0:01

From. The Center For Investigative Reporting and

0:04

P R X This is reveal. A

0:06

mallet. Cell.

0:08

Phone calls from Russian soldiers fighting

0:11

in Ukraine. All

0:14

our the calls reveal

0:16

soldiers anger, fear and

0:18

frustration over the war

0:20

and expose possible war

0:22

crimes. Not pick up

0:24

whatever got he when

0:26

it. They

0:28

were intercepted by Ukrainian authorities

0:30

and obtained by Associated Press

0:33

Investigative Reporter Erica Kane. It's

0:35

we heard some of them

0:37

on Reveal last year. Since

0:39

then, Erica got more including

0:41

calls Schilling Soldiers desperation. As

0:44

the war grounds on. What's

0:46

interesting about these intercepts is the number

0:48

of people who spoke openly about wanting

0:50

out of the war. One of the

0:52

and said he felt forgotten would have

0:54

a portable C. I'm. Greg. Mankiw

0:56

matter what might know. Their lives

0:59

are worth nothing to Moscow and they don't know what

1:01

they're dying for anymore. For

1:03

some Russian soldiers, there's a way

1:05

out of the war in underground

1:07

network run by fellow Russians tell

1:09

soldiers escape both the battlefield and

1:12

also harsh treatment from the Russian

1:14

military. But even far away from

1:16

the war zone, it can be

1:18

hard to find a safe haven.

1:20

For this episode, we're partnering once

1:22

again with the Associated Press. with

1:25

support from a Pulitzer Center. We

1:27

go inside a secretive operation to

1:29

undermine President Vladimir Putins war machine

1:31

and save lives in a know

1:33

before we start. This week's show

1:35

contains descriptions of graphic violence and

1:38

may not be appropriate for our

1:40

listeners. Who's Eric? A key?

1:42

nets? This. Past

1:44

January eve on Tv. Lie of

1:46

got an encrypted message. Yvonne.

1:49

Lives in exile in Spain. He's.

1:51

A Russian anti war activist and this message

1:53

was from a man who said he was

1:55

a soldier in the Russian Army. He'd.

1:58

Spent nearly six months on the. Minds

2:00

in Ukraine. And was set up. Yvonne

2:03

message back. Let's. Talk. For.

2:05

A lot of small a socialist sir

2:07

but I still be well overdue from

2:09

your phone number of years from earth

2:11

orbit. I ask him to be calm

2:13

and not to be afraid of me

2:15

going to court. I told him well

2:17

alright tell me the whole story from

2:19

what I would happen without started. how

2:21

would finish off with the lives of

2:24

our lives contract But was it a

2:26

but the man. Told he was born

2:28

in a former Soviet republic in Central

2:30

Asia and that before the war, he

2:32

was living in Russia as a migrant.

2:34

Worker he's older than any soldier

2:37

in the army could be more

2:39

than fifty years old, and. He

2:42

said that after put an ordered the full scale

2:44

attack on. Ukraine in twenty twenty two.

2:46

So. He started seeing signs

2:49

plastered everywhere around St. Petersburg

2:51

on buses and billboards. To

2:55

major theme these billboards his

2:57

dad's they are Promises Fast

3:00

and big Money To anybody

3:02

who signed a contract with

3:04

Russia Minister of Defense. At.

3:07

This point the man a little about the

3:09

war other than the propaganda in the rest

3:11

and media, and he was struggling to support

3:13

his son who is studying and a prestigious

3:15

university. so we thought this could be an

3:17

easy way to make a lot more money

3:19

than he could as a manual labor. Most

3:22

of people I would say who signed

3:24

the contract for the last year family

3:26

they signed it because. They. Needed

3:28

money. Once. He got to

3:30

Ukraine. He realized he been misled. It

3:33

was not a way to make easy money. It

3:36

was a slaughterhouse. The most

3:38

common words they use when

3:40

they are taught and about

3:42

their experiences. They were. Because.

3:45

They were told one thing and they

3:47

faced. Simpler. Another same. The.

3:50

Man on the sun with his on was on

3:52

leave. And recess them frontline duty.

3:54

And. He wanted out. He did not wanna

3:56

go back to Ukraine. Of

3:59

course, everyone. Asked why did

4:01

you do their why did you sign

4:03

the contract But. Unfortunately,

4:05

you Russian officials are

4:08

quite talented in treating

4:10

end and lying. Yvonne's

4:14

job is to help Russian soldiers

4:16

and other men facing military service

4:18

escape. Ideally to get to

4:21

other countries. the name is as good

4:23

as get Lost and it's cofounder. Is

4:25

good Gory. Sarah Lynn. There. Is

4:27

a lot of desperation

4:30

people do not see.

4:32

How this can and.

4:35

People. Decide to to desert

4:37

say seen fifteen years in

4:39

jail by the way. Grigori

4:42

was a prominent homeless advocates. In

4:44

St. Petersburg who became a harsh

4:46

critic of Vladimir Putins war in

4:49

Ukraine facing. Possible arrest his sled

4:51

russia to the Republic of Georgia

4:53

where he launched Get Lost. In. September

4:55

Twenty Twenty two. It's. Literal

4:57

name and Ross and is he detail a

4:59

son. Or go through the forest.

5:02

But. As good or explains that

5:04

phase has different meanings. Depending

5:06

on your audience, First meaning

5:09

is get lost. Go.

5:12

Yourself that's message to

5:14

Russian authorities, obviously. And

5:17

the second meaning is

5:19

hide in the forest

5:21

And that's the message

5:24

we're sending to. All.

5:26

Of the people who. Do

5:28

not want to go to Russian

5:31

army or one to desert from

5:33

Russian army. Get

5:37

Lost operates a channel on the popular

5:39

messaging app Telegram. That's how most people

5:42

contact them, including that solace or he

5:44

was trying to pay for his son's

5:46

college. And is cause with

5:48

the man Yvonne encourage. him to leave

5:51

us as quickly as possible and

5:53

returned to his home country but

5:55

in the chaos of war things

5:57

can go sideways quickly and soldiers

5:59

kinda disappear. And

6:01

he told me, well, I will think about

6:03

it. I will make my decision and go

6:05

back to you. And he didn't. This

6:09

was the last time Yvonne heard from the

6:11

man. Get

6:18

Lost says it supported more than 22,000

6:21

Russians who want to avoid going to war.

6:23

And more and more, the group is being

6:26

asked to help active duty soldiers who want

6:28

to get out. I

6:30

wanted to get a fuller picture of how this

6:32

underground railroad works. How do

6:35

groups like Get Lost help Russian soldiers defect from

6:37

the front lines of the war? And

6:39

what does life look like for them once they're out?

6:42

So I traveled to Kazakhstan. That's

6:45

where I met an officer we'll call

6:47

Yvonne. Yvonne was one of

6:49

our very first clients who

6:51

were professional military. He was an

6:54

officer. And he was

6:56

one of the first guys who helped to leave

6:59

the front line. As I

7:01

remember, he entered military academy when he

7:03

was a young boy, a teenager. Yvonne

7:06

is a decorated war hero who has

7:09

been celebrated on Russian state TV. He

7:12

agreed to speak on condition of anonymity,

7:14

fearing deportation and persecution of himself and

7:16

his family back in Russia. By

7:19

the time we meet up, it's been about eight

7:21

months since he deserted. I arrived

7:23

at his apartment in the capital Astana

7:25

together with a translator and video journalist.

7:28

It's around 10 a.m. and

7:30

he's just getting up. It's nice to

7:33

meet you. Thank you

7:35

for checking the site. The place

7:37

stinks of cats. And there are four guys

7:40

sharing the apartment with only three chairs among

7:42

them to sit on, three spoons to eat

7:44

with. Everything feels

7:47

temporary. Yvonne

7:50

sits in his bedroom next to pile coats on

7:52

the floor that was Serving as another

7:54

guy's bed and tells us about his

7:56

time in Ukraine. College

8:00

and him a kind of since platoon of

8:02

around sixteen man that was part of the

8:04

invasion. Force it a deeper. they got

8:06

into Ukraine, that uglier things got over

8:08

the when you fucking Nicole, do what

8:11

he says. He didn't want to kill

8:13

anyone. else exists. But

8:15

he also wanted to live. In

8:19

Ukraine, Yevgeny saw things he

8:21

can't forget. Thinks. He knows

8:24

of wrong. He says Ukrainian prisoners

8:26

of war were executed early on

8:28

because the Russian military couldn't get

8:30

them back to Russia and didn't

8:32

want to build detention centers. That

8:34

the with us decided to stop with

8:36

wrestled. People were chosen for this because

8:38

a lot of others refused. Or

8:42

into small sauce solo that scribble with a

8:44

special so to speak psyche were appointed that

8:47

because it years in reason it doesn't He

8:49

was. Like

8:54

April Twenty twenty two Ukrainians

8:56

for mounting a fierce resistance. And

8:59

the Russian army was pulling back on

9:01

the outskirts of Keys. in their hasty

9:03

retreat It can his unit ran into

9:05

an ambush. He. Says around

9:08

seventy people from his brigade died that

9:10

day. He. Had any soda

9:12

said video the Ukrainian. Military released of

9:14

the encounter. There's. No I yell

9:16

and the footage looks like a video

9:18

game. Graphics of Russian and

9:20

Ukrainian flags bob above the tanks. You

9:23

can follow the battle. Then. It

9:25

cuts to magnesite image of a Russian. Tank

9:27

Plumbing smoke to dead guy's curled on

9:29

the ground beside it. In

9:32

the comments, someone's written. Very

9:34

cool. The. Best site in my

9:36

life is to see how the Russians die

9:38

writes another. What's. It

9:41

like see watching that video say you are in

9:43

that column and you know people who are dying.

9:45

In that, say, what's it like watching. A

9:48

movie watcher because you want us to any for

9:50

to with the was. Well.

9:52

was actually i only watched it once was and

9:54

i do not want to watch it again it

9:56

was actually i don't want to look at my

9:58

friends who were killed genius For what?

10:01

It's painful. Many

10:05

of my friends have died, and

10:07

these were really good guys who did not want

10:10

to fight. But there was no way

10:12

out for them. We

10:17

spend more than five hours talking with Yevgeny.

10:21

At one point, he rummages through a

10:24

box, filled with a few important things

10:26

he brought with him when he fled. He

10:29

can't find his medals of honor, but he does

10:31

find the certificates for military commendations.

10:35

And then he suddenly shoves everything back in

10:37

the box. He

10:40

seems ashamed. Yevgeny

10:45

doesn't like to talk about seeing his friends

10:48

die, and he doesn't like to talk

10:50

about the people he and his men killed either. When

10:53

I press him, he tells a story of

10:55

an encounter along the road to Kyz, when

10:58

his unit got stuck in a field outside a

11:00

village. They stopped to repair

11:02

their vehicles, and he says two men

11:04

approached, who appeared to be armed. He

11:07

ordered his sergeant to fire. People

11:12

often ask me, did you kill him?

11:14

But who really knows? He

11:16

shot, one man lay down.

11:18

But did the man just fall over, or

11:21

did he want him or kill him? It's

11:24

unclear. In

11:30

May 2022, Yevgeny and

11:32

three other soldiers were ordered to retrieve their unit's

11:34

last drone, which was stuck

11:36

in a tree in Ukrainian territory.

11:39

But this, for them, was basically

11:41

a suicide mission. They'd

11:44

already lost one soldier here. We

11:47

were sent to get it from the same

11:49

place where my soldier died. For

11:51

a month, we could not take his body out.

11:54

He was just lying there. There

11:56

was just no way to get that drone. And

11:59

it was The last time we had a drone. Last straw for Yevgeny.

12:01

He'd already seen a lot of things

12:03

he didn't agree with. lots of incompetence

12:05

lives way said, and didn't want to

12:07

kill people. He.

12:10

Had Guinea and three soldiers came up with

12:13

what they called. Plan Beach. The

12:16

sniper would do the shooting. He again

12:18

he would take the first bullet to his

12:20

leg, then the com sky in the sky

12:23

and finally the sniper himself with take a

12:25

bullet to his arm. The fourth guy

12:27

did when he gets shot but he said he stand by

12:29

their story. So. They go off

12:31

into the forest ostensibly to get that drones,

12:33

but instead of that, they get their turn.

12:35

It gets ready. To start

12:37

mess is getting. Tells the sniper. Suit.

12:40

Into the south. Park. A challenge else?

12:42

Could it have. First published or admits

12:44

about the shutter com guy in the

12:46

legs like a puff of real muslims

12:48

than the sniper look I target and

12:50

without screwing with is a scary though

12:52

that of the local spaceman with he

12:54

changed his mind after watching what happened

12:57

to us. lot of reports input of.

13:00

It's very painful. Imagine taking a metal

13:02

bar that's and having a strong man

13:04

like a power lifter hammered into your

13:07

legs real low ses the strength of

13:09

for the leases. What it feels like

13:11

was a killer Titian. His

13:14

friends dragged him through the woods and he

13:16

was evacuated that night. He

13:18

says me this guy on his leg. He

13:20

likes to joke that he gave birth

13:23

to him says he says no life

13:25

begins without suffering and as a child

13:27

birth he went through intense pain to

13:29

get a new life. He.

13:36

Has can He was shipped. To Russian. He

13:38

knew he'd eventually be ordered back to

13:41

Ukraine, so he went into hiding and

13:43

contacted the anti war activists at get

13:45

last. Year's Eve on

13:47

City Lions again. Give doing

13:50

is extremely brave person and

13:52

he hates more he doesn't

13:54

want it. With. His journey

13:56

hiding in Russia. Ivanek. The

13:58

Gory team set to work. Trying to get

14:00

him out. The only thing

14:02

we can do here is

14:05

providing information clear. Verified

14:08

information. We. Create

14:10

a root for them.

14:13

All of the details

14:15

discussed weeds, documents you

14:17

will need and what

14:19

border use foods cross.

14:22

We. Agreed not to disclose Yevgeny.

14:24

Escape it. But. It's when

14:26

it's being used by other desserts. Yevgeny.

14:29

Mean, it's a classic stand in. Early. Twenty

14:32

Twenty Three. Sack. And

14:34

Russia authorities filed a criminal case.

14:36

His relatives request sent. And

14:38

his apartments searched. He

14:42

gets get sick a lot of risk to make

14:44

his semantic. Is. States that. Flies

14:46

in Exile isn't my he was hoping

14:49

for. This is common

14:51

for a lot of deserted to remain

14:53

in a perilous kind of limbo living

14:55

inside and. He

14:57

can. he doesn't have a regular

14:59

job, he's afraid of documents, sex

15:01

doesn't have a Sim card, a

15:04

bank account or at least in

15:06

his own The Uncanny and see

15:08

other nicer have watched computers get

15:10

deported from, has a son back

15:12

to Russia or seized by Russian

15:14

forces in Armenia says it's has

15:16

February a high profile Russian to

15:19

sector a former helicopter pilot turned

15:21

up dead in Spain to Saudi

15:23

riddled with bullets. What to

15:25

do? Anything is unusual to the she is

15:27

that what he says it has no mechanism

15:29

for Isis the do not want to deserts

15:32

of such as it gets to a safe

15:34

place. The. Again, he

15:36

says helping Russian soldiers desert

15:38

is one way for the

15:40

international community. Undermine couldn't. War

15:42

in Ukraine the whole. after all,

15:45

it's much cheaper economically to allow

15:47

a person into your pantry. A

15:50

healthy young men who can work. Them.

15:53

To supply Ukraine with weapons. He's.

15:55

apply for asylum in western europe and it

15:58

doesn't know what he'll do when his savings

16:00

run out. He would like to

16:02

go to the United States or maybe use his

16:04

military training to serve in a UN mission somewhere,

16:08

but it's hard for him to draw a

16:10

path to that place from his grungy apartment.

16:14

Krigori says defectors like Yevgeny deserve

16:16

a lot more support. These

16:18

people made this

16:20

very hard decision facing, I

16:23

will repeat, 15 years

16:25

in jail. So it's

16:28

a very big risk and

16:30

these people have proven that

16:32

they don't want to be a

16:34

part of this war. Many

16:37

Russians who oppose Putin's war have

16:40

struggled to find new lives in

16:42

other countries, including the

16:44

United States and Europe. We

16:47

went to Istanbul, Turkey last year to

16:49

visit a network of state houses. Activists

16:52

were sheltering men evading the military

16:54

and others, educators,

16:56

business professionals, artists, all

16:59

escaping Putin's Russia. So

17:01

we are in one of the co-living spaces

17:05

since the beginning of the war. It

17:07

is the second apartment we rented

17:10

here in Istanbul. Eva

17:12

Rappaport is with the group

17:14

Kovechek or ARC, which regularly

17:16

partners with Get Lost. She

17:19

told us this apartment housed up to 12

17:21

people who typically stay a few weeks

17:24

until they find other accommodations. Many

17:26

were hoping to build an exile community in

17:28

Istanbul that would stand up in

17:30

vocal opposition to Putin and the war.

17:34

I think it's like almost

17:36

an obligation that being outside

17:38

of Russia, we can exercise

17:40

our freedom of speech, saying what

17:43

we think about the event. We

17:45

should be saying it

17:47

openly and loudly for all the people

17:49

in Russia who cannot do that. But

17:52

a year later, Eva says most of

17:55

the people who fled to Turkey have had

17:57

to move on to other countries because they

17:59

were denied residence. residency permits. She

18:02

says very few could get visas

18:04

for countries in the European Union

18:06

or the United States. There was

18:08

hope that Istanbul could be some kind

18:10

of hub for Russian

18:12

oppositionary culture, being

18:15

this strategically located place,

18:17

but now this

18:22

is all going away. That's

18:24

something that was not expected,

18:26

but it

18:28

became our reality. Despite

18:35

lackluster support from the West and more

18:37

violence and repression in Russia, Gregorian

18:39

Yvonne say they're not backing down. The

18:43

more successful get lost is

18:45

getting, we get

18:47

more and more dangerous,

18:50

but dignity is more

18:53

important than safety and

18:56

love to my

18:58

country is definitely

19:01

more powerful than fear. This

19:06

past February, Get Lost organized a

19:08

special day to honor soldiers who

19:11

make a bold stand. They

19:16

posted videos like this one from a

19:18

Russian army deserter. With

19:26

his face blurred out, he's pleading to

19:28

his comrades still fighting in Ukraine. He

19:30

says, don't be afraid to

19:32

desert the Russian military because that's the

19:35

path to a happy life. Yvonne

19:39

says Get Lost is trying to

19:41

redefine what it means to be

19:44

a deserter. It is quite

19:46

a simple appeal. Leave the

19:48

front line, be a deserter,

19:50

don't wait for anything because

19:52

all this huge machine is

19:54

working only on killing

19:56

people. From

20:03

exile, Ivan thinks a lot about

20:05

how Western countries could be

20:07

rallying around military defectors, how

20:09

working with Russians who oppose Putin is

20:12

in the strategic self-interest of the West,

20:14

like during the Cold War, when many

20:17

people escaping from the Soviet Union were

20:19

welcomed with open arms. Lots

20:21

of defectors, even KGB

20:24

spies, didn't want to

20:26

serve for criminals and

20:28

killers and came to

20:30

European states or to United States

20:33

and gave up to local authorities.

20:35

They were heroes. We

20:38

should remember that. Erika

20:46

Kienes is a reporter with the

20:49

Associated Press's global investigation scene. Our

20:52

story was produced by Masho

20:54

Lomashvili and reveals Michael Montgomery.

21:00

Both Russia and Ukraine have been less

21:02

than forthright about how many soldiers have

21:04

been killed in the war, and

21:06

that's brewing discontent among Ukrainians.

21:09

One may ask, my son died

21:12

for Ukraine, but Ukraine

21:14

does not want to recognize his death.

21:17

That's coming up next. We're listening to

21:19

Reveal. At

21:30

Radiolab, we love nothing

21:32

more than nerding out

21:34

about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

21:37

But we do also like to get into other kinds

21:39

of stories. Stories about policing

21:42

or politics, country music, hockey,

21:44

sex, of both. Regardless

21:47

of whether we're looking at science or

21:49

not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity

21:51

to get you the answers. And hopefully

21:53

make you see the world anew. Radiolab,

21:55

adventures on the edge of what we

21:57

think we know. Wherever you get

21:59

your podcasts. From the

22:01

Center for Investigative Reporting in PRX,

22:04

this is Reveal, I'm Al Letzen.

22:07

This week we're collaborating with the Associated

22:09

Press for another look at the conflict

22:11

in Ukraine. Some experts

22:14

say it's becoming a war of attrition,

22:16

but what does that mean in terms of

22:18

human lives? We just heard

22:21

about one officer's decision to desert the

22:23

Russian army and flee the country. That

22:26

story came from AP investigative reporter

22:28

Erica Kienitz, and she's with me

22:30

now. So I wanted

22:32

to ask you, what is the scale

22:34

in terms of desertions in the Russian

22:36

army? A number of signs indicate

22:38

that a growing number of Russian soldiers want

22:41

to get out of the war. Get

22:43

Lost, the group that helped the Evgeny escape,

22:45

has been getting record numbers of requests from

22:47

people seeking to desert, more than 500 in

22:50

the first two months of 2024. These

22:54

days around 30% of all requests for

22:56

help are coming from active duty soldiers.

22:59

A year ago, it was just 3%. Still,

23:02

I think we should put this in the context

23:04

of Russia's overall troop strength. Russia

23:06

has around 470,000 troops on the ground in

23:09

Ukraine, according to one leading think tank

23:11

in London. And so morale

23:13

may be falling, but Russia's still got

23:15

a lot of troops on the ground. So

23:17

it sounds like there aren't many deserters

23:20

that are actually making it to the

23:22

West, and that's where a lot of them want

23:24

to go. I would think

23:26

that if you create incentives for

23:28

soldiers to desert, like offering them

23:30

support, it could be one way

23:32

to deplete the Russian military. So why

23:34

aren't Western countries stepping up? It's

23:37

true. A lot of people do want to leave,

23:39

and very few people are getting in. So we

23:41

got some data on this and found that fewer

23:43

than 300 Russians got refugee status

23:45

in the US in fiscal 2022.

23:49

We can't say how many were soldiers, but

23:51

we can say that in 2022, the number of asylum requests

23:54

the US Department of Homeland Security got

23:56

from Russians nearly quadrupled to

23:58

almost France

24:01

and Germany have also seen surges.

24:03

Asylum requests from Russians were up more than 50%

24:06

last year in France and more than

24:08

doubled in Germany. But the

24:10

deserters we spoke with, like many people in

24:13

Russia, particularly in the armed forces, have

24:15

passports that only allow them to

24:17

travel within a handful of former

24:19

Soviet states. So it's hard

24:22

for them to even get to places like

24:24

France and Germany and America to claim asylum.

24:27

I think also for a lot of people, Russian

24:30

soldiers who desert just don't draw

24:32

a lot of sympathy. And

24:34

Western countries haven't really made up

24:36

their minds as to whether they're

24:39

potential national security assets or

24:41

threats. Are these guys

24:43

spies? Are they war criminals? Or are

24:45

they heroes? So you

24:47

and your team made an effort to document

24:49

the scale of the carnage of this war.

24:52

What have you found? I think it'll

24:54

probably take years before we can really get an accurate

24:56

picture of how many people have died in this war.

24:59

For now, we can say

25:01

that Western intelligence estimates put the number of

25:04

casualties on both sides of more than half

25:06

a million. That kind of human toll

25:08

has not been seen in Europe since World War II. And

25:11

the dead are transforming the landscape. You

25:13

can see the scale of loss from

25:16

satellite images. And from the sky, the

25:18

graves look the same on both sides

25:20

of the front. Fields

25:22

that were once empty are now

25:24

just quilted with these patchworks of

25:27

fresh tombstones. President

25:29

Zelensky recently said that at least 31,000

25:31

Ukrainian soldiers have been killed

25:34

in this war. That's less than

25:36

half of what Washington has estimated, but

25:38

it's much more forthright than Putin has

25:40

been about Russian losses. Moscow's

25:43

silence hasn't stopped work being done by

25:45

Media Zona, the independent Russian media outlet

25:47

and BBC's Russian service. They've

25:50

confirmed the deaths of nearly 50,000 Russian

25:53

soldiers who've been killed since the full scale

25:55

invasion. And they say that number probably captures

25:57

just over half of the true death toll.

26:01

The scale is just, I don't

26:03

know, it's hard to wrap your

26:05

head around that number of people

26:07

dying. It is. That's why we

26:09

wanted to see what these cemeteries looked like from

26:11

space, and that is still only a fraction of

26:13

the total numbers out there. I

26:16

want to bring someone else into

26:19

the conversation. Sola Mia Hara is

26:21

a Ukrainian reporter who's worked alongside

26:23

Erika and helped count those graves

26:25

in Ukraine. Hey, Sola Mia. Hi. So

26:28

tell me, I know

26:31

that you've seen a lot of

26:33

graves. What struck you

26:35

the most? So when

26:37

I visited cemeteries, what struck

26:40

me really is amount

26:42

of rows of graves

26:44

filled with Ukrainian flags, flowers,

26:47

and personal belongings of young

26:49

soldiers. And many of these soldiers

26:51

were born after 2000. Yeah,

26:55

so you're looking at all

26:57

these grave sites for

26:59

really young people whose lives really

27:01

hasn't even gotten started. Yeah,

27:04

exactly. And this is what

27:06

is shocking. It

27:09

sounds like talking publicly about

27:11

the death toll in Ukraine

27:13

is something of a taboo.

27:15

How do ordinary people feel

27:17

about that? Indeed,

27:19

it was a decision

27:22

of Ukrainian government until lately

27:25

not to disclose number of casualties.

27:28

For Ukrainian families, it's

27:30

very important to talk about

27:32

their dead family members who

27:35

died for the sake of Ukraine. But

27:38

for regular Ukrainians, when what they

27:40

read and use, what they see

27:42

in cemeteries does

27:45

not match with numbers provided

27:47

by government, then

27:49

the question arises, what

27:51

for the soldiers died? And

27:54

one may ask, my

27:56

son died for Ukraine, but

27:58

Ukraine does not want to recognize them. recognize his

28:00

death. And

28:02

therefore, some Ukrainian families

28:04

feel it's disrespectful towards

28:07

the dead soldiers not to say

28:09

the actual count. Erika,

28:15

when people describe the conflict

28:17

in Ukraine as a

28:19

war of attrition, what

28:21

does that really mean? Yeah,

28:23

attrition is kind of a nice word

28:25

for something that's actually really very ugly.

28:29

A war of attrition means that who

28:31

prevails is increasingly

28:33

shaped by who can tolerate

28:35

higher losses. And

28:38

by that measure, Moscow has a clear

28:40

advantage. So I

28:42

took a quick look at

28:44

the demographics and Russia had

28:46

3.7 times more men of

28:48

fighting age than Ukraine did

28:50

in 2022. That's according to

28:53

data from the World Bank. And

28:55

the analysts I've spoken with say

28:57

that it will be very hard

28:59

for Ukraine to outmatch Russia's forces,

29:01

which have continued to grow in

29:04

overall size despite hundreds

29:06

of thousands of casualties without

29:09

significant help from Ukraine's

29:11

international partners. Top

29:14

needs that they flag are artillery,

29:16

ammunition and air defense capability.

29:19

The failure of the US Congress to

29:21

approve $60 billion in aid for Ukraine

29:23

is not helping. Lack

29:25

of long range artillery means that Ukraine

29:27

commanders have to push more

29:29

people into the range of Russian

29:31

fire to physically hold the front. Yeah, I

29:34

mean, you know, this sounds

29:36

horrible, but Vladimir Putin can just throw more

29:38

bodies at the problem. And it doesn't seem

29:40

that he really cares about that. Yeah,

29:43

it seems like Putin knows that he

29:45

can sustain higher losses than Ukraine can. And

29:48

that ties into, I guess, Ukraine's

29:51

belief that they should not tell

29:53

what the number of dead are,

29:55

because if they say the

29:57

actual number, it's really clear that

30:00

for lack of a better term, it's a dwindling resource,

30:02

right? Well, I think this

30:04

has to be put into context. Saying

30:06

how many people have died can be a

30:08

real hit to morale. So neither Ukraine nor

30:11

Russia really wants the true number of

30:13

war dead to be known. That's the

30:15

same for pretty much every war. I

30:17

don't think there's transparency in wartime. And if

30:19

you think of past wars, sometimes it takes

30:21

decades for people to get the accurate data.

30:25

Erika Kienetz is an investigative reporter for

30:27

the Associated Press. And Solomia

30:29

Hera is a reporter who's been working with

30:31

the AP in Ukraine. Thank you

30:33

both for coming in. Thanks, Tom. Thank you.

30:39

Coming up, Solomia introduces us to

30:41

a Ukrainian man who recovers war dead

30:44

from the battlefield. He has a

30:46

message for the parents of Russian soldiers. Why

30:48

did you raise your children? For a bright future or

30:50

for death? That's ahead

30:53

on Reveal. From

31:08

the Center for Investigative Reporting in

31:10

PRX, this is Reveal. I'm Al

31:12

Lettin. We

31:14

just heard about how both Russia and Ukraine

31:17

are trying to keep a lid on the

31:19

true death toll. Our next

31:21

story is about a Ukrainian man who's all

31:23

too familiar with the human cost of war.

31:26

He leads a group of volunteer

31:28

body collectors on an obsessive quest

31:31

to put the souls of the military

31:33

dead to rest. Before

31:36

we start, a word of caution

31:38

that this story contains descriptions of

31:40

deaths that are graphic. Reveals

31:44

Michael Montgomery takes it from here. At

31:53

nighttime and reporters for the Associated

31:56

Press, including Solomia Hera, are tearing

31:58

across the Ukrainian countryside. They're

32:01

chasing a mud-covered SUV with Red Cross

32:03

emblems on its doors. On

32:05

the top of the car there were black bags,

32:08

which we immediately recognized it was Yukov and

32:11

his bodies. Yukov is

32:14

Olexey Yukov. So we started

32:16

drawing after him, but he was trying

32:18

very rigidly and speeding up. It was

32:20

in the middle of the night. He

32:22

was certainly in a rush to unload

32:24

his bodies and probably go back home

32:26

to rest. From behind,

32:29

Solomia can see body bags bouncing

32:31

on the roof of Yukov's SUV.

32:34

Inside there are more bodies. Eventually

32:37

Yukov steers off the road and into a

32:39

clearing. He

32:42

parks next to a white refrigerated truck marked

32:44

with a Red Cross and the number 200. That's

32:47

military code for vehicles carrying the dead.

32:57

Under the glare of headlights, men in flak

32:59

jackets and helmets carefully lower the heavy bags

33:01

down from the roof. There are

33:03

a dozen bodies in all. The

33:08

bodies are then loaded onto the refrigerated truck,

33:11

which will ferry them to a morgue. Yukov

33:18

and his team will be back in the field

33:20

tomorrow. They're civilians who comb

33:22

through battlefields and bombed out buildings

33:25

to gather the remains of Ukrainian

33:27

and Russian fighters. They

33:29

call their volunteer group Plot Star

33:31

or Bridgehead. Their mission

33:33

is to help the souls of the dead

33:35

find rest. It's

33:38

a grisly, dangerous world, work that Yukov

33:40

has become reluctant to talk about with

33:42

the press because he feels

33:44

that most reporters only seem interested in the

33:46

gruesome side of his work. Solomia

33:49

assured him that's not the plan. So

33:52

it took us around six,

33:54

seven months to set

33:57

up interviews and we were still

33:59

not sure. if he would arrive

34:01

to that interview. This

34:06

is video footage from a camera that

34:08

Yukov has strapped to his helmet. He

34:11

and his colleagues are treading cautiously through

34:13

the blasted ruins of a farmstead. Well,

34:20

friends, this is the second day of the

34:22

search for our dead soldiers here in this

34:24

area. This is the village of

34:26

Dovhankie, Harkie region, and this is the exact

34:29

location of the soldier who died. Yukov

34:32

is very determined to

34:35

find a missing body if

34:37

one asks him so. And

34:40

one time he was contacted by

34:42

a family of

34:45

a missing person, and that

34:47

family knew the place of where

34:50

a soldier died, Ukrainian soldier died,

34:52

and they asked Yukov and his

34:54

team to go on site and

34:56

try to bring the

34:58

body back home. And now

35:00

our group is going to the location.

35:05

We have confirmed that the soldier's body could be in the

35:07

cellar. Yukov

35:15

has been texting with the mother of the

35:17

missing Ukrainian soldier. His name

35:19

is Aleksandr Kresuk, Sasha to friends

35:21

and family. The team

35:24

works its way past shredded trees,

35:26

a mangled tractor, empty artillery crates,

35:28

and heaps of rubble. Any

35:31

wrong step could trigger an anti-personnel

35:33

mine or a buried mortar round.

35:36

In fact, just a few weeks

35:38

earlier, Yukov tripped a mine here.

35:41

He lost an eye in the blast. Now

35:44

he's back again searching for Sasha.

35:49

He was brought by his fellow soldiers to the cellar.

35:52

The cellar has collapsed and the body is lying

35:54

there under the rubble. So we

35:56

will now excavate and look for the guy. A

36:02

slab of concrete is blocking the way

36:04

in, so a team member stabs at

36:06

it with a big iron rod. We

36:10

are breaking the slab now. We will hold

36:12

it out and dig further, because

36:15

there is already some smell. There

36:18

may be a body in there. Jukov

36:22

climbs down into the darkness. His

36:24

headlamp flashes left and right, but he

36:26

can't locate the body. All

36:28

he can see is rubble and dirt. Just

36:32

then a grey tabby kitten comes from

36:34

nowhere, and jumps on

36:36

Jukov's shoulder and rubs against his cheek. A

36:41

kitten came up to us, and he's been

36:44

hanging around this cellar. What

36:46

a handsome cat! You came to

36:48

us, yes, just like the souls

36:50

who come by, and wander next to

36:52

us. The kitten

36:54

kept jumping on his shoulder and jumping to

36:57

the one specific place. And

36:59

Alexei thought, okay, let's try

37:01

to dig where the cat comes. And

37:04

they take their tools, they dig in,

37:07

and they find the Ukrainian soldier he's

37:09

been looking for. So

37:11

in that way he felt that the

37:13

kitten was a soul of that

37:16

soldier, a soul

37:18

who came to point his location.

37:28

The team has been searching for Sasha

37:30

for weeks, with his mother anxiously

37:32

awaiting the news. And

37:34

now they've found what they think are his remains. Jukov

37:37

sends the family a photo of a silver

37:39

cross and chain they recovered in the basement.

37:42

Sasha's mother recognizes it instantly.

37:46

She texts Jukov and thanks him, and says

37:48

his work is priceless. It's

37:50

an island of gratitude in a sea of

37:52

sorrow. I

37:55

understand that we took away the last hope from her,

37:57

a mother's hope to have

38:00

for Chetkin's home, home alive.

38:07

Yukov's phone buzzes all the time.

38:10

Desperate relatives of fallen Ukrainian soldiers

38:13

implore him to look for their

38:15

sons, husbands, and brothers. Military

38:18

units typically carry away their dead,

38:20

but in the chaos of combat,

38:22

it's not always possible. So

38:24

there's a seemingly endless supply of work

38:26

for Yukov's team. The

38:29

body is partially burned. The

38:31

helmet is on the head. The left

38:33

lower leg is partially missing. They

38:36

document each location and set of

38:38

remains carefully. The bodies of

38:41

Ukrainian soldiers are often returned to

38:43

their families for burial. The

38:45

bodies of Russian fighters are sometimes traded

38:47

with the enemy for those of fallen

38:50

Ukrainians. Yukov reckons his

38:52

team has collected the remains of a

38:54

thousand people since 2022. They

39:00

post videos of their work on social media. Yukov

39:03

wants to show fellow Ukrainians that their heroes

39:05

are being carried for. And he also uses

39:08

the videos to speak directly to

39:11

Russian audiences in Russian to show

39:13

them what this war is costing.

39:17

What is it all for? Is it because one person

39:19

has gone mad and decided that

39:21

he could rule the whole world and destroy everyone

39:23

who opposes him? Well, this

39:25

is madness. This

39:28

is madness. Right. Alexei

39:36

Yukov's dedication to the dead didn't start here.

39:40

It goes back to his childhood and back to tragedies

39:43

that devastated this part of Eastern Europe. In

39:47

the early 1930s, the brutal policies of

39:50

Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin triggered widespread

39:52

famine around 4 million Ukrainians

39:56

Then came World War II. Ukraine

39:59

was a... combat zone, the Red

40:01

Army against the forces of Nazi Germany.

40:05

In the desperate fighting, both sides often

40:07

buried their dead in mass graves, if

40:09

they had time for burials at all.

40:13

More than half a century later, Jukov

40:15

rode his bicycle to a nearby forest,

40:17

the site of a big battle. He

40:20

was just a kid. The ground around him

40:22

was strewn with the wreckage of war. I

40:29

began to figure out these were Soviet

40:31

style boats, not German,

40:34

and Soviet belts, and Soviet

40:36

bullets. I realized that

40:38

these were Soviet soldiers. There

40:40

were hundreds of them. The whole forest

40:43

was covered with bones. I

40:45

started to collect them and put them in one place, and

40:47

I wondered, how could

40:49

they be forgotten? It's someone's grandfather, someone's

40:52

grandmother. So I started

40:54

collecting the bones. And

40:56

this was my first encounter with war. From

41:01

this time on, Jukov says he felt

41:03

an intense connection with the dead. He

41:06

says as a boy, he used to dream about them

41:08

at night. He sensed their

41:10

spirits and felt a duty to help

41:13

their souls find peace. He

41:15

said, these are humans,

41:17

and probably families of these

41:19

dead bodies don't even know where

41:22

their relatives are. Solomia

41:25

says that according to Ukrainian

41:27

Orthodox tradition, a dead person's

41:29

soul lingers among the living

41:31

for 40 days. But

41:33

for a soul to be

41:36

free and to be able to be

41:38

calm, one needs

41:40

to be buried properly with

41:42

all the rituals and maybe

41:44

prayers. So funerals

41:47

is a very important part

41:50

of Christian tradition, and

41:52

there is no way a person is

41:55

not buried because then the soul cannot

41:57

find peace. his

42:00

life calling, bringing peace to forgotten

42:02

bones in the forest. Before

42:05

Russia's invasion, he led a group

42:07

of volunteers exploring the Ukrainian countryside

42:09

for the unclaimed dead of World

42:11

War II. Yukov

42:13

figures he's helped gather the bones of more than

42:15

8,000 souls. Yukov

42:21

is compact and muscular, a martial

42:23

arts instructor by trade. He's 38

42:26

and lives with his wife and child

42:28

in the eastern Ukrainian city of Sloevyansk.

42:31

He has a bushy beard but

42:33

no mustache, which makes him look

42:35

a bit like an Amish farmer,

42:37

except for his camouflaged combat helmet

42:39

and orange tinted sunglasses. He

42:42

looks like a just a normal

42:44

guy wearing a military uniform. He's

42:47

very calm, he's very solid,

42:50

he's actually very pleasing to talk to.

42:53

And also he knows a

42:55

lot about history. Nothing points me to

42:57

the fact that for 30 years he's

43:00

been gathering the remains of the dead

43:02

bodies. Another

43:08

day, another battlefield. This

43:11

time Yukov and his team are recovering

43:13

the remains of a Russian soldier. The

43:15

body is at the bottom of a staircase in

43:17

a bombed-out building. Russian forces sometimes

43:19

booby trap the bodies of fallen fighters. So

43:26

one of the team members ties a long sturdy strap

43:28

around the ankle of the corpse. From a safe distance,

43:30

Yukov counts to three. Then

43:40

they haul in the strap, moving the body just a

43:42

few feet. That's all it takes. Once

43:46

they've done this, they know it's safe to move

43:48

by hand. Since

43:54

the beginning of the war, Yukov has

43:56

only lost one man, a volunteer named

43:58

Denis, who drove a car over

44:00

an anti-tank mine. Before the

44:02

war, Denis was one of Y Kuov's

44:05

kickboxing students. Another of

44:07

Y Kuov's students is 27-year-old Artur Simenko.

44:09

Artur was 14 when he first met

44:12

Y Kuov. Getting

44:15

to know him changed everything. He's

44:18

become a father, a friend, a

44:20

brother to me. He's told

44:22

me so many things. And now, during

44:24

the war, I'm still learning from him.

44:26

He became my

44:29

spiritual teacher. Before

44:32

Russia's invasion, Artur helped Y Kuov

44:34

search for the dead in the

44:36

old World War II battlefield. When

44:38

this new war came, Artur was

44:40

ready again. Everything

44:45

I know comes from Alexey, about

44:47

how to treat the dead. I

44:50

learned about what happens if you treat the dead

44:52

badly. You will get it

44:54

back fast. When

44:56

the war with Russia started, it was very

44:59

calm towards the bodies of Russian soldiers. One

45:02

should respect death. Being

45:08

calm and respectful toward the

45:10

remains of Russian soldiers is

45:12

something that Solomia says can

45:14

challenge widespread perceptions in Ukraine.

45:16

War breeds collective hatred. So

45:19

for many Ukrainians, it can be hard

45:21

to see a dead Russian soldier as

45:24

a human being. But Y

45:26

Kuov teaches that once Russian soldiers have

45:28

fallen, they belong to the world of

45:30

the dead, and they deserve a

45:32

measure of dignity and honor. There

45:35

is a lot to learn from Y Kuov's philosophy

45:37

of respecting the dead. He

45:39

says, please respect also the bodies

45:41

of Russian soldiers. Late

45:52

one night, Y Kuov and his team

45:54

unload the bodies they've collected from a

45:56

combat zone near Bakhmout. He

45:58

searches the pockets for identifying information.

46:01

The bodies are in bad shape. But on

46:03

one soldier, Yukov finds a neck chain with

46:05

a kind of dog tag. Here

46:08

is an identifying sign. It's an ID

46:10

badge and an Orthodox cross.

46:16

The badge is made of aluminum. It's

46:18

in poor condition, so it's hard to see. I'll try

46:20

to clean it up a little. This

46:25

is a Russian serviceman. How long have you

46:27

been lying there? Three months, maybe? Yukov

46:31

takes detailed notes, making sure any

46:33

possessions he finds on the Russian

46:35

body stay with it. It

46:37

is also important for him to

46:40

bring not only the body, but

46:42

the personal belongings of the

46:44

body to their family. Because for

46:46

families, it's also something very sexual

46:49

and important. For example, if

46:51

one is religious and they have a cross, it's

46:54

important for the family to have this

46:56

cross of their son with

46:58

them after. So he is taking

47:00

care of every small detail

47:02

or personal thing. With

47:10

the AP's camera rolling, Yukov grows angry

47:12

about the scene before him, a line

47:14

of 11 dead Russian

47:16

soldiers and the leg of another, probably

47:19

a Ukrainian soldier. In

47:21

World War II, many Russians and Ukrainians

47:23

came together to fight the Nazis. And

47:26

now, since 2014, we are collecting bodies, again. And we see the horrors

47:28

of war, again. War

47:35

has one faith, what you see here. It's

47:37

stupidity and death. And no matter what they

47:41

call it, a special military operation or

47:43

whatever, it doesn't change the essence. War

47:48

has one faith, death and stupidity

47:50

and horror. And we don't need

47:52

this war. Why did they come

47:55

to us with this war? at

48:00

the men laid out on the night grass.

48:03

Suddenly he switches from speaking in

48:05

Ukrainian to Russian. He

48:07

has a message for the parents of dead

48:10

Russian soldiers. I will tell them

48:12

in Russian. Why

48:16

did you raise your children? For

48:19

a bright future or for death?

48:21

You're crazy. You carried this child

48:23

in your womb. Do you remember

48:26

how happy you were with every first step

48:28

of his? How happy you were with every

48:30

new word that your child said? And

48:33

now your Russian boys are lying here

48:35

in Ukrainian soil. Why did you let

48:37

them come here? You knew what

48:40

this was all about, that they were going

48:42

to kill. It's

48:49

late. Yukov and his

48:51

exhausted team prepare the bodies for transport

48:53

to a morgue. The

48:55

Russian soldiers will likely be bartered for

48:58

the remains of Ukrainian soldiers. And

49:01

as always, Yukov and his colleagues

49:03

treat the enemy with respect. We

49:06

are not fighting the dead, he says.

49:09

Our weapon is humanity and

49:12

a shovel. Thanks

49:19

to reporter Solomia Hera. This

49:22

story was produced by Stephen Smith. We

49:27

have links to the Associated Press' amazing

49:30

coverage of the war in Ukraine. Find

49:32

them at our website at revealnews.org. Our

49:35

lead producer for this week's show is

49:37

Michael Montgomery. Brett Myers edited the show.

49:40

We had help from Hanna Levin Tova

49:42

and Anna Choukour. Special thanks to AP

49:44

editors Jeannie Oum, Mary Rajkumar and Ron

49:46

Nixon. And reporter

49:48

Vladimir Yurchuk. Our show

49:50

was supported by the Pulitzer Center. Score

50:00

and sound designed by the dynamic

50:02

duo Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs

50:04

and Fernando Mamayo Arruda. Our interim

50:06

executive producers are Brett Myers and

50:08

Taki Telenides. Our theme music is

50:10

by Camarado, Lightning, support for reveals

50:13

provided by the Riva and David

50:15

Logan Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the

50:17

John D. and Catherine T. McArthur

50:19

Foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation,

50:21

the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the

50:23

Park Foundation, and the Hellman Foundation.

50:25

Reveal is a co-production of the

50:27

Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX.

50:30

I'm Al Ledson, and remember, there is

50:32

always more to the story.