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1:52

Hey everybody, Chris Koster here. Welcome to another episode

1:54

of Revolution Health Radio. This week,

1:57

my guest is Dr. Stefan van Vliet and

1:59

we. We are going to dive into recent

2:02

research on the nutritional differences

2:04

between grass and grain-fed meat.

2:07

Now, intuitively, we might suspect

2:10

that there are significant differences here. We

2:12

know that for human beings, if

2:15

a human being changes their diet significantly,

2:18

then they're going to see differences

2:20

in their own biochemical

2:22

markers that reflect health

2:25

and differences in blood levels of various

2:27

compounds based on their diet. And

2:30

so, of course, we suspect that that's also

2:32

true for animals that are consuming

2:34

different diets, grass versus grain-fed.

2:38

And certainly, we have had research in the past

2:40

that gave us some indications

2:42

here, particularly for essential vitamins and

2:44

minerals. But what

2:47

Dr. van Vliet's group has done is

2:49

take that to a greater level

2:51

of resolution. They're looking at essential

2:53

fatty acid profiles, like omega-3

2:56

and omega-6, but also saturated

2:59

fat, but in much more detail.

3:01

They're looking at carbon chain

3:03

length and intermediary fatty

3:06

acids. And then they are

3:08

also starting to look at

3:10

the presence of phytonutrients

3:12

in meat, in

3:13

grass-fed animals versus grain-fed

3:15

animals. These are some of the same compounds

3:19

that we get from eating plants, but it turns

3:21

out that we may get meaningful

3:23

amounts of them from eating grass-fed

3:27

animals. So this was a fascinating

3:29

conversation, a lot of cutting-edge

3:31

research here, and some really

3:34

exciting new insights

3:36

into the importance of regenerative

3:39

ranching and methods of raising animals

3:42

and how that impacts animal

3:44

health and very likely human health.

3:47

So

3:48

let's dive in. Stefan,

3:50

it's a pleasure to have you back on the show. I'm

3:52

glad to be back, Chris. It's been a while.

3:55

It has been a while and you've been busy. I've

3:57

been really looking forward to talking.

3:59

to you about some of your latest research on

4:02

grazing practices and how they impact

4:05

the nutritional composition of meat because this

4:07

is something that I've intuitively suspected

4:09

for a long time and

4:12

we didn't really have until fairly recently

4:15

much data to back up any kind

4:17

of intuitive suspicions or guesses

4:19

that we might have had about how

4:22

grazing impacts the broader

4:24

nutritional composition. Certainly we had some

4:26

data on essential vitamins and minerals

4:28

and fatty acids and things like that but

4:31

that's just one part of

4:33

the nutritional composition of meat, important part

4:35

for sure but not the only consideration.

4:38

So maybe you could just start by broadly

4:42

introducing what you've been up to

4:44

lately and what kinds of

4:47

nutrients and nutritional profiles

4:49

you've been looking at in meat in

4:51

relation to grazing. Absolutely, so

4:54

I think since last time that we spoke I was actually

4:56

still at Duke University and I've

4:59

moved to Utah now so I'm at the

5:01

Center for Human Nutrition Studies at Utah State

5:03

University. It's a great

5:06

position that opened up here. It's

5:08

kind of like a clinical facility where I'm at. Looks

5:11

like a doctor's office so we do a lot of nutrition

5:14

trials here but what is nice about the

5:17

place where I'm at now is that it's also an ag

5:19

school so there is this combination

5:21

of ag culture, human nutrition and

5:23

it's really the sort of the field

5:25

that my research group operates

5:28

in. So that's been nice and yeah

5:30

we've continued a lot of our projects on,

5:32

as you mentioned, how different grazing practices

5:36

impact the nutritional composition of meat

5:38

and we don't just study meat.

5:41

We take a broader look at regenerative agriculture

5:44

or call it agroecology in science

5:46

but it's basically agricultural

5:49

practices such as multi-cropping,

5:53

lay rotations where you maybe integrate

5:55

animals and crops, you have

5:57

maybe multi-species grazing, so things

5:59

that by the IPCC, the Intergovernmental

6:02

Panel on Climate Change, one of the leading bodies

6:05

on climate change, suggests

6:07

our practices that can improve the sustainability

6:10

of agriculture. So essentially

6:12

what we do in our group is we

6:14

take a lot of those or look at a lot

6:16

of those practices and see, well, do they also

6:18

translate into a human

6:21

nutrition benefit and potentially a human health benefit

6:23

when we consume foods from more sustainable

6:26

or regenerative systems? And it's really

6:28

interesting that you noted that, Chris, about

6:31

intuitively

6:33

how that would make a difference, would you feed an animal,

6:35

right? And I agree intuitively

6:38

it makes sense, but okay, we have to be critical as scientists

6:40

and look at the data, but

6:42

sort of, I

6:44

come at this from a human nutrition standpoint, and

6:46

we often study people that were on standard

6:48

American diets or on Mediterranean

6:50

diets or other whole foods diets, right? And

6:53

if I'd asked you, Chris, after three months on

6:55

those diets, would you expect a difference in

6:57

health? You'd probably say yes.

7:00

If we do that with a cow,

7:03

then we put them on pasture

7:05

for the last three months of their life or in a feedlot,

7:09

one could expect to see differences

7:11

there too, right? Because it's two completely different

7:13

diets. And if we do that with lab mice, we

7:15

expect differences, but for some reason for

7:17

a long time with animals, we

7:19

did not think there would be differences. But

7:22

yeah, I mean,

7:23

a cow is a mammal, just like

7:25

a human. And if you put them on two completely

7:28

different diets, being on a grain-based

7:30

ration in a feedlot or grazing outside

7:32

on a large number of plants, you get

7:34

a very much different nutritional profile and

7:36

also an animal metabolic health profile.

7:40

Absolutely. I mean, it's common sense, but

7:42

as you said,

7:45

that's not enough if you want

7:47

to be rigorous

7:49

in your scientific approach just to apply common

7:51

sense. You have to do the research to back it up.

7:54

And that's exactly what you've been working on.

7:56

So tell us a little bit about some of the recent work

7:58

you've been up to.

7:59

We've been working on a

8:01

project that we started on. Last time we talked

8:03

about it's called the Beef Nutrient

8:06

Density Project. Basically we are working

8:08

directly with farmers where

8:10

we source a lot of beef from

8:13

the supply chain and we also buy beef in

8:16

stores, grass fat, grain fat. We work

8:18

with smaller feedlots

8:20

that may not feed as much grain

8:22

or have shorter finishing periods. But basically the

8:25

goal of the project is to look at 250 farms, 750 steaks,

8:27

so three steaks per farm,

8:29

and

8:32

to look at the source of nutritional variation

8:35

and what is causing

8:37

that variation. What we are seeing so

8:39

far Chris is that on average

8:43

we see that the omega-6 to 3 ratio

8:46

is improved in grass fat beef as you

8:48

would expect. It's about three

8:50

to one so for every omega-6, three

8:53

omega-6 there's one omega-3. In

8:55

the feedlot system we see that it's about 10

8:58

to one but it

9:00

is also important to notice that there's huge variation

9:03

about an 11-fold variation in

9:05

the grass fat beef systems

9:07

and what we're seeing initially

9:10

in our data is that

9:11

definitely the ranchers that use

9:13

these agroecological practices such

9:16

as rotational grazing on birette first

9:18

pastures, moving the animals around

9:20

regularly, not over grazing on the pasture,

9:23

they end up with the most favorable omega-6

9:26

to 3 ratios. We also typically

9:28

see that the animals are in good

9:30

metabolic health. We can tell that by the

9:33

meat as well looking at for instance oxidative

9:35

stress markers and also the

9:37

phytochemicals, the plant secondary compounds

9:40

that are

9:41

thought to largely have anti-inflammatory

9:44

and antioxidant effects certainly to the animal

9:46

whether it has so to humans

9:49

from consuming meat is up in the air at the moment

9:51

but animal health is improved.

9:54

We see that those are also the highest when

9:57

people have

9:59

used these

9:59

these regenerative or rotational

10:02

grazing practices amongst grass-fed beef systems.

10:04

When animals are grazing more monoculture

10:06

pastures or they're overgrazing the pasture,

10:09

we see a reduction in the nutrient

10:11

density and then the lowest

10:14

amounts of these, quote unquote, beneficial compounds,

10:16

omega-3s, phytochemicals,

10:19

long-chain saturated fatty acids, B vitamins,

10:22

that are typically a little bit reduced in

10:25

the feedlot-finished animals.

10:27

Yeah, that makes sense to me again. It's

10:31

one ecosystem where all

10:33

of these different parts influence

10:35

the whole. And we've

10:38

had a lot of ranchers on the show over

10:40

the past couple of years talking about the regenerative

10:42

practices that you're referring to and

10:45

why they're so important for animal

10:47

health, for ecosystem, local

10:49

environment health, and then, of course, ultimately

10:51

human health from consuming

10:54

animals that have better nutritional profiles.

10:57

With that in mind, an 11-fold

10:59

variation is really

11:01

significant. Would

11:03

you say that the

11:05

grass-fed animals that were

11:09

done in the most conventional way, let's

11:11

say, were close

11:13

to feedlot animals, or

11:15

was there still a difference?

11:17

Yeah, no, that's a good question, Chris. And I cannot

11:19

stick my hand in the fire for it, but my gut feeling

11:21

tells me is that those animals were fed grains

11:24

and they weren't truly grass-fed. That's

11:26

what I think. Because, I mean, that's what the

11:28

data suggests. And

11:30

to be fair, these were samples that we

11:32

just bought in grocery stores. So unfortunately,

11:35

that means also that we don't

11:37

have insight into their practices, per se. And

11:41

obviously, we know the brand, but we keep this all sort

11:43

of de-identified, obviously. But

11:46

yeah, looking at that data,

11:48

to me, it suggests that these animals were not like

11:50

grass-fed. And because sometimes

11:52

they even had worse omega-63 ratios than

11:55

your average feedlot beef. But

11:57

I must say, the farmers that...

11:59

We worked with directly or they sent

12:02

in samples and filled out their management data

12:04

and they, you know, the ones that

12:06

use these quote unquote rotational crazy practices,

12:09

agricultural practices or regenerative

12:11

practices, as people often say. Yeah,

12:13

those rose to the top in

12:15

terms of a lot of these

12:17

farmers have omega six to three ratios

12:20

that were closer to one

12:22

to one and two to one. So that's kind

12:24

of considered the gold standard,

12:27

really. And they also ended

12:29

up with high amounts of of fiber

12:31

chemicals, plant secondary compounds. And one

12:33

thing we also noticed was is that niacin

12:36

vitamin B3 was also elevated

12:40

in many of these farmers and

12:42

suggesting that

12:43

and we know that the fresh

12:46

forage is provide the precursors to to

12:48

that to that vitamin. So

12:50

those were things that we noticed.

12:53

And we also noticed, and this was also kind

12:55

of surprising to me initially, but

12:57

then

12:58

looking back on it, it cannot be too surprising because

13:00

we were so focused in the field on omega

13:03

three fatty acids that we

13:05

did not really look at saturated fatty acids properly

13:09

in the past. But what we're seeing

13:11

in polyunsaturated fatty acids, we see these very

13:14

long chain ones such as EPA

13:16

and DHA and then ALA and

13:18

DPA.

13:19

We see those getting enriched. So the very long

13:22

chain polyunsaturated fatty acids. Well,

13:24

we see the same thing with saturated

13:26

fatty acids, the very long chain

13:29

ones such as bahainic

13:31

acid, for instance, or non-dekonoiic

13:33

acid. So it's C18

13:36

and up for the sort of the listeners

13:39

that have an idea on the carbon

13:42

lengths of these fatty acids. But

13:44

these long chain ones, they're up

13:47

as a result of forage based

13:49

diets. And what is interesting

13:51

is that at least in epidemiological studies, higher

13:54

amounts, circulating amounts of these

13:56

very long chain saturated fatty acids are often

13:58

neutral.

13:59

or associated with a decreased risk of cardiovascular

14:02

disease and diabetes. So, yeah,

14:05

certainly is interesting. And then another avenue

14:08

to explore is that

14:10

saturated fat isn't saturated fat, isn't saturated

14:12

fat either. And, you know, there's a concern

14:15

regarding saturated fat from

14:17

beef and red meat. And we can

14:19

go into that too, whether that

14:21

is always justified. But anyway,

14:23

we do see a more quote unquote, at least

14:25

on paper, favorable saturated fatty acid profile

14:28

too. And it was something that was not on my radar.

14:30

Hmm. That's

14:32

really interesting. I want to come back to that,

14:34

but I also want to touch on the phytochemicals

14:37

briefly, because I think this is something that

14:39

if I'm correct me, if I'm wrong, was novel

14:43

with your research or, or at least

14:45

it seems like I might've seen in one, one other paper,

14:47

I could be imagining that.

14:50

But I'm, I'm interested in this. We, like

14:52

you said, we don't know what, whether

14:55

consuming these phytochemicals in meat

14:58

has any human health effects. We

15:01

do know that it does seem to benefit

15:04

the animal. And again,

15:06

you know, just applying common sense, a healthier

15:09

animal, all other things being

15:11

equal, probably lead to better

15:13

nutritional profile and composition

15:16

and, and, you know, healthier human if they're

15:18

eating that animal. But what do

15:20

we know about, you know, maybe you

15:22

could give some examples of these phytochemicals and

15:24

what we know about how they're impacting the animal's

15:27

health and any, if there's anything at all so

15:29

far that's been published in

15:32

terms of the human health effects of

15:34

phytonutrients in meat, because of course the

15:37

common wisdom is you can only get phytonutrients

15:39

from plants, you know, from eating plant foods.

15:42

And if it's true that we can get phytonutrients

15:44

as well from consuming animal foods,

15:47

that's a pretty big shift in

15:49

what, you know, the dominant

15:50

kind of paradigm or idea about nutrition.

15:53

Yeah, that's true, Chris. And you can get phytonutrients

15:55

from drinking breast milk as well. So, you

15:58

know, and, and, and, and.

15:59

it's breast milk from as a baby from

16:02

a mother.

16:05

Certainly not saying you should eat, drink breast milk as an adult.

16:08

But my point being is if you can find

16:10

this in breast milk of mothers that consume

16:12

a diet rich in fruits

16:14

and vegetables

16:15

and it's transfer to the baby like that, it's

16:18

not that weird to think

16:20

that if you feed a phytochemically rich diet

16:22

to a cow, that it's milk and

16:24

meat gets enriched in these phytochemicals.

16:26

So phytochemicals are

16:29

secondary metabolites of brands. We call

16:31

them secondary because for the

16:33

longest time we had no idea what they did.

16:35

So we thought they weren't important.

16:37

They are not essential to the plant survival

16:40

from sort of a metabolism standpoint. But I would argue

16:42

that without these phytochemicals,

16:44

which are often plant defense

16:47

mechanisms against overgrazing.

16:50

So sometimes a plant likes to maybe

16:52

be nibble a little bit, but not even fully. So

16:55

certain alkaloids or it's protecting itself

16:57

from UV light or water

17:00

stress or drought. So a lot of times

17:02

these are plant

17:04

defense mechanisms, but they're also

17:06

sort of volatile compounds, fragrance that

17:09

attract animals to

17:11

eat them. So it has

17:13

a dual role, but these plant phytochemicals,

17:16

they are typically also noted

17:19

as antioxidants. So all

17:22

phytochemicals or most phytochemicals have

17:24

a hydroxyl group, and that means that they are antioxidants.

17:28

So they can serve as antioxidants, most

17:31

of them at least, when animals consume

17:33

them and also when we consume

17:35

them. And it's really a novel area

17:37

of research for sure. I mean, I often compare

17:39

it to I mean, I wasn't alive clearly, but

17:43

I teach a course in advanced micronutrient

17:45

metabolism where we go a lot over the history

17:48

of how these vitamins were discovered. And

17:50

this was about 100 years ago.

17:52

And, you know, they were rapid discoveries

17:54

about vitamins, how they impacted metabolism.

17:56

And I feel like we're a little bit in

17:59

at that stage now. with phytochemicals. It

18:01

is in its infancy. There's probably hundreds

18:04

of thousands of these compounds, but we

18:06

have identified major ones and these

18:08

are things that are often named after

18:10

the food that they're rich in. So we have

18:13

major one is cinnamic acid.

18:16

It is rich in cinnamon, but it's almost found

18:18

in every plant. We have caffeic

18:20

acid, benzoic acid. These

18:23

are all common phytochemicals

18:25

that are found within

18:28

plants, but also animals and then

18:31

humans. And what is interesting

18:33

about those is that, yes, if you consume

18:36

a more phytochemically rich diet, whether you're a

18:38

human or an animal, that

18:40

we have higher amounts of these. And

18:43

what is particularly interesting, some of

18:45

the findings that we're making regarding

18:47

animal-sourced fruits, animals,

18:50

especially ruminants, consume forages

18:52

of vegetation that you and I cannot consume.

18:56

They might be toxic to us or they might be too fibrous,

18:59

but they may also contain

19:01

certain beneficial or medicinal compounds.

19:04

And that is a way of further providing

19:06

these to us in our diet. And

19:08

then of course,

19:10

it also further increases the overall phytochemical

19:13

origins of our diet.

19:15

Yeah. Yeah. That's something

19:17

I've always argued is that cattle

19:21

can transform plant

19:23

foods that we can't consume

19:25

because of our different physiology into

19:28

compounds that are beneficial for us. So

19:30

they do a lot of that hard work for us

19:33

and we benefit from it. And this

19:35

seems to be potentially another area where

19:37

that's also true. And I find

19:39

it particularly interesting in light

19:42

of the recent popularity of carnivore

19:44

diet and a lot of discussion

19:47

around, you know, if we look

19:49

at historical traditional

19:51

cultures historically, to my

19:53

knowledge, we don't know

19:55

of a single one that only ate animal

19:58

foods, like 100% exclusively. animal

20:00

foods, nor do we know of one that ate exclusively

20:03

plant foods. And it seems that, you

20:06

know, just judging from this ancestral template,

20:08

that some, some combination of plant

20:10

and animal foods seems to be best for, for

20:12

most people. And I, you know, that's controversial

20:15

statement these days, but that's my,

20:18

my belief. But it is interesting

20:20

to me that there's, that, you know, I've

20:22

often wondered, well,

20:25

if that's true, we

20:27

also know that some people are thriving.

20:30

On a, you know, or at least appear to be thriving

20:33

from all the ways that we can measure that

20:35

both subjectively and objectively on

20:38

a carnivore diet. And

20:40

if these phytonutrients are so beneficial

20:43

to health, which so many studies do suggest

20:45

that they are, how do you resolve

20:47

that apparent contradiction? And maybe

20:50

we don't know yet, but maybe this is one potential

20:53

way of resolving that contradiction that

20:55

actually people are getting phytonutrients. So

20:57

just getting them from animal foods instead

21:00

of plant foods.

21:01

Yeah, no, I agree, Chris. And

21:03

that's certainly true. Well, although I do want to make it

21:05

crystal clear is that a plant

21:07

is a better source of phytochemicals than a

21:09

piece of meat or milk. So

21:13

I always say that the carrot is a better source of beta-carotene

21:16

than, than grass-fed beef is. And

21:18

I agree that

21:20

people that are on animal-based diets or

21:22

on carnivore diets are likely to get

21:24

so many phytochemicals in from animal-sourced

21:27

foods. But yeah, they're not getting

21:29

it in to the extent

21:31

that someone on a mixed diet,

21:34

on an omnivorous diet would, that includes plenty

21:36

of fruits and vegetables as well. And I'm with you, Chris,

21:39

is that I think for the vast

21:41

majority of the population, I think they operate

21:43

best on a sort of a spectrum

21:46

of omnivory, having

21:48

both planted animal-sourced foods. But it is true

21:51

that you always have outliers that a certain portion

21:53

of the population seems to be thriving

21:55

on vegan diets

21:56

and a certain portion. And I know we

21:59

have less data on that. it's more self-reported

22:01

but seems to be in good health

22:03

on an animal-based diet. And

22:06

I always question whether that means

22:08

that we should extrapolate that on to

22:11

how the entire population should eat.

22:15

I don't know what your feelings are about

22:17

it but I don't

22:19

think that every vegan that filled

22:21

a vegan diet is because they didn't do the diet, right?

22:23

I mean, we know there's intra-individual differences in

22:25

nutrient metabolism from many

22:28

different studies and how you metabolize even

22:30

things such as iron or carotenoids

22:34

and then tocopherols, precursors

22:36

to vitamin A and E.

22:38

But yeah, to me

22:40

it always points to the following. It's just the incredible

22:43

resilience as a human being that we can be

22:45

on a vegan diet or on a carnivore diet and still

22:47

be alive.

22:48

Yeah, I agree with you. I've spoken

22:51

a lot about this in the past

22:53

and have experienced it firsthand.

22:55

When I tried a vegan diet many years ago and

22:57

also with many, many patients that I've worked with

23:00

and many clinicians I've trained that have worked with

23:02

patients as well, so I have a pretty

23:05

broad perspective on this that's

23:07

backed up by a lot of lab testing and data.

23:09

I think there is

23:11

such huge intra-individual variation in

23:13

responses to vegan diets for all of

23:15

the reasons that you mentioned is that plants

23:18

contain a lot of precursor nutrients

23:21

and those nutrients often need to be converted

23:23

into the most active forms for us to

23:26

get the full benefits. So carotenes are

23:28

a good example. They get converted

23:30

into retinol. K1

23:33

gets converted into K2. You

23:35

have the alpha-linolenic

23:38

acid, the essential

23:41

fatty acids, linoleic acid and

23:43

alpha-linolenic acid get converted into the downstream

23:46

EPA and DHA or

23:48

AA in the case of omega-6s. You've

23:51

got all of these conversions happening all the time

23:53

and those conversions often involve

23:56

multi-step enzymatic pathways

23:58

and each of those enzymes at

24:01

each of those steps requires the presence

24:03

of certain nutrients, which

24:06

often are underrepresented on

24:08

a vegan diet. But if you have

24:10

someone who just genetically is,

24:13

or because they're doing a better

24:15

job at sourcing nutrients, is

24:18

doing a really, is really efficiently

24:20

making those conversions, then they

24:23

could potentially do quite well because

24:26

they're still getting all

24:28

of the downstream active forms

24:31

of all of the nutrients in adequate amounts.

24:34

Whereas if you have somebody who, for

24:36

either genetic or nutritional reasons, is

24:38

not making those conversions efficiently,

24:40

then that person can start

24:42

to struggle almost immediately in some cases.

24:45

In others, it might take a few months, or

24:48

in still others, it could take even longer. And

24:51

that's what makes this so tricky because

24:53

one person might start

24:55

a vegan diet and have a really great experience,

24:58

and then someone else starts it and they feel

25:00

like they got hit by a bus. And

25:02

the person who had a great experience naturally

25:04

thinks, well, you must not be

25:06

doing it right because I started

25:09

it and I feel great. But

25:11

of course, it's not that simple. And

25:14

I would just say that, yes,

25:17

it's possible for

25:19

some people to do well on a 100% plant-based

25:23

diet, but you introduce a lot

25:25

of risk that wouldn't be there if you're

25:28

consuming an omnivorous diet where you're

25:30

also eating preformed, the

25:34

active preformed version

25:36

of the nutrients like retinol or K2

25:39

or EPA and DHA instead of just

25:42

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25:44

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and maybe think of an important point, Chris,

29:00

when you mentioned that also about like the conversion,

29:02

and because it's oftentimes something

29:04

that we hear also on these

29:07

phytochemicals, and we don't fully understand the

29:09

pathways yet, but because you have,

29:13

we know there's a flavonoid pathway,

29:15

for instance, within plants where you

29:17

might start, actually you start all the way with amino

29:19

acids, right? Because you start off with phenylalanine

29:22

and tyrosine, and it's converted into

29:24

a cinnamic acid, cumeric acid. These are

29:27

common major phytochemicals, naringenin,

29:30

and from there on, it goes down to flavonones, isoflavones,

29:33

anthocyanidins, right, which are red to

29:35

purple. They give the berries their

29:37

nice color. And what

29:39

we see though, also in sort of the literature

29:42

is that people with a low baseline intake, when you then

29:44

increase it, they have a benefit.

29:46

I mean, there was a randomized controlled

29:49

trial that recently came out in PNAS that

29:52

looked at, I think it was about 3,500 people, and

29:55

people with low baseline intake of flavonols

29:58

improved cognitive function.

29:59

over several years, not ones that are

30:02

already high in things that it's also common to

30:04

see. And also, it's important

30:06

to know it's an incredible variation amongst people

30:08

because even if you, for

30:10

instance, give a labeled

30:13

phytochemical to someone, so basically it has a

30:15

sort of a yeah, there's a dirty carbon label

30:18

on it, won't get too technical, but it basically it's

30:20

like putting a flag on that phytochemical,

30:23

giving it to someone and then tracing it to the body.

30:25

Now, and this

30:28

also speaks to the fact that usually people say, oh, these

30:30

things have low bioavailability. Well,

30:32

I do not agree with

30:34

that 100% because what you see

30:37

is that let's say if you take humeric

30:40

acid as the parent compound and you have that

30:42

labeled, what would you see is you start enriching 20,

30:45

30 other compounds in the blood of people.

30:47

So there must be some conversion probably

30:50

by our gut microbiota, perhaps

30:52

even in our liver, that then

30:54

actually starts to enrich

30:58

or produce other compounds or other antioxidants

31:01

that have a beneficial effect. And some studies

31:03

would suggest that the bioavailability of the parent

31:05

compound may only be 1%, but if you look at all

31:07

these other phytochemicals, it may be like 13%, 15%, and

31:11

they are measurable

31:14

in our blood for 48 hours. And

31:17

within that, they may go into our

31:19

cells and then for

31:22

brain or an escape again. This

31:24

is still very much

31:26

a novel area

31:28

of interest, but

31:30

what you do see and what you also see there is the variation

31:33

amongst people. And again, comes back

31:35

to even with phytochemicals,

31:37

if you're very efficient in metallolizing

31:41

these,

31:43

that's why maybe some people might

31:45

have more benefits than others.

31:47

And perhaps some carnivores are very

31:49

efficient in maintaining these phytochemicals

31:52

and using them. I mean, we

31:54

don't know.

31:55

But my point being is that, yeah,

31:57

I'd say there's

32:00

There is now data

32:02

that is exciting about phytochemicals. Also the Eat

32:04

Right Foundation for the first time came

32:06

out with a recommendation on the

32:09

amounts of play bones that

32:13

we should eat. I think it was about 600 milligrams a day.

32:15

And it was based on

32:17

a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.

32:19

I think they looked at, I think

32:21

it was like 120 or something like that. So

32:23

I mean, it's certainly, we

32:26

are certainly learning more and more about these phytochemicals

32:29

and starting to learn that, hey, they do impact,

32:31

yeah, signaling pathways. For instance, one

32:33

thing to note is that, yeah, if you take

32:36

a tumor cell and you put phytochemicals on

32:38

it, you typically see a decrease in tumor

32:41

growth, or if you have pancreatic beta

32:43

cells, and you see that it impacts

32:47

insulin production and things like that. So

32:50

how they do so in vivo in the human body,

32:52

we don't know a lot yet, but it is likely

32:55

that they are impacting our health. And

32:57

the same thing with animals. What we

32:59

see is that animals are more phytochemically

33:02

rich diets, yet they have less oxidative stress. And

33:05

on paper, that meat looks healthier, but whether

33:08

that has an appreciable impact on human health,

33:10

that's something that we are studying

33:12

in multiple randomized controlled trials now.

33:15

Yeah, so fascinating. I

33:18

wanna circle back to something we

33:20

were talking about earlier, which is fatty acid

33:22

profile meat, and the fact that

33:25

the ranches they're using, the

33:27

most regenerative practices are probably

33:29

getting closer to two to one, or even

33:32

one to one omega six to

33:34

omega three ratio, which is

33:37

probably closer to the historical ratio

33:39

of these fats that we consume

33:41

before industrial seed oils were widely

33:44

introduced into the diet. Do

33:46

you think that if

33:49

someone is eating, like take

33:51

a hypothetical person who's exclusively

33:53

eating meat from a regenerative ranch

33:56

that's in that one to one, two to one ratio.

33:59

I

34:00

haven't done the math on this yet,

34:03

but

34:04

if they were just consuming

34:07

meat and not much seafood,

34:09

would they be getting enough Omega-3s

34:12

to meet the recommended amounts

34:16

just from that beef-based diet?

34:19

Yeah, I mean, there are some modeling

34:21

workers in Australian populations and

34:23

in Irish populations. It's a combination

34:25

of modeling work based on intake, but it

34:28

would suggest that people

34:31

that eat a decent amount

34:33

of meat, I mean carnivores obviously probably eat a

34:35

few pounds a day, I

34:37

think. But what

34:40

these studies would suggest in more omnivorous populations

34:42

that people that eat, let's say, three

34:44

or four ounces a day or so, that

34:47

it can have a meaningful contribution

34:49

to their Omega-3 intake

34:51

and can be up

34:54

to 30 milligrams or so of

34:56

combined DHA, EPA, and

34:58

DPA. And

35:02

so

35:03

there's no official recommendations for the amount

35:05

of Omega-3s that we should eat, right? Most

35:07

groups recommend anywhere

35:10

from 100 to 200, 300 milligrams,

35:12

although at least in coastal

35:14

populations, even currently, they might

35:17

go higher than that,

35:18

especially in Sardinia or some of the Japanese

35:20

that are consuming more fish, they might have an intake that

35:22

is closer to a gram or so even.

35:25

But my point is there are some studies

35:27

to suggest that, yes, these Omega-3s

35:29

can contribute meaningfully, especially

35:31

in populations that eat a lot of

35:34

grass-fed meat, such as Australians and

35:36

the Irish. And there was a nice study

35:39

that came out, I think, a year or so

35:41

ago from Hannah Ritchie in

35:44

Newcastle. And she,

35:47

based on population

35:48

intake data in the UK,

35:50

had modeled that, yeah,

35:53

about 30%, 40% or so of

35:55

daily intake recommended by

35:57

a European agency. Could be met.

35:59

by eating grass-fed meat. And

36:03

that does not even include eggs and

36:07

this was only beef I must say, but it doesn't even include

36:09

eggs or pork or other milk

36:12

for that matter. So yeah, I definitely think it's possible.

36:15

I mean, is there a benefit to eating fish? Yes, absolutely.

36:17

I mean fish is fatty fish is a very

36:20

rich source of DHA and EPA.

36:22

So if you

36:24

ask me personally, then yeah, I would offer eating

36:26

fish a few times a week too, but you

36:28

know, we eat meat more often probably in fish, at least

36:30

most people. So if we eat that from pasture

36:32

systems, then yes, I think it can contribute

36:35

meaningfully. And again, I

36:37

don't know the, I don't have the data,

36:40

but my hypothesis would be if you have

36:42

had a carnivore person that was eating

36:44

grain-fed meat for this grass-fed meat, is

36:46

that the blood omega-6-3

36:49

ratio of the person eating grass-fed beef

36:51

would look a whole lot better.

36:54

Absolutely. I

36:55

just think it's interesting because again, it's

36:58

another paradigm shift, right? Historically,

37:01

most sources would not

37:03

list beef as a meaningful contributor

37:06

to omega-3 fat, the

37:10

long-chain omega-3 fat intake. And it still

37:12

isn't in many cases, right? We're talking

37:14

about meat that comes from this

37:17

raise in a particular way. And

37:20

you know, if someone's just, the average person's

37:22

going to the average grocery store and buying the

37:24

average cut of beef, they're not going to get this

37:26

benefit. So, you know, this is

37:30

not applicable to the vast

37:33

majority of beef that people are encountering

37:35

in the grocery store at this time. But we

37:38

both know that there's a lot happening

37:41

here in this space, and a lot of people are becoming

37:43

more and more aware of the benefits of regenerative,

37:47

regeneratively raised beef. And people

37:49

are seeking it out, and they're ordering

37:52

it directly from ranches, or

37:54

getting it at a farmer's market, or they're buying

37:56

it from some, you know, in some cases,

37:59

you know, online. directly from ranches

38:02

even outside of their local area. So as

38:05

we, you know, as this continues

38:07

to progress, which I hope it does, this

38:10

will become more relevant. And I'm

38:12

with you. I've been a big advocate for

38:15

consuming wild-caught, sustainably

38:18

raised fish and shellfish,

38:20

particularly the cold-water fatty fish and

38:22

some of the shellfish like oysters, really

38:25

rich source of EPA and DHA. But beyond

38:27

that, also very rich source of bioavailable

38:30

protein, selenium, and many other nutrients.

38:32

So you get more than just the fatty

38:35

acids.

38:36

For any number of reasons,

38:38

many people do not consume enough

38:40

seafood

38:42

to really move the needle.

38:45

It could be because they just don't like

38:47

seafood. I've had a lot of patients in the past

38:50

who just don't care for fish or shellfish.

38:54

It could be an access issue, you know,

38:56

either financially or they live somewhere where

38:58

they just don't really have access to fresh

39:01

fish or shellfish. Some people

39:03

have environmental concerns. You know, there are lots

39:05

of reasons that people don't get enough.

39:08

And so I'm excited by

39:10

the possibility that, you know,

39:12

properly raised or

39:14

well-raised beef could actually make a contribution

39:17

for these folks. Yeah, absolutely.

39:19

And we know, Chris, from I think there's,

39:21

well, I have probably eight to ten

39:24

randomized controlled trials now that

39:26

find that if you eat pastured meat,

39:28

and these are studies not just in

39:30

beef, I think there's like two or three are in beef, there's one

39:32

study even in horse meat. But the

39:35

point being is that what they

39:37

see in various randomized controlled trials

39:40

is that the blood omega-3 profile

39:42

goes up when people eat grass-fed meat and

39:44

then the control is usually grain-fed

39:46

meat and there the blood omega-3 profile doesn't

39:48

go up. And this was already known, I

39:50

think, in the 90s, because

39:53

Sinclair was a researcher out of Australia.

39:55

He did a lot of that initial work where

39:58

he would compare

39:58

and

40:00

breastfed beef and kangaroo and even

40:02

whitefish to look at, okay, what

40:04

is the impact on the blood omega-3

40:07

profiles? And what he shows is that, yeah,

40:09

they do go up. Even with breastfed

40:11

beef and kangaroo, which is also pastured,

40:14

of course, pastured finished and it's a wild animal.

40:17

And with great fat beef, you do not see this

40:19

going up. So you do see these meaningful contribution.

40:22

I often get this sort of thrown in my

40:24

face too, that they say, oh,

40:25

it's just a few milligrams of omega-3s

40:27

that are in beef. And

40:30

if you compare it to salmon, it's meaningless. Well, yeah,

40:32

but studies would suggest that it does go up meaningfully.

40:35

And I think also, and this is something we

40:37

do not fully understand, but I think it comes back

40:39

to the food matrix, Chris, is that when

40:41

you ingest these compounds as part of

40:44

a complex food matrix with a bunch of co-factors,

40:47

typically the effect is stronger than what you would expect.

40:49

A very common

40:52

example of this is vitamin D. If we take

40:54

a pill of vitamin D

40:56

at the exact same amount as something

40:58

that a food source contains, the food source is

41:01

about five to 10 times more efficient in raising

41:03

vitamin D, probably because of the co-factors

41:05

or some preformed factors that are there.

41:07

And I suspect something similar is going

41:10

on too when

41:12

we eat

41:14

things such as DHA, EPA, and other omega-3

41:16

fatty acids in a complex food source.

41:19

Yeah, absolutely. This is another

41:22

actually Australian researcher whose work I've

41:25

really come to appreciate over the years.

41:27

I think his name's Georgie Scrinus, and he

41:29

talks about nutritionism, and

41:31

he talks about food synergy

41:34

and how important food synergy

41:36

is. And this is a great example where we

41:39

don't often think about all of the

41:41

nutrients, co-factors, enzymes

41:44

that are required to metabolize a

41:46

specific nutrient. And when

41:49

we isolate it and turn it into a supplement, you

41:51

aren't always getting those other nutrients, especially

41:53

if you're not combining them in

41:55

an intelligent way. You

41:57

use the vitamin D example, that's a classic.

42:00

one, another is

42:02

copper and iron.

42:04

I've had lots of patients over the years who

42:06

had kind of inexplicable iron deficiency

42:09

that didn't respond to iron supplementation,

42:11

and then we would test them and find out that

42:13

there were copper deficient. And copper

42:16

is required for iron metabolism.

42:18

You fix the copper deficiency, then all

42:20

of a sudden they're not iron deficient anymore.

42:23

And you have vitamin

42:25

C enhances iron absorption,

42:28

magnesium enhances the metabolism

42:31

of vitamin D and vice versa.

42:34

So there's all these really complex

42:37

synergies that are happening, many of some of which

42:39

we understand, many of which we don't. And

42:42

this

42:42

is

42:43

yet another reason that eating whole foods

42:46

or taking supplements that are whole food based

42:49

is a lot better than isolated

42:51

synthetic nutrients in general.

42:53

Yeah, I know. And it's, it's correct. And

42:56

it also sort of brings you back to like, you

42:58

know, the lipid peroxidation,

43:00

for instance, I mean, if you have more, we know this

43:02

from, from, from vitamin E, right? If you,

43:05

that's why a lot of

43:07

polyunsaturated source with polyunsaturated

43:09

fats also contain a good amount of vitamin E

43:11

because it protects the, the peroxidation

43:13

of those long chain fatty acids.

43:16

So, and something similar

43:18

is probably going on too, with when

43:20

you ingest a good amount

43:22

of phytochemicals with it. So that could be

43:24

another reason why grass-fed beef results in

43:27

further rise of that is because you're not oxidizing

43:29

those lipids as much or

43:32

because you have a bunch of phytochemicals that cause

43:34

antioxidants that come with it in the package, right?

43:37

And that is something you often don't have

43:39

in supplements. And I agree. I mean, we,

43:41

we know this from, from

43:43

countless research also on things

43:45

like turmeric and curcumin, right? Curcumin being

43:48

the main ingredient. And then we take

43:50

out, take that out and then do a,

43:53

like a total antioxidant, they're saying all of a sudden,

43:55

it's much less effective. So

43:58

you see this all the time.

43:59

Yeah, that's why I think always,

44:02

yeah, food first approach is always what I would

44:04

suggest. And, you know,

44:06

the further I get into this work also, it

44:08

makes me realize how little we do now.

44:10

We're

44:10

really scratching the surface.

44:12

Yeah, yeah. That's

44:14

both humbling and exciting

44:16

because there's a lot that we can

44:19

still understand. And that

44:21

knowledge that we're gaining has already led to some

44:23

meaningful changes in

44:25

how we look at things. Along those lines,

44:28

a lot of the research we've had so far

44:31

that's evaluating health response to

44:33

grass-fed versus grain-fed meat has been

44:35

observational in nature. And I

44:38

think anyone who's been listening to this show

44:40

for any length of time knows what the problems

44:42

are there. Certainly good

44:45

for generating hypotheses and can be

44:47

very helpful, especially when

44:50

those epidemiological trials

44:53

are well-designed in

44:55

such a way that they try to at least

44:58

attempt to control for potentially

45:00

confounding factors.

45:02

But

45:04

it's almost impossible to control for all of

45:06

them and even

45:09

know what all of them are in a particular context.

45:11

So randomized controlled trials

45:14

can be helpful because they

45:16

can take another

45:18

step in eliminating confounders

45:21

and give us more reliable data. So

45:24

last time we talked,

45:26

you dropped a hint that there might be

45:28

some randomized controlled trials

45:30

coming our way looking at this.

45:33

What how does consuming grass-fed

45:35

meat impact our health versus grain-fed

45:38

meat? So do you have any updates there?

45:40

Well, the only update is that we're

45:42

pretty deep into the study now, but

45:45

we haven't any data yet

45:48

on it. But yeah, we are doing a study, at

45:50

least a very acute study right now. So post-prandial

45:53

studies are just the people come

45:55

in, they eat an impossible burger, they eat a

45:57

feedlot beef or they eat grass-fed beef

45:59

from a. very diverse

46:02

operations. So the grass fed beef that we feed

46:04

them has about a ratio of one to one. These

46:07

feed up even at an impossible burger too as

46:09

a third arm. And I think

46:11

we've completed about 30 people now. And

46:13

I think we're completing about 40 people. So

46:15

we have 10 to go, but they basically come in three

46:17

separate occasions, they eat an impossible burger grass

46:20

fed beef or grain fed beef. We pull blood from it for five

46:22

hours. We collect the urine and

46:24

we want to see how it impacts their metabolite

46:26

profiles. Because some of these phytochemicals

46:28

you can measure pretty quickly in

46:30

a few hours afterwards. And you can measure

46:33

oxidative stress markers. Obviously we can't say anything

46:35

about long-term health. But

46:36

we're doing that initial study to give us some biomarker

46:39

data. And then we're following that up

46:41

with a longer term trial where we

46:43

feed people for

46:46

several weeks. So that's

46:48

the study that is going on. And then we do

46:50

have a study going on that is somewhat analogous

46:53

to that. It's the study

46:55

with the Green Acres Foundation. And we've

46:58

sourced all of our foods

47:00

from relative agriculture. So these are

47:02

all the plant foods and animal source foods. Or

47:05

we source the exact same produce just

47:07

from the grocery store. So non-organic produce,

47:09

which is typically produced using

47:11

more monoculture crops. So

47:15

that's also a study that we're about halfway

47:17

through with. But

47:20

yeah, randomized control astrology typically needs

47:22

enough people and enough time for

47:24

something to happen, if

47:27

there is a difference at least. And so

47:29

those are some of the major studies that

47:32

we have ongoing in terms of randomized control

47:34

trials. So unfortunately no real

47:37

big updates yet, but we are

47:39

gonna publish our work that we talked

47:41

about a thing the last time. We're gonna publish

47:44

it this year, hopefully, where we compared

47:46

a whole foods diet

47:48

versus a standard American diet.

47:51

Also trying to match for

47:53

at least food groups as much

47:55

as possible. So if someone would get some

47:58

broccoli with butter, we'd go to the grocery store. grocery store

48:00

and find the broccoli

48:02

and butter sauce with 30 more ingredients.

48:05

And so those are examples of meals and

48:08

potatoes with some olive oil or fries or things

48:10

like that, other fries to

48:13

look at if you eat the same

48:15

foods and match for protein, for

48:17

carbohydrates, for fat, for calories, because

48:20

a lot of the idea about over processed foods right

48:22

now is that the reason why you

48:25

get unhealthy is because you overeat with Kevin.

48:27

All study would suggest, well, we try to match for calories

48:29

in this study. And what we found was

48:32

is that people on the whole

48:34

foods diet got healthy quite rapidly.

48:36

They saw a reduction in triglycerides of about 30, 40 percent

48:38

in a

48:41

month. And the people

48:43

on the standard American diet, they kind of stayed the same because they

48:45

were consuming a standard American diet going

48:47

into the study. So that's

48:49

one one study that we will be publishing

48:51

this year. And it would

48:53

suggest that the problems with

48:56

all the processed foods are kind

48:58

of independent of sort of the caloric

49:01

piece or the energy piece,

49:03

but just eating them in general is problematic.

49:05

Yeah, absolutely.

49:08

Well, I look forward to

49:10

that research when it becomes available. I'll

49:12

have you back on to talk about it. And thanks so

49:14

much for joining me today. I

49:16

think this is really fascinating new

49:19

line of inquiry where we're learning so

49:21

much more about the at such

49:24

a greater level of resolution, I would

49:26

say, about the nutritional differences

49:28

between grass fed and grain fed meat.

49:31

And it's again, you know, I

49:34

think intuitively many of us suspected this,

49:36

but it's really important to have the data

49:38

that backs it up. And even within that data,

49:40

we're all learning something new, you

49:43

know, maybe some some surprises

49:45

or some things that we might not have suspected,

49:47

which is why it's so important to do the research.

49:50

Absolutely, Chris. I'm always surprised, too, about

49:52

somebody's findings that that we make. And I'm

49:55

like, oh, yeah, but I had not expected that.

49:57

But that's what keeps exciting, of course. Exactly.

49:59

Well, thanks, Stefan, again. And where can people

50:02

learn more about your work? So

50:05

on Twitter, I'm at VanVlietPhD.

50:08

So my last name and then the letters PhD. And

50:12

if you type in my name on Google

50:15

or YouTube, there's many webinars

50:17

and invited talks that I've given

50:19

over time where I

50:22

go through some of the slides on some of the work

50:24

that we talk about with Grass Fed Beef and

50:27

Google Scholar Profile. And we also always

50:30

pay for open access fees so

50:32

that our papers can be read by

50:36

anyone, really, rather than it end up being

50:38

behind a paywall and 100

50:41

scientists read it instead of a broader

50:44

audience.

50:44

I really appreciate that about your research.

50:46

And I know a lot of my citizen scientist

50:49

listeners do as well. So thank you for

50:51

doing that. I wish more researchers

50:53

did do that. I know it's not always

50:56

easy to do. So really,

50:59

props to you guys for doing

51:01

that with your papers. Thanks,

51:03

everyone, for listening. Keep sending your questions, chriskresser.com

51:06

slash podcast question. And we'll talk to you next

51:08

time. That's

51:10

the end of this episode of Revolution Health

51:12

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51:14

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51:16

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51:29

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51:38

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51:41

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51:44

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51:46

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51:49

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51:51

to stay abreast of

51:51

the latest developments. Thanks

51:54

so much for listening. Talk to you next time. Music