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2:37

Nice to see you. Yeah. Lovely. It's been

2:39

a little while since I've seen you, but

2:41

we've known each other for a very long

2:43

time. So

2:45

for people who might not be aware

2:47

of you, you're very well known in

2:50

comedy circles, Dave. But, yeah,

2:52

people almost certainly have laughed at one of your

2:54

jokes, even if they don't realize that I think

2:56

is fair to say. Tell us a little bit

2:58

about just who you are, first of all, and

3:01

what you've done. That's very kind. Thank

3:03

you, Richard. Yes, I began

3:05

performing stand-up comedy in the 1980s

3:07

and did that for about 10 years.

3:10

And then I moved seamlessly

3:12

into the world of comedy writing, writing

3:14

for TV shows, Have I Got News

3:16

For You, and Spitting Image, those

3:18

kind of things. And then more

3:21

recently, I've been writing, I've been more

3:23

known, I've been writing the songs for

3:26

Horrible Histories, the kids TV show, and

3:28

also working on TV sitcoms,

3:31

audience sitcoms like Not Going Out,

3:33

and My Family, and various things

3:35

like that. And so that's really

3:38

what I'm probably, slightly

3:41

outside of this miniature comedy circle,

3:44

is where people might know of

3:46

me. Yes. Well, I'm sure that,

3:48

you know, I mean, even if it was

3:50

just Horrible Histories writing the songs for Horrible

3:52

Histories, that would be an amazing achievement, because

3:54

those are absolutely fantastic. But yeah, what's

3:57

a career you've had already. And it's

3:59

interesting to... moved into

4:01

writing novels, the the Senate

4:04

Barry Goldman is, I mean

4:07

it's it feels like it's autobiography,

4:10

Dave, but how

4:13

much is it autobiography and how much is it

4:15

fictionalised? Yeah, I mean

4:17

it started off very much that I

4:19

wanted to do, I

4:21

wanted to write a novel and in fact I

4:23

had the idea for this novel in 1981,

4:25

so it only took me 40 years to actually

4:28

get to it, but

4:32

I think what happened in the process, whether

4:34

of the sort of the three years or so

4:36

that I was kind of getting it together, was

4:38

that I wanted to, I'd

4:40

sort of written a vaguely memoirish type

4:42

book before and I just

4:45

thought these stories are probably

4:47

better told in fiction really, so

4:49

I took what

4:51

were the true facts which were

4:53

that I did when I was a student in

4:55

the late 70s, I went to the

4:58

Edinburgh festival on a couple of occasions and on

5:00

one such occasion I got

5:03

to know and became quite friendly with the also

5:06

student at that time, Rick Mayall, and

5:10

got to see his show with Aide

5:12

Edmondson in Edinburgh 1979, which

5:15

was a play called Death on

5:18

the Toilet, which was alluded

5:21

of course to the fairly recent

5:23

death at that time of Elvis Presley,

5:27

but it was just, it

5:29

was really a kind of, I

5:32

think it was a fair to say, it was

5:34

a turning point in my life really, I mean seeing

5:36

that show just, I

5:38

couldn't believe that it was possible

5:41

to do comedy like that, like Rick and

5:43

Aide, I'd grown up and probably

5:45

a little bit like you, we're a bit older than

5:47

you, but you know we grew up with the whole

5:50

1970s world of comedy, the guys

5:52

with the fritty

5:55

shirts and the bow ties on the

5:57

comedians show doing jokes about mother and

6:00

laws and the Pakistani bloke

6:02

who ran the corner shop

6:05

and that stuff just

6:07

didn't really, it didn't speak to us

6:09

really but we didn't quite know what

6:12

would speak to us and then punk came along

6:14

in the 1970s and

6:17

that blew everything away on the music

6:19

front but also it was just really

6:21

funny, punk was just funny and I

6:24

think that's where it came from

6:26

and just seeing Rick and Aide doing

6:28

Death on the Toilet in some, and it was an

6:30

old, it was an old porn

6:32

cinema in Edinburgh, I don't

6:34

if you remember it, it was sort

6:36

of on Nicholson Street, I can't remember

6:39

what it was called but it was

6:41

the J.C. I

6:43

think or something like that and you

6:46

know and so from that point really I just

6:48

thought this is what I

6:50

want to do because the book kind

6:52

of builds around

6:55

that relationship really. Yeah

6:57

well you know as a comedian who

6:59

went to Edinburgh as a virgin with

7:01

no idea about what it was like,

7:03

how to communicate with

7:05

women, it was all gave me a

7:08

bit of PTSD this book even though mine was sort

7:10

of eight or nine years after

7:12

this but it's a

7:14

really interesting document of you know

7:17

historical document as well as it's a very funny

7:19

and entertaining book as you'd expect but

7:21

I think thank you to

7:24

get that history of Edinburgh at

7:26

that time and that as you say it's

7:28

such an exciting time because there's the

7:30

punk element I mean you being

7:33

friends with and Barry being friends with

7:35

the equivalent of Rick Mayall is

7:37

you know just just an astonishing

7:40

insight into what was going

7:42

to be obviously the next big thing and

7:44

for my generation the absolute big thing that

7:46

sort of changed our lives in comedy

7:49

terms as well as a fan as a slightly younger fan

7:52

so yeah it is I think it's well worth reading

7:54

for that again the tempting tatty gets a couple of

7:56

mentions which I'm very pleased with that which

7:59

I talk about a lot. But

8:01

I think it's nicely balanced because

8:03

it's as much about, you know,

8:05

you grew up in Yorkshire in

8:08

Leeds and it's as much about

8:10

your home life and your family and

8:12

your various attempts to have a

8:15

relationship with a couple of girls and some success

8:17

and going to university. So

8:20

it's as much about that as it is about

8:23

comedy, which I think makes it, I

8:25

think more broadly interesting as well

8:27

than it might be if it was just here's a

8:29

dry history of what

8:31

happened in 1979 at the end of the Fringe. Yeah

8:35

I think the most

8:37

fictional parts really are the comic

8:40

romance bits. Those

8:43

relationships are sort of made up

8:45

but there's a kind of emotional

8:47

truth I would say, at the

8:49

heart of these relationships. And

8:52

you know what it is like to

8:54

be a teenager

8:56

navigating this new

8:59

world of feminism.

9:03

And so it does kind of tie in with

9:05

the alternative comedy thing because

9:07

when alternative comedy started,

9:09

I mean it came out of this,

9:12

I mean the punk thing was one

9:14

aspect but there was also this very

9:17

kind of earnest left-wing Fringe theatre

9:19

that had developed in the mid-70s

9:23

that was very political.

9:27

It was very much challenging,

9:31

sexism and

9:33

misogyny. But

9:36

in those days this was a

9:38

very kind of small scene almost like a

9:40

sort of almost like a

9:43

cranky kind of idea that women having

9:47

the right to perform and do all

9:49

these things, it would sort of seem

9:52

like a very peculiar thing. So

9:56

you have this kind of, I think it's a very, very,

9:58

very, very, very, very peculiar thing. I think the

10:00

person who personified that was probably the most

10:03

guy called Andy the Latour, who's

10:05

the brother of the of Francis the

10:07

Latour of course, the great actress, Rising

10:10

Damp and all those other, I

10:13

mean that's what I remember her

10:15

for, because that's a comedy but

10:17

she's probably some fantastic Shakespearean performer,

10:19

you don't remember her Persephone or

10:21

whatever, no I just remember Miss

10:23

Jones in Rising Dampen. Andy

10:28

was very committed to that sort of left

10:30

wing side of things, then you had this

10:32

sort of movement in

10:34

the early 70s in Europe,

10:36

a French thing, that this

10:39

situation is this kind of

10:41

absurd clown type

10:44

people who went

10:46

out challenging the norms of society, they

10:48

went out and did pranks in the

10:50

open air and from

10:54

that came a guy that you and

10:57

I both know of course Tony Allen,

11:00

who actually was the

11:02

first person to coin the phrase I

11:04

think alternative comedy and his

11:06

whole approach was challenge and have

11:09

attitude when you go on stage.

11:11

So on

11:13

their own those two guys were

11:16

developing something and then along comes

11:18

Alexei Sale who is just funny,

11:21

you know, he happens to be

11:23

come from this sort of far

11:25

left political background and he just

11:28

mocks that incessantly but

11:31

he loves it as well but he's

11:34

just funny and you know when I

11:36

first saw Alexei Sale, this was after

11:38

having seen Death on the Toilet, about

11:40

a year later there was a movie,

11:43

a Secret Policeman's Ball movie

11:45

or something came out and I

11:47

remember sitting in the cinema and Alexei

11:49

Sale coming on and I just was, there

11:53

was like eight people in the cinema,

11:55

I was reviewing it for my local

11:57

newspaper at this point and I just

11:59

remember almost physical. pain clutching my

12:01

face. This was just, it

12:04

just blew everything else away really and

12:06

that's really I think that was, I

12:08

think without Alexei Sayle, none

12:11

of us, you, me, you know, Chris

12:14

doing the sound, none of us would be doing

12:17

what we're doing really. No, I

12:20

think that's true you know but I think

12:22

it's great to get a voice and you

12:24

know and a perspective from

12:26

someone who was there and saw this

12:28

and was taking part in all of this as well

12:30

so yeah and has survived

12:33

and come out the other end because not

12:35

everyone survived, not everyone stayed sane. I

12:39

think as far as I can tell you've seen

12:41

fairly healthy and sane and seem

12:43

to have got through whatever excesses might have happened

12:46

in the 1980s but yeah of course it's you

12:48

know as a comedy fan and especially a fan

12:50

of that time it's

12:53

absolutely fascinating for me

12:56

to have this little window into

12:58

the world and to still even think of that,

13:00

I mean how exciting to be, you know,

13:03

to befriend Rick Mail and

13:05

how it's like to see

13:07

Rick Mail's early performances, you

13:09

know, which presumably aren't really

13:12

recorded anyway even though there's little bits

13:14

of stand-up in from those early days

13:16

but yeah that's it, you know,

13:18

the book does give a proper feel and you know as

13:20

someone who's obviously been to Edinburgh a lot, it

13:24

does ring as very authentic. It seems very

13:26

fair as well which I think like a

13:28

lot of comedians, you know, you do talk

13:30

about the university people up there and I

13:32

think a lot of comedians would have been

13:34

tempted to maybe stick it more

13:36

to the Oxbridge set than you

13:39

do, you know, there's a character

13:41

who's writing really about all her

13:43

friends at Oxford and

13:46

Cambridge and the shows they're doing but there is a

13:48

sort of, as much as there's a bit of Mickey

13:50

taking of some of the shows maybe, there's

13:52

a sort of shared vision

13:55

I suppose between everyone, everyone's sort of there to try

13:57

out stuff and yeah I think

13:59

it I think what really worked for me

14:01

was how seriously everyone takes it so Barry

14:03

in one of the Edinburgh's has to, well,

14:06

A is doing other people's shows and then

14:08

pisses off the people he's originally doing shows

14:10

with, which is very true to life,

14:13

and has to leave Edinburgh because of a family

14:15

emergency and people are pissed off with him for

14:18

the professionalism

14:21

of the Edinburgh Bridge. And that's exactly my

14:23

first memories of my first Edinburgh, all these

14:26

crises we had because someone hadn't turned

14:28

up or, you know, we have to

14:31

take this seriously, this could be our break,

14:33

you know, and it's

14:35

so funny to see that, and realise how

14:39

mildly pathetic it is, but also

14:41

admirable as well. Yeah,

14:44

I mean, I try not to

14:46

be too super critical of myself

14:49

and the people that I was

14:51

around. I was very much involved

14:53

with the Bristol

14:55

Reunions Company and there

14:58

was this extraordinarily awful politics

15:01

that went on between

15:03

the year that I did it, 1978 and then 1979,

15:05

which was the

15:08

year that I was up and met

15:10

Rick. But it was just what

15:13

I feel from what you were just

15:19

saying there, which I think is true that it

15:22

is a little bit pathetic. But the other hand

15:24

as well, there is a

15:28

possibility of great success to come

15:30

from it. But when there's 20

15:33

of you and you're all sharing one

15:36

room in a crypt somewhere and it

15:39

goes on for four weeks, I mean, I

15:41

think this is what kind of did for

15:43

me in the sort of 11 years running

15:48

that I went to Edinburgh and did this new

15:50

show every year for 11 years. And it

15:53

was the kind of just that

15:55

whole emotional roller coaster

15:57

where, you know, if you imagine, you

15:59

know, like a year of your life emotionally and

16:01

you'll have like a couple of weeks where you feel

16:03

oh I feel quite good now and then you'll have

16:06

like a couple of weeks of a bit of a

16:08

plateau and then maybe a few days as well a

16:10

bit down and then you know you go through this

16:12

cycle you kind of do that in

16:14

Edinburgh like it's like

16:17

a year's emotions crunched together

16:19

in the like three and a half weeks

16:21

so you'll have a kind of hour of

16:23

feeling wow I feel absolutely fantastic and then

16:25

your vomit I don't know

16:27

I'm sure this will be familiar

16:31

very much so well you're the whole you know and

16:33

it is the whole it brought back so many memories

16:35

you know my first year was we actually went and

16:37

rehearsed in Edinburgh so I imagine that so we were

16:39

there in July so but it

16:41

was literally all living in a Masonic Lodge sleeping

16:44

on the floor of a Masonic Lodge with little

16:46

tables to delineate where you slept you

16:48

know and there was no bath and one

16:50

toilet in the whole place for like probably

16:52

40 people I don't know how many people

16:55

it was it was insane but yeah

16:57

what year was that? 87

17:00

was the first year I went up so that's right 87

17:02

to 88 went up as a student yeah sort of

17:07

near nine eight or nine years after after

17:09

you went up or nine or ten and

17:12

yeah it was equally

17:15

all those little mini almost

17:17

romances and yeah I

17:19

think there's sort of the weird bit still being

17:21

a kid really you know being in a dressing

17:24

room and girls were taking their tops off and

17:26

getting changed and you're sort of thinking oh my

17:28

god what's happening I don't know

17:30

where should I look or I don't know where to look all

17:33

those kind of weird things where you weren't really you were still

17:35

a child but you know made these

17:37

amazing friends made these

17:39

amazing alliances with people had

17:42

a had a gang you know I think it was

17:44

that was the that was the thing that the college

17:46

experience gave you it was which I think when you

17:48

look at comedy when you look at successful groups

17:52

and even people who've gone to be solo as

17:54

a result there's a often there's a little clump

17:56

of people who've sort of gravitated

17:58

together it happened it sort of Nish

18:02

Kumar and everyone were coming up. They were in

18:04

Durham I think weren't they? That was one of

18:06

the more recent ones where just coincidentally there was

18:08

a lot of people who've gone on to be

18:11

pretty successful comedians at Durham at the same time

18:13

and obviously I was at Oxford with Stuart

18:15

and Al and Murray and Armando, you know,

18:17

she and all sorts of people. Not

18:21

forgetting Mike Cosgrave of course. I could

18:23

not forget Mike Cosgrave. If I could

18:26

just mention when

18:28

my stand-up career was plummeting into

18:30

the depths of despair and

18:33

anonymity but I was rescued

18:35

briefly by a friend of ours, Jim Taveray, who

18:37

I'd always worked with a lot and loved doing

18:40

stuff with over the years and he came up

18:42

with this idea. He'd

18:45

been to Israel on holiday and he'd seen how

18:47

all the kind of religious Jews dressed and he

18:49

thought wow they look like ZZ

18:51

Top and he came

18:53

back to England and said let's form

18:56

a Jewish heavy metal band. So

18:58

we did and it

19:00

was we call ourselves Guns and Moses

19:03

and Jim

19:06

was friendly with Al then who was

19:09

doing occasional gigs as a

19:12

sort of doing kind of

19:14

weird noises of car

19:17

boots opening and things like that. We

19:21

used to rehearse at Al's

19:24

place which was also your place I think.

19:26

I lived there for a couple of

19:29

months actually. Right. There was

19:31

Stu with there, Al, a few other people. Yeah.

19:34

Mike Cosgrave who none of you will have heard

19:37

of but I was told on very good authority

19:39

that in

19:41

Oxford in the early mid

19:43

80s Lee Herring

19:45

and Cosgrave was the

19:48

very well known act and people

19:52

would say you know I'll tell you

19:54

who's going to be the really big

19:56

star of Cosgrave. He

19:58

was, I haven't. seen him for

20:00

a while. Mike with our lead guitarist is a

20:02

musician, a brilliant musician,

20:05

but also very, very funny

20:07

guy. So

20:09

that was the word on the

20:11

street apparently. I'm

20:14

not sure, I think Mike may have exaggerated it. One

20:16

of the first acts we did was a triple act.

20:18

We were in a sketch group together, so there were

20:20

other people. We did a triple act called

20:24

Knife Fork and Peterson. I

20:26

was like Bobby Ball, Stu was like Sid

20:28

Little, and then Mike played a guy who

20:31

sat in the corner drinking beer. So we

20:33

were trying to distinguish ourselves from the usual

20:37

double act by adding this extra element of a guy

20:39

who just sat there. And he did that very well.

20:41

So yeah, he was my best friend. He was my

20:43

best man, Mike Cosgrave, and I believe I was his

20:45

best man. We both

20:47

really had one wedding, so that's very impressive,

20:49

I suppose. But yeah,

20:51

he's a terrific guy. He's

20:54

that in-depth now. But the

20:56

reason I mention that, I think, as well is because,

20:58

and what it reminded me of,

21:00

and this would be like the sort of

21:02

mid-90s, so this is about sort of 10

21:04

years after the young ones, but we used

21:06

to go to that house in tooting and

21:09

rehearse. And it really, for me, this was

21:11

the young one's house, and it

21:13

was just, and it really felt like that.

21:15

There was, you know, sort of all

21:19

these comedians living together,

21:21

and they all got their little rooms on one side and

21:23

up to one side. And then this sort of kitchen was

21:25

a kind of, it

21:27

was like a sort of four mike table and a

21:30

couple of chairs, and that

21:32

was sort of about it, really, and big

21:34

boxes of piles of takeaways

21:36

everywhere. But, you know,

21:39

from that house has come, you know, the

21:41

most phenomenal amount

21:44

of productivity, I would say, whether it's,

21:46

you know, your 8,000 popcaps

21:49

or, you know,

21:51

Al's 20,000 live gigs and shoes,

21:54

you know, hundreds of gigs and shows

21:56

and stuff. It is quite

21:59

a phenomenal. amount of productivity. It

22:01

is, but then I think that's what's interesting.

22:03

When you've got a gang, we did all

22:05

okay at university. I think I was almost,

22:08

I knew that I'd read French supplying

22:10

circus and I

22:12

was very interested in the young ones, but I

22:14

knew the path that we had to take by

22:17

our week ending and Stu was

22:19

also very into stand up, which I wasn't to

22:21

begin with. He knew the path for that.

22:24

We came with a sort of thing, well, let's all give

22:26

this a go. Me and Stu came and then the next

22:28

year came up and we'd

22:31

sort of start the path. So they knew

22:33

what to do. But yeah, I think having a little

22:35

group of people, some of whom have gone

22:37

on something, you know, like Mike, as you say,

22:39

a fantastic musician now. And

22:41

that's what he does most of the time. And

22:44

Simon Oaks, I think he lives in the

22:46

house, equally, he's a musician and composer. And

22:50

so, you know, just having that support of going, we're going

22:52

to try and do something, you

22:54

know, but also we're talking about the eighties and

22:56

we're talking about the seventies and the early nineties

22:58

when you could move to London and have 50

23:00

pounds a week for rent if you share

23:02

the big house and make it work, which

23:05

is, you know, things have changed so much

23:07

just in terms of, you

23:10

know, the number of people trying to be comedians as

23:12

well is now insane. So like I think you said

23:14

in your email that you knew what back

23:16

in the day, in the eighties and nineties, we all

23:18

knew each other, you know, you'd all seen each other

23:20

die. And you

23:23

know, there was a camaraderie there and there still is a

23:25

camaraderie. You know, if you go and

23:27

do a gig now in a club, you'll meet three comedians

23:29

you've never heard of who

23:31

are doing pretty well. I

23:34

mean, that was a really interesting thing that happened last

23:36

year. I went to Edinburgh the

23:38

summer before I last. So

23:40

that would be 2022. And

23:43

it was the first time for about

23:45

three years that it was actually back to

23:47

normal. And I was up there

23:49

recording podcasts and doing a couple of things. And

23:52

I had a couple of hours to kill and

23:54

I just thought, OK, I'm going to do the

23:58

obvious thing that I'll do here, which is I'll just walk. to

24:00

the Pleasants and it was like Saturday afternoon

24:02

the sun was shining I'll go to the

24:04

Pleasants courtyard and see someone

24:07

I know and just have a go

24:09

off somewhere and do something and

24:12

it was the first time I've ever been

24:15

there and I did not know a soul.

24:17

There's not a single person there that I

24:19

knew not even Christopher Richardson,

24:21

Mr. Pleasants himself with his Panama

24:23

hat, he's still in

24:26

his late 80s now but he's kind

24:28

of wandered around imperiously like the king

24:30

of Edinburgh which he sort of is

24:32

in a way I'd say, king of

24:34

the fringe but I thought

24:39

this is a fundamentally

24:42

different thing. Obviously it's years since I've

24:44

been, why on earth should I know

24:46

anybody? I mean it's ridiculous to think

24:48

that but even so I mean I

24:51

knew a good 30, 40, 50 people

24:54

who were up there at that point and they

24:57

obviously now they don't go to

24:59

the Pleasants courtyard you know they probably got

25:01

their lives sorted out. I guess

25:03

when you go to Edinburgh now you really know

25:05

you know you've really kind of got your blinkers

25:08

on and you go and do your show

25:10

and then you go off and get

25:12

out of like the sportsmen who have you

25:15

know they're like the England cricketers they all

25:17

get off and play golf you know.

25:19

They can't wait to get on

25:22

the golf course. We're too old

25:24

unfortunately Dave I think to that you know that's when I

25:26

played my last Edinburgh and I don't you know this that

25:28

is the same and reading this book

25:30

is a little bit the same it is

25:32

all the it's all the emotion that's gone

25:35

into that city and it's still the residue

25:37

of it there is still there so there's

25:39

lots of happy times but there's lots of

25:41

depressed times there's lots of lonely times there's

25:44

meeting people that's breaking up with people there's

25:46

you know there's loves that you

25:48

regret ending and there's loves that you regret messing up

25:50

and and so it's very difficult and yeah you're too

25:53

you know I do I did my show at lunchtime

25:55

and then I had to go and look after my

25:57

kids which is fair enough but you know but then

25:59

my wife was doing a show so I wasn't

26:01

even, I don't think I, I think me and my

26:03

wife went out for dinner once or twice, we managed

26:06

to get her mum to

26:08

look after the kids, we had dinner at

26:10

six o'clock twice or something like that and

26:12

so yeah in our 10 days there there was no socialising

26:14

at all but you know that's, I think that's also true

26:16

of the youngsters, I don't think they're quite as, for

26:19

me in the eight, in the 90s Edinburgh

26:22

was just, that was my holiday and that was,

26:24

the show was almost an inconvenience and

26:26

I was just looking forward to getting pissed and you know waking up

26:29

retching and then do my three shows

26:31

and do it all again so it

26:33

was yeah but that's what I think

26:35

that's what this book is just so evocative of

26:37

all that stuff. Tired

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Terms apply. a

28:00

factory that he wants you to take over, is

28:03

that based in truth or is that something that's... Yeah,

28:06

no that was very true, that

28:09

much of the story

28:11

where I

28:13

suppose yes, the

28:16

kind of areas that I'm interested in writing about,

28:18

I've always been interested in writing about on account

28:20

of A, being

28:22

Jewish and B, being

28:24

called Cohen and C, looking like

28:26

a comedy dude, like

28:29

my hero behind me, Mel Brooks

28:31

there, that's the nearest I'll ever

28:33

get to being, since Mel Brooks

28:35

is being very very Jewish, but

28:39

that kind of sense of identity of being

28:44

a white person but not

28:46

quite feeling like I belong in

28:49

this country, and it's sort of interesting

28:51

how in the early

28:53

stand-up days, about

28:56

maybe 40 or 50 of us, and I'd

28:58

say kind of getting on for 20% of

29:02

those 50 or so were either

29:04

Jewish or lapsed

29:07

Catholic, and so very

29:10

similar kind of background to

29:12

Catholic, you're a white person

29:14

so you don't look different

29:16

but you just feel

29:19

different, and I think that's

29:22

what I kind of grew up with, and there was

29:24

this very kind of rigid sort

29:26

of almost a ghetto that I grew up

29:29

in in Leeds, I mean very nice ghetto, it was

29:31

lovely but my dad had

29:33

this factory and all the people, they'd

29:35

all come over from Russia

29:37

in the 19th century, they'd all

29:39

fled from Cossacks,

29:41

kind of kill them basically,

29:44

and a few of them ended up in

29:47

these running these clothing factories

29:49

in Leeds, and then in the 70s all

29:52

the factories went bust, because the

29:54

cheap imports were coming in from

29:56

Taiwan and so. a

30:01

lot of these places they sort of fell

30:03

apart really but I was definitely you know

30:05

kind of being told this is this is

30:07

your trajectory you will take over the family

30:10

business from your dad just as

30:12

your dad had taken it over from his

30:14

dad and so on

30:16

back the previous generation so yeah that

30:18

was all true and that all fell

30:21

apart around the whole time of this

30:23

whole you know kind of me finding

30:25

finding out about comedy so yeah yeah

30:28

well you know but there's so much in just

30:31

this first novel I mean we'll talk about

30:33

the second one in a second maybe but

30:35

that's like you know because it is you

30:37

know it is about Jewishness it is about

30:39

you know it's about adolescence and that and

30:41

that and becoming your own person luckily

30:43

for Barry or unluckily and luckily for Barry

30:46

because the factory goes bust he doesn't

30:48

have to take over a factory that he doesn't want to

30:50

take over though I don't think he ever would have done

30:52

but yeah it's

30:54

you know and it's

30:56

about those friendships and the way friendships

30:58

change between school and and

31:00

university and growing up and the way that

31:02

a friend is a rival as much as

31:05

someone you're sort of like hang around

31:08

with so it's you know it is that you

31:11

know it's a very dense and rich idea

31:13

and I listen to the audio but which

31:15

we'll briefly talk about which is read

31:18

by Arthur Smith which is obviously you know what

31:20

why did you choose to get I mean I

31:22

know Arthur's probably more of a name

31:24

but it struck a

31:26

little it was a little bit

31:29

weird having a sort of Londoner

31:31

reading about a northern Jew but

31:34

what was the thinking? Well

31:36

I mean this is the whole the

31:38

journey one makes in you

31:41

know and and you

31:44

mentioned at the start there that you know me

31:46

as Dave and everyone else knows me as Dave

31:48

but I kind of was

31:50

obliged by the Amazon algorithms

31:52

to have a different name

31:54

because I bring out lots of books non-fiction

31:57

books about writing comedy and the

32:00

idea that you would want to read

32:02

a book about Finding out

32:04

about how to write comedy and then you'd

32:06

say oh stand up Barry Goldman by Dave

32:08

Cohen That's obviously a book gonna tell me

32:11

how to write comedy. No, it's a novel.

32:13

So you'd get really annoyed. Yeah So

32:15

the Amazon algorithms basically say you've

32:17

got to have another name. So

32:20

and I kind of think now Was

32:23

it worth the hassle? I'm not sure it was

32:25

so David J. Cohen is the name on the

32:27

novel and then a similar

32:29

way because this book this first book was

32:31

kind of 40 years of gestation, so it

32:34

kind of All

32:37

my all my kind of Edinburgh

32:39

feelings went into that first book

32:41

all the emotions and and for

32:43

me the period that I

32:45

was doing Edinburgh the kind of the personification

32:48

of the Edinburgh Fringe was Arthur and It

32:52

just felt like he

32:55

had the voice that was that

32:57

I just Heard so much

33:00

of it in his voice and I thought

33:02

I should get him to do it I

33:05

did the next book is actually

33:07

narrated by me. So The

33:10

next book is called Barry Goldman the wilderness

33:12

years massively massively

33:14

original title I realized but

33:18

it sort of felt like the only

33:20

title it could have really and so

33:22

it's when Barry Doesn't

33:24

join Chris and the gang

33:27

and he goes off instead and becomes

33:29

a journalist in Rotherham

33:33

and so while you know when the

33:35

whole the whole alternative comedy thing is

33:37

is happening he he's

33:40

writing golden

33:42

wedding reports and Council

33:44

meetings and this fantastic new

33:47

TV shows that so he's

33:49

very much outside I mean it

33:51

is the book is again

33:53

defined by Edinburgh

33:56

and the comedy fringe and it ends up the

33:58

Edinburgh fringe, but it would have felt even

34:00

weirder I think to have had

34:03

Arthur doing that at that point. So

34:05

yeah, but it did,

34:08

yeah, it's just one of those decisions

34:10

that you make and I think he reads it brilliantly.

34:14

Of course he's very good and it's great to have him.

34:16

It's sort of weird when it's a stand-up you

34:20

say, well, Dave could do this, Dave could

34:22

read this, but I understand why not. And

34:24

yeah, it's

34:27

in typical lugubrious,

34:31

almost off-hand style, Arthur's got which I really

34:33

love, but he does really, it feels

34:36

some of it like, you know, I think some

34:38

people read the books first and make notes. I

34:40

don't think Arthur did that. I think some of

34:42

it feels like this is the

34:44

first time Arthur's read this, but he still

34:46

reads it very well. So yeah,

34:48

that's good. Yeah, and I

34:51

think what's interesting, because you get so many

34:53

books that are written from the perspective of

34:56

a super successful comedian. So, you know,

34:58

we will have had Rick Mayles, a

35:00

fictionalised account of his life and you'll

35:02

have Peter Kay's, you know, self-aggrandising

35:06

never failed. I've

35:08

never failed at anything, a count of his own

35:11

life. And you don't, because of the nature of

35:13

how books are published and who publishes them, you

35:15

don't get many books about what

35:17

is most of us and certainly most

35:19

people at the Edinburgh Fringe is someone who, you

35:22

know, and I'm not saying goes

35:24

on to not be successful. You're a very

35:26

successful person within the comedy

35:28

field, but you're not, you know, you

35:31

and I are not Peter Kay, you and

35:33

I are not, you know, are not

35:35

Rick Mayles. I think we'll agree with that. We were never destined

35:38

to be those people. So, but

35:41

it's kind of more interesting to see it

35:43

from that level of, you

35:46

know, kind

35:48

of, you know, of the insecurity of it,

35:51

which I think those famous people also have

35:53

and not knowing whether it's going to happen, not

35:56

knowing if you're good enough, maybe not being good.

35:58

You know, I think for Barry Goldman, I

36:01

don't know if Barry Goldman is not

36:03

quite as good as you, it feels

36:05

a bit like he's a bit more

36:07

clueless than you are maybe. Well

36:10

in those early years, but yes, I

36:13

mean you'll see with the second book

36:15

that things do develop there. But

36:19

yeah, it is interesting. And

36:22

in fact the memoir that I did write, which

36:24

I've now kind of taken away because I've taken

36:26

a lot of the stories from that. But

36:29

that was called How to

36:31

be Averagedly Successful at Comedy, which I

36:33

think kind of sums up

36:36

our generation. I mean,

36:38

obviously you are Mr.

36:41

Podcast and I think

36:46

you have successfully carried

36:48

on a career for 30 odd years

36:50

in this world and you've kind of

36:52

made it your own. And

36:55

I think that's a real fantastic

36:57

achievement. I mean that's

36:59

what's very interesting I think as

37:02

well is how some people

37:04

come and go again and

37:07

some people actually out of,

37:10

seemingly out of nowhere, suddenly

37:12

they're kind of phenomenally successful.

37:16

I think it's interesting that somebody

37:18

like Stuart for instance, who I

37:21

did, the first time I saw Stuart was in 1989.

37:25

Right. But I think he was still a student or

37:27

he might have just finished. And I

37:29

was at the Markos Leisure Centre

37:32

in sort of the other

37:34

side of the, the

37:37

wrong side of town at that point

37:40

where the sort of exhibition centre places now. So

37:42

it's cool now, but at the time it

37:45

was a bit of a back of the

37:47

on. And I remember Stuart was basically, and

37:49

I remember seeing this guy thinking, I like

37:51

this guy. I was just like, I

37:53

was doing my show and I sort of took a moment off

37:56

and there was just a bunch of comedians

37:58

trying, doing fine. ten

38:00

minutes in this room.

38:04

And what I subsequently

38:06

know is that he

38:08

hasn't changed. He was exactly the same.

38:10

And it was just, I mean, he

38:12

was maybe a little bit more sneery.

38:15

But it was that,

38:17

you know, it was just that kind

38:20

of style. And he

38:22

sort of didn't, never

38:25

really changed, I think, from day

38:27

one. I mean, you obviously know

38:30

him a lot better than I do. But it

38:32

sort of feels like, and Harry

38:34

Hill was another, was that I remember

38:36

when the first, I used to do a

38:38

lot of, the

38:41

point at which my career was going like that,

38:43

Harry's was sort of going up like that. But

38:46

there was this kind of moment

38:48

on the axis where we were

38:50

both dying really horribly on

38:53

stage. And I had no idea why, because I've been

38:55

doing it for 10 years, and then it was just

38:57

all going wrong. And I couldn't work out what he

38:59

was starting out. And again,

39:02

it was just Harry Hill, as

39:05

we know him, you know, the guy

39:07

you see on telly, there's no difference.

39:09

But the audience had no

39:12

idea what to make of this guy. And

39:14

so, but he was so confident that what

39:16

he was doing, that he just, he

39:18

just did it. And you know, if

39:21

the audience got it that night, it

39:23

was fantastic. And if they didn't, and

39:25

he died horribly, it was like, Oh,

39:27

well, you know, they'll, they'll catch up

39:29

soon enough. And they did. Yeah, sort

39:31

of, it's quite fascinating how you can

39:34

see that when a person arriving fully

39:37

formed, as it were. And yeah,

39:39

that can happen that way as

39:41

well. And I'd like to kind

39:43

of explore that I'm going to

39:45

do one more book after this, but I'm going

39:47

to go up to about 1987, I think, right?

39:50

So this book goes up next book, the

39:52

wilderness years goes up to 1984. And

39:55

then the next book will be 87. But it's also what's

39:59

really, quite interesting writing the

40:01

second book was that a lot of

40:03

it is about the politics of that

40:05

time because that kind of played in

40:07

very much with what alternative comedy was.

40:10

And so it's also, it is again, it's

40:12

a history of alternative comedy, but there's

40:15

the sort of two defining moments for

40:18

alternative comedy as much as for

40:21

Britain were the Falklands War in 1982 and the

40:23

miners' strike

40:26

in 1984. And that's kind

40:29

of where alternative comedy,

40:32

as we know it, and where comedy,

40:34

the sort of political aspect of it

40:37

became what people thought of

40:39

as the cliche of alternative comedy.

40:41

It's about, you know, it's a bunch

40:43

of left wing, you

40:46

know, kind of doo good

40:48

as swishy washy, left

40:51

wing doo good as sort of hating Margaret

40:53

Thatcher, which was true, I

40:56

think. But also,

40:58

but there was more to it than that. It was always

41:00

more complicated than that. Well, I like the

41:02

way, I'm sorry, I like the way in

41:04

this book, you know, the, as, I think,

41:07

you know, Barry's a decent guy, but he's

41:09

also a young guy and he is, you

41:11

know, you get the conflict between wanting

41:14

to be a feminist and also wanting

41:16

to lose your virginity or trying to

41:18

understand women. And, you know, I think

41:20

there was even within, you know, we're

41:22

looking at the 80s and it's not

41:25

like alternative comedy certainly improved things. But

41:27

then if you look at the 90s, it sort of

41:29

took a big step backwards in a lot. It's certainly

41:31

in terms of the feminism, but I'm

41:33

not sure the feminism was ever really a huge

41:36

part of the 80s. Anyway, you know,

41:38

they talked a good game, but I don't

41:40

think they, you know, a few more female

41:42

comedians came in, but not many. So like

41:44

it's taken until really now, until we've got

41:46

to a situation where there's

41:49

anything like approaching, you

41:51

know, women are safe and women

41:53

are equal and women have a voice in

41:55

the community. So, you know, I like the

41:57

fact that it's not, you know, you know,

42:00

not venerating the 1980s

42:02

and 1970s as if it was these

42:05

guys were perfect and there were certainly some

42:07

rogues and some chances in

42:09

amongst all of that anyway as the cliche is that

42:11

they're just doing it to sleep with girls anyway pretending

42:13

to be a feminist which I think was

42:15

true of some guys but equally not true

42:17

of other guys. Well

42:20

I think a lot of it comes down to

42:22

what you know what is a comedian and

42:25

so this plays very

42:27

much into the second

42:30

book and is kind of alluded to in the

42:32

first book which is on the

42:34

one hand we all like to think of

42:36

ourselves as speak truth to power yeah you

42:38

know we're giving it to the man we're

42:40

telling it like it is and

42:43

you know we admit it

42:45

but we all want to

42:47

be that we all think we're breaking taboos we

42:49

all think that but then that's part one and

42:51

the other part is like me like me I

42:54

need you to like me I need you to

42:56

love me that sort of needy dysfunctional

43:00

requirement whatever it was that

43:02

made us want to be stand

43:04

up comedians and there was obviously

43:07

something that was kind

43:09

of wrong with us otherwise

43:11

you know that's

43:13

how you get so that that's how one

43:15

becomes a stand-up comedian is one who's sort

43:18

of got some terrible lacking thing

43:20

in there when they were kind of growing

43:22

up and so but I

43:24

think what happened from that

43:26

period and it was you know very

43:29

much constructed by the color the left-wing

43:31

theater group is the left-wing theater ethos

43:34

we are not sexist and

43:36

we are not racist and

43:38

I think that was true for a

43:42

large time in the early 80s that we are

43:44

and we are

43:47

not racist pretty well continued

43:49

and if you do want to be a

43:51

racist comedian and you can still be a

43:53

racist comedian there is now

43:55

a circuit for you and you know those

43:58

people are I

44:00

wouldn't say they're happy because they think they

44:03

should be getting a wider audience. But,

44:06

you know, there isn't enough of an

44:08

audience for people to see that. But

44:11

there was this idea that we were

44:15

also trying to be not sexist. And

44:17

it wasn't that we're sitting

44:19

there going, hey, right on feminism. It was just

44:22

we're not doing mother-in-law jokes. And that's

44:25

what it became. But

44:27

then it also was

44:29

about, you know, people and relationship,

44:31

you know, men talk about relationships.

44:34

And as you say, you know, a lot of it is

44:36

a sort of self-deprecation. But, you

44:38

know, in the hands of a less

44:40

skilled person, it can sound quite

44:43

misogynistic. And

44:45

that did carry on. You're right. There

44:47

was it was it was

44:49

lip service, but it was a there was a

44:52

real genuine attempt to say, no, we don't do

44:54

sexism and we don't do racism. And

44:57

there was this there was a guy who

44:59

was very successful at the time, the early

45:01

80s. He was nominated peri-a quite a few

45:04

times, like Roy Hutchins, who he was. We

45:06

called him the professor. He was the real sort of

45:09

expert on stand up. And he's a very funny

45:11

guy. Great shows and things. But

45:14

he told us about this guy

45:16

we've not known. None of us had ever heard

45:18

of called Roy Chubby

45:20

Brown. And he said, this guy

45:23

doesn't do TV, but he plays these things

45:25

as he gets loads of people. And

45:28

he organized a stand up comedian's trip to

45:30

go and see Roy Chubby Brown. And he

45:32

said, the thing about Roy Chubby Brown is

45:35

he's he's from that world.

45:37

He's not, you know, he's working

45:39

class, northern comedian, but he's he

45:42

doesn't do any racist material at

45:44

all. So we thought, oh,

45:47

that's interesting. So it was like a kind

45:49

of school trip about 10 of us. We

45:51

all went to the Peacock Theatre to go

45:53

and see Roy Chubby Brown and discovered

45:56

very, very quickly why he didn't

45:58

do racist material. there

46:00

was just not room. I owe to

46:03

the room for racism because it

46:05

was just wall to wall misogyny.

46:09

I wouldn't

46:12

say sexism, it

46:14

was way beyond that and the audience

46:16

was almost all men and it

46:19

was just like, some of the jokes

46:21

were extremely inventive

46:23

in their misogynism. It

46:26

was just sort of

46:28

fat there, looking

46:32

George, and afterwards saying, yeah,

46:34

of course he's not racist,

46:37

and I think Roy's attitude was, well,

46:39

no, he's not racist, he's just, I

46:41

said, yeah, but, you know,

46:43

he's a little bit sexist, wouldn't you say? And nowadays,

46:48

and I think the only reason he

46:50

wasn't racist was because Bernard Manning was

46:52

the big star at that point and

46:55

not racist on TV, but he was sort

46:58

of racist. He was the racist comedian, he was the

47:03

top racist. Bernard's the top racist

47:05

man, I'll be the, you

47:07

keep the racist gags, Bernard,

47:10

I'll do the misogyny. And

47:13

then when Bernard Manning died, apparently now Roy

47:15

Chubby Brown is racist

47:17

as well as, you know,

47:20

it all worked out happily for him. Still

47:24

just an outgoing, I think he's occasionally

47:26

not as easily as the band's in,

47:28

but I mean, that is interesting

47:31

that, you know, I think you've got a

47:34

very interesting span of years of comedy

47:36

under your belt. It's an interesting time

47:38

to come in, you know, both of

47:41

us remember, even if we weren't involved

47:43

with that, you know, the 70s comedy

47:45

that we saw on the comedians and stuff. And

47:47

that was my first, you know,

47:50

I didn't really like stand up for

47:52

a long time because I kind of associated with

47:54

A with the comedians, but also we're just doing

47:56

gags. And I think like when I

47:58

came to the standup circuit, it was a very interesting time to It

48:00

wasn't like the comedians and it

48:02

was, there wasn't racism, but it was a lot

48:04

of laddy lads doing one-liners.

48:08

And I didn't feel like kind of fitting in

48:10

with that. But it sort of, what

48:12

an interesting period to live through

48:14

and how much things have swung one way or the

48:16

other. And things

48:18

have got better and things have got worse. I

48:22

think the big change, I don't know if you'd

48:24

agree with me on this, but the big change

48:26

was in the 90s when the TV started getting

48:29

interested. So one TV money and

48:31

then following on from that, two cocaine.

48:35

And I think the

48:37

one good thing for me was getting,

48:39

I quit in about 1994, that was

48:41

the last time I did stand up,

48:45

just at the time that the whole

48:47

kind of cocaine culture was kind of

48:49

taking over. And

48:52

I started writing a lot for TV

48:55

at that time. So I witnessed

48:57

that culture one step removed,

49:00

I think. But I

49:02

could see what it was doing to the circuit and

49:04

it did seem to make it, you know. And

49:07

I mean, I don't know if

49:09

you know this, but I'm accidentally

49:12

responsible for the phrase, comedy

49:14

is the new rock and roll. Yeah, I think I did,

49:17

now tell us about that. Which

49:19

was, it was basically, and

49:21

again, this is another thing that was kind of interesting

49:24

in the early 80s, late 80s. We

49:26

came up with this idea, there was a few

49:28

of us, Mark Thomas, Jim

49:30

Taveray, Hattie Hayridge, Jim

49:33

Miller and Iva Dembina and myself.

49:36

We did the thing called New Material Nights. We

49:38

started this thing where you can come up and

49:40

you can try new stuff. And

49:43

at this point, there was

49:46

a new gig starting up at the

49:48

Three Tons in Hammersmith, which to

49:50

me was the legendary Nashville in Hammersmith,

49:53

where all the punk bands played. And I

49:55

thought, wow, I'm going to get

49:57

to be on the stage where all these bands.

50:00

like the clash and the jam and the strangles

50:02

and the crystals, they all played on this day,

50:04

so I'm going to play on this day. And

50:06

I came up with this really bad

50:08

joke about how I would do

50:10

my gags, which was like, this next gag's

50:13

from my last album, a man walked into

50:15

a pub and the audience cheers. And it

50:17

didn't work, but the opening,

50:19

the setup, the

50:21

setup line was, well, I've got this gig

50:23

in punk, and so comedy's going to be

50:25

the new rock and roll now. And so,

50:28

and then I did the joke, and then

50:30

there was a journalist in the show when I

50:32

did that, the one time I did the joke,

50:35

and he just wrote a thing, a piece about new

50:38

material nights, and he said, they say

50:40

that comedy is the new rock and roll, and

50:43

that just kind of, it took

50:45

off from there, and that was

50:47

a weird, very weird

50:50

how that happened.

50:52

But I think, the reason I mentioned

50:54

that was because the new material nights,

50:56

basically, that were kind of, that was

50:58

still kind of the old, from

51:01

where we came from, it was still, we

51:03

didn't really know what we were doing. And

51:06

we started to get, you

51:09

know, we were lucky, we were able to

51:12

develop our comedy under the radar, you know, nobody

51:14

knew much about all kinds of comedy. So we

51:17

were kind of average, so we had like

51:19

two years of performing three or four nights

51:21

a week. And inevitably, you

51:24

get better at it, really. But we were

51:26

always, everyone was always kind of pushing boundaries

51:28

then. And I think that definitely went in

51:31

the 90s. Yeah, I think it was,

51:34

you know, it was. Yeah, I mean, I think,

51:36

you know, even we didn't,

51:38

you know, in the late 80s, early 90s, it wasn't

51:40

like, let's do this job and we'll become millionaires. I

51:43

think like, in the back of my mind, I was

51:45

thinking, you know, we might get on TV and that might,

51:48

you know, that might be like the

51:50

young ones, that would be good. But I wasn't thinking about

51:52

about money. But I think

51:54

now, you know, there is so much money in

51:57

it, it feels you'd look at Michael McIntyre or

51:59

any I mean, not you know look at Stuart

52:01

Lee who says he's selling 165,000 tickets at all.

52:03

That's a million pounds right

52:07

there so you know these are people are

52:09

making big big money you know

52:11

doing this job but so I think

52:13

that then attracts a

52:15

different kind of person as well but

52:17

yeah certainly I think you know the

52:19

the various big agencies like Avalor and

52:21

Oskarb coming in in the

52:24

90s that they certainly skewed the

52:26

dynamic a bit but I sort of

52:28

feel like after that passed you

52:30

know the clubs more kind

52:32

of esoteric and weird clubs opened up

52:34

I think in a way it might

52:38

actually have helped stand up because you

52:40

know more kind of clubs with the

52:42

spirit of the 80s I think opened in the noughties

52:45

and you know you could find I could find a club

52:47

where I could go and do weird routines

52:49

that lasted 40 minutes or were about

52:51

a subject that no one else would

52:53

talk about whilst other people were doing

52:56

you know and where women were equally

52:58

represented and and hopefully minorities

53:01

were represented and

53:03

you know things did sort of improve because

53:05

I think it's a reaction to that

53:08

sort of you know very much

53:11

the sarcastic man on

53:13

his own being quite vicious

53:16

it was it was an environment that kind

53:18

of you know that included you

53:20

know and I wouldn't say just say women I would say

53:22

myself you know for myself I didn't feel I fitted into

53:24

that into that that

53:26

landscape at all which is partly why I kind of was

53:28

happy to you know that the

53:30

double act stuff kind of worked quite well for a few

53:33

years because then I was able to sort of avoid it

53:35

but yeah I mean it's you know it is fascinating to

53:37

see those changes and try and work

53:39

out various you

53:41

know ups and downs but it is it

53:43

is just this amorphous mass of stuff happening

53:45

and and some people emerge from

53:47

it as victorious and some people emerge from

53:49

it famous and some people you know like

53:51

you say I think I'd be

53:53

more interested in carrying on

53:56

working until I die which is what again

53:58

you know hopefully you will do We

54:00

did I Dave, but I hope we will carry on

54:02

working till what happens and you know that

54:04

I hope as much as I I

54:08

hope I don't die as much as I did in that last

54:10

year But

54:13

then we are we were so used to dying

54:15

that the real death won't be won't be a

54:17

massive problem I mean I could talk

54:19

to your day, but I can't talk to your day because I've got

54:21

to talk to someone else quite soon We're

54:24

gonna have to wrap it up But so the

54:27

books are the first one is stand up Barry

54:29

Goldman Which is available or

54:31

in as audio book kindle

54:33

and book hardback softback Wherever

54:36

you get your books, I'm sure and and

54:38

what's the will Barry Goldman the wilderness years

54:40

number two is coming out Yeah, that's coming

54:42

that should be out. Yeah, that

54:44

should be out around about now Yeah

54:52

I Decided

54:55

them the title today Very

55:04

good because I think you know hey, it's great

55:06

It's really well worth your time if you at

55:08

all interested in comedy But it also works as

55:11

a very entertaining novel But equally I

55:13

assume you know you'll get to know the characters and

55:15

you'll want to read the first one before you read

55:17

the second One and then the third one will be

55:19

coming out at some point in the future But it's

55:21

you know it's well and also this is self-publishing today

55:23

We should quickly mention that so that which

55:25

is again The self-publishing is

55:27

the new rock and roll and podcasts for the

55:29

new rock and roll It's all a bit It's

55:31

all got the spirit of punk that I think

55:34

that appealed to both you and me when we

55:36

got into doing this job I suppose

55:39

Yeah, it is astonishing this I

55:42

found kind of getting to know the whole Self-publishing

55:45

world it's and it is

55:47

developing Day by

55:49

day really it's kind of different each time and

55:52

it does it very much reminds me a of

55:54

the The punk era

55:56

when and we've had a record

55:58

label in Bristol World a student

56:00

and you know everybody made their

56:03

own records and there were so

56:05

many record shops, there were enough independent record shops

56:07

that you made your record and then you had

56:09

this one guy John Peel on the radio who

56:11

would play your record and so you would get

56:14

hundreds of people would buy one to buy your

56:16

record all around the country and so this whole

56:18

kind of world developed and completely

56:22

took the independent took

56:25

the main companies by surprise and

56:27

then alternative comedy was a

56:29

slightly lower key version of that but

56:32

there we all were working in pubs

56:34

just getting good and getting better at

56:36

it and then you know tv discovered

56:38

it and that's how so

56:40

many people from my era people like you know

56:42

sort of Harry Enfield and Paul Murt and Julian

56:44

Clary and Joe Brand of people they all they

56:46

all came out of that they'd all been working

56:49

hundreds and hundreds of gigs in little rooms above

56:51

pub kicks so and now

56:54

self-publishing it feels like

56:56

the punk record thing that you know the

56:58

kind of the the main publishing houses sort

57:01

of don't really like to they sort of pretend

57:03

it's not really there and they kind of carry

57:05

on as if it isn't really there but i

57:08

i think it's more and more people

57:10

are you know doing very well out

57:12

of self-publishing yeah well it's terrific

57:14

that as well you know congratulations on the on

57:16

the novel it's fantastic on

57:19

the novels i can't talk about the second one

57:21

maybe it's shit the second one i'm not gonna

57:23

i'm gonna i'm sure it is and you know

57:25

what a fascinating thing and what and how amazing

57:27

to have been you know just there

57:30

as all that sort all that stuff was happening and

57:32

so to be a kind of is

57:34

what a great thing that we have you to

57:37

document it and write about it as well from

57:39

from an interesting vantage point i have to say

57:41

but love to see you again dave thanks so

57:43

much for doing this thank you to chris evans

57:45

not that one for all of his hard

57:48

work putting this together as well and we'll

57:50

see you next time thank you goodbye thank

57:52

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