0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

the Savage Lovecast at savage.love. If

0:05

you're stuck in a relationship

0:07

quandary or if you're looking

0:10

for sexual harmony, well

0:14

there's nothing you can't cast

0:19

on the Savage

0:21

Lovecast. A little good

0:24

news courtesy of the Chosen Family

0:26

Law Center. Legislation has been introduced

0:28

in Berkeley, California, and Oakland, California,

0:31

that would ban discrimination based on

0:33

family and relationship structure. This

0:35

comes after Somerville, Massachusetts last year

0:38

amended its anti-discrimination laws to include

0:40

family or relationship structure as a

0:42

protected class. Meaning

0:44

landlords, employers, public servants, the

0:46

police can't discriminate against

0:48

people based on their being in an

0:51

open relationship or in thruples or quads

0:53

just like they can't discriminate against people

0:55

based on their race or

0:58

their religion or their sexual orientation or their

1:00

gender. And the year before in 2022, a

1:02

court in New York ruled that

1:04

thruples, at least when it comes to

1:06

housing law and renewing leases, have the

1:08

same legal rights couples do.

1:11

Steps in the right direction. And reading about

1:14

these cases, the law in Somerville, the ruling

1:16

in New York, the proposed new legislation in

1:18

Berkeley and Oakland, given me a

1:20

little deja vu, it's taken me back

1:23

to the first domestic partnership registries for

1:25

same-sex couples that passed in the early

1:27

1980s. And then the enactment of

1:30

civil unions a decade later,

1:32

same-sex couples, we couldn't get married.

1:34

There wasn't support for gay marriage

1:36

then, but there was a recognition

1:38

that gay relationships existed. And

1:41

our relationships were kind of sorta

1:43

like family relationships. And we needed

1:46

some form of recognition under the

1:48

law to protect people who

1:50

were in these already existing, whether

1:52

you liked it or not, gay

1:54

relationships. They were,

1:56

when they passed these domestic partner registries

1:58

and civil unions, They were definitely half

2:01

a loaf, but we

2:04

were starved for carbs

2:06

for any recognition of our relationships at

2:09

all. And we took the win, we took that half a

2:11

loaf and we kept fighting

2:13

until we got the whole fucking loaf.

2:16

Now with more and more people forming

2:18

non-traditional families, a majority of Americans do

2:20

not live in nuclear families

2:22

anymore as the chosen family law

2:24

center points out. And as

2:26

our guest on today's show argues in his new

2:28

book, which we will talk about later, the

2:31

failure to recognize these relationships, the relationships

2:33

that people are in, the

2:35

failure to recognize their existence and for the

2:37

people in them, their importance leaves

2:40

people vulnerable, the people in these

2:42

relationships in the same way that denying any legal

2:44

recognition to same sex couples once

2:47

left us vulnerable. Homophobic

2:49

family members to landlords who wanted

2:51

to evict us and that 2022

2:53

case in New York, like

2:55

so much early law

2:58

recognizing the existence of same sex

3:00

couples was about a lease, about

3:02

an apartment. Three men in a

3:04

throuple, one died, the man whose name was on

3:06

the lease and the landlord moved

3:08

to evict his survivors because they

3:10

weren't quote unquote family

3:13

members. Judge Karen

3:15

May Bakdian said, nope, these

3:17

men are family, a throuple

3:20

is a family, at least in New

3:22

York. The bill is introduced in Berkeley

3:24

and Oakland. Protecting

3:26

poly families, platonic co-parents

3:28

living together, cohabitating asexual

3:30

folks, single people who

3:33

decide to share an apartment or

3:35

a house, multi-generational households, protects all

3:37

of those different kinds of families

3:39

from discrimination in housing

3:41

and other areas. But most importantly in

3:44

housing, and this is a real

3:46

issue, there are places still, cities

3:48

and entire states where two or

3:50

more unrelated adults are

3:52

not legally allowed to live

3:54

together. Maine, New Hampshire,

3:57

Nebraska, Georgia, Virginia, Michael

3:59

Waters wrote a... piece about it in the Atlantic

4:01

last May. He's at the

4:03

headline, where living with friends is still

4:05

technically illegal. And

4:07

he opens with a case in Connecticut where a

4:10

woman and her husband and their kids moved into

4:12

a big mansion in Hartford with

4:14

six of her friends, plus a couple

4:16

of their other children, quoting

4:18

from Michael Waters' lead here in the Atlantic, a

4:21

few months after moving in, Rosenblatt found

4:23

a cease and desist letter in the

4:25

mail from the city demanding

4:27

that the 11 of them vacate

4:30

their house, a house they own. The

4:32

charge was an obscure zoning violation. Rosenblatt's

4:35

group had broken the definition of family

4:38

under the law in Hartford. More than

4:40

two unrelated people, according to the law,

4:42

buried deep in the city code, could

4:44

not live together under the same roof.

4:47

Neighbors, Rosenblatt learned later, had

4:49

filed a complaint. In

4:52

Washington State, where I live, it was

4:54

illegal for unrelated adults to live together

4:56

until 2021, which means for a while

4:59

there, me

5:02

and Terry and his boyfriend, my boyfriend,

5:04

we were breaking the law. Our

5:07

neighbors must like us, I guess, because no one filed

5:09

a complaint and the sheriff never showed up at our

5:11

house to haul our boyfriends

5:13

out in cuts. So

5:15

we're grateful to that. If any of my neighbors

5:17

listened to the love cast, thank you very much

5:19

for not calling the police. I

5:21

am pro-Berkeley and Oakland moving on this

5:24

legislation, setting an example, hopefully kicking

5:26

off a trend that will pick up momentum,

5:29

and eventually laws will change in

5:31

cities and states where thrupples are,

5:34

right now, breaking the law. And friends who move

5:36

in together, Kate and Allie style, to raise their

5:38

kids are breaking the law and could

5:40

lose their homes. I want the world to be safe

5:43

for thrupples and Kate and Allie blended families.

5:45

I want the world to be safe for

5:47

adult working women who decide to do the

5:49

Golden Girls thing and live with their besties

5:52

and maybe keep a subby houseboy or two

5:54

around and do the chores and yard work, can

5:56

legally do that in all 50 states. But

5:59

you know what else I want? I want

6:01

people who live

6:03

together in traditional families or alternative

6:06

families. I want them to

6:08

be able to find places to live.

6:11

The SF Chronicle reports a

6:13

two bedroom, 2.5 bathroom home

6:15

in North Berkeley, California went

6:18

on sale in June for $1,080,000. Two

6:23

weeks and 17 offers later it sold for

6:25

$425,000 over its more than $1 million asking price.

6:34

84% of houses go for tens or hundreds of

6:36

thousands of dollars over their asking price in Berkeley.

6:38

According to the SF Chronicle still 70% do in

6:40

Oakland. So

6:44

yeah, it's great that if you live in

6:46

Berkeley, you can't be discriminated against based on

6:48

your family structure. But if you can't find

6:50

a house in Berkeley, that law protecting you

6:52

from discrimination isn't actually going

6:55

to do you any good. In

6:57

theory your poly quad could if this

6:59

legislation passes live without fear of discrimination

7:02

in Berkeley. But in

7:05

reality, your poly quad probably isn't going to

7:07

be able to find housing in Berkeley that

7:09

you can afford or in

7:11

Oakland or in SF or in Portland

7:13

or in Seattle or if you already

7:15

have a place in one of those

7:18

cities, rising rents and rising property values

7:20

and rising property taxes which are rising

7:22

because we aren't building enough housing in

7:24

places where people want to live could

7:27

force you out. Look,

7:30

we want our blue cities in our blue

7:32

states to be able to take in, to

7:34

offer refuge to trans people fleeing anti-trans laws

7:37

in red states to women who want to

7:39

live in cities and states where they can

7:42

get abortions when they need them

7:44

without having to go beg a

7:46

judge or risk arrest crossing state

7:48

lines. I have a letter that

7:50

I got this week from a parent of a 12 year

7:52

old who came out and this parent

7:54

wants to do the right thing by their kid

7:57

and move from the red state where they live right

7:59

now to a big city

8:01

in a blue state where their queer

8:03

kid will be safer and they can't

8:05

because they can't find an apartment in

8:07

a blue city in a blue state

8:10

that they can afford. We

8:12

can't brag that a place like Seattle

8:14

or Berkeley is a better place for

8:16

queer people or Seattle and Berkeley are

8:18

better places for poly people or different

8:21

kinds of family structures that queer people and

8:23

poly people and alternative

8:25

families and traditional families can't

8:27

move to these cities because

8:30

there isn't enough housing. So

8:33

yeah pass these laws. Laws protecting

8:36

choice, laws protecting access to

8:38

trans health care, laws welcoming

8:40

immigrants, laws protecting different kinds

8:42

of family structures. But

8:45

if we don't build housing more of it and

8:47

a lot more of it, if we

8:49

don't rezone huge swathes of these big

8:51

blue cities that we live in to

8:53

allow more apartment buildings and townhouses, passing

8:57

these laws, these

8:59

anti-discrimination laws protecting

9:01

polyamorous quads, I'm sorry it's

9:04

just performative garbage.

9:07

You can't put a sign up in front of your

9:09

house that says in this city we believe that you

9:12

are welcome here, that your family should

9:14

be safe here while

9:17

refusing to tear down walls that keep

9:19

people from moving to

9:21

your city and your neighborhood. In

9:24

other news the OG buttfuckers of the

9:26

Greeks have legalized same-sex marriage this week,

9:29

legalized same-sex marriage. Greece, the

9:31

first country with a majority Orthodox

9:33

populace to do so. Fun

9:35

fact, anal intercourse used to be known

9:37

as Greek. If you were into buttfucking

9:40

you would say I am into Greek

9:42

before people started to identify as tops

9:44

or bottoms. They identified as Greek

9:46

active, that would be the top or Greek

9:48

passive, that would be the bottom. Anyway,

9:51

nice to see gay

9:53

marriage, same-sex marriage come

9:55

to Greece or come

9:57

home to Greece thinking of you.

10:00

today, Alexander and Pithyston.

10:02

Alright, coming up on the show on

10:04

the micro tons of your cues, lots

10:06

of my A's and joining me on

10:08

the magnum, Peter McGraw, professor in the

10:11

Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at University

10:13

of Colorado Boulder, here to

10:15

talk about his new book, Solo, Building a

10:17

Remarkable Life on Your Own.

10:19

Peter and I talk about the

10:21

loneliness epidemic, the impact financial independence

10:24

for women has had on straight

10:26

relationships, and how different relationship styles

10:28

and structures can benefit people once

10:30

they freed themselves from the

10:32

expectation that monogamous, sexually

10:35

exclusive, long-term relationships are their

10:37

only option. All that coming

10:39

up on today's Lovecast.

10:42

This episode of The Savage Lovecast is brought to

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you by Dipsy. Dipsy is

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11:31

Hey Dan, I've run into a few men

11:33

over the years who have had a foot

11:35

fetish and I've never heard of a woman

11:37

having one. It's just a weird hunch but

11:39

is this one of those things that's

11:41

really gendered? Is it like an AMAP thing? I

11:44

don't know, like I've met women who have

11:46

had like a thing for hands, which I

11:48

mean, like I understand where that's coming from

11:50

but yeah I don't know it's just something

11:52

I've always been kind of curious about and

11:54

like I understand that other fetishes have like

11:57

certain things or tend to be favored by.

12:00

one gender or any other,

12:02

but yeah, I know, it's just something I've always

12:04

been kind of curious about. Like, is this solely

12:07

like a guy thing? I don't know, I'd like to hear

12:09

your thoughts. This

12:12

is a very complicated question.

12:16

Generally, as a rule, yes, men

12:18

seem to manifest, males assigned male

12:21

at birth, peeps, seem to manifest

12:23

more kinks and sexual

12:26

fetishes. You're not gonna meet out there in

12:28

the wild, a lot of female

12:31

foot fetishists. There is

12:33

something about male sexuality, there is

12:35

something about the testosterone-soaked dick monsters

12:38

men are that seem

12:40

to lend itself to the kind

12:42

of abstract erotic associations that somehow

12:44

erotic imaginations make and link and

12:47

connect. A thing for

12:49

feet is called a partialism, that's

12:51

a strong sexual attraction

12:53

or arousal by some part of

12:56

somebody else's body that ain't

12:58

their junk, not their genitals.

13:01

Everyone's comfortable with partialism when

13:03

it comes to boobs because almost

13:06

everybody is into all

13:09

male people, into tits to some

13:11

lesser or greater extent. It's normal

13:13

for someone to have that particular

13:15

partialism. But for that same intense

13:17

desire and longing to focus on

13:19

the feet, people are like, oh,

13:21

that's super weird and

13:24

random. Well, there

13:26

is something a little weird and random

13:29

maybe about the sexual meaning, desire

13:31

that gets attached to boobs,

13:34

to that very prominent secondary

13:36

sex characteristic that communicates

13:39

so much and attracts so much

13:41

attention and desire, but

13:43

yeah, women typically don't manifest

13:45

these kinds of kinks, partialisms,

13:48

intense, fetishistic attachments

13:51

to objects or fabrics or things

13:53

that to someone else might seem

13:55

random or non-sexual. One of

13:58

the interesting things we've learned about sex and gender because

14:01

of more people coming

14:03

out as trans and more assigned

14:05

female at birth persons coming

14:08

out as trans men and transitioning. Would you

14:10

listen to these stories of people

14:13

who lived a significant chunk of

14:15

their life as female and

14:18

then transitioned to male began to

14:20

take testosterone their relationship to sex

14:22

and desire was radically altered by

14:25

testosterone. People who thought they

14:27

were horny pre

14:29

testosterone were horny in ways they

14:31

had never anticipated a person could

14:34

possibly be horny after they started

14:36

taking testosterone. What I think is

14:39

really interesting about the whole kinks

14:41

fetishes thing and it's I have a ton

14:44

of anic data and no actual data to

14:46

back this up is

14:49

most studies of paraphilias non normative

14:51

sexual desires or people sexual interests

14:53

involve college students. Men

14:56

another thing that I think is unique

14:58

to male sexuality to all that testosterone

15:00

splashing around in our systems men males

15:03

tend to have a very keen understanding of

15:06

what it is that turns them on what

15:08

their fetishes and kinks are by the time

15:10

they're teenagers. Women often

15:12

don't grow into their

15:14

kinks or fetishes or their paraphilias

15:17

or non normative desires until middle-aged

15:20

why is that till late 20s

15:22

30s look at the Fifty Shades

15:24

of Grey phenomena all

15:26

of the people reading those novels

15:28

and furiously masturbating to them were

15:31

not 15 year old girls they were

15:33

35 45 year old 55 year old adult women

15:38

who were growing into this kink all of a

15:40

sudden. Why is that? Is it because

15:42

the way women are socialized is

15:44

so different from the way men are socialized and men

15:46

are socialized to feel entitled to their kinks

15:48

desires even though there's a lot of kink

15:51

shaming that goes on I know people I

15:53

know men who have foot fetishes who struggled

15:55

with the shame of it for so long

15:57

they didn't exactly feel entitled to their

15:59

kinks. kinks in the way that we

16:02

make people sound or make men sound when we talk about

16:04

this? God, it's just another

16:06

sign that men and women are fundamentally sexually

16:08

incompatible because you've got people,

16:11

for the most part, picking partners from

16:13

the same age cohort. And

16:16

so you have women in their teens,

16:18

20s selecting guys,

16:21

looking for guys who don't have kinks, who

16:23

are normal like they are because they're normal

16:25

and they don't have kinks. And

16:28

then women partner with these vanilla guys and

16:30

then suddenly those women, when they're in their

16:32

20s or 30s, their kinks start to surface

16:35

rather than being able to call in chits

16:37

from the guy whose kinks they've

16:40

been indulging for 10, 15 years

16:42

when their kinks began to manifest

16:44

themselves are suddenly having to negotiate

16:46

how to incorporate their kinks into what had been

16:48

a very vanilla

16:50

relationship up to that point. The vanilla relationship

16:53

that that woman, when she was 22, thought

16:56

she wanted all her life and

16:58

then at 42 realized, yeah,

17:00

no, she wanted more than

17:03

she realized. It's a

17:05

fascinating area, fascinating area

17:07

of study. There's also something about women's kinks

17:10

that seem to be more about narrative and

17:12

story and less about specific

17:14

objects like feet or

17:16

latex or a fabric. And

17:21

it's just fascinating. And we may never know

17:23

the answer, but

17:26

when we look at the different ways

17:29

kinks, fetishes, paraphilias, partialisms

17:31

play out, manifest in males and females,

17:34

I think it's a sign.

17:36

It's another sign that there are

17:38

some fundamental hardwired

17:41

differences between males and

17:43

females. And there's

17:45

another wrong with that. Hi, Dan,

17:47

Nancy. I'm the tech savvy

17:49

at risk youth. I

17:51

am calling because I have

17:55

fetish Sandals that no longer

17:57

fit me and I would like to.

18:00

They're going away. But

18:02

I don't know if I feel

18:04

comfortable posting that time the usual

18:06

platforms: clegg first taste buds next

18:09

door, etc or taking them sit

18:11

at my local thrift store. Any

18:14

suggestions where. I

18:17

bear sexy They say

18:19

I'm foot fetish. On

18:22

the souls of the shoes so

18:24

any suggestions would be welcome. That.

18:26

Askew is expensive. Please

18:29

please don't send those

18:31

hot sounding that is

18:33

sandals. To a landfill

18:35

to leave them on the bus. Don't

18:37

put them in the bottom of a

18:39

box. Going to Good Will where they

18:42

may or may not want up on

18:44

the sales floor. You have to re

18:46

home those shoes. That. Is yours

18:48

expensive? Their lot of people out there who have kings

18:50

who would love to have some fetish gear and can

18:52

afford it. Will. Be gay one's

18:54

for the good guys and so

18:57

Leather and Lay toxin, Bdsm and

18:59

bondage and the by guys through

19:01

the company called Second Skin Second

19:03

Skin.co where people resell it. sort

19:05

of a Craig's list. Resale.

19:08

Shop. Online. Resale shops for gear

19:10

know people investing your they buy gear

19:12

you can't return gear to the shop

19:14

and some him to buy something that.

19:17

Doesn't. Fit. Or. They outgrow it

19:19

and then what do you do with it? You.

19:22

Find a new home. That's what you're

19:24

gonna have to do. Get to find

19:26

a new home. Wear these shoes and

19:28

sense you don't wanna put them on

19:30

next door where your neighbors will see

19:33

that for some reason you have foot

19:35

fetish gear that you are trying to

19:37

unload. I would encourage you to find

19:39

some food fetishists on. The. Internet

19:41

which is not actually that hard to do

19:43

Find some foot fetish. Guys.

19:46

Or find some pro

19:48

damn women who. Work.

19:51

With put fetishes, your foot fetish clients

19:53

and slide into their d ends. With.

19:56

A picture and say hey, I have these I would

19:58

hate you know. Follow. somebody if you get

20:00

a good vibe, if you kind of like them, if you like

20:02

the cut of their jib, slide into

20:04

their DMs and say, hey, I have these shoes, I don't

20:06

want them to go to a landfill,

20:08

I want them to find a good home with

20:11

a responsible kinkster, a hotfoot fetishist, and I

20:13

like your stuff, and I'd like to send

20:15

these to you if you would like to

20:17

have them. Might

20:19

have to make that offer two or three times, but I

20:21

promise you, good fetish

20:23

gear, being expensive as it

20:26

is, someone will take you

20:28

up on that offer. Have

20:30

you ever taken a bike ride and listened to erotica

20:32

at the same time? How about

20:34

on the bus? Cooking dinner? Yipsy

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21:00

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21:03

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21:05

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21:07

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21:09

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21:11

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21:58

Savage. Hey. Dan

22:00

middle aged gay guy here the Midwest

22:02

with I guess a hookup? adequate question.

22:05

So I am that visiting the city

22:07

I used to live in about five

22:09

years ago I have. He moved a

22:11

couple hours away and was talking to

22:14

an old fuck buddy of mine on

22:16

one of the apps at his picture

22:18

their new that really was and I

22:20

went over to bloom him like I

22:23

had used to do before I moved

22:25

away and I walk into his place

22:27

and literally see him and thought it

22:29

was somebody completely. Else would gurus like

22:31

am I in the right place out loud

22:34

I asked room and he's a yeah like

22:36

and I quickly realized oh crap is the

22:38

same guy he's just let himself go completely

22:40

and I'm not here to same anybody he

22:43

is is sexy Bear now is that have

22:45

a sexy like into guys but didn't know

22:47

and didn't tell me So of course I'm

22:49

a nice person and I take care of

22:51

him and then I get out of air.

22:54

Scott like do I like message human tell

22:56

him like dude. Don't. Misrepresent yourself

22:58

online. That's really rude. I me, I

23:00

don't really think I want to blow

23:02

Megan because of that, and I really

23:04

wasn't as attractive young. But regardless, like

23:06

shouldn't he be told to not do

23:08

that? Just wonder your thoughts. I.

23:11

Suppose you should be told not to do that.

23:13

Maybe he's a listener. Maybe you just right now

23:15

told him. Not. To do that.

23:18

One. Way to tone up to do that to

23:20

com and say hey I soon as. I.

23:22

Was startled. The change in your appearance?

23:24

Suck your dick. Anyway, I a team

23:26

player. But. Kind

23:29

of wasn't psyched about bad. Don't want to do

23:31

that again and you shouldn't use such old. Photos.

23:35

On the Op's you're Sexy Bear.

23:37

Now you should read with that.

23:39

there are guys who want to

23:41

suck the grape cubes off Sexy

23:43

Bears. Those. Are the guys you

23:45

want to hang the single out for now? You could

23:47

say all that to him. I.

23:50

Think all that is something that. You. Know who's.

23:52

Gay. Guy into his forties or fifties. Should.

23:55

Know. Can infer.

23:58

If. there's an idiot do know,

24:01

but there's another way to tell

24:03

him that you weren't down. And I think

24:05

you being startled and not sure if it

24:07

was actually him when you arrived, message

24:10

received, message sent. And

24:12

the fact that next time you're home,

24:15

you're not gonna show up and blow him is

24:17

another way to let

24:19

him know that you're just not into

24:22

him or into this. Yeah,

24:24

the misrepresentation was a little galling. One

24:28

of the social norms around anonymous

24:31

sex, fast sex,

24:33

fuck buddy sex, is

24:36

that if you actively misrepresent

24:38

yourself, if you use

24:40

old photos or not your photos, and then

24:42

somebody shows up at your place and you're

24:45

hoping that they are so averse

24:47

to seeming impolite or hurting your feelings that

24:49

they're gonna go through having sex with you

24:51

anyway, even though you misrepresented yourself, that's

24:54

kind of creepy and coercive and

24:57

not okay. And so

24:59

yeah, if you invite people over to your house,

25:01

you send out pictures, they're not feeling it when

25:03

they arrive, they can say no thanks. That can

25:05

be scalding. You

25:08

could have done that. You sucked his dick

25:10

instead because you want to hurt his feelings. And

25:14

so now, now what do you do? I

25:16

don't think in your shoes I would call this guy

25:18

and lay this all out. I think he knows it.

25:21

He's a gay man, he's not an idiot. Well,

25:24

there's some overlap in the idiot and gay male

25:26

communities, but he knows. He knows

25:28

what he's doing, he knows why he did

25:30

it, and he knows it

25:32

is not okay. And you can

25:34

send that message explicitly, just

25:37

send them the link to this podcast, or

25:40

you can send it implicitly by blocking

25:42

him. You don't have to

25:44

use photographs ever again, that's one way to send that message,

25:46

or just the next time he hits you up, say, yeah,

25:49

no, I wasn't 100% comfortable last time. And

25:51

so, no thank you. Oh

25:54

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27:35

Hi, Dan. So I am a 30

27:37

something Year old

27:40

woman straight when it comes to

27:42

sex and dating. I think

27:45

I'm done I just find

27:47

the expenditure of emotional labor and

27:50

frankly sexual labor Just

27:52

in a straight relationship really not to be Worth

27:56

it, you know, I'm tired of being the

27:58

only one who's expected to be GGG I'm

28:00

tired of expending

28:03

so much of my

28:05

emotional energy just to upkeep the

28:07

relationship. And it's just, it's

28:10

not worth it to me. You

28:12

know, I want to be clear, it's not that I'm a

28:15

lesbian or demisexual or asexual

28:17

or anything like that. Like,

28:19

I still find

28:22

men sexually attractive, but

28:24

I just think to myself, what's the

28:27

point? Because at best hooking up

28:29

with them will probably be disappointing. And

28:32

at worst, they could be

28:34

raped and killed. So, you know,

28:36

the odds just don't seem stacked in

28:38

my favor of a favorable outcome. So

28:41

I'm just opting out. And while

28:43

I do miss sex and intimacy

28:46

sometimes, overall, there's

28:48

not one part of my life that hasn't gotten

28:50

better since I chose to take myself out of

28:53

the dating pool. I have

28:55

time to travel and I have more friends

28:57

than I ever have. And I'm engaged in

29:00

my hobbies and volunteer and

29:03

I'm even making more money than I ever

29:05

have. And so, you know,

29:07

I don't see a reason to stop

29:11

doing what I'm doing. So I guess

29:14

my question is, do you have an expert

29:16

that has studied this? Because clearly I'm

29:18

not the only one. It

29:20

seems to be a thing that women are doing

29:22

en masse that they're just

29:25

done with dating and finding

29:27

themselves happier and healthier. We

29:30

found an expert. We found someone

29:32

who has studied this. Peter McGraw,

29:34

behavioral scientist, professor and author, his

29:36

new book, Solo, Building a Remarkable

29:39

Life of Your Own, is a

29:41

blueprint for cultivating fulfilling relationships and

29:43

creating a rich life outside traditional

29:45

partnered structures. And he is here

29:47

with us. Peter, thank you for coming on the

29:49

show and congratulations on the book. Thank

29:51

you, Dan. It's my pleasure. So before

29:54

I get to the caller, you never

29:56

married, never will, but you threw yourself

29:58

a bachelor party. Yeah,

30:00

seats thirty four. It was

30:02

already sort of settling in

30:04

that I probably wouldn't get

30:06

married. The summer was

30:08

based on my it's previous experience in

30:11

some as it was my lack of

30:13

desire to have children and so I

30:15

thought why is it that only married

30:17

people get to celebrate their single hurt?

30:20

Who makes the rules And so I

30:22

invited a bunch friends to my new

30:24

home at the foothills of the Rocky

30:26

Mountains and we spend a weekend doing

30:29

bachelor party things. Reading. About

30:31

Your Bed Bachelor party Kind of

30:33

reminded me of when Terry and

30:35

I I'm very much the partnered

30:37

tights. We. Had a tenth anniversary

30:39

party celebrating the tenth anniversary of when

30:42

we met his mom and invited our

30:44

friends and family when nobody knew was

30:46

that we had snuck off the British

30:48

Columbia. And. Got married and our

30:50

tenth anniversary party was actually or wedding reception

30:52

but we were the only ones who knew

30:54

and there is something. Kind. Of

30:57

fun about doing it differently. you're doing

30:59

your own way even though what you're

31:01

doing differently was single had differently single

31:03

had with ceremony and celebrations abuse a

31:05

single person's and what we were doing

31:07

differently was that we wanted to get

31:09

married have wedding reception but we didn't

31:11

want anybody to know or it's a

31:13

let's let's talk about this color sir.

31:15

Did. This come up in your research.

31:18

What? We're hearing from a lot right

31:20

now are women who are choosing to

31:22

remain single and that there is now.

31:25

Because. Of this growing political divide between men

31:27

and women have a greater incentive for many

31:29

women to just. Say. Fuck it may

31:31

be a pocket do it ever was while, but I'm not going

31:33

to marry a dude. Is.

31:35

This turning up in the data. It

31:38

is. Yes, Well, so it's as

31:40

turning up in the data even

31:42

more generally than this particular case.

31:44

As so, in the United States,

31:46

half as adults are single. That's

31:48

a hundred and twenty seven million

31:50

people. And this is even more

31:52

surprising. Half of them are not

31:54

interested in dating or a relationship

31:56

at the moment. and

31:58

then we're we're talking about

32:00

here is another subset who

32:03

are deciding for a particular reason

32:05

that they're not interested. I think

32:08

that those are unfortunate reasons, like the

32:10

fact that you can't find a suitable

32:12

partner. You know, listening to this question,

32:14

I have to say, I sympathize,

32:16

you know, I could feel

32:19

the frustration and the sadness

32:23

and even a touch of anger in this

32:26

dynamic. But the

32:28

overarching reason that people are able to be

32:31

single, I think is actually, and especially women, is

32:33

actually positive, which

32:35

is that we now live in a society

32:37

that no longer treats women as possessions, to

32:40

be transferred from a father's house to a

32:42

husband's house. And the rise

32:45

of women economically and

32:48

educationally allows them to

32:50

make this choice. And

32:52

so now it is a choice, where

32:54

it was a time where this listener

32:57

in 1960, she's still getting married, because

32:59

90% of people got

33:01

married. And if you were a woman and you wanted

33:03

to leave your father's home, you did

33:05

this by age 21. And you

33:08

wanted to exist socially, financially, professionally.

33:10

Wanted to have kids. In the 1960s,

33:12

still had to often get a husband's

33:14

permission to go get a job, to

33:17

apply for a job. There

33:19

were so many women, these halcyon

33:21

days that conservatives pine for, there

33:24

were so many women marrying under a

33:26

kind of duress that a lot

33:28

of men who felt entitled to a wife or

33:30

a woman or women didn't

33:33

perceive. And the disappearance

33:35

of that duress, because a woman exists

33:37

now, socially, is

33:40

a legally autonomous individual. She can get her own

33:42

fucking credit card, she can buy her own house,

33:44

she can get a mortgage. The

33:47

way society was structured to

33:49

basically make women children

33:51

all their lives, who need the father

33:53

or the husband to function, that's gone.

33:55

And what you find now are women

33:58

realizing they don't have to to settle and

34:01

that no man or single

34:03

hood or being solo is

34:05

better than somebody shitty

34:07

who didn't get the memo that as a man

34:09

you don't have that latitude to be as shitty

34:12

as men were 100 years ago and

34:15

still expect to have

34:17

a partner. Yes, and if anything the

34:19

childhood problem is now the opposite. So

34:22

this is something I talk to a lot of

34:25

single men about which is, and

34:28

this is one of the tenets of solohood is

34:30

you need to be able to parent yourself. That

34:33

is you need to be

34:35

able to have friends and a social calendar

34:37

and to be able to soothe yourself and

34:39

feed yourself and close yourself. And

34:42

it'd be nice to do it in a way

34:44

that's also appealing to these women so

34:46

that you are

34:48

seen as an equal, that you are

34:51

appealing. And

34:53

hence if you want

34:55

to be marriable, if you want to

34:58

have a long-term relationship or even if you just want someone

35:00

to be willing to have sex with you. And

35:02

so I think that's one

35:04

of the major issues is that too many

35:07

men give up within

35:10

a relationship, their autonomy,

35:12

their ability to take care of things

35:15

because their partners are so good at

35:17

it. So what is

35:19

the data show? Are people who

35:21

are not partnered, who are

35:23

solo, happier? Because the message we get

35:25

from the culture, pop culture movies, television,

35:28

film, our families,

35:30

that everybody needs to pair off and

35:32

that you find your ultimate sense of

35:35

fulfillment as a human being and an

35:37

adult in a long-term committed

35:40

relationship. Monogamous too. A monogamous relationship. If

35:42

you say preferably if you're talking to

35:44

my mother, a monogamous relationship in a

35:47

marital relationship. She

35:49

got the marital from me but not the

35:51

monogamous from me. But does the data back

35:53

that up? Is that where human beings feel

35:55

most fulfilled in those kinds of relationships? I

35:58

actually appreciate you asking this question because

36:00

I think the average person assumes that

36:03

marriage equals bliss, because it's a

36:06

cultural message. And we're at

36:08

a very interesting crossroads because there

36:11

are a lot of people shouting

36:14

to get married and live a fulfilling

36:16

life. And they actually point

36:18

to data that show that

36:20

married people are slightly

36:22

happier than single people,

36:24

who are happier than divorced people. And

36:29

they're like, look, look, the data show

36:31

it. The problem is you can't run

36:33

an experiment that actually

36:35

shows this effect. Moreover,

36:38

to show the effect, you have to pull the

36:40

divorced people out of the sample, which kind of

36:42

feels like cheating to me, in a

36:44

sense, given that one out of three people divorce. But

36:48

what's fascinating about these data and

36:51

busts the myth that marriage makes people

36:53

happy is that when you

36:55

look at the data longitudinally, so

36:58

you look at people before they get married

37:00

and after they get married, married

37:02

people who stay married have

37:04

that slight happiness advantage before they

37:07

even marry. And

37:09

so there's no causal effect. There's a slight,

37:11

there's a honeymoon effect about a year before

37:13

and a year after the wedding, but

37:17

you go back to your previous levels of

37:19

happiness. And moreover, and this

37:21

I think is rather important, is

37:23

that the

37:25

difference between married and single

37:27

people is so small

37:30

that you can detect it statistically,

37:33

but it tells you almost nothing

37:35

about how happy someone is. So whether knowing someone's

37:37

happy or not tells you almost nothing

37:40

about them. There's

37:42

more of my conversation with Peter McGraw on

37:44

the Magnum version of the Savage Love cast

37:46

that you can subscribe to and listen now

37:49

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you can get one today. Hey

39:13

Dan, 30-something cis man in

39:15

the Northeast, and my

39:17

wife only wants to have sex

39:19

in the shower. You know,

39:21

we've had mismatched libidos for a while now, especially

39:24

after our son was born. Honestly,

39:26

we started showering together while

39:29

he was napping or sleeping just so we could

39:31

be efficient with our time. At

39:33

first, it was great. We went from having

39:35

maintenance sex once every couple of weeks to

39:38

multiple times a week when we

39:40

showered together. But over the

39:42

last year and change, it's just become very

39:44

formulaic. We chat about our

39:46

days, what we clean ourselves. When

39:49

we're done, she asks if I wanna have sex.

39:51

We have some nice foreplay, and then we do

39:53

standing doggy until I come. And

39:56

then when she's in the mood, we will go

39:58

back to our bed and, you know. touch her

40:00

while she uses a vibrator to get off. And

40:02

that's how it goes every time. Besides

40:06

saving time and water, when we've

40:08

talked about it, my wife told me she likes it because

40:11

she's self-conscious of her body and

40:13

easily cold, her words, neither

40:15

of which are problems when you're already naked and

40:18

taking a hot shower. When

40:20

she occasionally agrees to sex outside

40:22

the shower, she seems clearly disinterested,

40:24

and she gets dressed immediately after

40:26

we're done. At this point,

40:29

I've stopped trying to initiate out of the shower.

40:32

This week, I just found myself thinking about our

40:34

time in the shower, and it felt

40:37

like an obligation. I wasn't really looking forward to

40:39

it like I have in the past. I guess

40:41

my question is, should I trade exciting

40:44

sex for reliable sex?

40:48

I'd like things to change, but given

40:50

our issues with mismatched libidos

40:52

in the past, I

40:54

don't want to risk saying something and

40:56

then make my wife feel badly and disrupt

40:58

our arrangement and just throw

41:01

things off. Speaking

41:03

as a member of the self-conscious

41:05

about your body community, the

41:08

last place I want to have sex ever

41:10

is in the shower. When you're

41:13

showering, the lights are

41:15

on. When you're showering, you're completely

41:17

bare-ass naked in front of another

41:19

human being who is also completely

41:21

bare-ass naked in front of you.

41:24

Listening to your call, I couldn't help

41:27

but wonder if what's working about shower

41:29

sex for your wife isn't

41:31

so much the shower part. As

41:33

a self-conscious about your body

41:36

person, myself, the shower

41:38

part would actually be unappealing.

41:41

It would work against sex

41:43

at that moment. So I'm thinking

41:45

what may be working for your wife about that moment

41:47

is everything else

41:49

that you described in the run-up to the sex, which was

41:51

you and your wife being able

41:53

to shut the door and be alone away

41:56

from your kids together. You Say

41:58

that you talk about your day. Like

42:00

what's happening is you are. Creating.

42:02

A little space and little time for

42:04

some intimacy and then we grows out

42:07

of that. Intimacy is a desire for

42:09

some sexual contact, her desire to meet

42:11

sexual needs. Maintenance sex is not always

42:13

a terrible thing, specially when your parents

42:16

for young children, you are going to

42:18

have a lot of maintenance acts and

42:20

so it seems to me that it

42:22

was. If that's what's making sex at

42:25

that moment work for your wife, despite

42:27

the lights being on and the barest

42:29

naked and attack would steal your conscious

42:31

about. Her body it I'm in her life which is your

42:33

your grudges about about it. You. Can

42:36

recreate those other elements at a

42:38

different time and in a different

42:40

place and hopefully make your wife

42:42

feel as excited and arouse to

42:44

have sex. In. The bedroom

42:46

with the door shot after some time

42:48

for you to to connect. Bring

42:51

that intimacy and that connections to

42:53

other spaces create other opportunities for

42:56

you can have to risk. Being.

42:59

A little disruptive, I think it's

43:01

important. For. People

43:03

were married for people, particularly

43:06

in sexual exclusive relationships. It's.

43:08

Really important for one or the other

43:10

or both of them to be able

43:12

to say perhaps different times over the

43:14

course of. Marriage.

43:18

And their sex life. I'm.

43:20

Bored. I wanna shake

43:23

things up a little bit. How do

43:25

we shake things up a little bit?

43:27

In a way that still makes you

43:30

feel safe and physically warm. Get a

43:32

space heater. And.

43:34

Doesn't. Exercise. Too

43:37

much to some sandpaper your nerves around feeling

43:39

subconscious by your body eats. You know, if

43:41

you're not having sex in the shower, you

43:43

can actually wear something while you're having sex.

43:46

And lenses Terribly sexy to have sex with

43:48

someone who's wearing. Something that

43:50

makes them feel safe or

43:52

warmer, secure or. Hot!

43:55

What are those things the your wife might be

43:57

able to where? you too might be able to

43:59

wear it again. There. That.

44:01

Would make her feel hot but you can't have

44:03

that conversation. About shaking up

44:05

your sex life. If

44:07

you can't be honest with each other about why you might want

44:10

to do that, Now. It's

44:12

risky. You go to somebody whose job it

44:14

is to fuck you and say I am

44:17

bored by this fucking. They

44:20

might be bored by the fucking to.

44:22

We're. In a rut. And

44:24

I'd like to get us out of that brought

44:27

together. At

44:29

the beginning of a relationship, the

44:31

sexes effortlessly exciting because they're the

44:33

adventure you're on, your the adventure

44:35

in their on ten fifteen, twenty

44:37

years into a relationship particularly a

44:39

sexual exclusive relationship, you are not

44:41

the adventure. Anymore and they

44:43

are not the adventure anymore And if you want to

44:45

feel. That. Sense of.

44:48

Adrenaline, even a bit of stress hormones

44:50

pumping that arousal that risk that made

44:52

sex feel so adventurous. Of the starts

44:54

you have to. Go. On

44:57

an adventure together intentionally. What?

44:59

Would that look like for you? Adventure.

45:03

Is. A spectrum would one couple

45:05

from courts, the bench. Another couple

45:07

would regard as cozy and intimate.

45:10

Your wife celtic somebody who needs

45:12

intimacy. And needs to feel

45:14

emotionally safe and centered. To

45:16

feel desire or to want to

45:18

have sex. You. Managed to

45:21

create those feelings for your wife

45:23

in this one location in your house.

45:25

The bathrooms at shower time. Recreate.

45:28

All of those settings. Those sex

45:30

settings for your wife. Outside

45:33

of the bathroom. Not at

45:35

shower time. And

45:38

tell you what's That's what you want do. And

45:40

that's what you intend to do. I

45:43

think you're within your rights to say we've been having

45:45

sex in shower for very long time and you know

45:47

what? the challenge for the next month is when I

45:49

can have sex and shower. We're. Going

45:51

have everything else that. Being.

45:53

Alone together in the bathroom does for

45:55

us run into missing in action and

45:57

safety. We're. going to do it Someplace

46:00

else we're gonna do it in the attic. We're

46:02

gonna do it in the basement We're gonna do

46:04

it in the car or we're gonna do it

46:07

on date night We're gonna cancel fucking dinner on

46:09

date night and go find someplace in

46:12

public in the dark Where

46:15

we can fuck? All right

46:17

before we get to this week's listener

46:19

response calls I want to share a

46:21

couple of listener comments about last week's

46:24

show that were posted at savage love

46:26

says Chris Smith Dan Deadpool tried pegging

46:28

for his girlfriend in the first Deadpool

46:30

film and didn't love it But

46:32

what if they didn't know how to use

46:35

lube or ease it in? What if eight

46:37

years later by the time Deadpool 3

46:39

comes out it turns out he never gave

46:41

up and now loves pegging possible and plausible

46:44

alright If you're gonna show a character giving

46:47

it up and engaging in a sex act

46:49

that makes the character Miserable and they have

46:51

to bail and you want that same character

46:53

to brag about engaging in that sex act

46:55

three films later It is

46:58

on you writers director producers

47:00

star To give us that

47:02

tried it again liked it a lot more back

47:04

story Marvel movies are 80% Backstory

47:06

origin stories and if your movie is gonna dine

47:08

out on the leading man being into pegging You've

47:12

got to show us how and when he

47:14

got into pegging Says lazy

47:16

femme during your conversation about how

47:18

polarizing Enm is Dan that's ethical non-monogamy.

47:21

I was reminded of a conversation I

47:23

had with a middle-aged straight man who

47:25

met someone who practiced enm and said

47:28

wistfully I didn't even know

47:30

that was an option while he enjoys his

47:32

life There are plenty of people out there

47:34

who resent people who practice enm because they

47:36

never felt like it was an option for

47:39

whatever reason for them Oh

47:41

man, that is I think in some

47:44

cases true And you see the same

47:46

thing with some really angry gay closet

47:48

cases out there they look at

47:50

men who are out living openly as gay men getting

47:52

all the dick and Resent them

47:55

because somebody else convinced them that being out

47:57

and gay and getting their fair share of

47:59

dick wasn't an option and they look at out

48:01

gay men and are filled with rage,

48:04

but not at the people who lied to them.

48:06

They rage at the out gay men who

48:08

prove that they were conned successfully by liars.

48:10

Seems to me you should be mad at

48:13

the liars, not mad at the out gay

48:15

men, but man, a lot of those angry

48:17

gay closet cases are mad at out gay

48:19

men and it is always weird. Finally says

48:21

Jonathan, the by caller with the cuck fiance,

48:24

you should have been harder on him, Dan. The

48:26

caller says that the majority of the time when

48:28

they're having sex, there is another

48:30

man. That seems tiring. I love threesomes

48:32

with my boyfriend, but we fuck just

48:34

fine without them. The caller could

48:37

do better as a solo poly guy than

48:40

attached to this lady who already has

48:42

kids who seems to see him as

48:44

her personal gay porn studio. Something

48:47

else for that caller and his fiance to think

48:49

about if they do both want kids, and that's

48:52

not a question I think we have an answer

48:54

to yet. As much

48:56

as you might wanna have threesomes,

48:58

threesomes become imminently harder to arrange

49:00

for logistical reasons and reasons of

49:02

simple exhaustion once you have small

49:05

children. So if your sex

49:07

life requires the presence of other people

49:09

to exist at all, you're

49:11

not gonna have much of a sex life for

49:13

the next few years after you have kids, caller,

49:15

something to bear in mind. All right, for more

49:17

listener comments and more of my responses, be sure

49:19

to check out struggle session, a weekly

49:22

bonus column for Magnum subs goes up every

49:24

Thursday at savage.love. It is also

49:26

the place where you will find the

49:29

Muppet-based man of the week. Now,

49:31

on to listener response calls.

49:35

Hi, this is in response to episode 903.

49:40

And the bi guy who was getting married

49:44

and had these elaborate

49:46

plans for him and

49:48

his fiance on their wedding night,

49:50

I thought Dan's solution about

49:53

getting fucked by a groomsman Before

49:55

the wedding and then after the wedding,

49:58

having sex with The Answer. The

50:00

One bite. My advice. Shake.

50:03

That pressure off of yourself

50:05

and don't plan to do

50:07

any of that on your

50:10

wedding plans. He gets together

50:12

with your fiance and has

50:14

it's elaborate fantasy be laid

50:16

out sometime. After.

50:19

Your wedding so the tools you

50:21

can just concentrate on ensuring the

50:23

special day and not have this.

50:27

Sword. Hanging over your head

50:29

of having to play out this

50:31

fantasy is getting stuck by all

50:33

these men to get your fiance

50:36

riled up of the to of

50:38

stupid have sex, Good luck and

50:40

congratulations. Hi name's

50:43

you seem to go

50:45

home mom a room

50:47

for some whether they're

50:50

for cool people around

50:52

them. Attractive

50:54

people around them. I

50:57

knew that I look around and

51:00

time the sunset woman is the

51:02

I look around the man. Trying

51:05

to figure out who's a try. And

51:09

look around my eyes.

51:11

I would say that may be the

51:13

only. Difference.

51:17

Is. I have

51:19

learned the season situations. Like a

51:21

gym, I will do my best

51:23

to keep my eyes to myself

51:25

because casing and men. Have

51:28

repercussions of them thinking that

51:30

they can invade my personal

51:32

space just because I'm. Looking

51:35

around. So maybe it's

51:37

not about whether women

51:40

do not. And

51:42

watch as much. but it

51:45

is about the social norms

51:47

and social repercussions when we

51:49

do that makes us less.

51:53

Eyes. as a response for the

51:55

woman who is looking to have

51:57

penetrated fact for the first time

52:00

I didn't even get through the entire

52:02

answer that was delivered, though it

52:04

seemed very considerate, but I couldn't get

52:06

through it because I think sometimes the

52:09

answers are over complicated. She should definitely

52:11

put this in her profile. She is

52:13

going to get so many

52:16

great applicants for this job

52:19

if she words it correctly, and she's

52:21

going to meet really, really great guys.

52:24

Last time I had penetrative sex with a man was when

52:26

I was 28, and

52:29

I was able to select

52:31

a great candidate, and

52:33

I still think really fondly of him. He

52:35

is a great guy, so I think

52:37

she just needs to put it out there,

52:39

and she can actually ...

52:41

She's going to get a great selection to

52:44

choose from. Anyway, I'm super excited for her.

52:46

I think she's going to have a great

52:48

time. That's also all I can think

52:50

of, is like, oh my God, her

52:52

life is just going to get so much

52:54

more fun from now on. And

52:59

we're going to leave it there. We've got

53:01

three ways for you to answer your questions

53:03

and your comments for future shows. You can

53:06

record your question or comment at savage.love.askdan, or

53:08

you can use the Voice Memo app on

53:10

your phone to record your

53:12

question or comment and email it to us

53:14

at q at savage.love, and

53:17

you can call our landline and leave us

53:19

a message of 206-302-2064. Hump

53:24

2024 Part 1, playing in Seattle at Olympia

53:26

this weekend before opening in San Francisco, Portland,

53:28

Albuquerque, Madison, and Long Beach in the next

53:30

couple of weeks. To find out when Hump

53:33

is coming to your city or a city

53:35

near you, to find out when you can

53:37

see Hump in a theater,

53:39

as Hump was meant to be

53:41

seen, go to humpfilmfest.com. Follow

53:44

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53:46

Savage. Follow me on Blue Sky, at Dan Savage,

53:48

and I am still on The Bad Place at

53:50

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53:52

McGraw on Twitter, at Peter McGraw, and

53:55

on Instagram, and threads, at Peter McGraw.

53:57

To learn more about his books and his work, check out the website.

54:00

his website, petermcgraw.org.

54:03

The Savage Lovecast is produced every week by

54:05

Nancy Hartoonian and me and the

54:07

tech-savvy at-risk youth, and Nancy. We'll all be back

54:09

at you next week for another installment of The

54:11

Savage Lovecast. Thank you, as ever,

54:14

for downloading.