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1:51

Everybody. Crisscross or here. welcome to another

1:54

episode of Revolution Health Radio. If you follow

1:56

my work for any length of time, you'll

1:58

know that I'm an advocate. of omnivorous

2:01

diets that include animal products.

2:03

I think research and evolutionary

2:06

biology indicate that that is

2:08

the best option for most people. And

2:11

I've spent a lot of time over

2:13

my career debunking the myths and misconceptions

2:15

surrounding a 100% plant-based diet. I've

2:19

had five appearances on the Joe Rogan Show,

2:21

specifically on this topic, speaking

2:24

with Joe directly and debating various

2:26

people. I've written tens of articles

2:29

on my website, had several podcast

2:32

episodes with people in

2:34

the regenerative agriculture movement,

2:36

nutritional specialists, talking about

2:38

the advantages and

2:41

the higher bioavailability of nutrients in

2:44

animal products in general, and so

2:46

many other topics

2:49

in this world. So I'm really

2:51

excited to welcome Jane Buxton as my

2:54

guest today. She's a

2:56

Canadian-British author who

2:58

is an active supporter of the Real

3:00

Food Campaign and Public Health collaboration, and

3:02

she has written a phenomenal book called

3:05

The Great Plant-Based Con, which

3:08

provides one of the best overviews

3:10

of all of the issues surrounding

3:13

a plant-based diet, not

3:15

just nutrition, but also the environmental

3:19

and ethical and moral arguments. So

3:21

it's a fantastic primer for

3:23

somebody that's less familiar with this

3:25

topic. It's also got

3:27

a lot of new recent research, so it's

3:30

a great read even if you are familiar

3:32

with this topic. And in this

3:34

show, we're gonna talk about a lot

3:36

of what's in the book, the discussion

3:38

around nutrients, anti-nutrients, protein

3:40

quality, different biologic

3:42

needs, and evidence of

3:45

harm from plant-based diets. But

3:47

we're also gonna talk about

3:50

the environmental arguments, methane and

3:52

emissions, land use, biodiversity, regenerative

3:54

agriculture, and just

3:56

touch briefly on the ethical and moral

3:58

arguments as well. So I really

4:00

enjoyed this conversation, I think you will. Two,

4:03

let's dive in. Jane,

4:05

it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome.

4:08

Thank you very much. It's a great pleasure to be here.

4:11

So you and I share something

4:14

in common, which is a skepticism

4:16

around the benefits, both nutritional and

4:18

environmental, of a plant-based diet. I've

4:21

had the pleasure of going on Joe Rogan's

4:24

show five different times to talk about this

4:26

and debate various people on this topic. So

4:29

of course, when I saw your book come out

4:31

and read it, I wanted to have a conversation

4:33

with you. So what led you to

4:36

write this book in the first place, given

4:38

all of the crazy noise there is out

4:40

there on this topic? Well,

4:42

actually, your appearance on Joe Rogan debating,

4:44

or if you could call it that,

4:47

because he didn't really follow the

4:49

rules of debate, James Wilkes about

4:51

game changers, was

4:54

one of the things that prompted me

4:56

to think seriously about this. Around

4:59

that time, I had already been thinking, this

5:01

debate is really very

5:04

one-sided. It's out of control.

5:07

There was the narrative in favor of

5:09

plant-based was getting so strong. It is

5:11

sort of mid to late 2019. Game

5:15

changers came out. You and other

5:18

people debated the

5:20

merits of that film and did

5:22

a great job, I think. But

5:26

I still kept hearing people around me,

5:28

particularly young people, saying that they really

5:30

thought there was something to that. And

5:34

it worried me as a mother,

5:36

as a young people and

5:38

kids in their 20s, as a

5:40

concerned citizen, I thought

5:43

we really have to pump up the noise on the

5:45

other side. We have to

5:47

get some facts on the table. So

5:49

I took

5:51

what was at the time a kind of

5:53

personal research project and decided to put it

5:55

into a book. And

5:58

funnily enough, my agent, when I saw it, first took in

6:00

the proposal, he said, because I have an

6:03

agent from previous work, he

6:05

said, I don't think the world

6:07

is ready for this book. And

6:09

then he said, and I'm not sure you can write it. So

6:12

he said, go away and prove to me that you can write

6:14

it. So I then went back and did 130 page

6:17

proposals, full of quite

6:19

a lot of the facts that eventually ended up in the

6:21

book. And he was just

6:24

gobsmacked. He'd never heard any of this

6:26

stuff before, which of course, nobody in the

6:28

reading mainstream media would have heard it. So

6:31

anyway, he gave it the green light and

6:33

there we go. Project was born. Great.

6:37

Well, I'm sure we have lots to talk

6:39

about. But let's start with just a

6:41

broader review from your perspective of why plant-based,

6:44

exclusively plant-based diets are not

6:46

the best option for human

6:48

health. I

6:50

think of this in terms of three

6:53

or four key main points.

6:55

So I think about nutrients,

6:58

anti-nutrient, protein

7:00

and ultra-processed food. And

7:03

each of those topics influences

7:07

the question of whether or not a plant-based

7:09

diet is best for health. So if

7:12

we start with nutrients, I think it's

7:14

very clear that animal-sourced

7:16

foods have certain nutrients, which are

7:18

simply lacking in pure

7:21

plant-based diets. So things

7:23

like preform vitamin A,

7:25

DHA, EPA, B12

7:27

is a big one. And I know you've written a

7:30

lot about B12. I learned a lot from

7:32

your pieces on that. Hemire

7:34

and taurine, you know, you could go on

7:36

and list it. And then there are

7:38

other nutrients which are maybe found in

7:40

plants, but in not the right form or

7:43

not in the quantities that we might

7:45

want. So I'm thinking

7:48

about iodine and zinc, leucine,

7:50

lysine, those kinds of things. So

7:53

a lot of these nutrients are things that people

7:55

don't think of on an everyday

7:57

basis. Maybe they think of vitamin D, vitamin A.

8:00

I don't know, but I think it's important that

8:02

people understand that to get all

8:04

of those nutrients, you really do have

8:06

to include animal source foods in your

8:08

diet. So that's

8:11

the thing about the quantity of

8:13

nutrients. There's also the whole question

8:15

of bioavailability absorption rates

8:17

for these things. And

8:19

again, this is something I don't think

8:22

a lot of people think about. So they'll look at

8:24

two sources of iron, for instance, and

8:26

think, oh, well, you know, I'm getting the same amount

8:28

from each. But there's been

8:30

some very interesting work done on showing

8:33

the bioavailability of

8:35

those things. So for

8:37

instance, Lily Nichols, who's fantastic,

8:39

I think, writes about nutrients

8:42

for pregnancy. She showed

8:44

that you would, I think, to get

8:46

this same iron into your

8:48

body, absorbed by your body,

8:50

that you could get from an ounce of

8:53

clams, you'd have to eat 57 cups of broccoli.

8:55

So this is the kind of thing you're up against.

8:58

If you're trying to eat plant-based, you're going to have

9:00

to eat mountains of these

9:02

foods. It's a similar comparison with

9:04

calcium. It's like 16 cups of

9:06

spinach to get the same bioavailable

9:08

calcium that's in one glass of

9:10

milk in the product. So let's

9:12

linger on this for a second,

9:14

because I think it's one of

9:16

the biggest misconceptions

9:18

out there. And

9:23

in most cases, it's the fault of

9:25

the public health establishment not really getting

9:27

this message across. I mean, most people

9:29

don't take any nutrition classes in school.

9:32

So how would they know? They go into a

9:34

supermarket, they look at a food label on

9:37

a particular food, and they just assume

9:40

that they're going to be absorbing 100%

9:42

of whatever's listed on that label. But

9:44

in reality, we know, it's far

9:46

from 100%. Even the most

9:49

bioavailable foods, it's

9:51

not going to be 100%. Yeah, even

9:53

from meat, you don't get 100% iron. Exactly. You're

9:56

not getting the whole amount. Yeah, yeah. And

9:59

with plant-based... forms of many nutrients

10:01

like you mentioned, carotene is a good example.

10:04

They're listed as vitamin A on

10:06

food labels whereas they're just a

10:08

precursor to retinol which is

10:11

what really actually performs the functions of

10:13

vitamin A. And yes, carotenes may have

10:15

some benefits on their own as

10:17

phytonutrients but they don't fulfill the essential

10:20

functions of vitamin A. And

10:22

so people look and say, oh, carrots, they

10:25

have such and such amount of vitamin A

10:28

and then they're one of the people that either

10:31

is very poor at converting carotene to retinol

10:33

or doesn't do it at all which

10:35

there are some of as you know. And

10:38

that's before we even start talking about things

10:40

like disrupted gut microbiome, intestinal

10:42

permeability that interfere with absorption of

10:44

nutrients that almost, you know, that

10:46

a very large percentage of people

10:48

are dealing with in

10:50

this day and age. And so I've really

10:53

have come to believe that this is one

10:55

of the foundational health

10:57

issues of our time is nutrient

10:59

deficiency. Here in simple, we tend

11:01

to think it's something that only

11:03

affects the developing world but that

11:06

couldn't be further from the truth. You

11:09

are correct and I do think it's a failure

11:11

of public health bodies because how

11:13

would people know? How are they expected to

11:15

even find out? Public

11:18

health bodies, all they need to do is simply

11:20

put a message so that people then investigate further

11:22

but they don't even do that. Yeah.

11:26

Yeah. So you touched on, so the first one

11:28

was nutrients. We talked a little bit about that

11:30

and that also sort of a

11:32

Venn diagram into anti-nutrients because as you

11:35

pointed out, you know, or as

11:38

we've just been alluding to, the bioavailability

11:40

of nutrients in plant foods tends

11:42

to be lower than in animal foods.

11:44

So one of the main reasons for

11:47

that is anti-nutrients. So talk a

11:49

little bit about that and how that

11:51

impacts this discussion. Yeah. So

11:53

typical anti-nutrients that

11:55

I talk about are

11:57

things like phytic acid which will

12:00

prevent the absorption of

12:03

zinc. So there are some very interesting

12:05

studies showing how much phytic acid you

12:08

think you will absorb oysters eaten on their

12:10

own versus oysters

12:12

eaten with a corn tortilla. And

12:14

it's potentially zero with the corn

12:17

tortilla, right? So all of

12:20

these anti-nutrients get

12:22

in the way of absorption in some

12:24

way. So with oxalates, it's also

12:26

calcium. But they also

12:28

have other harmful effects. So I

12:31

think with something like oxalates, which

12:33

is maybe the most commonly understood

12:37

anti-nutrient, I think there's becoming a

12:39

greater level of awareness around that,

12:41

partly because of Sally

12:44

Norton's great work, her book on this.

12:47

You know, it will get

12:49

in with absorption, but it will

12:51

also possibly give you kidney stones because

12:54

of the overload of that anti-nutrient. Arthritic

12:56

joint is another common reaction

12:59

to that. And yet people

13:01

don't know why they might be

13:04

feeling these things because if they go to a

13:06

doctor, doctors generally are not going to, the first thing

13:08

they're going to say is certainly

13:10

not, oh, let's investigate your

13:12

oxalate levels, right? Because the lack

13:15

of understanding is so widespread. But

13:17

these are very real anti-nutrients, phytic

13:19

acid, lectins, oxalates. And another one

13:22

that I think of as an

13:24

anti-nutrient, although it's not spoken of

13:26

in this way, is

13:28

linolex-S omega-6 linoleic acid,

13:32

which gets in the way of

13:34

absorption of omega-3. And

13:37

we know that we

13:39

need omega-3. We know that the

13:42

level of omega-6 versus

13:44

omega-3, the ratio has become much

13:47

greater over the past 50 years.

13:51

And the level of omega-6 is in our

13:54

adipose, our fat tissue, as it were, is,

13:57

I think about something

13:59

like 20% or more. 20 to one

14:01

now, to 20% versus 90%, 15%, something

14:05

like that. And this is

14:07

having a dramatic effect on our

14:09

health as well. And there are people who've written

14:11

very convincingly about

14:15

the vegetable oil linoleic

14:17

acid overload being one of the primary

14:19

drivers of ill health. I think there's

14:21

a lot to be said for those

14:23

theories. Absolutely. I

14:26

mean, anecdotally, I have had so

14:28

many patients over my

14:30

15-year career that find that

14:33

seed oil is one of the most offensive

14:35

ingredients to their health, in

14:38

the sense that even more than

14:40

sugar, like if they go to a restaurant and they

14:42

eat a lot of foods that are cooked in rancid

14:45

seed oil, they feel worse even

14:47

than eating sugar. And there really

14:50

hasn't been a lot of research

14:52

done on these

14:54

subjective factors. There's definitely been some

14:56

studies looking at seed

14:58

oils and cardiovascular disease and other

15:01

conditions. But some of the more interesting

15:03

recent research to me is the observation

15:06

of how seed oils seem to affect the

15:08

gut microbiome. And as

15:10

we know, then the gut microbiome affects

15:12

just about everything else. And we now

15:14

have studies correlating it with everything

15:17

from cardiovascular disease to

15:19

diabetes to cognitive

15:22

dysfunction, mood disorders, skin

15:24

problems, hormone disruption. I

15:26

mean, you name it, the gut is

15:29

connected. So if the seed oils are

15:31

disrupting the gut microbiome, then they're having

15:33

this systemic effect on

15:36

everything else. I want to

15:38

go back to something you said

15:40

about the lack of awareness around

15:42

nutrient deficiency, nutrient inhibitors in

15:44

the medical and mainstream community. Because again, I

15:46

think this is an elephant in the room

15:49

situation where if somebody

15:52

goes to the doctor and they say,

15:54

I'm tired, I'm not sleeping very well,

15:57

I'm a little bit depressed or anxious. Look

16:00

at this my skin. I've got this skin rash

16:03

here my digestion stock You know so

16:05

so what's that what's gonna happen there?

16:07

It's okay you go to the

16:09

gastroenterologist to talk about your digestion

16:12

And I'll give you an antidepressant for

16:14

the depression and not really sure

16:16

what to do about the fatigue Maybe you should

16:18

drink more coffee, and here's a sleeping pill for

16:21

you know for the sleep issues Yeah,

16:24

this phrase WNL. We're not looking

16:27

so neither the neither the patient

16:29

nor the clinician in that situation

16:31

is thinking What is what

16:34

could be a common factor that

16:36

is leading to all of these different

16:38

symptoms and signs and manifestations ah? It's

16:42

probably nutrient deficiency because we know

16:44

from statistics that The vast

16:46

majority of people are not getting enough of not

16:48

just one, but several Essential

16:50

nutrients that thought process in

16:53

my experience Rarely happens

16:55

in the conventional medical system whether

16:57

you're talking about uk Us

17:00

Canada Australia any really

17:03

any country in the world. I'm not aware of

17:05

that being Not

17:09

unless you find a very special doctor you're obviously

17:11

one of those or you know there there are

17:13

functional medicine Practitioners around who who

17:16

practice this but yeah, it's very very

17:18

hard to find And there's

17:20

another thing which is preventing awareness Which is

17:23

and this is this is a bit of a link to the

17:25

the other? Sort of bad guy

17:27

that I say is lurking in a plant-based

17:29

site Which is ultra processed food because if

17:32

there's one thing that in in

17:34

ultra processed food in ubiquitous amounts

17:36

it's it's seed oils Right

17:38

they're very big. I mean try picking up

17:40

anything in a package that doesn't have seed

17:43

oils in it It's very very hard to find

17:45

so with ultra processed foods You're

17:48

getting this double whammy of poor

17:50

nutrients all kinds of chemical

17:53

additives plus this extra overload of

17:55

seed oils And that's why I think

17:58

you know the the new of

18:00

multi-processed vegan foods which

18:02

are being pushed on the market and launched at

18:05

the market and in great

18:07

number, that's an additional burden that

18:09

they're putting on our health. It's

18:11

that seed oil content which

18:14

is so damaging. Yeah and

18:16

these are damaging from two different perspectives.

18:19

First are just

18:22

the impact of eating oxidized

18:24

rancid oils. These are

18:26

polyunsaturated fats that are highly unstable

18:28

when you apply heat which

18:31

of course in the applications that

18:33

they're typically used in restaurant foods

18:35

or fried foods and things like

18:37

that, a lot of heat

18:39

has been applied and those become rancid

18:41

and we know now that those can

18:43

have a lot of negative effects. The

18:46

other side of that though is just

18:48

the fact that seed oils are virtually

18:50

devoid of nutrients.

18:52

Some have a

18:54

meaningful amount of vitamin E but that's

18:56

really about it and it's questionable

18:59

how much vitamin E you're going to

19:01

get when you're eating rancid fried vegetable

19:05

oils anyhow and they

19:07

now comprise such a large percentage of

19:09

calories that the average American takes in

19:11

that if a large percentage

19:13

of your calories is devoid

19:16

of nutrients then

19:18

you're displacing. It's that displacement

19:20

which is key actually and

19:22

displacement is another big

19:25

problem with the plant-based diet on its

19:27

own because if you're taking out meat,

19:30

dairy, eggs and fish and putting something

19:32

else in which is less nutrient dense,

19:34

you are displacing all the nutrients as

19:36

you say in general in your diet.

19:39

Yeah it's

19:42

a big one especially when you consider that 60% of

19:46

the calories the average American consumes

19:48

now come from ultra processed, ultra

19:50

refined foods so you can look

19:53

at that as 60% displacement. Essentially

19:55

like 60% of the calories people are

19:57

eating don't have any nutrition in them. Is

20:00

it any wonder we're suffering from the

20:02

epidemic of chronic disease that we're facing

20:05

now? It's

20:07

sort of like a how could it not be that way situation.

20:12

I always tell people, people ask me often

20:14

like, do I

20:16

need to completely eliminate grains

20:19

or foods like

20:21

that for my diet? Typically

20:24

I'm not super rigid around that. I

20:26

think especially if people can

20:29

properly prepare them, soak them

20:31

overnight to reduce some

20:34

of the phytic acid content, anti-nutrients

20:36

and unlock some of the nutrition. What

20:39

I say is they should never displace

20:42

more nutrient dense foods in

20:44

a significant way. Meaning like, yeah,

20:47

if you have a few servings a week

20:49

and you're still eating organ meats and meats

20:51

and fish and eggs and

20:53

dairy products and all the more nutrient dense foods,

20:55

you're probably be able to get away with that

20:57

just fine. If

21:00

those foods comprise the bulk of

21:02

your calories as they tend to on a 100%

21:04

plant based diet, if you think

21:06

of like a quinoa or brown

21:08

rice bowl with lots and lots

21:10

of vegetables and not

21:13

much protein and no animal

21:15

products, then that's also going

21:17

to be a displacement even

21:19

though that's a much healthier

21:22

diet. Of course, we would both agree

21:24

then that 60% processed and

21:26

refined food diet, you're still going to have

21:28

problems potentially even

21:30

with that whole food plant based

21:32

diet. Yeah, and I think those problems

21:35

build up over time and maybe we

21:37

can get to that later in the

21:39

interview about why it is that some

21:41

people seem to do okay on that

21:43

diet. One of the factors

21:45

may be that these problems build up over time

21:48

and the nutrient deficiencies. We've

21:51

written about B12 deficiency taking sometimes five

21:53

years or more to show up. That's

21:56

what happens and people who have

21:58

this honeymoon period. thinking,

22:01

oh, I'm getting everything I want. I feel great. I've

22:03

been doing this six months or a year and I

22:05

feel fantastic. It can set in. Yeah,

22:08

let's just talk about that now

22:10

because I think it's pretty relevant. I have

22:12

a lot of clinical experience with this, having

22:15

treated many patients who were

22:17

transitioning from a plant-based

22:20

diet to an animal foods diet, who came

22:22

to see me specifically for help with that

22:24

because they knew about my

22:26

work. They also knew about

22:29

my personal story, having done a raw

22:31

food vegan, macrobiotic diet myself and

22:34

experienced the consequences of that and

22:37

then transitioned back myself. I've

22:40

seen the full range of responses.

22:43

There are certainly people

22:45

out there who can thrive

22:47

on a plant-based diet for many years. I

22:51

think many of those people are supplementing

22:53

very carefully and they're

22:55

very well educated about what nutrients

22:57

they need to supplement with like

22:59

B12 or DHA, some of the

23:01

other examples that you used earlier

23:04

on. The

23:06

example I often use is Rich Roll, who's

23:08

an ultra marathoner,

23:10

I think, or just an incredible

23:12

athlete and has done very well over

23:14

the years on a plant-based diet. I

23:19

think he and people like him are,

23:21

if we have a whole spectrum, they're

23:23

on the very far end of the

23:25

spectrum. There aren't very many people like

23:27

that out there. Then

23:30

you have people who fall apart within weeks of

23:33

a plant-based diet and everything in

23:35

between those two. Yeah, absolutely.

23:38

Then you have something in between, which

23:40

is, let's not forget, the cheagans, the

23:42

cheaters. They say they're vegan,

23:44

but they're not. They're claiming a benefit

23:46

for the vegan diet, which is not

23:48

really true. I met someone the other day

23:50

who said, and I've heard

23:52

the variations of this over the years, like

23:54

I'm a vegetarian that eats chicken and fish,

23:56

or I'm a meatball. Someone

24:00

even said I'm a meat vegan, and

24:03

Mark Hyman has kind of perpetuated this to

24:05

some degree. I love that

24:07

guy, but this idea of eating

24:10

meat and then just a

24:12

whole bunch of plants on top of that.

24:15

But that's not what we're

24:17

talking about here, because those people are going

24:19

to be getting meaningful amounts of nutrients from

24:22

the animal products that they're consuming, maybe not

24:24

the optimal amount. If

24:26

you've listened to this show for a while,

24:28

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24:30

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24:32

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24:35

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24:37

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24:39

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24:41

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24:44

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24:46

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24:49

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24:51

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24:53

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25:53

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26:41

let's talk a little bit about what those

26:43

factors are. I mean, we

26:46

already alluded to one, which is

26:48

the capacity to convert precursor nutrients

26:51

into the full active

26:53

forms of those nutrients, which

26:56

ironically depends on

26:58

the presence of many nutrients. Each

27:01

enzyme in that pathway requires

27:04

nutrients to function properly. Yeah.

27:06

So that was the vitamin A conversion. I've

27:09

also read a little bit about the

27:12

different enzymes in the

27:14

summit that allow you to process different

27:16

kinds and quantities of carbohydrate. We all

27:18

have different levels of those. And

27:21

if you're on what is almost

27:23

necessarily a high carbohydrate diet, if you're on

27:25

a vegan diet, because you're consuming all these

27:27

beans and pulses and

27:30

quinoa, if you're not

27:32

one of those people that has the right

27:34

amount and quality of the enzymes to process

27:36

them, you're going to feel that gastric distress

27:38

pretty quickly. And that's one of the most

27:41

common complaints that you hear about is, gosh,

27:44

bloating, gastrointestinal distress. I bet you

27:46

hear that a lot from people.

27:50

That's where it hits people first, almost. So they

27:52

don't feel great. They don't feel full of energy.

27:54

And they don't feel comfortable.

27:57

As for other mechanisms, I

27:59

think we're just beginning to

28:01

explore them, beginning

28:03

to try and get a handle on them

28:05

because there isn't much research being directed at

28:07

this for the reason that there

28:09

isn't much research directed

28:12

at balancing out the plant-based

28:14

narrative in general, it's in nobody's interest

28:16

to do it, right? So

28:20

I'm not holding my breath for any of

28:22

these wonderful studies to come out soon that

28:24

show why certain people do well on a

28:26

vegan diet or not. Yeah.

28:29

They'd actually have the full to be on that

28:31

diet, yeah. My take just from

28:33

the research and also my clinical experience is

28:35

it's, the conversion

28:37

is a big one and

28:40

especially because the conversion relies on nutrients

28:42

that many people who are consuming plant-based

28:44

diet are likely to be low in.

28:47

So it's a vicious cycle type

28:49

of thing. Another

28:51

one is nutrient synergy, which is

28:54

related but somewhat distinct where we

28:56

know that in order

28:58

to absorb certain nutrients, you

29:01

need other nutrients to be present. There

29:04

are all kinds of synergistic relationships like

29:06

this with magnesium and vitamin D and

29:08

copper and iron and vitamin C and

29:10

iron. So if

29:13

you're not getting adequate levels of certain

29:16

nutrients in your diet, even if you're

29:18

consuming enough of the other ones, you

29:20

will still end up being biologically deficient

29:23

in those nutrients. And then as

29:26

we've talked about, just the high

29:29

presence of anti-nutrients that interfere with

29:31

absorption in all of these different

29:33

cases. So these

29:35

things can just manifest differently

29:38

in different people depending on

29:40

their gut microbiome, their nutrient

29:42

status going into the plant-based

29:44

diet, genetics, epigenetics, like

29:47

you said, like lots of factors

29:49

that we don't fully

29:51

understand but I've been doing this

29:53

for long enough to say with

29:55

certainty that there's a wide distribution

29:57

of how that works. And here's the...

30:00

the real problem with it. Let's

30:02

say someone was eating a standard

30:04

American or standard British diet, both

30:08

of which tend to be pretty bad,

30:11

pretty nutrient deficient, and

30:13

then and they feel great. Let's say they

30:15

then transition to a plant-based diet and they

30:17

feel great for the first few months. Well

30:20

that feeling great is often more about

30:22

what was removed, not what

30:24

was added. They've taken out sugar,

30:26

they've taken out processed and refined

30:29

flour, they've taken out industrial seed

30:31

oils, they've taken out a lot

30:33

of other processed and refined foods,

30:35

and they're eating whole fresh

30:37

food. So that's almost certainly going to be

30:39

a win for most people. And

30:42

then maybe six months later they start to feel

30:44

poorly. Very few people are

30:46

going to make the connection to feeling poorly to

30:49

the change to the plant-based diet

30:51

because what looms largest in their

30:54

mind is the improvement that

30:56

they had when they initially

30:58

switched from the standard American diet

31:01

to the plant-based diet. And

31:03

so when they feel worse later what I've seen

31:05

tend to happen is doubling

31:07

down. Like oh because

31:11

I had the improvement when I switched to the initial

31:14

plant-based diet maybe that's

31:16

wearing off and I need to go further.

31:18

I need to go to the raw food

31:20

diet or I need to go to the

31:22

whatever the variation is instead of realizing

31:25

that it could take, it just

31:28

took six months for the nutrient

31:30

deficiencies to really take

31:32

hold. Again this is a

31:34

lack of education on this issue in

31:36

the public narrative. And

31:39

it's not for want of high-profile

31:41

vegans speaking very eloquently about just

31:43

that process. So I'm thinking of

31:45

Liera Keith. Ten

31:48

years ago wrote her fantastic book,

31:50

no longer than that actually 14

31:52

years ago wrote her great book The Vegetarian

31:54

Myth and she talks

31:56

about how she doubled down.

31:58

You know she and she was

32:01

told by the vegan community, you're not

32:03

vegan enough. That's why. And it even

32:05

got to the point when she stopped

32:08

menstruating, there were excuses given that she

32:10

didn't need to menstruate because vegans don't

32:12

need to menstruate. So

32:15

there are all kinds of fabricated

32:17

stories that we can wrap around

32:19

that whole transition to plant-based. And

32:21

you're right, it's, I

32:24

don't know what the answer is because general

32:26

education levels are so poor about this. The

32:29

only thing that

32:31

will help is people like you,

32:34

people like me, like Liera, just

32:36

banging the drum continually and keeping

32:38

that message going and hoping it

32:40

spreads a little wider every

32:43

time. Yeah. Let's

32:45

switch gears and talk a little bit

32:47

about the environmental argument because there are

32:49

people out there who actually

32:52

may even accept

32:54

everything that we've said so far

32:56

in terms of the nutritional benefits

33:00

of including meat and animal products

33:02

in the diet. But for either,

33:04

I mean, these are

33:06

separate but related topics, environmental or moral

33:09

or ethical issues, they

33:11

choose to follow a plant-based

33:13

diet. And then of

33:15

course we see all of these celebrities who

33:18

have turned vegans and

33:22

largely because they claim that it's going

33:24

to save the planet and

33:26

they're on their speaking

33:28

tours as they're flying around in a jet

33:31

all over the world to talk

33:33

about saving the planet from carbon

33:36

emissions. Sorry, couldn't resist. You're

33:40

right, it's the number one hypocrisy.

33:43

Yeah. So I've talked about this

33:45

a lot as well, but it's

33:47

always good to revisit because there's

33:49

constantly new research that's being

33:52

published. I think more and more over

33:54

the past five years, five

33:56

to seven years, challenging the

33:58

main... think is

34:00

now mainstream dogma around meat

34:04

and animal products and climate change.

34:06

Yeah. Yeah. So I think the

34:09

mainstream dog dogma, if I could

34:11

pinpoint when the really bad news

34:13

started, when the real bad misinformation

34:15

started to get around, it

34:17

was the cow spirit, the film,

34:20

which propagated the idea that cows

34:23

generate over 50% of emissions,

34:27

emissions of all kinds, you know, carbon.

34:29

I remember. And that

34:31

was debunked. The producers of that

34:33

movie had to admit that they'd made a big

34:36

mistake. Although that

34:38

wasn't publicized very much. No. That

34:40

number of that 51% figure still

34:42

is out there. People quote

34:44

it. They quote it on placards when they're

34:46

marching at universities or on the street. Some

34:50

people still believe it. So that's

34:53

one level of misinformation around all of

34:55

this, which is polluting the debate, but

34:58

the other problem is that there's

35:01

so much else around the emissions

35:03

from cows, the methane from cows,

35:05

which is completely misunderstood. And that

35:09

again, doesn't surprise me terribly much because

35:11

it's a very complex subject, much

35:14

more complex than the media tells us

35:16

it is. So if

35:18

we say that, you know,

35:21

most people now accept that

35:23

perhaps cows are responsible

35:25

for maybe 14, 15% of emissions. Okay.

35:29

Nobody really understands that the

35:31

way we measure those emissions

35:33

is completely unfavorable to livestock.

35:37

So we measure those in

35:39

terms of life cycles. So we blame

35:41

the cows for everything from the things

35:43

they eat through to the transportation

35:46

to the shop when they've become

35:48

a food product. We

35:50

don't realize that, a lot of people

35:53

don't realize that we don't do that with

35:55

other sectors. So transport is not measured that

35:57

way. Transport is just measured in terms of.

36:00

of emissions from the tailpipe. So

36:03

when the FAO redid those numbers,

36:05

they found that cows,

36:08

if you put them on a level playing

36:10

field, cows will be responsible

36:12

for 5% of emissions versus 15%

36:15

for transport. So

36:19

that's just, and that's at a global number level. Those

36:22

numbers become much more exaggerated when

36:25

you look at the US or the UK, where

36:27

actually other sectors such

36:30

as transport, industry, energy,

36:34

all of those sectors add up to, you

36:37

know, 95% or more of emissions

36:39

compared to what livestock is contributing.

36:42

I'm talking rough numbers about the two countries, but

36:44

that's more or less the way it is. So

36:47

the fact that the media keeps

36:49

reporting these very blunt numbers without any of

36:51

the nuances has led people to think that

36:53

cows are the enemy. So

36:56

they don't even know that, you

36:59

know, there are other sources of methane. I bet

37:01

you, if you stopped your average person on the

37:04

street, they would say that methane only comes from

37:06

cows. When in

37:08

reality, it comes from industry,

37:10

wetlands, landfill, beaver

37:13

dams, you know, it's even

37:15

peat bogs. So

37:18

it creates some funny old hypocrisies

37:20

and inconsistencies in the debate, because

37:22

on the one hand we're saying,

37:26

we need to tear up a lot

37:28

of the farmland, get the cows off

37:30

the land to reduce methane emissions, but

37:32

we need to reintroduce wetlands and re-wet

37:35

the surface of the earth. Well, by

37:37

doing those things, you're just gonna be

37:39

exchanging one kind of methane for another,

37:41

right? There's

37:44

no recognition of that. The

37:47

other thing which I think is poorly

37:49

recognized generally is the ability

37:52

of well-managed livestock to

37:55

actually sequester many of The

37:57

emissions that they generate. So The whole,

38:00

The notion of a biogenic cycle

38:02

where the me think some the

38:04

out. For once of it for a

38:06

crude argument. Out of the counts

38:08

and that is and cycles back in

38:11

the ground through the action of

38:13

those charles All niggers suits dig the

38:15

care that she create the conditions in

38:17

the soil that allow that carbon

38:19

to be sequestered. And

38:22

when you. Look at

38:24

the research. In the past five years, it

38:26

has come on leaps and bounds in terms

38:29

of our understanding of how that protest happens.

38:32

And groups like. Soil.

38:34

For Climate Where the Safer Institutes

38:36

and many others around the world

38:38

three and here in the Uk

38:41

they are documenting that very. In

38:44

that process of sequestrating more smoothly and

38:46

I think the more we can get

38:48

the numbers around that are the more

38:50

will be able to combat this new

38:52

information that that methane is only a

38:54

one way thing, it isn't a one

38:57

way thing. Yeah this

38:59

this this is another for

39:01

podcast really does it's. Yeah.

39:03

It's such a it's a complex

39:06

topic, it's and succeed. Significantly more

39:08

complex than a nutritional. side of

39:10

things are farm and assistance and

39:12

requires even more foundational. Understanding

39:15

of of the whole life

39:17

cycle, what's going on, how

39:19

the measurements are made, how

39:21

the measurements are fides, how

39:23

the comparisons are cheated, like

39:25

he said using a full

39:27

life cycle in the case

39:29

of raising towers and then

39:31

only using tailpipe emissions in

39:33

the cases you know transport

39:35

as a category and there's

39:37

been several studies in our

39:39

the past few years have

39:41

shown that. The. Regenerative

39:43

Farms they're using best practices Are

39:46

you know, either carbon neutral or

39:48

not carbon sinks? Like you said,

39:51

they're actually taking carbon out of

39:53

the atmosphere. What's more round talked

39:55

about this yet. They.

39:58

Are. Just. such better

40:00

places for animals to live. They're

40:02

more humane. They're better places

40:04

for people to work. They create

40:07

better communities. You can

40:09

just feel like there's a, I don't know how

40:11

it is in the UK at this point because

40:13

I haven't been there recently, but in the

40:16

US there's just such a

40:19

strong movement now towards regenerative

40:22

animal husbandry. And if you go to

40:24

any farmer's market, you're gonna have stalls

40:27

there that are selling 100% grass

40:29

fed, grass finished meat. There's

40:32

higher consumer demand for it.

40:34

I know lots of young

40:36

people that are actually going

40:38

back into farming and

40:41

are really excited about this. There's

40:43

a palpable movement in

40:45

this direction because of all the factors

40:48

that I just mentioned, not just because

40:50

of the nutritional value, but because people

40:52

understand that animals are a critical part

40:54

of our ecosystem. And just

40:57

removing them from the food

40:59

system entirely is incredibly

41:02

short-sighted and problematic.

41:05

Absolutely. The same thing is happening here. And

41:08

I think one of the

41:10

gauges of that movement, that increased appreciation

41:12

of the power of regenerative

41:14

agriculture is a

41:17

festival we have here called

41:19

Groundswell, which is like many

41:21

of your festivals across the US about

41:23

bringing those people, those farmers together to

41:25

understand how best to replenish the soil,

41:27

raise animals in a humane way, et

41:30

cetera. And that has been

41:32

going from strength to strength since John

41:34

Cherry and his brother founded it, I

41:37

think five years ago. And

41:39

it's just a powerhouse of ideas

41:41

and thought leadership on that

41:43

very topic. And I have noticed it

41:45

since I moved, I

41:47

moved out of London where I'd lived for 35 years. We

41:51

moved down here about eight months ago

41:54

to Wiltshire, which is in the Southwest of England.

41:57

And it's surrounded, I'm surrounded by sheep.

44:00

something humans actually know a

44:03

fair amount about and have been doing for quite a long

44:05

time. It's an area where

44:09

we're rediscovering methods that

44:11

were traditionally used for

44:13

centuries, if not millennia,

44:16

and can produce

44:18

yields that surprise farmers

44:21

who've been using industrial methods

44:23

with chemopesticides and

44:26

herbicides and fertilizers. There's,

44:29

I think, an assumption often

44:31

that that will

44:33

produce higher yields. In

44:36

some cases, that's not true. That's

44:39

not even to mention factors

44:42

like biodiversity, where

44:44

you have a farm that's regeneratively

44:46

managed and using rotation

44:49

methods and different animals

44:51

and different crops rather than just a

44:53

mono crop. The amount

44:56

of biodiversity that's present on

44:58

a farm like that is astronomically

45:00

higher than what you'll find in

45:02

an industrial mono cropping operation. Do

45:05

you want to talk a little bit about that? Because

45:08

I think that's an important factor too,

45:10

and soil and topsoil and how the

45:13

different methods of agriculture impact our

45:15

soil. Yeah. So

45:18

I think, you know, there's an American

45:20

farmer who's also quite well known over

45:22

here, Will Harris. You'll know

45:24

his name. I've been on the podcast. Yes,

45:27

I'm sure he has. One

45:29

thing I love that he talks about is, you

45:32

know, everybody's on him to

45:34

rewild his land, or for

45:36

farmers like him to rewild some of

45:38

their land. And he says, I'm already rewilding

45:41

within my farm. My farm

45:43

is a rewilded farm. So

45:46

it has more species

45:48

on it already than most other

45:50

farms. And it shows

45:52

the potential for what

45:55

can be done within the farming environment. So

45:58

I think that what we

46:00

have... have unfortunately is a debate

46:02

is as usual polarised. It's

46:05

either rewilded or it's farming. Well, why

46:07

can't we have both with this new

46:09

form of farming which harks back to

46:11

some of the old but also caters

46:14

involve, sorry, capitalise on our new

46:17

knowledge about soil which is deepening

46:19

and deepening. You know, there have been some

46:22

great soil scientists in the world and Christine

46:24

Jones is one of them and

46:27

I've forgotten

46:30

her other name, Kirsty, anyway,

46:32

Kirsty and she, these women

46:34

and scientists like them,

46:36

they are contributing to a much deeper knowledge

46:38

of how soil is built and

46:42

preserved. I just,

46:44

again, it's a plea really for

46:46

us to

46:48

think in a more complex way, to think

46:50

in a round or more holistic way.

46:53

That doesn't tend to happen

46:55

when governments get panicked,

46:58

which is what I think they are now and

47:01

they spread, they're spreading that panic

47:04

down the line. In the quest

47:06

for net zero, they

47:09

are doing things like requiring farmers

47:12

to cull 30% of their herd. This

47:15

is happening in Ireland, for instance,

47:18

as a quick way of getting a quick hit

47:20

on the emissions board, as

47:23

it were, you know, quick reduction,

47:25

again, in the model, whether

47:27

it'll transpire into

47:29

any reduction which is real is another

47:31

question. So what that is, is

47:33

that's really a good example

47:36

of carbon tunnel vision because

47:38

by doing that, they

47:40

may get that quick hit. They're

47:42

doing absolutely nothing to enhance biodiversity

47:45

on the farms that remain, nothing

47:48

to encourage that, nothing to support

47:50

farmers as they transition to more biodiverse

47:53

farming. They're doing nothing

47:55

at all for the long-term health of the land and

47:57

the food system. where

50:00

we got to talk after all these months.

50:03

Yes, me too. So once again, the great

50:07

Plant-Based Con. Check it out. Highly

50:09

recommend it. Great book to send

50:11

to friends and family too, who

50:13

need a really comprehensive,

50:17

but accessible overview of the topic. There

50:19

are a lot of books out there

50:21

that go into detail on one aspect

50:23

or the other, like nutritional or environmental.

50:26

There aren't that many books that just provide a really

50:28

great, easy to follow overview.

50:30

And I think that's really valuable and what

50:32

we need. So thanks again, Jane, for writing

50:35

the book. Thank you. Thanks everybody

50:37

for listening. Keep sending your questions

50:39

to chriskresher.com/podcast question. We'll see you

50:41

next time. That's

50:44

the end of this episode of Revolution Health

50:46

Radio. If you appreciate the

50:48

show and want to help me create a healthier

50:50

and happier world, please head over to

50:52

iTunes and leave us a review. They

50:54

really do make a difference. If

50:57

you'd like to ask a question for

50:59

me to answer on a future episode,

51:02

you can do that at chriskresher.com/podcast question.

51:05

You can also leave a suggestion for someone you'd

51:07

like me to interview there. If

51:09

you're on social media,

51:11

you can follow me

51:13

at twitter.com/chriskresher or facebook.com/chriskresher

51:15

L A C. I

51:18

post a lot of articles and research that I

51:20

do throughout the week there that never makes it

51:22

to the blog or podcast. So it's a great

51:24

way to stay abreast of the latest developments. Thanks

51:27

so much for listening. Talk to you next time.