0:04

Hello Gary. Hello Guy. So

0:06

it's a North London derby today.

0:09

You're not going to be intimidated are you by the fact there's

0:12

the Camden and Islington boys.

0:14

Me? No, I'll be just feeling very smart.

0:17

Where were you from? What part of

0:19

London? Where did you grow up? Waterloo. Waterloo

0:22

of course. Waterloo. I'm Saff.

0:24

Saff. Well there's two ways of looking at

0:27

it because Waterloo is such a funny place

0:29

is that I'm either from South London

0:32

or I grew up in the shadow of the National. You

0:34

did. Yes,

0:37

I think that's more you isn't it really. I was

0:39

born in a flat between

0:41

the old and young Vicks.

0:44

So surprisingly I never really

0:47

knew much about Suggs. I never kind of bumped

0:49

into him at all. I mean

0:51

in the 80s I don't remember sort of meeting

0:54

up with Madness or doing a Top of the Pops

0:56

with him. But Chrissy boy

0:59

I did know because he was three years

1:01

above me at the same school.

1:03

He was rather mean to the young violinist.

1:06

It was quite the school yours wasn't it? It's got quite

1:08

the alumni. He was. He was rather

1:11

mean to the young violinist Neil Barnes

1:13

that was in my class. He was the only

1:15

kid who played violin and used to bring

1:17

the violin into school and obviously that kind

1:19

of riled Chris Foreman. This

1:22

kid how dare he play a violin and I think he

1:24

picked on him a bit. It turns out

1:26

that Neil Barnes ends up becoming

1:29

also successful in music

1:32

in a band called Leftfield. Oh right.

1:34

Oh there you go. So there's another. Not playing

1:37

the violin though. Not playing the violin. Playing synthesizers

1:39

and stuff. And decks. Yeah so

1:41

yeah so there's going to be some Cockney jives

1:44

and

1:44

japes and. Some oi

1:47

oi Savaloy. Savaloy. Avaladida. It'll

1:49

be great. Do you know I play.

1:52

Because I've played with Suggs only once and you

1:54

know I've played with every type of band in front of every

1:56

type of audience and this was a thing with Andy

1:58

Mackay. It was a charity thing.

1:59

there. And it was just

2:02

a field of people, a few hundred people.

2:04

And as soon as we did

2:11

the madness songs, I've never seen

2:14

anything like this where people just bounce.

2:17

And you think that's what Suggs

2:19

has looked out on his whole life, just

2:21

this weird thing of bouncing people,

2:23

like weebles. With

2:26

the Pink Floyd's fraternity, it's rather serious

2:29

people, isn't it? Always. Yeah, there's a lot

2:31

of swaying. And with binoculars looking at guitar

2:33

settings, in particular.

2:35

Fly dentists. Exactly.

2:38

Not to besmirch the wonderful Pink Floyd's fraternity.

2:41

So I suppose we should get him on.

2:43

Welcome to the Rock on Turd. Okay

2:46

guys, I'm ready. But it's a big tune

2:48

for sure. I actually wrote that originally

2:50

for Tina Turner. Of course I had gone and found

2:53

Joanne Mitchell there in Florida and brought her back. I've listened

2:55

to a few of them and they've been really good, man. I've been sitting

2:57

in the back of the car coming into London. They're brilliant.

2:59

That caused a big problem in the band actually.

3:02

I was having too much fun. Thank you

3:04

guys for still being around, still

3:06

making music, still being into it and

3:09

doing this podcast. It's fabulous.

3:11

Well, I get the feeling that us two should go for a bite.

3:15

I'm in a band now. It's called Roxy

3:17

Music. You know this thing about the 10,000 hours

3:19

of experience? Oh yeah. Get

3:21

good at something. When we recorded Arnold

3:24

Lane, we'd done about 50 hours. The

3:26

Rock on Turds podcast. With Gary Kemper. And

3:28

Guy Pratt. Keep her rockin'!

3:32

Hello mate. Hello Suggs.

3:34

Suggs,

3:37

thanks for doing this in your living, getting our producer

3:39

to come out to your living room or kitchen. What

3:41

I love is I've known Ben for a long time from

3:44

Virgin Radio days. I don't

3:46

wonder, because I don't think this service

3:48

has ever been offered to anyone else.

3:54

What I loved is we left

3:56

Virgin Radio for a long time ago. Both of us doing

3:58

a bit of DJ. come back as

4:01

veteran DJ. Yeah

4:03

right right right. 39 years old for fuck's sake.

4:05

He's this generation's Alan Freeman. Ben Fluff

4:07

Jones. Here

4:17

I am, 63 and a half you know, I mean and he's

4:19

a veteran. Anyway this is the way it

4:21

is. Yeah well done on the album. Well

4:23

done on the album. Thank you thank you mate. I

4:25

mean it's a real concept

4:27

feel to it. I love the sort of theatre of the

4:29

absurd opening and

4:32

the mention of Samuel Beckett.

4:34

I mean what brought that all together? Well

4:37

I mean I didn't want to go on about it.

4:39

Can you hear me alright? Because I can't hear myself much in

4:41

these headphones Ben. Yeah we've got you.

4:43

You've got me. Okay fine fine that's fine. We didn't

4:45

want to go on about it but we all realised we went through

4:48

a rather sort of tricky few years didn't

4:50

we? We locked down the pandemic and all that. And

4:53

we'd all written songs that were about that

4:55

period of our lives so we couldn't escape

4:57

it. But I was reading about that

4:59

period of Samuel Beckett and there was this whole

5:02

movement of the theatre of the absurd which

5:05

culminated in a French outfit

5:07

who actually wrote plays in

5:09

Gogoldegook because they were going out and they weren't

5:11

actually communicating anymore. You

5:14

know it sort of started to feel like we weren't

5:16

communicating anymore as

5:19

a society. Because you kind of hit that well

5:21

there's a hint of that in the press for the

5:23

album said like it's because

5:25

lots of people went down all sorts of rabbit

5:27

holes. I get the feeling maybe

5:30

there are some members of the band who are

5:32

having other opinions than other ones. Totally

5:35

you know I mean we almost felt

5:37

completely to pieces in terms of what we

5:39

were all going on about. But it was like

5:42

a microcosm of society that everyone

5:44

had a completely different opinion of why

5:46

and what was going on and

5:48

why we were doing what we were doing.

5:51

I remember I think it was Caitlin Moran a girl

5:53

from the Times wrote the article about

5:55

how the middle ground sort of disappeared

5:57

didn't it? It just got scorched and burnt.

6:00

And you just weren't allowed to share

6:03

any opinions with anybody else or

6:06

see two sides of an argument. But

6:09

fortunately when we got back in a rehearsal room

6:11

together, that's what happens with

6:13

music. It's an amazing healer

6:16

of so much, of society.

6:19

Even though you say about the theatre of the

6:21

absurd being how it felt during the pandemic,

6:23

and obviously that's when you were writing stuff.

6:25

Also, I can listen to

6:28

some of the lyrics on that album and that opening song

6:30

and feel that it's also about celebrity, and it's

6:32

about the ridiculousness of

6:34

what us three go through,

6:36

have gone through. The

6:40

doors are closed and we can't get out. It

6:44

doesn't most is no one's sense. No,

6:49

you might be right there. I'm sure there's, you

6:52

know, psychiatrists more

6:56

qualified than you that would probably

6:58

agree. Yeah, maybe, mate, you

7:00

don't know unconsciously, do you, what you're really

7:02

going on about? I mean, it wasn't specific.

7:05

It was about being trapped in the theatre

7:08

and not quite knowing how

7:11

or when you're going to get out. I mean, it's

7:13

like a sax player said, when can we retire?

7:18

Is it the Eagles? You can

7:20

check out any time you like, but

7:22

you can never leave. What

7:25

I like about the sound of the record as well

7:28

is there is this kind of great sense

7:30

of Victoriana about it, which is sort

7:33

of imbued in so much of your work, you

7:35

know, and that sort of anarchic

7:38

London streets, a very Sweeney

7:40

Todd. It seems to be that's

7:43

the kind of madness that you've connected

7:45

to for a long time. Yeah, I mean, you

7:48

know, we all follow our different threads, don't we?

7:50

I mean, for us, you know, our biggest influences

7:53

were Ray Davis and Ian Dewey,

7:55

you know, and I never really know anything about

7:57

music call until Ian Dewey came along.

8:00

But funny enough,

8:03

in that theatre of the absurd,

8:05

the whole sort of faded grandeur of those

8:07

old theatres or music halls

8:09

I've always been attracted to.

8:12

I don't know why really.

8:13

We can hear you fine, Suggs. I

8:16

don't sound like I'm renting like a shouting lunatic

8:18

then. No. That's

8:20

kind of what we're after. Well,

8:23

that'll make a change. I think that was

8:25

what I bumped into in Soho, wasn't it? Yeah.

8:32

But funny, because you're talking about jury and

8:34

the musical, because he was around with you

8:36

guys before you were madness, right? Wasn't it you

8:38

kind of got to know him? Wasn't there the

8:40

story of one of you hanging upside down by

8:42

his turnips? Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

8:45

it was Kilburn and the Hyros. It was like,

8:48

who wouldn't want to see a band called Kilburn and

8:51

the Hyros? Leo

8:53

Saxophone. I kept getting

8:55

blanked at the doors of Roxy Music,

8:57

Kilburn and the Hyros. Because

8:58

I was too young. I was just that little bit younger

9:00

than the rest of them. But Lee bumped

9:03

in through a window backstage

9:05

and it had one of them prongles, you know, that holds

9:07

the thingy bob.

9:09

And he got his turnips caught and he was hanging upside

9:11

down when he and jury came in. What

9:15

theatre was it? It

9:18

was the Tully

9:21

Hope pub, you know, just off Kentishtown,

9:23

which unfortunately, like so many of those

9:26

pubs, has gone now. Is this before pub? Yeah,

9:28

it is. This pub rock, wasn't it? It's

9:31

pub rock, so 74, 75, yeah. Plumber

9:35

Airlines, the original Gorillas. I

9:37

can't remember the rest. Curdled

9:39

Fliers. Curdled Fliers, Dev

9:41

School, My Wife's Brand, Brinjley

9:43

Swartz. Brinjley Swartz. No, he was earlier.

9:46

He was earlier. They

9:48

might have been a bit earlier. Dr. Lux.

9:51

Dr. Feelgood, Dr. Lux. Bearded

9:53

Lady. Plumber

9:56

L.

11:51

I

12:00

don't know, extraordinarily aggressive, weirdos,

12:02

most of my teachers, unfortunately. But

12:05

at the same time, we didn't make life easy

12:07

for them. I know that much, yeah.

12:09

You know, when I

12:11

first went to my primary school when I

12:13

was 11, my mum, parallels

12:15

were really fashionable. They were sort of happening, right?

12:18

Parallelic trousers. But my

12:20

mum just bought me a pair of school trousers that

12:22

were two sizes too big for me because

12:24

she wanted me to grow into them. And I was so

12:27

embarrassed. So what I had to do is I had to go

12:29

round and tell everyone they were parallels

12:32

in the latest version. So when

12:34

baggy trousers came out, I completely related

12:36

to it. Well, that was it. And

12:38

so Ronny,

12:39

the adage sort of begins

12:41

in an undertone. And that's what people thought.

12:43

But what I really meant was the box with

12:46

bags from Woodhouse, you know, with the five

12:48

buttons and all that, and the pockets down

12:50

by your knees. But it's

12:52

funny, in your three-star

12:54

tank top.

12:55

That's it, mate. That's it, that's it.

12:58

Three stars and put up your baggies

13:00

and we'll leave back. Yeah,

13:02

Woodhouse. God, I remember that. Woodhouse, yeah,

13:04

Oxford Street. Yeah, we used to get our clothes

13:07

up at Woodhouse. The waistcoats and the soul boys.

13:09

And it was all there. It's like, OK, look. I'm

13:11

going to nick a few bits and bobs. This will split up,

13:13

right? And my mate went, yeah, yeah, come on. Let's

13:15

do that. Next thing I see him running with a

13:17

whole row of coats at Woodhouse.

13:20

He's down at Oxford Street. He

13:23

said, keep it quiet. You know what I mean?

13:28

They didn't catch him. It

13:31

was one fat security guard,

13:33

just couldn't keep up. He was going like a

13:35

packet of crackers. Well, it was hard to

13:38

run in your toppers or whatever

13:40

shoes you're wearing. But,

13:45

yeah, just sorry, guy, I'm

13:47

sort of busting him with my own head. No, please,

13:49

please, go ahead. No, no, I wasn't. No, no, you were going,

13:51

I didn't have anything. I got nothing. I got nothing. You're

13:53

North London. I was south London. It was a

13:55

country. I think this is an interesting thing. For

14:00

me, after punk, I

14:02

went a bit soulboy. And Woodhouse

14:04

was definitely a place to

14:07

dress for me. What was the music that

14:09

you were listening to? Because

14:11

your band were only a few years after that. Yeah,

14:14

well funny you say that, Goya, because I remember that

14:16

distinct moment. My pals

14:18

were soulboys, because that was

14:21

what was happening. And

14:23

going to the Roxy, where punk

14:26

historically supposedly started,

14:28

there were very few punk records. We weren't

14:31

really into punk music, but Don Litz

14:33

was the DJ. And there weren't many

14:35

punk records, so he was playing reggae records

14:38

throughout the night. And that's what we started

14:40

to get into, reggae and

14:42

then ultimately going back into ska

14:45

and all that. But I wonder, I remember,

14:47

do you remember the Pub to Champion on the street?

14:49

Yeah, yes, I used to go there. That was a soulboy

14:52

pub. They're in the Tibbert and Oms.

14:55

Yeah, you did. We were

14:57

all like that. Sometimes the soulboys

15:00

had come out of the champion and we knew we

15:02

were in a bit of trouble. Yeah,

15:04

all the crumbies and boba

15:06

boots and all that. They were all

15:08

scaffolders, weren't they? Boxers, the

15:11

soulboys. Yeah, well, it

15:13

turned out a few naughty gangs. Yeah, right. It

15:16

certainly did. The Packington estate, yeah, all that, all that.

15:19

In terms of what you were listening to, because I

15:21

remember I saw your one man show and you would

15:24

say how like, it must be love, La Bicifre,

15:26

was something that you were listening to at that

15:28

time. Yeah. That's like quite

15:31

a broad mix considering... Yeah, you

15:33

just can't... Well, I think, you know, I mean,

15:35

it was very sort of delineated, but

15:38

really when you look back, we were all listening

15:40

to a very eclectic selection of music.

15:43

Certainly in my band, you know, from Motley Oopel

15:45

to Alex Harvey to Andrew, to

15:47

Reddy, to Scott, to Soul to Earl

15:49

Green, to the, you know, I've been gay,

15:52

all of this stuff was in the firmament. But

15:54

then you kind of had a little scene, didn't you? And

15:56

your little scene kind of,

15:59

it's what you... were allowed to say you liked. So

16:02

obviously, you know, straight trousers

16:04

was a big thing, you know what

16:07

I mean? And not tearing

16:09

your clothes up or safety pins and then

16:11

slowly you sort of get into this. I remember

16:14

I had friends who were in a sort of Teddy Boy music

16:16

and then they went into Rockabilly and then they

16:18

went into Bluegrass. It was almost like

16:21

you had your own little thing that no one else could,

16:24

you know, and do you know what I mean? I don't even really

16:26

know why. I think you felt more kind of individual

16:29

by what we did. So we went from

16:32

reggae to ska to rocksteady to da da da

16:34

da da da da da da da da da da and backwards and backwards into that

16:36

music and more and more obscure records

16:38

that no one else could find. I think that was probably a lot

16:41

to do with it. Well, you know, I decided without

16:44

wanting to sound too pretentious, why

16:47

should I stop now? But, you know, I

16:49

feel like,

16:53

you know, we were

16:55

probably the first generation because my dad

16:57

was conscripted. First generation that

16:59

didn't have to wear a uniform, you

17:02

know, legally. And all

17:05

of us were looking for uniforms and tribes

17:07

in different ways. Interesting.

17:11

I did the mod thing. My first band was a mod band,

17:14

which is a now 79 Mod C. And it

17:16

was that same thing. You think you're

17:18

being rebellious and outside and everything, but it's

17:20

kind of, but it's all been done for you. You

17:23

can live in a this and you can wear this. And it's like, it's

17:25

all done. We're all individuals. What did you

17:27

want to be when you were a kid? I

17:31

mean,

17:34

how did you grow up? You just grew up with your, living with your mum,

17:36

didn't you? I grew up living with my mum. Yeah.

17:39

She worked in bars and sang. She

17:41

was a very good singer, but she never really made

17:44

what she wanted to of herself.

17:46

Did you want that bit of banana cake or what Ben?

17:48

I haven't cooked that one that way. Sucks, it's

17:50

one little side thing here. Cause there's a thing about your

17:52

childhood that I really recognise and love. You

17:55

were saying cause like she used to, when she wasn't singing, she'd

17:57

work at the French and she'd work at the colony room. Yeah.

18:00

Because I had the same thing, when my dad wasn't working,

18:02

he'd fill in behind the bar at Jerry's. I

18:05

used to sit with my comic down, you know, sit

18:07

amongst all the actors and everything, so I very much recognised

18:10

that childhood. It's brilliant. Well, no,

18:12

Jerry's very clearly, yeah, yeah, yeah. First

18:14

time I ever had a Coca-Cola, first

18:16

time I ever tasted an avocado.

18:18

I remember it, like it was yesterday.

18:21

And then going down the back of the seats of the sofa

18:23

and you'd find a few 20 pences or

18:26

whatever they were in those days, swippances. Wraps.

18:30

But not, no, not in those days.

18:33

Maybe now you would. But

18:36

yeah, yeah, so it was a pretty disparate upbringing

18:39

because my mum didn't get home too very late. But

18:41

I was very, well, I wanted to go into art.

18:43

I was quite good at drawing and painting,

18:45

but I didn't get

18:47

the qualifications to be able to get to art school.

18:50

But I was so fortunate, I bumped

18:52

into the band when I was sort of 15 or 16, and

18:55

it took off pretty much as soon as

18:57

I met them. By the time I was 18, I was

18:59

on top of the pop. So because they already had

19:01

a band, didn't they? They were North London invaders, were

19:03

they? To North London invaders. It's great,

19:06

I heard it. All the names

19:08

were great. All the yeah. When

19:10

it turned out there was another band called the invaders.

19:13

I mean, whatever happened to them anyway,

19:16

the sniveling shit they were able to see at the

19:18

time. They retreated, I think. Source

19:21

throat, because you're falling off the angle on

19:23

that. But so when you bumped into them,

19:26

was that because you had similar music tastes

19:28

or what? Where was the place? Yeah, well,

19:30

no, there was a few pubs. There was the

19:32

Duke of Hamilton in Hampstead, and we all

19:34

gravitated up the hill from the lower

19:37

slopes. The working class slopes

19:39

were counting against his town. The

19:41

cupboard had been shut. To the glorious

19:44

light of Hampstead.

19:46

And

19:49

I remember following a Leo saxophone player

19:51

setting fire to the bins all the way up the hill,

19:54

like some medieval tribe. But

19:56

yeah, that goes. And people at

19:58

parties and par... who were away

20:01

for the weekend. So we used to hang a boat up

20:03

there, fridgey fridges with food

20:05

in them. You know what I mean? All that

20:07

old stuff. Libraries, libraries, bookshelves.

20:09

I've read bookshelves, right? Records.

20:13

I remember seeing this suitcase of records

20:15

appearing down on a piece of sheet

20:18

coming out the window, and I knew it was at the top

20:20

of it.

20:22

So what was that? How come you bumped it? Were they

20:25

all part of the same thing? You were just randomly about,

20:27

and the other thing was graffiti. This

20:29

is a sort of, I think, sort of letter,

20:32

known bit of Irish tree. All

20:34

the band were in the graffiti, so I knew

20:36

Mike Barson was doing Mr. B, did

20:39

this huge three-dimensional train

20:41

coming out of a wall in Amsterdam. Lee

20:43

used to hang off bridges upside

20:45

down doing kicks, and I was doing, and

20:48

it was almost like a kind of coded

20:51

vernacular that you go, oh, you're Mr.

20:53

B, oh, and you're thugs. And

20:56

so all of our nicknames became something

20:58

that made us famous, even in

21:01

the early stages of graffiti. Just before it was taken.

21:03

Well, I'm not sure, but what you said, but this is still

21:05

70s. When you say graffiti, was

21:08

it not like the hip-hop graffiti? Was

21:10

it? Well, no, I mean, it was

21:13

still pretty rubbish, but we decided

21:15

that, and then there was a book,

21:17

I remember George Melley had the foreword

21:19

of this book, and it was something like

21:21

The Subways of New York, and suddenly we

21:23

realized that there was a whole other world

21:26

to this, you know, art

21:28

form. But

21:33

Lee, Mike and Chris and them used to then walk

21:35

across the overground, the

21:38

North London line. The magic line

21:41

or something. The magic line, the magic line, the

21:43

magic line. And then in the morning you'd see

21:45

all these amazing,

21:46

you know, things coming out of the walls, you know,

21:48

and it was funny because I don't know how much,

21:51

I think there's a bit of it recorded, but it

21:53

wasn't like that, what you're just seeing now is that sort

21:55

of bubble stuff. Yeah. But

21:58

the other famous memory I had, oh, God.

23:46

She

24:00

went all the video style. Well I don't know,

24:02

you know, whatever gets you going, you know, all kinds of

24:04

things get you going, don't they? But you know, it wasn't just

24:06

that as well. You know, the music whole thing

24:08

what we touched on. But that then led into like

24:11

Samuel Beckett and Tommy Cooper, who then

24:13

we turned out,

24:14

you know, when she craps the last tape, we didn't realise

24:16

he was actually a huge fan of Tommy Cooper.

24:19

Tommy Cooper, you know, and then Tommy Cooper, Les Dawson,

24:22

whatever. I mean certainly self-deprecation,

24:24

no, self-deprecation. You know, we took

24:26

the work very seriously, but we just

24:28

didn't take ourselves very seriously. And that's

24:31

what we tried to project. What guys saying

24:33

I get, you know, there's a history

24:36

of bands, like even the Beatles, who

24:38

were always connected with comedy. You

24:40

know, for them it was the Goons, for us, you

24:42

know, in Python. But

24:44

there's also funny elements in your band

24:47

of like the sand dancers from Music Hall. Those

24:49

two guys, I forgot what they're called, you know. What

24:52

were they called, maybe? Mason always does.

24:55

Yeah, he's something and something, wasn't he? Yeah, there

24:57

was one there as well. And I've seen him outside,

24:59

Les the Square Odeon. Yeah, yeah. Or

25:01

Max Wall. Oh, Max Wall,

25:03

yeah. I mean, of course. Well, funny

25:05

enough, when did him, do you remember playing for today?

25:08

And he wouldn't imagine that's the sort of thing we would watch,

25:10

but you know, when it wasn't much on. Well,

25:13

everyone watched it, there was nothing else. I mean, so

25:15

there was Crabs Last Tape, the Samuel Becker,

25:17

and it was Max Wall was playing crap.

25:21

And he goes, spool, this is spool.

25:23

And the word banana about 15 times

25:25

in a row. And it's just delirious. And

25:28

just as a side, do you not fancy doing that, Suggs?

25:30

What's that? Crabs Last Tape.

25:32

Ha, ha, ha, ha, I do actually. I'd

25:35

love to do it. Well, you should. That's a

25:37

great idea. It's a one-hander, why

25:39

not? Funny that, you know, just, I

25:41

don't know, you know, something just so intangible,

25:44

untangible, intangible. You

25:47

know, the correlation between Tommy Cooper

25:49

and Samuel Becker is perfect in my mind, even

25:51

though you couldn't possibly join those two

25:54

concepts together. Yeah, yeah. You know what

25:56

I mean? It's a reality, we might say.

25:58

We might say. I could say.

27:25

seven

28:00

of you in front of her instead of the Queen. And

28:03

it's the funniest image. There are

28:05

a few of them now, I've got to say. I've got a few,

28:07

yeah. People send them to me. Yeah, it's

28:10

cool, but I can't remember why there's a few of them down

28:12

the line. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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29:19

Didn't it strike you early on, though, that splitting

29:21

the fees seven ways was quite a lot?

29:23

I mean, that's a lot of people in

29:26

a band, isn't it, Sugg? LAUGHTER

29:30

It's funny you should say that, Gail. Five

29:32

as far as you were going to prepare to go, Gail.

29:35

Five, yeah, true the line. I wasn't

29:37

going to have anyone dancing getting paid. LAUGHTER

29:41

No, I was

29:43

doing something with Paul Weller recently and

29:45

my son-in-law's a huge fan of him. It's all

29:48

right for you, Paul, isn't it? You've sacked

29:50

your band off. LAUGHTER

29:53

Well, there's only two of them. And it is what I'm

29:55

going to say. Imagine! I've

29:58

got another six of them wrapped round me.

30:01

Look, it's just the way we worked it out. I mean, what we

30:03

did with the songwriting was after

30:05

the songwriter, after the people who

30:07

played on the record, and that's the way it's always been, for

30:10

better or for worse, you know, that's just the way it's

30:12

been. Well, that's good because you've got a few writers,

30:15

haven't you? Well, we have, everybody, yes. Lee

30:17

wrote the first song, didn't he? The first hit. He

30:20

did, he cribbed. It's

30:22

like, how did it take you seven

30:24

years to do a new record, considering all

30:26

six of you write songs? If you just wrote

30:28

like two each, you

30:31

could have an album in a year, shortly. Yeah,

30:33

yeah, yeah, yeah. But it ain't been

30:35

like that, you know. Well, because

30:38

Mike got the mantle, didn't he? He was always presented

30:40

as sort of the man. Yeah. I said. Do

30:42

you know what's funny? There's

30:43

literally one,

30:44

one letter difference between his name

30:47

and Bowie's piano genius. Yes,

30:50

I know that, I know that, I know that, I know that. There's

30:53

only one letter difference between

30:55

me and the slits. Oh,

30:57

no, maybe two. Oh, hang on, no, three.

30:59

I

31:03

was trying

31:04

to think of something. Yeah, yeah. I

31:06

was trying to think of something. Pudgy,

31:08

pudgy, there you go. Thanks for the ruts.

31:11

There you go. Thanks for the ruts. So,

31:14

he says, if only I'd... Well, you know, there's

31:16

a pound behind it. Yeah, he gets mentioned

31:19

every week on this show. Sugs,

31:23

when did you realize that actually you were

31:25

on your own

31:26

in this kind of love of Scar

31:29

and this, there was a sort of a sensibility,

31:32

a zeitgeist that was going right across the country. It

31:34

was, but obviously in commentary. Yeah, well,

31:36

it was exactly that. It was funny enough in

31:38

Islington, the open

31:40

anchor, where we used to

31:43

hang out and, you know, at a sort

31:45

of whatever pub rock, new wave

31:47

thing, Stiff was upstairs. Then

31:50

one day, the specialists walked in,

31:52

you know, so seven guys from Coventry

31:54

wearing pork piax and tonic suits,

31:57

looking like us, sounding like us, slightly

31:59

better.

31:59

than us and we thought hang

32:02

on a minute there's something going on here. Did

32:04

you think you said you'd have to kill them?

32:06

That's why.

32:07

I didn't

32:09

know whether to feel jealous or vindicated.

32:12

But sort of both. I

32:15

was sorting a Jerry afterwards and he said

32:18

he's never had any teeth. If

32:21

he wanted to have some with these at the stay after

32:24

a gig, he basically was pulling a bird.

32:27

And with them teeth, he ended

32:29

up sleeping at my mum's flat. But

32:37

I swear, you know, sometimes you think,

32:40

but it wasn't. He said to me

32:42

at three in the morning,

32:43

I'm going to start a record label, I'm going to start

32:45

an English Motown. I said, don't

32:47

you think that's a smidge optimistic Jerry? He

32:50

just played the 35 people in a pub basement.

32:53

And you've got no teeth. And you've got no teeth.

32:58

But six months later, we rang me up and

33:00

said, look, I've done it. And

33:02

it was just to make that is the site, guys. We'd just done

33:04

our first demos. You know what that's

33:07

like, Gary, where you just think,

33:09

Jesus Christ, we're hanging on by our teeth. I

33:12

can barely play these fucking instruments.

33:16

And we'd done the prints and madness and

33:18

it just sort of sounded all right. And

33:21

he went, yeah, I could just do something to

33:23

put out on two tone. And that was it. The

33:26

prints and it was a hit. It went into

33:28

the top 20. And who else was there? The specials? Who

33:30

else was the selector? Selector,

33:32

the beat. And then,

33:34

yeah, I never really saw the beat as doing

33:36

the same sort of music, but

33:38

I get it. Now, mostly it was the specials

33:40

and the selector. Yeah. Thank you, Roger. Thank

33:43

you, Roger. Yeah. God rest his soul. I

33:46

mean, so many of them gone, which is the sadist

33:48

thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of this time

33:50

of our lives. Well, yeah. Yeah.

33:52

Yeah.

33:53

So then you went

33:55

out on a tour, didn't you, with them?

33:57

Yeah. So that was, yeah, the highlight of my life,

33:59

the two tone tour. So we all met up at the round-outs.

34:02

I was 17 16 17. So there's a special selector Then

34:06

Texas Midnight Runners came on the bus. Can

34:08

you imagine? Okay, what I see? So

34:10

anyway, I thought that whole thing was bunking

34:13

trains

34:14

Well,

34:22

you can do both they're not mutually

34:25

exclusive With

34:31

nothing in them Bubble

34:34

that

34:35

Thanks How did you and Kevin

34:37

go on? I mean listen you Kevin

34:40

Chas and Jerry,

34:42

I mean that's some serious. Well,

34:44

we all went a bit How you are, you know,

34:47

and I think any one of those human beings

34:49

would say to you it wasn't always completely

34:51

in control Well, also there's

34:53

so many people in your bands. I mean

34:55

how many people are on that bus? Well, there

34:57

you go Hundreds there were hundreds but I

34:59

remember it was delineated by the

35:02

fact that the people who drank were

35:04

at the front The

35:05

people that took at phetamines were in the middle

35:08

and the people who puffed were at the back See

35:11

who guess where we were? running

35:13

up and down that Chickens

35:17

in a hen run Baby,

35:20

you know, and it was all that We're very cold

35:22

and all these proper old, you know professionals

35:25

and then it's us and we were like the sort of clowns

35:27

of the operation Not you know just

35:30

if we were the youngest now, we were

35:32

the youngest and to us it was

35:34

Just a non-stop party, you

35:36

know, and then that's what's like when you're

35:38

that age, you know

35:39

Yeah, but and you said but the thing that kind

35:41

of drove you away from two-tone was

35:43

just the regional Aspect wasn't

35:46

it you just wouldn't as a bit of that but also

35:48

the you know two-tone very specific

35:51

Was to promote the music

35:53

of Jamaica scar music Which

35:56

we loved and still do

35:58

but we just felt we were other things we wanted to

36:00

do wouldn't fit in you know

36:02

like all the musical thing and all

36:04

variety or

36:06

kinks and injury and

36:09

then just stiff just turned up out of the blue

36:11

and it was just a perfect place for us because it

36:14

was equally creative

36:16

and free and um

36:19

what's the word they used to say you know it's not a conglomerate

36:21

it's a collective of it

36:24

no no free good labor there's

36:27

a word there's a word for it anyway it wasn't

36:29

yeah because the sense of being with jerry

36:31

you know jerry i would have thought would have wanted

36:34

his band to succeed the most right he was always going

36:36

to be on top but with dave robinson right

36:38

that's right you know you had a proper

36:41

a&r man who just wanted your success

36:43

yeah yeah i think i think i think i think

36:46

i again you know so far

36:48

away that i can't remember exactly the details

36:50

but i just remember we didn't

36:52

feel like we wanted to stay on two-tone we went and

36:54

had look at all the other record companies and they were horrible

36:56

all the big ones you know and then independent

36:59

and that's the word bumped into dave

37:02

and at that point dave had elvis costello

37:04

ian julie our hero coasting the

37:06

call the pugs the dand it

37:09

was just wow this is a

37:11

place to be you know from laverick's

37:13

nick lowe was there

37:15

as well yeah so it was just full

37:17

of it was ironic because most of those

37:20

artists hadn't been able to get a deal with

37:22

the major record labels even

37:24

though it was it yeah picking

37:26

up the the waves and strays

37:29

and in fact it was the most perfect place

37:31

to be and he was such a dynamic guy

37:34

you know all those videos that we made were all

37:36

his dynamism really that he

37:38

could see that there was something in the band

37:40

that was visual comic

37:42

comically or or dramatically

37:44

or whatever you call it but um he definitely

37:47

drove before you know the bus yeah

37:49

and we we were very happy to be on that bus

37:52

yeah you should go on any of those stiff tours we

37:55

just missed it yeah yeah

37:57

we did one on a train which is the one we missed

38:00

And then he was trying to buy a DC-10

38:03

or something, and he was just going, do

38:05

you really think she'd buy an airplane?

38:09

A record company should

38:11

buy an airplane. I

38:13

think I've seen like, who was it? You know,

38:16

Linus Ginnard or something, bought

38:18

an airplane, they come and buy only un-stuff. Yeah,

38:21

yeah. Yeah,

38:23

because reckless Eric, I remember, some

38:25

documentary was really

38:28

unhappy about all that stuff. That

38:30

was the thing about putting everyone's record out on the same

38:32

day. Yeah. He didn't,

38:34

he did not like that. He thought it

38:37

would all become about

38:39

the label rather than the people on it. I

38:41

love my label, my label

38:45

loves me. I asked Nick

38:47

Lowe about that. Yeah, he's always, yeah,

38:49

go on. Was it them

38:51

that put you together with Langer Winstanley? Because

38:54

that was a massive relationship, Clive.

38:56

Yeah.

38:58

Tim. Now, what did they

39:00

do, Tim? Come

39:01

on, here's your question. Gloria. Well,

39:04

Gloria, there you go. For him. Yes,

39:07

he put us together. Fan. He

39:09

came and he said, here, guys. I said, where are

39:11

you? It was down there somewhere like that. I

39:14

said, fan. Stand

39:17

up. He said, I am. No, you got to know.

39:20

You were deaf school fans, weren't you already? Well, you

39:22

were. Didn't you know then before? Yeah, deaf school,

39:24

again. It was a bit like the Kloven

39:26

and the Irode thing. They started playing

39:28

in pubs in Camden Town and just some

39:30

peculiar reason.

39:31

Then they played at the roundhouse. We

39:34

all went to see them. They were huge instruments on us,

39:36

but

39:37

that again was just pre-punk. It was like 75.

39:42

That's right. And then punk

39:44

blew them out of the water because they were a seven-piece

39:46

band, the theatrical, you know, and

39:49

then all of a sudden you had to be three or four

39:51

people. They just

39:53

couldn't hang on. They just lasted till 70

39:55

days. They would have been

39:57

all right when we started. the

40:00

whole thing had changed. Yeah,

40:03

because you're right, because there was a sense of, it went

40:05

from the theatrical and art school to

40:08

anger, expressing anger. That's

40:10

something you never did, you guys, did you? It

40:14

was never about anger. No, no, no. And

40:17

you know, fast things went every one

40:19

summer, wouldn't they? Probably only 76,

40:22

77, very brief period. And then it was sort

40:24

of like, yeah, yeah, it's all right, you can sort of calm down

40:27

a bit now. And not

40:29

calm down energetically, but

40:31

calm down, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:34

also, you know, the whole

40:36

two-tone thing, which is the same energy as punk, but

40:38

it was just a more positive outlook, as

40:40

to what you were trying to say and what you're trying to express.

40:43

I mean, not positive, but not anger.

40:46

Or multicultural, for sure. Well, that's

40:48

for sure, that's for sure. But going back to

40:50

Lang and Winston League, so just, yeah, your relationship

40:53

developed through them, because they came out

40:55

of deaf school, right, and then... Yeah,

40:58

so Clive was the lead guitarist

41:01

songwriter in deaf school, when

41:03

my wife's back, my wife was in

41:05

that band, deaf school, and we

41:08

saw them a few times, and they were great, and it just never

41:10

quite made it. And then, Alan

41:12

Stanley had done some work, I

41:14

think he'd done The Stranglers. A fight, yeah.

41:17

But then he did Knock on Wood by Amy

41:20

Dobry. Ron. Yeah.

41:22

Yeah, and it was just like, hang on a minute, we

41:24

must be quite interested if he does The Stranglers

41:27

and Knock on Wood by Amy, whatever. Disco

41:30

business. And it just worked

41:33

out that perfect combination, that

41:35

Clive was a sort of ideas,

41:38

you know, construction, arrangements,

41:41

key changes, and Alan was just a

41:43

really good engineer, and the pair of them just

41:45

really hit it off. I mean, and they went

41:47

on to have so many, I mean, make so many

41:49

great records, not just ours. Although

41:52

ours were the best, obviously, but, you know, they make some other

41:54

good ones. No, well, we've worked

41:56

with them, well, I did more of that work. We worked

41:58

with them together on a film.

41:59

Gary yeah very nice people very nice

42:02

fantastic I love what was the film

42:04

still crazy oh yeah

42:06

yeah Bill Nye but

42:09

I played I played with you with Clive Suggs

42:12

with one of the most brilliant hilarious

42:14

gigs remember we did that charity fundraiser

42:17

for lovely Andrew Mackay it

42:21

was to raise the money Roxy madness

42:23

or madness it was fantastic and

42:26

it was to raise the money to get a new roof

42:28

for the pavilion of his local cricket professional

42:36

I don't think we managed it mate but I think we

42:38

still owe them what

42:44

I will say about playing

42:46

those songs with you is I've

42:48

played to every sort of audience in the

42:50

world but playing those madness songs see

42:52

the way people

42:53

they bob up and down I mean no I know you had a fucking

42:56

earthquake man it

42:58

must be an amazing thing that you look out to every night

43:01

it is literally Gary's sea of people

43:03

just bobbing it's amazing well

43:06

you know I don't do it as often

43:08

as I used to which sort of makes it a bit

43:10

more fun but when I do I genuinely

43:13

believe I enjoy it more yeah following

43:16

up Chris Sullivan you know him

43:19

yeah and he came down and he

43:21

said he was just like unbridled joy now

43:28

that's not a bad phrase is it to have thrown

43:30

about yeah and people just really dig

43:32

it you know you can't context

43:34

you can't quantify it you can't take it away

43:37

you know if you want to do it do it if you don't want to do

43:39

it then you know someone else will and

43:41

that was the thing about what you were doing because it

43:44

was so joyous and comic

43:46

but in a very sensitive, melancholic

43:49

way that you

43:51

it was hard to ever be against madness

43:53

no matter what other tribe you were in

43:55

you know you couldn't not

43:58

like that Yes.

44:01

I take that as a back-handed compliment. No, of course

44:03

I do mate. No, because of course we all hated

44:06

each other. Yeah, of course we were all in competition.

44:09

But I don't know what it was that made us

44:11

have this sort of weird moral compass

44:13

that... I don't know,

44:15

I really honestly don't know. I can't explain

44:17

it. Right, you've had enough now. You've had enough now. You've had

44:19

enough. Look, come on. No, no, no, no. The

44:23

other thing is how many

44:25

fantastic singles you had. When you started,

44:27

did you see yourself as... That was your aim, to

44:30

be a singles band. Because there was a lot

44:32

of artists out there just wanting to make great albums,

44:34

weren't there? But, you know, we

44:37

didn't get to absolutely. And it's like just

44:39

tons of the things. No,

44:41

no, we didn't. No, we didn't. And it was funny

44:43

that again. It was a funny

44:46

anomaly of Dave Robinson's that he

44:49

said, why don't you? Because no, of course

44:51

we wanted to have albums, but we weren't.

44:53

The albums were doing all right, but the singers were

44:55

doing much better. The singers were selling millions,

44:58

you know. He

45:00

said, we'll do a compilation of

45:02

your singles. We went, but at that point,

45:04

only people who were dead do compilations.

45:07

They said... I

45:10

said, give us a chance, Dave. Anyway,

45:12

you know, he said, look, we put out Complete

45:15

Madness compilation album for Christmas.

45:17

And it was our biggest selling album. So it was obvious

45:20

that that was where it was headed.

45:22

You know, the singles were... Did you

45:24

find them easy to write? I

45:26

was there. It was very hard, mate.

45:28

I mean, you know who knows about that creative

45:31

process. I mean, we... I remember finding out

45:33

absolutely. We had no singles

45:36

at all. I remember a blackball and I

45:38

could see like... There's nothing

45:40

on there that looks like a hit, right? We had all the

45:43

titles of the songs written down. And then

45:45

that's when I wrote Becky trousers. And

45:47

then Mike walked in with embarrassment. And

45:49

it was like just at the end of the session,

45:53

who would have known it? You know what I mean?

45:55

That those two songs pop up. You

45:57

just don't know. You really don't know.

45:59

I mean, I don't think that

46:02

we always had an aspiration not to worry

46:04

about whether we had a hit single. You know what I mean? Trying

46:07

to write a hit single is

46:09

a job, isn't it? It's not a job, what

46:11

we do. It's fun, you know? What is fun

46:14

is just seeing what happens, you know? I

46:16

mean, embarrassment, embarrassment! No

46:19

chorus, not the titles, not

46:21

even in the fucking song. What is that about?

46:23

It's just a great big saxophone solo with

46:25

chords going all over the gap. There's

46:28

not a chorus. It was a spirit,

46:30

great spirit in it. But

46:33

do you think you're saying that, seeing as you were

46:35

such a singles band? I mean, you made some great

46:37

comment, Wabak, about you split up in 86 to

46:40

give some other people a chance to catch up. To

46:43

have more hits than any hit singles in the 80s, and no

46:45

one did. Well,

46:47

it's just more than anybody else would give them

46:50

four years to catch up. Anyway. But

46:53

then, in your act two,

46:56

if you will, it sort of matters. You

46:59

now do these very ambitious, sprawling,

47:01

concept albums. I

47:04

mean, the limited, Norton Folgate. I mean, brilliant. And

47:06

then the new one. It's like you've become a sort of prog

47:09

version of yourself. Exactly. Progressive

47:11

pop. We

47:15

didn't intend to. But

47:17

I think, you know, everything has been... We've

47:20

always tried to expand

47:22

our horizons. Yeah, not in a huge

47:24

way, you know, but if you think,

47:27

you know, we did Calypso songs,

47:29

we did a bit of jazz, we did a bit of

47:31

rock. We tried to sort of keep

47:34

it

47:34

moving.

47:35

And then it was

47:37

almost inevitable that we'd start writing

47:39

songs that were a little bit longer and a little

47:42

bit more fucking boring. No,

47:45

a little bit progressive. And

47:47

certainly Norton Folgate really changed

47:50

the whole horizon for us because

47:52

we were getting sucked into a sort of, you

47:54

know, easeless nostalgia thing. And we had to

47:56

get out of that, yeah, if we wanted to live. Where did that

47:58

idea come from?

47:59

come from because it's brilliant. Also, I didn't

48:02

really, you know, this like this sort of free state

48:04

in the middle of London. Yeah, I

48:06

just picked up a book. I can't remember. It

48:08

was by an old vicar who was working in Shoreditch and

48:11

I

48:11

forget the name of it now, but he just talked

48:13

about the liberty of Norton Foggate. And I didn't

48:15

realise there were a number of liberties that were

48:18

outside the walls of

48:20

London where you could do what you wanted.

48:23

And

48:23

it struck me as something very interesting. Well,

48:26

I mean, I wouldn't mind a couple of people I could

48:28

think of. I don't know what's

48:31

on the edge. But I worked personally. But

48:35

they just survived

48:38

in a very old way. And there's

48:40

no very little record. There's very little record because

48:42

they weren't, they were like, it literally like sort

48:44

of hillbillies, you know, living outside

48:46

the walls of society. Like

48:49

that place in, is it, you think Denmark?

48:52

There's a, there's a. Oh, no, Christians. Christians.

48:55

Yeah. Yeah. It's

48:57

all this. It's very piece of acroid sort of

48:59

thing, is it? It is for sure. Yeah.

49:02

Because he is a London historian as opposed

49:05

to a Danish historian. Yes. Guy

49:08

just jumped into your second act, but I just wanted

49:10

to, you know, in 86 there was a

49:13

split. Did you feel that you didn't

49:15

have, you'd kind of run your

49:17

all your creative juices out in madness or

49:19

you just couldn't stand each other anymore? Yeah,

49:22

well, you know that. Yeah. I mean, it

49:24

was all for reasons.

49:25

We were fucking sick of each other.

49:26

No, because

49:29

it's all you do, isn't it? You make an album, you do an

49:31

untool, you make an album. Well, you know that guy. And

49:34

for sure, when I look back, we were

49:36

existing in a sort of sixties paradigm,

49:39

you know, it's like we were touring three singles

49:41

tour album, three singles

49:44

tour home for about two

49:46

weeks a year for five years,

49:48

man. It just got exhausting.

49:50

And then our keyboard player might just had enough and

49:53

put me in love with a girl who and he moved

49:55

to Holland and it was the best thing

49:58

that could have happened because we kind of stumbled. on

50:00

for a bit but then we just thought without him it's

50:02

a bit like losing your arm or something. We

50:04

stopped and that was great we just all went back

50:06

to normal life. Four or five

50:08

years whatever normal life is these days.

50:12

We say back to normal life but I mean it's but

50:14

you were so young when you started you hadn't really

50:16

had a normal life. Well no I mean

50:19

that's what I'm saying. Whatever

50:21

you see as normal life. But

50:23

just me not being in a pop band you know

50:25

not being a pop star

50:27

and you know I remember that you

50:29

know people start moaning about being a pop

50:31

star. Pavarotti or someone said you

50:33

pack it up for six months don't worry

50:36

it'll soon go away. You

50:38

see people moaning about it. In this

50:40

part of your movie someone now is painting

50:43

over the sugs graffiti right you

50:45

know counts of whitewashing it and

50:49

you're walking past a blank wall. And

50:53

I thought I can't do it again no those days

50:55

are gone. What I couldn't believe is that

50:57

Mike

50:58

who took over from Mike

50:59

was Paul Carrick. Yes

51:03

yes I never knew that. It's

51:05

incredible I mean he's completely was seems

51:07

like a very serious musician.

51:11

There was nothing better than going

51:13

off stage for a fag and letting him do

51:15

our long on his own. Like go on go

51:18

on Paul mate. Right right right amazing.

51:22

So I was talking about

51:24

mad stock earlier and

51:26

yeah and this this so-called story

51:28

of the earthquake. Yeah go

51:30

and fill us in. Well there was and you can see it online

51:33

as it's got a you know seismologist

51:35

whatever you call him comes down and it's recorded

51:38

his 4.5 on the Richter's girl. We

51:40

played there on a Saturday night and

51:42

then it sold out and we played there on a Sunday

51:44

night. And then there was another earthquake and

51:46

the police had to accept that it was

51:49

due to madness. But

51:51

he evacuated all these flats at the

51:53

back of the park. Because of your crowd

51:55

jumping

51:56

up and down I could just. I was gonna say

51:58

you know.

51:59

I did put on a bit but I didn't realise

52:02

it was quite that much. I

52:04

swear to God

52:06

you've got to look it up. I'm

52:09

not saying fat, extremely fat, all blokes

52:12

all jumping up and down at the same time.

52:20

But it must have been joyous to know that

52:22

you've been away for all those years but there was a whole generation

52:24

that just wanted you. For sure. We haven't

52:27

played together for six or seven years and the

52:30

point of doing that, it was... I

52:32

think this power used to do this Irish

52:35

festival, the flower. The

52:38

flower. He's the borderline, doesn't he? Yeah

52:40

that's right. I thought

52:43

it was second-hand furniture then country

52:46

and western and then Irish thing and the flower

52:48

we used to go to, Karl and a few of the band

52:50

or Irish, so we used to go down there. And

52:53

he just said, why didn't you guys just... I said, look, I

52:55

could leave the stage up to next

52:57

weekend, it won't cost you nothing. Why

52:59

didn't you just do your... Because we hadn't

53:01

done a final gig, that was the point. We'd

53:04

sort of fizzled, we hadn't told

53:06

anyone that we'd split up. So

53:08

is that right? We'd do a final gig, yeah, and that

53:10

was it and it just went off, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

53:13

it was amazing to see

53:15

how much enthusiasm this still was for

53:18

this outfit. Who supported you on that? We

53:21

had everyone, didn't we? We were flipping everyone.

53:24

Everyone I asked, the pretenders, the

53:26

endue, the brogads, it's flowered

53:29

up. I can't remember where else to play.

53:32

Then we made the mistake of asking Morrissey

53:34

if he wanted to play on the Sunday and

53:36

he fucked it right up anyway, blowing

53:38

the house. What happened? I can't remember.

53:41

He put up a big picture of Skinhead

53:44

and Union Jack flags and all that and

53:46

everyone went, what are you fucking talking about?

53:48

And started to throw anything. He

53:52

tried to stir it up, you

53:54

know, he tried to stir it up. The

53:56

point of the matter was, yes, and then we put

53:58

out another great instance.

53:59

It's divine madness. Just

54:03

in case you forgot about the first one. It's

54:06

got new artwork in a rhythm.

54:09

The musical,

54:11

Our House, it's got to be one

54:13

of the first jukebox musicals

54:15

around one band? Well,

54:18

I think,

54:19

no, I think ABBA and then Queen.

54:22

Oh, that already happened. Who

54:24

made Small Fortunes and guess

54:27

what we did? Making a

54:29

movie out of it actually. They've

54:34

been talking about it for years. It

54:37

does look like they're making a movie. It

54:39

did well. It was just that we spent too

54:41

much on the production.

54:43

You know what I mean? Annual outgoings,

54:45

one shilling and sixpence. Annual income,

54:48

one shilling. But to be fair,

54:50

Suggs, because of

54:52

your audience, West Fair Musicals

54:54

live on coach loads of Americans. They

54:57

live in the Midwest and everything.

54:59

That wasn't

55:01

who you

55:01

sold records to. Exactly, totally,

55:04

totally 100%. We weren't

55:06

really very big in America and Queen

55:08

were. So I've got no disregard

55:11

for the fact that even though they're one with

55:14

shit, they're much more popular

55:16

than us. It was called

55:18

Our House and I've always had such a love for that record.

55:21

I was still living at home when that record was out and

55:23

I was writing stuff for the Expando album

55:25

probably. I remember it on Christmas

55:27

Top of the Pops. And just, it

55:30

was very moving.

55:32

I always found that record really moving. I'm

55:34

sitting there with my mum and dad in our

55:36

house, although it wasn't very big. But it was connected with, I

55:39

felt like it connected spiritually. Where

55:42

was it? It was in the Angel, weren't you? No,

55:46

Essex Road, just off Essex Road. In Islington. Elmore

55:48

Street at that point. Yeah, well, you

55:51

know, I mean, none of us thought

55:53

that that record would resonate as much

55:55

as it had. And even Carl

55:57

who wrote the words, I think, would say, you know, it was

55:59

a sign.

57:51

be

58:00

they were worried about you know whether we were gonna

58:02

blow them off which is very

58:04

unlikely anyway

58:07

we come off stage and it's like oh

58:10

geez we rammed there are people hanging out the

58:12

trees on the roofs of the ice cream

58:14

vans everything done it it is

58:17

clean from the dressing

58:19

room next door and it turns out yeah that

58:21

limb or no one of the others

58:24

the other one over the end with his guitar i think

58:26

it was limb hit no let's get

58:28

it right let's get it right my

58:30

kids had come running

58:33

back and went dad i think they've had a

58:35

bit of a row in the dressing room anyway

58:40

i don't know what happened after that they obviously stormed

58:42

off in different directions then the promoter came up

58:45

and i did feel sorry for him because he's

58:47

had i mean god bless her he'd

58:49

had amy wine ass on the air before and she'd

58:52

blown him out so he wasn't having a lot

58:54

of luck with his main act he

58:56

said look is there any chance you can go

58:59

on because the way he says they've gone i

59:01

said what do you mean they're gone he said they've

59:03

split up oh my god

59:06

i said well

59:08

how much were they gonna get then to do the main

59:11

show and he went oh no you can't be

59:13

like that you can't be like that i said what do you mean can't be

59:15

like that so i pretended

59:17

there was a taxi behind the tent and i've gone

59:19

right i'm off see as

59:21

if i was in the middle of a field like that and he's

59:24

running after me i went

59:26

all right all right i won't

59:28

go into the vulgar details but it was quite a

59:30

lot of money then i and our road crew

59:32

are going look don't soak they're gonna murder

59:35

you if you go on there they're flying bottles everything

59:37

they get their ends on at the stage but

59:40

at that point they were just pleased to see anything

59:43

i mean but this could have come on and they'd have

59:45

been but

59:47

it was a sad day yeah i seen him getting

59:50

off the train when he got back to king's cost

59:52

and that was the end of that yeah that was the only

59:55

you wrote about it in your book do you know i remember

59:57

this remember um about you getting on

59:59

a euro

59:59

and they were getting on and said the difference between the

1:00:02

two families.

1:00:03

You prefer

1:00:05

yours. Our carriage was that. Just

1:00:07

kicking up. We were falling out of the compartment

1:00:10

all over the gap. And they were like

1:00:13

not talking to each other. But you know,

1:00:15

it goes sometimes in families. We all know that.

1:00:17

We all know that. We all know that. Yeah. Talking

1:00:19

about our house, what about playing that on top of Bucket

1:00:21

and Palace? I mean, that was a great moment,

1:00:23

wasn't it? Of course it was. Of course it was.

1:00:26

What was it? What was it? How did it work? How

1:00:28

did you get up there? What was it? Well, Brian

1:00:31

May is still there. Long story, yeah,

1:00:33

I know. Yeah, you don't mind telling a long story, do you?

1:00:35

Something. You're

1:00:37

going to be doing it for the rest of your life. Well, that's what my

1:00:40

wife says. Yeah, you really hate talking about yourself,

1:00:42

don't you? Yeah, go on. It's

1:00:45

called work. So we got a letter from

1:00:47

the Queen and you're going like that, ain't you? Oh, come

1:00:49

on. And the message and everyone's going mad. It's

1:00:51

a letter from the Queen. What are we going to wear? We're

1:00:53

going to do it. Deer sugs. What

1:00:56

was it? Deer's

1:00:59

madness. Oh,

1:01:02

awesome stuff.

1:01:04

Yeah, would you like to attend the Queen? It's of course,

1:01:06

yeah, lovely. So we get down there for a

1:01:08

rehearsal. Oh, dear,

1:01:11

it's a bit of a problem. Said Sir Elton

1:01:13

John and Sir Paul McCartney

1:01:15

when I have their own piano, so there ain't no time

1:01:18

for you to get on between. To

1:01:20

some geezer at the back, goes, well, see what?

1:01:22

What was sticking on the roof? Yeah.

1:01:27

And that's as simple as it was, yeah, and

1:01:29

they built us a stage on the roof. I

1:01:32

don't know if it was to try and get us out of the way,

1:01:35

but it couldn't have been more, you know, iconic

1:01:37

or whatever you call it. But that's so

1:01:39

funny. So if Paul and Elton

1:01:42

had been prepared to share a piano... Exactly.

1:01:45

Then we wouldn't have stolen all our lives. They

1:01:48

would have got a look in. I mean,

1:01:50

is

1:01:51

it one of the greatest moments? Definitely,

1:01:54

definitely, definitely. I mean, I love the Queen.

1:01:56

I'm not a mad word, it's the Queen.

1:01:59

I'm not sure whether... processes going

1:02:01

but I did love to clean it

1:02:03

just worked out that we performed good

1:02:05

it looked good you know I mean and it's like

1:02:07

there we are on the roof of Buck in the palace

1:02:09

yeah well I think I'd say it's

1:02:11

not to do a bigger royalist but I think for the three

1:02:14

of us everyone we know yeah she

1:02:16

was the one constant in our entire

1:02:18

lives no day

1:02:20

you were born you know was it 12 prime

1:02:23

ministers came and went in there yeah yeah

1:02:25

but no just yes I say look good

1:02:27

and then they did this projection

1:02:30

which I'd never seen anything right now

1:02:33

it was all the gold

1:02:34

where he turned the whole Buck in the palace into

1:02:36

a block of flats you know just this incredible

1:02:39

the whole look of it yeah yeah did it feel

1:02:41

harder when Chas left

1:02:42

did you feel like that was that was such a big

1:02:45

part of your

1:02:47

yeah to a certain extent mate

1:02:49

yeah I mean he went through his own

1:02:51

reasons I mean he's living in Ibiza he's doing

1:02:53

very well funny enough most of the off the

1:02:55

song our house because the biggest setting

1:02:58

song we've ever had so I'm

1:03:00

pleased in that content I

1:03:02

mean he's happy you know and it you know just

1:03:05

it just goes on whatever it is you know and

1:03:08

then you can only only kind of summarize

1:03:10

bits of it you can't kind of put a old

1:03:13

picture yeah the band goes on

1:03:15

and we go on and people like it and that's the

1:03:17

way it is at the moment

1:03:18

you said in the or it said somewhere that

1:03:21

what we were

1:03:21

shown to read was that this is

1:03:23

the first album you agree not to have known

1:03:25

to do it you know this

1:03:28

is the first album you've agreed on I can't believe

1:03:30

that's true but is

1:03:32

that true I mean I didn't

1:03:35

agree to

1:03:38

that there's a first note so a

1:03:40

great one

1:03:43

but we did it ourselves you know we didn't have

1:03:45

Clive and Alan and all the producers that we've had

1:03:47

over the years and it was quite good fun

1:03:49

just doing it ourselves yeah and I know sometimes

1:03:51

that can end up being a bit

1:03:53

so indulgent but we just rented

1:03:56

this in Dush through a warehouse in Cricklewood

1:03:58

and and because there wasn't any time constraint

1:04:01

on it, we just went on and on and on and on, did

1:04:03

about 40 songs, then argued and argued

1:04:05

and argued and then got them down to about 14 and the album

1:04:08

started to sort of form its own, got

1:04:11

Mike and Freeman to do

1:04:13

a few bits and bobs and... Did you have the idea of the

1:04:15

links? Did that come

1:04:17

early? Mike Bryson had

1:04:19

that idea, our keyboard player, yeah, because we

1:04:21

were talking about doing it as a double album, having

1:04:24

act one, two, three and four, I mean,

1:04:26

double album, come on. But

1:04:28

anyway, then the idea of sort of interspersing

1:04:30

bits of conversation into the... Well

1:04:33

you'd done that on Get Up, hadn't you? You'd

1:04:35

sort of... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So

1:04:37

I mean, you know, just trying to make it interesting,

1:04:40

aren't you? That's what you're trying to do. Hell of a mirror, getting hell

1:04:42

of a mirror, and that was... How did that happen? It wasn't

1:04:44

bad. Yeah, certainly. She reads the

1:04:46

lyrics on a video, right, of Salah V. Have

1:04:49

you not seen it now? I have, I've seen it, yeah. Then

1:04:52

I can't, it just can't get her away from me. I

1:04:54

said, Ellen, please, pack it up, darling. Leave

1:04:57

me alone.

1:04:58

Where did you meet her? Pete and Judd. Yeah.

1:05:02

It's over, it's over, Helen, I said. Helen.

1:05:05

I'm just trying to

1:05:07

think, and I can't go there. Pete

1:05:10

and Pete, and what's it? Pete, yeah, Pete Judd,

1:05:12

yes, well, yeah. Yeah, of course. Tap, tap,

1:05:14

tap, she goes, tap, tap, tap on the window.

1:05:17

Not now. Put

1:05:20

your clothes back on them, now. I've

1:05:23

got a small house in Italy, and she

1:05:25

lives down the road from me, and I've got to know her.

1:05:28

And she's a very nice, very, very nice person,

1:05:30

and just agreed to do it, so that's it. Beautiful.

1:05:33

Judd, thanks for coming on, man. Thank you very

1:05:35

much, mate. Thank you very much, guys. Yeah, yeah,

1:05:37

yeah. Great talking to you, mate. Good fun, it was. As

1:05:39

ever. Good luck with your album. When you're going on tour,

1:05:41

doing a Christmas tour, aren't you? We're

1:05:44

just about to get off, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still

1:05:46

going well. All sold out, and all that, and all that,

1:05:48

and all that. Still good. Ah, he's a jovial

1:05:51

bloke. You know, he's got some great stories, hasn't he? I bet he's

1:05:53

good round a Christmas table. He's very

1:05:55

good round a Christmas table. A buliant,

1:05:58

I would say is the word. How dare you? No,

1:06:02

it's just the way my trousers hang. Is that

1:06:05

what they taught you at Waterloo? Words like that.

1:06:08

Anyway, thank you to our producer Ben Jones

1:06:11

and for Gimme Sugar. We

1:06:15

enjoy this don't we? We love it. We love

1:06:17

it. Especially when it's like that, that

1:06:19

really was. That was just like being

1:06:21

at a great lunch. It was. It

1:06:23

certainly was. Yeah, you haven't paid the bill

1:06:25

again. The next one's

1:06:28

on you. I promise. I can

1:06:30

go back from there. Rock

1:06:32

On Taz is produced by Gimme Sugar Productions,

1:06:35

I wanna music group UK.