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scale. Know long term commitment or contracts

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that stamps.com code. Program. Hello,

0:17

Guy. Hello, Guy. So we don't really

0:19

need to explain who Mark Knopfler is,

0:21

do we? I don't think so. You

0:24

don't need my Bill Frindle figures on the fact

0:26

that this was the most massive album of all

0:28

time. But I was going

0:30

to say, well, it's certainly a great

0:32

opportunity for you to roll out the Bill. I

0:34

mean, the stats. I haven't got

0:36

them on me anyway, because we are doing this face

0:38

to face. I have not brought

0:41

my notes. I'm just sitting here. And you're actually off

0:43

your wing. Because I usually don't have them. That's right.

0:45

You usually have notes. I don't have notes because I

0:47

never refer to them. And I rely

0:49

on you for the facts. I'm

0:51

basically the kind of I'm just tabloid

0:54

speculation. But it's suffice to say that

0:56

the diastrates were unbelievably huge

0:58

in the 80s, unbelievably huge. But it was

1:00

those huge first album was really big. That's

1:02

like the same third. But then it was

1:05

the kind of defining CD, wasn't it? That was

1:07

the thing of Brothers in Arms ushered in the

1:09

digital era. Yeah, because I mean, I remember having

1:11

a CD player and and then Brothers in Arms

1:14

came out and it was recorded digitally and everyone

1:16

was freaking out about this. And

1:18

also we knew already from Love Over

1:20

Gold that, you know, what what

1:22

diastrates made was sort of cinema

1:25

for the years. Yeah. And

1:27

I mean, Telegraph Road or. Probably

1:29

not. I just think that, you know, because listening

1:31

to Telegraph Road earlier and

1:34

I really and it's that it's again, it's got

1:36

that sort of Springsteen, although it's not because Springsteen

1:38

doesn't tell sort of long historical stories, which is

1:40

what that is, isn't it? Like the evolution of

1:43

town. But the thing that makes

1:45

you think Springsteen is because it's actually got Roy Bataan

1:47

on it. There's the same thing. Playing the piano. Yeah.

1:49

But it's also, you know, that that great sort

1:51

of quality of atmosphere that he creates.

1:53

And you kind of knew that Mark was going to

1:56

eventually go into making music

1:58

for film. And of course now we're

2:01

here discussing his solo career, which is even longer than

2:03

his diet career. And with so many great stuff like

2:05

working with Emmylou Harris and stuff. And,

2:07

but what I can't wait to talk

2:09

about is quite possibly the most epic

2:11

guitar lineup ever assembled on a record.

2:14

Yeah, it's this new version of

2:17

his old instrumental. Going home. Going home.

2:19

Who's on it? Who's not on it? Exactly.

2:21

Let's ask him. That should actually kill most of the hour.

2:24

Yes. And

2:26

I'm thrilled to meet him. I feel

2:29

kind of in awe because his guitar. He's a

2:31

triple threat, isn't he? And

2:33

we can ask him to talk to him about this. A

2:36

triple threat. He's a great

2:38

songwriter. He's an incredible singer.

2:41

And wow, what a guitar player. He's

2:43

actually quadruple threat because he's also a

2:45

Georgie. Let's get him on. Welcome to the

2:47

Rock on Surf. Okay,

2:50

guys, I'm ready. But it's a big tune for sure.

2:53

I actually wrote that originally for Tina Turner. Of course,

2:55

I had gone and found Joni Mitchell, Ben Porter and

2:57

brought her back. I've listened to a few of them

2:59

and they've been really good, man. I'm sitting in the

3:02

back of the car coming into London. They're brilliant. That

3:04

caused a big problem in the band, actually.

3:06

I was having too much fun. Thank you

3:08

guys for still being around, still making music,

3:11

still being into it and doing this

3:13

podcast. It's fabulous. Well, I get the feeling

3:15

that us two should go for a

3:17

bite. That's what I think. I'm

3:19

in a band now. It's called Roxy

3:21

Music. You know this thing about the

3:23

10,000 hours of experience. Oh, yeah. Getting

3:25

good at something. When we recorded Arnold

3:27

Lane, we'd done about 50 hours. The

3:30

Rock Hunters podcast with Gary Kemp

3:32

and Guy Pratt. Keep our rockin'!

3:37

Thanks for coming on, Mark. It's a great pleasure.

3:39

I mean, people have

3:41

been boasting about you for

3:43

some reason. So I thought I'd

3:45

check it out. Well, we've had John on, as I told

3:47

you. So a lot

3:50

of the dirt was dished on. A

3:52

lot of the dirt, yeah, yeah. Good. Glad we could

3:54

get that out of the way. Big cleanup job to

3:56

do today. Big cleanup job, obviously. Oh, you mean I

3:58

thought that was done. I

4:00

just want to say congratulations on the new

4:02

record though because it sounds fantastic. We got

4:05

a sneak preview of the album. Do

4:07

you get sneak previews? We did. Well,

4:11

I wouldn't mind hearing it, Mr. O'Neill, but we can't tell

4:13

you who does that. The only

4:15

thing I couldn't find, I couldn't find a list of

4:17

the musicians because you still work, because you've got quite

4:19

a nice regular core of who you work with. Yeah,

4:21

a lovely level. I've got a bit of Danny Cummings,

4:23

as he... Lovely boys. Yeah, Danny on because he's in

4:25

the air. And Yanto Thomas

4:28

on drums. Yanto, yeah. Oh, Yanto, I

4:30

just learned some things with Yanto. Yeah.

4:32

So they're not really great. He works a lot. You

4:35

know, if the national opera comes to town, Yanto

4:37

gets the gig because he can

4:40

read so well. And

4:42

he said, well, he didn't let me read. He might as well do

4:44

it well. And

4:47

that's because he has a proper upbringing

4:50

in the music thing. Do

4:52

you have one? Do you have one? No,

4:54

no, I don't know. Oh, bedroom. Box bedroom.

4:57

Yeah, that one. Wow. On

5:00

behalf of myself, it's certainly pretty. Every musician

5:02

I know, I just want to say an

5:04

honest and very sincere thank you for British

5:07

Grove Studios. Well, because everyone

5:09

I know... Because you just played there with David,

5:11

didn't you? I spent a week in there with

5:13

Steve Gadd playing drums. Well,

5:15

I've never had a bad day in there. And

5:19

it's not because I'm any good. It's because

5:21

the studio is so good. I

5:24

had some very good help. You had

5:26

some great people on hand to

5:29

sort of watch over it as it

5:31

was coming together. And

5:33

one of whom we lost to COVID. Of course,

5:35

yeah. David Stewart. Dave

5:38

Stewart. Yeah. But

5:40

then it was Dave

5:42

Harries, who you probably know from old

5:44

days in air studios, who was

5:47

the first technician to refuse to wear

5:49

a white coat to operate

5:51

the machinery. Amazing. And

5:55

he's actually a bit of a heavy metalhead. is

6:00

give it more heavy fuel. So

6:06

it's a bit like that. And

6:08

also we have Graham Meek

6:10

who's the previous head tech

6:12

of Decca. And

6:16

so it was a good solid technical. But

6:18

to even begin the studio nowadays, it's quite

6:20

a risky business isn't it? Because all the

6:22

studios were closing. I was ready to lose

6:24

money and I did. The

6:26

thing is you've got to be ready

6:28

to subsidize something if you want

6:30

to do it properly like that. And there's

6:34

a huge amount of support for it. You'll

6:36

get somebody who'll call up and go, hey,

6:39

welcome. I've just been down the shed. I've

6:41

just found in a drawer, I just

6:43

found a lot of old valves. And

6:49

we've got a cupboard in the studio full

6:51

of old

6:54

valves for old microphones, old

6:57

things that are really, really rare. And

7:00

there's things in

7:02

boxes and in drawers all

7:04

over the country of people who are

7:06

into one. People go to the old

7:08

microphones that you make. Yeah, because I want to point out because the

7:10

thing I didn't realize because for years, I thought

7:12

there's these two desks on either side of the

7:14

control room, which I thought was sort of ornamental.

7:17

So you've basically got the main desk,

7:20

the mixing desk room. Then you've got

7:22

a Sergeant Pepper era EMI desk. And

7:24

then the dark side of the moon

7:27

era desk. And they're all

7:29

plumbed in. We were running all the drums

7:31

through them. It's insane. Yeah,

7:33

because the outputs of these

7:36

old desks have got to be altered a little

7:38

bit so that they can work with the new

7:40

stuff. Right. And do you curate

7:42

all that, Mark? Are you still looking for gear and thinking

7:44

that's going to be perfect? I don't have to. I

7:47

mean, they'll occasionally waft things

7:49

in front of me. Get

7:51

your checkbook out. Yeah. So,

7:54

but no, actually, we don't have any

7:56

more room seriously for anything like that.

7:58

The one thing we do need is more storage

8:01

space. So on this album, did

8:03

you, which you obviously did there, do you,

8:05

do you record, do you

8:07

write at home? Do you have anything already

8:09

done? I never write in the studio cause

8:11

it's a recording studio. I have a sort

8:13

of reverence for recording studios and

8:16

I feel as though they, I've

8:18

always felt that, that they should really be used

8:20

for recording. If you start writing,

8:24

it doesn't feel right to me if you start

8:26

writing. Do you? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I love

8:28

that, clock's ticking as well. That sounds like, well,

8:30

not for him. But

8:33

that sounds like a great admonishment. It's

8:35

a recording studio. How

8:38

old else do you think you're doing? Well, just because there are,

8:40

I mean, I write in privacy. I

8:43

don't like other people sitting waiting, you know,

8:45

or getting the coffee. And so when you're

8:48

at home doing that, did you

8:50

have all of this album prepared before you went

8:52

in or were you doing it in, as the

8:54

song's coming? You've got to keep looking

8:56

at what you've got. And

8:59

I remember when I was working,

9:01

when I started working with Bob

9:03

Dylan, that he

9:05

would, Bob would get up

9:07

occasionally and just go to his song. And,

9:10

you know, get away from it. It just,

9:12

his song would be on the floor in his bag

9:15

or something. He'd go to it. And I

9:17

was doing the same thing. So I'll

9:19

have the band in there. But

9:21

I'll be checking a lyric,

9:24

just a line, whether, you know, because as

9:26

soon, you both know very well. When

9:29

you start performing something,

9:32

it may very well just change a

9:34

little bit of fret, you know, just

9:36

because it turns, it comes out, it

9:38

comes off differently. A scansion or? Somehow,

9:41

somehow it just, the song thing

9:43

does that to it. You

9:46

know, when it becomes a song, it

9:48

starts to be something else. You

9:51

talk about Dylan, very interesting. Because when

9:53

you produced him, which

9:56

must have been more that light when they asked him. Don't tell

9:58

me when things, I mean, don't ask. No, no, ask. you

10:00

went. Sometimes it was terrible. It was

10:02

terrible on dates. Talk to Kitty, she's

10:04

brilliant on dates. 83 I think was

10:06

the first one or 84. Slow train

10:08

of coming. But were you talking about

10:10

the writing thing? The fact that Dylan

10:13

at that point, because he's had

10:15

this massive Christian revelation and so

10:17

he clearly had a very,

10:19

I think, real strong agenda for what he wanted

10:21

to say on his own. I'm wondering if that

10:24

was maybe a sort of difference of how he

10:26

would usually approach now. Yes, it

10:28

was different because he said to Jerry

10:30

Waxfield, he said, I've been making like home

10:34

records. I want to do like

10:36

a professional way. Wow.

10:40

So that's why you got you in? No, I think,

10:44

no, I think Jerry got me and

10:46

pick in because we

10:48

would just happen to be playing around

10:51

him at that time, at that point.

10:53

Because he just comes to you in

10:55

LA, hadn't he? He came to see

10:57

D'Astrace. We came down in Alabama. I'd

11:00

been down to Alabama or I'd been

11:02

down there just to watch Jerry and

11:04

get to know Barry Beckett. He was

11:06

a wonderful guy. And I

11:09

got to be pally with Barry and I learned a

11:12

lot from Barry. And in

11:14

fact, I learned any little bit that I did

11:16

learn. I learned

11:18

from great engineers really.

11:21

Which is why I never learned to be an engineer. I pretty

11:26

soon reckoned that it was beyond me. But

11:28

I was lucky enough to work with some

11:31

great engineers from the beginning. Rhett Davies first

11:33

out there. Oh, you're off. Did Rhett do

11:35

music? Yeah, but it was Rhett who stole

11:38

me from this Australian van Icehouse to play

11:40

with Brian Ferry. He was one of the

11:42

most important people in my life. Exactly. And

11:44

he was engineering the first album with much,

11:47

you know, with

11:49

Muffinwood. Right, right. And

11:53

not, well, if we can't get a

11:55

record out of that, we're all custards. I

11:57

used to say things like that. And

12:00

Steve's brother, lovely man. Another

12:03

lovely man. Love the tune. That used

12:05

to be a famous thing when Muff

12:07

was doing A&R,

12:09

CBS, he liked everything.

12:12

There used to be a thing of people saying, we've got

12:14

this meeting at CBS, we're really excited about it. And

12:17

friends of yours would go, how'd it

12:19

go? Muff really liked the tune. He's

12:21

now saying, Muff likes everything. Muff

12:24

is our A&R man. He played with Creedence?

12:30

He's a very special agent. Creedence, I don't know where

12:32

that came from. Creedence,

12:34

Aston, Revive, we'll get it. I

12:39

just wanted to... I

12:41

spend a lot of time talking with a

12:43

mate about music, and he plays in

12:46

a band in pubs at night. They

12:49

have all the work they can handle. They're just playing their hits.

12:53

So we talk a lot about Creedence songs.

12:56

That was just a comment. Those songs were so great.

13:00

And the conversation will come

13:03

round to Creedence songs. And

13:05

to the singer. That voice. The

13:10

new album is called One Deep River. It's

13:12

the time, isn't it? Yes. And

13:15

this connection that you have with... Spoiler!

13:18

With Newcastle. And

13:22

this is what I've always admired about what you do. Right

13:24

from the very beginning, on the first album, for

13:27

Dire Straits, is taking

13:29

American music, that Americana,

13:32

but instead of singing about America, singing

13:35

about stuff that we know, singing about the West End

13:37

of London or Newcastle. How

13:41

did you pull that together? It was

13:43

deliberate. What I really wanted to try to

13:45

do was... I

13:48

don't know whether it came off, but I wanted to

13:50

try to make the geography. Because

13:53

if you were in America, you had the geography.

13:55

You had Route 66, didn't you? And

13:58

you had it all. And that's going

14:00

back a long way into the

14:02

music, you know, the history of

14:05

the music. And you had Pennsylvania's

14:07

six, five thousand. Because it was

14:09

the pride they had in their

14:11

country. Yeah, and just the whole

14:13

thing spoke music. And so

14:16

I was trying to just do the same

14:18

with my own little geography. So if I

14:20

was going south, I'd

14:23

write a song like Southbound Again, trying

14:25

to bring my own, you know, going

14:27

down to London, trying to bring my own

14:30

move, my own movement into

14:33

it. But you're right,

14:35

because actually what Springsteen did is because this

14:38

whole thing of the drama of American places,

14:41

but the funny thing is because if

14:44

you're not singing about the wide open spaces, the

14:46

stuff that Springsteen used to write about, when he

14:48

said, we'll meet underneath that giant exon sign that

14:50

brings this fair city line. He's talking about the

14:53

equivalent of an Esso garage in Baselton. And

14:56

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that,

14:58

you know, we'd reached a time in in our evolution

15:01

as a country where we were a bit

15:04

cynical about the place. And

15:06

and it didn't have the same aspirational

15:08

quality that Americana did. But

15:10

I think what you also embraced was folk

15:13

music. Yeah. There's always been elements of

15:15

that, which is about the ordinary people

15:17

in that country. Yeah. And I

15:19

had this duality thing going on

15:22

all the time because for

15:25

so long, you know, I want an

15:28

electric guitar like that. That very

15:30

thing actually very similar to that. That's why I wanted

15:33

the solid version. I wanted the Stratocaster

15:35

lookalike. But I

15:38

had to wait. I had to wait and wait.

15:40

And so I borrow acoustic guitars from friends and

15:44

very bad ones. And

15:46

but I did start going into folk

15:49

joints and and was exposed to

15:51

a lot of folk music. And

15:53

so the beauty of that was

15:55

that I

15:57

had to really learn how to finger

15:59

pick. I had a sort

16:01

of singing nun figure pick, which

16:05

didn't get me very far. Not Travis.

16:09

Then that famous nun Travis. And

16:13

then a folk singer up

16:15

in Newcastle taught me how to do the claw

16:17

hammer thing, which the picking, which is

16:20

four beats to the bar with the thumb. And

16:22

that really made a difference. Wanting

16:25

to be a rocker, wanting to play the blues,

16:27

wanting to play in a blues band, desperately

16:30

wanting all of that stuff. But

16:33

at the same time, being exposed to an

16:35

awful lot of acoustic music as well. Because

16:37

it was a revival in the early 70s.

16:40

And actually my thing with the blues was

16:43

I got even more fortunate because

16:45

I got in leads, when

16:47

I moved to leads to work, I

16:51

got to know a guy called Steve Phillips who

16:53

was a blues singer and he had national steel

16:55

guitars and he had a proper record

16:58

collection, records specially delivered

17:00

from the States. And

17:02

so I got to hear

17:04

a lot of early blues singers

17:07

and got exposed to

17:09

a lot of other music too that

17:11

became like ragtime music, jug band music,

17:13

all sorts of, and rare

17:16

hillbilly music as well, white music

17:19

as well as black music and

17:22

the whole thing just broadened.

17:24

But did you start on sort

17:26

of boogie boogie piano for your

17:28

uncle Kingsley? Kingsley, bless him. Did

17:31

you read about uncle Kingsley? I read a bit

17:33

about uncle Kingsley. I love that term recently. Kingsley

17:37

was just, it was so much fun. I

17:39

just think everyone should have an uncle called

17:41

Kingsley. Yeah, he was brilliant. This is in

17:43

Newcastle I guess. No,

17:45

yes, in Newcastle. But we were

17:47

in Glasgow at the time and

17:49

we'd visit every now and again

17:53

where my nana lived, where mum's

17:55

mum lived. And Kingsley was

17:58

one of her sons. And so we,

18:01

but he blew a harmonica. He'd do the

18:03

runaway train on a harmonica and he had

18:06

a banjo, which he couldn't play, but I

18:08

just still thought, how cool to have a

18:10

banjo. And

18:12

he kind of a skiffle head. Yeah, he would

18:14

have been. And he played, he

18:17

played a bit of Boogie Woogie, which, and when I

18:19

heard Boogie Woogie on a piano for

18:22

the first time, I just remember these

18:25

great blocks of logic just sailing

18:27

into place. And I was bang. This

18:30

is for me. And I was four, I think,

18:32

of course, however old I was. I just remember

18:34

thinking, this is, this

18:36

is, I'm going, that's where I'm going. You

18:39

know, I'm headed in that direction. And how

18:41

come you ended up on the guitar? I

18:44

always wanted the guitar from the very, very beginning.

18:46

I think I must have been pointed to a

18:48

white plastic one in a toy shop window and

18:51

said, I want that. And I wasn't

18:53

allowed to have it. And you

18:55

know, it's a good thing. I think a

18:57

bit of one thing doesn't hurt too much.

19:03

And of course, it became slightly

19:05

obsessed, I think, with the guitar. What's

19:08

wrong with being slightly obsessed as long as

19:10

it didn't make me into a Raven Moon?

19:13

I, you know, just kept wanting a guitar.

19:16

Because I think, wasn't there, there's a shop in

19:18

one of the arcades in New Castle, Windows of

19:20

course. Yeah. Easy

19:22

name to remember. Windows, you have to nose press stuff

19:24

against it a lot of the time. There's a thing,

19:26

because I know what you mean, because I'm sure you

19:28

had this guy. There's that thing when I spent all

19:30

of my school holidays just on Charing Cross Road. Yeah.

19:33

Denmark Street, just looking at guitars. And

19:35

once you've got one, there's

19:38

something different about those

19:40

shops that aren't quite the same because they just

19:42

had this unattainable thing, you know, in that smell.

19:44

I think you always want the next one up,

19:47

though, don't you? Yeah. You know,

19:49

you start with the one your parents give you for Christmas. So I

19:51

know you got a guitar, but you got quite a good guitar, didn't

19:53

you, from your... Well, it was 50 quid. It

19:56

was the solid body version of that same

19:58

price. The halfner. were about 50

20:00

quid when I was 15. Had

20:02

you chosen that? Or did you find that? Yeah, oh

20:04

no, they wanted me to have a

20:07

nice, you know, in the shop and my dad

20:09

said, why don't you get a nice wooden

20:12

F-holes? You know, and to me

20:14

it had to be like hanks

20:17

from the shadows, you know? So I couldn't

20:19

have a strap. I couldn't have a fender.

20:22

Cause they were too expensive for my old man.

20:24

So it was 50 quid. But

20:27

you, you took it out. That was his limit really. Yeah,

20:31

but in those days, mate. Yeah, what did he

20:33

do for a living? I want to know. He

20:36

was a CEO. No,

20:40

he worked in the city architects

20:42

department and he never changed. He

20:44

just wanted to work for the public. So he never

20:47

went private. Oh, that's not a good socialist.

20:49

So yeah, so that's what he

20:51

used to call the Marchitex. You

20:53

know, so he just wanted to

20:55

work for the public. As

20:59

you ended up doing as well, really, if you like.

21:02

We work for the public, don't we? I guess. But

21:05

if you brought that electric guitar home, solid

21:07

body, you're not getting much of the

21:09

sound out of it. Well, I didn't really realize

21:11

that. I mean, I hadn't thought about an amplifier.

21:13

I was so overcome with the ones in the

21:16

guitar, you know? And I

21:19

got somebody to change the jack

21:21

plug that came with the guitar and

21:24

to plug it into the back of the

21:26

radio, the old radio that we had now.

21:30

I just blew up the radio in about three

21:32

days. I don't think it lasted very long. I

21:34

had the same thing with my first bass because

21:36

my parents said, why don't you get a nice

21:38

acoustic? I didn't want a bass. I wanted an

21:40

electric guitar. And they said, why

21:42

don't you get a nice acoustic guitar? And it's like,

21:45

well, a toaster would be nearer what I'm after than

21:47

an acoustic guitar. The electric bit. It's what I asked

21:49

for a bass. But I didn't think, why? I didn't

21:51

have an amp. And I managed to get my mind

21:53

wired up to the back of the studio. Same

21:56

thing. But the only thing was I could

21:58

play the bass and I could play. records but

22:00

not at the same time. So

22:03

you have to listen, just like the listening didn't

22:05

play along to the memory. Yeah, no, I know

22:07

how you must have felt because I didn't

22:10

really have a record collection ever and

22:12

not exactly. I mean, I have

22:14

times when I'd listen to other people's records

22:18

like anything. But I

22:20

never... This is another good thing

22:23

though, I think, in a way is that

22:26

when you... It's how you copy. Some

22:28

people would just copy absolutely every inflection

22:31

and every note. I never had a record

22:33

to do that with. Some

22:35

people would do... And jazzers used to

22:37

do it, I think. You know, I think... Throw

22:40

down the record. Yeah, and I think they would

22:42

be dropping the needles on things. I think even

22:44

people like Charlie Parker would be doing things like

22:47

that, just disappear with some records and then just

22:50

play them and play them and play them and play them.

22:53

But I never quite did that. I fell in

22:55

love with, say, so many people that I fell

22:57

in love with BB King. And

22:59

so I tried to play

23:02

like that, but I couldn't... Don't

23:05

think I ever really sat down and

23:07

kept dropping the needle on something

23:10

again and again and again because I

23:12

didn't really think I had a needle

23:15

to drop particularly. Or

23:17

a record collection per se, they would

23:19

be temporary. I might be

23:21

in with a record for

23:23

a while, but it would probably never really

23:25

be... So your style became an amalgam

23:28

of all these pieces. Yeah, although I have to say,

23:30

Mark, I can still hear Hank in some of the

23:32

stuff you do. It's just

23:34

that choice of sound and melody

23:36

that, you know... The fact that

23:38

you played with... Sorry, sorry, but

23:41

you had that fabulously clean sound

23:43

at a time when people were

23:45

playing guitar in that arena didn't

23:47

at all. Well I was playing... When

23:51

I started playing with a

23:54

Strat, I was

23:57

already starting to play with my fingers. I'd

24:00

have a pick in my pocket so I could always

24:03

do both things. So

24:06

I started playing with a plexion. And

24:09

a plex is the

24:11

best thing in guitar. I mean, it's

24:13

louder, it's cleaner, you both

24:15

know that. You know that gives a

24:17

nice, the best signal for

24:20

recording. It's fantastic. The

24:23

finger thing was just a bit of a mess

24:25

that just came together slowly.

24:29

And I kept losing picks. And

24:32

I was starting, the finger style

24:34

was starting to

24:36

jump across the strings rather than the

24:39

thumb just being on the lower strings. It

24:43

was starting to wander up where it

24:45

didn't belong. And so I

24:47

was starting to develop a style which any

24:50

guitar teacher would tell you is just wrong.

24:54

And... Apparently because I guess you're

24:56

left-handed but you were playing it

24:58

right-handed. Oh, thank you. Oh, yes.

25:01

Sorry, my brethren. Are you? Yes.

25:03

So I think one of the above... I've been saying

25:05

that my whole life. I forgot that. I'm

25:08

always going, yeah, Mark Monoff is the

25:10

same, you know. Yeah, well then... He

25:12

makes love left-handed. Well, you're a secret

25:14

lord. Was that? So that was your

25:16

secret. I think... I don't have

25:18

a strong... I mean, I'm

25:21

sorry, I've just realised that we are

25:23

a minority here, Gary, and

25:25

we could be persecuted. So... Be

25:27

gentle with him, Gary. Be gentle. But

25:29

did you not... I mean, was it just the way

25:31

you picked it up? Yeah,

25:34

well, I think if I picked... When I picked up

25:37

a tennis racket to play guitar on it... Yeah.

25:40

I picked it up left-handed, yeah. Oh.

25:42

But your parents gave you a right-handed guitar.

25:44

And Ruth did. My sister said, turned it

25:46

right-handed. I remember returning the tennis racket around,

25:48

she said, you played that way. And

25:51

then I had some violin lessons at school, which

25:54

never got anywhere, because I

25:56

wanted to play guitar. But

25:59

once... I was playing a bit

26:01

of violin. The guitar had to

26:03

be that way. Because all violins are played right-handed.

26:05

There's no such thing. Otherwise, they'd be sticking bows

26:07

in each other's... That would be like, yeah. Well,

26:10

to me, it always just seems to make more

26:12

sense, because that's actually the hand that's doing the sort

26:15

of more complicated stuff, although you were finger-picking. But

26:17

the one thing I do remember being aware

26:19

of, even as a complete novice, was

26:22

that when I started playing, I

26:24

got pretty nifty quickly compared

26:27

to the people around me. But I

26:29

sounded terrible. You were really...

26:31

No, it's just the actual sound. I was thinking in

26:33

my face. That took me a long time. A long

26:35

time. Yeah, and I've put so much... I met that

26:38

last week. You know, yeah. I have

26:40

such admiration for bass

26:42

players, because I've tried to play bass

26:44

occasionally, and it's exactly as you say.

26:48

There's such a lot in that right hand, isn't

26:50

there? Yeah. What do you mean?

26:52

How hard can it be? So

26:56

you ended up going... Enough of him,

26:58

anyway. You went down to London then.

27:01

That was really just because... What,

27:03

you didn't feel it leads was going to be the place

27:05

for you to find a band? I wanted

27:07

to go to university because I'd

27:10

missed that bit out, and I felt as though

27:12

I didn't know anything. I

27:14

left the newspaper. I was working as

27:17

a junior on a newspaper.

27:19

There was a beautiful song about that on your

27:21

last album. Really, really lovely song about

27:23

being in the office. Yeah. So

27:26

anyway, thank you.

27:30

But I... And

27:32

I tell you what, it sorted me out as

27:34

a kid. I think I... You

27:37

had to wake up, you know. I had to get

27:39

myself organised. I think

27:42

a job on a newspaper makes

27:44

you do that and makes you understand the way

27:46

the world works a little bit. Well, also, what

27:48

I was saying is that because of the way

27:50

you write, I wonder about it, because I'm

27:52

wondering which way around it came, because you clearly

27:55

have a great nose for a story, for

27:57

all your songs, for a great story. But I'm wondering

27:59

if... that came from being a journalist or

28:02

it was the other way around. It was a

28:04

game of journalists because you naturally haven't known for

28:06

it. No, it actually made me into a songwriter

28:08

I think. Oh, there you go. I didn't see

28:11

myself as a songwriter at all. I just thought

28:13

that's drama. I was just a drummer. And

28:15

I remember some of

28:17

the stories that I was doing for the paper, I'd

28:20

seen them in the notebook, bits of them in

28:22

my notebook afterwards, and they'd

28:24

started creeping into the songs. So

28:27

I felt was sent to interview the

28:29

cast of the city varieties

28:31

of the leads and

28:34

go and talk to the cast of

28:37

the pantomime. And I'd be

28:39

talking to the ugly sisters, you know, a couple

28:41

of little dudes, you know, we're

28:43

proud to be the oldest ugly sisters in the

28:45

world. And that became

28:47

one more matinee song one more. Right. And, and, and, and so I

28:49

started taking their

29:01

lines and making them into lines in the

29:03

song. And I think that's when

29:06

I did transferred, I might have

29:08

had bits of songs. But

29:10

I didn't certainly didn't I was busy

29:12

copying songs. I don't

29:14

think I was can

29:17

see myself as a songwriter at all.

29:19

And so I sort of eased

29:22

into that, that way, and

29:25

ended up being the guy who writes the songs.

29:27

And I now

29:29

I think I

29:31

am a songwriter and a musician

29:34

second very different from being

29:36

a songwriter to me is very different from

29:38

being a musician.

29:40

Yeah, absolutely. And because you spend

29:43

a lot more time on on

29:45

words, probably. Yeah, exactly. That's

29:47

the most important part neglecting the guitar,

29:50

because it's very rare to have, you

29:52

know, because you are to have

29:55

someone who's such a virtually virtuoso as

29:57

a musician to be a songwriter as

29:59

well. Excuse me. Yeah, so I bit the guy

30:01

who came in I described you as a triple threat You

30:03

can you can see you can play guitar and you write

30:06

great songs Well, I mean very often the guy who writes

30:08

the songs is the guy who knows the least chords in

30:10

the band Well,

30:13

and now that is true and You

30:16

know, and I just through this

30:18

pandemic for instance, I mean the amount of playing

30:21

I've done nothing and

30:23

I've had covered three times and I Think

30:26

I just stopped playing for a lot of

30:28

that and I'd stopped playing for a lot

30:30

of time before and I've just be busy

30:32

writing songs and Story

30:35

touring and and when

30:37

you're touring Yes,

30:40

just writing songs more writing songs

30:42

writing songs and neglecting

30:45

the playing so because the songs tend to

30:47

be nursery rhymes and So

30:49

you're not really? Concentrating the way,

30:52

you know, if I think about a musician

30:55

if I think about say the guy who

30:58

plays say bass in my My

31:00

band that be Glenn Wolf and

31:02

more. Yeah There's

31:05

a man with a

31:07

relationship with his instrument that

31:09

is enviable and and

31:11

and also he can play Got

31:15

me tied up with him in the first

31:17

place you can play stand-up. He's essentially a

31:19

country player, isn't he? That's where he comes

31:21

from not suppose. Are you saying that what

31:23

drives your thing in the world? We would

31:25

cry to your songs. Mostly is the storytelling.

31:27

Do you think that's what inspires the music?

31:29

Yes, I think so and But

31:33

but but it's not the the

31:35

music what I mean is that if

31:38

if you take Someone like Yantu

31:40

or someone like Jim Cox on

31:42

the piano The

31:44

relationship with the instrument is absolute, you

31:47

know, it's total It's it

31:49

and I can't get that going with the guitar

31:51

now I'll be

31:53

so I'll be spending time looking at the

31:55

songs the songs the songs Are you separate

31:58

the better be the sound you? being

32:00

inspired by the sound of a

32:02

particular instrument or a song. So that's

32:05

different but anyway, so that's a

32:07

relationship with the instrument

32:10

generally which you have to

32:12

have as opposed to one particular instrument. Yeah, I mean

32:14

you fall in love with the sounds just like I

32:16

fell in love with Hank, you

32:18

know with the sound of the guitar

32:21

as a kid and I'd

32:24

be getting into trouble for what's

32:27

that sound. That first album with

32:29

Salton's The Swing was very much about the Fender

32:31

Strat, that was the C-Dart. Yeah.

32:34

And what's the little point to make is that

32:36

Ed Bicknell who was your manager and then Bam

32:38

mate, not Hilby, that when he came to C-Dart

32:41

straight the first time, it was the fact that

32:43

you had a red Strat. Yeah, a red Strat

32:45

and sounding. Otherwise might well not have managed it.

32:47

And probably clean sounding as well at that point.

32:49

You've all got Buddy Holly and Hank to thank.

32:52

Yeah, absolutely. When

32:54

I'm playing a song like Why

32:57

Worry, we used to call

32:59

it Why Bother, I

33:01

think of Buddy, those three chords and

33:04

just do do do do do do do do

33:06

do do. You know,

33:09

and there was one point

33:11

where this is what happens,

33:14

this is what happened, the gift that

33:16

songs brought me with what I call circular

33:20

moments where you've written the song. I

33:24

used to worship the Everly Brothers and

33:28

the Everly Brothers were singing it, they'd recorded it

33:31

and they were singing it and I was playing

33:33

in the band. Not

33:35

on their recording, but I

33:38

was playing in the band. We were doing a

33:40

show with Chad Atkins in

33:42

Nashville in Vanderbilt

33:44

and TV shows and

33:47

the Everly's were singing there and I'm standing

33:49

there going there. That's the Ev's

33:51

and they're singing my song and

33:55

those moments I've had a

33:57

few, I had one with the Shavs where they'd

33:59

recorded the local. hero. It

34:01

was Hank played it. Yeah, yeah. Hank used

34:03

to get up with us at the end

34:05

of a set and do that quite often.

34:08

But they

34:10

were yeah, but but when

34:12

I remember standing with the Dominion

34:14

Theatre remember standing on stage

34:16

with the shadows, you know,

34:19

the steps. I never mastered

34:22

the steps. I may have

34:24

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stamps.com code PROGRAM. We

36:29

were talking about your songwriting,

36:32

you know, being an observer and a journalist

36:34

in your style because that's where Sultan's came

36:36

from, didn't it? Yeah. That was you and

36:38

you don't mind telling the story. The thing

36:41

is, you tell stories in your songs all

36:43

the time but now the greatest stories are

36:45

your own. Yeah, well there can be situation

36:47

songs where the circumstances

36:50

are just right because there's

36:52

a little guy in a sweater, in

36:56

a grubby sweater and he looks like a

36:58

geography teacher, you know. He's

37:00

surrounded by other guys like that, you

37:02

know, who are all in

37:05

the band and this decidedly grubby

37:07

little South London pub. Can

37:09

you remember the pub? Well, I

37:12

used to know the name of the pub and I

37:15

could take you there if it's still there in Greenwich.

37:17

It says a plaque, really. And

37:19

he said at the end of the night, he

37:21

said, well, this is we're gonna on the last

37:24

song now, he said, we are the we

37:26

are the sultans of swing and I know

37:30

they are so not the sultans

37:32

of swing, you know, it's such

37:34

a glamorous name, isn't it? You know,

37:36

the sultans of swing. But do you

37:39

think, but was that

37:41

just a description he was giving them or that was

37:43

actually the band name? That was his band name. They

37:46

were the sultans of swing. So what he

37:48

had known, then one day he's listening to

37:50

the radio and you go, the sultans of

37:52

swing and there's someone going, wait a minute.

37:55

He said the line, we are the sultans

37:57

of swing. But this is the beautiful

37:59

thing that you up writing that song in

38:01

a band that maybe is a

38:03

little out of its time, you know, punks happening and

38:06

you're playing in this sort of

38:08

slightly old-school style and there's

38:10

an irony about you guys singing

38:13

songs and swinging. You haven't even got a record

38:15

contract. Of course it becomes one of the biggest

38:17

songs ever. So the journey that the song

38:19

took was very personal to you. Yeah and

38:21

then later on that same sort of thing

38:23

would happen a little bit later on. I

38:25

was in

38:27

a kitchen display area.

38:30

I was in an electrical shop in

38:33

New York and there was

38:35

a wall of TVs and they were

38:37

all tuned to MTV and

38:39

there was a delivery bloke in there

38:42

sounding off about the artists

38:44

that were on the MTV thing, you know, and

38:47

it was hilarious. I was laughing at him and

38:50

no, I didn't want him to see me laughing. So

38:52

I had to sort of retreat and

38:55

I was spying on him really through

38:57

a gap in the microwave, you know,

39:00

and I was still laughing when I

39:02

actually went and asked for a piece of

39:04

paper and a pen, you know, for reception

39:06

thing and I sat down in

39:08

the kitchen display area in the front of the

39:10

store and started writing the

39:12

song and that song, I mean

39:16

he'd given me the lines that ain't working,

39:19

you know, and maybe get a blister on

39:21

your finger, you know, and stuff. So

39:24

it was, he'd given me

39:26

the, it sort of was like the South Mr.

39:28

Swing and it was a situation. It

39:31

was there and sometimes you just

39:33

get the little bells going off that

39:36

they combine. You know, for instance, I

39:38

remember I was on

39:40

a plane looking down at Philadelphia and

39:43

it was just big

39:46

motorways and big chemical works

39:48

and refineries and that was

39:50

Philadelphia and I

39:52

was reading a book at the time on the plane.

39:55

I was reading a book called Mason and Dixon about

39:58

the Mason Dixon line, Mason and Dixon. two

40:00

guys that come out from England on

40:02

a bar. It used to come out

40:04

by ship. It used to take a few weeks to

40:07

sail over. It

40:10

wasn't that long ago, really, that

40:12

there was nothing there. And now America's

40:16

just grown so fast and looking

40:18

down on it from that height. The song

40:20

comes together because

40:23

there are certain

40:26

conditions and it

40:28

strikes you. Because they were frightened of

40:32

the interior. Nobody had actually been to

40:36

the interior of America when they went there.

40:39

They didn't know what they were going to find. It was

40:41

just savages and possibly the unknown. This

40:48

is also ringing romantic bells with you

40:50

because this is what a rock band

40:52

is doing. You're coming over from England

40:55

and you're suddenly in every state in

40:57

the cross America. You're so right. I

40:59

hadn't really thought of it that way,

41:01

but you're dead right. That

41:04

was always the question, wasn't it? Did they

41:06

break America? How did you get on in

41:09

the state? Did

41:13

they break America? But

41:16

with Telegraph Road, you did the same thing. Were you sitting up the

41:18

front of the bus? Telegraph

41:21

Road was there and I

41:23

saw the sign Telegraph Road

41:25

and I could see 12 lanes of

41:27

traffic. And I thought,

41:29

what was this once? And

41:32

of course, it's what they call linear development,

41:34

I think, remembering

41:37

from my job. Building

41:39

buildings down the main road. Down

41:42

the road, exactly that. And

41:45

then that becomes modern America

41:47

with the Texas Coast Station. And

41:53

that development has been so quick,

41:55

so fast. So

41:58

that's how... And

42:00

so ugly. There's challenges. Yeah,

42:03

but that's how... That's what...

42:07

And I've actually seen it happen because I

42:09

actually went to Nashville to record

42:11

there because I didn't have a studio. And it

42:13

was, I think it was 83. It's

42:16

a different place now. Oh yeah,

42:18

yeah. The thing with Nashville is, no, but that's because

42:20

everyone moved to Nashville. That was a funny thing, wasn't

42:22

it? It was the country place. And

42:24

that's like every... Yeah, I

42:27

wasn't going there to make country music though. I

42:29

was just writing my songs. No, but I mean,

42:31

I know people in heavy metal bands all live

42:33

in Nashville now. Everyone lives in Nashville. That's become

42:35

it. Yeah. That's

42:37

funny, isn't it? But there's also a song

42:39

you wrote about Aleuthea. And

42:41

this is what I love about your writing. And

42:43

what I find it... This is

42:45

inspirational, thinking more about this

42:47

recently as a songwriter myself, is

42:50

you took some of his goodbyes on his emails

42:53

because he was building a guitar for you. Yeah.

42:56

John Montaglione, who comes from a

42:58

long line of genius

43:01

guitar builders, and

43:03

again, he was making me that nice acoustic

43:05

guitar that your parents always wanted you to

43:08

have, or that your parents wanted you

43:10

to have. And yeah,

43:13

that goes back to

43:15

a tradition in New York, building those

43:17

guitars. And that goes back even further

43:19

to a tradition of building violins and

43:22

cremona in Italy. And

43:24

that goes back to the Stradivarius

43:26

and the Guinarian, the

43:28

Amati. Amati is it? They're

43:31

the great violinists.

43:34

And they always had... The

43:37

great violin makers always had apprentices.

43:40

And I was thinking about John Montaglione

43:43

because he was... Because

43:45

there used to be a princess to great

43:50

guitar builders in New York. And

43:52

John was the last of a line

43:54

and didn't have an apprentice because he

43:56

couldn't find kids these days to have

43:59

got the patience. for it or whatever

44:01

it is. And so I

44:03

was thinking about that. But John used to sign

44:05

off emails to me with

44:08

little lines saying, well, I've got

44:10

to get back the chisels I call in, you

44:13

know, and it's time to make sawdust.

44:16

And that's what I thought. So

44:18

I ended up writing the song

44:21

about once he sent

44:23

me a piece of wood, because he would always

44:25

be listening to the wood, you know, like

44:27

that, knocking, just not wrapping on

44:30

the wood like that. And

44:32

one day, one of

44:34

his mandolins, I thought, was

44:37

the same shape as his mandolin,

44:39

beautiful piece of maple. And

44:42

the wood was about half an inch thick, and

44:45

cut out in the shape of one of his

44:47

mandolins. And I opened it up

44:50

and he said, I've sent you this as a cheese board.

44:52

He said, you

44:54

know, because obviously, it wasn't

44:57

sounding right for him. So

44:59

he made it into a cheese board. So I've got

45:01

a Montagnone cheese board. And

45:06

when you first started with your

45:08

demos, but just so famous, because I remember,

45:10

do you not remember the story of everything?

45:12

Oh, yeah, they could never reproduce sultans of

45:14

swing. And the demo

45:17

had to be the one in the end. But that

45:19

used to be the massive thing, which of course doesn't

45:21

exist now, does it? Because whatever you start working on,

45:24

it just becomes, but it used to be, we can't,

45:26

you can't go for the sound of the demo. Well,

45:30

you must have spent a lot of time doing that

45:33

in your career. Yeah, yeah. Well, we I,

45:35

in my band, we did our first demos

45:37

at pathway in Islington, because we were all

45:40

Islington boys. And that's where I remember going

45:42

in there and everyone saying, this is where

45:44

sultans was recorded. Yeah,

45:46

pathway was amazing, wasn't it? Yeah,

45:48

there was a little the control

45:50

room had a bench. I

45:53

mean, the control room room, it wasn't any bigger

45:55

than that rug. Was it? Probably

45:57

not. No, you're right. You know, you'd sit down.

46:00

one end of it and that

46:02

was a window and a

46:04

little studio but it was

46:06

an eight-track studio and I remember

46:09

Charles Harrington who was engineer there

46:12

who came ended up doing

46:14

lights for us. I remember him

46:16

talking about because the reggae bands used to go

46:18

in there as well and

46:20

you know sometimes there'd be a lot of

46:23

serious dope smoking going on in there. And

46:26

Charles was laughing about something that

46:28

had happened the night before he said. He

46:31

said I was sitting here he said it was

46:33

the early hours of the morning suddenly this boom

46:35

comes through the speakers he didn't really blew the

46:38

speakers out. He said what

46:40

was that? He said quick edit

46:42

man tighten that in the T. Could

46:47

you reproduce what you wanted when you went back in when you went

46:49

in with Muff? What do we all

46:51

hear? We all hit the re- really

46:57

stripped down band wasn't it? Because

46:59

Pick wasn't a heavy metal drummer

47:02

by any stretch of imagination. Pick

47:04

was a school drummer who's great

47:07

but he was he'd done a lot of voice

47:09

reggae. He was doing it yes he was he's

47:11

doing a lot of folk music actually. He'd

47:14

come up doing quite a lot of folk

47:16

rock and but he was really

47:18

really precise and I remember Muff

47:20

telling him Pick you know

47:22

just let's don't stop doing

47:24

all that stuff on the top he said just make

47:27

it more basic you know he was

47:29

always telling him to simplify it.

47:33

Story of my life. Story of your life. Yeah go on

47:36

go. Well Mr. Well

47:38

no because I was just really interested in

47:40

those early days what looked like who your

47:42

peers were on that circuit because also because

47:44

when you were talking about writing I just

47:46

thought it was a shame that we never

47:49

got to mention Brewer's Droop. Yeah. Which is

47:51

without a doubt the most definitively named public

47:53

rock band ever. Yeah. That

47:55

is literally ground zero for public.

47:58

They gave the groupies a warning before. Yeah,

48:01

so yeah, well what happened there was

48:03

that it was the melody maker came

48:05

out every week and he used to

48:07

have the ads in the back. No

48:10

breadheads or time wasters. You've

48:12

been that man, right? And

48:17

if you had an ad

48:20

that you could afford an ad in

48:22

the back that wasn't just a small

48:24

ad that was a bigger ad, it

48:27

meant that there was a recording band. And

48:30

it actually did say so. It said, yeah, band,

48:33

RCA band or record contract or whatever

48:35

it was. And

48:37

so I just left college that

48:40

minute and went straight down straight

48:42

to the audition. And you weren't

48:44

writing then though? No, not really.

48:46

Went straight to the audition. When

48:49

I got off the train to High

48:52

Wicom and I was walking along to

48:54

the pub where they were having these

48:56

auditions, I could see a trail of

48:58

guitarists coming back the other way into

49:00

the station. You

49:02

know, because you had to get this train

49:04

out of that. And

49:07

that's what that was. It was actually when

49:09

I left, it was still a

49:11

trail of guitar players. Back

49:13

then, as now, there was more guitar players

49:16

and there were good jobs and more bass

49:18

players too. Did you have what

49:20

it took? Yeah, so I passed

49:22

that audition. And so

49:24

I was in the band for all of two

49:27

months or however long and they promised that

49:29

they'd give me 25 pounds a

49:31

week, which they never did. And

49:34

all of those things. And

49:36

so it was more than a couple

49:39

of months, I think. But it

49:41

was a lot of just

49:44

more sawdust on the floor gates. We

49:47

did a few colleges and I

49:50

realized something then, though, that

49:52

you didn't have to. I

49:54

always thought that had a sort of a Kid's

49:57

idea of bands. Grew.

50:00

Up thinking. They. Had to be.

50:02

You had to get along well and everything

50:04

in there are so I notice that it

50:07

wasn't exactly. And you know, Wine.

50:09

And roses with the. With Sam.

50:12

Am. so it was subtle. You know

50:14

it was. It is what I always

50:17

wanted to do and there was an

50:19

actually very shortly after I joined up

50:21

with them. We. Went to Rock Field.

50:24

And. I saw was is

50:26

that your first studio eyes are went into

50:28

Iraq field and then recorded a little bit

50:31

in that into. That. Was my

50:33

first experience was that can actually. I

50:36

don't know and I don't know, but I

50:38

do remember. Meeting. Day

50:40

that months because he was recording is

50:43

something in a have Told You So

50:45

save with that plays mostly by the

50:47

news. yeah and it was a it

50:49

just I remember just these big cheap

50:51

Jbl speakers. I'm all.

50:54

Going flat out. And. Hairsplitting.

50:57

And them. He was loud

50:59

and and Dave wanted them. Flat

51:02

out he wanted if you turned

51:04

them down from ten to nine.

51:06

You'd. Notice that be something wrong. Esposito,

51:09

Sadly against your style. That

51:11

was someone that was that was that was

51:13

that was Dave wasn't producing That was at

51:15

Vanilla and was happening. I think the bandwidth.

51:18

Producing. That when did you find you

51:20

are using. Are.

51:23

Still, don't regard myself as center at

51:25

all. It. Took me a

51:27

long time to think of myself as a guitar player. Never.

51:30

Mind that and then as as a

51:32

song or songwriter. That. To a

51:34

while. I'm. And.

51:37

Singer and just never even counted

51:39

are just some more you say

51:41

that bomb as if you've noticed,

51:43

but you've actually song about twenty

51:45

five albums yeah. I

51:48

know, but. You know how

51:50

it happens. I'm sure you understand. And.

51:53

How it happens and I still don't I'm

51:55

devote we say does he have the as

51:57

is like do with someone else has done.

52:00

it or was it kind of like... You

52:04

were the only man to do it. I

52:08

think I was the only one to do it

52:10

and once I found that people

52:12

didn't walk out, people

52:15

stayed and then you'd play a

52:17

club and then the next

52:19

time you played there'd be a queue down

52:21

the stairs and down the corner that

52:24

you were starting to pull people in and the

52:27

word of mouth to think

52:30

it's a genuine thing. But

52:32

I know your style had a

52:34

sort of speaking quality to it. I

52:37

know that's one of your big heroes

52:39

in the past was blind Willie McTell,

52:42

right? And that was a

52:44

style that he used. I

52:47

think Talking Blues, yeah, I think that's

52:49

possibly part of it. Dylan,

52:52

I suppose. Yeah, I guess so.

52:54

But that was part of the tradition

52:57

in American music anyway. I

53:00

don't know. It's just a rag bag

53:02

of stuff. I

53:04

certainly didn't consider myself much

53:07

of a singer but I think Bob Dylan

53:10

was inspiring in the sense that you

53:12

realize you didn't have to be a

53:15

classical, much

53:18

as I love and adore Frank

53:20

Sinatra and all

53:22

of that stuff. The singer-singers, what

53:24

I call singer-singers, that

53:26

I realized that from folk music there

53:29

was something else happening and that you

53:31

could be rough as

53:33

a singer and still

53:35

tell your story. Your story could still

53:37

come across. And

53:40

as long as you meant what you were

53:42

doing, people could kind of detect. I

53:46

think people can detect something.

53:48

In sincerity. Yeah, I don't

53:51

think they can say, oh, that's insincere, but something in them registers.

54:00

there's a model for what you do which

54:02

is I said the person for

54:04

most similar is actually Hendrix because it's

54:06

that thing of singing telling the story

54:08

but then actually breaking because my guitars

54:10

got a talk you have to yeah

54:12

exactly you know I listen a lot

54:14

Hendrix and I would be playing when I was

54:16

playing with a pic you know and I'd be

54:19

playing like trying to trying to

54:21

play Red House and trying to play you

54:24

know and and trying

54:26

to play hey Joe all those

54:28

things I listened too

54:31

hard and I

54:33

love Jimi Hendrix and so

54:35

it all it all plays its part and I think

54:38

you're right it's

54:40

well observed you know that I think that's

54:42

right because when you're playing you've got to

54:44

break off to play and

54:47

the phrasing of of

54:49

being a of the blues is is

54:51

was like that too because a pal

54:54

of mine had a record called Live

54:56

at the Regal by B.B. King and

54:59

the blues fans will know it and

55:02

and I was struck by that record

55:04

so much because there were three characters

55:06

there was there was B.B.

55:09

his voice there was the audience

55:12

and it was his guitar and there

55:14

was just like three corners you know he'd go

55:18

he'd be telling the story I gave

55:20

you seven children and now you say

55:22

well the audience goes up and then

55:25

he plays and yeah yeah

55:27

and but the whole thing was

55:29

just bouncing from one corner of

55:31

the story to the next corner of the story. This is

55:33

really interesting because I don't you know

55:35

your touring schedules and how many gigs you did

55:38

and these famous long tours I mean it's it's

55:41

above and beyond probably only Guns and

55:43

Roses come close for that kind of

55:45

touring but it's

55:47

because from what you're saying here it's because

55:49

you see the audience as being as important

55:52

that the song doesn't really live until

55:55

it's in front of an audience. It's

55:57

quantum and it's observed. something.

56:00

I think you're conscious of them. If

56:04

you're going to play a song like Brothers in Arms or

56:06

something, when that

56:08

song is setting up, it's a real tangible

56:10

thing in the hall. So

56:15

you can't play it badly. There's

56:17

something about it that you better

56:20

play this for real. And

56:22

then you're kind of conscious. That's why they're

56:24

there. That's why they've come.

56:27

They're inspiring you as well. Yeah, they've come

56:29

to hear you play it well. The

56:34

thing is, the notes you chose that day

56:37

in the studio when you recorded it become

56:39

the Holy Grail, don't they? You

56:41

can't go away from it. Yeah, that's

56:43

well spotted. I

56:46

started playing say

56:49

Brothers, but other songs can be like

56:51

that. In the studio, I

56:54

played it doo-doo-doo-doo, Tweedie

56:56

Dee, right? I

57:00

don't know why I did that, but that became

57:02

the furniture of the thing. And

57:04

I've tried to play differently. That's

57:06

first phrase. And

57:09

I was getting nowhere at all. Nothing

57:11

came close to it. So

57:14

either I'd got lucky on the thing, on

57:17

the thing itself, or I

57:20

can't explain it. But nothing

57:22

else worked. I guess the audience

57:24

weren't prepared to take anything else. They wanted

57:26

that. They wanted that. And once

57:30

I'd gotten the thing moving, once it

57:32

started moving down the track, then I

57:34

could improvise a

57:36

little bit and move away from what

57:39

was on the record. And it would

57:41

become different anywhere. Touring something for that

57:43

long, you would become

57:45

different. Yeah, that's very

57:47

interesting. Why? In

57:52

a way, just kind of telling them that the

57:54

song has started, maybe. Yeah.

57:57

Because I think what's interesting

57:59

about Dye Straight. and the success that you

58:01

had in the 80s, is it

58:03

goes against everything else we think about that period

58:05

in a way. Suddenly

58:08

there are shorter songs and it's all about

58:10

hit singles and pop

58:12

songs and glamour. And here's a

58:15

band that has rudely ignored

58:17

punk and sailed through

58:19

from the early 70s if you like and

58:21

into the 80s and are making songs 14

58:23

minutes long that are giving singles for the

58:26

radio that are six minutes long. Well

58:28

I would have been part of

58:31

the punk thing and the new

58:33

wave thing if I'd been

58:35

10 years younger but I

58:37

was 28 when the thing happened.

58:40

When the thing had been around, kicking

58:43

around the world for a long

58:45

time and so that made me

58:48

very different. But you became

58:50

the place to go didn't you? If I'd been

58:52

18 I wouldn't have survived. But

58:55

how did it feel because when you started

58:57

that whole pub circuit and everything in London

58:59

that's what was going on. You know you

59:02

took like Stuart Copeland for instance

59:04

you talked to him and he was in Curve

59:06

there and he was that bit older but his

59:08

thing was like well punk was the only game

59:10

in town so that's what we did.

59:12

Yeah but I got on great with Stuart. We

59:17

actually did a bunch of gigs

59:19

together for a while. I

59:21

don't know I can't remember why but they

59:23

were all booked at the same time and

59:26

I do remember this that nobody cared

59:28

who played first or last. It

59:32

was never an issue and I

59:34

certainly don't remember being worried about it. I

59:36

think it would be whoever got there first

59:38

would set up and play first but

59:42

we were always like that. I

59:46

think people wanted your music was the

59:48

place to go for things that were.

59:51

You could spend time with the pieces

59:53

that there was depth and there was intricacy

59:55

and there was a cinema

59:57

for the years you know in a lot of different ways.

1:00:00

of the original record. Maybe. I'm

1:00:02

not sure how it

1:00:05

all worked out, but I think I was

1:00:07

very lucky, you know, for we

1:00:10

were, because

1:00:12

our record company made CDs. Philips

1:00:16

made CD players. And

1:00:19

what happened with Brothers is

1:00:21

that it coincided with

1:00:24

the CD, coincided with that

1:00:26

record. And

1:00:29

Phonogram, I think that's what they were

1:00:31

called then, Phonogram or Philips, decided

1:00:33

to use our

1:00:36

record as an illustration

1:00:38

of the

1:00:40

new technology. So

1:00:43

that meant that all these electrical shops

1:00:45

got added to, so they were selling

1:00:48

the record as well because they were

1:00:50

demonstrating the CD player with it. And

1:00:54

you recorded it digitally as well. And

1:00:56

we also got lucky with

1:00:58

American charts because we had, I

1:01:01

think we had so far away, we

1:01:04

had Walk of Life and we had Money

1:01:08

for Nothing. I saw like

1:01:10

three singles that were hits in

1:01:12

America. And

1:01:14

that video was one of the, it was the first

1:01:16

video shown on British MTV, wasn't it? Right, and the

1:01:18

video. So it was just

1:01:21

one of those things that had

1:01:23

been growing through making movies and

1:01:25

stuff. And then it

1:01:27

was like this critical mass thing where people

1:01:29

wanted to see it live

1:01:31

and they wanted to have the records

1:01:33

too. So it was just, I think

1:01:36

it was luck. It

1:01:39

was a convergence of eventualities

1:01:42

like that. The

1:01:45

CD came

1:01:47

out and that didn't hurt. But

1:01:50

I tell you the thing that really didn't hurt

1:01:52

was having hit singles in America. I

1:01:55

think that was probably the biggest thing.

1:01:57

Also you got Sting on the, yeah.

1:02:00

That. Yeah. And always while

1:02:02

it was it was the greatest. Living Rises

1:02:04

as a what yet know what a little

1:02:06

playing know he was reserve which is that

1:02:08

sad because as I see that money for

1:02:10

Nothing is the rocky as most distorted Sativa

1:02:12

ever ever had and it's one of the

1:02:14

focused parts you've ever played that is in

1:02:17

the finger picking. It's almost one man band

1:02:19

of little com system facility here. yeah it

1:02:21

is. I suppose that's sorted. Old Mrs. Pak

1:02:23

that's a part of the key to smoke

1:02:25

on the water. Is. It your any

1:02:27

play to notes and you finger prick. But

1:02:30

also used a guy gets how did the Mick

1:02:32

Ronson? it's of using that the less pool with

1:02:35

the wall while choked by yeah and it was

1:02:37

the air was who was out to those trying

1:02:39

to do one for him. Who. Did

1:02:41

the spoof records. I

1:02:43

was trying to do aversion full. Bar.

1:02:46

Nice to know the American guy and he

1:02:48

does all that sort of weird Al Yankovic

1:02:50

this Weird Al I was trying to do

1:02:52

once a weirdo. And. And

1:02:55

us as is. how does I used

1:02:57

to do that? And then eventually. I

1:03:01

said oh. It. Was the while

1:03:03

pillow stuck in one week stuff and

1:03:05

I was literally turns remember our forgotten.

1:03:08

And. That's why it didn't happen in and once.

1:03:10

I remembered that we had the

1:03:12

war in one place. I'm

1:03:15

a know everybody says yeah Of

1:03:17

course if. I told

1:03:19

you are couldn't remember. Honest seems couldn't

1:03:22

remember. I was it saying goodbye to

1:03:24

those guitars. Oh that was

1:03:26

that was I wasn't too hard on.

1:03:29

was not those guitars and. I

1:03:31

was one of those guitars are centered

1:03:33

a set or to them. or maybe

1:03:35

maybe a few of them. But. I'm

1:03:38

it was actually wasn't as bad as all

1:03:40

that and. I've. Got, I've

1:03:42

got some beautiful guitars and know I've got

1:03:44

that and and under Still don't meet. Fifty

1:03:46

Fifty Eight has fallen or exceed that we

1:03:48

would you record money for nothing on the

1:03:50

Fifty Eight or the eighty. Know there was

1:03:52

the eighty Three was that one, that's the

1:03:54

one are sold as the but. i'm

1:03:57

just went for half a million in the i

1:03:59

don't i don't know I wasn't there,

1:04:01

I didn't want to look. They

1:04:03

all went for about half a million. I didn't want to look.

1:04:07

But it was also charity for charity, right? No,

1:04:10

actually some of it went to charity. The

1:04:16

full charity thing I've just done was the

1:04:18

teenage cancer thing. Oh my God, we haven't

1:04:21

mentioned that. We need to talk about that

1:04:23

before we end. Which

1:04:26

is quite possibly the greatest collection

1:04:28

of guitarists ever seen on a record.

1:04:30

For going home. For going home. How

1:04:34

did it happen? They

1:04:36

weren't all in the same room, right? No. They

1:04:39

all did it from their home studios. Well I tell you...

1:04:42

Pete was first, wasn't he? Pete Townsend was first.

1:04:44

Which is appropriate because

1:04:46

of the input to the charity

1:04:49

itself over the years. Also

1:04:52

I remember years and years ago, I think it was

1:04:54

in Kew or something, you did one of your favourite

1:04:56

guitar record things ever and you said how you

1:04:59

thought Won't Get Fooled Again

1:05:01

was the greatest expression of

1:05:03

joyous guitar playing. Yeah. Which

1:05:05

I absolutely agree with. I love Pete

1:05:08

playing and I've always been a huge

1:05:10

who fan. Whenever

1:05:14

I see, you know, Glyn Johns, I'm

1:05:16

always busy reminding him.

1:05:19

I'm hunting amongst the speakers

1:05:22

with his microphone to get

1:05:25

the sound. Glyn's

1:05:28

wonderful. How

1:05:31

did that come together? Did you make all the phone

1:05:33

calls yourself? No, no, no. I mean

1:05:35

it was, in fact Guy Fletcher did much more than

1:05:37

I did in the end because he had

1:05:41

to, you know, Guy's a

1:05:43

trained recording engineer and has

1:05:46

spent his time, you know, sleeping

1:05:48

under a warm console if he

1:05:50

had to spend the night in the studio.

1:05:54

Old school. Old school, yeah. So Guy

1:05:56

knows it all the way. Jeff Zawat, Jeff Zawat. Yeah,

1:05:58

it's very much. moving piece of

1:06:00

playing by Jeff. That's his last piece

1:06:03

of recording. Yeah, I think it may

1:06:05

very well be. Yeah. And

1:06:07

Jeff stole from you in the end and

1:06:09

he did he never used to be a

1:06:11

finger player did he? No, of course he

1:06:13

didn't. No, you didn't need to do

1:06:15

that. He was on

1:06:18

another level altogether and a wonderful,

1:06:21

wonderful player and also

1:06:24

this just

1:06:26

other other worldly guitar player.

1:06:29

But it happened very quickly because Pete

1:06:31

came in and nobody

1:06:33

plays chords like Pete and he came

1:06:37

into the studio and he was first

1:06:39

in and of course that gave us

1:06:41

a whole dimension. Think about straight away

1:06:43

and then Eric,

1:06:45

well I think was very

1:06:47

soon after and then David

1:06:50

Gilmour and then shortly

1:06:52

after that. I

1:06:55

mean I can't be actually

1:06:57

Hank sent his contribution

1:06:59

probably from Australia, right?

1:07:03

From Perth, yeah. And yeah and

1:07:05

tremendous only because he played the

1:07:07

song for so many years of

1:07:09

course but he was

1:07:11

a guitar player. The thing

1:07:13

I wanted to explain about Hank's playing was

1:07:18

that you

1:07:20

use the tremolo arm with your right hand. You

1:07:24

play the note with a pick and you

1:07:26

use the tremolo arm to occasionally just to

1:07:29

let the note sing out but

1:07:31

that means that you don't then mess it

1:07:33

about with left hand

1:07:36

vibrato. You've got to keep that. I

1:07:38

think Hank can play anyway he wants. I think he

1:07:41

can do that or he

1:07:43

can play with his fingers or I think

1:07:45

he can do it all.

1:07:48

But to get that style, a

1:07:50

wonderful land thing

1:07:52

that captivated me when I was

1:07:55

a kid, that's the

1:07:57

way you play. It was like a Dwayne Eddie style

1:07:59

of playing. And

1:08:02

you've got to be in love with actually Dwayne

1:08:04

Eddie's on it. I remember

1:08:08

when I heard because they're young for the first

1:08:10

time, I learned there was a

1:08:12

little kid up our street that had it and

1:08:14

I went round 3000 and

1:08:16

made him play it 10 times. You

1:08:20

just got to be such a little,

1:08:22

I mean, who's the little maniac down

1:08:25

the streets made me play this record.

1:08:27

10 times. That was me. Sorry,

1:08:29

Michael. Brian, there's a similar thing.

1:08:32

Didn't he? Someone he heard at the house, I had

1:08:34

an Elvis record and he made this woman, Richard,

1:08:37

and he made her play it again. Oh yeah. And he ended

1:08:40

up sort of dancing with her. She was up in

1:08:42

the window and he was out in the street. Well

1:08:44

this is clearly a Newcastle thing. I think this is

1:08:46

what we had that, you know, is

1:08:50

missing now for younger people. And that

1:08:52

we had to mine. This was for

1:08:55

all of the nuggets that you could find.

1:08:57

Absolutely. It wasn't on streaming. And blues. Yeah,

1:08:59

the blues, when that came along, we had

1:09:01

to go hunting for it exactly. It was

1:09:04

like the gold rush. Yeah. There's a thing

1:09:06

you'd hear about a record and it would

1:09:08

be months before you got to

1:09:10

hear it. That's right. And

1:09:12

you'd be anticipating hearing this record. And I

1:09:15

think that's what a lot of kids now

1:09:17

like about vinyl because when

1:09:19

they've got the record in their hand,

1:09:21

they can read the line of notes

1:09:23

and everything. And there's something about holding

1:09:25

the cover at the Scott something, hasn't

1:09:27

it? Well, it's also a thing of, I don't want

1:09:29

to get into this sort of thing. But

1:09:32

the fact that Lionel notes don't exist

1:09:34

at all in streaming. And I don't

1:09:36

know why they thought actually, in fairness,

1:09:38

I noticed that Apple have started to do it now. If

1:09:40

you click on the three little dots by the side of

1:09:42

the track. Okay, good. Are you taking this

1:09:46

new album out on the road? No. Well,

1:09:50

because I've never, I want

1:09:52

to spend more time at home. And

1:09:55

it's Just instead of being cruel

1:09:57

to the people around, I want to... It's

1:09:59

probably... That's me with the probably

1:10:01

the probably you were wondering. you know. And.

1:10:04

Know about? I think of the proverbial than the

1:10:06

same Get out, get out there. You know that

1:10:08

have enough of yang and around but. I'm.

1:10:12

But. A want to be able

1:10:14

to to his read it so that I

1:10:16

can write. And so that I

1:10:18

can write some because the of lot of these

1:10:20

songs have been written. Partly

1:10:22

what I'm on the road and it's to

1:10:25

in the morning when you know. Second,

1:10:27

Class online. That. Last one.

1:10:30

And. I've got a gig to you know, come

1:10:32

up maybe gotta get coming up next day.

1:10:35

And. You be familiar familiar

1:10:37

with it so just but just.

1:10:40

It's not the ideal way to. To.

1:10:43

Live not the ideal way to

1:10:45

write you know music. In her

1:10:48

of income music. Songs.

1:10:51

And. I.

1:10:53

Just liked to be able to write

1:10:55

the songs and home more see how

1:10:57

they come out and to clinking music.

1:11:00

Go into music Yeah to into my

1:11:02

studios to get Jose F Yeah nothing

1:11:04

we we'd all like to go to

1:11:06

your studio system. he adds a lonely

1:11:08

do and I are You is such

1:11:10

a great studio to work in. And

1:11:13

them A because it was built with the

1:11:15

whole idea you know that it would have

1:11:17

it would. Be. A at at

1:11:20

be able to do the things that I haven't

1:11:22

been able to do. Another studios and you know

1:11:24

you'd go into and others in a studio so

1:11:26

many can't do this because he can't What is

1:11:28

his be a guy that's a big enough it

1:11:30

was a cause it's so well thought out. I'm

1:11:32

about as days of what their law and I

1:11:34

was erotic of i'm gonna film in front of

1:11:37

my Cv block and his is great film producer

1:11:39

an engineer and he said this is the best

1:11:41

using them as yeah thing and is wet nurse

1:11:43

of issue of because of this and he just

1:11:45

press this button on the desk and as a

1:11:47

button the clothes is the big. heavy door between

1:11:50

the studio in the control room for to

1:11:52

the don't laugh is the guy suckers musicians

1:11:54

half your time is wasted getting a type

1:11:56

up to go and close the door because

1:11:58

musicians have left it open Literally that

1:12:00

button is what makes it the best. That's the only

1:12:02

button in the studio I know how to work. I

1:12:05

think. Mark, thanks for coming in.

1:12:07

Yeah. And good luck with the new album. Thank you

1:12:09

so much. This has been George. Absolutely. Good light, Mark.

1:12:11

It has been very interesting. So

1:12:31

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