then

19:27

literally nothing happened.

19:30

There was no report filed or if

19:32

it was filed it disappeared before it

19:35

would have come in super useful a

19:37

few years later. Two years

19:39

later, to be precise, when on

19:42

the 19th of September 1992 in the

19:44

Belangalo State Forest, two men called Keith

19:46

were out on a walk. And

19:49

maybe we're saying walk very

19:51

casually because actually the Keiths

19:53

were out on an orienteering course which,

19:56

you know, when you're doing it around your

19:58

local school park in playground. fine,

20:00

they were doing it in the

20:02

fucking Australian jungle flash forest whatever

20:05

it is. So I'm guessing it

20:07

was pretty hardcore, difficult

20:09

walking. So as

20:11

the two Keats were doing their

20:14

extremely difficult orienteering walk, they caught

20:16

an unpleasant whiff. They

20:18

followed the whiff to a rock

20:20

that was very poorly disguising the

20:23

decomposing body of a woman. This

20:26

woman had met an extremely

20:28

violent end. The autopsy

20:30

revealed that the victim had sustained 14 stab

20:33

wounds to the neck, chest, back

20:35

and ribs. A

20:38

homemade garrot remained around the neck of

20:40

the body. The spine had been severed

20:42

and it was later theorised that this

20:44

had been done to immobilise the victim

20:47

while the killer left and

20:49

came back. Okay, I was

20:51

like how long am I going to go before I bring

20:53

this up? It's time. Wolf Creek. Wolf

20:55

Creek, Wolf Creek, Wolf Creek. I'm pretty

20:57

sure that that movie was

20:59

based on a combination of the Peter

21:02

Falconio case and also Ivan Milat. And

21:04

in that, I don't know the actor's

21:06

name but she looks exactly like Keira

21:09

Knightley to me. She gets

21:11

like abducted by the killer. He does

21:13

this thing to her that he calls

21:15

lollipoping which is what this reminds me

21:18

of. When he stabs her in

21:20

the spine, she falls to the ground and

21:22

she's basically completely paralysed except for her head.

21:26

And he says, now I can just leave you and do

21:28

what I want but I can still hear you scream when

21:30

I come back and do fucking horrible shit to you. I'm

21:33

not going to recommend Wolf Creek if

21:35

you haven't seen it but it's there.

21:37

I haven't watched it. I'll watch it before end

21:39

of the duvet. I know I said I wouldn't, I forgot. I really,

21:41

you know, it's

21:44

fine. But

21:47

yes, it comes up a lot when you Google Ivan

21:49

Milat so it wouldn't surprise me at all. Basically

21:52

the whole lollipoping thing, it's just like a theory that

21:54

the person who did the postmortem had. Like a lot

21:56

of things in this case, a lot of the

21:58

stuff that I've done specific details, this

22:01

theory has never really been proven.

22:04

So as police searched the surrounding area,

22:07

another body was discovered just 30

22:09

metres from the first. The

22:11

person this body belonged to had

22:13

been shot 10 times in the

22:15

head from five different

22:18

angles, suggesting that the killer

22:20

had moved the head after

22:22

death to achieve his mutilation

22:24

goals. Most people

22:26

think that he was possibly

22:28

using the head for target

22:31

practice. Which I know

22:33

we've talked about a lot of fucked up shit

22:35

on this show but why that is so macabre,

22:38

like so so deeply deeply

22:40

harrowing. The idea of using

22:42

a decapitated head as target

22:44

practice. Yeah totally and it's

22:46

so like, he's killing

22:48

because he wants to kill, that's literally it.

22:51

There's no other fancy way around it. He's

22:53

not like a Ted Bundy where he specifically

22:55

kills women who look a certain way because

22:57

of whatever, because of his junior

23:00

broken heart. He doesn't care, he doesn't

23:02

care who it is, he just cares that he can get

23:04

them on their own in the forest. Definitely

23:07

you know what Ivan Malat is like

23:09

if somebody had made a movie about

23:11

a serial killer but they had done

23:13

a really shit script? Yes literally that.

23:15

Where there's no backstory, there's no motivation.

23:17

You're like why is he doing this?

23:19

This character has absolute no motivation and

23:21

he's just doing it. But then

23:23

I guess could you argue it's kind of

23:25

like, I don't know like Halloween and he's

23:27

just there killing people and there's no real

23:29

like motive or blah blah blah. I don't

23:31

know but then he obviously has a backstory.

23:33

Please don't at me I know that but

23:35

you know what I'm saying? It's like a

23:37

poorly written character but that's just because there

23:40

isn't anything more to him. So

23:43

at the scene police

23:45

also found ten 22

23:47

caliber Winchester cartridge cases

23:49

which were found just three metres away

23:51

from the second body. It has one

23:53

cartridge for each entry wound

23:56

to the skull. The second body also

23:58

exhibited stab wounds and the clothes

24:00

it was wearing were slashed. There

24:02

was also a red cloth tied

24:05

around the bullet-riddled head. There's

24:07

not any real attempt at a clean-up.

24:10

Like at this scene and then the subsequent screens

24:12

that we're going to go on to find, like

24:14

almost all of the gun cartridges are found, like

24:17

every single one. No one's really tried to

24:20

cover any tracks. And they really weren't trying

24:22

to cover any tracks because six fag butts

24:24

were found at the scene, which some claim

24:26

is indicative of the killer being around for

24:28

at least half an hour. I think smoking

24:31

six cigarettes in half an hour is a

24:33

lot. And I used to smoke a

24:35

lot. I don't smoke,

24:37

it's not cool. But like six is a

24:39

lot in half an hour, I think. Yeah,

24:42

I feel like I'm saying at least half

24:44

an hour. I feel like surely at least

24:46

longer because that's like one every five minutes

24:49

down to the butt, which I've never

24:51

smoked but that sounds like a lot. I'm just trying to

24:53

think in the situation in which I would

24:55

smoke the most quickly. Even then

24:57

I thought, no, don't think so. I don't think I could do

25:00

it. I mean, I'm sure I could if I had to if someone was

25:02

paying me money to do it but I would never choose to. Some

25:05

really callous joke about a gun to my

25:07

head. I could probably say that. Oh

25:11

my god. Yeah, I've decided I can start smoking again

25:13

when I'm 70 because then it won't

25:16

matter. So we've established that the cigarettes were

25:18

not hidden and the bodies weren't well hidden

25:21

either so they were thoroughly decomposed. But they

25:23

were still identified. The first body was that

25:25

of Joanne Walters. She was identified by a

25:27

ring on her finger. The second body, the

25:30

one with all of the bullet wounds, belonged

25:32

to Caroline Clarke. Both women

25:34

were in their extremely early twenties.

25:37

None of their personal effects were found with

25:39

their bodies. As we'll go on to find

25:41

out, the classic serial killer trait of trophy

25:44

keeping is especially present in this story. To

25:46

the point that the killer kept absolutely

25:48

everything that his victims had on them

25:51

in his house and even distributed them

25:53

among his family members. Some

25:55

of these trophies even had literal

25:57

name tags. Classic, classic, classic.

26:00

classic. We're getting into real classic serial killer

26:02

territory here. I feel like we

26:04

don't do a lot of serial killers on

26:06

this show so when we do it's worth

26:08

talking about. And when we were actually researching

26:10

the book one of the really interesting things

26:12

that we came across in the trophy-taking world

26:14

is particularly that idea of serial killers taking

26:16

trophies but not just keeping it like in

26:18

a secret little box under their bed but

26:20

giving them to their loved ones so that

26:22

like every time they see them it gives

26:24

them that little rush, it gives them that

26:26

memory. It's like a magnet that we buy

26:28

and put on the fridge to remind us

26:30

of a happy time. They're like here girlfriend

26:33

or sister or daughter wear this necklace

26:35

of a person I definitely murdered and

26:37

I love it and I get a

26:39

fucking massive hard on every time I

26:42

look at that necklace around your neck.

26:44

That's the vibe. Yeah absolutely and we

26:46

know it's trophy-taking and not robbery because

26:49

if the murders have been for money or possessions

26:51

or whatever it's much more likely that the killer

26:53

would have stripped what they wanted out of victims

26:55

bags and then discarded the bags slash clothes themselves

26:57

like what kind of thief wants to carry around

26:59

a massive backpack that's got someone's name on it

27:01

that's like property of you know like then that's

27:03

not it. And equally the extent

27:06

of the injuries the two women sustained were

27:08

so violent and so cruel that the perpetrator

27:10

had to be in it for the love

27:12

of killing itself. Nothing about it

27:14

was quick or painless. The killing was not a

27:16

means to an end. The killing was the entire

27:18

point. The discovery of the bodies

27:20

of Caroline and Joanne led to a criminal

27:22

profiler taking a stab at who he thought

27:24

the killer might be and this

27:27

guy causes a lot of problems. He does get

27:29

some things right but it's something it's like an

27:31

element of the story that never really goes away

27:33

like people never really let it go even though

27:35

there's no evidence to support like some parts of

27:38

it so it causes issues but this is what

27:40

he said. This profile I said that there were

27:42

likely two killers both from a working class background

27:44

and sporting a hatred of women. This seems to

27:47

be based on the fact that both Caroline and

27:49

Joanne were sexually assaulted and that they had been

27:51

killed in very different ways. The

27:53

profiler then asserted that the killers were

27:55

local, they knew the forest, they were

27:58

gun enthusiasts, probably hunted, probably returned. and

28:01

most importantly they were brothers. The

28:04

elder and more dominant brother was a cool

28:06

and calculated killer. He was the

28:08

shooter and the younger brother was a bit more erratic

28:10

and impulsive. He was the one who

28:12

liked to stab and most likely the one who instigated

28:14

the sexual assault on the women. Which

28:17

when you do look at the two killings, I

28:20

do see why somebody would assume that there were two different killers. Because

28:23

they are very different murders but like you

28:25

said the problem becomes that people latch onto

28:27

it and they don't want to let that

28:29

go. I will put

28:32

this in my summary at the end but I

28:34

am not convinced totally that there weren't more

28:36

than one people's involved. Grammar's

28:39

on holiday, never mind. So

28:43

Caroline and Joanne were both British but

28:45

they had not come to Australia together.

28:47

They had actually met on their travels

28:49

and decided to continue on the rest

28:51

of their Australian journey as

28:53

a new best friend pair like we all do

28:56

when we're away. They had last been

28:58

seen in Sydney five months before their bodies were

29:00

discovered. Joanne who was Welsh was reported missing in

29:02

May 1992 by her former employer. She

29:06

had been working as a nanny in Sydney. Caroline

29:08

was reported missing by her parents shortly

29:11

after. Both girls were

29:13

experienced travellers and had several countries

29:15

under their belts. The New South

29:17

Wales police even offered a hundred thousand

29:19

dollar reward for any information about the

29:22

girls' deaths. They also

29:24

offered a pardon to anyone who

29:26

had been in a complex but

29:28

nothing happened. The forest

29:30

was of course also searched but still

29:32

nothing. No further leads

29:34

appeared and no valuable information came

29:36

in. So despite the

29:38

international pressure from the British Embassy,

29:41

Joanne Walters and Caroline Clark's deaths

29:43

went unsolved and

29:45

to be honest almost entirely

29:47

uninvestigated until ten

29:50

months later. When?

29:52

Very embarrassingly for the New South

29:54

Wales police, two more bodies were

29:56

discovered in the Belangalo State Forest.

29:58

The search was not over. they had carried

30:00

out after Caroline and Joanne's bodies were

30:03

found had been half asked at best

30:05

and years later the lead investigator would

30:07

be done for corruption. Solving

30:09

the murders of the backpackers was definitely not

30:12

at the top of his list. So

30:15

this second set of bodies that was discovered

30:17

10 months later were discovered in

30:19

October 1993 and

30:21

this time it was a man and a woman.

30:24

Once again none of their stuff had been

30:26

found along with their bodies and just like Caroline

30:28

and Joanne these people had been killed with

30:30

a combination of gunshots and stab wounds

30:33

and the bullets at the crime scene were again

30:35

22 caliber. That

30:37

was all the papers needed to start

30:39

screaming the word serial killer into the

30:41

skies which to be honest was the

30:43

last thing the police needed. They were

30:46

already embarrassed and now they were under

30:48

pressure to get someone arrested. The bodies

30:50

were identified as Australian couple James Gibson

30:52

and Deborah Everest both 19. They were

30:55

reported missing three years earlier. They'd

30:57

been last seen in December 1989 leaving

31:00

their family homes in Melbourne to hitchhike to Sydney

31:02

and see some mates. Their plan was

31:04

to spend some time in Sydney and then

31:06

head to somewhere called Wow-wah to attend a

31:09

conservation festival. The pair were green activists and

31:11

attended a bunch of anti-logging protests.

31:14

Like Caroline and Joanne they

31:16

were pretty experienced travelers and

31:18

especially experienced hitchhikers. On the

31:20

13th of March 1990 a couple

31:22

of months after James and Deborah had

31:24

been reported missing a lady

31:26

called Wendy Delspedge was driving near Galston

31:28

Gorge which is about 36 kilometers

31:31

northwest of Sydney and she spotted a red

31:33

backpack on the side of the road. Thinking

31:35

she might be able to return it to

31:37

its rightful owner Wendy stopped her car, picked

31:39

up the bag and once she got home

31:41

she had a look inside and found that

31:44

inside the backpack was written the name Gibson,

31:46

a Victorian address as in it was in

31:48

the Victoria area of Australia and a phone

31:50

number. I love the idea of it just

31:52

being an old and tiny address. I

31:54

know just a phone number into the past, a

31:57

time machine phone number. Wendy called

31:59

the number and James Gibson's mum answered the

32:02

phone. The bag was then taken to a

32:04

police station and once again nothing came of

32:06

it. So we can see a pattern start

32:08

to emerge, the police have taken a piece

32:10

of evidence or even a whole victim like

32:13

Paul Onions and nothing happens. But

32:15

Australia is absolutely bloody massive

32:17

and people go missing in

32:19

New South Wales specifically all

32:22

the time, sometimes by choice. It's a

32:24

pretty easy place to disappear. Australia is

32:26

massive with super densely populated areas and

32:28

then just like fucking days worth of

32:30

driving with no people at all. Absolutely.

32:32

If you haven't yet listened to our

32:35

Peter Falconia episode, I know I've referenced

32:37

it a lot already, go listen to

32:39

it because in there I can't remember

32:41

off the top of my head but

32:43

we talk specifically about actually

32:45

how big the Northern Territory is and

32:47

like how many like Britain would fit

32:50

inside it. So yes I do understand

32:52

that it is like vast area, a lot

32:54

of it is just like uninhabited but I

32:56

have to say that the Australian police don't

32:59

come off well in a lot of cases

33:01

that we've talked about. And

33:03

by July 1992 there were 861

33:07

people termed as long-term missing in New

33:09

South Wales and over 400 recent missing

33:13

persons cases. It's not

33:15

difficult for me to believe that when a

33:17

backpacker goes missing, especially a backpacker, there might

33:19

not be the most effort to push into

33:21

it because it means you have to get

33:23

involved with the embassy, maybe you're gonna have

33:26

to deal with Interpol, like police from their

33:28

country are gonna want to talk to you,

33:30

like it's a lot of paperwork. Yeah

33:32

I feel like the way that backpackers,

33:34

especially possibly in a country that vast,

33:36

are maybe viewed often is kind of

33:39

like how teenagers were viewed in the

33:41

70s. They probably just run off,

33:43

they're probably fine, they're probably having a great

33:46

time somewhere, don't worry about it. Yeah exactly

33:48

and especially in like the 90s where like

33:50

hardly anyone had a mobile, certainly

33:52

not a backpacker, you're not gonna ring Britain from

33:55

Australia on a mobile in the 90s, you'd have to sell

33:57

your kidneys. Having said that...

34:00

Pressure from the British Embassy is exactly

34:02

what was happening and the fact that

34:04

the press would convince the everyone had

34:06

a serial killer on their hands. On

34:08

top of the failure of the police

34:10

to find dead bodies in a forest

34:12

they had told everyone they have searched

34:14

meant that a new task force was

34:16

formed and new lead investigators were put

34:18

at the top of the operation. They.

34:21

Do slightly better. It would be hard

34:23

to do was. I would have to

34:25

say. That. When the fifth of

34:27

November, a skull, an upper body. Will.

34:30

Also discovered in the forest. Someone.

34:32

Had attempt to hide another poop.

34:35

Under a pile of dried would

34:37

his body was identified as German

34:39

backpacker Simone Smigel. She had suffered

34:41

multiple stab wounds to her chest

34:43

and a noose made a flyer.

34:45

Were. Found close to her body. Simone.

34:48

Was also an experienced traveler.

34:50

She traveled solo through Yugoslavia,

34:52

Canada, and Alaska. She had

34:54

arrived in Australia in October,

34:56

nineteen ninety. Parts. Around for

34:58

that and then hopped over to New Zealand

35:00

and then back again to Sydney on the

35:02

nineteenth of January. Just. Like Caroline,

35:04

Joanne, Deborah, and James. Simone.

35:07

Had left Sydney with the intention of

35:09

hitchhiking to Melvin Sessions Never seen again.

35:12

Three days after the discovery of Simone

35:14

to more German travelers who discovered in

35:17

the forest on the system November. This.

35:19

Search team were doing a much better job

35:21

than the last because they were actually finding

35:24

a fucking shit ton of bodies like quite

35:26

quickly. If imagine how embarrassing it would be

35:28

as the Chief of Command of New South

35:30

Wales with oh yeah, you know that far

35:32

as we said that we search months ago.

35:35

yeah fuckin hexa dead bodies in there that

35:37

we must make on my god yeah they're

35:39

popping up all over the fucking place and

35:41

they're so obvious as well. They're so badly

35:44

hit in the gun. Cottages are everywhere. There's

35:46

like new says just lying around. No one

35:48

was like. Our found that

35:50

it really does boggle the mind.

35:53

So. This first body of the

35:55

two more German travelers that they found

35:57

was that as an yeah have shit.

36:00

And your spine had been severed by a

36:02

knife. And. Have go with

36:04

completely missing. She. Was identified

36:06

by her ankle bands and jewelry.

36:09

That. Is so fucking movie that really makes

36:11

me think like it when I went travelling

36:13

I should have worn like a fucking identity

36:15

something and I didn't have anything. God if

36:18

I ever have children and they want to

36:20

go traveling when they're teenagers I'll be like

36:22

you have to that an identity with fan.

36:25

Belt. Fuckin Anklet toe ring,

36:27

everything present. tattoos. I always held a

36:29

few pleasures rotted away. This is the

36:31

thing is, some is gonna stand the

36:33

test of time. That's what you need.

36:35

That's what I'll tell him. As

36:37

I'm talking, the men. Always

36:40

wear an ankle bracelet his skin

36:42

or feals Ill for my office

36:44

mustn't beloved in a second. says.

36:47

Goodnight. I.

36:51

Lent of blue and yellow rope would

36:53

loot tied at both ends. With.

36:55

Also discovered just a stone's throw

36:57

from on your body. The.

36:59

Twenty one year old had been missing

37:01

since January Nineteen Ninety two. She was

37:04

traveling with a twenty two year old

37:06

boyfriend. Gave. And Neugebauer. They.

37:08

Were supposed to return to their native Germany

37:10

on the twenty fourth of January, but they

37:12

never showed up. And there was no

37:15

evidence that they even made it to the

37:17

airport. Gave. Her an idea

37:19

had left the original backpackers hostile and

37:21

Kings Cross in Sydney on Boxing Day.

37:23

Ninety Ninety Two, Headed off on

37:25

a hitchhiking journey that they were hoping

37:27

would conclude in Darwin. And you guessed

37:29

it, They. Were never seen again.

37:32

So. After his son didn't show up

37:34

gave us parents actually had flown to

37:36

Sydney. And hired a camper van to

37:38

try and retrace. I phone. But.

37:40

They had no luck outside of

37:43

Sydney. That. And body was discovered

37:45

just sixty meters from the of his

37:47

girlfriend. And yeah, it was covered in

37:49

debris. And. Have six bullet holes in

37:51

the skull. Once. Again, they

37:53

were twenty two caliber Winchester bullet. Cables.

37:56

Money belt was discovered containing traveler's

37:59

checks and. airline tickets for both

38:01

him and Anya as well as their

38:03

student ID cards. A

38:05

length of black insulation tape with two

38:07

loops fashioned at either end showed up

38:10

again not far from the body. So

38:12

the rope and the like black tape

38:14

stuff it seemed like the handcuffs right they're

38:17

just like found near the body. I

38:19

think it's for like to

38:21

wrap around their neck and strangle them so

38:24

you've got two hand holders. Oh

38:26

my god. And no attempt to

38:28

hide it or anything? No. So

38:31

it was starting to look a lot like

38:33

the press were going to get the serial

38:35

killer they wanted. The MO is very specific

38:37

and consistent and the police now had seven

38:39

bodies killed in the same way while doing

38:41

the same thing with the same type of

38:43

bullets in the same neck of the woods.

38:45

Or rather the same neck of the Bellanglo

38:47

State Forest which spans 3,800 hectares which sounds

38:49

like a lot, I don't know if it

38:51

is a lot, I'm assuming it's large. But

38:54

the first thing if you Google

38:56

the Bellanglo State Forest the

38:59

first thing on the Wikipedia page is

39:01

the subtitle Murders. Like there's nothing else,

39:04

nothing else about it. Like I think they

39:06

might want to hire a PR team

39:08

or something. Oh my god.

39:11

That is so Australian. I hope, I would

39:13

love to edit this Wikipedia page and add

39:15

to it because I would just love it

39:17

to be Bellanglo State Forest Murders and then

39:19

immediately under poisonous animals. Or should I say

39:22

venomous animals? I know it's venomous not poisonous.

39:24

Let's add that in too. We

39:27

are so excited to get our latest

39:29

parcel in from Hill House. I've

39:31

picked up the AIMS chef kit and

39:33

matching skirt and I'm buzzing to try

39:35

them on. And don't just take my

39:37

word for it, everyone from Olivia Rodrigo

39:39

to Taylor Swift herself have been spotted

39:41

wearing Hill House. The website has loads

39:43

of cute clothes but what's really

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task force, the new swanky task force with the people who

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could actually do their jobs, upped the rewards of $500,000. And

41:56

the tips, unsurprisingly, started to flood

41:58

in. Hotlines were overwhelmed. And while the

42:00

operators were deciphering what were legitimate tips

42:03

and what weren't, the officers on the

42:05

ground attempted to find where the 22-caliber

42:07

Winchester bullets had come from. A cardboard

42:09

ammunition box with a batch number had

42:11

been discovered at the scene of Anya

42:13

and Gaber's murders, which might sound like

42:15

a super clue, but it's actually a

42:17

bit more complicated and a bit more

42:19

denture-entry-based than that. The batch

42:22

number referred to 320,000 bullets

42:24

smashing the numbers today. And

42:29

these bullets were sold in 55 outlets

42:31

between the 2nd of June 1988 and the 3rd of

42:34

November 1988, in 28 New South Wales outlets. So

42:39

all the detectives could really determine from

42:41

that was the killer was probably in

42:43

New South Wales, which we kind of

42:46

already knew. What's more important

42:48

than the bullet batch number is the

42:50

indentation that the killer's gun left on

42:52

the bullets it shot. This

42:54

analysis revealed that the killer's gun had

42:57

a loose pin that left a graze

42:59

on each bullet it shot, which meant

43:01

that the rifle had to have been

43:04

a 22-caliber Ruger rifle with a 10-round

43:06

magazine that were only sold between 1964

43:08

and 1982. I

43:12

am sure I've got some gun stuff wrong there.

43:14

Don't at me. So it's still

43:16

a pretty large sample group to be working with, but

43:18

it's better than nothing. It's better

43:20

than a 22-caliber gun. The next logical

43:23

step taken by police, probably informed by

43:25

the criminal profiler, was to ask around

43:27

local gun clubs, which seemed like they

43:29

shouldn't be allowed, and they

43:31

were asking at these gun clubs if anyone

43:33

had seen anything suspicious or murdery recently. We're

43:36

at a gun club? What does that mean?

43:39

Shooting ranges really stress me

43:41

out because there is literally

43:43

nothing stopping people from shooting each

43:45

other apart from social construction. There's nothing.

43:48

Someone could just turn around and kill everyone

43:50

within seconds. I hate it. Hate it.

43:53

I guess different countries, you're much more used to

43:55

that. The idea of walking around and even seeing

43:57

a police officer with a gun. If I'm at

43:59

King's Cross... And I don't know, sometimes

44:01

on anniversaries of terror attacks and stuff, they'll

44:03

have like, police officers with big fucking guns

44:06

in King's Cross, but like, generally our police

44:08

officers do not carry guns. And

44:10

when I see it, I'm like, oh

44:13

my god, what world is this? You could

44:15

just shoot me. Yeah, yeah. So I have

44:17

exactly the same experience whenever I see like,

44:19

an armed police officer. I'm like, oh,

44:21

horrible. Yeah, it's very unusual

44:23

here. But I will say, I'm seeing a lot more of

44:26

them recently. So they're at

44:28

the gun clubs and on the 16th

44:30

of October 1993, Detective Kevin Hammond got

44:32

a little bit more than he bargained

44:35

for, in the shape of 52-year-old local

44:37

gun enthusiast Alex Milat. Alex

44:39

told the detective that on the 26th of

44:41

April, he and his friend had been out

44:43

shooting stuff. They were slowly driving

44:45

in the direction of the Belanglo State Forest

44:48

and they were going slowly to avoid hitting

44:50

any stray kangaroos or wallabies that might be

44:52

crossing the road at that particular time in

44:54

the afternoon. And as they

44:56

were driving so slowly, they were able

44:58

to get a really good look at

45:00

any other vehicles on the road. Pretty

45:03

superhuman look, in fact. Because

45:06

Alex Milat told Detective Kevin that he

45:08

had seen two vehicles headed towards the

45:10

Belanglo State Forest at 4pm. The

45:14

first, he said, was a brown 1980 Ford Falcon. And

45:17

the second was a Nissan Navara that was

45:20

beige on top and brown on the bottom.

45:22

In fact, Australians called

45:25

people carriers, people movers.

45:27

Isn't that great? I thought you'd like

45:29

that. That is great. That is great. I

45:32

love that. I love it. Ugly white people movers. Just

45:35

like a moving company that you

45:38

can hire so your wife

45:40

doesn't fall in love with the mover. I

45:42

don't know. That's not good enough. So

45:46

according to Alex Milat, the driver of

45:48

the first car was thin, white and

45:51

had a big nose and a

45:53

prominent Adam's apple, bright orange hair

45:56

and mutton chops with a tattooed

45:58

left hand. I can't. If

46:01

you're going to lie, make

46:03

it more generic. It's like

46:05

Mr Bean's holiday or something

46:08

where he like describes, or

46:10

like has to draw a picture of a criminal and it's

46:12

just this like completely outlandish person with

46:14

like banana shaped scars and like two

46:17

eye patches etc. And that's like he's

46:19

not even trying. No, it's just completely

46:21

moronic. I think people think that it

46:23

will make the police go on this

46:26

wild hunt looking for someone who looks

46:28

really bizarre. But like why don't people

46:30

understand that you describe someone who's like

46:32

five foot ten white man with mousy

46:35

brown hair. That's going to be way

46:37

harder to look for. Yeah,

46:39

don't describe a very distinctive person.

46:42

Yeah, but that's what they go for. They

46:44

even gave this guy, you know, a not

46:47

very nice skin condition. They also said he had very

46:49

prominent acne. So this poor man,

46:51

poor made up man, they

46:53

also said that there was another man

46:56

in the passenger seat and he was

46:58

holding a four ten model shotgun with

47:00

a barrel pointing upwards. As

47:02

you're taking all of that in, please remember that

47:04

Alex Milat said that he had seen all of

47:06

this while he was driving

47:08

past this vehicle. But slowly because

47:10

of the wallabies. So eagle eyed

47:12

Alex Milat didn't have much else to say about the

47:15

men, as if, you know, that wasn't good enough. But

47:18

he said that he got an even better

47:20

look at the woman in the back seat,

47:22

who he described as having long mousy hair

47:25

and being in her twenties. And

47:27

he said that this woman tried to attract

47:29

attention. Apparently she

47:32

had a honey colored bit of

47:34

material wrapped around her mouth. I

47:37

mean, fuck me. That's a lot

47:39

of detail. And he

47:41

continues with the details because he

47:43

said that the second car was being driven

47:46

by a clean looking man, who

47:48

Alex Milat claimed couldn't have been a

47:50

laborer going by the state of his

47:52

hands. Alex Milat thought that the driver

47:54

must have been an office worker. Unlike

47:56

the ginger mutton shop man, this dark

47:59

haired person. was totally clean

48:01

shaven. For context Alex Milat and

48:03

all of his family are labourers.

48:06

I think I say they all had mutton shots. But

48:08

I mean also quite a lot of them do to be

48:10

honest but he's just like no absolutely

48:12

nothing to do with people like me

48:14

very clean officey type. Those fucking city

48:16

slickers coming down here murdering

48:19

people in the Belanglo Forest. And

48:22

so yeah he's giving all this detail about this

48:24

made-up office driver who's driving this car but he

48:26

also said there was a woman in the back

48:28

of this car too who also

48:30

had a honey coloured gag

48:32

around her mouth but he

48:35

made it clear that he didn't think it

48:37

was the same material as the gag that

48:39

had been around the woman in the first

48:41

car's mouth. I mean it's good to be

48:43

sure details pay. Yeah it's good to be

48:45

specific except when you're lying in which case

48:47

you should be as vague as you possibly

48:49

can. But it didn't stop

48:52

Alex Milat because he also claimed

48:54

that although he couldn't manage to

48:56

remember the whole number plate he

48:58

did mention that the combinations ALD537

49:01

and ALODAL

49:03

and ACL

49:06

had significance to

49:08

him. And that's a quote

49:10

he specifically says has significance to

49:13

him. Sounds very very

49:15

specific but in actual fact

49:18

it is about as useful as your

49:20

ex-boyfriend's apologies. It's like he's so careful

49:22

to give like such detail that he's

49:24

like oh it'll sound like I'm telling

49:26

the truth if I remember these extremely specific

49:28

things but like it's just

49:30

enough to sound specific it's completely

49:32

useless. So Alex Milat told Detective Kevin

49:35

that he had assumed that these men were

49:37

taking these girls into the forest to quit

49:39

have a good time with and therefore saw

49:42

no need to report it to the police at the

49:44

time. People look lost in the forest

49:46

all the time he said so he

49:48

didn't see why this would be any different.

49:50

The gags and the wide-eyed stares from the

49:52

women in the car didn't seem to point

49:54

him in any particular direction when

49:57

Milat had finished this extraordinarily detailed

49:59

story. he identified the women that

50:01

he had seen as being Caroline Clark

50:04

and Joanne Walters by picking the young

50:06

women's photos out of a

50:08

line up. So not only

50:10

were they in the back of a car that

50:12

you were travelling past in another car, they also

50:14

had gags covering half their faces that he's able

50:16

to pick them out of a fucking line up.

50:19

If you can tell from our

50:21

rivers of sarcastic tone and textbook

50:23

trademark charm and wit, if you

50:25

are also thinking that this encounter

50:27

is too incredibly detailed to be

50:29

true, you're absolutely right, it is

50:31

total bollocks. All the parts of

50:33

the story were pretty inconsequential, there

50:35

were lots of details but none

50:37

of them are specific enough to be

50:39

helpful. And although Alex Milat did positively

50:41

identify Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters when he

50:44

was shown their pictures, it's not actually

50:46

that impressive when you consider that everyone

50:48

in New South Wales knew what the

50:50

girls looked like because their pictures had

50:52

been in the papers for months. And

50:55

equally, he could have known what

50:57

they looked like because he was involved in

50:59

their killing rather than just spotting them from

51:01

a car window. We

51:03

think that Alex Milat told this particular story

51:06

for one of the following reasons. One,

51:08

he made the whole thing up to get his hands on $500,000. Two, he

51:10

was involved in the murders and

51:14

trying to throw the police off the scent.

51:16

Or three, he actually had nothing to do

51:18

with the murders but he wanted to protect

51:21

the killer. And there was someone

51:23

else who was swinging their dick around

51:25

talking about dead backpackers in the Belanglo

51:27

State Forest called Paul Thomas Miller. Miller

51:29

was drunk and violent most of the

51:31

time. Ever since Easter 1992, he had been

51:34

telling his drinking buddies and his colleagues

51:37

that he knew who had murdered, quote,

51:39

the Germans and that there were way

51:41

more bodies to be found in the

51:43

forest that the police had missed. Investigators

51:46

were alerted to Miller after he told

51:48

a concerned friend that stabbing a woman

51:50

was like slicing a loaf of bread.

51:53

After that revelation, officers did

51:55

some digging and it was

51:57

revealed that Paul Thomas Miller

51:59

wasn't Paul Thomas Miller at all,

52:02

his real name was Richard

52:04

Milat. Could I just say quickly about the

52:06

whole stabbing a woman being like a loaf

52:08

of bread? It reminds me of the

52:10

40 year old virgin when they were talking about

52:12

sex and he's like, what's a woman's booty like?

52:15

Feels like a bag of sand and they're like,

52:17

what? So you've never touched a woman's breast

52:19

then. Oh man. So

52:22

his name is Richard Milat and he is

52:24

no distant cousin. He is

52:27

Alex Milat's brother. And

52:29

the two of them have a

52:31

lot more brothers. There are 10

52:33

Milat brothers and a total of

52:36

14 Milat children. Bloody hell. So

52:39

their dad is from Croatia and emigrated. I think

52:41

their father was one of 25. Wow.

52:44

I don't think they all survived to adulthood, but like there

52:46

were just fucking loads of them. Well, you

52:49

know, I don't even know what to say about that

52:51

woman. Well done for being

52:53

so fertile and strong.

52:56

I fucking know. So

52:59

of the current Milat family in Australia, not

53:01

in Croatia, none of them really went

53:03

to school and they seemed to all be

53:06

in and out of trouble. There are various

53:08

interviews with various different Milats on the internet

53:10

for you to pursue at your leisure. One

53:13

of the Milat brothers is called George

53:15

and George really likes guns. And

53:18

one of the documentaries on this case, I don't think

53:20

it's the 60 minutes one, this

53:22

is the other one. You can watch George

53:24

talk about guns for about 10 minutes. I

53:27

have never found Australians particularly difficult to understand.

53:29

And I grew up watching Neighbours every

53:31

day. I struggle

53:33

so hard to follow

53:36

what that man is saying. And

53:38

I can't even put my finger on it. Like I

53:40

don't know whether he's mumbling or whether I just don't

53:43

understand some of the words he's using, but I really

53:45

like, I had to concentrate and watch it like three

53:47

times to like get the gist of what he was

53:49

saying. But I eventually figured it

53:51

out. And it turns out George's favorite gun is

53:53

a big old rifle that belonged to his brother,

53:56

Ivan, who we met as

53:58

he terrorized poor onions at the beginning. of this

54:00

episode. George refers to Ivan

54:02

as the big fella which,

54:05

okay, charming, charming

54:07

family nickname, why not? So

54:10

all of the Mille L'Arts

54:12

were very well known to

54:15

the police for general misbehaving,

54:17

robbery, drunkenness, etc etc etc.

54:19

But it seems as if Ivan, although

54:22

not the eldest brother, was actually

54:24

top dog. I mean yeah, he's

54:26

the one called the big fella

54:28

so there you go, he's the

54:30

apex of this little brood. As

54:33

a child his younger sister Margaret

54:35

had died in his arms after

54:38

a car accident and apparently, according

54:40

to everyone, after that Ivan had

54:42

become hardened. He bullied his

54:45

other siblings, became obsessed with violence and

54:47

guns. Everything about Ivan was controlled, he

54:49

didn't drink, his house was immaculate, he

54:51

was obsessed with his appearance, he didn't

54:54

get into brawls but he

54:56

did consistently sleep with

54:58

all of his brother's wives. Like

55:00

all of them, all of them and

55:03

I think he's like fathered a

55:05

couple of children that have been raised by his

55:07

brothers and his brothers have believed that they're theirs

55:09

and they're actually not and it's like consistently all

55:11

of them and one of them's called Maureen who's

55:14

interviewed on 60 Minutes and the interviewer who I

55:16

have my issues with that I'll go into later on

55:18

but the interview is like asking her with her relationship with

55:20

Ivan and like how she remembers him and this lady's

55:22

like obviously like had some fucking shit happen to

55:24

her and she's just like oh I just

55:26

want to remember him as the person I knew who was really

55:28

nice. Okay Maureen, fuck

55:31

I love that she's like I just don't want

55:34

to hear that bit. I mean he was just

55:36

nice to me and that's the

55:38

main thing. You know what that is

55:40

my least favorite argument of people who are like

55:42

oh I just think feminism's gone a bit too

55:44

far and I'm like okay firstly please just get

55:46

in the bin but second there was oh I'm

55:48

just nice to everyone if you're nice to me

55:50

I'll be nice to you and I'm like shut

55:52

up try

55:55

harder get a better argument that's

55:57

such a cop-out. Fuck. Brilliant And

55:59

I Think this is. My back to what you

56:01

were saying earlier about him being authentic

56:03

Think a psychopath. He is very very

56:05

controlled and his behavior he's not acting

56:07

of the strictly, he's not drawing attention

56:09

to himself. He remained completely com calculated,

56:11

in control and it reminds me of

56:14

people like Ian Watkins say when we

56:16

covered that case of our back and

56:18

how everybody else is in the party

56:20

scene and I know he fell into

56:22

that later the how he never drank

56:24

a fast because he rather be in

56:26

control. So. It seems the

56:28

Ivens criminal record kicked off with

56:30

a breaking and entering charge in

56:33

nineteen sixty Four. Then in Nineteen

56:35

Seventy one he was charged with

56:37

rape. A lot of the

56:39

sources that you'll read about this case

56:41

say the i haven't escaped jail time

56:43

on a conviction on this rape charge

56:45

because of a quote technicality. However,

56:48

That. Is not true at all. He got

56:50

away with it. Because. Of the

56:52

Patriarchy Patriotic? like? say, probably?

56:55

Oh yeah, Patriarchy is not

56:57

a technicality. It's. Just a state of

56:59

being. So. On the tenth

57:01

of April, Nineteen Seventy one Ivan Mellat

57:03

picked up to eighteen year old hitchhikers

57:06

poor Margaret and greater. He agreed to

57:08

drive them from Liverpool to Canberra. That

57:10

on the way, he pulled over into

57:13

the forest and told the girls quite.

57:15

You know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to kill

57:17

the both of you. You. Won't stream and I

57:20

could have prayed for you. Either one

57:22

of you have sex with me or I will

57:24

Kill you. Said. Margaret. Said that she

57:26

would have sex with Ivan as long as he promised

57:28

to let them go. And this

57:31

was ruled by the court

57:33

to be consensual sex. And

57:36

Eisenman that. Was not

57:38

convicted of rape like oh my

57:40

thoughts when I read that was

57:42

like I'm not even remotely surprised,

57:44

but like. Bargaining. Sex

57:47

to save your life and a

57:49

life of your friend doesn't sound

57:51

particularly. Consensual to made. Less

57:53

is move on. I can't even fucking bring

57:55

myself to say anything about this or gets

57:57

worse than experts. Even worse, I know. x.

58:00

And yes, it does get very

58:03

much worse because Margaret's

58:05

sexuality was called into

58:07

question in the courtroom. She

58:09

was portrayed as an extremely

58:12

promiscuous person just because

58:14

she admitted to occasionally

58:17

fancying girls. I literally wish

58:19

I was making this up but it was the

58:21

defence lawyer has written a

58:23

book that's called I Am What

58:25

I Am. Yeah, disgusting. He's like,

58:27

I'm not proud of what I

58:30

did but at

58:32

the time being a lesbian

58:34

was really stigmatised and she'd admitted

58:36

to not being a swinger but

58:38

just being in a sexually liberated

58:40

scene and that was enough to

58:42

turn the jury against her. Oh my god, if she's got

58:44

off with a girl, she must be

58:47

having sex with absolutely everybody and also

58:49

it's okay to rape her. Yeah, a

58:51

sexually liberated lesbian or a

58:54

sexually liberated bi woman, she

58:56

can't possibly be raped. She must have loved

58:58

it. And also it's not even the olden

59:00

times coverage that calls it a technicality. The

59:03

60 Minutes thing came out in like 2018

59:05

or some shit and they're like, oh, we got

59:08

off on a technicality. No, fuck you. No, I

59:10

hate that. A technicality. 60 Minutes

59:12

is fucking trash. It is

59:14

trash. Honestly, honestly though.

59:17

It's awful but I do watch it. I

59:19

mean, not like for jokes. I've watched it

59:22

for the show. So anyway, if

59:24

we skip back up to the 90s,

59:26

Ivan Malat was right back in the

59:28

police's crosshairs because of his

59:31

brothers drawing attention to themselves with

59:33

those wildly detailed witness statements

59:35

and of course, because of our old

59:38

pal, Paul Onions. Chutney

59:40

Chum, I should say, come

59:43

on, hello. Joanne Berry, the woman who had saved

59:45

Paul Onions that day back in 1990, had

59:48

seen all of the coverage of the forest

59:50

backpacker murders and she rang Paul, who was

59:52

living back in England, to suggest that he

59:54

help with the investigation. Paul Onions, the upstanding

59:56

member of society that he is, did just

59:58

that. He rang them up, told the and what

1:00:00

happened, where it happened, and when it happened, and then

1:00:02

he was flown to Australia in 1994 so

1:00:05

he could give a proper interview as the

1:00:07

record of his original one had magically disappeared.

1:00:09

After he retold his harrowing story, Paul Onions

1:00:12

picked up Ivan and Milat out of a

1:00:14

photo lineup, and that was all the police

1:00:16

needed to start surveilling Ivan Milat's house. Ivan

1:00:19

Milat, being the controlling guy

1:00:21

that he is, he had this security system

1:00:23

at his house that he was meticulous with

1:00:26

turning on. So they're like, we can't sneak

1:00:28

around when he's not there. We have to

1:00:30

do a raid, essentially. And the police were

1:00:32

extremely worried that Ivan would clock that they

1:00:34

were onto him because as the

1:00:36

investigation was going, the press were just all

1:00:39

over this the whole time, and as the

1:00:41

investigation was ongoing, I think it was Four

1:00:43

Corners, which I believe is the Australian panorama,

1:00:45

Four Corners did a documentary on the investigation,

1:00:47

and in one of the shots in a

1:00:49

blackboard in the police station, the name

1:00:51

Milat is visible in a shot,

1:00:53

and that's broadcast at the time of

1:00:55

the investigation, and then someone saw it and

1:00:57

it got taken down and now it's out,

1:01:00

but it was broadcast on national television during

1:01:02

the investigation, his name, on

1:01:04

a corner of a blackboard. So that

1:01:06

happened. They were super worried about it, but

1:01:09

they didn't really need to be because even

1:01:11

when Ivan was tipped off that the police

1:01:13

were looking into him, he really didn't care.

1:01:15

He was the type of man who was

1:01:17

so convinced of how amazing he was that

1:01:19

he could talk his way out of anything.

1:01:21

After all, it worked with Margaret in 1971,

1:01:25

and also evidence of his psychopathic status,

1:01:27

in my view. Nothing bothers him.

1:01:30

The task force knew that they

1:01:32

might have been rumbled because of

1:01:34

the documentary snafu, but they pressed

1:01:36

on and organised synchronised raids of

1:01:38

Ivan's house and multiple other Milat

1:01:40

properties. These raids revealed a

1:01:43

multitude of items that had belonged

1:01:45

to the seven victims found in

1:01:47

the forest. There were water bottles,

1:01:49

rutsops, items of clothing, sleeping bags,

1:01:51

cups, camping stoves, all later

1:01:53

confirmed by parents to be the property of

1:01:55

their murdered children. Police also

1:01:57

uncovered a postcard addressed to Bill Milat.

1:02:00

which is the name Ivan had used when

1:02:02

abducting poor onions. When asked why

1:02:04

he and his family had all of these items

1:02:06

that belonged to people who had been found brutally

1:02:08

murdered in the forest, Ivan just said he didn't

1:02:10

know. And that frustratingly blunt answer

1:02:13

is the only one Ivan Milat ever

1:02:15

gives. He's just like, I don't know.

1:02:17

See, he's smart. He's smart because

1:02:19

he's like, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna

1:02:21

say anything. I'm not gonna give you some detailed

1:02:23

lie about, you know, I went to a fucking

1:02:25

jumble sale and bought them there. He's just like,

1:02:28

no idea. They're like, why is this

1:02:30

all here? And he's like, you tell me. At

1:02:34

Ivan's 76 year old mum's house,

1:02:36

police found a 22 caliber rifle

1:02:38

with the name Ivan literally engraved

1:02:40

on it. And either this

1:02:42

rifle or one of the bajillions that was

1:02:44

found at the various Milat houses displayed the

1:02:46

fault that would have produced the irregular indentation

1:02:48

on the bullets found at the scenes of

1:02:50

the murders. And Ivan just said he had

1:02:52

no idea how the rival got there or why it could

1:02:54

have been used in the multiple murders. He's like, oh, if

1:02:56

it was used, I don't know. No

1:02:59

idea, mate. I've got like 36

1:03:01

brothers. Go ask them. Yeah, right. Exactly.

1:03:03

A hair that was later

1:03:05

identified as being Caroline Clark's was

1:03:08

found on a pillowcase in one of

1:03:10

the Milat properties. Hundreds of

1:03:12

evidence exhibits were taken from the

1:03:14

houses, including lengths of electrical tape

1:03:16

that had been fashioned into garats

1:03:19

with handles at both ends. So those

1:03:21

are the ones that I thought were handcuffs, but they're not

1:03:23

like the Hannah said, they're garats. Ivan

1:03:25

was arrested and the lengthy process

1:03:27

of getting to trial began. Now

1:03:30

we won't bore you with all of the details, but

1:03:33

Ivan Milat opted to, of

1:03:35

course, you guessed it, represent

1:03:38

himself for a bit. But

1:03:40

then he changed his mind. At no

1:03:42

stage in the trial did Milat

1:03:45

ever admit to anything. His

1:03:47

defense argument depended entirely on convincing the

1:03:49

judge and jury to doubt whether the

1:03:51

murders were actually carried out by Ivan.

1:03:53

It's so weird. They're like, yeah, of

1:03:56

course, like we can't deny that these

1:03:58

murders definitely happened there with super brutal and that

1:04:01

their stuff is in the Mille L'Ache houses, prove

1:04:03

it with him and not one of the other

1:04:05

ones. Exactly. The defence argued that

1:04:07

the murders could have been carried out by any

1:04:09

one of the Mille L'Ache brothers, if

1:04:11

not a combination of several of them. The

1:04:13

defence were trying to create a world in

1:04:15

which Ivan didn't commit the murders, but that

1:04:17

perhaps somebody close to him did. This

1:04:20

narrative was of course undermined by

1:04:22

the vast amount of the victims'

1:04:24

belongings being in Ivan's house specifically,

1:04:26

and only a few bits being

1:04:28

found in other family members' homes.

1:04:30

This option comes from the quite

1:04:33

unhelpful analysis from the criminal profiler

1:04:35

that suggested there were two killers.

1:04:37

The police confirmed that there was no evidence

1:04:40

to support that there was more than one

1:04:42

killer, that the original analysis of

1:04:44

a brotherly killing team just

1:04:46

refused to die. The

1:04:48

prosecution had heaps and heaps of evidence.

1:04:51

Although it was circumstantial, there was enough of

1:04:53

it to be significant. The trial

1:04:56

drudged on for 18

1:04:58

weeks, always following the

1:05:00

same pattern, Ivan Mille L'Ache being

1:05:02

presented with a piece of evidence that made

1:05:04

him look extremely fucking connected to the murders,

1:05:07

and him just simply denying any

1:05:09

knowledge or understanding of the situation.

1:05:12

The defining moment of the trial was when

1:05:14

Ivan was asked about a pair of gloves

1:05:16

that had been found in his home. It

1:05:18

was the end of a long day and

1:05:21

a tired and exasperated Ivan exclaimed, I never

1:05:23

wore no, and then stopped

1:05:25

himself. The

1:05:28

lawyer for the prosecution then followed up, do

1:05:30

you mean you never wore gloves in the

1:05:32

forest? Again, it's like a courtroom

1:05:34

scene from that crappy film we were making

1:05:36

up. Literally, literally that. I never wore no-

1:05:38

Wait a minute. Gasp,

1:05:41

a shudder throughout the courtroom. Court

1:05:44

adjourned. Caroline Clarke's father actually

1:05:46

described this moment as the tide really

1:05:48

started to turn. There was something about

1:05:50

it that convinced the jury of Ivan's

1:05:52

guilt. And just like

1:05:54

that, after 18 weeks of

1:05:57

trudgery, Mille L'Ache was convicted of seven counts

1:05:59

of murder. and one count of abduction in 1996.

1:06:03

And he was sent to prison for the rest of his life. A

1:06:05

life that ended in October 2019 when

1:06:07

he died of esophageal and stomach cancer at the age of

1:06:10

74. Obviously terrible guy,

1:06:12

but stomach cancer is a fucking horrible way

1:06:14

to go. And never once

1:06:16

did he confess. And I

1:06:18

actually think that's a major reason that he's

1:06:20

often overlooked by true crime fans. Like

1:06:22

the stories that get the most press

1:06:24

are like Kempers, Bundy's, Dahmer's, Nilfons. People

1:06:26

who give lengthy detailed confessions because that's

1:06:28

what we really want. Like the only

1:06:30

reason we know Ed Kemper fucked his

1:06:32

own mum's head is because he told

1:06:35

us so himself. Yeah, I think it's

1:06:37

definitely the confessions. And you know, Nilfons

1:06:39

like wrote fucking journal after journal after

1:06:41

journal when he was in prison. But

1:06:43

I also think it's because Kemper had

1:06:45

his crazy fucking relationship with his mum.

1:06:47

Bundy had, you know, all of the

1:06:49

stuff that Bundy had that everyone was

1:06:51

fucking obsessed with. Nilfons had the whole

1:06:53

fucking fancy dress and Dahmer had a fucking fridge

1:06:55

full of dicks. And I think it was

1:06:58

like the backstory that all of them had as well.

1:07:00

Whereas with Ivan Malat, there's no clear

1:07:02

motivation. There's no clear like backstory apart from

1:07:04

like his sister dying in a car accident

1:07:06

that made him all like hardened to the

1:07:09

world. I think that's why people don't

1:07:11

get their teeth into the Malat case, I think. Totally,

1:07:13

but like there could have been all of these fucked

1:07:15

up things that happened to him. We just don't know

1:07:17

because he never spoke to anyone. We just don't know

1:07:20

because he didn't confess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And none of

1:07:22

his family have ever spoken out. Like there's no sort

1:07:24

of interviews with his mum when she's like, oh yeah,

1:07:26

actually, I did put his head in a blender. They're

1:07:28

very closed ranks, the Malat. Also,

1:07:31

there's no like psychological assessments or anything that we

1:07:33

have any access to because he's literally

1:07:35

just never, ever spoken to anyone ever. He just is

1:07:37

like, I don't know. So

1:07:40

the play by play, which everyone finds

1:07:42

so interesting in this case, doesn't really

1:07:44

exist. Well, no official one exists

1:07:46

anyway. The Malat family have been in and

1:07:48

out of the press for the past 30

1:07:51

years, often giving interviews about

1:07:53

Ivan's innocence. When asked

1:07:55

what evidence they have to support this theory, they

1:07:58

can offer none. They also... refused

1:08:00

to explain how items that belonged to

1:08:02

seven dead people ended up

1:08:04

in their various houses. But not

1:08:07

all of the 13 other Milats are

1:08:09

on team Ivan as innocent though. According

1:08:12

to mumbling gun lover George, their

1:08:14

now dead mother visited Ivan in

1:08:16

prison and he confessed to her

1:08:18

that he had killed all seven people that he

1:08:20

was accused of killing and that there

1:08:22

were way more buried in the forest that

1:08:24

had never been found. Again, we

1:08:26

have no idea if this is true. Another

1:08:29

Milat, Boris recently gave an interview

1:08:31

again to Australia 60 Minutes condemning

1:08:34

his brother after his death as

1:08:36

a murderous mongrel, saying that his

1:08:38

family had to step up and denounce him for

1:08:40

the serial killer that he was. But

1:08:43

as far as we know, nothing like that has

1:08:45

happened. It's a weird

1:08:48

interview and like Boris is

1:08:50

clearly disturbed by something.

1:08:53

I think he's also got Parkinson's, like he's

1:08:55

shaking, he's old. Like as we

1:08:57

know awkward men make me inside out.

1:09:00

It's so difficult to describe. I'll link it

1:09:02

on YouTube. But like the interviewer

1:09:04

who like I'm not a huge fan of,

1:09:07

she asks him about like the victim and he

1:09:10

starts crying. And I do believe he's really crying.

1:09:12

And then he like stops the interview and comes

1:09:14

back. But then he sort of takes control of

1:09:16

the situation. He starts telling this journalist who's interviewing

1:09:19

him. He's like, oh, you have to change your

1:09:21

line of questioning. Like I'm not going down

1:09:23

that route. It's so bizarre to

1:09:25

watch. Like there is something going on with

1:09:27

Boris. I don't know what

1:09:30

it is. I mean, to be

1:09:32

honest, there seems to be something going on with all

1:09:34

of the Mille Lats. Yeah, I

1:09:36

think we can safely say that. And

1:09:39

the murders have not stopped with

1:09:41

Ivan either. In 2012, Ivan's grandnephew

1:09:44

Matthew Mille Lat went to prison for a

1:09:46

30 year sentence because he murdered

1:09:49

his friends with an axe in the

1:09:51

very same Belanglo State Forest. The

1:09:53

jury was told at trial that after

1:09:55

the murder, Matthew had gloated that murder

1:09:58

was quote, watch the Mille Lats. do.

1:10:01

I don't think it is completely outside the

1:10:04

realms of possibility that other Mille Lats were

1:10:06

involved. I think there are definitely

1:10:08

more bodies that haven't been found. Even

1:10:10

the police are like we think there are three or four it

1:10:13

could be up to 28 that we just don't know about and

1:10:15

there's not enough evidence. I agree and

1:10:17

for Ivan to have dragged another brother into

1:10:19

it he knew I think it wouldn't

1:10:21

have saved him and it would have just implicated

1:10:23

him because he would have actually then confessed so

1:10:25

yeah. Yeah what is interesting though

1:10:28

is that the murders only

1:10:30

happen when Mille Lats didn't have a

1:10:32

girlfriend or wife. Again a

1:10:35

classic from the book. If you'd like to

1:10:37

know more about that and how love and

1:10:40

relationships can change a serial killer then

1:10:42

you should definitely buy our book because

1:10:44

there are two fucking chapters. One

1:10:46

on relationships, one on love, where we

1:10:48

go into depth about how it can

1:10:50

stop some of them kidding and how it can make

1:10:53

some of them even fucking worse. That's

1:10:55

a nice little segue to lead us to

1:10:57

the end of this episode. Hope you all

1:10:59

enjoyed it. Please don't at me about my

1:11:01

Australian accent that I mildly did at the

1:11:04

start. I was just joking. Anyway thank you

1:11:06

all for listening so much. If you are

1:11:08

a patron you can come and hang out

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1:11:28

understand. Classically trained in facial expression.

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And Under the Duvet when it

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started last year you know

1:11:34

it used to be like 20-25 minutes

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long. Under the Duvet episodes are now

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an hour long consistently. Which was not

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is happening and we rage about it.

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It is. So if you

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You will not be disappointed. I feel like you get

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way more than you pay for. It's a

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bargain. This month we've also got a

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fucking banging in the news. That feels

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horrible to say, but it's because there's

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been so many horrible things happening in

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the news that we're gonna talk about

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it, all in our topical news segment

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called In The News. We've also got

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brand new jingles for Under The Duvet

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and In The News. Oh yeah, so

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good. Jingle George. George Bomesma, thank you

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so much for doing a fantastic job

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on putting jingles together for us. They

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are delightful. You're an incredibly talented man.

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We love it, we love you. So

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come listen to all those things. We've

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also got a bonus Patreon episode that

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remember, for all $10 and up patrons

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on the broken arrow killings, which is

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all the plugging I've got to do for now.

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Shall we say thank you to some lovely patrons?

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Let's do that. Thank you

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all of the other stuff we

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do. Absolutely. Goodbye. Bye. you

1:16:00

And when I offered to help Joan, I had

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1:16:13

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