0:15

Pushkin. You

0:20

called it a fairy tale? Yeah, do

0:23

you have? Is there a

0:25

fairy tale that you were inspired by? Which

0:28

fairy tale is this?

0:29

I don't know if there's one. I

0:31

think it's so the opening, the opening

0:33

of the movie is and this will just tell you the tone.

0:36

There's a voice over throughout the movie, and

0:38

the opening shot is

0:40

you're pushing in on this kennel in the middle

0:43

of nowhere, and it's

0:45

out in the field, and it's like there once

0:48

was, you know, an animal named Bandit,

0:51

and the Bandit used to have had dreams

0:53

of blah blah blah, blah blah. And you're pushing in, pushing

0:55

in, pushing in, until you get to this pit bull sitting at

0:57

the center, and it's a thing of fighting

0:59

pipules. And he named himself

1:02

Bandit because and you see

1:04

a flash of a little boy that the

1:06

dog had seen from his kennel far far away, playing

1:08

with his puppy, named Bandit, and Bandit had dreams

1:10

of one day being that dog, and he

1:13

hoped that one day someone would give him a chance

1:15

and believe in him. And this dog trainer

1:17

comes, the fighting trainer and takes band

1:19

It out, and he's like come on, get out of here. And he's pushing,

1:22

dragging him along, and then he's like, but that's

1:24

many, many years ago, and Bandit suddenly

1:26

turns around and just fucking launches it as trainer

1:28

and kills the dude. And

1:32

at this point in Bandit's life, all Bandit ever

1:35

wanted was just revenge, you

1:37

know, like just bloody revenge for the life that he's

1:39

lived. I'm not remembering it verbat him. It was a long time

1:41

ago, but it's like and all he wanted

1:44

was just one shot, just to get paidback

1:46

and nothing more. And then you just push in on him

1:48

and he's just got blood down his neck.

1:58

Welcome to Development Hell, our

2:00

mini series about the movies that

2:02

Hollywood never made. This

2:05

episode is about a film

2:07

starring a dog, I Misunderstood

2:09

Dog, that the filmmaker Patty Jenkins

2:12

wanted to make. You've heard

2:14

of her, I'm sure her debut feature

2:16

was A Monster, an incredible portrait

2:19

of Eileen Warenose, a prostitute

2:21

who killed seven of her clients. Jenkins

2:24

wrote and directed Monster Charlie's

2:26

Throne, took the lead role and went on

2:28

to win the Best Actress Oscar for it.

2:31

Patty Jenkins next tour of force, directing

2:34

the twenty seventeen version of A Wonder

2:36

Woman. The movie was a hit with critics

2:38

and made more than one hundred million dollars in

2:41

its opening weekend. But somewhere

2:44

between those two hits, Patty

2:46

Jenkins had the idea of telling a

2:48

different kind of story.

2:55

So I became

2:57

aware of these dog prison

2:59

programs and started to really research

3:02

them and watch them and came up with this story,

3:05

which is kind of a fairy tale

3:07

that takes place in a dog program

3:10

where the lead characters are the dog. And

3:13

my ambition was to make a rated

3:15

R dog movie where

3:18

I wanted the dog to give a performance

3:20

so good they discussed whether to give it

3:22

an oscar. You know, that was my whole goal, But

3:26

there was a heavy there's a

3:28

serious tour de force role for a

3:30

man.

3:31

So far in development. Hell, we've only

3:34

told stories about men and the movies

3:36

they haven't made. This is our first

3:38

story involving a woman. It's not for

3:40

lack of trying. We made call after

3:43

call. We recorded a truly fantastic

3:45

episode with a prominent female screenwriter,

3:48

and then she asked us not to run it. With good

3:50

reason. Her movie never got

3:52

made because she ran into a male director

3:55

who didn't get the most beautiful and brilliant

3:57

part of her script, and she didn't

3:59

want to out him, not if she wanted to keep working

4:01

as a screenwriter. And she's right.

4:05

Women in Hollywood play by a very different set

4:07

of rules than men. They don't have the same

4:09

freedom, and more specifically, they're not

4:11

allowed to tell the same kinds of stories,

4:14

which was the brick wall that Patty Jenkins

4:17

ran into with her fairy tale about

4:19

a misunderstood pitbull named

4:21

Bandit.

4:26

This is a bad dog, right for sure.

4:28

You end up realizing as the story

4:31

goes by, these trainers beat the shit out of these

4:33

dogs, they abuse them, and so yeah, every

4:35

once in a while they're going to turn on and kill somebody. And

4:37

that's life, you know. I obviously, having

4:39

made Monster, have sympathy for why people

4:41

do the things that they do and interest

4:44

in why they do the things that they do. But

4:47

I think that's also what the core of the story is. By

4:49

the end of the movie, you've seen that bann It

4:51

is this wonderful dog if someone had just given

4:53

him a chance to prove what he's capable

4:55

of doing.

4:56

Patty, Patty hold on, yeahackup dog

4:59

prisons. So tell me the story, Tell me the

5:01

story, and tell me what a dog prison

5:03

is.

5:04

So there are these programs throughout the country

5:06

where they put dogs, unadoptable

5:10

dogs in with inmates and

5:12

they have those inmates rehabilitate the dogs.

5:14

And what's an incredible thing about it is

5:17

that the closer you get to studying

5:20

why and what's happening in these prison programs,

5:22

you realize and this is very much what

5:24

the movie was about, that you're

5:27

talking about a population of people that no one

5:29

gives a second chance to. And

5:31

this will come back around to because

5:33

it's, ironically, I think, related to why I could

5:35

not get the movie made. Everybody

5:38

wants to believe that these are bad guys, they're only

5:40

interested in having them suffer

5:42

and pay their dues. But the truth is that the closer

5:44

you get to prison, the more you realize that prisons

5:47

are mostly full of just poor

5:49

people. The prisons are full of guys

5:51

who have changed, never were that

5:53

bad, have been in since Juvie, and

5:56

there's no way out. So the incredible

5:58

thing about these dog programs is

6:01

that they you're

6:03

looking at a population of people that nobody

6:05

is interested in anything other than having

6:07

them pay their dues and then in these

6:09

animals that don't see them that

6:11

way and need them to be their hero,

6:14

and the men just come alive. So

6:17

you're using their time to

6:19

do this incredible thing and

6:22

it ends up being an absolutely

6:25

stunning program where the

6:28

inmates that end up being enrolled in this have

6:30

their acidivism rate drops to almost

6:32

zero. And that's what the movie

6:34

was called. I Am Superman. The guy

6:37

who gets paired with this dog names him Superman.

6:39

Yeah, yeah, So what is the what's

6:42

the can you can you be more specific about the emotional

6:44

journey of the actor in this.

6:47

The emotional journey of the actor is

6:49

is the last vestige of hope

6:52

that they can get out and that

6:54

they can have their life changed, and

6:57

it's crushed when the prison shuts down

6:59

the dog program and sends the dog

7:01

away to be put down and all hell

7:03

breaks loose. The journey of the

7:05

actor is very much the journey

7:08

that I've seen happen with any guys in prison, which

7:10

is like, oh, I got tricked into thinking that

7:12

I could get a ged and I could go and change

7:14

my life, But the truth is no, because even when

7:16

you get out, nobody's really going to hire

7:18

you. They're not going to give you a chance. They're

7:21

not going to ever believe that you're different. They're

7:23

only going to be interested in the tough guy that you were.

7:25

And so what are you gonna do. You're gonna become a criminal again,

7:27

because it's at least there's some integrity of being

7:29

a bad guy, you know, like there's no integrity

7:32

of being a loser. And so it's

7:34

that's his journey, and it ends

7:36

up going differently than that in the end,

7:38

but only by a miracle.

7:41

And so the movie was a fairy tale about a single

7:45

dog, and the dog's opening scene

7:47

of the movie, the dog kills its trainer. It's

7:49

like sitting on top of him with blood dripping down

7:51

its mouth. It's a fighting pit bull, and

7:54

he gets put in a shelter and is

7:57

supposed to be put down. But this dog gets

7:59

accidentally put in the program and

8:02

the inmate that gets paired with him

8:04

has just been brought back into

8:06

prison after being he had just

8:09

and he's been accused of another crime. But

8:13

because he had had, you

8:15

know, had been a good history

8:17

when he was in prison before, they let him

8:19

get into this program. But he hates dogs,

8:22

and so it's the story of this

8:24

this terrible pit bull supposedly

8:27

and this terrible man who are paired together,

8:29

who actually hate each other, who have to go through

8:32

this program together. And I can't

8:34

tell you the whole story because I still may make this

8:36

movie and I don't want everybody to know

8:38

everything. But the truth is it doesn't

8:41

go the way you think. It's not a touchy feeling.

8:43

I'm not interested in just straightforward

8:47

issue movies. So this is this is very

8:50

much a fairy tale, and the story goes

8:52

slightly differently than you think it would,

8:54

but but it's wonderful.

8:56

Can you give us one tiny little hint

8:58

of a little direction that it goes in.

9:00

Yeah, you would, one would assume,

9:02

and will assume that it is that the man

9:04

and the dog change each other. Yeah,

9:08

they do start to change each other. But

9:10

then the entire program is sabotaged

9:12

by the prison and by the administration

9:15

and by the corruption, which is exactly

9:17

what really is going on in these prison situations,

9:20

and things

9:22

turn out very very differently, like a bunch

9:24

of different people go a different way.

9:27

Who do we root for more by the end, the dog

9:29

or both?

9:32

I mean, you really get to know them both and

9:34

you understand. You end

9:37

up understanding how misunderstood

9:39

they are completely and how disinterested

9:41

in anybody is in

9:43

what's really their story, except they

9:45

figure out what's up with each other, but nobody

9:48

else cares or is open to it.

9:51

This is

9:52

this sort of on one

9:55

level, is super bleak.

9:57

It's not. It's magical, No,

9:59

it is. It is. The journey is bleak,

10:01

and it seems like it's going to be, but it ends up being

10:03

magical, and I love

10:05

the ending and it's wonderful, but really it's

10:08

it it. You'd like

10:10

to think that, you know, there are these great programs

10:12

and that they're changing people, and so of course

10:14

we're going to continue to do them, But not

10:17

only does that not happen, but then it

10:20

goes a very different way, and that goes

10:22

to the point of why I think no one ever made the

10:25

movie, because the

10:27

movie is all about the main character

10:30

is already changed. He's already a

10:32

changed guy, and

10:35

so it really ends up being about the corruption

10:37

that surrounds these guys, where even if you've changed

10:39

and you've become a better person, or you've never really

10:41

done anything, there's no way out because everybody's

10:43

only interested in seeing you as the tattoos

10:46

that you have and the history.

10:49

After the break, Patty and I talk more about

10:52

dogs and development. Hell, we're

11:04

back with Patty Jenkins. Are

11:06

you a dog person?

11:08

It's not a dog person, fanatical

11:10

dog person. I love dogs.

11:13

What kind of dog do you have?

11:14

I have a pit bull and I have a French bulldog.

11:17

Yeah, but I've had pit bulls my whole

11:19

life.

11:20

Did you grow up with dogs as a kid sort

11:23

of?

11:23

I mean I yes, I was always my mom didn't

11:25

want us to have a dog, but I was always

11:28

finding a way to get dogs, and so yeah,

11:30

I had different dogs. And also my grandparents

11:32

lived in Mississippi when I was young, and

11:35

so I would spend every summer

11:38

down there with them in Mississippi, and there

11:40

were like twenty thirty pitples there. And this is kind

11:42

of before pitbulls had this bad reputation.

11:45

And so I grew up around pit bulls and

11:48

I understand them and know

11:50

them and love them and think that they're so smart and interesting.

11:52

And so that's another

11:54

thing.

11:55

An incredibly steadfast

11:58

dog.

11:59

Unbelievably, And by the way,

12:01

it's not to say that there aren't some people breeding

12:04

hyper aggressive ones. I've always I've never been

12:06

the person who says, oh, they're just like any other dog. Dangerous

12:09

dogs, you need to know what you're

12:11

dealing with. If it does bite somebody,

12:14

it can do a lot of damage. They're not very

12:16

likely to bite somebody, and they are incredibly

12:19

smart and independent and emotional dogs,

12:21

one of the most intelligent breeds.

12:23

Yeah, so how do you first

12:25

of all, when you conceive of a movie

12:30

that hasn't both you know whose

12:32

principal characters are a person and an

12:34

animal? What challenges does

12:36

the Does the dog present huge

12:40

challenge?

12:40

I mean chalge? So this is

12:42

part of what I was so excited and interested

12:45

about. My goal was to get an

12:47

honest performance out of a pitbull. They are

12:49

incredibly emotive dogs and

12:52

so you can just read what's going on

12:54

on their face. So that got

12:56

me really interested in how do we do this, not

12:58

just having a trainer, you know, be over here.

13:01

Really what it was going to come down to was putting

13:03

the actor in the zelle with

13:05

the dog and actually trying to elicit

13:08

that real perform it's out of the dog with

13:10

almost no crew around. I was

13:12

always when we would talk about budget, I was saying,

13:15

I want to get the tiniest crew, but

13:18

I want to shoot a lot of days, and so it

13:20

was just going to be slow to

13:22

try to wait until you get that right

13:25

expression out of the dog and elicit

13:28

that actual performance from the dog.

13:30

And so what are you looking for from the dog

13:32

specifically?

13:33

It depends, So it's a whole you know,

13:35

it's a whole story. So you would need the

13:37

dog to dislike the guy

13:39

and be hostile. You'd need the dog

13:42

to become curious and interested but apprehensive,

13:45

and then the dog to you know, start

13:48

to fall in love with the guy. You need the dog

13:50

to all kinds of things. He has

13:52

to have a moment where he flips out

13:55

and so

13:57

so you would need everything. And that was going to be kind

13:59

of the sport of it.

14:00

But the whole time that you're trying to elicit a natural

14:02

performance from the dog, the dog

14:04

is aware that there's someone with a camera.

14:07

Maybe maybe not. So if you hid enough cameras

14:09

around and laughs, you

14:11

know, like the way that they do like reality

14:14

shows where their cameras mounted all over the

14:16

car and you know, or comedians in cars

14:18

with coffee or like whatever, you can

14:21

hide different cameras. I would shoot it differently

14:23

than all of my other films, because everything else I've

14:25

done, I've done on film, and you

14:28

know, it's a very big, big

14:30

production. This I would actually be open

14:32

to shooting digitally for this very reason, just

14:35

so that I could get cameras everywhere. The

14:37

addition, the other thing I wanted to do was

14:39

I wanted to shoot it in a real prison with

14:41

inmates as part part of the crew. There

14:44

are a couple of prisons that have like

14:47

two different They have a very busy prison,

14:49

but they also have like a closed down

14:52

section of the prison nearby, And so I

14:54

was working on that idea as well. Where

14:57

you know, just the same way you would run a dog

14:59

program, you run a very you know

15:01

the yard where the

15:04

kind of vetted inmates are. You have

15:06

them come and be trained to work as crew

15:08

on the film. The problem is

15:10

it, you know, it becomes a little tough if

15:12

there's lockdowns and things like that, and that happens

15:15

all the time. But this was all gonna you know, I was going

15:17

to try to figure out how much of it I could do that way.

15:19

And what about the actor.

15:22

The actor would have to be on board in

15:24

a in a different it would be a ride. It would be like

15:26

a journey. You and that actor would be on

15:28

a ride trying to figure out how to

15:30

do this film together and try

15:32

to figure out how. They'd have to love dogs. They'd

15:35

have to be interested in the endeavor and

15:39

it would be you know, interesting to find out how

15:41

it went. You'd have to be learning the dog as you

15:43

went.

15:44

But it's not just have to love dogs. It's

15:46

that you're also acting. So

15:48

in the first part of the relationship, you have to act

15:50

that you don't love dogs.

15:52

M So again,

15:54

that would go into camera work. When I've worked

15:56

with kids before, you sometimes have moments

15:59

where the actor is directing the

16:01

kid off camera. I've had one

16:03

where this act, this adult

16:05

actress was was Geene Tripplehorn

16:08

was acting out for the child

16:10

what the child should do. It was wonderful

16:12

because we couldn't get the kid to totally

16:15

do it. So, you know, there are many ways

16:17

to get you know, you might be having to do

16:19

something strange to the dog to get the dog to react

16:21

strangely, you're not doing your part.

16:24

Oh I see. Yeah, So before

16:26

we even get to the studio,

16:29

you've got to find an actor who's

16:33

willing to do something very unorthodox.

16:37

I wouldn't, which I don't think would be that hard

16:39

actually, because I think it's such a juicy

16:43

like, it's such a juicy performance

16:45

for an actor. It's such a good role. Had

16:48

been talking to Ryan Gosling about it at the time,

16:50

and this is way back, this is two thousand and

16:52

six of two thousand and five,

16:55

and then Ryan and I were going to sort of do

16:57

it alternately off and on, but then he kept

17:00

not being able to do it or wanting to do it because

17:02

he'd wanted to go make money or various different

17:04

things. When I would try to go to other actors

17:06

but Ryan Gosling, I would get the same

17:08

sort of thing from the guys. They wanted to be tough and

17:11

scary and stab somebody in whatever, and

17:13

and I thought that was such a telling

17:16

thing that that

17:18

that was a story people struggled to

17:21

embrace, a non redemption story

17:23

about prison. That was the issue I had

17:25

more of. Interestingly, when I tried

17:27

to make the film, even

17:30

the most liberal people in Hollywood

17:32

and the most issue we companies that make

17:34

these films would always say, yeah,

17:36

but can't he stab somebody at the beginning and

17:39

be about his redemption? And I would say no,

17:42

you're very much missing the point of the movie. The

17:44

point of the movie is that you're romanticizing

17:46

prison. If you think it's a bunch of super

17:48

dangerous people in there, it's not. I've walked

17:51

around the main line of Full sum

17:53

you know, of some of the most dangerous

17:55

prisons in the country, and I'm not fraid

17:57

at all because ninety

18:00

nine point nine percent of the guys are

18:02

just sad. It's just a sad sack situation.

18:05

It's very organized, it's just

18:07

a warehouse for human beings with no

18:10

way out. And that's what I

18:13

found so fascinating about people not wanting to make

18:15

it is that no one's interested in the story

18:17

about prison not being just

18:20

you know.

18:21

Yeah, so it's it's a what's

18:23

fast saying about the script is you

18:26

begin I mean, the very thing that makes

18:28

it hard for the studio

18:30

or an actor is what makes it so intriguing

18:33

for an audience, because you're messing

18:35

with our expectation about an

18:37

animal movie. We've seen

18:39

animal movies and we know how they work.

18:41

Right.

18:42

That's why I think it's great is because the

18:44

truth is a lot of people also said to me,

18:46

you can't make a rat at oar dog movie. I was like,

18:48

but everybody said you couldn't make a dog movie at

18:50

all, and every time they make dog movies they're

18:52

huge. We love dogs, and so what

18:55

are you taking. It's not like only kids like dog

18:57

movies. Adults like dog movies. So yeah, you can

18:59

definitely make a rat Atar dog movie. So but

19:02

it's just listen. I make myself

19:04

feel better by saying you can't. Both want to do things

19:06

that nobody's ever seen before, and

19:08

then before frustrated that nobody understands why

19:11

it's going to work or why you believe

19:13

in it. But this plagues me in my whole

19:15

career. I've never done anything anybody

19:17

thought I was going to succeed. Everybody thinks everything

19:20

I do is like a wonder woman that's going to be terrible.

19:22

Oh monster, that's going to be terrible. Oh the

19:24

killing is going to be a bad TV whatever.

19:27

When you finished the screenplay and

19:30

you said, what did you say to yourself? Did you

19:32

think this is a slam dunk? Someone's

19:34

going to help me make this?

19:37

No, but I knew

19:40

how how very happy

19:42

I was with it, and the people who read it had

19:44

the same reaction. You know, like people

19:47

would say you know that it was. I've had still people

19:49

some people write me and say it's still one of their

19:51

favorite screenplays they've ever read. But

19:54

but I knew it was going to be a little

19:56

bit hard, but I didn't And

19:59

I still don't understand why

20:01

no one would roll the dice on my very

20:04

low budget second film, other

20:06

than to speculate that the sexism

20:08

that I was very very disinterested in throughout

20:11

my career, but see much more clearly now

20:14

wad into the fact that you know,

20:16

if a guy makes an

20:18

Oscar winning first film, then

20:21

then you roll the dice

20:23

on their second thing. Whereas throughout my career people

20:25

have not been interested in or not had

20:27

confidence in what I want to do. They've

20:30

embraced me and wanted to hire me for

20:32

what they want to do. But still

20:34

to this day, like when I have my

20:37

what the stories I want to tell are, people are like, ah,

20:39

we've never seen that before, And I'm like, yeah, but you've never

20:41

seen monster before either, Like you

20:43

want to just give it a shot. So so, looking

20:46

back, it took me all the way until now to

20:48

be like, wait, how did nobody just say, yeah,

20:51

we'll give her five million dollars to make her second

20:53

movie. Different thoughts of.

20:54

This is super interesting and something I've been thinking

20:56

about a lot recently, which is that

21:00

you're talking about sexism here. Sexism

21:03

discrimination of any kind takes all kinds

21:05

of different forms. Yeah, And in this

21:07

case, what we're talking thing about is someone

21:10

is perfectly capable of saying, you made

21:12

a brilliant movie. So

21:14

the sexism doesn't

21:17

prevent them from seeing the genius of Monster.

21:19

It prevents them from seeing that you could

21:21

do it again. In other words, the way they

21:23

make sense a monster is, oh, it's a one off.

21:26

Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's

21:28

that, of course, it's not anybody's

21:31

fault that the industry

21:33

is based on looking backwards. So

21:35

if it's something this is what I think

21:37

is the real gender issue, and by the way,

21:40

not just gender issue. Diverse stories

21:42

issue in Hollywood is you

21:45

can want to invite as many people

21:47

behind camera and into these positions

21:49

as possible, but as long as you're still basing

21:51

what can and cannot succeed on the

21:53

past, you're basing it on a blueprint

21:56

of a very specific voice. And

21:58

so I think that when

22:01

I want to tell a different maybe a guy wouldn't

22:03

think of that story that I'm coming up with and maybe

22:05

the way the emotions work are

22:08

slightly different. Whatever, it

22:10

is the combination of the fact

22:12

that they haven't seen it before, and also they don't

22:14

like to think of women as auteurs or artists

22:17

or take it as serious, Like there's a there's

22:19

a romantic desire to look at guys

22:22

who do like crazy art things

22:24

and be like, oh my god, they're a genius. Much

22:27

less so with a woman, you know. And so I think

22:29

it's like the combination of those things

22:32

that make it tough.

22:34

So what exactly you said

22:36

a little bit? But I'm curious, So you take this script

22:39

out? You want five million dollars,

22:42

which, just for those of you listening in

22:44

Hollywood terms, not a lot of money at

22:46

all.

22:47

No, I mean, everybody thought that Monster costs

22:49

more than that, like they they there was a

22:51

there was a big lawsuit about it, and one of the sides

22:54

tried to say that it costs eleven million dollars, So that's

22:56

what they thought Monster costs. It actually costs one

22:58

point five But it's very that was

23:00

as little money as a movie can be. Is five

23:02

million? Really?

23:03

And what do you so? What what exactly

23:05

are you hearing? You're hearing a people want

23:08

they want. First of all, they get that they want a different

23:11

perspective on the prisoner.

23:13

You've said that they feel more

23:15

comfortable where they have a very clear redemptive

23:18

narrative when it comes to the to

23:20

the past. But what else, keep

23:23

going? What else? What else is in

23:25

their area?

23:25

You know, I can only say that it

23:27

was always like no, It's like

23:30

even these people saying like it's great, we love the script,

23:32

but it's not for us. There's always a million different

23:34

reasons. It's only as the years have

23:36

gone by, and my husband's always pointing it out

23:38

too, that we've had this

23:41

so many things that I led that or

23:43

my idea like I wanted to do an MMA show

23:45

called the Fight about People in the MMA

23:48

world. No, no, we don't.

23:50

It doesn't make sense. Then sure enough that goes

23:52

on and becomes huge. It's like I when

23:54

I go and pitch things that I want to do

23:57

and what my ideas are, so often

24:00

it's been met with

24:02

with like no, but we'd love you

24:04

to do this hooker with a heart of gold script or

24:06

this you know other thing. And I'm

24:09

so grateful to have been embraced to do

24:11

other people's things, but there is something

24:13

about it, and so yeah,

24:15

it's always something different. I don't think that they're

24:18

ever even aware of it, but I

24:20

do think that there's something about

24:23

confidence and excitement in

24:26

in

24:28

in women's artistry that is

24:30

slightly less, you

24:34

know, they're they're less confident in.

24:36

That's my well, that's my that's my point. There's

24:38

a a much more

24:41

constricted view

24:44

of of your talent. It's like you're this

24:47

desire to see to if

24:49

you can explain away a big success

24:51

by saying it was like a

24:54

like a a, it was an anomaly.

24:56

And by the way, it's always miss I feel

24:59

it's always misunderstood as well. I remember

25:01

people saying to me when I made

25:03

Monster. The one studio executive

25:06

actually said to me she came

25:08

into the editing and she actually watched a

25:11

part of it, and she goes, sweetheart,

25:13

no one wants to see a film like this. Oh,

25:17

no, one wants to see a movie like this. And

25:20

she wrote me an email saying like, oh, you're

25:22

a great kid. I know you're gonna make it one

25:24

day. I'm just really too bad.

25:26

You know.

25:26

And this is before, of course the movie comes out and ends

25:28

up, you know, succeeding and making eighty

25:31

something million dollars by the way, and

25:34

then I would hear everybody saying like, oh,

25:36

do you have any more female serial killer things?

25:39

And you're like, that's the take home lesson. The take

25:41

home lesson is that they want female serial killers.

25:44

And the same thing I felt with Wonder Woman. I

25:46

felt like Wonder Woman was there

25:49

was just so much emphasis on gender

25:51

where it was like, Oh, everybody wants to

25:53

see a woman directing a woman's story.

25:55

I'm like, is that it It's not because of the movie.

25:58

It's not the hero's journey, it's not you know.

26:00

It's like and then there are a hundred women

26:02

get women action things

26:04

made on the It's like it's always it's

26:06

the wrong lesson. But

26:09

but I think in the

26:11

there's so much focus on the woman part of it

26:13

versus being like, Oh, it's a good film

26:16

and it's an unorthodox film, but they

26:18

pulled it off. Instead, it's just like, oh, female serial

26:20

killers, that's it, That's what everybody wanted.

26:23

At what point do you think it

26:25

would change, Like, give me a

26:28

hypothetical, what would have to happen in

26:30

your career for people to say you want to

26:32

do it. Given your track record, let's

26:34

go for it.

26:36

I mean, honestly, I

26:38

don't know too many of the women I know

26:40

who have had major successes

26:43

are also we all behind closed doors

26:45

whisper about how it sort of doesn't.

26:48

I think the world is really really long way away

26:50

from that. It's not going to happen in my lifetime.

26:52

I think it's you know, I may find my own

26:54

financing and have my own people and get my own

26:56

movies made. But I

26:59

think that the world is still genuinely

27:02

run way behind closed doors by

27:07

the same people who have a

27:09

desire for the interests that they have,

27:12

and no matter who they're putting on the lower

27:14

levels, the mandate is still bumping

27:17

up to that level. And the truth is like, we're

27:19

real far from really

27:22

diverse voices being understood

27:24

and embraced. And it's not about

27:27

money either. So that's the unfortunate thing.

27:32

I'll be right back with more from Patty

27:34

Jenkins. While

27:53

Patty was telling me about her dog prison

27:55

fairy tale, I kept thinking about

27:57

what the story shares with Monster, how

27:59

upbringing and events can conspire to

28:02

wound people or dogs and

28:04

shape what we expect from them. Monster

28:07

and I am Superman both stories

28:09

that ask us to look for nuance in

28:12

some very dark places. Jenkins,

28:14

I was thinking, seems compelled by

28:17

these kinds of dark places, So

28:19

I asked her about it. Where

28:22

where does this come from?

28:23

In you? So

28:26

it's funny because I think we both have very

28:29

backgrounds of a

28:31

lot of exposure and travel, and I

28:33

think that that's I. You know, when I was little, we

28:36

moved to Vietna, to Thailand and during

28:38

the Vietnam War, and then we moved.

28:40

To You're an Air Force brat.

28:42

Are Air Force brat? Yeah, And

28:44

I think I grew up consciously

28:47

or unconsciously in the shadow of the Vietnam

28:49

War in Thailand, you know,

28:51

with my father's people dying

28:54

right and left, and the plant, you know, everything

28:56

that's really going on. So I think I was I

28:59

was born into the

29:03

around the darkness

29:05

in a familiar way. And then my

29:07

own father passed away in a plane crash, and you

29:10

know, all these things, and I lived all

29:12

over the place. So then I've

29:14

always never quite been one

29:16

type of person. I'm not like from somewhere

29:19

and like of a type, and so

29:21

I've always been curious in all types of people

29:24

and what's going on with you, and I'm

29:26

not daunted by the darkness, and

29:28

as a result, I ended up making friends

29:30

with all kinds of people my whole life. Like I've

29:32

been friends with definitely

29:35

people who have done some terrible things and ended up

29:37

in prison. And as much as I've been

29:39

friends with, you know, upper

29:41

class socialites or whatever, I've

29:43

known all kinds of people. But I

29:46

think that the people who end

29:48

up living some of the most dangerous lives

29:51

have I have a real soft spot for

29:53

because I've watched them

29:56

turn into those people and seen

29:58

how how misunderstood

30:00

they are and how

30:03

easy it would be to happen

30:05

to anybody should they were. They the

30:07

ones that went through that journey. So it's

30:09

just it's not my only as you can

30:11

see, like wonder Woman is also my interest,

30:14

you know, like I have Arrested development

30:16

is also my interest. I have lots and lots of

30:18

interests. I think the reason I like such

30:21

diverse work myself is because

30:24

because of what I just said, I'm not one

30:26

type of person. I've had to learn how to live

30:28

in different circumstances at different times.

30:31

But this issue,

30:33

these issues definitely are near and dear

30:35

to my heart. And also I think the most

30:37

misunderstood because people have so little

30:39

access to understanding

30:42

these stories.

30:44

How old were you when your dad died?

30:46

Seven?

30:47

Oh? Wow? I

30:50

always think about you know. In one

30:52

of my books, I had a whole section on what

30:55

the I think does

30:58

all this work on what happens to people when

31:00

they lose a parent

31:02

at a young age. And it's

31:04

this incredible study

31:06

that was done in England of extraordinarily

31:09

high percentage of high

31:12

achieving people lost a parent in youth.

31:16

And wow. The argument is that it

31:18

has one of two effects. You

31:21

know, it's like, you know, it's a Nietzschean thing. It either

31:23

crushes you or it makes

31:25

you stronger. You've

31:27

gone through just about the most

31:30

horrendous thing that can happen to a child, and

31:33

if you can emerge from the other side of that,

31:35

you're kind of toughened

31:39

in some way. I'm just I'm just using by

31:41

how drawn you are to investigating

31:46

this kind of darkness and finding

31:48

some some value

31:51

in it. Mm hmm. I

31:53

think that that's or some understanding.

31:54

Well said, that's well said understanding.

31:57

I think it was. It's interesting

31:59

to look back on this and how first

32:02

of all, it was the definitive event

32:04

in my life was my father dying. It was had

32:06

a huge, huge on

32:09

everything after, particularly in my youth. I

32:12

think it was funny and watching Anatomy

32:14

of a Fall this last year, what I thought

32:16

was so interesting that and illuminating

32:19

to me was how condescending everyone is

32:21

to the child about their understanding of what's going

32:23

on. And that

32:26

really rang true to me, where

32:28

I think that a lot of people,

32:31

even at our age, don't necessarily

32:33

know how bad bad can be, Like they

32:35

just don't know they haven't been close to it,

32:37

to the worst possible thing that could

32:39

ever happen to you happening. And

32:43

when it happens to you as a child, you're obsessed

32:45

with your parents at seven years old, you are in love

32:48

with them. And my father was like such a heroic

32:50

figure, like taking off on his motorcycle every

32:52

day and then flying off in his F four. You know,

32:54

it's like he was like a superhero in my life.

32:57

So to have that happen

32:59

and then tell me you'll never see

33:02

him again, like it was such exquisite

33:06

revealing of how bad the

33:08

world can be. And now

33:10

when I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah, people

33:13

are saying to you, like, oh, every cloud has a silver

33:15

lining and all these things, and you're like, I want

33:17

to die, Like you're done, it's your suicidal,

33:19

really, your your interest in this place

33:21

is over. And I only now realize

33:24

that looking back, I'm like, oh, all

33:26

of these words, and how I was probably

33:28

being viewed as a seven year old is she'll

33:31

forget him, she'll get over him, she'll and you're

33:33

like, dude, I

33:35

can't. I don't want to be here where

33:38

that can happen at any moment. I don't trust any

33:40

of this now, And

33:42

so I think that it's

33:45

it's a very interesting thing that you

33:47

do have to kind of toughen yourself and learn

33:50

how to exist in

33:52

that world where you know that that can. And

33:54

I still really struggle with it. I really struggle

33:56

with it as it relates to my child, where I'm

33:58

like it with the

34:01

knowing how bad bad can be, like

34:04

knowing that we all feel like it's not going

34:06

to be us and it can't really happen, but it really could,

34:08

you know, and it happen at any moment, and there's nothing you

34:10

can do about it, you know. Interestingly,

34:13

I don't think I would be the director I am if

34:15

my father hadn't died and then I think monster

34:18

I made literally directly about the death of my father.

34:20

It was about like, oh, okay, cool, everything works

34:22

out, everything happens, Like the voiceover in

34:24

that movie is saying, everything, you know, it's all

34:26

these myths that she's heard throughout her youth.

34:29

If you just you know, if you just love and believe

34:31

in yourself, anything can happen. Nope,

34:33

not for Eileen Warnis, you know. So

34:35

that it was a direct

34:39

a chance for me to express

34:41

how dark the world can be that people might

34:43

not realize. And I think the driven

34:45

part, what's interesting, don't I'd

34:48

have to think about what I think it is that makes you driven.

34:50

For me, I was. I was passionate

34:53

to take control of the narrative. And my original

34:55

reason for wanting to be a filmmaker was that I thought

34:57

that the stories were always going to be terrible in

35:00

real life. So I was like, so, I want to tell my

35:02

story. I want to be the one who controls

35:04

the story, so at least I can live a

35:06

good outcome there, you

35:08

know. And I turned out to be pleasantly wrong

35:11

that, you know. I've lived a wonderful knock on wood

35:14

life in so many ways. But

35:17

yeah, I think it was like it made me very, very driven.

35:21

So now you're now

35:24

you want to take uh

35:27

this story back out and try and maybe.

35:30

I haven't decided. I haven't decided.

35:32

Tell me how you would knowing

35:35

what you know. By the

35:37

way, what you just said is incredibly

35:41

Uh, it's sort

35:43

of it's it. It's it's

35:46

moved. I mean, it's really moved. I mean it's incredibly

35:48

kind of moving. And

35:52

and honest, you why

35:55

you do what you do. What's

35:58

what's interesting is that

36:00

what is for most of us. You

36:03

know, I've had a when

36:05

I was growing up as a kid, I

36:08

you know, thought all the time about what it would mean if

36:11

I lost one of my parents. But it

36:13

was an abstract thought. For

36:16

you, it's real. That's

36:18

the difference. So I can't As

36:21

a kid, when I thought about that, it

36:23

wasn't something I could put into words. It wasn't

36:26

something I could make real to anyone else. It was

36:28

just a kind of It's the kind of weird

36:30

kind of fantasy you have, dark fantasy you have

36:32

at three in the morning, you're like, oh my god, what would happen

36:34

if but you actually,

36:36

by virtue of gone going through it, you

36:39

knew what it.

36:41

Felt like mm hmm, but

36:44

yeah, because after my father died, then my sister

36:46

had a like the most beautiful

36:49

friend, runaway boy who came and

36:51

lived with us, and I was like so in

36:53

love with him. He was like three years older than us, Paul Penzini.

36:55

He was like beautiful and you know, and

36:59

he'd run away and was living in our house. And then

37:01

he had to go visit a cousin and he got shot in

37:03

the head and killed. And so I was between

37:05

those two things. I was like, this place

37:08

sucks, I you

37:10

know. Was it made me very

37:12

romantic though, like you interestingly

37:16

that kind of tragedy I think, particularly for the

37:18

opposite sex parent and then the opposite

37:20

sex older brother figure. It made

37:23

me so romantic about everything,

37:25

but about like love and longing and

37:27

loss. I

37:30

think it's like

37:32

I take for granted my familiarity

37:35

with the darkness, but of course the romance

37:38

of the stories I want to tell are very much

37:40

born from that, And so I

37:44

think I sort of thought I was this much

37:46

darker, rebellious, the

37:49

type of person that makes monster in

37:51

my youth, and now I realize

37:53

I'm not that person. I'm also the person that makes

37:55

wonder woman I'm all kinds of you know,

37:57

like I've grown up. I'm not just that person.

38:00

But so I think that makes me look back and say,

38:02

yeah, why do I have that much darkness?

38:04

Oh that's interesting, let's look back. You you really

38:06

don't you just you just go forward for

38:08

a long long time before you say, like, how

38:10

do I explain to people that I made Monster and

38:13

I made wonder Woman?

38:14

You know? So,

38:18

if you were to take this movie back out,

38:21

knowing what you know both about your

38:25

the first round of attempts

38:27

with it and about yourself, how

38:29

would you pitch it differently?

38:33

I don't think I would pitch it. First of all, I

38:35

don't think I would. I think I would try to stack

38:38

it up with my own financing and control

38:41

because I think I made I've

38:43

made my peace with the fact that it

38:48

might not be the easiest thing to trust,

38:50

and so you kind of need

38:52

to be left alone to make it. I maybe

38:55

would take it to one or two places. But I don't think I

38:57

would go out, you know, with my hands out hoping

38:59

that Hollywood understands this film. Now

39:02

I'm playing the game in a more

39:04

sophisticated way now, with age and with

39:06

experience, where you're sort of like, oh, I see what this

39:09

is and I see how it could go wrong, and

39:11

just to give this film a winning hand, I'd

39:14

need the space to actually

39:16

make it what it could be, not be fielding a bunch of

39:19

notes from a bunch of people who are afraid

39:21

who needed to you know who, that

39:24

they've never seen a film like this before. So I

39:26

think, yeah, it's more just

39:28

about how to set yourself up to succeed.

39:31

I want to see this movie. Were

39:33

you were you? Maybe well were you?

39:35

Probly you'll If I

39:37

don't make it, I'll come back and tell you the rest of the story.

39:40

This has been fantastic. This

39:49

episode was produced by Nina Bird Lawrence

39:51

with Tali Emlin and ben A Dapph Haffrey.

39:54

Editing by Sarah Nicks, original scoring

39:56

by Luis Quira, Engineering by Echo Mountain.

39:59

Our executive producer is Jacob

40:01

Smith. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.