1:59

who is a good friend of mine. I've

2:03

known him for many years and we used to work together

2:05

in various capacities. He

2:07

teaches Buddhist meditation, mindfulness,

2:11

and communication internationally and holds

2:13

a degree in comparative religion from Columbia

2:15

University and is a certified

2:17

trainer of nonviolent communication and

2:19

a somatic experiencing practitioner

2:22

for healing of trauma. Orin's

2:25

written a few different books. One

2:27

of his best-known titles is Say What You

2:30

Mean, A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication,

2:32

which we talked about a couple years back on

2:34

the show. And then he has a new

2:37

book out called Your Heart Was Made for

2:39

This Contemplative Practices to Meet

2:41

a World in Crisis with Courage, Integrity,

2:43

and Love, which I think is an extremely

2:46

relevant title and

2:48

concept for the world that we're living in today.

2:51

And that's going to be the subject of our conversation

2:53

in this episode. More specifically,

2:56

we're going to talk about his

2:59

ecumenical approach to cultivating healthy

3:01

mental and emotional qualities and

3:03

connections to social change, including

3:06

the health benefits of reducing stress and anxiety,

3:08

engaging with burnout, and an overall

3:11

orientation to health and well-being

3:13

as a tangible and realistic goal in

3:16

this pretty hectic world that

3:18

we're living in today. So I hope you enjoy

3:20

the conversation as much as I did. Let's dive

3:22

in. Orin, my friend,

3:24

been a long time. It's so good to

3:26

see you.

3:27

You too, Chris. Thanks for having me here.

3:29

So

3:30

I was really excited to see your latest book

3:32

come out because we're living in

3:34

a time where, you know, most

3:36

of the people I know feel like

3:39

proverbial frogs in the boiling

3:42

water, where it just seems like

3:44

everything is intensifying. You

3:47

know, the polarization that we see in social media,

3:50

the rancor and bitterness of

3:52

dialogue around all kinds of topics,

3:55

the global ecological

3:58

economic crises that we're facing,

4:00

inflation, just

4:03

people looking at their bill when they

4:06

leave the grocery store and disbelief

4:08

at how much it costs just to feed

4:10

your family. I imagine

4:13

that at various times in

4:15

history, or for students of history, we know

4:17

this is true, that people often

4:20

do remark that their own

4:22

time is the craziest time and things are changing

4:25

too fast. I do

4:27

feel like there's something that's

4:29

uniquely true about that in our time,

4:32

like just the converging challenges

4:35

of the economic and ecological

4:37

crisis, as I just mentioned, AI, social

4:42

media, technology. It's

4:45

difficult to be a human being in many ways in 2023.

4:50

Well said. Tell me

4:52

a little bit about the genesis of this book

4:55

and what inspired you

4:57

to write it.

4:58

Yeah, yeah. Well, in

5:00

part, everything you just said.

5:03

Yeah, I feel like it's really hard to

5:05

be alive and conscious

5:08

on the planet today. There's

5:12

a saying for a reason, ignorance is bliss. It's

5:14

a lot easier to go through the world in some

5:16

ways with our eyes closed and our heart shut.

5:19

So if we are awake and if we're

5:22

feeling, it's challenging, it's painful,

5:24

it's scary. I think

5:26

we all need resources. We all need not

5:29

just the external resources, but the internal

5:31

resources. There's

5:34

two reasons I wrote the

5:36

book. I started writing it during 2020

5:38

when that really

5:41

overwhelming series of events unfolded, and

5:45

then George Floyd's

5:47

murder and the immense

5:50

cultural and spiritual upheaval that

5:52

brought, and then the wildfires

5:55

out here in the West, which kind of brought the ecological

5:57

crisis to the fore in a new way for millions

5:59

of people.

6:01

And it felt like one contribution

6:03

I could make as a meditation

6:05

teacher and a communication

6:07

trainer was to write about

6:10

inner strength and the inner

6:12

resources that we have that we can

6:14

tap and cultivate. The

6:17

other reason I wrote the book was, we talked

6:20

about my first book some years ago when it came out, Say

6:22

What You Mean. And after

6:25

teaching thousands of people to communicate

6:27

better, what I have realized

6:30

is that the mindfulness

6:32

piece that was kind of revolutionary

6:35

when I wrote my book and started teaching

6:38

communicators, like, wow, if we bring mindfulness in,

6:40

it's so much easier to communicate. And what I found

6:42

is, this is amazing, is like, actually, there's a lot

6:45

more that we need to communicate skillfully.

6:47

We need patience. We need

6:49

courage. We need honesty. We need

6:51

compassion, empathy. And

6:54

I wanted a way for people who are focused

6:56

on their relationships and communication,

6:59

whether it's in their personal life or in their work or

7:01

working for social change, to have

7:03

more of the inner skill set needed to make communication

7:06

effective. So it's

7:08

working on both

7:09

levels for me. And as a matter of fact, I recall

7:11

when we first met, we were

7:14

teaching or involved with nonviolent

7:16

communication. And one of the – I

7:19

wouldn't say it was a shortcoming, but I would say

7:21

one thing I didn't see enough

7:24

of in the world of nonviolent communication

7:26

as it was being taught at that point was,

7:30

it's a powerful technique,

7:32

but there's a lot more to it

7:34

than a technique. You

7:37

can just apply it as a technique. You can actually backfire, right?

7:39

And we talked a lot about this, where

7:42

in order to communicate effectively, you have

7:45

to develop a lot of capacities,

7:47

which you just referred to and you've outlined in your

7:49

book. You have to be able to,

7:52

first of all, pay attention, which was the

7:54

first chapter in your book, and we're going to get into

7:56

that in a second. If you are not

7:58

able to pay attention to your own – reactions,

8:02

sensations, thoughts, feelings,

8:05

and you're just getting carried away by those,

8:08

then no matter what technique you're

8:10

using, it's not going to be effective. So

8:12

it sounds like you've taken

8:15

this a lot further to identify

8:17

and then help people cultivate

8:19

the various qualities

8:21

that they need to be a conscious,

8:24

awake person in

8:27

the world that we're living in today.

8:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let's

8:31

just dive right in there because you actually

8:35

have 26 traits or

8:37

qualities in the book. Of course, we're not going to have

8:39

time to go into all of those

8:42

in detail, but I do want to start with attention

8:44

because, as you argue in

8:46

your book, it really is the

8:48

foundation. Without attention, it's

8:51

very difficult to cultivate any of

8:53

the other qualities because you're

8:55

not able to monitor what's happening

8:57

internally or externally without that fundamental

9:00

skill of attention. So let's begin there.

9:03

Yeah, yeah.

9:05

I think it's well known at this

9:07

point that attention

9:10

is not just a resource but a commodity

9:14

and that there's a battle raging

9:17

for our attention because when

9:19

you control attention, you can

9:21

generate profit and you can influence

9:24

action.

9:25

So

9:27

it's a really radical thing

9:29

to

9:30

reclaim and take ownership of

9:33

how we use our attention

9:36

instead of allowing our attention to be manipulated

9:39

by social media,

9:41

by habit,

9:43

by

9:46

technology to start to choose

9:48

more consciously and intentionally

9:51

where are we placing our attention, how are we using

9:53

our attention, and what's the effect of that.

9:56

So the whole

9:58

process of

10:01

really inner cultivation

10:03

and contemplative practice, which is not something

10:05

esoteric. It's not something that's just for

10:08

people who identify as spiritual. It's really

10:11

a foundational skill for living that's about

10:14

cultivating inner resources and having

10:16

the skills to live a meaningful life and be

10:18

effective in all of the areas of

10:21

our life. The foundation of it is recognizing

10:24

that we have the capacity to choose

10:26

where we place our attention. And

10:29

so the example that I give people to check

10:31

this out in the book is something as

10:33

simple as paying attention to what you're seeing

10:35

in the moment and

10:37

then shifting your attention to what you're hearing. And

10:40

just noticing that we can do that at

10:43

will, that we can sort of change

10:45

the channel and then using

10:47

that basic capacity, strengthening it

10:50

through various exercises and trainings

10:53

in order to more intentionally

10:56

cultivate our inner world and

10:59

the kinds of capacities

11:02

that we're cultivating.

11:03

Yeah, such an important

11:05

point. Yeah, I

11:08

think the other foundational point here

11:10

that the whole book is really based around is

11:13

this what gets talked about in modern neuroscience

11:16

as neuroplasticity, what

11:19

gets talked about in mysticism and

11:22

contemplative practice, as

11:24

the malleability of the heart, mind

11:26

or consciousness, which is this

11:29

fact that every day we

11:31

are practicing something, we're

11:33

strengthening something based on how we're living.

11:37

And so are we practicing,

11:39

feeling frustrated, irritable,

11:43

stressed, petty, or

11:46

are we practicing feeling grateful,

11:49

feeling patient, being kind,

11:51

generous, loving, and

11:55

how we use and place our attention plays

11:57

a key role in that and how we're relating

11:59

to these.

11:59

patterns and habits that come up in

12:02

our

12:05

life and in our person. Yeah, the teacher that used to be fond

12:07

of saying the quality

12:10

of experience is determined by the focus of

12:12

our attention. Yeah, yeah. If our attention

12:14

is fragmented and being pulled in many different directions

12:18

throughout the day by notifications on our phone, email,

12:20

dings, things, you know, all

12:24

the sounds and beeping and flashing and the hectic

12:27

nature of life that we intervene

12:30

and rein that in and create boundaries

12:32

around the many different demands

12:35

on our attention, then you can imagine what

12:37

the quality of our experience might

12:40

be in that context.

12:42

Yeah, I love that. And I

12:44

think that it's

12:46

a very counter-cultural invitation

12:50

because I think that so much of

12:53

modern society tries

12:56

to sell the idea that our

12:59

sense of well-being or happiness comes

13:02

not from how we're living but from what

13:04

we experience and what we get. It

13:06

places our focus on the external

13:09

trappings of our lives and the

13:11

point that you just made from one of your meditation teachers

13:14

is very much the opposite. It's that actually

13:16

so much of our quality

13:18

of life and well-being and how

13:21

we experience things has to do

13:24

with the quality of our attention, how we're

13:26

showing up, how we're relating. And

13:28

there's this beautiful quote that I've heard in various

13:31

places that says, to

13:33

pay attention is an act of love. And

13:36

I find that quite moving, you know, and this

13:38

is one of the things I talk a lot about in my mindful

13:41

communication work, which is just how powerful

13:43

it is on an interpersonal level

13:45

to really pay attention and give someone our

13:47

full attention. And the

13:50

same is true just as you're pointing

13:53

to for ourselves in terms of how we live

13:55

and valuing our own time

13:57

and energy enough to

13:59

pay full attention. and work against

14:01

that force of distraction and fragmentation

14:04

that's so endemic today.

14:06

So I know, you know, just from

14:08

conversations with patients and people in my life

14:11

that a lot of people feel overwhelmed

14:13

and anxious today about

14:16

all of the various challenges that we talked about

14:18

so far and one

14:22

objection sometimes

14:25

to this idea of like,

14:26

what do you mean I can't be

14:29

scrolling Instagram and Twitter all day and

14:31

you know, if I don't do that I'm

14:33

not going to be current, you know, I'm not going to be current

14:35

with what's happening, I'm not going to be able to make a difference

14:38

and act in

14:40

a way that can lead to changes

14:43

or I'm just not going to be informed and be out of

14:45

the loop. You know, you talk a

14:47

lot in your book about the importance of both, you

14:49

know, individual practices to

14:52

cultivate more attention and awareness and the other

14:54

qualities you mentioned but also social

14:57

change and historically there's been

14:59

attention there in some contemplative

15:02

practices, you know, workouts

15:04

you're on salvation versus even a certain way of expressing

15:08

because

15:11

I don't see these as mutually exclusive

15:13

and I know you don't either but there can be tension

15:16

between like, how do you stay

15:18

engaged in the world

15:20

and work to help alleviate

15:23

suffering and stay informed while

15:26

also doing what you need

15:28

to do to protect your own attention and

15:30

stay resourced

15:33

so you can be of service. Yeah,

15:35

I mean, you know, you

15:38

summarize one of the key things there, right, is that

15:40

the it's a false choice to

15:42

say that we have to choose between

15:44

however you want to language it, self-care,

15:49

wellness,

15:51

spirituality, inner resourcing,

15:53

and social activism

15:56

being engaged, involved in

15:59

our community, the the two are not mutually

16:01

exclusive. And in fact, as you pointed

16:03

to, they need each other. And this is

16:06

one of the aims of the book is to

16:09

invite people into a really

16:11

practical way of having

16:14

our work for social change and

16:17

our self-care support each other. So

16:20

service, social change,

16:23

our work in the world, these provide

16:26

a vehicle to express

16:28

our love, our care, our values

16:31

for the world, and to work together

16:33

to make the world a habitable

16:37

place for our children and

16:39

future generations. And contemplative

16:42

practice, self-care, this

16:44

whole sort of realm

16:46

of what sometimes gets called inner

16:49

technology provides a

16:51

couple of really essential pieces.

16:54

So one, it helps

16:56

us stay resource so we don't burn out. It

16:59

takes so much energy, patience,

17:03

persistence, dedication, courage,

17:07

vision, hope to stay engaged

17:09

with our community and our

17:12

world at any level, whether we're thinking

17:14

about the PTA in our community,

17:17

or working on the climate ecological

17:19

crisis, or looking at political polarization

17:22

is hard work. And so we

17:24

need a way to replenish

17:27

ourselves. This is one of the essential

17:31

roles of contemplative practice and self-care

17:34

in social change and service work.

17:37

The other piece is that it provides

17:40

a way of aligning

17:42

means with ends. And

17:45

this is the piece around what's known as

17:47

principled nonviolence, which is one

17:50

of the things that I've been studying and exploring

17:52

in various ways over my

17:54

own life and practice, which is

17:56

that the vision we have

17:58

for not only our

18:01

lives, but our world, only

18:03

comes about by living into

18:06

it. The sense of the

18:08

famous quote from Gandhi, you know, be the

18:10

change you wish to seek in the world, or whether

18:14

we look at the world's spiritual traditions,

18:17

or Dr. King's statement that violence never

18:19

brings about violence. Violence

18:21

can't end violence. Hatred never ends through hatred,

18:24

but only through love. So there's this sense that as

18:26

we work for change in the world,

18:28

if we're wanting to create a world

18:31

where it's imbued

18:33

with a sense of mutual respect, dignity,

18:37

collaboration, how do we

18:39

bring those values into the very process of working

18:41

to create them? And that's what contemplative practice offers,

18:44

is a way of living that in our

18:46

own person as we are trying

18:49

to imbue our relationships and our

18:51

communities with those values.

18:53

Couldn't agree more. And I think

18:56

I'm happy to see this conversation

18:59

that we're having now I think is one that has

19:02

been growing and evolving over

19:04

the past several years in contemplative

19:07

practice communities. And there's

19:09

much more of an emphasis on engaged quality

19:14

practice, which is exactly

19:16

what we need now.

19:18

If you've listened to this show for a while, you know

19:20

that I'm a super active guy. Depending

19:22

on the time of year, I'm either skiing, mountain biking,

19:25

hiking, backpacking, surfing, or

19:27

lifting weights on most days of the week. I

19:30

also live in a really dry climate at high

19:32

elevation. For these reasons, I pay

19:34

a lot of attention to hydration. I've

19:37

learned the hard way what happens when I get dehydrated,

19:39

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19:41

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21:02

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21:30

your book, shifting gears slightly here,

21:32

you mentioned 26 positive

21:35

traits or qualities. I'm

21:39

curious why you chose those specifically.

21:42

Maybe you can give a couple other examples as

21:44

well. There

21:47

are not any chapters on

21:50

what some might refer

21:52

to as negative or difficult experiences

21:55

of being human, like fear, anger,

21:57

grief, or sadness.

22:00

Yeah. And I know you, so

22:02

I know you're certainly not a person

22:05

to ignore the

22:07

importance of working with those emotions. So

22:09

I'm just curious about how

22:11

this choice came about.

22:13

Yeah, yeah, thanks.

22:16

Hmm.

22:17

So the number 26 is in

22:20

some ways random. There's nothing perfectly

22:22

special about it, but if you multiply

22:24

it by two, you get 52 weeks

22:26

of the year. So that's where I got 26

22:29

from is I wanted this to be a companion. It's

22:32

not the kind of book that's intended to sit

22:34

down and read over a weekend. It's the kind

22:36

of thing I'm hoping people will read over

22:38

time and use it

22:41

to inform their daily

22:43

life. So if you devote two weeks

22:45

to every chapter, you have a whole year of

22:47

learning and training and deepening

22:51

into our potential as human

22:54

beings. The qualities themselves,

22:56

many of them are drawn from Buddhist

22:59

pedagogical lists and

23:01

structures. The early Buddhist tradition

23:03

is rife

23:06

with long lists of

23:08

different things because it was an oral culture. And

23:10

so they use these lists

23:12

to remember and memorize the teachings, but

23:15

not all of them. So there

23:17

are things like courage and

23:21

curiosity, kindness,

23:24

renunciation. There's classical

23:27

meditative qualities like concentration

23:29

and wisdom and mindfulness, but then there are things

23:31

like joy and rest

23:34

and wonder and play, which

23:36

I know we have a mutual fondness

23:39

and appreciation for contentment.

23:43

So what I was looking at was

23:45

what are the range of

23:48

capacities we need as human beings to

23:50

thrive and to be more effective in

23:53

our lives? And one

23:55

of the analogies that I like to use is

23:58

if you think of the human organism, as

24:00

an instrument. How well

24:02

do we know how to play that instrument? How

24:05

familiar are we with the scales and

24:08

the notes of human consciousness

24:10

and the heart and the mind? And

24:12

so if you think about like a high fidelity stereo

24:15

system or something, you could have

24:17

a great subwoofer, but if your mid

24:20

and treble is off or

24:22

you have really cheap speakers, you're not going to be able to

24:24

appreciate the music as much. So

24:27

looking at this whole range of things we can

24:30

cultivate and experience and draw from in

24:32

our lives. So that's where the 26

24:36

and this sort of journey through all these different qualities

24:38

comes from. And then

24:40

as far as the negative qualities, the

24:43

negative, I mean the difficult ones, the painful ones,

24:46

I mean that's the bias right there, right? It's

24:48

this sense of very deeply ingrained

24:51

kind of biological pleasure pain principle

24:54

of wanting to avoid the unpleasant aspects

24:56

of our lives. The reason

24:59

there aren't chapters on them is because I believe

25:03

that we need a foundation

25:06

of health and

25:09

well-being and strength in

25:11

order to work skillfully

25:14

with and metabolize those

25:16

difficult, painful experiences

25:19

we have as human beings like grief and loss

25:21

and fear and anger and jealousy.

25:24

So

25:25

what I'm trying to do in the book is

25:29

to provide the nutrition,

25:31

the nourishment for

25:34

people to have the

25:36

right inner environment

25:38

to heal and integrate those difficult

25:40

things. And I do talk about them in the different

25:42

chapters. One of

25:44

the analogy that comes to mind that I think

25:47

you'll appreciate given your

25:49

work in functional medicine is there's

25:51

amazing quote I came across at some point from

25:54

Louis Pasteur who

25:57

had said at the end of his life for listeners

25:59

who had forgotten. he's the one who discovered germs

26:01

and is kind of the grandfather of

26:04

modern germ theory, which of

26:06

course was a revolution but then has all of its limitations

26:09

that you've talked so much about in your show. At

26:11

the end of his life he said, and I'll

26:14

say it in French just because it's fun, he translated,

26:17

he said, le microbe n'ereiène

26:19

le terre-en-et-tout. The

26:22

microbe is nothing, the landscape

26:24

is everything, right? Quite

26:26

a shift for someone who is responsible

26:30

for introducing

26:32

the concept of how microbes

26:34

cause disease in the first place. Right,

26:37

and that focus, that hyper focus of allopathic

26:39

medicine on the pathogens. In

26:41

some way I think that there's a corollary

26:44

here when we look at psychology and emotional

26:46

healing is there's this sense of what's the problem

26:50

and then fix it, focus on the pain point

26:53

rather than taking a step back and looking at,

26:55

you know, well, do you have friends,

26:58

how's your community, do you experience joy,

27:00

are you getting enough exercise and rest and taking

27:02

a more holistic picture

27:05

of our life. And so that's really why

27:08

the book is framed around these more

27:11

healthy qualities is

27:13

to create a context where we

27:15

can metabolize the difficult ones.

27:18

Yeah, it makes sense, it's sort

27:20

of a resilience building approach where

27:23

if you cultivate all of these qualities

27:26

and take time to

27:28

integrate them into your life, that

27:31

it's not going to eliminate those difficult

27:33

emotions or experiences but you'll

27:35

be in a much more capable

27:37

place when it comes to being able to

27:40

approach them and work with them.

27:43

Absolutely, yeah, exactly.

27:45

So one of the metaphors you use

27:47

in the book is about

27:49

seeds of consciousness which I

27:51

really love. Can you talk more about where

27:54

this comes from and why you chose it?

27:56

Sure, yeah.

27:59

concept comes

28:02

pretty directly out of Buddhist psychology.

28:04

I was introduced to

28:06

it from Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese

28:09

Zen master, poet, peace activist

28:11

who passed away a number of years ago. And

28:14

it's the idea that in our

28:17

mind, in our heart, however you want to think

28:19

about it, we have these different capacities.

28:22

So we have the capacity for

28:25

joy, happiness, generosity.

28:29

We have the capacity for

28:31

hatred, fear, anger,

28:35

jealousy, stinginess. And

28:38

the question is, which

28:40

seeds are we watering? What capacities

28:43

are we strengthening, which we've kind of touched on a little bit

28:45

when we're talking about attention.

28:47

There's also, you know, the

28:51

Buddha was in ancient

28:53

India and this was an agrarian economy.

28:56

So in studying

28:59

early Buddhist texts, the metaphors

29:01

are very earthy. He's looking at nature

29:04

and drawing analogies

29:06

for the wisdom and insight

29:09

he discovered in the earth. And

29:12

I just find seeds so

29:15

mind blowing. This is

29:17

a beautiful quote from Henry David Thoreau

29:20

that I'll paraphrase as something like,

29:23

I don't believe in miracles, but

29:26

convince me that you have a seed there and

29:29

I'm willing to expect wonders.

29:32

This idea that, you know, from this

29:34

very small blueprint

29:36

of life, you know, a whole tree

29:39

can grow. And

29:41

so I think

29:45

you know, my wife and

29:47

I just had a child about

29:50

a year ago. And it's been such

29:55

a reaffirming and encouraging

29:59

experience. experience to

30:01

see so many of these qualities

30:05

innate, like generosity,

30:08

you know, I was on the couch with my son

30:10

the other day and gave

30:12

him a slice of apple and he's kind of

30:14

nibbling on it and then he hands it

30:17

to me to take a little nibble and then

30:19

he eats some more and just

30:21

to see his joy at being alive

30:24

and exploring or the curiosity. And

30:27

so these are the seeds that we're born

30:29

with, but that need to be developed,

30:32

that need to be encouraged. And

30:35

so the metaphor that

30:38

is throughout the book is this invitation to

30:40

kind of become a master gardener

30:43

of our own heart and mind and

30:45

grow the kind of garden that we want to live

30:48

in.

30:48

Yeah, I love that analogy and

30:50

I think it draws together a lot

30:52

of the different concepts of the book and the importance

30:55

of attention, where you

30:57

focus what you water, what

31:00

you don't and also

31:02

the larger concept of in

31:06

a garden if you have, you're

31:08

never going to get rid of all of the weeds or

31:10

pathogens and that's

31:12

just part of a normal ecosystem. But

31:15

if the soil is healthy, if there's

31:17

plenty of water and sunshine, then the weeds

31:20

don't become

31:22

a problem, they don't get overgrown, which

31:25

of course we know this analogy from so many other

31:27

areas too. The gut microbiome is

31:30

another one in my field. Not

31:32

so much about eliminating

31:35

aggressively all of the negative

31:37

or potentially harmful influences that's

31:40

creating this much

31:42

more resilient ecosystem that

31:44

those positive qualities can grow out of. So

31:47

I really love that.

31:49

There's a phrase I like just to kind of put

31:51

a pin in this one, the permaculture

31:54

of the heart.

31:56

Beautiful. Yeah,

31:56

I love that.

32:00

I want to touch briefly on the role of

32:02

trauma. This

32:04

is something that in

32:06

the last 10, 20 years specifically

32:09

we have much greater, more sophisticated

32:11

awareness I think in psychological

32:14

circles, also in contemplative

32:16

practices and in

32:19

functional medicine about the role

32:21

that trauma plays. When

32:24

we

32:25

talk about cultivating positive

32:27

traits, it

32:31

seems like at least touching on that is helpful

32:33

for people who are dealing

32:35

with still to some extent

32:38

a pretty significant level of trauma.

32:40

Yeah. Yeah, it's

32:44

essential really.

32:47

Trauma is a specific experience

32:51

and word and I think there's also

32:53

a way in which there's a spectrum of

32:55

trauma and it's

32:58

my belief that most

33:01

of humanity that's alive

33:04

on the planet today is suffering from some

33:07

effects of trauma on that

33:09

spectrum, somewhere on that spectrum just

33:11

given the

33:14

challenges of modernity and the

33:17

dislocation of our

33:20

modern lifestyle from what

33:22

we are expecting kind of ancestrally

33:26

and from an evolutionary

33:28

biological perspective. So

33:31

drawing from the skills, the skill

33:33

set of trauma-informed practice I think

33:35

is essential as you're saying. And there are three

33:37

main principles that I talk about at

33:39

the beginning of the book that then run through

33:41

the whole exploration.

33:44

And so the first is starting

33:48

from a place of relative safety and

33:51

relaxation, how we begin

33:53

matters. This principle

33:56

is there and systems thinking and other

33:59

fields. And one of the main ways

34:01

to do that is this very simple practice of orienting,

34:04

which literally just means connecting

34:07

to our environment through our senses. It comes

34:09

out of Peter Levine's work in somatic experiencing.

34:12

We find it in mammals in the wild

34:14

that are prey. It's the sense of checking

34:16

things out and knowing that we're safe. So

34:20

starting from a place of relative

34:23

safety, wholeness, relaxation.

34:26

That's the first principle. Second

34:29

principle is start

34:32

small and go slowly. Take your

34:34

time. And again here, this

34:37

is counter-cultural. There's

34:40

a huge emphasis on as much as possible,

34:42

as fast as possible, go big. There's

34:45

a huge emphasis if we look in

34:47

the wellness industry on catharsis

34:50

and having a big release. And this is a very

34:52

different approach. The

34:55

word that comes out of trauma healing is called

34:57

titrating, which is just a

34:59

fancy way out of chemistry that means take a little bit at a time. Because

35:02

you might be working with ingredients

35:04

that are explosive or react

35:07

with each other in unpredictable ways. So

35:11

exploring particularly difficult material,

35:13

if we are looking at

35:16

deep sadness or fear or

35:19

anger or grief, to

35:21

take those things a little bit

35:24

at a time in small and manageable doses.

35:27

So orient, start from a place of wholeness, go

35:30

slow, take your time, titrate.

35:33

And then the third principle is when we are working with

35:36

painful or difficult experiences,

35:40

to always keep close at hand something

35:42

that's supportive, a resource. To

35:45

move back and forth in a kind of natural,

35:48

rhythmic way between the thing that's difficult

35:51

and something more supportive or nourishing. And

35:54

the technical term for this is called pendulating,

35:56

just like a pendulum kind of swings back and

35:59

forth. if we are able to shift

36:01

our attention from the place of

36:03

challenge to something more supportive that

36:06

stimulates our innate capacities

36:08

for healing. I

36:10

love that. It

36:12

makes a lot of sense to me as a framework

36:15

and having worked with many

36:18

patients in that situation,

36:21

my approach has been pretty similar. Different

36:25

content, but the process

36:29

is very similar. You mentioned

36:32

Oren, you recently had a

36:35

kid, which I'm aware

36:37

of, of course, and congratulations

36:38

again. You're 13

36:41

months in, so still early in the process.

36:45

Every month is so different at that stage. For

36:48

me, when we had our

36:51

daughter, Sylvie, and

36:53

most

36:55

parents can relate to this, my life changed

36:58

dramatically and my perspective and

37:00

outlook changed, my priorities

37:03

changed, the way I spent

37:05

my time changed. How

37:09

has this impacted you and

37:12

your outlook,

37:14

the way you think about the future, and just

37:18

how you experience your life

37:21

on a day-to-day basis?

37:22

Well first, just

37:24

well said, everything got

37:27

turned upside down. It's

37:29

been such a remarkable

37:32

journey. My wife

37:34

and I joke about, we're both in

37:37

our 40s, and we spent many

37:39

years doing spiritual practice,

37:41

living in monasteries, going on retreats,

37:43

doing therapy. We

37:46

joke around that we traded energy

37:49

for wisdom, to

37:52

some degree, hopefully. It's

37:55

been really humbling, and I think

37:57

it's brought out a lot of tenderness for

37:59

me. It's been humbling to,

38:02

on multiple levels. One, just,

38:04

I have such a deep and profound

38:07

appreciation now, just

38:10

for

38:10

the miracle of

38:12

any human being getting born

38:14

and surviving. It's so

38:16

remarkable how much

38:19

time and energy and care it takes

38:21

to keep a human being alive and

38:23

raise them. So there's this deep appreciation

38:26

for the generosity of all parents,

38:29

my own, of course, as well, and the miracle

38:31

of life. A humility

38:34

around my own limitations, feeling

38:36

pushed to my edges, and particularly

38:38

as a meditation teacher, seeing the places

38:40

where I run out of patience or where I get

38:43

angry or frustrated. And

38:46

that's just been a tremendous teacher.

38:49

And also, as I

38:52

kind of alluded to before,

38:54

it's just reaffirmed this deep faith

38:57

in the goodness of humanity, that

38:59

just seeing not only the innate

39:01

goodness in our son, but

39:04

how his utter vulnerability

39:05

and innocence

39:11

calls forth so much goodness,

39:14

not just in ourselves, but in strangers. I

39:17

walk down the street with him strapped

39:20

to my chest in a

39:22

carry, and complete strangers just

39:24

light up, just beaming. And

39:28

so it's this reminder on

39:30

a daily basis of

39:32

the power of vulnerability to

39:35

recollect the goodness

39:37

in our hearts. And

39:40

I just learned, I learned from him on a daily basis

39:43

about all of the stuff that's in this book about

39:45

mindfulness, about rest, about letting

39:47

go, about patience, about devotion,

39:49

about wonder, about

39:51

compassion for myself, as well as for

39:54

him. So it's just a tremendous

39:56

gift to have this

39:58

reminder all of the time. to

40:01

be present, to be intentional

40:05

about how I'm living, and

40:07

to use my time well.

40:09

Yeah, I often tell people, Sylvia

40:12

is my deepest teacher,

40:14

my most exacting teacher. Uncompromising.

40:19

You know, sitting and staring at a wall

40:21

for ten days is luxurious

40:25

compared to the trials

40:27

and tribulations of being a parent.

40:30

Yeah, yeah. I think

40:32

the last piece, and you mentioned this in your

40:34

question, it's

40:37

inviting me into a more

40:39

honest and deep relationship with

40:43

a lot of the painful aspects of our world. You

40:46

know, and I am not looking forward

40:48

to how

40:50

to have

40:51

conversations with him about

40:56

racism, colonialism,

40:59

genocide, war. I mean, thankfully,

41:03

there are wonderful resources today for how to have

41:05

those conversations with our children. And

41:09

then looking at the future, you know, looking

41:11

into the present moment deeply and seeing all

41:13

the challenges that we started the conversation

41:16

off by naming and feeling

41:18

the vulnerability of that. And so his

41:21

presence in my life, it

41:23

extends the horizon, right,

41:26

of how I see myself and

41:28

provides a different

41:31

level of compassionate

41:33

investment

41:35

in my work.

41:39

Yeah,

41:41

very similar for me. And I

41:44

do feel like if,

41:46

you know,

41:47

we are going to make it out of the mess that we're in, it's

41:49

going to be because our children are able

41:52

to meet and respond

41:55

to these varying crises in a conscious

41:58

way. And

42:00

so these

42:04

are the times we live in and we can only just

42:06

do the best we can to respond to them

42:08

and prepare our children for what

42:10

they're going to be living into. So, Oren,

42:13

thank you so much for the conversation today. The

42:16

book is Your Heart Was Made for

42:18

This, Contemplative Practices to Meet a World

42:20

in Crisis with Courage, Integrity, and Love.

42:23

Where can people learn more about it and pick

42:25

up a copy?

42:27

Yeah, so the book is available in bookstores

42:29

everywhere. If they order through

42:31

my website, OrenJSopher.com,

42:33

there's some nice free gifts, a little discount,

42:36

and some bonus guided meditations. And that's

42:38

where folks can find out more about my

42:40

work, my other books, and how to stay in touch.

42:43

Great. Pleasure to see you

42:45

again. It's been too long. Yeah.

42:48

Yeah. I

42:51

really enjoy the book and look forward

42:53

to staying in touch and

42:56

continuing to have this conversation.

42:58

Thanks, Chris, and thanks again for having me

43:00

on the show.

43:01

Thanks, everyone, for listening. Keep sending your questions

43:03

to chriscrusher.com slash podcast question,

43:06

and we'll see you next time.

43:09

That's the end of this episode of Revolution

43:11

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43:13

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43:15

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43:22

If you'd like to ask a question for me to answer on

43:24

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43:28

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43:30

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43:34

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43:37

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43:40

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43:43

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43:45

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43:47

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43:50

to stay abreast of the latest developments. Thanks

43:53

so much for listening. Talk to you next time. Thank

44:00

you.