0:00

I'm Shankar Vedantam, here to tell you about

0:02

a great mystery. That

0:04

mystery is you. As

0:07

the host of a podcast called Hidden Brain, I

0:10

explore big questions about what it means to

0:12

be human. Questions like, where

0:15

do our emotions come from? Why

0:17

do so many of us feel overwhelmed by

0:19

modern life? How can we

0:21

better understand the people around us? Discover

0:25

your hidden brain. Find us

0:28

wherever you get your podcasts. From

0:58

the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX,

1:01

this is Reveal. I'm Al Ledson.

1:05

It's late in the day, April 2014, when

1:08

a call comes in to the Santa

1:11

Barbara County Mental Health Crisis hotline. A

1:13

worried mom hasn't heard from her son in

1:16

days, and she's just found

1:18

a troubling video he posted online. The

1:21

dispatcher alerts the sheriff's office, and

1:23

deputies go out to his apartment for a welfare check.

1:27

When the young man answers the door, he's calm

1:29

and courteous. He says his

1:31

mom is overreacting, and he's fine.

1:34

They found him to be polite. The officer had

1:36

him call me on his phone

1:39

to let me know that he was okay.

1:42

He passed the phone to one of the officers who asked

1:44

me, why did I call

1:46

the police? Your son is fine. The

1:49

deputies determine that he looks and sounds okay,

1:53

there are no signs he's in danger, so they leave. But

1:56

they had no idea he had

1:58

weapons and ammo stockpiled. in his room.

2:02

Just over three weeks later he would

2:04

commit a mass shooting in Isla

2:07

Vista, California, a college town

2:09

near Santa Barbara. He killed six

2:11

people and injured 14 others

2:13

before taking his own life. It's

2:18

been 10 years since his tragedy and

2:21

like with any mass shooting a central

2:23

question haunts what happened. Could

2:25

anything have been done to

2:28

prevent it? In the decades

2:30

since the Isla Vista attack, violence

2:32

prevention experts have studied this case

2:35

and changed the way they think about

2:37

mass shootings and the people who commit

2:39

them, namely how to intervene. There's

2:43

a woman who has been contributing to this

2:45

effort. Her name is Chin Roger. She's

2:47

the mother of the shooter and she's speaking publicly

2:50

for the first time. I just

2:52

want to share what I have discovered about

2:55

my son's circumstances that led him to

2:57

this horrific indescribable

3:01

crime, right? I hope that

3:04

my hindsight will be your foresight.

3:07

Mother Jones journalist Mark Fullman has been

3:09

talking with Chin for several years. He

3:12

starts the story in Southern California. It's

3:18

a crisp bright day in Malibu. I'm arriving

3:20

in an office along a busy stretch of

3:22

the Pacific Coast Highway. Thanks for the ride.

3:24

Drive safely. I've been reporting

3:27

on gun violence and how to

3:29

prevent mass shootings

3:33

for more than a decade. I've

3:36

interviewed hundreds of people from all

3:38

sides of this problem. Survivors, victims,

3:40

parents, FBI agents, psychologists. Chin

3:43

Roger has a perspective that I had never

3:45

heard before. Hi, hi, hi. Good

3:49

to see you again. I've been talking

3:51

to Chin for more than two years

3:53

about what happened with her son, Elliot.

3:56

We've had dozens of conversations as I dug

3:58

further into this tragedy. So we're

4:00

just talking like we do. Chin

4:04

made the tough choice to become a student

4:06

of her son's case. Today, for our meeting,

4:08

she's brought some of her personal writings. Yes,

4:14

I found some notes here. My

4:16

life, as I knew it, ended that day in 2014. I'll

4:19

never get over this. What is the meaning

4:22

now of my life? There's no joy in

4:25

anything that I do. I

4:27

cannot escape this pain. This pain, not

4:29

just the pain of losing my son

4:31

in this way, but of the

4:34

suffering that his actions have caused so many. What

4:37

is the purpose now? What can I do? It

4:39

has to be something beyond this pain. All

4:42

my life will not make any sense. In

4:45

the aftermath of the shooting, she avoided the

4:47

media frenzy. She feared speaking

4:49

publicly would only hurt the victim's parents more.

4:52

My son chose this, to do this, and

4:55

their children did not. I'm always

4:57

constantly thinking of the victim's family,

4:59

who did not ask for this,

5:02

what they must be going through. So

5:04

that's why I feel being silent about

5:06

this is what I've chose to be for many,

5:09

many years. For a while, Chin wouldn't

5:11

even turn on a TV unless it was set to a

5:13

cooking channel. She couldn't stomach the news

5:15

or anything that might remind her of what her son

5:17

did. But eventually,

5:19

she started researching mass shootings online

5:21

and learning about violence prevention. As

5:24

the years go by, I open myself to

5:27

listening to the news. When there is mass

5:29

shooting, painfully, I listen

5:33

to it. I want to know more.

5:35

And I saw some similarities

5:38

between the behavior and the

5:40

circumstances. She started to recognize there

5:42

were patterns of behavior that her son, Elliot,

5:44

shared with other mass shooters. And

5:47

in the beginning, it will always be, why

5:49

did this person do it? It's the same.

5:52

But then you find out that

5:54

there are circumstances, there are behaviors

5:56

that came out. Chin

5:58

realized she had more information. about her son that

6:00

could be valuable to share. That

6:02

led her to violence prevention experts

6:05

like Dr. Steven White, a forensic

6:07

psychologist. She was willing to talk

6:09

with me about her experience.

6:12

And what she said was, is, I want

6:15

to help you by telling you what

6:18

I knew about my son

6:21

that you don't know or didn't

6:23

know. I want to

6:25

contribute to the knowledge

6:27

base so that these things

6:29

don't happen. Years before

6:31

meeting Chin, Dr. White had written a deep

6:33

case study on what led to Elliot's attack

6:36

and he knew how much Elliot's parents had

6:38

struggled to try and help their troubled son.

6:40

His parents were good people. They were divorced.

6:42

They were very concerned about him and tried

6:45

to help him. And unfortunately, this still happened.

6:47

And so to live

6:49

with that is a pretty

6:51

terrible curse. How would you like to

6:53

be the parent of a mass murderer?

6:57

Try that one. It's horrible.

7:06

Chin grew up in Malaysia. At age

7:08

17, she moved to England and would go on

7:10

to train in healthcare. She sometimes worked

7:12

as a nurse on movie sets, productions

7:15

like The Princess Bride and Indiana

7:17

Jones and The Last Crusade. Around

7:20

that time, she met Peter Roger, a

7:22

photographer and filmmaker. The

7:25

two married and in 1991, they

7:27

had Elliot. Four

7:29

years later, they had a daughter and then the

7:31

family moved to Los Angeles. Elliot

7:34

was seven when his parents divorced. By

7:37

that age, he was already having a hard

7:39

time struggling with developmental

7:41

disabilities. Let me just

7:44

say that his personality, this combination

7:46

of long-term factors, there

7:48

was probably some contribution from

7:51

features associated with the autism

7:54

spectrum. But I

7:56

want to be very careful to point

7:58

out that that was not the cause.

8:00

there's never one cause. It's

8:02

a number of factors that come together

8:05

in a perfect storm at a certain

8:07

time in a certain context. He

8:10

did have issues early on with social

8:13

awkwardness and not being able to speak

8:15

and being very anxious in social situations

8:18

and had a very hard

8:20

time as he got into adolescence, talking

8:22

to girls, meeting girls. And

8:25

he always have issues with making

8:27

friends. So all the time his

8:29

issues has been social. How to

8:31

talk to anybody, not just girls at

8:33

the time. He was bullied

8:36

extensively. Elliot's

8:42

parents tried different schools. They

8:44

got him special education support,

8:46

therapy, and help from social

8:48

workers. After high school,

8:50

he dabbled in community college, but seemed

8:52

stuck and unhappy. When

8:54

he told his parents, he wanted to move

8:56

70 miles up the coast to enroll at

8:58

Santa Barbara city college. They hoped

9:01

it would expand his horizons. Chin

9:03

range for further support there, hiring

9:05

life coaches for him around his age to

9:08

work on his social skills. Elliot

9:11

lived in Isla Vista for more than two years.

9:14

Despite the support, he grew

9:16

more isolated, angry, and

9:18

desperate, but

9:21

he was able to hide this inner torment. No

9:24

one trying to help him, including his mom,

9:26

had any sense that he was planning violence.

9:34

We begin this hour in Isla Vista,

9:36

California. The small college town near Santa

9:38

Barbara continues to grieve this morning after

9:41

a killing spree late Friday night. Authorities

9:44

say 22 year old Elliot Roger

9:46

apparently took his own life after

9:48

killing six others and injuring the

9:50

attack. A form of revenge by

9:52

an angry young man, one who

9:54

was hellbent on blaming women for

9:56

his own personal loneliness. Afterward,

10:00

the media focused on a menacing video

10:02

Eliot had posted online. He'd

10:05

also written a long, hate-filled screed

10:07

he called his life story, complaining

10:10

about being rejected by girls. Extreme

10:14

misogyny quickly became the explanation for

10:16

what he'd done. He was what's

10:19

known as an incel, someone who

10:21

is involuntarily celibate. Rogers

10:24

is a hero to many young men like him.

10:27

His stories highlighted comments he'd posted

10:29

on incel forums online. YouTubers

10:31

racked up millions of views by reposting

10:34

his rant in their amateur true crime

10:36

videos. The narrative of

10:38

Eliot as the incel killer took

10:40

on a life of its own, inspiring

10:43

copycat attackers. The Secret Service released

10:45

a study this week on the

10:47

growing terrorism threat of the so-called

10:49

incel movement. Followers of

10:51

the incel movement blame acts of

10:53

violence on an inability to form

10:56

relationships with women. The reality

10:58

is more complicated. He

11:04

didn't say I'm starting a movement called

11:06

the incel movement. But

11:09

he was on certain sites expressing

11:12

these views. He unknowingly

11:14

became this anti-hero

11:17

for this group. After

11:19

every mass shooting the public wants to

11:21

know why, the question of motive. Someone

11:24

wants a simple explanation. But concluding

11:26

that this attack happened because Eliot said he

11:28

hated women is too simple. Prevention

11:31

experts are more focused on how shooters get to

11:33

the point of attacking. There are

11:35

patterns of behavior and warning signs they share.

11:39

The more we look at these case studies, the

11:42

more we can see what's consistent and

11:44

also the variety or the differences

11:46

among different shooters.

11:50

We know there are certain risk factors

11:53

or behavioral warning signs that

11:57

are associated with eventual violence.

12:00

I've been reporting on this topic for a long

12:02

time, and digging deep into these stories can be

12:04

delicate for the victims who suffered

12:06

and the risk of bringing the wrong kind of attention to

12:09

the shooters, as many of them want. But

12:11

this case has valuable lessons for prevention.

12:14

What happened in the months leading up to

12:16

the tragedy in Isla Vista, a trove of

12:18

previously unreported case evidence, and Chin's

12:21

account of her experience all point

12:23

to the missed chances to intervene. It's

12:26

very, very difficult to see all of

12:28

this when you are in it. Now

12:30

I can see that, but at that time, no way

12:33

I would see that as

12:36

a circumstance or as a behavior that

12:38

is going to lead to mass shooting

12:40

or even suicide. All

12:45

these years, even now, I have never,

12:47

never saw him as suicidal.

12:53

Elliot Rodger didn't just suddenly

12:55

snap. He was a troubled

12:58

person who spiraled into crisis over a

13:00

long period of time and planned what

13:02

he would do. What

13:04

were the missed warning signs? Right

13:06

now I'm going on a little tour through Isla

13:09

Vista on a

13:11

Friday night. Never-before-seen

13:13

evidence brings new understanding

13:15

to this tragedy. That's

13:18

next on Reveal. Support

13:28

for Reveal comes from Odoo. What

13:30

is Odoo? Well, Odoo is a lot of

13:32

things. Odoo is award-winning management

13:34

software. Odoo is total

13:37

control of your entire company in one

13:39

place. Odoo is a

13:41

suite of fully integrated applications for

13:43

CRM, accounting, sales, HR,

13:45

inventory, manufacturing, and everything in

13:47

between. Basically, Odoo is

13:50

what your business needs to succeed.

13:53

If you're ready to get more

13:55

done in less time, visit odoo.com.

13:57

That's odoo.com. Business

14:00

Management Made Simple. This

14:09

podcast is supported by Americans United for

14:12

Separation of Church and State. Americans

14:14

United defends your freedom to live as yourself

14:16

and believe as you choose, so long as

14:18

you don't harm others. Core

14:20

freedoms like abortion rights, marriage

14:23

equality, public education, and even

14:25

democracy itself rest upon

14:27

the wall of separation between church

14:29

and state. A network of anti-democratic

14:31

groups are attacking these freedoms, seeking

14:33

to force us all to live

14:35

by their narrow beliefs. Americans

14:38

United is fighting back. Freedom

14:40

without favor and equality without

14:42

exception. Learn more about AU's

14:44

work at au.org.mj. At

14:51

Radiolab, we love nothing

14:53

more than nerding out

14:55

about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

14:57

But, but, we do also

14:59

like to get into other kinds

15:02

of stories. Stories about policing, or

15:04

politics, country music, hockey, sex, of

15:06

both. Regardless of whether we're

15:09

looking at science or not science, we

15:11

bring a rigorous curiosity to get you

15:13

the answers. And hopefully make you see the

15:15

world anew. At Radiolab, adventures on the edge

15:17

of what we think we know. Wherever

15:20

you get your podcasts. From

15:26

the Center for Investigative Reporting and

15:28

PRX, this is Reveal. I'm

15:31

Al Ledsen. I want

15:33

to tell you a story about a

15:35

17-year-old high school kid named Brandon. He

15:38

made a comment to a classmate while waiting for

15:40

the school bus. Another student was

15:42

listening. It scared her,

15:44

so she told a teacher what Brandon

15:46

said. Don't come to school

15:48

on Friday. I'm coming back here with

15:51

my dad's semi-automatic and I'm shooting up

15:53

the place. He also

15:55

bragged about having the code to his dad's

15:57

gun safe. The teacher told

15:59

the principal. and the principal alerted

16:01

the leader of the school district's threat

16:03

assessment team. This

16:05

team is a group of

16:08

around a dozen people, psychologists,

16:10

counselors, administrators, cops. Every

16:12

week, they gather around a conference table

16:15

at a district office to review cases.

16:18

When they heard about what Brandon said,

16:20

the threat assessment team jumped into action.

16:23

His comments suggested a plan, with

16:25

specific details about when and where.

16:28

A school resource officer was sent to his home

16:30

to talk to him and his parents. They

16:33

wanted to see if Brandon had access

16:35

to firearms, and he didn't. When

16:37

the team psychologists met with him, Brandon

16:40

told her he'd just been joking around.

16:44

But she learned he'd been depressed and

16:46

lonely, possibly suicidal.

16:50

He was crying out for attention, and that's

16:52

what the team gave him and his family.

16:55

A wraparound strategy of counseling

16:57

after school activities and support.

17:00

The threat stopped, his grades improved,

17:02

he went on to graduate. But

17:05

you've never heard Brandon's story because

17:08

it didn't end up in tragedy. In

17:11

the past few years, more and more school

17:14

systems have started using this approach. Twenty

17:16

states now require threat assessment in

17:18

public schools. Many private companies

17:21

and community agencies are using it too.

17:24

Usually, these teams are led by a

17:26

psychologist like Dr. Cheryl Lynn Lee. There

17:29

are a multitude of cases where there

17:31

were individuals who were on the pathway to violence

17:33

and they were stopped. We don't talk

17:35

about them. And so the public

17:37

doesn't know that these interventions

17:40

are being deployed and are working. Dr.

17:44

Lee helped start the first threat

17:46

assessment team at the Santa Barbara

17:48

Sheriff's Office, who was formed

17:50

in the years after the mass shooting

17:52

in Isla Vista, where 22-year-old Elliot

17:55

Roger Killed six people and

17:57

wounded and traumatized many others.

18:00

There was a lot of information available and so

18:02

how do we had a threat assessment teams? Maybe

18:05

there would have been some more information gathering that

18:07

we would have done and if we had would

18:09

there have been a different outcome. Elliott,

18:12

a different counsellors therapist lies coaches.

18:15

He was even visited by the

18:17

sheriff's deputies a few weeks before

18:19

his rampage, but there was no

18:21

threat assessment Seen back. This know

18:24

group of people who specialized in

18:26

collecting and connecting these dots. experts

18:28

in the field have long studied

18:30

and learned from this case. Journalists

18:33

Mark Fuhrman reports on the way

18:35

it's help them understand the patterns

18:38

and the psychology of mass shooters

18:40

were to look for and how

18:42

to intervene when someone may be

18:44

turning dangerous. Most.

18:49

Mass shooters give off warning signs in the

18:51

weeks and months before their attacks. These

18:54

red flags include disturbing comments, abrupt

18:56

changes, and routine, a focus on

18:58

grievances, Often. There's evidence

19:00

of suicidal thinking and a strong interest

19:02

in guns. Elliot Rodger

19:04

had a lot of these warning signs, but

19:06

he was also really good at hiding them.

19:09

One. Thing that stood out was

19:11

this the secrecy. Or

19:13

rather elaborate plan. To. Kill

19:16

other people and himself that that can

19:18

be remain hidden. That's. Doctor

19:20

Stephen White, the threat assessment expert who

19:22

did the deep study of Elliott's case.

19:25

Of. All the cases he's exam and over

19:27

the past forty years this one stands out.

19:30

Elliott left behind so much evidence showing how

19:32

he got to the point of attacking. This

19:35

includes is online activity is purchases,

19:38

the long screen he sent out

19:40

and more. We. Study those. Plus,

19:42

he had a fairly large body

19:44

of videos, so we look at

19:46

that data as a way to

19:49

understand. More. About why

19:51

people do this and what to look for

19:53

as they progress. He. Recorded a

19:55

handful of videos on his phone in

19:57

the final months and kept them mostly

19:59

hidden. Until the end. There.

20:02

Was also more. His. Mother

20:04

Chin Roger received a box of Elliot's

20:06

things after the sheriff's investigation. Inside.

20:09

Were to hand written diaries covering the

20:11

last four years of his life. She.

20:14

Shared those with me. I

20:16

don't know whether that there is

20:18

a way to understand it because nobody

20:20

can understand it, but it has Disney

20:23

open my eyes to sudden behavior of

20:25

his. Diaries. Were a

20:27

hidden record of alias descent into read and

20:29

despair. Things. Took a really

20:32

dark turn about ten months before the

20:34

attack the most. Consequential triggering

20:36

is and for him was

20:39

when he was humiliated. The

20:42

Event of Summer Twenty Thirteen. We.

20:46

Can reconstruct what happened from his writings

20:48

and from the sheriff's investigation. Elliott

20:51

plans to make a last ditch effort

20:53

to lose his virginity before turning twenty

20:55

two. On a

20:57

Saturday night in July, he gets up his nerve

20:59

with a few shots of vodka and heads for

21:01

the center of i love just As Party scene.

21:04

The Ocean from houses along Dell Playa Drive.

21:07

He got intoxicated. Stating

21:09

that that doesn't the clarets to attend

21:12

the weekend parties. That was his last

21:14

hope to find the Gulf and. Hope

21:18

dies loss and when it does.

21:20

All this last season's a hit

21:22

and prevents. Hope

21:24

dies lasts. Around

21:27

eleven thirty Pm he walks into a crowded

21:29

house party where hip hop is blasting and

21:31

kids are playing beer pong. Feeling.

21:34

Ignored, he goes back outside and up on to

21:36

a wooden platform set up along the sense line.

21:39

These. Makes of structures are common in the front

21:41

yards along Dell Playa a place for kids to

21:43

hang out and drink while watching the action on

21:45

the street. When. A few

21:47

others get up on the platform. Elliott starts

21:49

to insult them. And apparently

21:51

was rather have noxious and he

21:53

did something to provoke. Up

21:56

other people's. Been. Aggressive

21:58

toward him in. tried to push

22:02

some people off of this platform.

22:06

Elliot tries to shove some girls off the roughly

22:08

eight foot drop. He fails. A

22:11

couple of guys intervene and he ends up

22:13

landing hard on the pavement himself, cracking his

22:15

ankle. Then he goes to

22:17

another party nearby where he gets into another fight.

22:20

And he got into trouble there and was called a bunch

22:23

of names and got

22:25

booted out. And he says to

22:27

his neighbor who was there, I'm going to kill

22:29

them all. I'm going to kill myself. This

22:33

was months before. And of course, this was learned

22:36

about afterwards. But that kind

22:38

of aggression was in

22:40

a way practice or getting

22:42

more comfortable, but it was completely

22:45

ineffective on his part. Eventually

22:48

he makes his way home in the wee hours alone.

22:51

He's bruised up, his left eye swollen, his

22:54

ankle needs surgery. But worst

22:56

of all for him is the shame. And

22:59

in his journal, he actually wrote, I'm

23:01

just reading from his journal, humanity is

23:03

so cruel. I'm beaten up,

23:05

my leg broken. Not one

23:07

girl helped me to my apartment.

23:09

Not one single person called

23:12

for help. Now

23:14

today I realized I failed to see

23:16

what a huge triggering point that was for him,

23:19

public humiliation. He

23:22

had a severe degree

23:24

of narcissism, but it's the subgroup

23:26

referred to as the shy narcissist,

23:29

the person who has strong

23:31

feelings of entitlement. But

23:34

they're not in your face because

23:36

anytime they assert to try

23:38

to engage, it immediately triggers

23:40

these feelings of shame. So they withdraw, but

23:44

they feel very hostile, very

23:46

entitled and blaming everybody else.

23:49

And that's the bread flags that

23:51

we're looking for. a

24:00

therapist and looked happy when a childhood friend

24:02

visited. But secretly, in his

24:04

diary, he raged about the shame of getting

24:07

beaten up. He called the party

24:09

incident the final straw. Earlier

24:12

entries show that he fantasized about violence ever

24:14

since moving to Santa Barbara. Now

24:16

he was on the path to making it real. You

24:19

got to plan it. You got to

24:21

figure out how you're going to do it.

24:23

And that preparation can be

24:26

detected either behaviorally or in writings

24:28

or what people say. They

24:31

leak out their intention. 60 to

24:33

90 percent of attackers

24:35

tell a third party or post something that

24:38

says, I'm going to do this. Now, the

24:40

problem with that statistically is a lot of

24:42

people say things like that and nothing happens.

24:45

So you got to sift through the haystack

24:48

of threatening communications.

24:51

What we call it in our field is

24:54

leakage, right? Information that somebody's intending on committing

24:56

harm. That's Dr. Sherilyn

24:58

Lee again. These signals

25:00

can be subtle, innuendo, blame, failed

25:02

threats. School shooters often

25:04

claim to be just joking when asked about

25:07

their odd or disturbing comments. Leakage

25:10

can also be more overt. Like

25:12

when Elliot told his neighbor after the party, he

25:14

wanted to kill people. If this

25:16

case, it is rich with that sort of

25:18

material. And had

25:20

we had access to that material or knew the

25:22

right questions to ask again, maybe there

25:24

would have been a different outcome. We

25:27

now know that most people who

25:29

intend on committing acts of targeted

25:31

violence, there's leakage. Elliot's

25:33

videos had a lot of this. He

25:36

never uploaded most of them. Investigators found

25:38

the videos after the attack. This

25:41

one was recorded five weeks before.

25:44

Right now I'm going on a little tour

25:46

through Isla Vista. On

25:48

Friday night. This

25:52

is when all the college parties happen. Look

25:55

in there. There's a party

25:57

happening right now. Elliot

26:00

is driving down De Playa Drive as the

26:02

night gets busier. His phone is

26:04

mounted on the dashboard showing his view of the

26:06

road. Every time I

26:09

drive through this place, I am overcome

26:11

with rage. Well,

26:14

I've lived here for more than two

26:16

years in

26:19

loneliness. No one's

26:21

ever invited me to parties. He

26:23

slow rolls past the house lit up with string

26:26

lights and one next door with a platform overlooking

26:28

the street. And look, that's

26:31

the house I got beat up at when

26:33

I walked in on the party. That

26:37

was about almost a year ago

26:39

now. Although

26:42

this video in and of itself appears fairly

26:44

benign, with other information that we're able to

26:46

gather from these other resources, when you have

26:48

a functioning threat assessment

26:50

team, it might not seem so benign. Going

26:54

back to where he was humiliated shows how it's

26:56

still eating at him, fueling his

26:58

rage and his plan. The

27:00

location is about a block from where he would end

27:02

his rampage. There's no amount of

27:04

information that's unnecessary, I think, when we're doing threat

27:07

assessment, because it's ultimately looking

27:09

at the totality of the information together. The

27:12

video also shows planning behavior,

27:14

surveillance. According to

27:16

the sheriff's investigation, the same day Elliot made

27:18

this video, he'd been practicing at

27:20

a shooting range. No

27:22

one around him knew about these activities, but

27:25

these are the kinds of warning signs a

27:27

threat assessment team is more likely to uncover

27:30

and understand. They know how

27:32

to build rapport with someone like Elliot, and

27:34

would look into access to guns. About

27:37

two weeks later, Elliot makes another

27:39

video. He uploads this one

27:41

to YouTube, and calls it, Why Do Girls

27:44

Hate Me So Much? Hey,

27:48

Elliot Roger here. It's truly

27:50

a beautiful day. But,

27:54

as I've always said, a beautiful

27:56

environment is the darkest

27:59

hell. if

28:01

you have to experience it all alone. He's

28:04

standing by his parked car on a canyon

28:07

road, gesturing at the scenery. I've

28:09

been attending college in Santa Barbara for

28:11

about two and a half years now.

28:15

In those two and a half

28:18

years, I've experienced nothing but loneliness

28:20

and misery. And

28:22

my problem is girls. There's

28:26

nothing overtly threatening in this six-minute

28:28

video. Nothing violent. Around

28:31

the same time Elliot posts the video, he drops

28:33

out of communication with Chin, which she

28:35

tells me was very unlike him. As

28:37

I've not heard from him for a few days, I

28:40

google his name with the words,

28:42

"'Exident' Fall Hiking," as he

28:44

often went for hikes alone. He

28:47

likes the sunset. I fear that

28:49

he has fell off a cliff lying injured down

28:51

a ravine somewhere. She finds

28:53

Elliot's video. She's never known him

28:56

to post anything like this before. Came

28:58

across a video of him by the

29:00

roadside, not making any threats, indicating,

29:02

why don't you girls like me? I'm

29:05

polite. I'm a gentleman. She's

29:07

worried enough to call his social worker, who

29:10

becomes concerned Elliot might want to harm himself.

29:13

He says he'll call a crisis hotline in

29:15

Santa Barbara right away. Though

29:18

Chin didn't know it at the time, she

29:20

took exactly the step that violence prevention experts

29:22

hoped for. She made the

29:25

difficult choice to alert authorities about her

29:27

son. That sent

29:29

the sheriff's deputies to Elliot's apartment. Lieutenant

29:32

Joe Schmidt was the lead homicide detective

29:34

on the case. They contact the suspect

29:36

at the front door, and he presents

29:39

normal. He said

29:43

he was fine. He thought

29:46

his mom was overreacting. Lieutenant

29:49

Schmidt was not at the welfare check that

29:51

day, but he has an encyclopedic knowledge of

29:53

the case. At some

29:55

point, the deputies get mom on the phone,

29:57

and they say, hey, we're here with your

29:59

son. things to be fine. They have the

30:01

suspect talk to his mom and that was it.

30:03

There was no indicators and

30:06

we do these check the welfare's all the

30:08

time and it just seemed like one of those very

30:11

common college student is new to the area.

30:13

They're having a hard time connecting, you know,

30:15

they're away from home. It

30:18

was very consistent with the majority of those calls.

30:21

The deputies didn't know that over the past 17

30:23

months, Elliott bought three handguns

30:25

and a stockpile of ammunition at local

30:28

gun shops and that it was

30:30

all right there just beyond the apartment

30:32

door. What are your thoughts about

30:35

why they didn't ask to go inside? The

30:38

goal is to get this person help. You

30:40

know, unless there's an overt issue that shows

30:43

there's a crime, you know, being manifested or

30:45

they're going to hurt themselves, really the priority

30:47

is them. Like what can we do to

30:49

help you? There was no indicators

30:52

that the suspect was homicidal

30:54

or suicidal. Experts I

30:56

spoke with about this incident say the officers did

30:58

what they were supposed to do. There

31:00

was no legal basis for the deputies to

31:02

go inside. After

31:06

the welfare check, Chin felt relieved. Two

31:09

and a half weeks later, she drives up

31:11

to Santa Barbara to meet Elliott for their

31:13

monthly dinner, along with Elliott's younger sister. That

31:16

particular day didn't seem much different

31:18

from all the other dinners that

31:20

we have with him except him

31:22

eating more. Elliott

31:24

orders an extra sushi roll, which is unusual

31:27

for him and Chin's glad. He

31:29

was skinny. I was happy he was eating

31:31

more. To me, he's doing better, right? Until

31:34

you begin to relax. Since

31:37

the welfare check, Elliott had been texting and

31:39

talking with Chin. He told her

31:41

his spring classes were finishing up well. In

31:44

truth, he dropped out of school. What

31:47

Chin was seeing is something threat

31:49

assessment experts call unexpected brightening, a

31:51

better mood, a bigger appetite. Elliott

31:54

was calm because he was finally ready to

31:56

act. At the time,

31:58

Chin had no way of knowing that. were some of

32:00

the last in a long trail of warning signs.

32:04

I did not see that eating

32:06

more even binge eating as a

32:08

sign, a behavior change, but really

32:10

he's already made a plan. That's why he

32:12

feels free, he feels happy, you know, right?

32:14

But we don't see that. Five

32:18

days later he drove to the beach,

32:20

parked, and started recording again. Well,

32:24

this is my last video. It

32:27

all has to come to this. He

32:30

looks directly into the camera and announces what

32:32

he'd been planning for at least a year.

32:35

No one would see it until it was too late. Tomorrow

32:38

is the day of

32:41

retribution. There's

32:45

a common myth about mass shooters that they

32:47

just snap one day, that their actions can't

32:49

really be explained. That's untrue.

32:52

And you can see it in the way this attack played

32:54

out. It's

32:57

March of 2024, and I'm riding

32:59

through Isla Vista with Lieutenant Joe Schmidt in his unmarked SUV.

33:01

We're retracing the day of the massacre.

33:05

A warning for listeners,

33:07

this next part is disturbing, but the details are important.

33:10

Threat assessment experts have studied

33:12

what Elliot did that day. Those behavioral patterns

33:14

also help them understand what leads up to

33:16

these attacks. This

33:18

is the suspect's apartment complex. You can see

33:20

his apartment from this corner of the building.

33:22

Would you like to get out here? Yeah,

33:25

let's do that. We're

33:30

standing outside the gated courtyard of the two-story

33:32

complex where Elliot lived with two roommates, Weihan

33:34

Wang and Cheng Hong. So that's

33:37

where the suspect murdered his two roommates

33:39

and then a third victim who's a

33:41

friend of the roommates. Elliot

33:44

had complained about their loud video games and even

33:46

called the police four months before the attack, saying

33:49

one of them stole candles from him. He

33:53

used a knife to kill Wang and then Hong

33:55

as he returned from class. Then

33:57

he killed George Chen, a friend of theirs who killed

33:59

him. had come over around dinnertime, stabbing

34:01

each victim more times than the

34:03

last. The suspect was

34:06

escalating his level of violence with each

34:08

victim, almost like he was becoming more

34:10

confident and more empowered

34:12

to just inflict more damage. Elliott

34:17

had planned it out carefully. Investigators

34:19

found evidence suggesting he had rehearsed by

34:21

stabbing pillows and slashing at the sheets

34:24

on his bed. Back

34:28

in the SUV, we head a few blocks over

34:30

to the commercial center of town, where

34:32

Elliott went at 7.30 that evening. With

34:35

all the bodies still in the apartment, he takes

34:38

a shower, changes clothes,

34:41

and derives the Starbucks, gets a triple vanilla

34:43

latte. At the Starbucks,

34:45

he starts texting with his mom. Chin

34:47

had asked him earlier in the day to call when he

34:49

was finished with his classes. Now

34:51

he messages her back and says he'll call her tomorrow when

34:54

he's in his car. She replies,

34:56

why not today? He

34:58

tells her he feels like relaxing, that he's just finished

35:00

with his semester. Congrats, she

35:02

says. He tells her thanks. That

35:05

was the only video surveillance we had of him.

35:08

We got him purchasing the coffee, and

35:10

he's very calm when he makes the

35:12

purchase, calmly walks out, and

35:15

he goes back to his apartment. In

35:19

the aftermath, news reports labeled him

35:21

psychotic, but experts found he was

35:23

not. Getting in carrying

35:26

out a mass shooting requires organized thinking,

35:28

preparation. This was a long-developed

35:30

plan, and it was just starting. The

35:37

sheriff's report shows that just after 9

35:39

p.m., Elliott uploads his final video to

35:41

YouTube. He also sends out

35:44

an email to nearly three dozen people,

35:46

including his parents, counselors, and the apartment

35:48

manager. It contains a

35:50

screed detailing what he calls his life

35:52

story, 137 pages about his despair, His

35:56

rage against women, and his plans to

35:59

kill. Then. He

36:01

drives a few blocks and is black

36:03

Bmw and parks. He'd been

36:05

surveilling a sorority house. So the suspect

36:07

arrives. He's got a handgun, multiple rounds

36:10

of ammunition strapped to his waist in

36:12

a fanny packs, and he also has

36:14

a gallon of gas or we didn't

36:17

anticipate. Who is this? The fact that

36:19

the door as gonna be locked? He

36:22

tries to handle then starts banging on

36:24

the door. No one answers. To

36:27

be the gas can at the door

36:29

and goes back to his car where

36:31

spots three young women on the street

36:33

Bianca to Coke Catherine Cooper and Veronica

36:36

Weiss. The suspect pulls

36:38

up alongside of them. He

36:40

fires multiple rounds at all

36:42

three author hit. The.

36:48

Bullets severely injured Bianca and

36:50

kill her two friends Catherine

36:53

and Veronica. Elliott.

36:55

Didn't know them. He wanted

36:57

to kill any women he could. Nextel,

37:03

he drives a few blocks to a deli

37:05

mart and fires of people who flee inside.

37:07

Killing student Christopher Martinez.

37:13

He speeds off toward his next target. They'll

37:16

play a dry as ramming people with his

37:18

car and firing more shots along the way.

37:22

About eight minutes into the spree as

37:24

police close in, he does what many

37:26

mass shooters do before they can be

37:28

caught. Witnesses

37:30

here. One last shot. The.

37:33

B M W swerved and smashes into

37:35

a parked car. When.

37:37

They find the suspects he's got a clear gunshot

37:40

wound in his head and then that's where it

37:42

all ends. Thousands.

37:44

Of U C Santa Barbara students

37:46

and members of the community remembering

37:49

the six friends and Cielo students

37:51

killed are violent rampage that left

37:53

many others. Injured. My

37:55

bus silence on I discussed

37:57

earlier. Today. And

38:00

then Mr. Dewey, this is always going to be in

38:02

our hearts. When will

38:04

this insanity stop? When

38:08

will enough people say, stop this

38:10

madness? We don't have to live

38:13

like this. Too

38:15

many have died. We

38:17

should say to ourselves, not one

38:19

more. The

38:27

majority of mass shooters are people who have

38:29

decided to end their own lives by taking

38:31

others with them, whether they justify that with

38:33

hatred of women or other kinds of extremist

38:35

thought. In the

38:38

aftermath, the media quickly republished Elliot's

38:40

screed, calling it his manifesto. He

38:44

was depicted online as the leader of

38:46

a violent incel revolution, a

38:48

misleading narrative that continues today. Elliot

38:52

did post comments on fringe incel websites, but

38:54

a lot of his writing and comments suggest

38:56

he did not identify as an incel or

38:58

see himself as their leader. Yet

39:01

to this day, copycat attackers praise

39:03

him and media coverage keeps the

39:05

cycle going. Do

39:09

you think that it's accurate

39:11

to say that incel ideology is what caused

39:13

Elliot Roger to do what he did? No,

39:16

I don't think incel ideology in and of

39:18

itself caused him to do what

39:20

he did. I think maybe that helped him

39:22

justify the violence or helped him identify the

39:24

victims. Dr. Lee points to

39:27

how being in a party town like

39:29

Isla Vista amplified his suicidal thinking. If

39:31

his grievance is he can't connect with people

39:34

and he's constantly isolated, he's living

39:36

in that environment 24 hours a day, seven

39:38

days a week. He was surrounded by

39:40

what he wanted, but believed he could never have.

39:44

In upwards of 95% of the

39:46

cases we've worked, the persons are not well connected

39:48

socially and they're often

39:50

alone and they often

39:52

have thoughts of killing themselves.

40:00

are driven by suicide, no

40:02

matter what ideology they're wrapped in. I

40:04

do not think my son wanted, he

40:06

wanted to be famous. He

40:08

did not want to be a leader of any group. In

40:12

the end he was driven by his

40:14

perceived long suffering. And I

40:16

think at that late stage, his

40:19

perception of others, even

40:21

his family disappeared. God was

40:23

left with himself

40:25

with his own hopelessness, rage

40:28

and revenge. When

40:35

we come back, the Elliot Roger case

40:37

was the impetus for gun violence restraining

40:39

orders in this state. How

40:42

what happened in Isla Vista has

40:44

changed violence prevention in California and

40:46

across the country. You're

40:48

listening to Reveal. From

41:01

the Center for Investigative Reporting and

41:03

PRX, this is Reveal, a

41:05

Malletian. Inside

41:07

the Santa Barbara Sheriff's training facility,

41:09

framed photos and plaques line the

41:11

front hallway. One photo

41:14

shows a black BMW wrecked on

41:16

a street dotted with palm trees.

41:19

Two officers are looking over it. The

41:21

driver's doors open and airbag ballooning out

41:23

of the side. The

41:25

photo is a reminder of an event

41:27

that shook this community. Lieutenant

41:29

Joe Schmid was the lead homicide

41:31

detective on the case. Sometimes

41:34

there are certain cases we investigate

41:36

that maybe touch our soul a little bit more.

41:39

And this was definitely one of them. In

41:41

the years since the violent rampage a

41:43

decade ago, the sheriff's office

41:45

has built a program to try and

41:47

stop the next tragedy before it happens.

41:50

That's what brings Mother Jones journalist Mark

41:52

Follman here today to learn more

41:54

about how the case led to change. What

41:59

would you say were the case? the key

42:01

lessons learned from the Elliot Roger case in

42:03

terms of violence prevention and threat assessment. The

42:05

quicker the intervention,

42:08

the higher likelihood of

42:10

lives being saved. I would rather spend

42:12

the time investigating these things that end

42:14

up being nothing than not doing it

42:17

and then having that one slip away.

42:20

Before the rampage, sheriff's deputies went to

42:22

Elliot Rogers' apartment for the welfare check,

42:25

but they didn't run a records check for guns

42:27

or go inside. Let's say

42:29

there's a similar situation today. How

42:32

would that be handled now? I'll have dispatch check them

42:34

and see if they have weapons issued to them. Matter

42:37

of fact, when I promoted to

42:39

sergeant in 2016, my first day

42:41

here was a check to welfare,

42:43

almost identical circumstances. And I

42:45

thought, well, I know how these have gone down in the

42:47

past, but because of what I know from 2014, and

42:51

I even asked him consent to search his

42:53

apartment, which I did and found nothing. It

42:56

wasn't just law enforcement rethinking how these

42:58

situations could have been handled differently. In

43:01

the aftermath, the intense media coverage lasted

43:03

for weeks. Grieving father

43:06

Richard Martinez joined other advocates

43:08

in pressuring California lawmakers to

43:10

tighten gun laws. Chris

43:12

Martinez's father, Chris was a victim of

43:14

the shooting at the Isla Vista deli.

43:17

His father was very active in getting

43:20

this additional tool approved and he lobbied

43:22

in Sacramento to get it done. Four

43:25

months later, in September 2014, California passed

43:27

a law designed to keep guns away

43:29

from people who might be at risk

43:31

of violence. It created

43:34

what's called a gun violence restraining order,

43:36

also known as a red flag law.

43:39

A judge decides if a person is

43:41

too dangerous to have firearms based on

43:43

evidence of erratic behavior, threats, concerns about

43:46

suicide. The gun violence restraining

43:48

order, that's an ability for

43:50

law enforcement or

43:52

family to, if they have a

43:54

concern about somebody

43:56

being a potential threat, it's created a

43:58

mechanism or a tool. for law enforcement

44:00

to seize weapons. California's

44:08

red flag law was one of the first in

44:10

the country. The policy began

44:12

to spread nationally, especially after the Parkland

44:14

High School massacre in 2018. Today

44:17

there are red flag laws in 22 states

44:20

and Washington, D.C. The

44:23

policy has strong bipartisan voter

44:25

support, though it still faces

44:27

fierce opposition from conservative politicians.

44:30

Research shows these laws are effective

44:32

for preventing suicide and mass shootings.

44:35

A study of more than 200 red flag

44:37

cases in California shows that the

44:40

law works. None

44:42

of the people who lost access to guns went

44:44

on to commit a shooting. The

44:47

law has been essential to Dr. Cheryl Lynn

44:49

Lee's team at the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office.

44:53

This has been a key tool in a lot

44:55

of, if not most, of the threat assessments

44:57

and threat management cases that we've worked in. There

45:00

was an individual a couple years ago and

45:03

he sent a text telling all of his friends

45:05

that he was suicidal. Someone contacted

45:07

Dr. Lee's team to alert them and

45:09

they moved quickly to step in. He

45:12

had 16 guns, two of which were buried

45:14

in the backyard. He was sewing armored

45:17

plating into the driver's side and passenger side

45:19

of his vehicle. So this

45:21

is somebody that wanted to do some damage. And

45:23

so law enforcement had the ability to

45:25

intervene before he could commit his carnage.

45:28

And this is when we found all the guns and so on and

45:30

so forth. They were all legally owned. We

45:33

decided to place the individual on the psychiatric

45:35

hold because clearly he wasn't well and needed

45:37

some help. The red flag

45:39

law allowed the threat team to temporarily

45:41

take away the guns and likely avoided

45:44

a disaster. Dr.

45:46

Lee tells me about another case she's currently

45:48

handling that involves a middle schooler who had

45:50

told a teacher he was feeling suicidal. Without

45:54

revealing his identity, she shows me some photos

45:56

from the case file. Is

45:59

this the 12 year old? Yeah. These

46:01

are the images that I spoke about. Yeah.

46:05

The most fascinating thing to me from a

46:07

psychologist perspective. We're looking at

46:09

papers from a school folder. There are

46:11

drawings of a person pointing a gun, dead

46:14

bodies, and blood. He'd

46:17

written in big bold letters, murder is on

46:19

my mind. These

46:21

papers are mixed in with homework and a

46:23

class schedule. PE, bio

46:26

English, Spanish school shooting, and then

46:28

worksheets. That's ambivalence.

46:30

In my mind, he's not fully committed.

46:33

We have opportunity there. Threat

46:35

assessment teams don't just look for warning

46:37

signs. They also look for what they

46:39

call positive inhibitors, things in

46:41

someone's life that can be used to support them. Yes,

46:43

he's planning a school shooting, but he's also planning on

46:46

turning in his homework. Two

46:48

months later, Dr. Lee tells me the student

46:50

is doing better. But

46:52

across the nation, younger and younger kids

46:54

are making threats and even committing attacks.

46:57

A six-year-old child shot his first grade

47:00

teacher in Virginia in 2023. This

47:04

disturbing trend underscores why early

47:06

intervention is so important. I've

47:09

looked at many cases where teams figured

47:11

out what was driving people into crisis

47:13

and connected with them successfully in

47:16

schools, in workplaces, and elsewhere.

47:24

No one can undo

47:29

all the suffering from the 2014 attack in Isla Vista, not for the victims

47:31

or their families and not for the killer's mother. Like

47:38

all suicidal mass shooters, Elliot Rodger lacked

47:42

hope. The importance of having hope echoes in

47:44

how his mother Chin is

47:46

finding her path forward. Question in terms of what

47:48

Chin is doing. Do you think it has benefit

47:50

to the public in

47:53

terms of raising more awareness of the community? about

48:00

these kinds of behaviors or how

48:02

parents or friends should react to

48:04

someone that's concerning them. I

48:08

think it does have value because,

48:10

I mean, her story is a

48:13

terrible one to have to tell, but

48:18

she can make people think. Dr.

48:22

Steven White is the psychologist you heard

48:24

from earlier. He's the foremost expert on

48:26

the Elliot Rodger case. Chin's

48:29

experience is beneficial to him and other

48:31

prevention experts because of the level of

48:33

detail that she has shared about her

48:36

son's slide into despair and violence. I

48:38

have a lot of respect for her and

48:41

parents like her who want

48:43

to do something to

48:45

contribute. What can I do so it

48:47

doesn't happen or happens

48:50

less often? And that's admirable. That's

48:53

meaningful. In

48:55

2022, Chin was invited to give a

48:57

keynote speech to more than a thousand

48:59

people at a National Threat Assessment Conference

49:01

in California. And it was a

49:03

very powerful talk and

49:07

very respectfully received.

49:10

It was hard for her, but she

49:12

has done something with this to

49:15

get some good out of this terrible event. In

49:20

the audience were psychologists, counselors,

49:22

police, FBI agents, and other

49:24

practitioners. It was the first

49:26

time she would stand on a stage and tell her

49:28

story. It wouldn't be the last.

49:32

It doesn't get any easier. Thank

49:36

you for your gracious invitation.

49:39

Since then, she's continued to speak at

49:41

threat assessment trainings around the country. So

49:44

that when you're out there talking to parents,

49:47

when you're out there talking to a

49:49

young man on the same pathway, you

49:52

have more insights on your mission to

49:54

stop targeted violence. I

49:56

believe that if a robust,

49:59

transfer- the program on Chin would

50:01

impress them, the outcome would

50:03

have been very different. If

50:06

I and all the children... More training

50:08

conferences are ahead on Chin's calendar, and she says

50:11

the reception she's gotten at her talks has helped

50:13

her heal. In the

50:15

past, when she would meet someone and they asked

50:17

if she had kids, she wouldn't even say she

50:19

had a son. But

50:21

now, when someone asks her,

50:24

she finds herself answering differently. She

50:26

says she has a son, and that she

50:29

lost him in a tragedy. I think one

50:31

of the most important things

50:33

I want to get through is that if

50:36

you are an individual with emotional, social

50:38

issues, contemplating suicide,

50:41

or this pathway, if you're a parent,

50:43

an individual around this place, call someone,

50:45

tell someone, do not be alone in

50:48

it. I also say I wish

50:50

that the nightmare that I'm living, that

50:53

the victims and the families are

50:56

living, these nightmares are real,

50:58

and these nightmares could be

51:00

your reality any day. So

51:03

we must work harder in coming together and try

51:07

and prevent this horrific ex from happening

51:09

again and again. As

51:16

if threat assessment research point to a

51:18

fundamental truth. People

51:20

who end up doing what Elliot Roger

51:22

did feel profoundly alone, and

51:25

part of them doesn't want to do it. They

51:27

need help. And

51:29

with the growth of this field nationally, more of

51:32

them may now get that help before

51:34

it's too late. That

51:45

story was reported by Mark Holman, National

51:47

Affairs Editor at Mother Jones Magazine. He's

51:49

also the author of the book Trigger

51:51

Points, Inside the Mission to Stop Mass

51:54

Shootings in America. There's so much

51:56

more to this investigation that you can find in

51:58

Mark's cover story on If

52:03

you or someone you know is having

52:06

thoughts of suicide, help is available. Call

52:09

or text 988 to reach

52:11

the 988 suicide and crisis

52:13

lifeline. Our

52:16

lead producer for this week's show is Michael

52:18

I. Schiller. Jenny Cosis edited the show. Special

52:21

thanks to James West for additional field

52:23

production and to Mother Jones editor Jeremy

52:25

Shulman. This week's episode was

52:27

fact checked by Maggie Duffy with support

52:30

from Reveals Nicky Frick. Victoria

52:32

Baranetsky is our general counsel. Our

52:34

production managers are Steven Raskone and

52:36

Zulema Cobb. Score and sound design

52:38

by the dynamic duo Jay Breezy,

52:40

Mr. Jim Briggs and Fernando Mamayo

52:43

Arruda. Our interim executive

52:45

producers are Brett Myers and Taki Telenides.

52:47

Our theme music is by Comorado, Lightning.

52:50

Support for Reveals provided by the

52:52

Riva and David Logan Foundation, the

52:54

Ford Foundation, the John D. and

52:56

Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Jonathan

52:58

Logan Family Foundation, the Robert Wood

53:00

Johnson Foundation, the Park Foundation and

53:03

the Hellman Foundation. Reveal is

53:05

a co-production of the Center for Investigative

53:07

Reporting and PRX. I'm Al

53:09

Ledson. And remember, there is always more

53:11

to the story. From

53:25

PRX.