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details. Hello,

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I'm Gary Kemp. And I'm Guy Pratt.

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And we are getting ready for the

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the 22nd. Sign up now at

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go on general sale. A celebration

1:03

of a British classic Quadrophenia. See

1:06

the film and join us for a

1:08

special episode of Rock on Turs. All

1:10

the details on the early access tickets

1:12

are at rock on turs.com. So get

1:14

your best mod gear ready. See you

1:16

then. Hello, Gary.

1:19

Hello, Guy. I bought a flute. Yes,

1:22

I, you said. Why? What on earth

1:24

would possess you to do such a

1:26

thing? You know, my son plays saxophone

1:28

and he had to upgrade to a

1:30

larger size. And I've had my

1:32

eye on a flute for a long time. I just

1:34

thought it would be meditative. And,

1:37

you know, it's apparently proven that when you

1:39

get to a certain age, it's really good

1:41

to learn a new musical instrument. Good

1:44

for the brain. And so, you

1:46

know, I'm trying to sort of work on that bit,

1:48

really. And I just thought, you know, this is a

1:50

good thing, a good sound, you know, that's what I like

1:53

about the flute. I've always liked it. You

1:55

know, Peter Gabriel, Ian Anderson, you know.

1:57

Yeah, well, also it's great. It means the cod piece I've

1:59

got. you for Christmas will be

2:01

just the singer. But actually, funny enough, I

2:03

just look because I've actually got a Chinese

2:06

wood flute, have you? And the

2:09

reason I bought that was because I

2:11

went to the Shanghai Music Fair about

2:13

four or five years ago, which

2:16

is a giant NAMM type thing, you know, with all the

2:19

instrument equipment manufacturers show off

2:21

their stuff. And this thing was huge.

2:24

It was like eight Olympias big. It

2:26

was massive. And apocalypse

2:28

NAMM. And all

2:32

those music fairs are basically just kids

2:34

in black tea search shredding and

2:37

bloke slapping bases. It's, you know, if aliens

2:39

arrived on Earth during one of those music

2:41

fairs, they would think that all the guitar

2:43

can do is shred and all the bass

2:45

can do is shred. None of whom are

2:47

in bands. It's all rigs of Dad, right?

2:49

Exactly. And they're all into

2:51

that new metal. It's all super chops.

2:53

I mean, you know, it's technically amazing

2:55

stuff. I'm sorry, it sounds like someone digging

2:57

up the road to me, but it was a lot of it.

3:00

But and there was this one

3:02

pavilion in the middle, which was

3:04

traditional Chinese instruments. And

3:06

you go in and there just be this sort of

3:09

harps and flutes playing and it was just so

3:12

heavenly and restful. You had a gong. That's why

3:14

I have a wood flute. What do they call

3:16

those gong? Gong bath. Gong bath. I

3:18

didn't have time at a gong shower. You

3:22

know, that's why flutes are woodwind

3:24

because they used to be made of wood because,

3:27

you know, they don't play with a reed, are they?

3:29

And they made out of metal. I mean, so the

3:31

hardest thing I think, the way

3:33

I'm struggling on the flute is standing on

3:35

one leg, obviously. But

3:37

what I determined that my Jeff Rotol

3:40

tribute band will play Twinkle Twinkle Little

3:42

Star. And it's going to be great.

3:46

What's the, and is there a sort

3:48

of flute equivalent of Bert Weeden's playing

3:50

a day? Yeah,

3:53

anyway, we've brought our listeners enough with

3:56

my flute. I'll let you know how it's getting

3:58

on. Have you

4:00

got a flute story? Tell us your favorite flute.

4:03

We've got something on today that is, I'm

4:06

sure you could play the flute, because I

4:08

mean Tennessee with the most multi-instrumentalist band ever.

4:10

Yeah. They were, in fact, every

4:12

one of them could have been a band. Yeah.

4:16

Yeah. Well, in fact, they were. I mean,

4:18

they almost had, their two bands sort of

4:20

come together. I mean, there were two different

4:22

groups of songwriters, wasn't there? Lowell Creme and

4:24

Kevin Godley and Eric Stewart and Graham Goldman,

4:27

who's with us today. But Graham's history goes

4:29

back a lot further than 10cc, doesn't

4:31

it, Guy? It does. Well, yeah, he started, he

4:33

was in all sorts of very cool named bands

4:35

and wrote one of the most important songs. So I don't

4:37

know about you, Gary, because when I first

4:39

sort of got into music and you had to do

4:42

your history, which back then only went back about 10

4:44

years, but it was like all roads lead to the

4:46

yard, both. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That was the thing.

4:48

All, you know, and For

4:50

Your Love was that what became the

4:52

psychotic, it was, you know, of course, of course,

4:54

it was before the internet. It was ages before

4:57

I heard it. But this became this absolutely iconic,

4:59

fixed thing, wasn't it? For Your Love by

5:01

the Yardbirds, written by Graham Goldman. Graham

5:03

Gorman, you know, I mean, your yardbirds take

5:06

up quite a few pages,

5:08

don't they, in Pete Frame's

5:10

Rock Family? Yes, absolutely. So

5:12

Graham had, I think,

5:14

On For Your Love, Eric Clapton played guitar. And

5:17

on the second one, Heartful of Soul, that he wrote, it's only 18

5:20

or 17 when he's writing this.

5:23

Heartful of Soul, he had Jeff Beck playing on. Then

5:25

he wrote For the Hollies, he wrote Bus Stop

5:28

For the Hollies. And then so is Pagey on

5:30

the last one, There's the Evil Heart. Yeah, I

5:32

think that's still Jeff Beck, I

5:34

think. But we'll ask him, we can

5:36

ask Graham himself. We can ask. So, you know, lots

5:38

to talk about, you know, as far as, you know.

5:40

And then all the way through, and then

5:44

after 10, I mean, it's like he's, he'll

5:46

probably be writing a song while we're talking

5:48

to him. He clearly just never stops. Yeah,

5:50

yeah, yeah. All the way through to McFly.

5:52

And then this amazing partnership with Andrew Gold.

5:54

And recently he's been playing

5:56

with Ringo Starr. Yeah, never

5:58

stops, does it, for this guy. and

6:00

it just keeps, you know, it's more

6:03

power to him. Let's get him on. Welcome to the Rock

6:05

on Taz. Okay

6:07

guys, I'm ready. But it's a big tune for sure.

6:10

I actually wrote that originally for Tina Turner. Of course

6:12

I had gone and found Joni Mitchell down in Florida

6:14

and brought her back. I've listened to a few of

6:16

them and they've been really good, man. I've been sitting

6:18

in the back of the car coming into London, they're

6:20

brilliant. That caused a big problem in the

6:23

band actually. I was having too much fun.

6:25

Thank you guys for still being around, still

6:27

making music, still being into it and

6:29

doing this podcast. It's fabulous. Well, I

6:31

get the feeling that us three should

6:33

go for a bite. That's what I

6:35

think. I'm in a band now. It's

6:38

called Roxy Music. You know this thing

6:40

about the 10,000 hours of experience? Oh

6:42

yeah, it's good. Getting good at something.

6:45

When we recorded Arnold Lane, we'd done

6:47

about 50 hours. The Rock On Taz

6:49

podcast with Gary Kemp and Guy Pratt.

6:52

Keep high rockin'! Now! Hey! Hello

6:55

Gary, good morning. Hey Craig. Let

6:58

me see you soon. Hello Graham, I'm Guy.

7:00

Lovely to meet you. Hello Guy. Guy,

7:03

how have we met? I think we might have

7:05

said hello at a SODS thing. Right, okay. But

7:08

other than that, you've always loomed large in

7:10

my life. I'm a bass player, but not better. And

7:13

you've always, since day one, you've been there,

7:15

mate. Oh, thank you very

7:17

much. Thank you. I'm a

7:19

admirer of your work too, I have to say.

7:21

Thank you so much. Oh right,

7:24

bass players. Yes, yes. I've

7:27

only ever seen Graham really playing guitar, because

7:29

that's the kind of most... I mean, when

7:32

you're out with 10cc now, is it just

7:34

bass? I play guitar as

7:36

well, but mainly bass. Mainly

7:39

bass. I would consider myself

7:41

a guitarist really. I was going to say

7:43

that because Graham, there's something... As

7:46

a bass player, I find... Because you are

7:48

a great bass player, and you've always been

7:50

the bass player in the band that you're

7:52

in. That's not what you do, you're basically

7:54

a self-contained band in yourself. But you never

7:56

really talk about the fact you're a bass

7:58

player. It's like you're almost... It

8:00

doesn't seem to mean anything to you. I

8:05

could talk about it for hours. Yeah,

8:08

but is it McCartney like that? McCartney's

8:10

the same. He doesn't talk like a bass

8:12

player, does he? He talks like a songwriter

8:14

and frontman. Yeah, and a guitarist, I think.

8:16

I mean, that's how we all... I

8:19

think, well, a lot of people I know

8:21

who play bass started off as guitarists. I

8:23

got into bass playing because of out

8:26

of necessity, really. But I absolutely

8:28

love it. But have you ever

8:30

written a song on a bass? I

8:32

think I have started

8:34

with a bass riff

8:37

on a bass guitar and gone

8:39

from there, yeah. But there's

8:41

always that thing of even

8:43

if you're playing the same part of

8:45

the guitar and the same rhythm, there

8:47

is something trickier about singing and

8:50

playing the bass than singing and

8:52

playing the guitar. Yeah, actually, one

8:55

of the trickiest things is things

8:57

to do for love, which

8:59

is a very sort of

9:01

syncopated dum-dum-dum-dum-dum kind of thing

9:03

that is definitely...

9:08

It took me quite a long time to get used

9:10

to that. But it's natural now. Rubbing

9:13

your tummy. Yeah, exactly. I

9:15

always have to... If playing guitar and singing, you

9:17

could just do a straight-up-the-bat, playing the bass and

9:19

rehearsing, playing the bass and singing, you always have

9:21

to rehearse. Oh, you've got it. It's

9:23

so much harder, haven't you? I have no idea,

9:25

Gary. I have no idea. Graham,

9:28

before you came on, we were talking

9:30

about your

9:32

history pre-10cc, and it's

9:35

bloody incredible. I mean, it's just the

9:37

songs that you've written that are seen

9:40

as some of the greatest rock songs,

9:43

you know, the absolute sort of bedrock

9:46

of where classic rock ended

9:48

up, you know, for your

9:50

love and heartful of soul.

9:53

And to a certain extent, bus stop as well, you

9:55

know. You

9:57

were just a kid when you were doing this, weren't you? Yeah.

10:00

And it's only in retrospect that I

10:02

sort of guess I realize

10:04

the importance of it. You

10:06

know, it's like when you're in it, you

10:08

don't realize how big it is in a

10:10

way or how important it

10:12

is. Not like important to the world, but

10:14

important to yourself. You know, it's only in

10:17

retrospect that now we're talking about it's all

10:19

these years on that it's still, those

10:22

songs still resonate. And you

10:24

know, I realize I was part of something,

10:26

sort of part

10:29

of the music revolution in a way in

10:32

what happened with that sort of

10:35

explosion of what happened in

10:37

the 60s led by the Beatles and us

10:40

all following behind in a way. Because

10:43

that notion of, because you were right there when

10:46

that kind of notion of what

10:48

a pop song was changed. And it just

10:51

seems like if you think of what a

10:53

pop song sounded like in 1964

10:55

compared to 60, like,

10:57

you know, from say bus stop. Yeah.

11:00

You know, I always think of it. I

11:02

always think of it in these terms, like

11:05

your, your, your birds on the sand, this

11:07

is musicians up till a

11:10

certain point in the early 60s,

11:12

everything was sort of CA minor

11:14

SG. Right. We,

11:16

Dan, that's my favorite for. Nothing

11:19

wrong with it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. I

11:21

wrote that. True is not far off. You did

11:23

use it. Good effect. But

11:28

what happened to me was I heard the House of

11:30

the Rising Sun and it was A

11:32

minor C, D, F, which

11:35

to me was like the

11:37

opposite, the reverse and

11:40

the flip side, the dark side of CA

11:42

minor, F, G, if you like. And

11:44

I'd always been drawn towards sort of minor keys

11:46

anyway. And that I

11:48

use that particularly the sort of A

11:50

minor to C in a lot or

11:52

E minor. For

11:56

your love is the same. No

11:59

milk. today has that change

12:01

as well. A lot of my songs

12:03

have those changes. No Milk Today,

12:05

which is a lovely pointer towards your

12:07

lyrical style, the way that you would

12:09

say you would find a line would

12:12

stick in your head which might seem

12:14

mundane. Because No Milk

12:16

Today is a redland

12:19

of that whole kind of kitchen

12:21

sink angry playwright. Well,

12:23

yeah, but I have to credit

12:25

my dad. My dad was very

12:28

helpful to me during the 60s

12:32

when I was writing songs for the Hollies

12:34

and the Arbors and Herman's Hermits. He

12:37

was a writer. He wasn't a professional writer,

12:39

but he was certainly good enough to be

12:41

a professional writer. He

12:43

wrote plays, articles for newspapers

12:47

and lyrics. What was his

12:50

name, Grant? Hammy Galtman, my dad. Was

12:52

he Jewish? Yeah.

12:55

Well done. Sorry, I had that.

12:58

And my dad was

13:01

very artistic and helped

13:03

me with the lyrics. And it was actually No Milk

13:05

Today came from him. In

13:08

fact, you called him Haim the Rhyme, didn't

13:11

you? Well, yes. It's actually Kevin in the

13:13

band. He called him Haim. Let's call Haim

13:15

the Rhyme up. Because that

13:17

is very much a trademark of yours,

13:19

is the interesting, unusual and

13:22

intelligent rhyme. Yeah. Is that something you

13:24

clearly love? Well, I think I've always

13:26

been interested in writing about, I mean,

13:29

I've certainly written the

13:31

sort of standard love songs.

13:34

But I guess that myself and

13:37

certainly with 10CC, we tried

13:39

to avoid the

13:41

cliches, if you like, for a long time.

13:45

Well, I'm not in love. Exactly.

13:47

I mean, with that, you know,

13:49

Eric and I talked about, right,

13:52

I said we could write the perfect love

13:54

song, but we don't want to write anything

13:56

that is a cliche. And I mean,

13:58

Eric came up with the perfect title

14:01

and everything sort of flowed from that. Wonderful.

14:04

But with No Milk Today, my

14:06

dad actually, he gave me that title.

14:08

He said he'd been around to see one of his

14:10

friends and his friend wasn't in. He turned on the

14:13

doorstep, saw the empty milk bottle, came back to me

14:15

and said, I've got a great idea for a song,

14:17

No Milk Today. I told him that was a rubbish

14:19

idea and he said, you're

14:22

missing the point. It's not about

14:24

the fact that people don't want milk that

14:26

day. It's what the empty milk bottle represents.

14:28

You know, you saw it, he

14:30

went much deeper into it. The fact that, you

14:32

know, the bottle stands for law

14:34

and the symbol of the dawn is such a

14:37

great line. It's

14:39

poetry, you know, it's poetry. Just

14:41

jump back to the beginning, only because I want to

14:43

get to something here. It was because

14:46

your moment was you went to see Cliff Richard when you

14:48

were a dad, weren't you? And your dad. And

14:51

so in fact, if with your permission, if

14:53

Gary, if you don't mind, I'd like to

14:55

read the first stanza of a

14:57

poem by Jaime Goldman called Cliff and

14:59

the Boy. We

15:02

all have heroes to worship from afar. My

15:04

son had one when he was just 10.

15:06

His name was Cliff, Cliff Richard the pop

15:09

star. And when his idol came to town

15:11

to give a concert at the free trade

15:13

hall, he played and pestered me for the

15:16

wherewithal to buy a ticket so that he

15:18

could see his hero in flesh and blood.

15:20

Now I tended to be iconoclastic and preferred

15:22

the sound of Brig House and Rastwick, but

15:25

I couldn't deny him this pleasure and

15:27

joy. Remembering that I too was once

15:29

a boy. Oh, yeah. We

15:31

actually got that one, but the whole the parrot

15:34

maybe I'll post it to me. It goes all

15:36

the way down and goes all the way through

15:38

your career. And I'm just going to

15:40

read the last one, because this is what a beautiful

15:42

thing to have from your dad. Once

15:45

a hit into the chart, it goes, watch

15:47

it climb up and up and up. It

15:49

reaches the top as do many more. Then

15:51

come the prizes, golden silver discs galore. Was

15:54

it Cliff who opened the door? Yeah. Wow.

15:57

There's the question. There's the question now. Can

16:01

I say it is beautiful.

16:04

When my dad passed away in 1991,

16:08

I wanted to put together a book of

16:10

his work, nothing to

16:12

do with things that, you know,

16:14

lyrics he'd written with me. But

16:17

we actually found that poem.

16:21

So he never showed me that when

16:23

he was alive. But one of the

16:25

finds that was, it was beautiful, absolutely

16:27

beautiful. Was it Cliff that

16:29

opened the door? Well, yes, I

16:32

guess it was. I mean, there were

16:34

prior to that, not exclusively,

16:37

but like, I'm going to guess that

16:40

like you, I think I'm a bit

16:42

older than you, but even so, people

16:44

like the Eberly Brothers, Little Richard, Buddy

16:48

Holly, Eddie Cochran, Chuck

16:52

Berry, you know, those with the, then

16:55

the Skiffle era, of course, which isn't

16:57

talked about so much with Lonnie Donegan,

17:00

which really inspired a lot of us. I

17:02

remember being at school. Let's

17:04

just get anything. Have you got a guitar?

17:06

Yes. Can you play it? No,

17:08

nevermind. Just let's make

17:11

some noise together. Then, I

17:13

mean, Cliff and the Shadows were

17:15

absolutely massive. I mean, and those

17:17

records are still great. I'm a

17:19

Mad Shadows fan and we

17:21

have the honour to sit with

17:24

Bruce and Brian as well on occasion,

17:26

don't we, Gary? Yeah, we do. Did

17:29

you never came down as a kid, I guess,

17:31

to the Two Eyes Club? No, no. Did

17:34

you have, so you saw them up in Manchester? Yeah,

17:36

yeah, that was the only time I never, you know...

17:38

I'd just like to introduce one little thing, Graham,

17:41

my one little thing here, as

17:43

we were on down, because my dad co-wrote

17:45

Rock with the Caveman. Oh, right, great. Tommy

17:47

Steele. I remember that. Were you playing

17:49

by then? Did you have a guitar in your hands? I

17:51

mean, what was this... OK, well,

17:54

my musical journey briefly was,

17:56

Seven, I became very

17:58

aware of music. I fell in love with it. love with

18:00

music. I wanted to be a

18:02

drummer. My mum had a handbag

18:04

that had like a serrated surface

18:06

and I used to use the

18:09

clothes brushes to sort of go...

18:12

And I did have some drum lessons but

18:15

it was not to be and although

18:17

I still love drums, looking at

18:20

drums and drummers, I always

18:22

bought a guitar by a cousin of mine, bought

18:24

me a guitar that cost him a fiver when

18:26

I was 11 and that as

18:29

soon as I held it I thought that's it

18:31

for me. This is my... I'm going to

18:34

be married to this instrument for life.

18:38

What sort of guitar was it? Was it a

18:40

Spanish guitar with a really high action, hardly

18:44

playable and yet it

18:46

was wonderful. And because we

18:48

all had Spanish guitar

18:51

and it's such a flat

18:54

finger. Yeah, why? The first time you pick up a finger, you

18:57

pick up an electric guitar and you're like,

18:59

oh my God. Yeah, the joy. This is

19:01

easy. Were you playing other people's songs

19:03

then? Yeah, we were just...

19:05

I started forming bands when I

19:07

was about 14 and just

19:10

playing covers. Yeah, just doing whatever

19:12

was in that. I remember what they were but whatever

19:14

was in the charts. Did you remember that first song

19:16

that you wrote? I remember...

19:20

Yes, I do. I think

19:22

about it with a little bit of horror

19:24

but it was so naive but then that's

19:27

what one would expect. I think I started

19:29

writing sort of when I was about 17, 18,

19:32

really simple stuff

19:36

but then when I was 19 I wrote the

19:38

first song that became a hit. Why

19:41

did you start writing? Was it because you

19:43

didn't really like the covers you were playing

19:45

or had that... I was really

19:47

inspired like me and millions of other people

19:49

inspired by the Beatles. Suddenly

19:52

it was, well, we don't have

19:54

to go down to Denmark Street and go around

19:56

all the publishers to find a song. I was

19:58

in a band. at

20:00

the time with Kevin Godley called the

20:02

Mockingbirds and we did

20:05

mainly covers. No

20:08

one would give us a song so a

20:10

combination of necessity and

20:13

inspired by the Beatles.

20:16

I started writing seriously. And

20:18

how was it? How did you meet Kevin? By the way, were you?

20:22

Kevin, Kevin, L'Alcrie, M&I

20:25

all used to rehearse a place called

20:27

the Jewish Lata Brigade, which was

20:29

like a social club in North Manchester.

20:32

And, you know, they're

20:34

raised for social events, lots of things.

20:36

It was a really bustling, fantastic place.

20:40

Did you have punch ups with the Salford

20:42

Lads Club? I didn't know that, because it's

20:45

been immortalized on that Smiths. Oh, right, that's

20:47

right. The Salford Lads Club was a long

20:49

way away from where we were.

20:53

But the deal was that the club

20:56

allowed us to rehearse

20:58

in lots of different rooms

21:00

there, in exchange for

21:02

us playing at their social events. That was

21:05

an excellent deal, I must say. So that's

21:07

where I met Kevin and L'Alcrie. And

21:09

was there an immediate rapport with them? Were they

21:12

already a songwriting team or did they have any?

21:15

No, no, they were just playing in bands.

21:17

I think when I first met them, they

21:20

were in separate bands. But I

21:22

was in a band called the Whirlwinds and we were

21:24

doing sort of very, doing a lot

21:26

of cabaret circuit in a way,

21:29

and doing lots of covers and

21:31

kind of old fashioned songs,

21:34

a few, you know, we

21:36

had a manager who was used

21:39

to go to Italy a lot. So we used to do a

21:41

lot of Italian covers, like

21:44

Romantica, some

21:46

of the, I can't remember all

21:49

the titles of them all, but I got

21:51

actually got fed up with it all and

21:53

decided to form another band. And I've noticed,

21:55

I've heard Kevin playing in this

21:57

other band and thought he was very, very good.

22:00

good and said, listen, I'm going to form

22:02

another band you want to join with me.

22:04

And that was the Mockingbirds, which actually contained

22:06

half of Tennessee City. Did you

22:09

get signed? You got signed by George

22:11

O'Gram? We did get signed and everything

22:13

we recorded, whether it was

22:15

a cover or a song that I'd written, did

22:17

absolutely nothing. Was it Camilla? But every song that

22:19

I gave to other people was a hit. And

22:22

did you have to go to London for that

22:24

to happen? Or was there any, were there sort

22:26

of business people? I think we had business people

22:29

that came up. I don't remember going down to

22:31

London all the time to make that all happen.

22:33

I mean, we did record in London. We recorded,

22:35

do you remember

22:39

Adficient's studio? Yeah, yeah,

22:41

we did some recording there with

22:43

George O'Gram, who I'd already had

22:45

a relationship with because of the

22:47

Arlford's. And he did

22:49

a record with us. Yeah. And then

22:52

Kevin and Lull had a

22:54

project called Frabjoy and Runcible Spoon

22:56

that came out on the

22:58

immediate label, I think it was, which was something

23:01

that George O'Gram was assessing. Runcible

23:08

Spoon, because runcible is Edward Lear, isn't

23:10

it? That's an Edward Lee-aid up word,

23:12

isn't it? This was just some sort

23:14

of mad name. But already, there's a

23:16

sense of humor in the band, isn't

23:18

there? A sense of irony. Yes. And

23:20

so Kevin and Lull

23:23

and I were kind

23:25

of friends. We were from the same area. And

23:28

now we've got three-quarters of country. Seven

23:31

and a half. Yeah, if you like. Yeah.

23:33

So let's just mention George O'Gramelski because he

23:35

was famous. Was he at the railway tavern?

23:37

Wasn't that guy? Have I got that all

23:39

wrong? That was where the Arlford's. Yeah,

23:42

he managed the Arlford. Yeah, he managed the Arlford. What

23:44

club did he look after a club as well, didn't

23:46

he? Was he

23:48

still with the O'Pee Island? Was it? No, Richmond Hotel

23:50

was the Stones. There was the O'Pee Island. I remember

23:53

Cluk's. The Ricky Tick Club.

23:55

Yeah. I'm

23:57

sure our listeners will know. This is all the stuff.

24:00

This used to be like my history lesson,

24:02

in so many books, you know, and Long

24:04

John Baldry, Cyril Davis. I saw all those

24:06

things. Alexis Corner. Alexis Corner. I remember whenever

24:09

I used to come to London, I went

24:11

to the clubs and was

24:13

just blown away. But I actually

24:15

saw the others came up to Manchester a couple

24:17

of times. Once we... How

24:20

do you get the song to them? Okay. Well,

24:23

my manager at the time,

24:25

Harvey, had this... So you had a manager? I

24:28

had a manager, yeah. He was

24:30

very important in my... Starting

24:33

off my career. He

24:35

managed Herman's Hermit's and he lived around the

24:38

corner from me. He'd heard I was writing

24:40

songs, I don't know from whom, and he

24:42

came round and I was

24:44

working in an outfit to show for the time. So

24:48

I started writing songs, eventually got the

24:51

sack because I was playing with the

24:53

mockingbirds quite regularly. So I was coming

24:55

in to work late or leaving early

24:57

to go and do a gig. Got

24:59

the sack. Harvey started

25:02

paying me like a retainer just

25:04

to, you know, like a small

25:06

wage. He said, why don't you just write songs

25:08

all day? I thought, okay, I

25:10

can do that. My parents

25:12

were horrified at first, but

25:15

I'd always been very supportive of me.

25:17

And not within six months, the

25:20

odd birds was recorded for your love. So

25:22

it worked out quite well. That's amazing. Quite

25:25

well. So how did you... Did

25:27

you do the demo and then... Okay, yes,

25:29

I did the demo. And what happened was

25:33

Harvey was a... He

25:35

was a big thinker, okay? And

25:38

a lot of the ideas were absolutely ridiculous,

25:40

but some of them were very good. And

25:43

he said, I've written for you, and he said, I

25:45

think we should get it to the Beatles. I

25:47

said, I think the Beatles are

25:49

okay, the songwriting came off. Now

25:53

although it was a stupid

25:55

idea, it did lead to

25:57

the publisher saying... that

26:00

ain't going to happen. But by

26:02

coincidence, the Yardbirds

26:04

are supporting the Beatles at

26:06

the Hammer Smith-Odeon Christmas show

26:09

and they're looking

26:11

for through kind of

26:14

go commercial in a way. You know,

26:16

they decided they wanted to stop

26:19

being just a pure rhythm and blues band and

26:22

do something that might get them some

26:24

chart success. I mean, they were

26:26

wonderful. But it is extraordinary that if

26:28

anyone who knows the Yardbirds historically basically

26:30

knows them through your songs and the

26:32

funny thing is wouldn't actually know them

26:34

as an R&B outfit. No, possibly not.

26:36

But I have the

26:39

honour of seeing them both with Clapton and with

26:41

Jeff Beck. Anyway,

26:45

the song got to the Yardbirds and Paul

26:47

Samuel Smith, who was the bass

26:49

player and produce and

26:51

really the musical sort of looked

26:54

after everything musically for them. He

26:57

said, I

26:59

think this is great and they recorded it. And

27:01

then if you got that first demo, so yes.

27:03

Yeah. Have you ever released it? What

27:06

would you have recorded? We

27:08

would have recorded this as

27:10

pre when we started Strawberry

27:12

Studios. It would have been done at

27:14

like a demo studio. I think somewhere in

27:17

South Manchester we did it. And

27:19

there's the bongos are on it, but there's

27:21

no harpsichord. That was a touch of genius

27:24

using the harpsichord. But I did play an

27:26

acoustic guitar on

27:30

the original demo. So when you say there's no harpsichord, no

27:32

bongo, but is there a band? Yeah, there's a band around

27:34

it. Yeah, there are bongos on it. Oh, right. Yeah, there

27:37

are bongos on it. Oh, right. But

27:39

they first of all, doing the

27:41

pulling the harpsichord on it, changed

27:44

it dramatically. Obviously, the sound

27:47

sonically. And there were

27:49

various other changes from the demo. So

27:51

there was a lot of some

27:54

songs that I've written that the artists record. look

28:00

very much like the demos and some of

28:02

them are not and the yard birds in

28:04

particular, it changed things a lot. But I

28:06

heard Brian Auger turned up to play

28:08

the piano and there was no piano there, there was

28:12

just a harpsichord and he thought it

28:14

was ridiculous but he put the harpsichord on because

28:16

it sounds like it's one of the first records,

28:18

actually sixties records to have the classic harpsichord. Yeah,

28:20

I mean in stories like that there was

28:22

no piano so I played the harpsichord, you

28:25

know, it's like how does

28:27

magic isn't it? You

28:29

couldn't have got, if someone had said oh I

28:31

think this would be good idea to have a harpsichord

28:33

on there, no one would have thought of that. But

28:35

it then became a sixties thing didn't it? I mean

28:37

there was that TV show, it was a very TV

28:40

thing, it was a very Ted Astley thing, like

28:43

that you have a harpsichord, a very funny guitar

28:45

and maybe a bit of flute, that was like

28:48

and but also but it had the thing

28:50

of where basically it sort of goes into

28:52

this mid-late where it basically turns into another

28:54

song. Where did that idea come from?

28:57

Oh the middle notion, yeah. It

28:59

was just a thing that I thought was a

29:01

good idea, you know, I'm certainly

29:03

not the first person to do it but

29:07

I like the idea of why

29:10

shouldn't it suddenly change into a whole different

29:13

thing. But of course there

29:15

has to be some sort of connection between

29:17

the two parts even though they're very very

29:20

different from one another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

29:22

mean legend has it though that it was

29:24

that song that made Clapton leave which because

29:26

he didn't want to keep that commercial. Yeah,

29:29

I don't think it was, I think it was The

29:31

Last Straw basically, I think he

29:33

was not happy with the,

29:36

he first of all he wasn't happy

29:38

with them changing direction, you know, he

29:40

was a real blues purist at that

29:42

time and they were going for

29:44

a, what he considered a pop

29:46

song which I don't, I've never

29:48

thought of for you as a purely pop

29:51

at all. I think it lives in its

29:53

own world. Yeah,

29:55

well and it's a sort of proto-rock

29:57

song, it's a bridging the gap. It's

30:00

up there with my generation. Oh

30:07

really? I think right. Thank you.

30:10

But you had the privilege then of course of your next song having Jeff

30:12

Beck on it. Yeah, I

30:14

mean really the greatest. God

30:16

rest his soul. What

30:18

a player and you know they originally had

30:20

a because it has a very sort of

30:23

Indian feel to it

30:25

that opening riff and

30:28

they had a sit up there in but

30:31

you must have worked with a lot of classical musicians. A

30:34

lot of them don't understand the sort of

30:36

like one, two, three, pop, one. You

30:39

know they just I don't know what it is but

30:43

this sit up player couldn't

30:45

get the feel of it at all and

30:49

Jeff said I can do that of

30:51

course. Did he? So he played it. But

30:54

it doesn't quite funny thing to do

30:56

to get in any player of a

30:58

stringed instrument in that band which is

31:00

all about. Yeah, it was

31:02

a brave move. Yeah,

31:05

dump the harpsichord, let's get a sit

31:07

up. Yeah, that's right.

31:11

Yeah, but yeah there you go. They

31:14

were quite experimental

31:16

with their production wisest that I have to say.

31:18

Oh and didn't you have a funny thing on

31:20

top of the box? With

31:22

the yard bird. With the mocking box. So

31:25

yeah. Well in fact too and you were

31:27

in another bird. Yeah, the mocking birds. Yeah.

31:30

What is it with the birds? I

31:32

don't know. The mocking birds were a you

31:34

know we sometimes

31:37

were invited to the top

31:39

of the pop studio which was in

31:41

Manchester originally. It

31:44

was a converted church in Dickinson

31:47

Road in Manchester, I remember that for some

31:49

reason. But one time we

31:51

were on, I think we did it two or three times. You

31:54

were the warm up act right? The

31:56

warm up, yeah so they had to set

31:58

up the lights and cameras and everything else.

32:01

So to keep the sort of invited audience

32:03

entertained, we'd play a few songs. And

32:06

on one of these occasions, the yard

32:09

birds were actually

32:12

on and doing For Your Love, which

32:15

was great. And so people have said, didn't you

32:17

feel weird or wasn't it odd you said like you should have

32:19

been doing it? I said no, it

32:21

was absolutely not blown away. It was

32:23

brilliant. Did you go and introduce yourself? Did

32:25

you do it in your warm-up? No, there. Introduce

32:28

yourself, Graham. I

32:32

don't remember. You know, it's a very

32:34

vague period. I did sort

32:36

of meet them and talk to them only

32:39

on one occasion. I remember meeting them in

32:41

a pub in London. And

32:44

I was a very, very shy boy. And

32:47

I don't know, I just felt really weird. You

32:49

know, they were like, you know, the

32:51

yard birds for God's sake. You think they'd want to

32:53

come up to you and go, God, man, you've you

32:55

thank you for my career. I

32:57

can't actually remember that happening.

33:00

Other artists have who have

33:02

recorded their songs.

33:05

But I don't remember that. But I have no I

33:07

have no problem with that. I was just

33:09

honored to. I mean, I was a massive fan

33:12

of the other anyway. So to have

33:14

them record one of my songs or actually three

33:16

that did or. Right. I

33:19

guess eventually they started writing themselves like Shape of Things.

33:21

Was that? Yeah. Shape of Things.

33:23

Yeah. They learnt from you. Well,

33:25

even that, because that has that thing of

33:27

of two of two different very different sections.

33:30

Yeah, they did. They were I think they were inspired

33:32

by that. I mean, I'd obviously heard it somewhere else.

33:35

I mean, we're always I don't want to say

33:37

we're I like to use to I was

33:39

inspired by rather than I stole the idea.

33:41

Yeah, of course. And how did

33:43

your relationship with the Hollies come about? Because

33:45

you wrote Bus Stop for them. The

33:48

Hollies were managed

33:51

by they were actually in

33:53

Stockport. South their manager.

33:56

I think that's where they were based on

33:59

their manager. a guy called Michael

34:01

Cohen had a shop called

34:03

the Toggery. And the

34:05

Hollies used to go in there. That's

34:08

so, yeah, yeah, it's Toggery. And

34:13

they'd heard, you know, I've heard different

34:15

stories and I can't remember. The

34:18

Hollies had already recorded, looked

34:21

through a window, which they

34:23

got via our publisher. And

34:26

then they came, I

34:28

think it was Tony Hicks and

34:30

Graham Lash came around my flat

34:32

to listen to some songs. And

34:35

I don't remember actually taking

34:37

anything. I've taken one song, a song

34:40

called School Girl, which they did record.

34:43

It was never released. But the

34:45

main thing that happened to me was

34:48

that the Mockingbirds were supporting Hollies at

34:50

Stoke Town Hall. And they said, have you

34:52

got any other songs? And yeah,

34:55

I've written one specially for you. And they

34:57

said, let's hear it. So we went into

34:59

what I remember is like the

35:01

smallest quietest place backstage, which was an

35:03

action. There's a lot of noise for

35:06

some reason, which was in the loop.

35:08

And I played them myself and

35:11

said, that's great. Can you make a demo of

35:13

it and send it to us, which I did.

35:16

And that started, that really that was

35:18

a major thing for the Hollies because

35:20

Graham Lash has always that was the

35:23

black chair and changed his life because

35:25

of the hit in America. Wow. So there

35:27

would be no Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young

35:30

or any of those. If it hadn't been

35:32

for you taking them in the toilet to

35:34

play them best. I took him in the

35:36

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36:11

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36:13

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at Nordstrom in store or

36:46

online at nordstrom.com. You

36:52

saw yourself pretty much then, I would have thought,

36:54

as a songwriter for sale. Yeah. That's

36:56

what you want to be. I was

36:58

very happy to be a songwriter. People said

37:00

to me, oh, doesn't it, you

37:02

know, earth you like with the Yardbirds and Top of

37:05

the Cops that other people are recording your songs, you

37:07

could have had a hit with them yourself. Well,

37:10

I thought, there's no guarantee

37:12

of that. I mean, I'm with

37:14

massive fans of the Hollies

37:16

and Herman Sirmitz and

37:19

the Hollies, the Yardbirds,

37:21

I mean, and I was very

37:23

happy for them to be recording the songs. And

37:26

you're a bass player by this point, though, aren't you?

37:28

Well, I've been a bass player for a long time

37:30

because I had a Reeboks

37:32

tape recorder and it was, you

37:35

know, bouncing tracks and

37:38

making demos and I wanted to have a

37:40

bass on it. So I thought, well, I

37:42

could do that. That's basically the extent of

37:45

your bass playing career. That's

37:47

great. That's great. I need to

37:49

bounce on it. I need to make Reeboks. Great, great.

37:51

Thanks a lot. Yeah. I'd

37:54

already, you know, taking

37:57

notice of like James

37:59

Jameson. Cartney, you know, all the

38:01

other great bass players and was kind

38:03

of loved by how important the bass

38:05

is as you and I know. So

38:08

I was a bit intrigued by it, you know.

38:10

Guy texted me yesterday and he said, Art

38:12

for Art's sake man, that bass on the

38:15

intro is incredible. Yeah,

38:17

well actually that's not me. Ahhh!

38:21

No, was it Art for Art's sake? Yes, yes. Yes

38:23

it was Art for Art. It's actually

38:26

Eric playing, I've got

38:28

a six string, I've found a six string bass

38:30

and Eric played it because we were more of a

38:33

kind of a lead line thing. Oh,

38:35

it's a six string, that's quite surprising. It's

38:37

funny you say that because it reminds me

38:39

of the way David Gilmour plays bass. That's

38:42

quite funny. Oh right, okay. David's actually a very, very good

38:44

bass. Yeah. But so what,

38:46

because you've always played a Rickenbacker haven't

38:48

you? Well the first

38:51

bass I had was a

38:53

Precision but I

38:55

fell in love with the Rickenbacker mainly through McCartney

38:57

when he... I was gonna, right that was my

38:59

next question wasn't it because of McCartney. So

39:02

that started me on with the Rickenbacker

39:04

but I never actually got on with

39:06

Precision's but I love Jazz Bass. So

39:09

on stage I use the Jazz Bass

39:12

with round wound strings and the

39:14

Rickenbacker with flat ones. So Graham you go...

39:16

That's the correct answer. You

39:20

go off to America don't

39:22

you to sort of get involved in a songwriting

39:25

project. Yeah, yeah, yes. An

39:27

interesting thing this is sort

39:30

of I'd already become a

39:32

partner in Strawberry Studios which

39:34

was started off by Eric

39:36

Stewart and Peter Tattersall. And

39:39

then I went to America to work

39:42

with some people called Kazlitz

39:44

and Katz who were

39:46

famous for bubble gum music. Like

39:50

yummy yummy yummy I've got love in my

39:52

tummy. Yeah, Ohio Press. Ohio

39:54

Express. Oh, I got to express sorry.

39:56

Very strange them asking

39:59

me. And I think the reason

40:01

was they wanted to change their

40:03

output and make it more sort

40:05

of British, more

40:08

mainstream pop. I don't know

40:10

what their motivation was. It

40:12

wasn't artistically, it wasn't

40:15

the greatest period of my life,

40:17

but it did have a very

40:19

important upside in that. I

40:21

was, well, you're in New York. I was in New York.

40:23

Well, it wasn't that. I got actually was

40:25

there for, I can't remember how long I was there

40:27

for, but I got fell up there and

40:30

said, I'm part of a studio

40:32

in the UK working with

40:34

some other musicians. What I want to do is take

40:36

these songs and I'm going to do, we'll make the

40:38

records in Stockport

40:41

it was. And

40:43

that was working with Eric and Kevin

40:45

and Lyle on those records.

40:48

So this is pre-10cc. So although

40:50

there were many other things that brought

40:53

us together, that certainly was something that

40:56

definitely brought us together in that we were

40:58

in the studio making music together. This is

41:00

long before you were basically the first kind

41:02

of gang of guys who had a studio

41:05

back in this time. And I think this,

41:07

this feeds so much into why 10cc with

41:09

a band they were. No one had that.

41:12

No, there's no doubt about it without the

41:14

studio. There's lots of

41:16

reasons why we wouldn't have existed. But one of the

41:18

main ones was that without the

41:20

studio, we wouldn't have existed. It was

41:22

our playground and boy

41:25

did we play. But you

41:27

know, it's interesting because you say that you

41:29

were doing bubblegum with, you know, the Mindbenders,

41:31

Ohio Express. Actually you sang on one of

41:33

those songs. Actually I did find a funny

41:35

picture because there's, they got a band, because

41:37

there was no such band as Ohio Players,

41:39

was there? Express, I mean, sorry. They

41:43

had to get a band in. They got this

41:45

band in, I think they were America, called Timothy

41:47

and the Royals, which are totally Austin Powers. We

41:50

do that picture. Right. Yeah,

41:52

so everything was like a lot of things

41:54

that we know now. It was not

41:57

the people that you see performing on the

41:59

TV. It was session musicians in

42:02

the studio and then, you know, someone like the

42:04

Monkeys in a way, a

42:06

kind of a manufactured

42:09

band. But, oh, nothing wrong

42:11

with the Monkeys, I have to say. But, you

42:14

know, we were led to, the

42:16

public was led to believe that they were playing on

42:18

the rock board. You know, what's interesting is that you

42:21

say you were doing bubblegum, but in

42:23

a way, that's kind of what happens

42:25

on the first 10cc album, is it?

42:27

Because Donna and rubber bullets, you know,

42:29

had a 50s pastiche. Yeah,

42:32

we love pastiche, I have

42:34

to say. But,

42:37

you know, it was, I think the

42:39

main thing was looking back, it brought us

42:41

together as to what became

42:43

10cc and it was also good business

42:46

for the studio. It kept, you know,

42:48

it was important. Because how was it?

42:50

You all had shares in the studio?

42:53

No, it was just myself, Peter

42:56

and Eric, who

42:58

were the studio owners. We did

43:00

eventually our agents, Canada

43:04

Street Enterprises, who were the agents of

43:06

10cc, got involved as well as the

43:08

studio expanded. So is this where, is

43:11

Hot Legs already happened? The sort of,

43:13

you know, Hot Legs happened while I

43:15

was in America working with Kaznits Cats.

43:18

They had actually were experimenting

43:21

with a new four track that

43:23

we had in the studio. And

43:25

Dick Lee, he, who was I think with Bona

43:28

Graham or I can't remember what label it was

43:30

with, happened to be in the studio. It's one

43:33

of those stories where he's talking

43:35

to somebody in the studio and he can hear this Neanderthal

43:38

man playing and he's going, what's that?

43:40

It's a smash. That's

43:43

when A&R man said, I've

43:45

just heard something. It's a smash. Anyway,

43:48

he was right. And

43:52

that became, yes, so Hot Legs had

43:54

a big hit with the Neanderthal man. They

43:57

were offered a tour with the Moody Blues

43:59

last year. me to join to play

44:02

with them and from

44:05

then on we just stuck together. It

44:07

was the separation between the songwriting teams.

44:10

That was obvious right from the beginning, was

44:12

it? Not really. I

44:15

mean, a lot of

44:17

the songs are myself and Eric and the

44:19

other team being Kevin and Lo, but there

44:21

are a lot of songs where Eric writes

44:23

with Lo, I've written with Kevin, I've

44:26

written with Lo, I've written with Kevin Lo. So

44:28

it was mixed up, but if you look at the

44:31

big hits you'll see the two

44:33

separate teams. Well, yeah, you

44:37

and Eric are very much

44:39

the songwriters and the more

44:42

arch-comedic stuff comes from the other two. But

44:44

what I think is the great crossover is

44:47

that rhyming thing of yours, which I think

44:49

is so important, especially on the kind of

44:51

more Lo and

44:54

Kevin sort of tumour. The lyrics

44:57

are always clever. No, lyrics are

44:59

always brilliant. I think Kevin

45:01

and Lo had written a lot

45:04

of, most of Rubber Bullets, but

45:06

wanted a bridge, you

45:09

know, a middle eight, I hate middle

45:11

eight, and to a middle eight bridge.

45:14

Because it means that it's got to be eight bars

45:16

long. So it's got to be eight bars long. Bridge

45:20

two. It could be a middle ten or

45:22

something. No, it's just, yeah,

45:24

middle. I hate the American use of a word bridge.

45:28

We all understand what it means. Anyway,

45:32

so I wrote this middle part to

45:34

the song, but I did

45:36

come up with a very good part

45:39

of a verse that says, we've

45:42

all got balls and brains, but some's got

45:44

balls and chains, which is

45:46

in part Rubber Bullets. Yeah, yeah. I

45:48

mean, what were the influences? I mean,

45:50

was it Zapper? There

45:53

was Zapper, there was

45:55

Steely Dan. There was

45:57

Steely Dan. There were different

45:59

influences. influences. I mean for myself, the

46:02

common influence was the Beatles, no

46:04

doubt about that. But for myself, it

46:07

was people like Bert Bachman and Al

46:09

David, Jim Webb, Paul

46:11

Simon, you know, like the sort of

46:14

the songwriting greats really. Because

46:16

you've always had that very interesting chord

46:19

thing, which I think was later

46:22

on, which Andrew Gold is the

46:24

perfect. Yeah. Yeah. It was almost like, which

46:26

is people like Todd Runggren, I would say.

46:29

I'm a chord. Yeah.

46:32

No, you are very, your use of chords

46:34

is absolutely fantastic. But yeah, so also, I

46:36

was going to say, someone like, were

46:38

you involved in the lyrics of Wall Street Shuffle?

46:40

Yeah. That was your song. That's

46:43

so arch and so funny. Yeah, it's funny. And

46:45

it's funny, and it's funny how it's still used

46:47

because it's still sort of relevant, you know, to

46:49

the day. But

46:52

whenever there's some sort of financial crisis,

46:54

you know, there was seem to play

46:56

it all quite often. There

46:58

was a feeling it looks as an

47:01

observer when you get to sheet music, which

47:03

is your first sort of really successful album.

47:06

Yeah. That you

47:08

and Eric had the singles and

47:10

Graham and Lowell had the album tracks.

47:14

Was there a friction appearing in

47:16

that? No, you know,

47:19

we had a very for a long

47:21

period, had a

47:23

very healthy relationship with

47:25

each other artistically in that whoever

47:28

wrote the song, we

47:30

would never reject a song. It was like,

47:32

if you wrote it, if you think it's

47:34

good enough, fine, we'll do it. However, I

47:36

reserved the right to say, listen,

47:38

I think, can we just change? Can

47:40

you repeat that section

47:43

again? It's like a waste. I remember

47:45

saying that to Cabellol so many times.

47:47

That part is so brilliant. You've got

47:49

to repeat it somewhere down the line.

47:51

So we would help rearranging the song.

47:54

We might suggest a different chord or

47:56

something or, you know, but

47:58

all the production ideas came. from the four of

48:00

us, basically we'd adopt the song as our own.

48:03

Whoever wrote it. And the lovely thing is of

48:05

course you can do all this in the studio,

48:07

actually just making the record as you go, which

48:09

is my thing to make charge because you own

48:11

the studio. Yeah, that's right. So we had that

48:14

freedom. There was no pressure

48:16

like, oh, come on boys, the next session's in,

48:18

you've got to get out. I mean, we'd often

48:20

work in the evenings when no one else was

48:22

coming in. That was great. Yeah,

48:24

because what was it very much

48:26

a working studio? Was there a

48:29

lot of outside stuff going in?

48:31

Yeah, I mean famously, while we

48:33

were recording sheet music, McCartney was

48:35

in with Mike McGarry's brother recording

48:37

an album in the evening and we were recording

48:39

during the day. So the

48:42

studio was absolutely crammed with gear.

48:44

You could hardly move in there.

48:47

And the McCartney was around. Poor McGarry. The McCartney

48:49

was around a lot. Poor

48:54

was around a lot. And

48:57

I think I can feel him

49:01

inside, although he didn't plan anything, the

49:03

fact that he was around so much.

49:06

I think that influenced what we were doing. Was

49:08

he playing drums on that album? Was

49:10

his drum kit set up? There was

49:13

a drum kit there, but we

49:15

actually used that drum kit on Wall Street

49:17

Shuffle. Had a very loose snare. Was

49:20

it? That was the

49:22

days of that sound. We

49:26

used his melotron. We

49:28

didn't lick anything. Not

49:30

the melotron that was outside the centre. He

49:33

shipped it all the way up to Stockpool.

49:35

Well because Mike McGarry lived in Liverpool. They

49:39

just come in from Liverpool every day, so it

49:41

wasn't that far. So was Lily the Pink recorded

49:43

there? No, no, it wasn't.

49:46

No. But there were a lot

49:48

of, you have to look at the history

49:50

of Strawberry Studios to see who recorded there.

49:53

Particularly a lot of the black

49:55

people like Joy Division, the Smiths. Yeah,

49:58

it basically made it. that

50:00

whole, that whole, you know,

50:02

post-punk thing possible. I mean, incredibly

50:04

important. It's very important. And cultural

50:07

history. I actually

50:09

attended an event in

50:12

Stockport on last Friday,

50:14

which at Stockport is

50:17

the town of culture at the

50:19

moment. And in

50:21

their museum, they had an

50:23

exhibit on strawberry studios. And

50:26

the amount of people that have

50:29

recorded there was, I mean, I was even surprised.

50:31

I didn't know half of them

50:34

could record there. So the studio

50:36

became really important for

50:39

musicians in the north of England. Did you?

50:41

Basically, we set the studio up because we

50:44

didn't want to have to come down to

50:46

London all the time. Simple as that.

50:48

Did you put the desk in? We wanted a

50:50

proper studio and it was. Did you put the

50:52

desk in and all the equipment? Is it all

50:54

your? Yeah, yeah, we put the, yeah, we had,

50:56

we had, we've had a few desks.

50:58

I love that. Don't you guy that line from

51:00

10cc and, you

51:03

know, art rock through to Joy Division still

51:05

doing art rock. Yeah. And beyond

51:07

the Smiths and the Buscock. That's Buscock. Yeah, the Buscock's

51:09

recording. I mean, none more important than the Buscock.

51:13

Yeah. Because there was a

51:15

linchpin. It was the Sex Pistols going to Manchester.

51:17

When, when did you let it go? The studio.

51:21

Well, what happened was that Kevin

51:23

Lowell and Eric decided to

51:26

move to the home counters

51:28

and I didn't want to

51:30

leave Manchester. Good

51:34

on you. Good on you.

51:36

Yeah. And we thought,

51:38

well, let's open another studio, which became

51:40

Strawberry South, which although was

51:43

a ultimately a

51:45

financial disaster, did produce

51:49

the Deceptive Ben's album and the Bleu

51:51

Ditorious album, which had Good

51:54

Morning Church, The Things We Do For Love and

51:58

probably most famously Dreadnought Hollis. day.

52:02

But what happened was that Kevin

52:04

and Lowell left the band immediately.

52:06

We sort of started to build

52:08

the studio in dorky. They

52:10

just had had enough and

52:12

but Eric and I, after much debate,

52:14

decided to carry on under

52:16

the name 10cc. Yeah, and

52:18

then come up with a massive hit

52:21

straight away. That was lucky. I just

52:23

want to ask you about art rock

52:25

because you know that's how you look

52:27

at the genre that 10cc has seen

52:30

in. And was this something

52:33

you were conscious of? There was only

52:35

so much art you can have that

52:37

you might lose commerciality and how you played

52:39

that game of you know a song like

52:42

I'm Mandy Flyme or Art for Art Fake.

52:45

You couldn't rip that nowadays. You couldn't put a song

52:47

like that. You couldn't do it nowadays but actually the

52:50

joy of 10cc was we didn't

52:52

write for you. We wrote for me. It

52:55

was for us. It was for our own

52:58

pleasure and we never

53:00

ever took notice of any trends or

53:02

anything like that. And we were lucky

53:04

enough to but what we produced

53:07

people liked enough to buy records

53:09

of. And got played on the radio.

53:12

Was it because you stayed

53:14

in touch certainly with Kevin the

53:16

double time. Things didn't get personally

53:18

bad. Well

53:21

Kevin and I left. I

53:23

was very upset. I'm still

53:25

upset actually that they left

53:27

because Kevin and I have talked

53:29

about this. You know we've remained very good, very

53:31

close. How we

53:33

could have handled the whole thing better. Maybe

53:36

Kevin and I should have taken a year

53:38

out or whatever and we could have reconvened.

53:40

But there was a pressure from the record

53:42

companies to produce another album which I met

53:45

another tour. More rehearsal. They

53:47

got there were two reasons really why they

53:49

left. One they got fed

53:51

up with this sort of constant cycle. It

53:53

was repetitive and I think they got bored

53:56

by it. And the other thing

53:58

was that they invented this

54:00

attachment for the guitar or the

54:02

gizmak. And they made an album

54:05

which ended up as being

54:07

a triple album and it was

54:09

just taking forever to finish and

54:11

we needed to get on with recording 10cc

54:13

and it was like you've got

54:15

to make a choice guys and we've had

54:18

it. But Eric and I

54:20

carried on to great success. We've jumped

54:22

ahead slightly because we can't have you

54:24

on without talking about I'm not in

54:26

love honestly. You must be driven mad

54:28

by it. As

54:31

you are, you've got to do it though haven't

54:33

you? Yeah,

54:38

but obviously you and Eric sit down and write

54:40

this song. Who comes up with the idea

54:43

of the production? Because the production

54:45

really was so unique. It

54:47

was really Kevin and Lowell between them

54:49

I think. I think it

54:52

was Kevin who said why don't

54:54

we do it with voice just with voices. Oh

54:56

what a great idea. How are we going to do that? We

54:58

don't know yet but we'll figure it out. So

55:02

the idea was that we put a backing track

55:05

down, do it with voices

55:07

and then because we needed something to sing

55:09

to and then take the backing track

55:11

off and we'd be left with all the voices. So

55:14

we did the backing track which was done

55:17

very quickly which was Eric playing Fenler

55:20

Rhodes, me playing rhythm. That's

55:22

a particularly lovely Rhodes sound. It's

55:24

one of my favourite Rhodes sounds.

55:26

We used a, we had these

55:28

orange sort of phaser boxes. It

55:32

was in stereo that so each channel

55:34

out of Fenler Rhodes in

55:36

stereo went to a separate

55:39

track. So that's the beautiful

55:41

sound. Perfect obviously

55:43

for the record. I played a

55:46

rhythm guitar on an electric

55:48

guitar and Kevin

55:50

played a MOOC, a

55:53

Poly MOOC synthesizer on a kind of

55:55

bass drum sound and that was

55:57

the track which was going to be the... the

56:00

idea was to take that off as I say later on.

56:03

But even when we'd done that, there

56:05

was something we could tell there

56:07

was some sort of magic in there. And

56:09

then we started putting on the voices, which

56:13

required us to sing

56:16

each note, multitrack it, make

56:18

a loop of it and

56:20

spin it back into the multitrack. So

56:23

without going into too much detail, so that

56:25

on the, I think

56:27

it was done on a 16 track, we'd

56:29

have like 11 tracks

56:32

of a multi,

56:34

you know, of lots of us singing. Sixteen

56:36

track, you're only on a 16 track? I

56:38

think we're on 16 track. And of course, did

56:40

you literally loop the tape so it was

56:42

going around and around? Yes, we made it

56:44

a tape loop of the one of each

56:46

of the 11 or 12 notes

56:49

or however many we use. And

56:51

spun them back into the multitrack so

56:53

that eventually, so we had

56:56

the backing track, and

56:58

then we had all these notes. And

57:00

but we needed to mix all those

57:03

notes down to a stereo pair. And

57:06

to do that, you've but then you have to

57:08

play the desk like a keyboard. Exactly. So

57:10

the four of us were on the

57:13

desk playing, using the faders

57:15

as bringing up these different notes

57:17

at different times. It was

57:19

a joy to make because of course, today, if

57:21

you wanted to do that, you just get a

57:23

sampler and bang, you got it immediately.

57:27

What was brilliant about this was we listened

57:29

to it grow with each

57:31

note. And it was just

57:34

beautiful with all of them playing this wonderful

57:37

clash of voices that were so

57:40

amazing. And in fact, throughout the

57:42

track, it never actually disappears. It's really,

57:44

really low in the track. There's this constant

57:48

sound. You can't

57:50

hear it, but it's kind of it's

57:52

there. But obviously, you

57:54

hear it when you hear it when they play,

57:56

you hear it when they play when the faders

57:59

are up. never actually

58:01

disappeared. And when

58:03

we finished the recording, I

58:06

mean, we knew we had something great.

58:09

Didn't realise its commercial potential at all.

58:12

But we used to turn the lights off in the

58:15

control room and lie on the floor and listen

58:17

to it back

58:20

a few times. We thought

58:22

it was brilliant. Tony, life

58:24

changed. And if anything, you

58:26

were the absolute inheritors

58:29

of what the Beatles had tried to achieve

58:31

or was beginning to discover in

58:34

studios from Sgt. Pepper's. This

58:36

was everything that

58:38

they'd given you in a way, wasn't it? Correct.

58:41

Yes, correct. Whereas normally you would

58:43

rehearse a song in a rehearsal

58:45

room, go into the band and

58:48

record what you had already

58:50

rehearsed. Whereas this way, we started from

58:53

scratch, really. We had the song,

58:55

of course, but the production ideas

58:57

were just came and grew

58:59

while we were

59:01

in the studio. There was no preconception

59:05

other than the voices. But of course that

59:07

changed because we obviously still have the backing

59:10

track on the record that you know. Because

59:12

the way the studio was built, wasn't it?

59:14

It was built, it was the first one

59:16

where the studio, the actual control room was

59:18

big enough for you to all be in.

59:21

No. Was that the next

59:23

one? No. No,

59:26

we had a, there was a control room and

59:29

I mean, we did a lot of recording in the control

59:31

room. Yeah. You know, I would

59:33

always try and put the bass on as late as

59:35

possible because I

59:37

always felt like the bass kind

59:40

of got absorbed into the track as everything

59:42

else was being recorded. And then you would

59:44

might have to re-equeue it. Whereas if I

59:46

put the bass on nearer to the end,

59:49

it's a better sound. Do

59:51

you know what? Funny things, Graham, because you know,

59:53

being an 80s boy, most of the sessions I

59:56

used to do were towards the end of the

59:58

recording, me in the control room. room with

1:00:00

the producer, not out there with the drummer. You're

1:00:02

absolutely right because you know. Yeah,

1:00:05

yeah. How did you ever worry about

1:00:07

translating that into the live onto

1:00:09

stage? You know, how could you make

1:00:12

it? It never inhibited us. We never

1:00:14

said, well, we better not do that

1:00:16

because we'll never reproduce it live.

1:00:19

So no, that didn't worry us. And

1:00:21

how did you do something like that? And also now we

1:00:23

have ways. Yes, but then, in those ways. Well, yeah, no

1:00:25

way. In those ways. Well, yeah, no way.

1:00:27

But back then, yes, the exact guy's making a very

1:00:30

good point. How did you do it in those days?

1:00:32

How did you get out and play those songs? Well,

1:00:34

the only thing that we've ever... Well,

1:00:37

we'd compromise. We'd have

1:00:39

to compromise and prioritise

1:00:43

what we could do. I mean,

1:00:45

if we'd got four acoustic guitars

1:00:48

playing, well, there'd only be one. Or

1:00:50

non... I mean, I'm not in love. You could have used a

1:00:52

melotron. You could have actually... We could

1:00:54

have done, but actually that was the

1:00:56

one track where we thought

1:00:59

we didn't like the principle of using

1:01:02

backing tracks live.

1:01:04

But because there was no other way

1:01:07

of doing it, we did. Yeah. It was

1:01:09

pretty much frowned upon, wasn't it? Yeah, I

1:01:11

still frown upon it. But I think that's

1:01:14

an exceptional circumstance. I

1:01:16

think anybody would... That's

1:01:19

Kevin. That's Kevin. All right.

1:01:22

Take Kevin again. Anybody

1:01:24

would forgive us for

1:01:27

doing that because we want the listeners, the audience's

1:01:30

experience to be the... The thing is, I'm not

1:01:32

in love, stands up as a song. Take all

1:01:34

that away and just use... Correct. You

1:01:37

know, you play that on a piano or

1:01:39

on a guitar, it's an amazing song. Well,

1:01:41

I do. I do an acoustic show

1:01:43

called Heart Full of Songs, which is

1:01:45

myself and three other musicians, where I

1:01:47

do an acoustic version myself. And obviously

1:01:49

there's no backing tracks or anything like

1:01:51

that. But as you say, the song

1:01:53

stands up on its own. And I don't

1:01:56

know whether you found this, Gary, but

1:01:59

if you've got a good... song, but kind of the

1:02:01

production ideas, it inspires

1:02:03

great production ideas. And I'm not

1:02:05

in love with one of those

1:02:07

songs. And one thing I should

1:02:10

say about it, the record that

1:02:12

you know is the second recording of it. We

1:02:14

did a previous recording of it in a kind

1:02:17

of a Boston over rhythm, almost

1:02:20

like a backery type. And it

1:02:22

didn't work at all. And

1:02:25

unfortunately, like everything else

1:02:27

that we didn't like, that we

1:02:29

did, we erased it. Yes, yes. Oh,

1:02:32

we didn't want anybody to get hold of it. But

1:02:35

that would have been a nice thing too. I remember

1:02:37

being in a studio with Trevor Horn, and when he

1:02:39

didn't want somebody to say burn it. Burn it. Yeah,

1:02:41

he hated options. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:46

And then you've got no, you don't have to worry

1:02:48

about it anymore, because it's gone. I

1:02:50

like yeah, we bumped into

1:02:52

we've just got we're in Australia

1:02:55

in the autumn. Nick

1:02:57

and we bumped into Rick Fen. I know. I

1:02:59

know you did. Because

1:03:01

I was recently on tour with brick

1:03:04

we just we came back last week,

1:03:07

a week today from a three week European

1:03:09

tour. Yes, and Rick

1:03:12

told me about that. Yeah, lovely guy.

1:03:14

Australia clearly suits him. He looks amazing.

1:03:16

No, he looks great. And he's been

1:03:18

out there like over 20 years ago.

1:03:20

But I'm actually, but he comes

1:03:22

out, he's got God bless him, he comes

1:03:24

over here. For him, it's a commute, you

1:03:26

know, to come over here with the plan.

1:03:29

And he's fantastic. The thing is, we

1:03:31

always do the same thing. He comes

1:03:33

in the day before we're going to

1:03:35

start. We got for a curry that

1:03:37

night, he falls asleep in the curry, and then

1:03:39

I sort of bring him out. He stayed with

1:03:41

us. And then the next one he

1:03:43

gets up and off we go. But I

1:03:46

mentioned him because obviously he joined the band when you

1:03:48

became really a two piece didn't

1:03:50

you after? Yeah, yeah, after Kevin and all

1:03:52

left. So we'd had things

1:03:55

to do for love was a hit and we decided

1:03:57

to go on the road. So Rick

1:04:01

and Paul Burgess, who

1:04:03

made the Deceptive Bends with me and

1:04:06

Eric, we decided to go on the

1:04:08

road and Rick was in that band

1:04:10

and was one of my oldest

1:04:12

musical companions and friends.

1:04:15

So I've known him since 1976. Did

1:04:18

the band feel very different? Because apart from, I mean,

1:04:20

there are songs like Autonomous Alcoholic.

1:04:22

Yes. We still have

1:04:24

the sort of very arch, I think. Would

1:04:28

you say you became more of a conventional band? I

1:04:31

think it changed. And we lost 50% of the

1:04:33

band. It

1:04:37

wasn't like, well, we've lost someone

1:04:39

who plays the drums only and someone

1:04:41

who plays keyboards only. Kevin

1:04:44

and I were... Glad you didn't

1:04:47

say that. We were fellow songwriters,

1:04:49

producers, singers, players, you

1:04:51

know. So

1:04:53

it was a big loss. That's why it

1:04:56

was debated whether we should have the right

1:04:58

to return the name. But anyway, we

1:05:00

obviously did. But

1:05:03

it did change. Yes, it felt different. But

1:05:05

we were very determined to prove

1:05:08

ourselves that we could still produce

1:05:11

the goods. Well, you

1:05:13

were straight out of the blocks with the

1:05:16

things you do for love. The first, I

1:05:18

think, Good Morning Judge, which was sort of

1:05:20

my first, I think,

1:05:22

good morning judge, which was sort of mine ahead. But

1:05:24

things very full of was a big hit. And

1:05:27

Director Lock Holiday was as well, wasn't it? Yeah, Director Lock

1:05:29

Holiday was number one. Number one.

1:05:31

Yeah. I mean, one thing

1:05:33

that's interesting about 10CC, we had three number

1:05:35

ones with three different singers. Yes. Yes.

1:05:39

Lull sang Rubber Bullets, Eric

1:05:41

sang I'm Not in

1:05:43

Love and I sang Grab a Holiday.

1:05:46

Ironically, Kevin has an amazing voice. Well,

1:05:48

you took the words out of my

1:05:50

mouth. Yeah. To

1:05:53

my mind, Kevin has the best voice.

1:05:56

Wonderful voice. Can I

1:05:58

make one really, really annoying? pissy

1:06:00

little bass player point. Oh,

1:06:02

thank you very much. I

1:06:05

die. Because I love your

1:06:07

bass player, because your

1:06:09

bass player can be so iceberg, by the way. Special

1:06:11

mention for iceberg. Wow, really,

1:06:14

really lovely. But on Dreadlock Holiday, what's

1:06:16

interesting is how, because the line is great

1:06:18

and suits the song properly, but it's

1:06:20

interesting you didn't lean towards any sort

1:06:22

of reggae sound on the bass. No.

1:06:26

Still with a pick and quite clipped. I

1:06:28

always play with, occasionally, if it's

1:06:30

something slow, I play with

1:06:32

my fingers, but really, I'm a pick guy. And

1:06:35

so, yes, I know. You're right.

1:06:38

You didn't think to dial the bass up

1:06:40

a bit, you know? I don't know. It

1:06:42

just didn't feel... I'm sure

1:06:44

we would have done that because of

1:06:46

how heavy and sub-bass

1:06:49

the basses are on

1:06:51

the reggae records. If

1:06:56

we ever remix it, I'll see what I can do.

1:06:58

There we go. Thank you. Thank you. And

1:07:01

how was it? We'll do the guy... We'll do the Prat

1:07:03

mix. How was

1:07:05

it with Andrew Gold? Did you form this band

1:07:07

called Wax, didn't you? Yeah, I loved Andrew. Andrew,

1:07:11

we met Andrew because our American

1:07:13

record company wanted us to work

1:07:16

with an American writer-producer. Andrew

1:07:19

was suggested. I absolutely jumped

1:07:21

at it because I was

1:07:23

a big fan of his anyway. And

1:07:26

he fitted writing with... You

1:07:28

could see exactly why. He fitted writing

1:07:30

with his... I love your

1:07:32

writing. Yeah. Well, we did an album, as far

1:07:34

as Nancy C is concerned, we did

1:07:36

an album called Ten Out of Ten. There

1:07:39

were three singles from that album, none

1:07:42

of which, I have to say, were successful.

1:07:44

But those three singles were

1:07:46

co-written and co-produced with Andrew. So that

1:07:48

sort of proves it was a good

1:07:50

call. And

1:07:53

it was especially good for

1:07:55

me because not long after that

1:07:57

album, Eric and I kind of fell out.

1:08:00

and I couldn't take it

1:08:02

anymore. And the

1:08:05

first person I called was Andrew and said,

1:08:07

I've got a studio at my house, little

1:08:10

studio, nothing fancy, but do

1:08:12

you wanna come over? This was after we,

1:08:15

you know, he'd gone back to America, come over and

1:08:17

stay with me for a couple of weeks and let's

1:08:19

make some, let's have some fun, you know. And

1:08:22

he stayed for about six months actually. And

1:08:24

that really brought us together. We

1:08:26

did an album in my house, it's

1:08:29

never been released, but has some stuff

1:08:31

on it, I think. We put one

1:08:33

single out called, what

1:08:35

was it called? I can't even

1:08:38

remember the name. Anyway, I've got a senior moment there.

1:08:40

However, we did go on

1:08:42

to record an album with Phil

1:08:44

Funale produced. And we produced it,

1:08:47

yeah, I know Phil very well.

1:08:49

In fact, I've worked with him recently on a new

1:08:52

solo album. He co-wrote Tawn, didn't

1:08:54

he? He did and produced it.

1:08:57

So Andrew and I did

1:08:59

this album, which produced a track called Right

1:09:01

Between the Eyes, which was a big hit

1:09:03

in Europe, not in England so

1:09:05

much. And went on

1:09:07

to have a very, very happy, both

1:09:10

musical and personal relationship. I loved

1:09:12

Andrew. Yeah, well, you wrote a very

1:09:14

sweet song dedicated to him, didn't you?

1:09:16

Yes, Daylight. When he passed. Yeah. And

1:09:19

then Playing with Ringo, we have to

1:09:21

talk about that. I mean, that must

1:09:23

be a fanboy moment for you, isn't

1:09:26

it? A real fanboy, surreal. And I

1:09:28

wrote a song about it on my, I put

1:09:30

out an album in 2020 called, the

1:09:34

album's called Modesty for Bids. Don't mind me

1:09:36

getting a plug in there. And the opening track

1:09:38

on it is called Standing Next to Me,

1:09:41

which is about my time with Ringo and the band.

1:09:44

And it was amazing. I got a call

1:09:46

from his tour producer, who

1:09:50

asked the stuffed question, do

1:09:52

you want to join Ringo Stone, the All Star band?

1:09:55

Yeah. No. Yes. Please.

1:10:00

And it was a great experience

1:10:03

working with Ringo. He was charming,

1:10:05

he was funny, does not

1:10:07

suffer falls easily. And

1:10:09

quite a fantastic person, I must say. He's

1:10:11

got so much youthful energy. I can't believe

1:10:13

it. I mean, you see him now. He's

1:10:15

a fitness fanatic. You know, he

1:10:17

was always going to the gym, watched

1:10:20

his diet, you know. He's

1:10:22

very, very strong and sort of

1:10:24

wiry. He's all muscle. And

1:10:27

when you're playing in front, because he's so

1:10:29

distinctive as a drummer, when you're playing in

1:10:31

front of him, you could just, you could

1:10:34

hear Ringo. Ringo, I don't think there is

1:10:36

a drummer that is so complimentary to the

1:10:38

songwriter. Absolutely, absolutely.

1:10:40

And, you know, occasionally

1:10:43

you'll hear those fills

1:10:45

that only he can do. And

1:10:48

it's like, wow, this is

1:10:50

amazing, you know. I always wanted

1:10:52

to be in the Beatles. Well, I was never going

1:10:54

to be in the Beatles, but I came close

1:10:56

to it. Yeah, yeah. No, it's

1:10:59

true, because I've just lost point on

1:11:01

that. Is those things like come together,

1:11:03

he should actually have published. Oh, absolutely.

1:11:05

Who would have amazing. I

1:11:07

mean, he was very free, you

1:11:10

know, talk, he'd answer questions, you know, nerdy

1:11:13

questions. He'd

1:11:15

answer and things like, here

1:11:18

comes the sun, you know, his drum part on that.

1:11:21

Did you work it out? Did you do? No,

1:11:23

I just did it. You know, we

1:11:25

think it's so complicated. And so because

1:11:28

maybe we, you know, we can't conceive of it

1:11:30

being that easy. But like anything, you know, what's

1:11:32

easy to you is impossible

1:11:35

to somebody else. He's never thinking

1:11:37

I'm just going to lay down the right groove

1:11:39

for this. He's thinking, what is this song trying

1:11:41

to express and how does it move? And he's

1:11:44

listening to the melody all the time, isn't he?

1:11:46

Yeah, he just knows. And instinctively he does, he

1:11:48

leaves the right spaces and fills in

1:11:50

the right fills. One thing

1:11:53

I want to touch on Graham is that of

1:11:55

course you wrote two songs on

1:11:57

her fantastic last album with the amazing.

1:12:00

Yeah, I did. I used to work

1:12:02

with Guy Dorekerson, I used to work

1:12:04

there a lot. I'd love to know

1:12:06

your experience of working with her. Well,

1:12:08

I loved her. I actually met

1:12:11

her at a writers

1:12:14

week that used to be

1:12:16

organized. A Christopher thing? Yeah. Well, it

1:12:18

wasn't, no, it was before that. They

1:12:20

were organized by EMI

1:12:22

Music Publishing, who we were both published

1:12:24

by at the time. And

1:12:27

they used to have these weeks

1:12:29

where they would take like

1:12:32

maybe between 12 and 15 songwriters

1:12:34

to this sort of country house.

1:12:36

It was called Hunch and Court. Hunch

1:12:39

and Court, yes. In fact, Gary, you came

1:12:41

and I did a couple of those. Okay,

1:12:43

right. So, and I

1:12:47

was partnered with Kirstie

1:12:50

one day and with somebody else.

1:12:52

And actually, not a lot

1:12:54

happened. The third

1:12:56

person wasn't nothing wrong with that,

1:12:59

the way that person wrote, but there was something,

1:13:01

you know, a lot of songwriting partnerships and to

1:13:03

do with chemistry, you know, you can get the

1:13:06

two great writers together and nothing

1:13:08

happens. But with Kirstie, it didn't

1:13:10

happen. But we sensed that there

1:13:12

was something that we could do

1:13:15

together, maybe later on, which we

1:13:17

did. And I wrote

1:13:19

two songs with her. One was

1:13:22

called Treachery, which is on the

1:13:24

Tropical Rainstorm album, the

1:13:26

last album that she made.

1:13:28

Tropical Brainstorm. Yeah, yeah, Tropical

1:13:30

Rainstorm. And the other song

1:13:32

was called Things Happen, which

1:13:35

was a B-side of a single. The

1:13:38

songwriting day used to go around her. She lived

1:13:40

not far from me in

1:13:42

healing. And there'd be a lot

1:13:44

of chat and drinking coffee and

1:13:47

listening to sort of Samba and

1:13:50

South American music going on in the

1:13:52

background. And then we'd sit down

1:13:54

and write. And it

1:13:56

was wonderful. Yeah, wonderful. You doing

1:13:59

another album? Yeah, I'm

1:14:01

in the middle of, well actually I've nearly finished

1:14:03

it. I sort of get

1:14:05

the urge to do one every sort

1:14:08

of three or four years, so I've

1:14:10

nearly finished one now. It's what I

1:14:12

call my very expensive hobby, but I

1:14:14

love doing it. I love writing. Some

1:14:16

of the songs are just on my

1:14:18

own and I've written with other people

1:14:20

and I just absolutely adore the whole

1:14:23

thing of writing, recording.

1:14:26

It's just wonderful, so I'm very happy. And

1:14:29

is it with Phil Fornale you're working? Well

1:14:31

Phil and I have, we

1:14:34

wrote one song which was

1:14:36

very, very beatly and I said to Phil when we

1:14:38

were in the middle of it, I said, I

1:14:40

think I love someone who might play the drums

1:14:42

on this very beatily. And it is. Oh,

1:14:49

wow. Oh, amazing. Graham, it's been great having

1:14:51

you on. Thank you so much. Great

1:14:54

to speak to you, Gary and Guy. I've

1:14:56

really enjoyed it. Really, really lovely. I've really,

1:14:58

really lovely to talk to. And actually you've

1:15:00

always loomed large. It's really nice to finally

1:15:03

talk to you, Graham. Thank you so much.

1:15:06

It's a fantastic story, isn't it? Of this

1:15:08

young kid with his supportive

1:15:10

father and giving him

1:15:13

song titles and being

1:15:15

obsessed with the Beatles

1:15:17

and then having all these huge hits

1:15:19

and ending up playing with the Beatles. Now

1:15:22

that is amazing. I know. Yeah, you were getting very

1:15:24

fanboy there, weren't you? At the Ringo thing, you're jealous.

1:15:28

What's so nice was the way he was

1:15:30

talking about doing his albums now is

1:15:33

that he's still got that same boyish enthusiasm that

1:15:35

he had when he was literally a boy. Yeah,

1:15:37

yeah, yeah. And accepting that maybe they're not all

1:15:39

going to be hits, but I still have to

1:15:41

do this is the thing. I

1:15:44

wanted to make a point because when he said he

1:15:46

calls it his very expensive hobby and I would argue

1:15:48

it might be cheaper than sailing. I'd

1:15:51

also say to our listeners, by the way,

1:15:53

that first stanza that I

1:15:56

read, if you just Google Jaime Goldman, it

1:15:58

was like a very early entry. can

1:16:00

find there's that whole poem which is called Cliff

1:16:02

and the Boy and it really is a lovely

1:16:04

thing what I mean and the fact that he

1:16:06

didn't know about it till after his dad died

1:16:09

is what gift you know from

1:16:11

your dad yeah absolutely beautiful thank

1:16:14

you to Ian for producing today

1:16:16

for Gimme Sugar and yeah

1:16:19

I really enjoyed that I'll

1:16:21

be seeing you soon I would imagine yes

1:16:24

although you didn't ask me if I'd be

1:16:26

performing was I presume that some see songwriters

1:16:28

of Society of Distinguished Songwriters

1:16:30

yes it's our Christmas get-together and

1:16:33

people have to get up some

1:16:35

people can't sing a note but

1:16:37

they've written some of the biggest songs in

1:16:40

the world Don Black always

1:16:42

hosts it it's very nice

1:16:44

yes you used to invite

1:16:46

me so near

1:16:48

that year I did there was a year

1:16:50

I did that thing listen I've got to

1:16:52

get out here it's good

1:16:54

night for me and it's goodbye from them rock

1:16:57

hunters is produced by Gimme Sugar Productions

1:17:00

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