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living the life you want to

2:25

live. Hey

2:28

everybody, Chris Kresser here. Welcome to another episode

2:30

of Revolution Health Radio. If

2:32

you listen to this podcast, you probably think quite a bit

2:35

about how you source the food you eat, from grass-fed

2:38

or pasture-raised animal products to

2:40

organic and local produce. But

2:42

what about seafood? Historically,

2:45

we have been led to believe that

2:48

wild-caught seafood is far healthier than farm-raised

2:50

seafood. And in a lot of cases,

2:52

that's true. Now, it's definitely my bias

2:55

as well. But there

2:57

are a growing number of challenges when it

2:59

comes to wild-caught seafood, from

3:01

an increase in toxins

3:04

like mercury in the ocean

3:08

and microplastics, which are

3:10

now typically found in seafood and

3:12

studies linking microplastics to cardiovascular disease

3:15

and other health problems, to

3:17

overfishing and unsustainable

3:20

global fisheries. So

3:23

I have been doing a

3:25

lot of research into aquaculture

3:27

recently, and it turns out, as

3:30

you might expect, there have been pretty

3:32

massive changes and improvements in aquaculture in

3:34

the last few decades, in

3:36

the same way that there have been a

3:39

lot of improvements in

3:41

innovations and also just resurgence

3:43

of older, more traditional practices

3:46

in the world of regenerative

3:48

agriculture and ruminant livestock

3:51

production. So I'm

3:53

really excited to welcome James Arthur Smith

3:55

as my guest. He is a, like

3:57

me, avid lover of the- ocean

4:00

surfer Yachtsman and the

4:02

founder of a company called Cetopia. And

4:05

he has spent the last eight years

4:07

immersing himself in the aquaculture industry by

4:10

personally visiting farms, eating

4:12

the feed, the fishy, diving under the grow

4:14

out pens, and testing the harvested products in

4:17

the labs. And he is an

4:19

expert in aquaculture and he has started

4:21

a company based around

4:23

the, let's say,

4:26

version 3.0 practices of aquaculture,

4:28

which really kind of

4:31

blew my mind when I learned more about them. So

4:33

we're going to talk all about the modern

4:36

aquaculture practices that have the

4:38

potential to dramatically increase the

4:40

nutritional value of seafood in

4:43

a sustainable and potentially scalable way, the

4:46

environmental benefits of aquaculture,

4:49

how aquaculture

4:51

can reduce the presence

4:53

of toxins like mercury

4:56

and mycoplastics, how

4:58

they can support local food systems and

5:01

contribute to things like kelp

5:03

reforestation. This was a

5:05

very fascinating conversation. I learned

5:07

a lot and I hope you will too. Let's

5:09

dive in. James,

5:12

pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank

5:15

you. Thanks, Chris. Pleasure to

5:17

be here. I've been looking forward to this

5:19

conversation. You and I share a passion for

5:21

the ocean, both lifetime surfers.

5:23

I know you're also, you sail

5:27

and you, I think we've both spent

5:29

a lot of time in the ocean

5:31

over many years. And when

5:33

we were chatting for an initial

5:35

phone call we had, I mentioned that I

5:37

was struck by how many people, at least

5:40

in my circle now,

5:43

think quite a bit about sourcing when

5:45

it comes to ruminant

5:47

animals that they might eat like beef,

5:50

lamb, maybe pork, chicken,

5:54

some of the more commonly consumed meats. And

5:56

they're aware of the importance

5:58

of that. aware also

6:01

of this term, factory farming

6:03

and how or and factory

6:06

meat that is raised in factory or

6:09

confinement type of conditions

6:11

and that that's a very bad thing,

6:13

relative to pasture

6:15

raised beef, grass fed beef.

6:18

And so I think there's

6:20

an awareness in the, at

6:23

least in my audience that wild

6:26

caught fish are

6:29

better than farmed fish and that

6:31

farmed fish, I think when most

6:33

people, the image they might

6:35

get in their mind is of

6:37

salmon that's basically white, that has

6:40

almost no color and or

6:42

maybe farmed catfish or something like

6:45

that. And

6:47

it just strikes me that I think

6:49

there's a pretty big perception gap between

6:51

the reality of what's

6:53

happening now with aquaculture and what

6:55

a lot of consumers' perception is.

6:57

So that's where I'd like

7:00

to start because of course this is what

7:02

you've devoted your life to

7:04

recently and so yeah, why don't you just

7:06

start us off by telling us a little

7:08

bit about what you do and how you

7:11

got into it and then we'll go from

7:13

there. Right on. Thank you

7:15

so much. It is a

7:18

huge stigma misconception that

7:20

needs that we're endeavoring to

7:23

slowly break through and it's

7:26

difficult to bring everybody to visit farms

7:29

and take everybody swimming in an

7:31

aquaculture site that is doing it

7:34

right. But there's a vast difference

7:36

just like with beef and chicken

7:38

between industrial scale factory farms and

7:40

artisan farms that are doing it

7:42

right. The solutions are just

7:44

beautiful, beautiful places that you want to

7:47

visit, that you want to swim in,

7:49

that are creating biodiverse

7:52

habitat that are fish attracting

7:54

devices that

7:59

deserve being told being

8:01

shared. I

8:03

got into this because I was

8:06

working with a farm in the Sea of

8:09

Cortez that was producing some of the most

8:11

beautiful sushi-grade yellowtail

8:13

on the planet. These fish

8:16

were deserving of

8:19

being on any Michelin star restaurant and

8:21

were being featured on Michelin star restaurants.

8:24

But we didn't actually know

8:26

who our customers were when we were

8:29

selling product as most

8:31

farms do, especially internationally.

8:34

We're selling through an

8:37

importer and then they sell

8:39

to master distributors who sell

8:41

to other distributors who then

8:43

turn around and either

8:46

deliver to the restaurants. And then the

8:48

restaurant is

8:51

in the best case scenario educating

8:54

the chefs and the customers

8:58

about the type

9:00

of fish that they're selling and how it was farmed

9:02

or where it was farmed or the name of the

9:04

farm. But that is not normally

9:07

what happens. Generally what happened

9:09

was the restaurant kind

9:13

of got a telephone game story of

9:15

what actually they were selling half the

9:17

time they would mislabel it and

9:20

half the time they didn't even know what

9:22

they were getting because it was lost in

9:24

translation. As a farmer

9:27

endeavoring to produce a better

9:29

quality product, as a farmer

9:33

using better quality feeds,

9:35

microalgae based oils and

9:37

insect proteins as opposed

9:39

to commodity GMO soy

9:41

and corn and or

9:44

overfished bait stocks. If

9:47

there's not a direct correlation between

9:50

the end buyer and

9:52

the farmer, if there's not an

9:54

incentive, financial incentive for us to

9:57

be improving and we're just

9:59

getting negotiations, for lower prices

10:01

because XYZ Farm doing something

10:03

similar with

10:05

lower quality ingredients and

10:08

practices is selling it

10:11

cheaper. There just wasn't an incentive. So

10:13

I was at this, I had

10:15

this sort of epiphany moment that the

10:17

same principles that we see in

10:20

wine, we need to figure out how to

10:22

do that for seafood. The

10:25

estate grown, the no sulfates,

10:27

the push towards natural wines

10:29

and we see the same

10:31

thing with beef. The transition

10:33

from consumers just

10:36

wanting USDA Prime to

10:38

knowing why grass fed,

10:40

grass finished regenerative practices are important

10:42

and knowing the names of specific

10:45

farms that they want to support and

10:47

actually putting their dollars towards it that had

10:49

to happen for seafood. It was just such

10:51

a long ways off from achieving that and

10:54

we're just kind of at the

10:56

tip of the iceberg now working through

10:59

Cetopia. But that's kind of how I

11:01

got into this was I, from

11:03

a passion standpoint, from a mission

11:06

standpoint wanted to be a part

11:08

of really innovative aquaculture projects. I

11:10

was introduced to the concept of

11:13

aquaculture when I was

11:15

working at an aquarium by somebody

11:17

who planted this vision, this idea,

11:20

the inception was done

11:22

right, we can mitigate pressure

11:24

on the wild stock. We

11:26

could rehabilitate and release these

11:28

native species back into the

11:30

habitat and grow enough food

11:32

to feed our local communities.

11:35

That concept so beautifully presented to me

11:37

by the gentleman who was running the

11:39

aquarium in San Diego where I grew

11:41

up with really inspired me to get

11:43

involved with some of the best

11:46

aquaculture practices in the world. But when

11:48

I got there, I realized there just wasn't a

11:51

financial incentive for farms to

11:53

do the best that was

11:55

possible to move pilot projects

11:57

out of concept

12:01

of regenerative integrated multi-trophic

12:05

aquaculture and into commercial scale. It needed

12:07

that incentive structure and that distribution model

12:09

needed to be created. And so that's

12:11

kind of how it got started. Yeah.

12:15

And where we're at now trying to break through

12:17

those misconceptions and allow people

12:19

to vote with their dollars. Great.

12:22

Well, let's talk a little about what

12:24

aquaculture done right looks like,

12:26

because I know I learned a lot from our initial conversation.

12:30

I imagine some of the listeners

12:33

will learn a lot from this as well. So

12:37

what is a typical aquaculture farm that

12:39

you are working with look like? You

12:42

mentioned it'd be a place you'd want to swim.

12:44

It's a place you'd want to visit, maybe

12:47

similar to like a ranch that's raising pasture-raised

12:49

cattle. But

12:52

yeah, maybe just start with the general environment. Like where

12:54

are these happening? What do they look like? What

12:58

size are they? And then we can talk a little

13:00

bit about the food, which

13:03

of course then affects the fatty acid profile,

13:05

the fish and things like that. Absolutely.

13:08

Yeah. So the

13:10

cool thing is that some

13:13

of these farms are just such beautiful places. It's really

13:15

easy to talk about and I'd love to bring you

13:17

there through some of the work

13:19

we're doing. We've brought

13:21

chefs to these farms and that was

13:23

such a life-changing experience

13:26

for them to go from

13:28

the concept of where their

13:30

seafood comes from to actually knowing it

13:33

and having that same relationship that they

13:35

have with their beef or

13:37

their chicken or their tomatoes. So

13:40

the thing is, visiting a farm where you

13:42

actually get to taste the feed and you

13:44

actually can swim in the environment, the three-dimensional

13:46

experience. So to

13:48

paint a picture, there's two

13:51

different, A lot of

13:53

different types of farms, but two of

13:55

the main ones are either land-based recirculating

13:57

aquaculture systems, They're

14:00

not that beautiful because I

14:02

do. The whole thing happens

14:04

in out. Ah, On

14:06

land, in sort of an aquarium

14:08

environments. but it from an environmental

14:11

standpoint. That's cool because you're controlling

14:13

the entire thing from end to

14:15

end theory, circulating all the water.

14:17

There's no impact on the local

14:20

environment or the groundwater, your your

14:22

filtering the entire system. You control

14:24

every factor. Kind of like but

14:26

we get from like a hydroponic

14:28

systems in in agriculture cool Or

14:31

you can put them really close

14:33

to cities. They can be grown

14:35

vertically. Indoor in you know in

14:38

in large buildings. Cool.

14:40

But in some of the same challenges

14:42

that we have with sort of like

14:45

hothouse tomatoes or other hydroponic systems, you're

14:47

not necessarily in that terroir if you

14:49

really want that. The terroir what are

14:51

what we refer to in the ocean

14:53

isn't in as Mare works. You want

14:55

the minerality of that water to be.

14:59

Representative. In the water, That

15:01

in those fish and shellfish in that seafood.

15:03

So when you go into it. Ocean

15:05

farming. You. Get the

15:08

opportunity to use this beautiful resource

15:10

that we have which is the

15:12

ocean done right? A

15:16

farm. Has a very

15:18

low density of or in the ratio

15:20

of system water. so you want a

15:22

lot of space. So the best firms

15:24

that we work with have a ratio

15:27

generally of around. Ninety.

15:29

Eight percent water and to present fish

15:31

and that ratio is monitored and tracks.

15:34

So as fish grow and they get

15:36

bigger it's there is a a process

15:38

of moving the larger fish into a

15:40

different site or different net. So open

15:43

net and ah farms that are in

15:45

deep water. Low density in areas that

15:47

have a lot of current so the

15:50

sighting of a location is super important.

15:52

So in a bay where there's a

15:54

lot of stagnant water it's very very

15:57

different and a lots and has. A

15:59

lot lower care the city that

16:01

environment as a lot of current,

16:03

a lot of title fluctuation, a

16:05

lot of open ocean, longshore current,

16:07

or an offshore deepwater canyon that

16:09

has a natural sort of back

16:11

events and flushing effect. So. If

16:14

you've ever been to the Monterey

16:16

aquarium and you see like the

16:18

the large to know swimming around

16:20

their imagine swimming in that so

16:22

when you swim inside the inside

16:24

of him huge open net pen.

16:28

Farm. You have the opportunity little

16:30

be swimming amongst thousands of fish that

16:32

naturally or schooling around and have enough

16:34

room if they want to come in

16:36

close and and specs or go all

16:38

the way to the bottom of a

16:40

pen that could be sixty to eighty

16:42

feet deep and there's so much room

16:44

that you won't even see them though.

16:46

You know depending on the clarity of

16:48

the water you have there is these

16:50

pens are so big and. In

16:52

the best example in the best

16:54

days that the water clarity is

16:57

so much that he just swimming

16:59

in this magical place and then.

17:02

The. Very best. Farms are

17:04

parrying multiple species so

17:06

you can have. Ah

17:09

in that penned less safe with Sam

17:11

and you can have in addition to

17:14

Sam and you could have a cleaner

17:16

fish like a lump sucker. Lump suckers

17:18

in nature are going and cleaning any

17:20

sort of parasites off of fish. So

17:23

some people are concerned about sea lice

17:25

which is all. wild salmon have a

17:27

concern with sea lice but depending on

17:29

the density the opportunity for the sea

17:32

lice to proliferate fat entire school or

17:34

or cause disease spread is very different.

17:36

Men in a load and see environment.

17:39

Than you pair it with cleaner

17:41

fish like rostered long suckers that

17:43

have a natural ah balance of

17:46

these these organisms And then outside

17:48

of the pens you have to

17:51

help and selfish and working symbiotically

17:53

all of us and you have.

17:56

An. Ecosystem that works in

17:58

concert with this. So

18:00

in nature there's no such

18:02

thing as waste fish poop

18:04

if is. Full. Of

18:06

antibiotics is definitely not good for the

18:09

environment, but if you have a clean

18:11

feed. Know. And about x know

18:13

hormones new Dm I was what is

18:15

Fish poop? it is. Super

18:17

food for so many different

18:20

organisms. Some of those organisms

18:22

like Kelp and Selfish are

18:24

going to all the sudden

18:26

have a nutrient rich environment

18:29

so. The. Interesting thing

18:31

about the evolution of. Our.

18:33

Relationship of the ocean and integrated

18:35

multidrug A guy who culture or

18:37

that the or poly culture as

18:40

pallister monoculture is that you can

18:42

now. Grow. Organisms

18:44

like help and selfish

18:46

in low nutrient waters

18:49

like. Very. Far

18:51

offshore or previous dead zones

18:53

where there wasn't enough nutrients

18:55

to support life Like selfish

18:57

and help when you now

18:59

pair them with a predatory

19:01

fish at pooping in the

19:03

water. Very similar to the

19:05

way to tattle distribute nutrients

19:07

into the soil, you can

19:09

actually reinvigorate these environments and

19:11

create new habitat that not

19:13

only are going to feed

19:15

the kelp and selfish but

19:17

they treat habitat structure that

19:19

increases biodiversity. For the surrounding areas

19:21

as well and other said this

19:24

sort of fisher tracking devices. Is.

19:27

Is is showing.

19:30

Increase levels of biodiversity for the

19:32

entire ecosystem around their. Yeah,

19:35

that's that's really fascinating in some

19:38

way that reminds me a little

19:40

bit of like rotational grazing and

19:42

went jaw thousand and others are

19:44

doing and have been advocating for

19:46

some time. Where you know instead

19:48

of just raising cattle only on

19:50

the pastor, you do their rotating

19:52

sick and another ruminants and they're

19:54

getting. Benefits. and

19:56

synergy from having different animals

19:59

co have in the

20:01

same area on land. So it sounds like

20:03

that's what some of the better aquaculture farmers

20:06

are doing and seeing like you mentioned

20:08

like fish poop is great food and

20:10

you can get a lot of

20:12

benefits from doing that and that's

20:14

of course what would be happening in a

20:16

more natural ecosystem right? Yeah

20:19

very much it's it's

20:21

an evolution from monoculture

20:23

farming which you know if

20:26

you look at the aquaculture industry

20:28

it hasn't been around that long

20:30

really the first commercial aquaculture farms

20:33

got funded in the 70s

20:35

and their funding came primarily from

20:37

Big Ag and the exact same

20:40

business model was implemented but

20:43

we know that there's challenges and externalities

20:45

that are not being factored in monocultures.

20:49

When we evolve from monoculture

20:51

to polyculture it introduces

20:54

complexity that is

20:57

intimidating and challenging

21:00

to the existing sort

21:02

of structure and for

21:05

example if you're using the same 100 acre

21:08

concession to grow three

21:10

different species instead of just one

21:12

species are you giving up the

21:14

opportunity to you know are you

21:16

reducing your total production and

21:19

do you have to develop a

21:21

value for those other species

21:24

and those are challenges that farms

21:27

have these are real challenges that have

21:29

to be factored in so how do

21:31

we place value on those other either

21:35

ecosystem services that the shellfish

21:37

and kelp are providing or is

21:40

there a way to actually place

21:42

value on the farm brand and

21:44

the story that they're doing something

21:46

better cleaner more

21:48

nutritionally dense or

21:51

can you also derive

21:53

some actual harvest value from

21:55

the products that Are that are

21:57

derived from those those other organisms in.

22:00

But. Yeah, it is very similar

22:03

to what we've been. Seeing.

22:05

Happen with the transition out

22:08

of us. Monoculture.

22:10

Crops to regenerative, ag

22:12

and rotational grazing are

22:14

just you. We.

22:17

Have to be humble. Stewards

22:19

of the Ocean and we can't

22:21

see approach it from the mindset

22:23

there were gonna farm at the

22:26

same way that we farmed Atlanta

22:28

and and and get a different

22:30

outcome because industrial scale monoculture practices

22:32

with only a value placed on

22:34

one end product have. A.

22:37

Negative impact on the environment and they're

22:39

really just designed to benefit the shareholders

22:41

and not a surly even and consumer.

22:44

Yeah, that's it. Fascinating, and it makes

22:46

some sense to me that you know

22:48

that that sort of same principle of

22:51

creating a similar ecosystem that you would

22:53

have in the wild is what you'd

22:55

wanna do to create the best conditions

22:58

for agriculture. This is this for regenerative

23:00

farm and along the same lines. I

23:02

imagine that's also true for what you've

23:05

what what the fish or sad. Just

23:08

like in the case of ruminants,

23:10

we know that ruminants pretty much

23:12

eat grass and forage and so

23:14

that's you get the best results

23:16

in terms of the quality of

23:18

food when they when that food

23:20

intake and from their natural environment

23:22

is is replicated in of course

23:24

you can sometimes up to supplement

23:26

that ah strategically. So how does

23:28

that work with aquaculture? Like what's

23:30

the difference with these kinds of

23:32

aquaculture? Three point our farm to

23:34

see well yeah, what they're doing.

23:36

Ah versus. What some of those

23:38

earlier agriculture farms were doing? And

23:41

how does that actually affect the

23:43

nutritional quality of the fish? Outlets

23:46

Everything Just like the says her

23:48

minute animals. She wanted them to

23:51

have that sort of very natural

23:53

diet not just been said, corn

23:55

and soy and. and

23:58

if we look at often cultures bit different

24:00

though because most of the fish that

24:02

we really crave are carnivores. And

24:05

so in nature they're going to

24:08

be out there foraging around heating,

24:10

let's just say sardines and anchovies.

24:12

And the Omega-3s

24:15

that we love in

24:17

salmon or tuna for example, they don't

24:19

actually get produced by the fish. They

24:21

don't get produced by the sardines and

24:23

anchovies. They get

24:25

produced by microalgae and then

24:27

it bioaccumulates into the fish.

24:30

So fish farming 1.0, we

24:33

just took sardines and anchovies or any

24:35

other sort of bait fish and

24:37

ground them up and fed

24:40

them to the fish. And

24:43

they got the Omega-3s. They had

24:45

pretty much the same thing. In

24:47

some instances you even saw elevated

24:49

levels because they were in this

24:51

sort of controlled environment being able

24:54

to have a consistent amount of

24:56

food throughout their life cycle. The

24:59

challenge is that to

25:01

feed a growing demand for

25:03

seafood, we can't just keep

25:06

catching wild bait fish. It's

25:09

not sustainable to increasingly produce more

25:11

salmon through farms and be relying

25:13

on the same source of bait

25:15

fish. So there

25:18

was a big push globally

25:20

to reduce the impact of

25:22

aquaculture from bait fish. And

25:27

the savior was our

25:29

industrialized food system in

25:32

corn and soy. And

25:34

the subsidized GMO corn and soy

25:36

for a lot of farms was

25:39

pretty inexpensive and

25:41

decent growth rates. The

25:44

complications, however, is that you're

25:47

getting an increased level of Omega-6s as

25:50

opposed to the Omega-3s. It

25:54

also causes inflammation in the fish

25:56

which increases their potential for Infection.

26:00

When disease outbreaks, did you know

26:03

you have entire populations in these

26:05

high density farms that can collapse

26:07

so we're lollies? Farmstead was the

26:09

nope, sorry, easy preventative antibiotics in

26:12

the feed. I'm.

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27:43

we're at right now as you

27:46

can has highlighted as can have

27:48

three point now is a reconsideration

27:50

of what the fish actually needed

27:52

one or things they really need

27:54

is those omega threes and so

27:56

writing that balance of a mega

27:58

threes instead it and feeding them

28:00

sardines and anchovies, instead of feeding them corn

28:03

and soy. Our

28:05

preferred farm partners today are

28:07

actually using microalgae directly to

28:10

produce those oils and insect

28:12

proteins to get that

28:14

ratio of fats and proteins at

28:16

various stages of their life cycle.

28:18

And that provides a, in

28:21

many cases, a level of omega-3s, particularly

28:23

EPA and DHA, that are higher than

28:25

you would find in commodity farms, and

28:27

often even higher than you would find

28:29

in wild-caught seafood, in a

28:31

manner that is actually scalable.

28:35

So we can, through a

28:37

controlled feed, get a predictable

28:39

controlled outcome most of the time. You're

28:42

still working in nature, you're still farming, and

28:44

there's always gonna be challenges. Environment is continuing

28:46

to change and things of that nature. But

28:49

we are seeing elevated levels

28:51

of EPA, DHA, when fish

28:53

are fed a diet of

28:56

EPA-rich omega-3 oils from

29:00

microalgae. And that is what

29:03

the phytoplankton and

29:06

zooplankton, where they originally

29:08

got it from. And now we're actually just

29:10

in this process of trying to get

29:13

enough of this sort of

29:15

industrial-grown EPA and

29:17

DHA, and new innovative approaches

29:19

to farming, fermenting and extracting

29:22

those oils, and different

29:24

feed stocks. Is it only

29:26

gonna be microalgae, or can we also

29:28

use macroalgae like seaweeds and kelps?

29:31

This is the stage that we're at today with

29:33

the most innovative farms that are

29:36

looking, not just to produce commodity salmon,

29:38

that'll probably always be a market for

29:40

that, just like there's gonna probably be

29:42

a market for commodity chicken and beef,

29:45

but the farms that are really trying to optimize for the

29:47

best products, that have

29:49

the most nutrient-dense food

29:52

and producing microalgae oils

29:54

and insect proteins and other sort

29:56

of alternative proteins, mycelium proteins, things

29:58

of that nature. that are

30:01

in alignment with the sort of macronutrients that

30:06

these organisms need for them to be healthy

30:08

and for us to be healthy is where

30:10

we're at today. And yeah,

30:12

so feed is critically important. What goes

30:14

in, you know, we are what our

30:16

food eats and it couldn't

30:18

be sure that with carnivorous animals. There

30:20

are some exceptions, you know, to

30:23

the rule, not all farms, not all

30:26

farmed fish are carnivores. There's a handful

30:28

that are herbivores. And

30:30

it's a little bit easier with them, but specifically

30:32

with carnivores. We are

30:34

what they're eating eats. And if

30:38

you don't want a, you know, a

30:40

bunch of Omega-6s and seed oils, then

30:43

we have to help farms

30:46

justify the cost for this more expensive

30:48

feed. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I

30:50

would pay for it every day.

30:53

I don't want cornflakes in my

30:55

salmon. I want, you

30:57

know, that beautiful, rich bioavailable Omega-3s.

31:00

Absolutely. And it's, what's

31:03

great about that, as you alluded to, and

31:06

this is a good segue into the question of

31:08

sustainability, is

31:10

when you, if you're talking about doing

31:12

this at scale, then your

31:15

insect protein and microalgae is

31:17

probably much more scalable and

31:20

sustainable than, you know,

31:22

feeding the smaller fish that

31:24

those larger fish might eat.

31:28

And then there's also the question

31:30

of toxin accumulation as

31:33

well, which is a big

31:35

one. So let's first talk about that,

31:39

since that's kind of, I think, related to

31:41

feed and just how the fish are raised.

31:43

And then we can talk about

31:46

sustainability and scalability, because

31:48

another big concern, as you well

31:50

know, that people have about eating

31:52

seafood right now is just that

31:54

it's not sustainable, that global fisheries

31:56

are under a lot of pressure

31:59

and they wonder. This. Might be

32:01

good. this sounds are good but is

32:03

is this like you know how sustainable

32:06

is as and could it actually eventually

32:08

make make a dad? Are you know

32:10

in seafood their total seafood consumption? Yeah

32:13

hi. There. I look forward

32:15

to the sherry map and let's

32:17

let's address into a toxin accumulation.

32:19

Yeah, just like So just like

32:21

the. Cp the Ha

32:24

is not actually produced by the

32:26

fish on the it is by

32:28

accumulating through their diet. Other things

32:31

are also by a team lane

32:33

and binding to those fatty acids

32:35

and those other things that I'm

32:37

referring to our toxins that are

32:40

in the environment. and unfortunately from.

32:42

P. C B Center for dumped

32:44

in the ocean ah by it

32:47

industry in other A huge. The.

32:49

article came out in the L

32:51

A Times this week about that

32:54

aren't radioactive elements. Mercury.

32:56

which is up over three hundred percent

32:58

in the oceans to micro plastics which

33:00

have been quantified in. More

33:02

than twenty five percent of

33:05

seafood. The amount of. Pollutants.

33:08

That we as humans and

33:10

industry have put into our

33:12

lakes and rivers that all

33:14

go down stream and the

33:16

ocean. Is

33:19

unfortunately just. It

33:21

it's not out of sight out

33:23

of my it is particular eating

33:26

back up into our food system

33:28

and is now quantifiably in the

33:30

Xo playing ten and a phytoplankton

33:33

and in the fish that we

33:35

buy one who are buying wild

33:37

caught seafood or. even farmer

33:39

a seafood that. Still, In

33:42

many assesses continues to use beta

33:44

fish or trimmings. It's

33:47

quantify will you can see it

33:49

and lab tests we've we've seen

33:51

ah these this for years. fortunately

33:54

you can avoid a lot a lot

33:56

of that stuff by using the my

33:58

for algae feeds or the

34:01

soldier fly proteins because

34:03

you're actually stepping out

34:05

of that trophic

34:07

cycle. You're actually going right to the

34:09

base layer and producing it in a

34:11

clean environment. So we

34:15

today are, not

34:18

to talk too much about what we're doing with utopia,

34:20

but as an example,

34:22

we can quantify the

34:26

presence of mercury in

34:29

fish that are fed on this sort

34:31

of diet. And it will be 10

34:33

times lower than a fish

34:35

that was eating bait fish.

34:38

And that's simply

34:40

a matter of whether or not

34:42

the fish are bioaccumulated and that

34:45

bio magnification that happens. If there

34:47

is one part

34:49

of mercury in a

34:52

piece of, in a

34:54

sardine, in a mackerel eats

34:56

a thousand sardines, and

34:59

then a salmon

35:02

comes along and eats a hundred mackerel,

35:05

that salmon now has bioaccumulated all

35:07

over that mercury. And the further

35:10

up the food chain you go,

35:12

you know, whether it's tuna or

35:14

shark or whales, the bio magnification

35:17

goes up considerably. We,

35:20

with the most innovative farms now,

35:23

completely removed ourselves from that and

35:25

we're going straight to the microalgae.

35:28

And as a result, there's just so

35:31

much lower levels of mercury

35:34

that it's magnitudes lower than the

35:36

FDA's guidelines. It's to the point

35:38

where my wife, while

35:40

pregnant, ate sushi

35:42

grade seafood throughout

35:45

her entire pregnancy in her third

35:47

trimester without concerns of mercury or

35:50

parasites for that matter. We could talk

35:52

about that on a different subject, but

35:54

that, you know, it also goes for

35:56

microplastics. We're now testing seafood that is

35:58

raised on this diet and showing zero.

36:00

micro-detectable microplastics. If

36:05

you compare that to what's coming out of

36:07

the UC Davis studies showing microplastics in all,

36:09

in 25% of seafood, it's

36:11

very, very different. You've

36:18

probably seen those studies that came out

36:20

recently about the association between microplastics and

36:22

coronary disease and heart attacks. It is

36:25

in all of our food systems. Unless

36:27

food is being produced in a clean

36:29

controlled environment, it is going to be

36:31

susceptible to whatever is in the wild

36:34

environment. It's the same reason we don't

36:36

eat wild pigeons. If

36:39

you go to a Michelin star restaurant, you

36:41

could probably get squab and you're

36:43

going to eat it and be like, wow,

36:46

that's delicious. A wild pigeon growing

36:48

outside is not going to be

36:50

consumed because its exposure to whatever

36:52

is in that environment is potentially going to cause

36:54

it to be accumulated

36:57

whatever is in the environment. Controlled

37:01

inputs, controlled outputs for the most part

37:03

is the name of the game. That's

37:05

why we farm. That's why we have

37:07

evolved from hunter and gatherers. Not

37:09

that it was. We evolved just

37:11

to get away from toxins, but in

37:14

order to have a predictable outcome, we're

37:17

trying our best to replicate these

37:19

processes over and over again. Clean

37:22

inputs, clean outputs, clean water,

37:24

clean feed, clean fish. In

37:29

a perfect world, this

37:31

wouldn't be the case. We would be

37:33

able to source food from the wild

37:35

environment and it would not be laden

37:37

with toxins. Unfortunately, that's not the world

37:39

we live in anymore as all of

37:41

the recent research that I've been sharing

37:44

in my newsletter

37:46

and the studies that you just

37:48

mentioned, whether we're talking about phthalates

37:50

or BPA or

37:52

microplastics or glyphosate or

37:55

so many other organic and inorganic

37:59

topics. toxins have now infiltrated

38:02

the food supply to the point where you just

38:04

really can't even avoid them. If

38:06

you're getting some exposure one way or the other,

38:08

the only thing

38:10

we can do at this point is to minimize

38:12

our exposure and also then to eat as

38:15

nutrient-dense a diet as possible because

38:17

those nutrients improve detoxification and help

38:20

us to combat the

38:22

exposure to these toxins.

38:25

Exactly. Those micronutrients

38:28

are also co-evolved

38:30

for the most part. A lot of

38:33

this, whether it's selenium or whatnot, there

38:35

are really cool partnerships that we've seen

38:38

in seafood. It's not to

38:40

say that there's no such

38:42

thing as a benefit from eating

38:44

seafood or wild seafood, but

38:47

the data is

38:49

making it harder and harder to make those justifications.

38:52

A good example, you just mentioned selenium, but 16

38:54

of the 25 highest sources

38:56

of selenium are ocean fish

38:58

typically. Selenium

39:01

is one of those nutrients that

39:03

helps with detoxification tremendously. We're

39:06

not saying obviously don't eat

39:08

fish, but make sure that you're maximizing

39:11

the intake of beneficial nutrients and minimizing

39:13

the intake of toxins. Precisely. Let's talk

39:15

about what this could look like in

39:18

10, 20, maybe 50 years. There's

39:23

been a lot of dire articles in the media over

39:27

the past decade with titles like The End

39:29

of Fish and to the point where if

39:31

you have a kid or maybe you're

39:33

at the point where

39:37

you're having grandkids now, you're wondering if they're going to

39:40

be eating seafood when they're

39:42

your age, given the state of

39:44

global fisheries. Speak

39:46

to the sustainability and scalability of

39:48

the methods that you're talking about

39:51

now. Is this something that will

39:53

always be boutique and specialized or

39:55

is there potential for real

39:58

scale here? I think

40:00

it's important to first

40:03

acknowledge that there's a finite

40:06

resource of wild-caught seafood and

40:08

that global gross production

40:11

plateaued and has not increased since

40:13

2002. So we're

40:15

not going to find a new source of wild-caught

40:18

seafood. Somebody I was talking to

40:20

in the industry was like wild-caught

40:22

seafood is over. It's done. The

40:25

industry, obviously it's not. There's still a lot of

40:27

oil in the ground and we're going to continue

40:29

to mine it. There's

40:31

just too much value in it. I

40:33

just personally as a business and

40:35

as a business owner, I just

40:38

don't want to partake in that. I think there's enough

40:40

demand already on wild-caught seafood. I

40:42

think what is lacking at the moment

40:44

is education around

40:47

better solutions. What

40:50

are the best solutions that are actually scalable?

40:52

What is the future state going to look

40:54

like? And absolutely

40:58

very scalable. The difference

41:00

is it takes

41:02

time. It's to learn

41:05

how to work with nature in

41:08

doing integrated multi-tropic aquaculture, the complexity.

41:12

You don't just go in there and just

41:14

own nature with the traditional model of monoculture.

41:16

We're going to just farm the land and

41:18

the ocean the same way we've done with

41:22

our Cargill experience,

41:24

whatever it is. The

41:28

nuance is if we

41:30

mimic nature and look at

41:32

how nature has created abundant

41:35

ecosystems and we model

41:37

that, we can actually move

41:39

into areas that we didn't

41:41

previously farm or cultivate. The

41:45

opportunity to move seafood

41:47

production into integrated multi-tropic

41:50

aquaculture offshore opens

41:52

up vast opportunities to

41:54

produce immensely scalable ecosystems

41:57

and farming practices that

42:00

could absolutely feed global demand. I

42:03

mean, the estimates was it would take less than 5% of

42:07

coastline to produce more protein than

42:09

the world needs. So that

42:11

is just coastline, but we have 70% of the planet is

42:15

covered by water. If you go offshore, we have

42:18

so much more area and this

42:21

is a three-dimensional farming

42:23

methodology. It's very different

42:25

than on land. So the

42:28

challenge is, however, though, I

42:30

don't currently work with any integrated

42:33

multi-trophic aqua-mulifer farms in the

42:35

United States because there's none,

42:37

there are none. We have

42:39

not allowed aqua-culture farming to

42:41

be, a finfish to be

42:43

permitted or a multi-trophic farm and to be

42:45

permitted in the United States. The

42:49

most innovative farms that I work with are

42:51

in other countries, whether that's Mexico or Peru

42:54

or in Europe, the

42:57

state of our evolution and

43:00

the relationship to seafood in America is

43:04

still evolving because we still have some

43:06

wild-caught seafood. There's a couple of

43:09

examples of seafood production

43:11

in like the Northeast or everywhere

43:13

where there was a huge industry,

43:16

whether it was herring or cod,

43:19

where it was thought to be infinitely

43:23

scalable or infinite source of

43:25

food and all of those

43:27

examples, they eventually collapse and

43:29

entire industries collapsed. We still

43:31

have some wild-caught

43:34

seafood in Alaska and a couple of

43:36

their places that we're harvesting and

43:38

we think that we can continue to sustain

43:41

those but in Mexico and a couple of

43:43

their places, they unfortunately

43:45

already overfished to the

43:47

point where entire

43:50

communities, cities and industries collapsed

43:54

And the government was forced to

43:56

invest in aquaculture as the only

43:58

way to produce. Skill Level:

44:01

sustainable. Condom. Me for

44:03

those communities. So in some

44:05

ways by overfishing they serve

44:07

advanced technology and and social

44:09

adoption whereas in the U

44:11

S Ah we see. Thus

44:14

far with only permitted on shore

44:16

of land based research lean on

44:19

which a citizen offshore mother Juri

44:21

our quarters since outset of Hawaii

44:24

actually as Italy's exception have not

44:26

yet been have permitted so it

44:28

is scale of it's just a

44:31

a matter of time and energy.

44:34

To. House. And

44:36

and adoption of these practices.

44:39

In the United States in the interim.

44:43

There. Is communities that are at our

44:45

the forefront of this that are that

44:47

are reaping the benefits but damn near

44:49

future the journey and it's or I

44:51

do believe though that. If

44:54

we look at the ocean, the planet

44:56

the blue planet that's covered by by

44:58

water that has that in all of

45:00

our history came from the ocean. If

45:02

we can. Just.

45:05

Respectfully. Endeavor

45:08

to replicate and or

45:10

even more specifically, ninety,

45:12

the replicators to catalyze

45:15

the ecosystem services suit

45:17

to support abundant. Ecosystems

45:20

in a way that we can

45:22

harvest from those through integrate a

45:24

multitude of a doc which systems

45:26

that promote biodiversity we were absolutely

45:28

have a scale of all food

45:30

system and and seafood can. Provide.

45:33

An abundance of protein for this planet.

45:35

We just. It's

45:38

just a matter of the of

45:40

will and timing I guess. I'm.

45:43

Optimistic? Yeah, I mean.

45:47

I am to in and we have to

45:49

be like it's either that or just give

45:51

up with doesn't seem like a good option

45:54

and I like is my name was regenerate.

45:56

Certain that understand than a mars is one

45:58

we've got. Dynamite,

46:00

it's the the same is true

46:03

with Regenerative Agriculture. You get the

46:05

same questions about scale, ability and

46:07

stability and I think is the

46:09

answer is a semi are like

46:12

this is where it's a paradigm

46:14

shift and those don't happen overnight

46:16

in ah that's more like turning

46:19

and ocean tanker rough on them

46:21

as the bout. You know the

46:23

have massive systems in place at

46:26

need to change and you have

46:28

also vested interests that. Don't want

46:30

necessarily don't want those changes and so

46:32

the I think it's amazing work to

46:35

do. You guys are doing tell people

46:37

where they can learn a little bit

46:39

more about see Tell P I N

46:41

n Order and try some of your

46:43

first which I have I have tried

46:45

and it's unbelievable like it's some of

46:48

the best says have ever eaten am

46:50

and you can see the quality in

46:52

the color of the Sas into the

46:54

test, texture and taste. It's

46:57

pretty remarkable. So yeah, my tell people

46:59

how they can find out more about

47:01

Citabria. Thank. You Chris

47:03

A I think it's worth noting that

47:06

the flavor and texture and the color

47:08

is so different than what we traditionally

47:10

get. Because in order to do this

47:12

right, we have to cut out a

47:15

bunch of middleman and in order to

47:17

really benefit Farm for an advocate of

47:19

us middleman. And.

47:22

Answer your benefit of that is that

47:24

the quality in a product that you're

47:26

getting his system much shorter supply chain

47:28

and it's just a better experience because

47:31

sea. Fish. or

47:33

in in many ways are different

47:35

from the handling efficient very different

47:37

than the handling of meat from

47:39

cattle for example there's more water

47:41

content and fish and if you

47:43

talking see she ate fish you

47:45

have to be super careful with

47:47

the ice crystals form inside a

47:49

that fish and and every time

47:51

that fish fluctuate and temperature it

47:53

has an effect on the texture

47:55

and flavor of that fish so

47:57

the sure the supply chain the

48:00

fewer changes in temperature

48:02

and you definitely don't want your fish

48:04

being frozen and refrozen more than once

48:07

because that's how you

48:09

get fishy fish. So the

48:11

bottom line is the cetopia.fish

48:13

is the URL. Cetopia.fish

48:16

people can go on there and choose if

48:19

they want to stick with the

48:21

basic salmon box or which has a

48:23

variety of different types of salmon and

48:25

salmonoids like steelhead trout and char. Depending

48:28

on the season some of these farms are kind

48:30

of small and they not year round harvest so

48:33

it's sort of slow food in that way. It's

48:35

not everything all the time. There's

48:38

a variety box that has fish and shellfish

48:40

and there's an all white fish box. Sushi

48:44

grade options that you can just slice and

48:46

eat with a little bit of yuzukosho and

48:49

yeah. Anyways cetopia.fish is where people can

48:51

order and they can learn about all

48:53

the specific farms. You can see QR

48:55

codes on every single product to see

48:59

photos and videos of the specific farm and

49:01

where it's at on the map and who

49:03

the farmers are and what's in the feed

49:05

and what specific farming practices

49:08

and you can download the certificate

49:10

of analysis quantifying the parts per

49:12

billion of mercury and

49:14

microplastics for every product.

49:17

So yeah

49:19

cetopia.fish. Amazing. Thank

49:22

you James. Be part of the solution. Vote

49:24

with your fork three times

49:26

a day. Love it. All

49:30

right well thanks again for coming on

49:32

the show and thanks for the phenomenal

49:34

work you're doing in this area and

49:36

all the listeners thank you for listening.

49:38

Keep sending your questions to chriscrusher.com/podcast question

49:40

and we'll see you next time. That's

49:44

the end of this episode of Revolution Health

49:46

Radio. If you appreciate the

49:48

show and want to help me create a healthier

49:50

and happier world please head over to iTunes and

49:52

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49:57

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49:59

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50:01

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50:11

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50:13

Crests or L A C. I

50:15

post a lot of articles in

50:17

research, though I do throughout the

50:19

week there that never made it

50:21

to the blogger podcast so it's

50:23

a great way to stay abreast

50:25

of the latest developments. Thanks so

50:27

much for listening talking next time.