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Modern management made simple.

0:34

From the Center for Investigative Reporting and

0:36

PRX, this is Reveal.

0:38

I'm Michael Schiller, sitting in

0:40

for Al Letson. It's

0:43

June 2023 on a sunny afternoon

0:45

in Denver. Thousands

0:47

of people fill the Colorado Convention

0:49

Center's main theater. There are

0:51

no empty seats in the house. Two

0:54

guys named Rick are on stage, and they couldn't

0:56

look more different from one another. The

0:59

first Rick to step up to the mic is Rick

1:01

Doblin. He's dressed in an all-white

1:03

suit that's glowing under the glare

1:05

of the spotlight. Amazing. The

1:07

future is psychedelic. Welcome

1:10

to the psychedelic 20s. Rick

1:13

Doblin has spent more than three decades

1:16

trying to get psychedelic drugs legalized. The

1:18

organization he leads, the Multidisciplinary

1:21

Association for Psychedelic Studies, or

1:24

MAPS for short, has organized

1:26

this conference. When I think

1:28

about this conference with

1:30

over 12,000 registered people, with

1:34

opening talks by the governor of

1:36

Colorado and over 500 other speakers,

1:39

I can only wonder, am I tripping?

1:45

I think not. It's

1:47

not that I'm tripping, it's that culture is

1:49

tipping. When

1:51

he says the culture is tipping, he's

1:54

talking about what's happening with psychedelic drugs, which

1:56

have been illegal for decades and are now

1:59

beginning to go mainstream. mainstream. Which

2:01

brings us to Rick number two, Rick

2:03

Perry. You got to see the

2:05

light and the white in

2:09

Rick Doblin. I'm the dark,

2:13

knuckle dragging, right

2:16

wing Republican farmer

2:19

governor of the state of Texas. Perry

2:23

was the governor of Texas from 2000

2:26

to 2015 and ran for president

2:28

twice. As governor, he

2:30

backed legislation that would require drug testing

2:32

for people on welfare. These

2:34

days, he's a champion of psychedelic drugs

2:37

and he thinks politicians should get out of the

2:40

way. Let's not look at what

2:42

government tells us. Let's

2:46

not look at what somebody says

2:48

is right wrong. Let's look at

2:50

the results here. Psychedelic

2:53

drugs are having a moment and there's

2:56

growing momentum among lawmakers to make them

2:58

legal again. We

3:00

first brought you this story last year after

3:03

reporter Jonathan A. Davis spent five days at

3:05

the psychedelics conference to find out why people

3:07

from both the left and the

3:09

right are pushing to reverse US

3:12

drug policy and make psychedelic drugs

3:14

like MDMA, mushrooms and LSD legal

3:16

for the first time and more

3:18

than 50 years. And a

3:20

quick heads up. This hour explores mental

3:22

health issues and does include mentions of

3:25

suicide. It's

3:30

psychedelic science 2023. The conference has

3:32

taken over the entire

3:34

Colorado convention center, 2 million

3:36

square feet, a space the size of 38

3:39

football fields. And

3:41

a lot of the 12,000 people walking around,

3:43

they're pretty far out. Like

3:45

this woman who approaches me. She's wearing

3:47

a one piece jumpsuit with a fluffy

3:49

tutu and a rainbow wig. She's

4:01

fixated on my microphone and it's

4:03

fuzzy cover. Filled

4:07

with fluff, isn't it? Mixed

4:10

in with the hippies are policy makers and

4:12

suits, indigenous people wearing

4:14

traditional dress, venture capitalists,

4:17

scientists and researchers, a

4:19

surreal assortment of people. Even

4:21

NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers is here,

4:24

touting his experience with a ceremonial

4:26

brew, a hallucinogen that comes from

4:28

the Amazon known as ayahuasca. My

4:31

first ayahuasca journey, it was in 2020 in

4:33

Peru. Previous

4:36

year, 26 touchdowns, four

4:38

interceptions, ayahuasca, 48

4:41

touchdowns, five interceptions, MVP.

4:48

Psychedelics were being talked about in hushed

4:50

tones even a decade ago, but now

4:53

they're being publicly championed. There's

4:55

a lot of people, they've gone from being

4:57

just recreational drugs to actual medicines. And

5:00

these drugs have shown a lot of

5:02

promise in treating some really challenging mental

5:04

health issues, from depression and anxiety to

5:07

PTSD and addiction, which brings

5:09

us to a group of people who are here in

5:11

full force at the conference, veterans.

5:14

Ayahuasca saved my life. Jared

5:16

Reinhardt is a former Marine and

5:18

he's here at the conference wearing

5:20

his military issue camouflage vest, which

5:22

is now decorated with ayahuasca symbols

5:24

from the Amazon. Jared

5:27

sees psychedelics as the key to

5:29

solving the mental health crisis among

5:31

vets with post-traumatic stress disorder. The

5:33

suicide epidemic that's plaguing my brothers

5:35

and sisters throughout the military is

5:39

stifling. Since 9-11, more than

5:41

30,000 vets have taken

5:43

their lives, four times the number

5:45

killed in combat. The

5:47

Department of Veterans Affairs has tried

5:49

for decades to treat PTSD with

5:52

various medications, but vets

5:54

often complain about being overprescribed and how

5:56

all the pills can sometimes just make

5:58

things worse. struggled

6:00

a lot after his deployments. I

6:02

was really high strung, very violent, very

6:05

aggressive with my words, with my actions.

6:07

I drank all the time when I was home

6:09

on leave from Iraq. And

6:11

then after ayahuasca, none

6:13

of that. Former Texas Governor

6:16

Rick Perry has heard many stories like

6:18

Jared's, and it's made him a believer

6:20

in treating PTSD with psychedelic-assisted therapy. I

6:23

believe in the proof of

6:25

young men who I know and

6:28

who I've seen come back completely

6:31

changed. But I

6:33

don't want to see a blowback. Let's

6:35

go slow. Let's go methodical.

6:38

We're saving lots of lives. To

6:43

understand how we got to this moment

6:45

where conservative lawmakers are now the ones

6:47

worried about a blowback against psychedelics, we've

6:49

got to go back to the last

6:51

time they were legal and widely available.

6:54

After LSD was discovered in the 40s, scientists

6:57

began studying it and other psychedelics

6:59

as possible treatments for alcoholism, depression,

7:01

and other mental health issues. I

7:04

was best. And I

7:07

was inside the earth. This

7:09

woman is one of the principles

7:11

in a controlled scientific investigation of

7:13

LSD. But when these

7:15

drugs went from the research labs to the

7:18

streets, they became a part of the counterculture.

7:20

Turn on, tune

7:23

in, and drop out.

7:25

They fueled the summer of love and

7:28

protests against the war in Vietnam.

7:30

Thousands of demonstrators opposed to the

7:33

Vietnam War. Richard Nixon saw the

7:35

anti-war and black power movements as

7:37

political threats. So he fought back

7:40

with the war on drugs. In order

7:42

to fight and defeat this enemy. The

7:44

war on drugs criminalized possession and use

7:46

of all kinds of drugs. And

7:49

over the years, it's put millions of people

7:51

behind bars, many of them people of

7:53

color. The Controlled

7:55

Substances Act of 1970 categorized

7:57

psychedelics as Schedule 1. one,

8:00

meaning they were dangerous and had

8:02

zero medical value. As

8:05

a result, federal funding for psychedelic

8:07

research dried up. Science

8:11

pretty much ignored psychedelics for almost

8:13

four decades. Then

8:16

in the 2000s, researchers quietly began

8:18

studying psychedelics again with private funding.

8:21

Over time, research increased, and eventually

8:24

a national movement sprung up to

8:26

move psychedelics off schedule one. It's

8:29

been led by Rick Doblin and his organization

8:31

MAPS, who've put on this conference. Their

8:34

first goal is to convince the Food

8:36

and Drug Administration to approve MDMA for

8:38

treating PTSD. MDMA

8:41

is also known as ecstasy or molly.

8:44

And if all goes well, we'll have the

8:46

potential approval by maybe around a

8:48

year from now. If

8:52

MDMA is legalized as a medical treatment

8:55

for PTSD, there's a chance the floodgates

8:57

will open for more psychedelics to become

8:59

available. Even now, more

9:01

than a dozen cities and two

9:03

states have decriminalized psychedelics, making them

9:06

law enforcement's lowest priority. And

9:08

billions of dollars are already being pumped

9:10

into a psychedelic industry that's banking on

9:13

changes to federal drug laws, with

9:15

dozens of companies already trading on the

9:18

Nasdaq and other stock exchanges. There

9:20

are people here at this conference plotting and planning

9:22

on how to make their fortunes from the psychedelic

9:24

boom. Excuse me, I'm turning around. I'm

9:27

making an audio documentary about psychedelics. Can

9:29

I record some audio from your conversation?

9:31

Are you going to put my name

9:33

on it? We don't have

9:35

to. Are we going to end up in a federal

9:37

court? We

9:39

can keep it anonymous. So what I

9:41

was saying here is you want the flavor

9:43

of the beverage to go. But this rush

9:45

for profit does not sit well with some

9:47

people at the convention. During one

9:49

of Rick Doblin's speeches, well, there's

9:52

one other aspect of the arc of the

9:56

a group of indigenous activists start drumming

9:58

and approach the state. They

10:05

get up on stage and Katumi

10:07

Castro, a mental health counselor and

10:09

indigenous practitioner, originally from South America,

10:12

takes the microphone. The

10:14

psychedelic renaissance is not

10:16

really a psychedelic renaissance. We open

10:18

our medicines for you to heal,

10:20

not to take. You're colonizing it.

10:22

Thank you for everything. You're

10:24

damaging us. You're deracing our cultures. Please

10:27

stop. Mushrooms, ayahuasca, peyote,

10:29

they've all been central parts of

10:31

indigenous ceremonies in the Americas for

10:33

thousands of years. And there are

10:35

some who feel that this psychedelic

10:37

renaissance is not respecting their traditions,

10:40

that their sacred medicines are being pushed

10:43

through the meat grinder of American capitalism.

10:47

But the psychedelic medicine movement continues to

10:49

gain momentum. More and

10:52

more politicians, like former Republican Governor

10:54

Rick Perry, are now willing

10:56

to go against the grain. Perry

10:58

supported clinical trials in Texas of

11:00

psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic

11:02

mushrooms. I literally had some friends

11:04

came up and said, what

11:06

are you doing? You've

11:09

spent 40 years of your life building

11:11

your reputation. You're fixing to throw

11:13

it away on this crazy

11:15

idea about psychedelics. And

11:18

I said, my reputation is

11:21

not more important than these young people's

11:23

lives. One

11:26

month before this conference, a bill was proposed

11:28

to fund research on psychedelics for active

11:31

duty military and veterans. The

11:33

co-sponsors included conservative Republicans like

11:36

Dan Crenshaw and Matt Gaetz

11:38

and Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Political

11:42

will to support veterans is now

11:44

driving legislation that would have been

11:46

unthinkable even a decade ago. That

11:52

story was from reporter Jonathan Davis. It

11:56

could take years for psychedelic treatments to

11:58

become widely available. and

12:00

legalization will bring risks. But

12:03

for some, waiting is not an option. When

12:06

we come back, a group of

12:08

veterans and first responders find ways to

12:10

access psychedelics and confront their trauma without

12:13

the help of the VA. That's

12:16

up next on Reveal. It's

12:30

a high-stakes election here, so

12:32

it's not enough to just follow along. You need

12:34

to understand what's happening, so you are fully informed

12:37

in November. Every weekday

12:39

on the NPL Politics Podcast, our

12:41

political reporters break ground from stories

12:43

and back stories from the championship.

12:45

Do you understand why it matters

12:48

to you? Listen to the

12:50

NPL Politics Podcast wherever you get your

12:52

podcasts. From

12:57

the Center for Investigative Reporting and

13:00

PRX, this is Reveal. I'm

13:02

Michael Schiller. In for Owletts. Politicians

13:07

from the far left and far right

13:09

are finally agreeing on something. More

13:11

research needs to be done on how

13:13

psychedelic drugs can help treat veterans with

13:16

PTSD. The

13:18

numbers behind the veterans' mental health crisis

13:20

are staggering. The VA

13:22

estimates that every day, more than 16 veterans

13:25

take their own lives. But

13:28

other studies point to much higher numbers, as

13:30

high as 44 a day. The

13:36

VA is conducting several clinical trials with

13:38

psychedelics. But veterans seeking

13:40

psychedelic therapy now have very few

13:42

options. Some go to

13:45

other countries where psychedelics are less regulated. Others

13:48

are taking them right here in America. They

13:51

say it's their right under the First Amendment of

13:53

the Constitution. That's what

13:55

brings me to Hill Country, about 30 miles

13:57

west of Austin, Texas. A

14:00

heads up that this story mentions suicide

14:02

and may not be appropriate for all

14:04

listeners. If you

14:06

or someone you know is having thoughts of

14:09

suicide, help is available. Call

14:11

or text 988 to reach the 988

14:13

Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Again,

14:15

just call or text 988 for help. Okay,

14:20

here we go. It's

14:26

early in the morning. I'm pulling into Justin

14:28

Lapprie's driveway in a tidy row of houses.

14:31

Justin gets out of his truck. Everything

14:33

about the guy is big. He's

14:35

6'4", 220 pounds. He

14:38

drives a big truck. He lives in a big house. And

14:41

he's got a big, warm smile. What's

14:43

up, brother? Hey,

14:46

what's happening? I'll run in and stop and then we'll hit the road. Alright.

14:49

We hop into Justin's truck. We're heading out to meet up with

14:51

some of his friends for a hike. We're

14:54

just coming together to check in, have

14:56

a mind, body, soul check in with

14:58

each other, see how we can

15:00

support each other. It's a group of

15:02

veterans and first responders. Dear friends

15:04

of mine that I had seen struggle

15:07

over the years of amazing individuals

15:09

that have really just shown

15:12

resilience and courage to

15:15

find their way out of the darkness into the light. That

15:21

path from darkness to light. It's

15:23

one that Justin has spent years traveling. He's

15:26

a veteran of the Marine Corps and finished infantry

15:28

school on September 7th, 2001. And

15:32

then watched tower one fall. And

15:34

then watch tower two fall. It's

15:37

like the world is stopped. Justin

15:39

did two tours in Iraq. The

15:42

first one was at the very beginning of the war. And

15:45

the second one, he fought in the battle of

15:47

Fallujah. We weren't prepared for

15:51

what we rolled into and

15:53

to see the damage and

15:55

the carnage that improvised explosive

15:57

devices do to

15:59

human bodies. They're

16:01

filled with ball bearings

16:03

and flesh is

16:05

really soft. We

16:08

were in combat constantly

16:10

and we had to

16:12

kill people. There

16:15

were women and children that were collateral

16:18

damage, lost a lot of friends. It

16:21

was transformational, but in

16:23

a very bad way. The

16:25

frequent roadside bombings left Justin with

16:27

a traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic

16:29

stress. And so I just went

16:31

into the VA system and

16:36

started taking pills. He

16:38

was homeless in New York City for a while. I

16:40

would sleep under bridges, up in

16:42

the tunnels, on the park. There

16:45

were some ups. He landed a job on Wall Street. I

16:48

got a couple suits, my first suit ever.

16:50

He sold high yield corporate bonds and got

16:52

married. They wanted kids, but they didn't want

16:54

to raise them in Manhattan. He

16:56

missed hunting in Texas and was just burnt out

16:58

on city life. Justin

17:00

and his wife moved back to his home state

17:02

and he joined the Austin Fire Department. And

17:05

I was immediately exposed to

17:08

horrific events. Fatality car crashes,

17:11

serial bomber, porn debt, burnt

17:13

bodies out of cars, mass

17:15

shootings, OD's, suicides like boom,

17:17

boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. During

17:22

a messy divorce, things got really

17:24

dark. A quick note,

17:26

this next part is disturbing. I

17:29

was ready. I didn't want to hurt anymore. I

17:32

just wanted the pain to stop. I

17:35

prayed for peace through

17:37

death. I

17:39

always carry a SIG 45 under

17:41

my dashboard. And

17:43

I had it in my lap and

17:45

I stuck it in my mouth and

17:48

I pulled the trigger and

17:50

the hammer dropped. And

17:53

then there was silence. And

17:57

I opened my eyes and I'm like... What?

18:00

Who wants you to hear? We're

18:07

riding in the same truck Justin attempted suicide

18:09

in a few years ago. The

18:12

gun didn't fire that day because a friend in

18:14

the fire department had seen him spiraling and unloaded

18:17

it. Not long

18:19

after, Justin heard about

18:21

psychedelic-assisted therapy that magic mushrooms might

18:23

actually help him. He

18:26

took an extremely high dose alone in his

18:29

apartment. This is not the

18:31

safest way to do it, but Justin

18:33

was desperate. I was on

18:36

pharmaceuticals for 13 years, just

18:40

throwing another pill with a problem. Nothing

18:43

worked. I almost killed myself on

18:46

all of these medications that are supposed to make

18:49

me feel better. And you're

18:51

telling me one experience with

18:53

mushrooms? You

18:56

changed that? He

18:59

didn't want to die anymore. He didn't

19:01

want to drink anymore. He got off

19:03

all the prescriptions. Justin

19:05

says he found God. I

19:08

came home from war in atheist. And

19:12

that first experience with mushrooms, there

19:15

was a deep knowing God does

19:17

exist. And we

19:20

are all God and

19:22

nature's God. I had a beautiful

19:24

awareness that I'm loved and

19:27

that I am loved

19:30

and that I'm connected with everything. I

19:38

got to start helping my friends. Justin

19:43

started working on an idea, a

19:45

way to let his friends experience what he

19:47

experienced. He founded a

19:50

psychedelic church for veterans and first

19:52

responders using hallucinogenic drugs

19:54

as their holy sacraments. He

19:57

called it heroic path to light. Around

20:00

a year ago, the church held its first ceremony. Exhale

20:03

all the way. Shh. In

20:07

through the nose. Out

20:10

through the nose. In

20:12

through the nose. Out

20:15

through the nose. This

20:17

is audio from a heroic path to light retreat.

20:20

Tune into that shift and change

20:22

as you breathe. You're

20:25

almost there. Slow

20:28

and steady in and out. This

20:34

is how the retreats work. Justin

20:36

and a group of 10 veterans and first responders

20:38

spend a few days at a vacation rental. With

20:42

help from an experienced guide, they

20:44

take large doses of psychedelic drugs,

20:46

starting with psilocybin mushrooms. So

20:49

let's bless these mushrooms. Thank them all. Thank

20:51

their beauty. Thank their wisdom. May they keep

20:53

all the brothers safe. May

20:56

they all be shown exactly what they're supposed to

20:58

be shown. Om han

21:01

han materos kayom tat sua han.

21:05

The next day, they

21:07

smoke another potent psychedelic,

21:09

5-MeO-DMT extracted from toad venom.

21:12

They call it Bufo, short for the Bufo

21:15

Alverious toad. It's

21:17

vaporized in a clear pipe using

21:19

a small propane torch. Good

21:21

job. Go to them. All

21:26

the way to the top. Now take a sip of air. 5-MeO-DMT

21:30

can bring on an experience people

21:33

describe as meeting God or witnessing

21:35

their own death, all in the

21:38

span of a few minutes. You

21:40

are the

21:43

divine. That

21:48

first retreat became the blueprint for Justin's

21:50

vision. What started as

21:52

an idea on a dry erase board with some friends

21:54

has grown to a group of more than 80 people,

21:57

including staff. Katie

22:00

Loro-Higgs helps guide people through the

22:02

experience. I work with

22:04

Heropatholite as their staff therapist,

22:07

so I've helped design the

22:09

preparation and program, as

22:12

well as ensuring that people are in

22:14

a good emotional, mental, psychological state to

22:16

be able to participate in this. Katie

22:18

is a licensed clinical social worker with

22:20

a master's degree from USC. She

22:24

tells me she's facilitated psychedelic therapy for

22:26

more than a thousand veterans and first

22:28

responders, mostly while working

22:30

with other organizations abroad. She's

22:33

seen how these compounds work on mental health

22:35

in unique ways. Psychedelics connect

22:37

us to ourselves or sometimes to

22:40

something outside of ourselves, which you

22:42

could call God or nature or

22:45

people. It cleans

22:47

out the closet and it removes that pair of pants that

22:49

you've been trying to put on again since you were three

22:51

years old that just doesn't fit. And

22:54

for a lot of people, it happens a

22:56

lot faster than traditional therapy because we're going

22:58

in and we're sandblasting the

23:00

trauma so we can see what's underneath

23:02

it. Is this the antidote

23:04

to the veteran suicide crisis that we're

23:06

dealing with as a nation? I think

23:08

it's our best chance at curbing this epidemic. We're

23:12

not going to end it completely.

23:14

That's tragic. But

23:16

what we can do is we can maybe

23:18

create a little bit of hope. There's

23:24

a lot out there these days about the

23:26

benefits of psychedelic therapy, but there

23:29

are risks. So what

23:31

are the dangers of entering into these reality

23:33

shifting states of mind? Whenever

23:35

we talk about psychoactive drug use, any

23:37

drug use, the thing that people must

23:39

always talk about is the

23:42

risk to benefit ratio. Dr.

23:44

Carl Hart is a neuroscientist and

23:46

professor of psychiatry at Columbia University.

23:48

He's also an expert on the

23:50

effects of psychotropic drugs. If

23:52

you give a naive person, someone who's

23:54

never had any of these drugs, a

23:57

large dose of these drugs, you can precipitate.

24:00

a panic attack, an anxiety in

24:02

the person that is so strong

24:05

that it looks like paranoid schizophrenia.

24:07

And what about for people with

24:09

underlying mental health disorders like bipolar

24:11

disorder or schizophrenia? The safe thing

24:14

to say is that these folks

24:16

should not be administered these drugs.

24:18

Now the evidence that supports that

24:21

statement is limited. I don't want

24:23

to give a blanket,

24:25

simple, unthinking statement saying that

24:27

you shouldn't give these drugs to these people

24:30

because they may actually

24:32

prove beneficial in some of these

24:35

patient populations. But you should just

24:37

be aware of the person's condition

24:39

so you can look out

24:41

for any potential symptoms that might be

24:43

problematic. A

24:48

key part of doing psychedelic therapy

24:50

safely is what happens after the

24:52

trip. This step is called integration,

24:55

where people try to make sense of their experience

24:58

and carry those lessons into their everyday lives. That's

25:01

what Justin's group is doing here today. We

25:05

pull into a parking lot at Barton Springs,

25:07

a natural swimming hole. Church

25:10

members are gathering by a trailhead. It's around 15

25:12

people. They

25:14

form a circle and a man wearing a heroic path

25:17

to light shirt reads an opening prayer. All

25:20

gods past, present and future,

25:24

Mother Earth, bless

25:26

heroic path to light today on this walk.

25:30

Let us embrace

25:32

each other in fellowship today.

25:36

Justin has a Ziploc bag full of

25:38

peach-colored gummies that are laced with psilocybin

25:40

mushrooms. He

25:42

reaches into the bag and pulls one out. It's

25:44

a small dose, a micro dose. Just

25:47

enough to boost the mood, not enough

25:49

to hallucinate. Justin

25:52

walks counterclockwise around the circle, handing out

25:54

the gummies. We

25:59

start to hike. We're heading up a

26:01

trail by a creek bed, over rocks and through

26:03

red oaks and pecan trees. It's

26:08

a community, and that's how I

26:10

believe we heal as in community

26:13

and with community. And that's

26:15

the medicine, you know? Michael

26:17

has been with Heroic Path to Light since the beginning.

26:20

He only wants me to use

26:22

his first name for the story. I get

26:24

it. Active duty soldiers and

26:26

firefighters could lose their jobs for

26:28

just taking one of the dummies that Justin handed

26:31

out this morning. Creating small groups

26:33

like what we have here today.

26:35

That's what, you know,

26:37

that's what moves the needle. That's what heals.

26:43

By the side of the trail, there's a brightly

26:45

colored snake working its way through the brush. Is

26:48

that coral snake still alive? Oh yeah,

26:50

there he goes. It's delicate looking

26:52

with yellow, red and black bands. You

26:54

bet you're done, dude. Really? It's a

26:57

fatal bite? In this

26:59

moment, I'm glad I'm with a bunch of first

27:01

responders. The most poisonous snake is

27:03

egg. Wow. After

27:06

a sweaty three hours of hiking, we make our

27:08

way to a grass field above a swimming hole.

27:11

The church members sit in a circle. A

27:14

woman named Caitlin Riley leads some breathing

27:16

exercises. Take one long

27:19

inhale and

27:22

hold at the top. And

27:25

then release like you're releasing through a straw. Very

27:27

long and slow. It's pretty

27:29

hot out here under the late September Texas sun.

27:32

Most of the guys have their shirts off. There's

27:35

a lot of military tattoos and some visible

27:37

scars. All of them have

27:39

the kinds of scars you can't see on the outside.

27:43

I don't even like to think

27:45

about how my life was before

27:47

this. I use alcohol

27:50

mostly to like black

27:52

out the emotions inside of

27:54

me. Everyone in the circle gets

27:56

a chance to speak. They

27:58

take turns passing around around. So they're

28:01

talking stuff. I

28:04

didn't realize how much I hated

28:06

people until I stopped, you

28:08

know, hating people so much.

28:13

Realizing gratitude for little tiny

28:15

things that people and

28:17

the universe bring me was something that I couldn't

28:20

do before. After

28:23

each person speaks, the group thanks them. Thanks,

28:25

bro. You too, brother. The

28:30

rattle gets passed to a guy wearing aviator

28:33

sunglasses and a backwards baseball hat. He

28:35

was a sniper in the Marines. It's

28:37

not just the things you experience in

28:39

combat, right? It's the person you have

28:42

to make yourself in order to

28:44

be ready for combat, right?

28:46

You nurture a lot of things

28:48

that aren't really healthy

28:50

in a normal life, right?

28:53

Like anger and hate and you

28:55

turn yourself into this monster, right?

28:57

You cannot let yourself experience fear,

29:00

hesitation. You push all that stuff aside,

29:03

but that stuff goes somewhere,

29:05

you know? My

29:07

psilocybin journey was basically

29:10

just combat flashbacks

29:14

the entire time, but this time it's like

29:16

I was experiencing all the fear that I

29:20

was supposed to have experienced when I

29:22

was there, you know? And

29:25

it wasn't fun. I didn't enjoy

29:27

one bit of it. I came away

29:29

from it kind of realizing that that

29:31

stuff I was carrying with me was

29:33

defining my entire life, my interactions with

29:36

myself, with my kids, my wife, with

29:38

everything I did. I

29:40

actually feel like I'm living a life now, whereas

29:43

before I just walked around feeling like I

29:46

was, you know, dead inside.

29:48

But I came back and I just

29:51

felt like truly at peace. Thanks for sharing, dude.

29:54

Love you, man. Love you,

29:56

too. When everyone has said their peace, Mark, the veteran

29:59

who read the O- opening prayer takes the

30:01

rattle. So

30:03

as we go forward today, I want you to

30:05

give yourself unconditional love. And I want you to

30:07

really take that and drive that home today. Give

30:09

yourself grace. The sun is

30:11

starting to hang a little lower in the sky. Caitlin

30:14

takes the rattle and closes out the ceremony.

30:17

I just would invite everyone to go around in a

30:19

circle really quickly and just say one word that comes

30:22

to mind today when they think of today. So

30:25

for me, it's connection.

30:29

Lots of love, gratitude,

30:31

family, vision, sovereignty, love,

30:34

and gummy bears. The

30:39

group is open about their use of psychedelics.

30:41

They talk about it on their website and

30:43

they take them out in public in broad

30:46

daylight. But it

30:48

is still illegal. The next day

30:50

I asked Justin about that. Do you

30:52

fear criminal prosecution? Zero. Zero.

30:56

Zero. I'll just say this. In

30:58

the Constitution, there is specific language

31:00

in the First Amendment that speaks

31:02

of religious freedoms and the government

31:04

not being able to stop an

31:06

individual from practicing their own religion

31:09

and faith. Right? There's

31:11

additional language for the

31:13

religious freedom laws that

31:16

came out in 1993. And

31:20

then there's additional language here in

31:22

the state of Texas that further

31:24

protects people from Texas to practice

31:26

their own religion and

31:28

faith as well. And so

31:30

the creation of the sanctuary in

31:34

practicing our religion protects

31:38

us on a federal and a state level

31:41

to commune with these sacraments. If

31:43

I needed to be a martyr to disrupt

31:45

the entire system and break it down, then

31:48

that's what I'm here for. I

31:51

have zero fear. Right

32:00

now, the VA is conducting several clinical

32:02

trials with psilocybin, the drug in the

32:04

gummies Justin handed out. The

32:07

VA has also started trials with MDMA, but

32:10

for now, both drugs remain illegal under

32:12

federal law. But

32:15

there is one psychedelic that is legal

32:17

and widely available. When

32:19

we come back, we take an intimate look

32:21

at one woman's experience. So I

32:23

felt like it was important

32:26

to share my story because

32:29

my community needs

32:32

healing. You're listening to

32:34

Reveal. From

32:52

the Center for Investigative Reporting in

32:54

PRX, this is Reveal.

32:57

I'm Michael Schiller in for Ow Letton.

33:00

And today we're bringing back an episode

33:02

about the growing movement to legalize certain

33:04

psychedelic drugs for use in

33:06

treating mental health issues like PTSD. Right

33:10

now, there's only one form of psychedelic

33:12

assisted therapy that's legal in the United

33:14

States. It's with ketamine, a

33:17

drug that was made in a lab and started out

33:19

as an anesthetic. Eventually, ketamine

33:21

found its way to the streets as a

33:23

party drug, but wasn't banned. Even

33:26

though it can be dangerous if abused. Over

33:29

time, researchers discovered that its

33:31

psychedelic effects can help with treatment

33:33

resistant depression and other disorders. In

33:38

recent years, ketamine therapy has blown

33:40

up in popularity with hundreds of

33:42

in-person and virtual clinics operating across

33:44

the US. It's been

33:46

reported that some patients are being overprescribed and

33:49

becoming dependent on the drug. But

33:51

ketamine has also led to relief that's

33:54

been life-changing for many suffering with depression

33:56

and anxiety. We wanted to know

33:58

more about how it works, which is how... reporter Jonathan

34:00

Davis met a woman in California named

34:02

Dee Dee, who's been going through ketamine

34:05

assisted therapy. He's stopped

34:07

by the hair braiding studio she owns in Oakland. Hello.

34:12

What's up? I

34:14

am recording. In the sound and scenes

34:16

of the shop. But

34:18

it's only audio. We are on

34:21

the beauty film podcast. Dee

34:23

Dee's hair shop is her pride and joy, a

34:25

place she's built from the ground up. My

34:28

whole thing is like natural hair, curly wavy,

34:30

just taking care of healthy hair. I've

34:33

kind of carved out a niche for myself. And

34:35

it's just been like nonstop

34:38

with clientele. Dee Dee's business

34:40

has done well, but she's had personal challenges

34:42

along the way. She struggles

34:45

with depression and anxiety that stem

34:47

from some hard life experiences, including

34:49

abuse as a child. So

34:51

we're just using her first name in this story. For

34:55

years, Dee Dee tried to work through mental health

34:57

challenges on her own, but eventually realized

34:59

she needed help. She

35:02

came across a psychedelic therapy clinic in

35:04

Berkeley called Sage integrative health and

35:06

a therapist there named Genesee Herzberg. She

35:09

had heard about psychedelic assisted therapy and

35:11

was interested in it. So they let

35:13

her know that I could offer ketamine

35:16

assisted therapy and she expressed interest, but

35:18

also some hesitations. So

35:20

Dee Dee and Genesee started slow, spending

35:22

over a year together doing regular therapy

35:24

and building creased. Dee Dee

35:26

sometimes shared about those experiences at the shop.

35:29

We do talk about a lot of racial

35:31

stuff, you know, she works, she works. Okay.

35:34

And she'll be like, is it we're talking about

35:36

this to a white woman? And my

35:38

response to her was like, you got a white

35:41

woman, you my white woman. Yeah.

35:44

Dee Dee and Genesee eventually began working with

35:46

ketamine and Dee Dee decided to

35:48

share part of her journey with us. So

35:52

I felt like it was

35:54

important to share my story

35:57

because my

35:59

community. needs healing

36:01

and because

36:03

a lot of us are

36:05

entrenched in trauma and Don't

36:09

even know it. I

36:11

am telling my story for Women

36:14

and people like myself that

36:16

don't know about these type

36:19

of modalities The

36:21

messages don't trickle down the same

36:23

way to the black and brown

36:25

community. And so I just wanted to

36:27

lend my voice For

36:30

them and for anyone but

36:32

particularly them My

36:37

work with Dennis II began during the pandemic

36:40

So we meet virtually for all of our

36:43

sessions and the ketamine I use is in

36:45

a loss in form Coaching

36:47

for you and you have the laws engine

36:49

your mouth. Do you want to listen to

36:52

music? Do you want silence? Should

36:54

we start the music? Sure. You also have the

36:57

timer for 15 Yeah,

36:59

you can go ahead and put it in. Okay

37:01

ready? Um, one two three Genesee

37:07

and I sit quietly and wait

37:10

for the last inch to dissolve It

37:13

tastes horrible Like

37:16

battery acid and cough syrup mixed together

37:18

and we have to wait the

37:20

whole 15 minutes for it to dissolve And

37:24

if not a minute left my

37:26

first ketamine session was Absolutely

37:29

beautiful. It was amazing. The second

37:32

one was Getting

37:35

into heavy stuff. It was a

37:37

little more difficult for me and

37:40

going into the third one I'm

37:43

here for whatever happens at this point

37:45

good or bad Okay,

37:47

you go ahead and push it around in

37:49

your mouth And

37:51

then when you feel ready swallow hard

37:55

shot so hard I

38:00

feel like it's starting. Yeah. What

38:03

are you noticing? Just

38:05

a little tingly. The

38:11

ketamine seems to create some kind

38:13

of buffer for me to

38:15

look at my trauma safely and

38:17

be able to talk about it. So

38:21

that's where I get lost

38:23

in the sauce because I

38:25

feel inherently good. But

38:28

I feel like there's so many bad

38:30

things on me. A

38:33

lot gets unpacked in these sessions.

38:36

I'm so thankful for my husband

38:38

because I feel like he

38:40

gifted me some secure love attachment.

38:42

And so I want to give

38:44

people safety. It

38:48

hasn't been an easy journey. When

38:50

I was 25, my husband

38:53

of six years was robbed and killed.

38:56

But a lot of my pain also

38:59

comes from my childhood. I

39:01

grew up in a poor and violent

39:04

household. My parents were

39:06

beyond rough with each other and

39:09

often violent and careless with

39:12

us kids. Also,

39:15

when I was a little girl, I

39:18

was left in the hands of a

39:20

family babysitter where I was sexually abused.

39:24

And it's in this session that

39:26

I have a big realization about

39:28

that trauma. And just

39:31

a heads up, it's pretty intense.

39:35

When I told my

39:37

mom that someone was touching me,

39:39

my mom beat

39:44

me. And

39:49

I think that's why there's other

39:51

things wrong with me. Why

39:54

would you do that? Why would

39:57

you do that? Why

40:02

would you do that to a seven year

40:04

old? You

40:08

knew something had to be going

40:10

on because you always, always

40:13

questioned me. And

40:15

I'm always lying saying, no, nobody is

40:17

touching me. Why did I

40:19

lie? Like who was I trying

40:22

to protect that I don't want to

40:24

do anymore? I don't want to value other people's

40:26

lives over my life. That's why

40:28

I'm doing this because I know

40:31

this stuff was kind of like

40:34

ingrained in me, but

40:36

it doesn't feel like who

40:38

I am. After

40:43

the journey ends, I'm coming down. I'm

40:45

trying to relax and get back to normal

40:47

for the rest of the day. The

40:50

next few sessions I have with

40:52

Genesee are non-ketamine sessions. And in

40:55

those sessions, we discuss what happened

40:57

during the ketamine session and

41:00

figure out how to integrate those

41:02

experiences back into my real life.

41:05

I'm curious what you've noticed since

41:07

the ketamine session. I feel boosted.

41:09

I do feel generally boosted. How

41:12

the session ended is kind of

41:14

what carried me for the remainder of

41:16

the month. A

41:19

lot of times it's two steps forward and

41:21

one step back. It's been

41:24

a few weeks since my last ketamine session

41:26

and now it's time for another one. I

41:28

have the ketamine in my mouth and about 15 minutes

41:31

have gone by. When you

41:33

feel ready, you can swallow. I

41:35

think I'm going to start playing this music at the shop.

41:40

I think it's been half my effects. It's

41:43

so funny how the music can work with the

41:45

medicine at times. This

41:47

session gets really deep, really fast.

41:50

And I start talking to Genesee about

41:53

how people often perceive me

41:55

as one way, but I

41:57

see myself completely different. I

42:00

don't know how I'm able to

42:03

be generally happy, but then the

42:05

flip side is that I'm generally sad.

42:09

But most people don't get that.

42:12

I think one of the things I cultivate

42:14

in people is hope or something. Can

42:18

you see the part of you that

42:20

other people see? No. Uh-huh.

42:25

Let's jump in and either open

42:27

up to the question of what's

42:29

underneath the feeling of being a

42:31

failure, or open up

42:34

to the question of how can I see

42:36

myself, how other people see me? Yeah,

42:39

it's like feeling like a failure. It's

42:42

like the bottom basement. And so

42:44

it's like I try to do all these things,

42:47

and then stuff comes

42:49

back down to the bottom basement.

42:51

There's like nothing there. It's

42:55

just like I'm always trying

42:57

and trying and trying and trying

43:00

and trying. It's literally exhausting.

43:03

Yeah. Do you feel like

43:05

I see the ways that you're struggling? No,

43:08

I don't even think you see it. Yeah,

43:11

because you say things like, oh,

43:14

but you're managing a lot, and

43:16

it takes a lot to run a business. And

43:18

all this stuff, it's like, yeah, that stuff is

43:20

true, but I'm still failing at all of those

43:22

areas. Yeah.

43:27

Well, can I tell you a little bit about

43:29

my experience? Sure. Because

43:33

I find myself feeling pulled to counter

43:35

the part of you that feels like

43:37

you're failing. I get protective. And

43:40

I want to defend you against that part. But

43:44

I see that that's actually, it's

43:46

not helping. You actually need to be seen

43:49

in the ways that you're struggling. And I

43:51

actually do see how hard it's

43:53

been. I'm sorry that I haven't

43:55

made that clear. Yeah. Yeah.

44:00

We've got just a few minutes. How

44:02

are you feeling right now? Genesee,

44:04

like how do you do this? Do

44:07

what? For everybody. Hold

44:10

space like this? Yes. Yeah.

44:12

This is crazy. I mean, you

44:14

do something pretty similar, I think.

44:18

Oh, you're right. That's funny. You're

44:22

right. Our

44:24

session is winding down now, and

44:27

I feel so grateful that Genesee and I

44:29

are able to get real with each other

44:31

like this. And I love

44:33

that she just pointed out that I

44:35

do often hold space for others at

44:37

the shop. We definitely be

44:39

therapists on her. Oh,

44:42

Jesus. We get close to her. Illness

44:44

is, people talk about their relationship. Sometimes

44:48

we talk about our trauma, and

44:50

sometimes we get up all the time and

44:52

we hear different opinions, and I think this

44:54

is a whole new experience. Whatever you can

44:57

say. Say. It's

44:59

a few weeks later, and

45:01

I'm ready to dive deeper into

45:03

my emotions and get to

45:06

the root of my pain. This

45:08

is gonna be the highest dose of ketamine

45:11

that I've ever taken. All right.

45:13

So we're gonna do one and a half, right? Do

45:16

you wanna shout the music now? Sure. The

45:20

medicine is coming on pretty strong,

45:22

and I'm feeling some challenging emotions

45:24

come up. I feel

45:26

sadness about the loss of my

45:28

husband, and I feel impatient just

45:31

wanting to be healed already. And

45:35

it's just like, when is the person

45:37

of myself, when is that

45:39

person gonna be here? When

45:42

am I gonna save myself? When is

45:44

she coming? When

45:47

is she coming? I've

45:50

learned that like no one is gonna

45:52

come. Yeah.

45:56

He's definitely not gonna come. Yeah.

46:00

there's a lot of grief there about that.

46:02

Yeah, because I wish he was here. It

46:04

just, it would not

46:07

be like this if he was here. Yeah.

46:10

But I gotta let that go. I had to

46:12

let that go. But I

46:15

miss him so much. He

46:19

hasn't been here since

46:21

2007. But if he was here,

46:24

everything would be okay. Yeah.

46:26

And when I connect the

46:28

pain to how it feels in my

46:30

body, that's when I feel like I'm

46:33

gonna die. I

46:41

don't know why the room just got skinny. Yeah,

46:44

you might want to lie down. Yeah,

46:47

yes. Still time. Oh,

46:50

release, release,

46:52

release. I

46:55

want to be like a snake. Sounds

46:59

crazy. That releases its

47:01

old skin. I don't

47:05

want to release all the

47:07

pain. I've

47:10

been holding onto all this pain

47:12

my whole entire life. I

47:15

need some pain. Release too.

47:18

Wash over me. Release.

47:23

Oh my God, it's so beautiful. What I'm

47:27

seeing in my head is so beautiful. What

47:30

do you see? This

47:33

beautiful vision God is giving me

47:35

is like medicine. I can't describe

47:37

it. It's bright, but

47:40

it's earthy. It's like

47:42

dry, but not the

47:44

bad parts of dry. And it's

47:47

humid without bad parts of humid.

47:49

Thank you, Lord. Oh

47:51

God, thank you. It feels so good. It's

47:54

like real medicine. Let's

47:56

heal the broken heart. Let's

47:59

heal. the broken heart, let

48:01

it heal the broken heart. This

48:09

session is a huge session for

48:11

me. I had an overwhelming

48:13

feeling come over me that I

48:16

struggle to put into words. It's

48:18

a deep feeling of

48:20

all these trapped emotions of

48:22

grief and sadness, all

48:24

of these things that I've cut off

48:26

from myself. I'm able to look at

48:28

it. I'm able to see it.

48:31

I'm able to feel it. And

48:34

I'm able to release and let

48:37

it go. Dee

48:44

Dee did a few more ketamine sessions with Genesee,

48:46

but over the last year they've

48:48

gone back to doing regular therapy. Partially

48:51

because of the cost, mostly

48:53

because Dee Dee wanted time to really integrate

48:55

her insights from the ketamine back into her

48:57

life. And now

48:59

she's focused on the next chapter, opening

49:02

up a new salon. She

49:04

showed it to Jonathan. So

49:06

this is the one that'll be my

49:08

dream shop basically. Let's

49:10

see if it's open. The pink

49:12

keys are for this one. Everything

49:15

is color coded. The

49:17

new shop is much bigger than the old

49:19

one and will offer a full service salon

49:21

for women with natural, wavy and curly hair.

49:24

It also has space that she'll lease out

49:26

to other businesses, all predominantly serving women of

49:28

color in her neighborhood. This is

49:31

the main salon. As

49:33

you can hear, the echo is huge. This

49:36

is amazing. Isn't it amazing? So

49:41

my ketamine journey opened the

49:43

door for me to go

49:46

into the basement and

49:49

deal and work on those things. You

49:51

know, I still struggle with this fear

49:53

of failure. But if you would have

49:55

asked me before I took ketamine, I

49:58

didn't even know that I struggled with that. I

50:00

just felt bad all the time. And

50:02

so the ketamine really gave

50:05

me the ability to like fit

50:07

with those things. You know, I

50:09

feel more empowered to work on

50:11

these things within myself. Dee

50:15

Dee says she's interested in doing more ketamine

50:17

therapy soon, but in

50:19

person this time, because she wants to try

50:21

to go even deeper. Before

50:25

we go, an important reminder that psychedelic

50:27

drugs are powerful and can be dangerous.

50:30

They should not be used without first

50:32

consulting a mental health professional. That

50:38

story was produced by Jonathan A. Davis. He

50:41

and I are the lead producers of this week's show. The

50:44

editor is Taki Telenides. Thanks

50:46

to the Carter Center's Benjamin von

50:48

Sternenfeld's Rosenthal Fellowship for Mental Health

50:50

Reporting. And to David

50:53

Boyer, Ben Trefny, and Ethan Rocky. Nicky

50:56

Frick and Rosemarie Ho are our fact

50:58

checkers. Victoria

51:00

Baranetsky is our general counsel. Our

51:02

production managers are Zula McCobb and Stephen

51:05

Reskoll. Scorned sound design

51:07

by Jim Briggs and Fernando Arruda. Our

51:09

CEO is Robert Rosenthal. Our

51:11

COO is Maria Feldman. Our

51:14

theme music is by Camerato Lightning. Support

51:17

for Reveal is provided by the Riva

51:19

and David Logan Foundation, the Ford Foundation,

51:21

the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur

51:23

Foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, the

51:25

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Park Foundation

51:27

and the Hellman Foundation. Reveal

51:30

is a co-production of the Center for

51:32

Investigative Reporting and PRX. I'm

51:35

Michael I. Schiller and remember, as

51:37

Alletteson likes to say, there is

51:39

always more to the story. Support

51:58

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odoo.com/reveal. Odoo.

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