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from

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center for reporting and prx

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this is reveal i'm

0:37

outlet is

0:40

february 26th, 2012

0:43

in sanford? florida or

0:45

, or five five

0:47

have hamburg lose the money rather than there's

0:49

a real such this guy our

0:52

psyches have no good or

0:54

is under others' homes george

0:56

zimmerman who's a part of the neighborhood

0:58

watch spotted seventeen year

1:00

old trees on mars coming home

1:02

from a convenience store zimmerman

1:04

was zimmerman a

1:12

few minutes after that interaction with

1:14

the nine one the operator trail

1:16

on one was dead according

1:19

to zimmerman martin punched him in the face

1:21

and paint his head against the targets

1:24

he says he shot martin's in the chest

1:26

in self defense is course

1:29

we'll never know martin side of the story

1:36

right

1:43

three my martin death mark the beginning

1:46

of a new chapter in the struggle for civil

1:48

rights and america a

1:51

nearly all white jury acquitted

1:53

george zimmerman of second degree murder and

1:55

manslaughter when you're

1:57

told cnn's anderson cooper the

1:59

one

1:59

the reasons for that acquittal was florida's

2:02

stand your ground law

2:04

well because of the heat is a moment in the stand

2:06

your ground and he had a right to defend

2:08

himself as he felt threatened

2:10

that his life was going to be taken away from him or

2:12

he was can have bodily harm

2:15

he had arrived florida

2:18

, the nation's first stand your ground law

2:20

back in two thousand and five five

2:22

allows people to use deadly force in public

2:24

places is they fear for their lives

2:27

even if they could safely was safely

2:30

martin's death put a national spotlight

2:32

on stand your ground prompting cause

2:35

for lawmakers to repeal and reform

2:37

repeal statutes but repeal

2:39

and reform is repeal what happened

2:42

and a decade since trailer martin's desk

2:44

stand your ground laws have expanded

2:47

your nearly sixty percent today

2:50

three quarters of the country thirty eight states

2:52

has some sort of policy in place and

2:55

as those laws have increased so

2:57

increased the body reveals

3:00

jonathan jones has been digging into how

3:02

stand your ground is expanding and

3:04

when it's okay to kill the name

3:06

was self defense

3:09

the hundreds of years self defense laws

3:11

basically boil down to this

3:13

if threaten

3:14

you had a duty to do whatever you couldn't

3:17

to escape before and using deadly force

3:20

and one exception to the studio return

3:23

the castle doctrine based

3:25

on the old adage a man's home is

3:27

his castle stand your ground

3:29

laws expand the castle doctrine

3:31

of places outside the home the

3:33

cars to hallways and any

3:36

place you have the legal right to be essentially

3:39

the world is your cast

3:41

and if you feel threatened for your life you

3:43

can use deadly force to defend yourself

3:46

even if it's possible to safely retreat

3:49

the lies mr when

3:51

blue in castillo morning alarm went off

3:54

he was in bed with his wife in winston

3:56

salem north carolina i remember

3:58

the morning he was really call

4:01

it's thirty six degrees outside it's

4:03

late january and twenty twenty byron

4:06

doesn't wanna get up you know one

4:09

of those days the you don't wanna don't nothing

4:12

i grew up in los angeles and then

4:14

i moved here to north carolina about

4:16

twenty five years ago he said

4:18

he wanted to get away from the gang violence in

4:21

l a he wanted his wife and kid

4:23

to have a safe for life the north

4:25

carolina he began working as

4:27

a maintenance person and he got

4:29

a job the cat and would apartments

4:32

it's in high point about twenty miles southeast

4:35

the winston salem i was getting

4:37

paid my job it was about

4:39

three hundred dogs to to repair

4:41

the ceiling and all make cold

4:43

january morning two and a half years ago

4:46

my own gets to the apartment complex around

4:48

eight am the walks up the stairs

4:51

to the second floor he's got his ladder

4:53

and paint brushes and tools and

4:55

then he tries a key the apartment

4:57

manager gave him that it doesn't

4:59

work so a knock on the

5:01

door and nasa maintenance

5:04

maintenance , one answers so

5:06

he knocks again i was just a matter

5:09

of seconds when

5:12

someone opened the door m

5:14

o firing sees a gun

5:17

go off the bullet hits

5:19

i'm in the chest he said he stumbled

5:21

backwards and false to one knee

5:24

and looks up at the guy marcia ma'am

5:26

i was just come into the repair signora

5:28

farming a huge his shot

5:31

me like this when leading

5:33

a lot what he thinks

5:35

i've got to get out of here a city

5:38

far stay here these guys

5:40

gonna shoot me again somehow

5:43

he manages to get to his truck and

5:45

drive to the maintenance office and

5:47

the staff call the police for me was

5:49

the guy their from a man's i

5:51

grabbed his him and

5:53

i simply don't let me go to saw was

5:56

feeling sore of breasts and

5:58

nasa please don't let me go then please

6:01

please lloyds his lead me

6:03

live

6:07

when byron wakes up out of a coma

6:09

seven days later he finds

6:12

out the bullet had missed his heart by a hair

6:15

he , finds out that the manager texted

6:17

him the wrong apartment number he

6:19

was supposed to be doing work on the

6:21

unit below the officer

6:24

show up at the hospital

6:26

maybe say well we're sorry for what

6:28

happened iran asks

6:31

the police officer is the shooter

6:33

in jail he said know

6:36

them , so why why said

6:38

the he was feeling was by

6:40

meats and she sobbing

6:42

sees rights to suit

6:45

me because he was because threat

6:48

the shooter told police that he was afraid

6:50

someone was during the break into his apart

6:53

so he opened the door and three years because

6:56

north carolina is carolina stand your ground stay

6:58

with stay cancelled after the shooter had

7:00

no duty to retreat as

7:02

a result no charges would be filed

7:06

i when couldn't believe what he was here the

7:09

was lucky to survive that he was out

7:11

of work for six months relied

7:13

on handouts from friends to pay his bills

7:15

and mortgage that he racked up more

7:17

than one hundred thousand dollars in medical bills

7:20

i got shot in ,

7:22

saw me in the only

7:24

thing you can say is some summary sorry

7:28

is not gonna pay my bills because they cut

7:30

my stomach and they took display mouth

7:32

and and all those things that they

7:34

didn't at the hospital i'm

7:36

and says the shooter could have made either decisions

7:39

rather than use his there

7:41

was no imminent threat no attack

7:43

in progress know gunners nothing

7:47

to suggest firing was firing any way

7:49

dangerous couldn't the shooter have

7:51

yelled the go away the just not

7:53

open the door we could have picked

7:55

up the phone call nine one one he could

7:57

call the police yes yes

8:04

going to comment on the case so

8:06

we're stephen jansen a long time

8:08

prosecutor for his thoughts

8:10

troubling to me because moon

8:13

the individual never enters the house

8:16

so i would be concerned

8:18

right there's stephen ,

8:20

a former director of the national district attorney's

8:23

association the largest organization

8:25

of prosecutors in the united states

8:28

states two thousand and seven he coauthored

8:30

one of the first studies on stand your ground

8:32

laws he says before

8:34

these laws were enacted these laws

8:36

minus spent a month looking into a case like

8:38

paris they might have asked

8:41

if they win wasn't breaking into the house

8:43

was the shooter then brilliant very

8:46

danger or bodily harm

8:48

you know this individual i would argue

8:51

reasonably good effect of the phone

8:53

call nine one one called the police

8:55

or to the scene

8:57

even says a prosecutor would have looked

8:59

at the time of day that the incident

9:01

happened during normal working hours not

9:04

in the middle of the night when had

9:06

also identified himself several

9:08

times as a maintenance worker

9:10

then he was also carrying to but

9:12

there is a very quick decision made

9:15

in he grabs his gun and

9:17

uses it and now is claiming self

9:19

defense you try to look at what would a reasonable

9:21

person have done

9:23

this is exactly the type of scenario stephen

9:25

worried would happen after stand your ground

9:28

laws were first past i heard

9:30

some concerns were these

9:32

laws really necessary or they could have

9:35

an adverse effect on

9:37

the criminal justice system has

9:39

real world was that it would make it much

9:41

easier to get away with murder i

9:43

take these statutes complicate

9:46

police investigations they have

9:48

a a huge impact on prosecutorial

9:51

discretion and whether or not

9:53

to charge to charge

9:56

the even two thousand and seven study

9:59

brought together these prosecutors academics

10:02

and public health experts he

10:04

predicted that stand your ground

10:06

laws would have a profound impact

10:08

on the justice system and make it much

10:10

harder to hold people accountable for

10:12

unjustified killed and

10:15

, the report also

10:17

predicted that florida's new stand your ground

10:19

law may allow people to use deadly

10:22

force in situations that might

10:24

otherwise be considered racial profiling

10:26

or vigilante as and

10:29

then five years after the report

10:31

was released one shooting prompted

10:34

a national conversation about stand

10:36

your ground laws now so the trade on martin

10:38

taste after the shooting the guy had his hands

10:40

in the air saying it dawns on the ground

10:43

or shop this guy in self defense more

10:57

than three hundred controversial

11:00

, and defenses invoking

11:02

stand your ground habits me

11:05

and with thing develop

11:06

the me a mod are we murder trial stratus

11:08

like michael and to other white men charged

11:10

with murdering are breach had claimed

11:12

self defense call witnessed

11:14

rumbled as he listened to the for it is

11:16

and then collapsed onto the floor

11:18

the court when they can also wisconsin today

11:21

and jury found him not guilty in all

11:23

five pounds including

11:24

the first stand your ground state

11:27

florida is also one of the places

11:29

where we know the most because so much

11:31

research has been done there

11:34

in the aftermath of travel martin's

11:36

killer the tampa bay times

11:38

looked at more than two hundred stand your ground

11:40

cases if found nearly

11:42

seventy percent of people who claim stand

11:45

your ground winfrey most

11:47

of those cases involve situations where

11:49

retreat was possible and

11:52

almost two thirds of people killed

11:54

we're on our

11:56

and over the years to have been half a dozen

11:58

major studies on stand your ground laws

12:01

i've , all of them and talk

12:03

to the researchers the

12:05

latest was released earlier this year

12:08

around the tenth anniversary of trade on

12:10

martin's death michelle degli

12:12

a sparse the at the university of oxford

12:14

is one of the co authors florida

12:16

had a big increase so you can see and and

12:19

twenty seven soon to eat or

12:21

new treaty the only

12:23

twenty five percent twenty

12:25

five percent more deaths after

12:28

stand your ground laws were enacted michelle

12:31

team found these kinds of be double

12:33

digit jumps mostly in the south

12:36

some states like pennsylvania it didn't

12:38

see increases in homicides after

12:40

an acting stand your ground but

12:42

there was no evidence that these laws

12:44

lead to lead decrease in homicide anywhere

12:48

in fact on average we

12:50

found that the announcement of

12:55

across the us

12:58

eight to ten percent more homicides

13:01

after states in acted stand your ground

13:03

decayed eight ten percent increase in

13:05

has finally been

13:08

and censor people

13:09

the shell and her colleagues at oxford

13:11

and the university of pennsylvania did

13:13

the math they estimate roughly

13:16

seven hundred more people die

13:18

in the us every year because of

13:20

stand your ground laws that's

13:22

more than the total annual homicides

13:24

in most european countries michelle

13:27

says at this point the research

13:29

done since these laws were adopted is

13:32

beginning to add up what

13:34

there's important is that not

13:36

just our study the now it's neat simulation

13:39

of the podium as a stand

13:41

, ground laws in data public

13:43

safety in diameter

13:46

you know you are enhancing

13:48

the of forcing encouraging the east

13:50

of deadly force why it wasn't

13:52

needed an increasing

13:54

needed an people dying by sars

13:57

many prosecutors and academics

14:00

like michelle stand your ground laws

14:02

were solution to a problem that didn't

14:04

exist self defense was have

14:06

always allow people to protect themselves

14:09

the use deadly force if they couldn't get

14:11

away now with

14:14

stand your ground

14:15

they don't even have to try

14:18

because it removes the duty to retreat

14:21

to retreat of takes away the owners of

14:23

the individual to remove themselves from the situation

14:25

that could be dangerous and

14:28

killing them believe a lie to

14:30

immediately use lethal force

14:36

when lawmakers speak about the need for stand

14:38

your ground the often talk about a stranger

14:41

with a gun or a nice attacking

14:43

you in your family but ,

14:46

looked at about one hundred and fifty stand

14:48

your ground cases going back a decade

14:50

across the country and in

14:52

reality many of the sir the

14:54

fences look nothing like that

14:57

for example is it reasonable

14:59

to kill someone because of a traffic officer

15:01

case and know sort of and filed

15:03

a pretty deadly a pair of road rage shoot

15:06

that the gators are still trying to put the pieces

15:08

together but they say it involves

15:10

you drivers who didn't know each

15:11

there for to kill your

15:13

on arms roommate if you get into

15:16

a fight because he refuses to leave

15:18

your roof and accused of shooting and killing his roommate

15:20

during a disagreement as or were fired

15:22

off or spent a night out of

15:24

jail

15:25

is it reasonable to kill an

15:27

unarmed man in a movie theater after

15:29

he throws popcorn a

15:31

not guilty and all charges curtis rees

15:33

acquitted of the murder of chad all sense

15:35

after shooting him inside a wesley chapel

15:37

the theater and what about killing

15:40

an unarmed man experiencing homelessness

15:42

and mental health issues if he approaches

15:45

you to ask for money

15:46

the homeless man was shot to death

15:48

at a busy downtown foreigner now

15:51

they're questions as to why

15:53

a grand jury has been filed any charges

15:56

against the person who fired that saito

15:58

shots

15:58

and

15:59

fundamentally is

16:02

it ever reasonable to kill another

16:04

person unless it's absolutely

16:06

necessary

16:19

course behind all of this is

16:21

race when , come back

16:23

will travel to ohio to examine

16:25

republican efforts to push through a

16:28

stand your ground law despite

16:30

widespread opposition from black

16:32

lawmakers in the state lawmakers

16:35

who argue on the floor of the statehouse

16:38

of black residents are already feared

16:40

and targets because of the color of their

16:42

skin

16:43

when i'm plants athena be nice

16:45

lord we , tell me you

16:48

know people scary is that snacks

16:50

on reveal

17:01

when you're scrolling through social media how can

17:03

you tell what's real misinformation

17:06

can be dangerous especially when

17:08

it's related to your health anything can

17:10

be posted online without being factor but

17:12

if you heard about the secret to permanent

17:14

weight loss would you give it a follow from

17:17

one zoe comes a new theories about wealth

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molnar

17:20

the current

17:21

you set up on apple pie this

17:24

amazon is it spotify or you

17:26

can listen early and athletes by to

17:28

any lonely plus in the wonder yep

17:32

what to tell you about a new podcast i think you'll

17:34

enjoy when the people decide

17:36

it has the stories of everyday people whose

17:39

used ballot measures to create political

17:41

change and form new coalition's spent

17:43

about three through to campaigns and voting rights

17:45

criminal justice reform and more i'm

17:47

a podcast at the people decide that

17:50

show or search when the people decide

17:52

wherever you the thing right now

17:57

from the center for investigative reporting n p

17:59

eggs this is reveal i'm

18:02

alison zero ,

18:04

more than three hundred and fifty

18:07

mass shootings across the country

18:09

so far this year according to

18:11

the gun violence or cause that's

18:13

an average of roughly two a day this

18:16

man made disasters such as done

18:18

in one community after the next

18:21

meeting chaos and destruction that's

18:24

what happened in dayton ohio back

18:26

into meaning

18:30

hang on one where addresses emergency

18:32

store and down guy or ancestry

18:34

and dayton ohio okay ,

18:37

more on their the results

18:39

are there's people for

18:42

the shooter

18:43

they'd forty one rounds into

18:45

a crowd nine people

18:47

were gunned down in less than thirty seconds

18:50

and another twenty seven were injured the

18:53

attack occurred just thirteen hours

18:55

after another mass shooting in el paso

18:57

texas and the back to back killings

18:59

once again renewed calls for gun

19:02

control legislation

19:04

the memorial in dayton ohio republican

19:06

gov mike dewine address mourners

19:09

as he spoke the crowd began shouting

19:11

over him to do something here

19:15

, very very easily about

19:23

everything that we can

19:31

today later the governor tried to

19:33

do something calling on ohio

19:35

law makers to come together to enact

19:37

modest common sense gun restrictions

19:40

reveals jonathan jones has been

19:42

looking into what ohio legislature

19:44

did next

19:48

who and a half months after that mass

19:50

shooting in dates lawmakers

19:52

introduced a new gun bill

19:54

but instead of gun restrictions

19:57

republican lawmakers robin hood

19:59

and candice

19:59

they're introduce an expansion

20:02

of gun rights a stand your

20:04

ground law removing the duty

20:06

to retreat

20:07

introduced this bill for very simple reasons

20:10

first for the safety of ohio citizens

20:13

secondly to provide protections for those

20:15

her lawfully exercising their second amendment

20:17

rights are sending them so

20:19

fifteen people including representative

20:21

killer spoke in support of the bill

20:24

more than one hundred and twenty witnesses

20:26

testified against it and the legislation

20:29

died in committee but this

20:31

wasn't the first time she'll be lawmakers

20:33

have proposed to stand your ground bill in ohio

20:39

republicans first introduced stand your ground

20:42

six years earlier in june twenty

20:44

third team right around the time george zimmerman

20:47

went on trial for killing trip on martin

20:49

the , spoke out against the

20:51

ohio proposal proposal

20:54

called it a kill it will bill and

20:56

it failed to pass the senate in

20:58

twenty in republican

21:00

lawmakers tried to more times to push

21:02

forward stand your ground laws your

21:05

past and then during

21:07

another failed attempt and twenty eighteen

21:10

a debate about the racial implications of

21:12

the law dot heated the chair recognizes

21:14

represent of house or permission

21:16

to speak to them

21:18

the messing around on the floor of the ohio

21:20

state house

21:21

representative stephanie house and then

21:24

democratic lawmaker from cleveland health

21:26

colleagues that stand your ground would put black

21:29

ohioans at risk

21:30

why do people of color continue to

21:32

say this

21:35

when you're princes when

21:37

you're being you're black

21:39

list

21:40

want to see you

21:43

you hear what i'm saying it's been in these days

21:45

more why people tell me

21:48

you know people scared are you

21:50

people have never interacted with

21:52

he said there's a reason why black law

21:54

makers like her are speaking out

21:57

because in america

21:58

like people are all too often

22:00

seen as a threat

22:01

this is a bad idea

22:04

the people that look like me

22:06

then representative house points out the

22:08

demographics of the bill's sponsors

22:10

and i always go back to the foundation

22:13

who are you represented she knows that

22:15

the of them come from districts that are overwhelmingly

22:18

white

22:18

representative lots of red house districts seventy

22:21

six

22:22

ninety six point two percent white one

22:24

, five percent african american some black

22:27

representative theory genesis

22:30

ninety four point not for said like can

22:35

the my constituents put a

22:37

thirty one lady please and this and this

22:39

it gets ugly director march toward the bill

22:41

and keep personalities out and not at all speaker

22:43

ryan smyth fangs is gavel and interrupts

22:46

asking representative house to keep

22:48

personalities out of it

22:50

not agree on a farm and excuse me and

22:52

clarification to the speakers

22:54

these are the sponsors we

22:57

were talking about constituencies and the impact

22:59

of this legislation on constituencies

23:01

then i'm asking you to keep the personalities

23:03

away

23:03

edit a year leases the identification

23:06

of again the sponsors and thirty

23:08

two cosponsor we don't have the constituencies

23:11

a d and the breakdown of all time when

23:13

for being represented and again i think

23:15

that is fair for bring that up in

23:17

legislation that will have death sports and

23:20

pats want people of color split a good

23:22

when you don't consider colors it's

23:24

easy to throw it away the such and we can talk

23:26

about the conversation that we had right

23:29

for in this bodies you talked about

23:31

that

23:31

really wasn't important know we'll have a problem

23:33

with right you ,

23:35

self a d and speakers smith

23:38

flames is gavel when cuts offer mike

23:40

mike he directs the sergeant at arms to physically

23:42

remove representative remove but

23:45

several lawmakers stand in front of her

23:47

making a human wall to protect her

23:49

to is the question is shall

23:51

the bill passes as

23:53

amended that household prepare and

23:56

proceed to vote with

23:59

representatives

23:59

house his microphone cut off

24:02

the speaker opens the vote for lady

24:04

will tiger seen refrain from being disruptive

24:07

please

24:12

the lady will refrain police

24:24

the all members now voted was

24:26

, four affirmative votes and twenty six

24:28

negative us them and

24:30

the bill is hereby past and

24:32

into the twenty eight teams stand your ground bill

24:35

eventually sales

24:37

after then governor john case sick threatened

24:39

to veto it but to representative

24:41

house a message from republicans

24:43

was clear pro gun law

24:45

makers were intent on passing on passing

24:48

your ground law even if doing

24:50

it meant silencing the voices

24:52

of black lawmakers

24:54

my my and other by oh no you're

24:56

not going to silence me

24:58

the other message she took from the incident was

25:00

that force like calling on the sergeant

25:02

at arms to remove her happened so

25:04

quickly the representative

25:07

house and other black lawmakers

25:09

this was exactly the kind of thing that

25:11

too often happens when black people

25:13

stand up to authority perhaps

25:18

hammer learn on

25:20

when it too feeble

25:22

and one person answered

25:24

i've been here anymore and you only have one person

25:26

to tell the story

25:28

that's what happens

25:31

literally

25:32

emotions run high

25:34

most people unfortunately

25:38

the that blackness is a

25:40

threat

25:43

and you can easily say i fear for my life

25:47

why was there such this

25:49

push you

25:52

get this law passed in ohio

25:55

the have again i do think they're a lot

25:57

of people who are very afraid

25:59

the brown and of america i

26:02

mean this is be for real like that is

26:04

that is a lot of white man's

26:06

fear in particular

26:15

studies show that self defense laws

26:17

are full of racial bias

26:19

research by the urban institute found

26:22

that white on black homicide or ten

26:24

times more likely to be rude just to

26:26

find them black on white the

26:29

gap is even larger in stand your

26:31

ground states all in

26:33

all in ohio republican

26:35

lawmakers tried to pass a stand your ground

26:37

law nine different types

26:40

the recognizes represented killer

26:42

the final attempt came just before midnight

26:45

on december seventeenth twenty twenty

26:47

thank you mister speaker moved to a man's am

26:50

one three three three feet

26:53

three when republican

26:55

kyle killer inserted the stand your ground

26:57

language into another unrelated

26:59

bill it was a legislative

27:02

maneuver that depending on how

27:04

you look at it was either a clever

27:06

strategy

27:07

an unconstitutional overreach

27:10

a mammoth three eight three does

27:12

one simple thing it extends

27:15

the right to law abiding citizens to defend

27:17

themselves anywhere they are legally

27:19

allowed to be as long as they are not the original

27:22

aggressor original aggressor situation

27:24

they are involved with

27:25

democrats including just crossman

27:28

stood up to oppose the mm this

27:30

is not the legislation that people will how call

27:32

for when they shot it for us to do something

27:35

after last year's shooting and dayton

27:38

several black female lawmakers also

27:40

spoke up against the last minute moved to

27:42

insert the language into the bill including

27:45

representative house

27:46

when it comes to this summit black

27:48

people are going to die disproportionately

27:51

the why people and if you feel

27:53

a certain type of by why buy me calling our black

27:55

people white people ask yourself why

27:58

happy

27:59

isn't that funny it a statue

28:03

don't even what we did not

28:05

black people even have informed

28:08

you don't make a decision

28:10

as the people did

28:11

nice

28:13

it like we'll hear the loaded

28:15

with madiba in already happening i'm good

28:20

why

28:22

that night the bill passed along party

28:24

lines with not a single democrat voting

28:26

in favor afterward the

28:28

naacp and several democratic

28:30

lawmakers sued to strike down the law

28:33

that lawsuit is pending

28:39

i am representative killer who inserted

28:42

the stand your ground language into the bill

28:44

what see would say to those who believe

28:46

it will hurt people of color the

28:48

fact that matter is we do still have racial issues

28:50

and this country's this build not trying to fix

28:53

that is not trying to make it worse it

28:55

is in fact just try to deal with the fact that

28:57

people are getting killed and we

28:59

need to do is everything we chance

29:01

to allow people to now we protect themselves

29:03

but also produce good laws that

29:05

allow everyone to exist in this country

29:07

without being targeted for any it

29:10

for for some reason especially for

29:12

race

29:13

this bill has been controversial

29:15

it's come up several times why not just propose

29:17

it has it's own all the so that you could have

29:19

and a robust debate before

29:21

doing it why not just have that final robust

29:23

debate the fact that matter is women senate

29:26

bill comes over the house we can do anything we want with

29:28

it and they can't control us

29:30

the amendment that i put into the bill

29:33

is , exact same language that

29:35

i was carrying and had multiple

29:37

hearings in the house so when

29:39

it comes to whether comes to had

29:42

hearings it definitely did

29:46

there was hope the governor to wine might

29:48

veto the bill based on his calls

29:50

for comprehensive gun safety measures

29:52

after the date ensued

29:55

instead when this bill

29:57

got to his desk he signed

29:59

it turns out years earlier

30:02

he had promised the gun lobby in writing

30:05

that effects and your ground

30:12

that's reveals jonathan jones

30:15

coming up we go to florida where

30:17

more than a decade after passing stand

30:19

your ground legislators expanded

30:22

it even further critics

30:24

, these new changes to the law make

30:27

it even easier to claim self defense

30:29

and get away with murder why should you

30:31

be immune when you to another person's

30:33

life as next on

30:35

reveal

30:45

hey i'm steven johnson the new host

30:47

of the ted interview podcast and each

30:49

episode i'm going deep with

30:51

the most fascinating thinkers on the planet

30:54

and grappling with the most provocative ideas

30:56

of our time i'll talk dark matter

30:58

with theoretical physicist john prescott

31:01

weinstein explore gaming and

31:03

sixteen with pulitzer prize winning novelist

31:05

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31:07

and putin with political activist

31:10

and says grandmaster garry kasparov

31:12

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31:14

listen

31:17

hello listener my name is

31:20

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31:22

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31:24

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31:27

and we depend on support from our listeners

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31:39

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31:41

thank you

31:46

from the center for investigative reporting m p

31:48

r x this is reveal i'm

31:51

alison

31:53

in june the supreme court issued

31:55

a major ruling on guns and

31:58

sixty three decision

31:59

the court said that people have broad

32:02

rights to carry firearms in public

32:04

and if more people carry guns it's

32:07

also more likely that more people

32:09

will use them

32:10

so today we're looking at stand your

32:12

ground laws that's what gun advocates

32:15

call them anyway critics call

32:17

them shoot first laws as in shoot

32:19

first ask questions later most

32:23

of the country now has some form of stand

32:25

your ground law on the books and

32:27

in some places lawmakers have

32:29

begun to expand them even further we

32:32

want to close out today show by looking back

32:34

to my home state florida it

32:36

was the first surpass stand your ground law

32:39

back in two thousand two thousand and

32:41

in recent years lawmakers have passed

32:43

brand new legislation that makes

32:45

it even harder to prosecute people who

32:47

kill and then cream self defense

32:51

reveals nadia hamdan trace the

32:53

roots of this new law back more than a decade

32:56

to one families florida vacation

33:03

it all started on a trip to the happiest

33:05

place on earth it's twenty eleven

33:08

ronald rhetoric in his family are visiting south

33:10

florida from their home state of indiana

33:12

it's the holidays and they just spent christmas

33:15

with relatives but , heading

33:17

back home they decided to see a little more of florida

33:20

so they had up to orlando orlando

33:22

on the freeway driving to you

33:24

guessed at disneyworld this

33:27

was at

33:27

swain divided highway which

33:30

at that point in time been the

33:32

holiday season was extremely

33:34

heavy with traffic

33:35

this is bronze former sister in law

33:38

dawn jealous thompson the

33:40

rhetoric family did not want to be interviewed

33:42

for this story but confirms everything

33:44

dawn is about to tell

33:48

ronnie driving in his car with his wise

33:50

adult son and teenage daughter the

33:53

on the highway when run sees a cadillac

33:55

escalate and

33:56

rear view mirror

33:58

he noted the as he the was barreling

33:59

on drivers serving in and out of

34:02

lanes the saw him kind of com me but he

34:04

next

34:04

interestingly veer into his line in and

34:06

push him off

34:08

that's when don says that ron honks

34:10

his horn to let the guy know hey

34:12

watch out their family dissing easy more

34:14

that miss okay he's on his way but

34:17

then the escalate appears again

34:19

and this time swerved into their lane

34:21

and stopped dead grand slams

34:23

his breaks

34:25

they are

34:26

and

34:27

the middle of a busy freeway cars

34:30

are flying by at least on the family

34:34

the man in the escalate is derek dunning

34:37

we reached out to him for comment but

34:39

he never got back to us but court

34:41

documents show after stopping

34:43

after stopping of the breath rex he gets out

34:45

of his car and walks towards them

34:48

my brother my sees mr done

34:50

in approach in their car and

34:52

he says to my sister and could you

34:54

please get the gun out of the

34:56

glove compartment there's something not right here

34:58

the hands begun to run he's

35:01

license to carry a concealed handgun

35:03

my brother locals it up in the

35:05

window and we have like please go

35:07

wally my family law never tix i

35:09

got other holsters

35:11

then it seemed to work with you done

35:13

he does see that guns and he returns

35:15

back to his car as

35:17

that point so it appears

35:19

to the family his back in the car up don

35:22

says that's and her sister and niece

35:24

run for safety to the side of the road

35:27

dodging cars on the busy highway but

35:29

ryan he's in his sixties disabled

35:32

he is unable to get out of the car so easily the

35:34

saw my nephew doesn't want to

35:36

abandon him her nephew is

35:39

wrong son

35:40

the arid rhetoric

35:42

he's the reason were telling the story

35:46

they're decides to take the gun get out of

35:48

the car and stand by the driver's side

35:50

door near his dad jared

35:52

is also license to carry to carry

35:54

handgun during sars not to suny

35:56

points ago towards the tires of mr

35:59

done his vehicle because really

36:01

he is worried about the car back in up the

36:03

ram in them everyone is on

36:05

the phone with nine one one by now transcripts

36:08

of those calls along with court documents

36:10

paint a picture of of ball little and

36:12

confusing situation it

36:15

is gun pointed at the escalate jared

36:17

tells dunning to move his truck or

36:19

she'll be shot then i mean

36:21

when transcript so jared was worried dunning

36:24

may have a gun that any

36:26

escalate dunning is on the phone with

36:28

nine one one two he tells the

36:30

operator that he's afraid to move

36:33

because he worries jared will shoot minutes

36:36

are taking by that's

36:38

when jared dad tells the dispatcher if

36:41

please don't get there soon they're going

36:43

to quote have a son

36:45

of a bitch is a difficult

36:47

same as here for sure undeniable

36:49

one call but when you're in the hear

36:51

the moment and you're not sure why

36:53

this guy was just seen your gun is not leaving

36:56

what's going your mind right now

36:59

police arrive on the scene and question everyone

37:02

the breath rick's dunning an eye witnesses

37:05

they also search stunning car

37:08

no

37:11

garrett arrested and charged

37:14

with aggravated assault with a deadly

37:16

weapon

37:17

charitable people is just a

37:19

very good young

37:20

man here it had no criminal

37:23

record now if convicted

37:25

he would face would face of three years

37:28

in prison

37:28

nathan very tough to swallow

37:31

don is one of the only lawyers in the family

37:33

that how she got involved in all this the

37:36

broderick's monitor help remind

37:39

me again that's what what type of lawyer

37:41

are you own a steep cliffs

37:46

i never , well the streets

37:48

together dawn and a breath rex

37:51

decide to cite we just saw

37:53

that under the circumstances how could anybody

37:55

reasonable believe this de silva didn't

37:58

have a right to defend themselves

37:59

he didn't know it then but this

38:02

would be a four year journey that

38:04

would take jared case all the way

38:06

to the full

38:06

the supreme court

38:08

then he would help redefine hundreds

38:10

of years of self defense law particularly

38:13

when it comes to the birds

38:15

of truth

38:18

don't start looking for criminal defense attorneys

38:20

who can represent jared

38:21

she finds eric friday a lawyer

38:24

with the gun rights group for to carry it

38:26

has close ties to the national rifle

38:28

association

38:30

the on held him about jared

38:32

he's eager to take the case runway attorney

38:34

phrase that we need to file for stand your ground

38:36

hearing so that they do

38:38

the schedule a pre trial hearing to try

38:40

and prove to a judge that jared was

38:42

in fear for his life so

38:44

he should have immunity from prosecution

38:47

under florida stand your ground law

38:49

the judge doesn't agree

38:51

there's even though derek dunning was threatening

38:53

when he got out of his escalate on that busy highway

38:56

he then got back inside

38:58

it's a court size of retreat

39:01

the the judge ruled that when jared pointed the gun

39:04

he wasn't being reasonable

39:05

there's a threat has no longer imminent you'd

39:09

have to stand trial the judge at that

39:11

point to the feel that during had carried

39:13

the burden and issued a

39:15

ruling against terrorists

39:17

for centuries

39:18

the burden of proof and self defense cases

39:21

has been on the person who claims

39:24

self defense like if

39:26

you shoot somebody you have to prove

39:28

that you are facing an imminent threat to your life

39:31

and that you acted reasonably

39:33

stand your ground laws through the

39:35

burden of proof into question

39:38

the me

39:39

the tourney thought so i think that

39:41

they had always been looking for a case

39:43

with the

39:43

factual scenario more or less

39:46

that would appeal to a

39:48

course grassroots case was the first

39:50

taste is actually raise the question

39:53

who has the burden of proof

39:55

that's true the tourney eric friday

39:58

he argues that the burden

39:59

proof never should have been on jared

40:02

instead he claims that for to stand

40:04

your ground law was meant to put the entire

40:07

burden on prosecutors

40:09

so if prosecutors really didn't

40:11

think jared was in fear for his life

40:13

sit there and i say that

40:22

the for the legislature passed stand your ground

40:24

in two thousand and five the law gave

40:26

descendants immunity from prosecution

40:30

but it didn't really explain how people

40:32

get

40:33

her records worked out a profit

40:35

defended by jared would go

40:37

to pre trial hearings to argue

40:39

that they deserve immunity but

40:42

eric friday says that if you have to

40:44

prove you deserve immunity not

40:47

really immunity

40:48

or is he sees it shared was the victim

40:51

the victims shouldn't be treated like suspects

40:54

they play the boy you're fighting behalf of the appellate

40:57

injured frederick i'd like was or five minutes for

40:59

a bottle

40:59

and he took this argument to the for this

41:02

the in court you're honest this case call

41:04

for or the statue call for a new rule a procedure

41:06

called for a new rule for the courts

41:08

to say away his

41:10

giveaway to handle these cases in

41:12

whether comports with the legislative intent which

41:15

was to grant additional protections

41:17

to citizens who were attacked

41:19

where they have attacked right to be

41:21

eric tells the court the same thing he told

41:23

me

41:24

you shouldn't have to prove you deserve immunity

41:27

usages get it

41:28

it quickly then florida supreme court

41:30

justice barbarian day pushes

41:32

back i see nothing in the

41:35

legislation that indicates

41:37

that is the standard

41:39

i see nothing in any

41:42

other state that

41:44

, ever gone that way and

41:46

so i'm trying to see where

41:49

other than sort of pulling and out of the

41:52

yes stratosphere we

41:54

would come up with that additional burden

41:57

the attorney representing the state christened

41:59

davenport are you just because

42:01

jared didn't get immunity

42:03

pre trial hearing

42:04

doesn't mean he's guilty

42:06

it just means he has to stand trial

42:08

mr breath rec is free to raise his arguments

42:11

in front of a jury just because he lost when

42:13

he had the burden of proof in front of a judge

42:15

doesn't mean he's gonna lose in front of a jury he still

42:17

has that right as didn't change anything is there

42:19

any state is just as buddy and they again

42:21

any state that has a

42:23

stand your ground law that has put

42:26

on in someplace a pre trial evidentiary

42:28

hearing where the state would have

42:30

to prove before a judge that

42:33

that the force was not justifiable beyond

42:35

justifiable reasonable doubt there is none this was that

42:37

was that unprecedented

42:44

in twenty fifteen the florida supreme

42:46

court ruled against jared

42:49

justices argue that the state stand your ground

42:51

law doesn't give him blanket immunity

42:54

that , and anyone else claiming

42:56

self defense has to prove

42:58

that they deserve it that they

43:00

really were in fear for their lives

43:09

four years after it and his family

43:11

were confronted on that highway his

43:14

case gets kicked back down the trial court

43:17

and he takes the please

43:18

one year probation

43:20

and will that was the end for jared the

43:23

said grown much bigger than one man's

43:25

case

43:29

while reporting this story i spoke to half

43:31

a dozen attorneys who told me that

43:33

would eric friday was proposing would

43:36

effectively tie the hands of prosecutor

43:38

i'm almost impossible

43:40

to

43:41

david lapan is the president and ceo

43:43

of the national association of prosecuting

43:46

attorneys it serves as an advocate

43:48

for process there's across the country he

43:51

says it's crucial for people who

43:53

claim stand your ground to first

43:55

proved to a court that they acted

43:57

in self defense otherwise

44:01

the plane

44:02

the even when that defense has not

44:04

presented evidence that

44:07

in fact it's true

44:09

then you could not cases are like jared

44:12

eric dining

44:13

the live

44:14

you can testify about what happened to him

44:17

what about the cases where the only other witness

44:20

was shot dead

44:21

only to defend that knows

44:24

what she or she was feeling at

44:26

the time that they took that life

44:29

this is fear is subjective

44:31

asking prosecutors to get

44:33

inside someone's head

44:35

is an extraordinary burden

44:37

one defense attorney i spoke to put it plainly

44:40

he said if he doesn't have to prove a client

44:42

acted in self defense he can

44:44

just lay back go to sleep you

44:46

wouldn't have to do anything unless a prosecutor

44:49

could somehow convince a judge that

44:52

wasn't self defense david

44:54

says justified or not every

44:57

homicide deserves an explanation

44:59

why should you be immune when

45:01

you take another person's life

45:05

but despite opposition

45:07

from prosecutors and despite

45:09

a florida supreme court ruling the

45:12

law would

45:12

james

45:14

because jared case had caught

45:16

the eye

45:17

a be an hour way

45:18

i noticed anyone at the an array it

45:21

caught the eye of marrying hammer

45:24

he was one of the and arrays less powerful lobbyists

45:27

and while she declined to be interviewed for this story

45:30

you've got quite a reputation here's

45:32

what eric friday had say

45:34

draw extremism

45:36

in defense of liberty is no vice in moderation

45:39

is no virtue ah

45:42

the try to my christmas ham are flaws that

45:44

personally

45:46

not only was she the first female president

45:48

of the an array but she's largely

45:50

credited with getting florida original

45:52

stand your ground law passed back in two

45:54

thousand and five marion him

45:56

or lives in florida she's got a pageboy

45:59

haircut there's brightly colored blazers

46:02

and stands less than five feet tall

46:04

the known to be a fierce and sometimes

46:06

ruthless advocate for gun rights the

46:08

get an idea

46:10

you need only talk to charles mcburney

46:12

either ago i had a good to excellent relationship

46:16

with the in our raid

46:17

child is a former florida house republican

46:21

and during his nearly ten years and the house

46:23

he says he had either and

46:24

a or a plus rating from

46:27

the an array the person

46:29

that i probably dealt with the

46:31

most was marion hammer

46:33

and i would describe that relationship is professional

46:36

but all that changed once

46:38

marion hammer decided to help push through

46:40

a bill at the start of the twenty sixteen

46:43

legislative session

46:44

the passed

46:46

defendants would no longer have to prove

46:48

they acted in self defense

46:51

it quickly died in committee

46:54

though during my experience

46:56

in the florida legislature once

46:59

the bill sales that's the

47:01

end of it

47:02

somehow though

47:03

the pop back up again very

47:06

end session

47:07

i don't recall that ever happening

47:10

it was weird

47:11

once the door was revived as the

47:13

head of the house judiciary committee it was charles

47:15

his decision whether to give it another hearing

47:18

he said the same concerns as some

47:21

supreme court justices

47:22

the was not aware of

47:24

that happening anywhere

47:27

in any state when you go into a

47:29

novel area of law

47:32

what are the consequences out there

47:34

how had been practicing law firm more than

47:36

four decades

47:38

then he worried shifting the burden of proof

47:40

this way

47:41

the make it harder to hold people accountable

47:44

the we'd have married him or know let's

47:47

the bill die again

47:49

was you unhappy

47:51

but this is charles as last term

47:54

they didn't think he had much to lose

47:56

while he says he wasn't alone in his concern

47:59

about this bill

47:59

he was in a unique position to speak

48:02

up because he didn't have to worry about being reelected

48:04

you can take those bullets her head

48:06

the proverbial bullets right you don't

48:08

wanna go on an enemy of the an array

48:10

while years to right and that's not you know i

48:13

will tell you that's not unusual

48:16

and that was kind of my thoughts is

48:18

that okay we'll all all make this

48:20

decision because

48:22

i know that there

48:25

are there are of members who

48:27

feel as i do that i

48:29

don't want to put them in that position

48:31

the time in the state legislature was coming

48:33

to an end charles started looking

48:35

to the next thing then he decided to

48:37

apply for judicial position and afford

48:40

a circuit court

48:41

it was one of the name sent to the governor

48:44

for consideration

48:46

that's when he learned just how unhappy

48:48

marion him or was about his decision

48:50

to kill the bill

48:51

there was i think

48:54

they call on alert from

48:56

the in our way

48:58

the alert went out to it's members

49:00

that ask them to email then gov

49:02

break from it with a subject

49:05

how much ernie is and set

49:07

to be a judge

49:09

the cat

49:11

the alert even goes on to call him arrogant

49:14

according to local news reports

49:16

thousands of emails poured into

49:19

the governors and

49:19

how declared and get the a point

49:22

how says he's not sure the governor would

49:24

have appointed him without those emails

49:27

the you sure they didn't help

49:29

marion

49:31

that her i , revenge

49:34

for lack of lack better term

49:35

because it felt like she was trying to make an example

49:38

of him

49:39

the show what happens when lawmakers go

49:41

against the an array then

49:44

we wrote in our bed in the florida times union

49:47

directly to marry in hammer and

49:49

he didn't pull any punches

49:51

he called the bill a pro criminal

49:53

bill

49:54

the end

49:56

let him read it for you it's the message

49:59

being set top legislators and elected

50:01

officials that you can be with

50:03

me on virtually everything but he

50:05

crossed me once even if the

50:07

issue doesn't involve a second amendment

50:10

i will take you out even

50:12

if you leave the legislature or that elected

50:14

office without a doubt that's the

50:16

message being said

50:19

and twenty seven soon as

50:21

governor rick scott signed into law

50:24

that self defense immunity been anyone

50:27

claiming self defense of florida

50:29

no longer has to prove it the

50:33

florida stand your ground law was already

50:35

now it's

50:38

, much bulletproof do

50:43

david le bon represents

50:45

prosecutors across the country and

50:47

he says nobody wants an innocent person

50:50

to go to prison but , as

50:52

a society agree set life

50:54

is sacred sacred if you kill you

50:57

even if it was to save yourself why

51:00

shouldn't you asked him

51:01

therefore and when you take life

51:03

we should know why you took that lies and

51:05

how you took that life

51:07

who knew a trip to disney world could

51:10

end up here

51:19

florida utah in south dakota

51:22

has similar laws expanding stand

51:24

your ground and many experts tell

51:26

us it's likely that more states

51:28

will follow the

51:30

, reveals nadia handle

51:33

nadia produces these episode along

51:35

with jonathan jones green

51:37

a game and bread myers editor the show with

51:39

additional editing from nina martin and merriam

51:41

select deco more downey provided

51:44

research and reporting for today show and

51:46

thanks to on the lcd as cortez and

51:48

laura telesur for production helped nicky

51:50

fracas or fact checker victoria baroness

51:52

kids are general counsel or production managers

51:55

amy the great mustafa original score

51:57

and sound design by the dynamic duo

51:59

job mr jim briggs and fernando

52:02

my man your router are ,

52:04

production team is the justice league

52:06

and this weekend includes catherine style martinez

52:09

and stephen restaurant or digital

52:11

producer sarah merch are ceos caves

52:13

are camp wallet sumi agra walls are editor

52:15

in chief are in term executive producers

52:17

are talking to the neatest and brett myers our

52:20

theme song is by colorado lighting

52:22

support for reveals provided by the riva david

52:24

logan foundation the john foundation and catherine

52:27

t macarthur foundation the jonathan logan

52:29

family foundation the ford foundation

52:31

the hazing simons the the helm

52:33

and foundation the democracy fund and

52:36

democracy in as much foundation reveal

52:38

is foundation co production of the center for investigative reporting

52:40

and investigative r x amount lesson

52:43

and remember there is always more

52:45

to the store oh oh