0:00

Michael, fall is officially

0:03

in swing. The leaves are all

0:05

sorts of beautiful colors. The NFL seasons,

0:08

about a third of the way through. It's

0:10

pretty much pumpkin spice everything everywhere

0:12

you turn. There is even a

0:14

full-size Michael Myers statue terrifying

0:17

my neighborhood standing on my porch right

0:19

now. All right, I mean, that all sounds

0:21

like peak fall. So right

0:24

down to the Michael Myers statue, that's actually

0:26

pretty crazy. You know that, right? That's

0:30

what my wife says

0:30

too. But anyway, there is something

0:33

missing from all of this during

0:35

this fall season. Can you guess what it

0:38

is?

0:40

I don't know. You pretty much hit on all

0:42

the quintessential fall things right there.

0:45

All right, well, not all of them, at least for

0:47

me. I personally am

0:49

a little bummed at some of my favorite TV shows.

0:52

They're not back, like Law and Order

0:54

SVU and Cobra Kai. I mean, these

0:56

are shows that

0:57

I was looking forward to enjoying right

1:00

about now, but they're nowhere to be

1:02

found. Okay, okay, well,

1:04

yeah, there have been the strikes,

1:07

right? The writer strikes going

1:09

on the last few months within Hollywood,

1:11

the Writers Guild of America, now the Screen

1:14

Actors Guild. They are both striking

1:16

against Hollywood execs. And yeah,

1:18

it's definitely caused some delays in

1:21

the release of television shows and even movies.

1:24

Yeah, I wish it wasn't the case, although

1:26

not saying that the writers and actors don't have valid

1:29

points to strike. It's a complicated

1:31

issue. And in fact,

1:32

many of the points that they're making, it actually

1:35

involves a world of tech. And so I thought it'd

1:37

be worthwhile to dig into all of this

1:39

here in today's episode on Rocket

1:42

Ship. Yeah, let's do it. We'll get into it

1:44

right after we roll the intro.

1:47

Welcome to rocketship.fm. Rocket

1:51

Ship FM is produced in partnership

1:53

with Product Collective. We're your hosts, Michael

1:55

Saka and Mike Delcito. But

1:59

first,

1:59

Let's pause to hear from our sponsors.

2:30

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your seat today. Okay,

3:45

so you're just not getting your

3:47

fill of Detective Benson and her partner,

3:49

Elliot Stabler. Is that right, Mike? He's

3:52

done an entirely different show, Michael. That's law and

3:54

order organized crime. Anyway, he does

3:56

sometimes make cameos on SVU, but yeah,

3:59

you gotta get your care. straight Michael. Okay sorry

4:01

sorry my bad.

4:04

No in all seriousness yeah

4:06

that's one of my go-to shows and yeah

4:08

I wish those shows were back. There's

4:10

other ones that should be out right now but

4:13

aren't like Yellowstone and Euphoria

4:16

all sorts of others. But yeah

4:18

Hollywood through its Writers Guild of America

4:21

and Screen Actors Guild they voiced

4:23

their concerns in the past to studio

4:25

execs and earlier this summer something

4:27

monumental with the Writers Guild of America

4:30

and in fact let's cut to the segment from Wall

4:32

Street Journal covering what happened and you'll

4:34

hear from members of the WGA explaining

4:37

what led them to take this drastic step.

4:40

For the first time in 15 years more than 11,000 movie and television

4:46

writers in Hollywood's Writers Guild won't

4:48

unstrike. This is absolutely

4:52

an existential moment for the writing profession.

4:54

We want to ensure that

4:56

working on The Handmaid's Tale isn't the last

4:59

good job that any of us has.

5:01

The decision brought productions to

5:03

a halt and Delta Blow to an industry

5:05

that's been rocked by the pandemic and the new

5:07

ways people watch movies and television.

5:09

The new way people watch movies

5:12

and television. Yeah you could imagine

5:14

what they're getting at here right decades ago

5:17

people watch TV shows on their TVs

5:20

at home today it's a little

5:22

different you might start watching that television

5:24

show on your TV in your living room or

5:26

bedroom then you transition to

5:29

watching it on your iPad when you're running on the

5:31

treadmill or maybe there are some shows

5:33

that you are only watching on

5:35

your smartphone while you're on your commute using

5:38

apps like Netflix Hulu Max

5:40

and others basically things have

5:42

changed pretty dramatically in terms of the ways

5:44

that people consume entertainment content

5:47

and where that content is actually available.

5:49

Yet some within the Writers Guild of

5:51

America they felt these changes weren't reflected

5:54

in their contracts. Let's get back to that

5:56

Wall Street Journal segment and dig in more. on

6:00

the Hulu series The Handmaid's Tale. It

6:02

wasn't me, the fruit. She's also a member

6:04

of the Writers Guild's negotiating committee. She

6:07

was in the room when negotiations with the studios

6:10

came to a head.

6:11

The companies came back refusing

6:13

to engage with us on

6:15

our core existential

6:18

issues. The AMPTP did

6:20

not respond to requests for comment about Chang's

6:22

gaslighting accusations, but studio executives

6:24

say every effort was made to engage in

6:27

meaningful discussions and bargaining. Many

6:29

of the issues dividing the two sides are tied

6:32

to the ways streaming has completely

6:34

transformed the industry. As the

6:37

studios moved towards the streaming model, it was

6:39

an arms race. Justin Halburn is a board

6:41

member for the Writers Guild, as well as a showrunner

6:43

and writer for the ABC sitcom Abbott

6:45

Elementary.

6:46

I've been teaching here at Abbott Elementary

6:48

for a year now. The staff

6:49

here is incredible. Everybody

6:52

was trying to amass the most amount of content,

6:54

as many shows as they could possibly kind of pump

6:57

out to compete with all the other streaming

6:59

services. Then suddenly the orders

7:01

of shows became much smaller. The

7:03

amount of weeks that they were asking writers

7:06

to work also became much smaller. In

7:08

a network television show like Abbott Elementary,

7:10

a writer typically has enough work to support

7:13

themselves for an entire year. Because

7:15

we make 22 episodes of Abbott Elementary, our

7:18

writers are able to make

7:20

a good living and live in Los Angeles. We

7:22

should not be the anomaly. But in

7:24

the new world of streaming, episode orders

7:26

have declined to eight or 12. And

7:28

unlike network shows, many stream shows

7:31

don't go into production until most of the

7:33

scripts are completely mapped out. There's

7:35

this thing called mini rooms, which have taken over

7:38

Hollywood. And it's the studios

7:41

deciding, hey, we're gonna put together

7:43

a room of writers, but you're not

7:45

producing the show. You're just like writing some scripts

7:48

and breaking out the season, all of the hardest

7:50

stuff there is to do in writing. And

7:53

because you're not producing, we're not gonna pay you the

7:55

producing fee. We're gonna pay you the minimum,

7:57

which is the least amount of money they can legally.

8:00

pay us. In response to the WGA's

8:02

concerns, the studios agreed to increase

8:04

minimum rates for writers working in those types

8:06

of development rooms. Still, writers

8:09

say this new production model has made screenwriting

8:11

more like a gig economy job.

8:13

Between seasons one and two, we

8:15

had a writer who had to drive an Uber. Most

8:18

shows, you'll have a writer who

8:20

gets a 10-week gig or a 12-week

8:23

gig, and that could be it for the whole year. That

8:26

could be it for 18 months. And a writer simply

8:28

can't.

8:28

So there's now more demand

8:30

for content coming from streaming

8:32

platforms. But those platforms require

8:35

a shorter season when it comes to television shows,

8:37

which means let's work for the writers. And

8:40

more uncertainty in between seasons

8:42

as they end up needing to find more work more often

8:45

than the classic episodic

8:47

content that television used

8:49

to produce on cable networks

8:51

and network TV. And that wasn't

8:54

the only thing that was part of the crocs in

8:56

this writer's strike. There's

8:58

War and Light, the play writer and

9:00

screenwriter, in a segment

9:03

from Vox that goes deeper into how this

9:05

new streaming-first approach to creating

9:07

entertainment video content has hurt

9:09

the writers. And it has to do with residuals,

9:12

the money that gets paid when content that

9:14

was already created gets consumed later on.

9:17

When a television show, say they get syndicated

9:19

or maybe they get signed

9:22

to a new streaming platform. How

9:24

actors and writers

9:26

tied themselves over during ween times

9:28

have basically been decimated. When

9:31

TV first began, there was a big strike in 1960

9:34

and that strike resulted in writers

9:36

getting residuals. The reason my

9:38

network residual is so healthy

9:41

is because that was negotiated a long time ago

9:43

when that was the only other way an episode

9:46

could be rewatched. If you wrote for Friends or

9:48

Seinfeld, these shows that are on

9:50

all the time.

9:52

Every single time it's used, you get

9:53

a check. The number of runs your show has,

9:56

the size of the check decreases. The show is generating

9:58

income for NBC. Universal and

10:01

so you will see some of that income now

10:03

streaming comes in and there's a terrible formula

10:06

Based on a percentage of the sale

10:08

from the studio to

10:10

the streamer So it sits on

10:12

the platform for a year and you get one check

10:15

no matter how many times it's watch Do you write a

10:17

show for Hulu? it's a you

10:19

get paid to write it and you might see four

10:21

hundred dollars for the next three years as

10:23

opposed to a

10:24

Network rerun which might be for an hour

10:27

show might be twenty four thousand dollars Okay,

10:29

let that sink in for a minute If a show is

10:31

syndicated take you know One of those classic

10:34

TV shows like Seinfeld or The

10:36

Office which I don't know for me It

10:38

always seems like they're on some random TV

10:40

channel every time I'm switching through channels a

10:43

writer from one of those shows They might make

10:45

say twenty four thousand dollars over the course of

10:48

three years in the form of a residual

10:50

check But on a streaming

10:53

platform, even if it's the most watched

10:55

show on the platform It wouldn't be unheard

10:57

of for that writer to make maybe just a few hundred

10:59

dollars in a three-year span Which is basically

11:02

nothing. I mean, that's less than twelve

11:04

dollars a month, which couldn't even get you

11:06

an ad-free subscription to Hulu I mean

11:08

when you put it like that, it's kind

11:10

of hard to wonder why the writers went on strike,

11:13

right? But they weren't the only ones in

11:15

Hollywood to go on strike and the streaming platforms

11:17

like Netflix and Hulu weren't the only ones

11:19

in Tech at the center of these strikes more

11:21

on all of that after a quick break

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Today, that's Shopify.com slash

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rocket ship. This episode is

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brought to you by Miro. Whether it's agile

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forward slash podcast. That's Miro.com

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forward slash podcast. This

13:48

episode is supported by the AWS

13:50

Insiders podcast. AWS

13:53

Insiders is a fast paced, entertaining,

13:55

and insightful look behind the scenes of AWS

13:58

and cloud computing. Post Raul

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Submaranium and Hilary Doyle

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dig into the current state and the future

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stories that challenges innovations

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and look it is a fantastic

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show and it's perfect for anyone in

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tech who's looking for some of those behind

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the scenes stories for some reassurance

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that yeah, things are a little

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nuts everywhere and everyone is struggling

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with a lot of the same problems. The first episode

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of season two is all about filling the cloud

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talent gap and it's an interesting

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discussion on what do we do to help

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to staff up internally.

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What are some of the challenges that companies are

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facing? Search for AWS Insiders

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and your podcast player will also include a

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link in the show notes. Thank you to

14:55

AWS Insiders for their support. Before

14:58

the break, we learned a bit about the screenwriters

15:01

and their case against Hollywood which led them to go

15:03

on strike earlier this summer. But they weren't

15:05

the only ones in Hollywood to strike. The Writers

15:07

Guild had support from the Screen Actors

15:09

Guild and just like you can't make

15:12

a television show or movie without writers,

15:14

well you can't make them without actors either. So

15:16

here's more on the actors and

15:19

their dive into the strike which started

15:21

mid-summer. Okay, I guess we have

15:24

a... Okay, good afternoon everybody. I'm Duncan Crabtree-Ireland,

15:27

National Executive Director

15:28

and Chief Negotiator for SAG-AFTRA.

15:31

Yesterday our union celebrated the 90th

15:33

anniversary of the incorporation of Screen

15:35

Actors Guild. During our

15:38

nearly century long existence, we fought

15:40

for and achieved countless gains for

15:42

working actors. Today

15:44

we embark on a new important chapter in our

15:46

union's history. Earlier this morning,

15:49

the SAG-AFTRA National Board convened

15:51

following four weeks of negotiations

15:53

with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television

15:56

Producers, the AMPP. Because

15:59

the AMPP...

17:59

This man became famous

18:02

as a young Tom Cruise, a makeover

18:04

from the AI company Metaphysic. You

18:06

know I do all my own stunts, obviously.

18:10

It is now immortalizing actors through

18:12

image capture like this to appear

18:14

in future films without ever being

18:17

on set. Now obviously you can't see

18:19

what they're referring to here because this

18:21

is a podcast right but imagine

18:23

a person sitting in a room and they're completely

18:26

surrounded by cameras and flashing

18:29

lights just 360 degrees around them.

18:32

Not too different from how you see video

18:34

game companies capturing motions from real

18:36

people when they're designing say sports

18:38

games like NBA 2k or something

18:41

like that. Well this time I guess

18:43

it's being used to create the likeness of real

18:46

people alive or as we

18:48

heard even dead in new

18:50

films. Back to the CVS evening

18:53

news segment. We'll hear from Tom Graham

18:55

the CEO of Metaphysic, the company

18:57

behind some of these AI enhanced

19:00

opportunities. There is a move now

19:02

for many people to preserve

19:05

their likeness but in the future

19:07

could be used to create their

19:09

performance. This is going

19:11

to be a core asset for every performer.

19:14

But how that likeness is preserved,

19:16

who has access to it and who

19:18

cashes in on it are key concerns

19:21

of SAG-AFTRA, the union that represents

19:23

actors. Now prior to the actual

19:25

strike the Screen Actors Guild said that they

19:28

weren't necessarily against AI

19:30

in whole. There's Duncan Crabtree

19:32

Ireland the chief negotiator for the Guild in

19:34

the CBS evening news segment. We're not

19:37

anti-AI. It is okay for

19:39

performers likeness, image voice

19:41

to be digitally modeled and captured provided

19:44

they know exactly what it's going to be used for

19:47

and see that there are appropriate safeguards in

19:49

place to make sure that that data is

19:51

not made available beyond its intended

19:53

use. But those safeguards today

19:55

they don't really exist and that's one of

19:57

the reasons that the Screen Actors Guild ultimately

20:00

ultimately joined the writers and went

20:02

on strike. Right. For instance, if

20:04

a movie studio wanted to go ahead and use somebody

20:06

else's image and likeness through the use

20:09

of artificial intelligence today, they

20:11

technically could. Like in

20:13

the new Indiana Jones movie. Right.

20:15

Well, in that case, actually, they had Harrison

20:18

Ford's permission to use his likeness as

20:20

a younger version of himself. Right? So that's

20:22

fine, but they have another concern.

20:25

Here's Will Carr from ABC News in

20:27

a segment with more here. The concern

20:29

is actors likenesses being

20:31

used without their permission. SAG-AFTER

20:34

came out yesterday and they said that one

20:36

of the big issues with this strike

20:39

is when it comes to background actors,

20:41

the actors who are walking in the street

20:43

behind the characters that you love, the actors

20:45

who are dining in the restaurants behind the

20:47

characters you love, the actors who make less

20:50

than $200 a day working 16 to 18 hours. SAG-AFTER

20:55

says the proposal was that background

20:57

actors would work one day, had their likeness

21:00

scanned, and then after that, their

21:02

likeness could be used forever. They

21:04

say that is a nonstarter. Take a

21:06

listen to what the president of SAG-AFTER,

21:08

Fran Drescher, had to say. Wait, Fran

21:11

Drescher, like the nanny for

21:13

him, Jesher? Yeah, it's the same one, but

21:15

she's also the national president of

21:17

the Screen Actors Guild, American

21:20

Federation television and radio artists,

21:22

or SAG-AFTRA, you might hear that phrase. Anyway,

21:26

back to that very same Fran

21:28

Drescher. The

21:28

story of the benefit is that we

21:31

lose really

21:34

soon. Mm-hmm.

21:37

No. It's

21:40

all the same. It's all

21:43

the same.

21:44

It's all the same. The science

21:46

and AI,

21:47

the digital institutions,

21:50

and the industry is this

21:52

and that all. The other

21:55

thing is we lose what you

21:57

keep, and everybody will see.

22:02

Those

22:05

are very strong words and a very strong

22:07

position against the studios

22:10

here.

22:27

Before the break, we were learning about the Writers Guild

22:29

of America and the Screen Actors Guild,

22:31

both going on strike against the Hollywood studios,

22:34

with the business model of streaming services

22:36

and the use of artificial intelligence being two

22:38

factors that were right smack

22:41

in the middle of their platform. But there

22:43

is progress being made. About a month ago,

22:45

the Writers Guild of America, they ended

22:48

their 150-day long strike

22:50

with the Hollywood studios. Here's a segment

22:53

from CBS News with more.

22:54

Well, the Writers Guild of America is officially

22:57

back to work as of 1201 this morning. That's

23:00

right. Union leaders approved of

23:02

a three-year deal yesterday, ending what's

23:04

been five months of strikes. The

23:06

writers are allowed to return to work despite

23:09

the ongoing ratification process. The

23:11

deal reportedly includes pay raises,

23:14

streaming-related bonuses, and growing protections

23:16

from artificial

23:17

intelligence. Elaine Lowe is a staff

23:19

writer at The Ankhler, a media company that

23:22

is focused on Hollywood and the entertainment

23:24

industry. Good to have you with us, Elaine. So

23:26

tell us, what do we know about the deal and what it entails

23:28

so far? So

23:29

there's a whole host of things that the writers

23:31

managed to win in this deal. And some of

23:33

the highlights include minimum staffing

23:35

sizes, which means there's supposed to be a certain number

23:38

of TV writers in a room on a given show,

23:40

something called success-based residuals,

23:43

which means that in addition to streaming residuals,

23:45

if a show is a huge hit on a streaming

23:48

service, writers will see a bonus

23:50

based

23:50

on viewership there, as

23:52

well as some data transparency

23:55

and

23:56

of course AI protections, which is

23:58

notable because that's something that these

23:59

studios, according to the Guild, didn't initially

24:02

want to engage the writers on, but

24:04

ultimately came around and offered a series

24:07

of different protections for writers,

24:09

given this, you know, emerging technology. So

24:12

the writers got the concessions that they were looking

24:14

for a bigger piece of the pie, residual

24:17

bonuses when it comes to streaming protections

24:19

against AI. And now our

24:21

favorite television shows and movies, they're going

24:23

to come right back to life, right? Well,

24:26

not so fast. The writers

24:29

may have struck a deal with the studios, but the Screen

24:31

Actors Guild, they have not come

24:33

to an agreement quite yet. Well, some television

24:35

shows are coming back pretty much the,

24:38

you know, late night talk shows and, you

24:40

know, shows like that. The sitcoms

24:43

and dramas that we love to binge, those

24:46

are still on hold. And those

24:48

talks, well, generally they've

24:50

been on again, off again, still

24:52

debating the same topics that started the halt

24:54

in the first place, I assume. Right. So

24:57

the question is, where do we go from here? Well,

25:00

the implications of technology on

25:02

Hollywood just go beyond today's disputes.

25:05

As tech evolves, so do the challenges

25:07

and opportunities it presents to both creators

25:10

and actors. Yeah, that's true. I mean,

25:12

one could argue that while streaming services and

25:14

AI have disrupted the industry, this

25:17

is all just the beginning. I mean, it's totally

25:19

possible that entirely

25:22

generated by AI characters

25:24

or movies mean that could

25:26

be possible in the future. I mean, these innovations

25:29

might not only challenge the role of actors,

25:31

but even like directors, producers.

25:34

Yeah, we're not just talking about someone using

25:37

someone's likeness via AI. We're

25:39

talking about creating entirely new likenesses

25:42

potentially. Yeah, it's like when you have a dream

25:45

and there's people in your dream and they're not real

25:47

people, you know, like, who knows where those people came

25:49

from? Well, imagine watching a movie

25:51

where the main characters, the actors

25:54

portraying them aren't real

25:56

people. Like, they're just AI

25:59

generated characters. characters, essentially. And

26:01

honestly, like a couple years ago, I would have

26:03

thought, wow, that's that's not a problem

26:05

for today. But here we are. And

26:08

and it really doesn't feel that far

26:10

away. So then on the flip side,

26:12

this could open up new avenues for

26:14

storytelling. So are there positives

26:17

that come out of this? Maybe we could see stories

26:20

told from perspectives that were previously

26:22

considered too risky or niche with AI

26:25

driven analytics, writers, producers,

26:28

they can get insight into what audiences really

26:30

want, leading to content that's more tailored

26:33

and more diverse. Yeah, and it's not just

26:35

about

26:35

creating content. There's also the question

26:37

of distribution. I mean, there's

26:39

this whole, you know, virtual reality and

26:41

augmented reality metaverse that's

26:44

slowly but maybe becoming

26:46

more mainstream. We'll see. Imagine

26:49

watching a movie in a fully immersive VR environment

26:51

or having augmented reality characters from

26:53

your favorite show just popping

26:56

up in your living room. And while those possibilities

26:58

sound exciting, they also come with their own sets

27:00

of challenges who owns the right to an

27:02

actor's hologram. How do residuals

27:05

work in a VR environment? These are issues

27:07

that the industry they need to grapple

27:09

with in the not so distant

27:11

future. Yeah, so I guess maybe

27:14

these are the points of the next

27:16

writers and actors strike and say

27:18

three years once the current deal, at least for

27:20

the writers is up. Maybe so. I

27:23

guess we'll just have to see. We may be writing

27:25

a very similar Rock chip episode about

27:27

all of this in just a few short years.

27:30

I could see that happening for sure, but that's

27:33

going to wrap things up for today.

27:36

So for Michael Saka, I'm Mike

27:38

Bellcido, and this is Rock

27:40

it chip dot FM.

27:47

In season two of Missing Pages,

27:49

we'll take a look at what happens when

27:51

an old system faces new challenges.

27:54

This is what happens when you involve money.

27:56

I'm Bethann Patrick, your host of season

27:58

two of the Missing Pages.

27:59

We'll

28:01

dig into these stories and talk

28:03

to authors like Jodi Picot for

28:05

their first-hand experiences. You can

28:07

child-proof

28:08

your world, but you can't world-proof

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your child.

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Listen and subscribe to Season 2

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of Missing Pages wherever you get

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28:24

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28:26

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