0:00

You listening to the micro version of

0:02

the Savage look cast at Savage.love. Your

0:06

style good relationship color

0:08

or good more sexual.

0:19

Satisfied. Or.

0:23

I Which one are you do the

0:25

which one are you mother fuckin groomers

0:28

took both humpback whales to Drag Queen

0:30

Story Our. Pride.

0:32

Or the public library? That's how this works,

0:35

right? Haven't gay sex much was being go?

0:37

That doesn't just happen. It's not something. A.

0:40

Member of a Species just does. Someone's

0:42

gonna take you to a pride parade

0:44

or show you and Lgbt book about

0:46

gay penguins in a school library. Or

0:49

you gotta see those lesbian moms. And

0:51

that one Pixar film. were a couple

0:53

a gay dads and an Ikea commercial

0:55

on them. Gay. Sex.

0:58

Pops. Into your head? Then you wanna

1:00

do it? Which. Is what

1:03

so confusing about these gay humpback

1:05

whales? Big news. Over the weekend

1:08

to mail humpback whales were observed

1:10

having sex voter grabbed, having sex

1:12

near Hawaii and twenty twenty two

1:15

the Guardian had a headline for

1:17

the ages humpback sex photographed for

1:19

first time and both wells mail.

1:22

Also love the sub head of

1:24

the Guardian to same sex marine

1:27

giants captured copulate ing in amorous

1:29

encounter off Hawaii coast Amazingly according

1:31

to. Researchers: This was the

1:34

very first time the only

1:36

time humpback whales have been

1:39

observed having sex. First.

1:41

Time any humpback whale copulate and

1:43

has been observed at all. even

1:45

sightings of humpback whale dick extremely

1:47

rare. Also from The Guardian the

1:49

penis is a male. Humpback whales

1:51

are usually concealed in what is

1:53

known as a general slit to

1:56

make the well more streamlined while

1:58

swimming and and she'd penis. has

2:00

only been witnessed a small number of

2:02

times in the past, usually when

2:04

a whale is piffing. Scientific

2:07

American goes into more detail about

2:09

this specific sexual encounter observed by

2:11

scientists between these two male humpback

2:13

whales. Whale B had

2:16

inserted his penis into whale A's

2:18

genital slit, the opening that

2:20

cheesed the penis when it's not extruded for

2:22

mating. The penetration observed was

2:24

very shallow because, as Stephanie Stack,

2:26

a researcher at the Pacific Whale

2:29

Foundation told Scientific American, the

2:31

humpback whale's penis is

2:33

quite large. Alright, if

2:36

you are a gay human being of

2:38

a certain age, one of the things

2:40

you remember from your gay childhood is

2:42

listening to TV preachers say that homosexuality

2:45

is so disgusting, not

2:47

even animals do it. Once

2:49

these preachers were presented with evidence, a

2:51

mountain of evidence, that in fact animals

2:54

do do it, other animals do

2:56

have gay sex, exclusively homosexual orientations

2:59

have been observed in other

3:01

animal species, 10% of male

3:03

sheep, aka rams, refused to mate

3:05

with ewes, female sheep, but will

3:07

ram the shit out of other

3:10

rams exclusively. Anyway,

3:13

when presented with this evidence of actual

3:15

homosexual sex and homosexual orientations in the

3:17

animal kingdom, the same preachers

3:19

who had been insisting gay sex was so disgusting,

3:21

not even animals do it, turned

3:24

right around, turned on a

3:26

dime, and started to say

3:28

that homosexual sex is so disgusting that animals

3:31

do it. And we are

3:33

not animals, the TV preachers thundered. For

3:35

the record, we are in fact animals

3:38

and we are not the only animals

3:40

that have homosexual sex and homosexual orientations.

3:42

24 years ago,

3:44

biologist Bruce Bajamil brought out

3:47

his groundbreaking book, Biological Exuberance,

3:49

as the New York Times reported,

3:52

Bajamil's book pulled together a colossal

3:54

amount of previous piecemeal research and

3:57

showed how biologists' biases had

3:59

marginalized. The Animal homosexuality for

4:01

the last one hundred and fifty

4:03

years. sometimes innocently enough, sometimes in

4:06

an eruption of anthropomorphic disgust, courtship

4:08

behaviors, and sex between two animals

4:11

of the same sex or persistently

4:13

described. The New York Times continues

4:15

in the scientific literature as mark

4:18

or pseudo court ship or just

4:20

practice. Individual populations are species were

4:23

considered to be entirely heterosexual into

4:25

a proven otherwise bows Mill observed

4:27

as a result of the homophobia.

4:30

And had or of sexism

4:32

common among biologists. And he's

4:34

right. Basil has the receipts.

4:37

He quotes a biologist who

4:39

studied sheep emerald those game

4:41

rams that biologists sad. I

4:43

still cringe at the memory

4:45

of seeing old dram mount

4:47

Sram repeatedly to think this

4:50

biologist road of those magnificent

4:52

beast as queers. Oh. God.

4:55

You. Know, I gotta say these photos

4:57

we now have of these humpback

5:00

whales having gay sex. The only

5:02

evidence we have of humpback whales

5:04

having sex at all Ever. And

5:06

it's all gay evidence. I do

5:08

it. Call double standards on this

5:10

show and I'm at Aqaba one

5:12

out now. For decades, bigoted zoologist

5:14

biologists assume that animals never had

5:16

gay sex unless they had encountered

5:18

portable proof proof they could not

5:21

ignore of homosexual sex between. Males.

5:23

Of other species. But.

5:26

Absent back kind of proof Species

5:28

were as Bazemore says, considered to

5:31

be entirely heterosexual until proven otherwise.

5:34

By. That standard one I'm about

5:36

to embrace. Actually, just for the

5:38

humpback whales, we have to declare

5:40

up that Weldon entirely day species

5:42

until some proof emerges that. They.

5:45

Have Straight Sacks. I mean all the

5:47

evidence we currently have of humpback whale

5:50

sex is Gay sex. So by the

5:52

logic of others biologists quoted in bars,

5:54

most books, all humpback whales are gay

5:56

until someone can prove otherwise. Quebec

6:00

wells one hundred nearly to extinction. On

6:02

the nineteenth and twentieth century, their numbers

6:04

plummeted from the hundreds of thousands down

6:06

to just five hundred animals by nineteen

6:08

fifties. bans on commercial whaling a brought

6:10

those numbers back up and current estimates,

6:13

but the population of humpback whales worldwide

6:15

at one hundred and thirty five. Thousand.

6:18

That's good news and cents a

6:20

pack? Wealth or clownfish? The can

6:23

change sex. Guess we have

6:25

to concede that humpback whales or it's

6:27

always on the deck. With. The

6:29

boys, It's not like a humpback

6:31

whales can access I Vs treatments

6:34

in Alabama or anywhere else, so

6:36

we can safely assume humpback whales.

6:38

We can infer humpback whales are

6:40

having straight sachs to but. We.

6:43

Don't have any evidence. The rule

6:45

is pics or it happen humpback

6:47

whales not kids are it didn't

6:49

happen. So no.

6:52

Pick. Of straight. Humpback Whale

6:54

Sack. So no proof of straight humpback

6:56

whale Saxon. I'm gonna stick to what

6:58

I said a minute ago. All humpback

7:01

whales are gay for now until. Proven.

7:04

Otherwise, I really enjoyed following the

7:06

story over the weekend, but it

7:08

didn't take long before it was

7:10

fed into. The. Online

7:12

Outrage Machines. Turns out well A

7:14

the bottom well in this encounter

7:16

was fifteen years old and well

7:18

be the top. Well in this

7:20

encounter was thirty years old. This

7:22

age gap was unacceptable to the

7:25

age gap discord crowd on line

7:27

and it was very amusing to

7:29

watch people try to cancel we'll

7:31

be over the weekend Not as

7:33

amusing as watching people try to

7:35

bring well A and well be

7:37

to drag queen story our that

7:39

would be very amusing. But.

7:41

Amusing nonetheless. All right coming up

7:43

on today's show. The little lady

7:46

who started the great war over

7:48

polyamory joins meets Molly Rodent Winter

7:50

author of more a memoir the

7:53

book that launched a thousand think

7:55

pieces about Poly Amri Milius here

7:57

to talk about what it's like.

8:00

The been at the center of this

8:02

controversy over the last couple a months

8:04

We talk about the assumption people make

8:06

about women and open marriages that they're

8:08

miserable just doing it for their husbands

8:10

and a lot more. Some of my

8:12

conversation with Molly's on the micro version

8:14

of the show that you're here for

8:16

free, but if you want to hear

8:18

my entire conversation with Molly Rodent Winter

8:21

to going to need subscribed to the

8:23

Magnum Savage webcast at Savage.love. That.

8:25

Plus tons your questions. Lots my answers

8:27

given up on today's show. His.

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9:08

Arm as Swayze Having out for

9:10

men about five years ago, I

9:12

got the boy cause I live

9:14

in Utah eating asteroids. I am

9:17

now interesting. A lot of older

9:19

people, a lot of older Bremen,

9:21

a lot of will demand by

9:23

my sexual a famous people at

9:25

bars or the south. I'm sober

9:27

and usually. The people I

9:30

sit on are not drunk off their ass.

9:32

I won't talk to them by. I.

9:34

Am wondering your ticket for sitting on

9:36

his. People older than me. Cause

9:39

I'm twenty seven. I usually have people

9:42

tend five years older than me and

9:44

more specs or dad and their offer

9:46

better. And that. I

9:49

guess my question is how. It's

9:51

you see to for and for said of

9:53

the age group. As

9:55

their friends with benefits and has do

9:57

it with my age group. The As.

10:00

For having an older men and

10:02

women. has determined to stay for

10:04

a while. Through that I can

10:06

see my air strikes me as

10:09

he met. Are. Gonna

10:11

love the idea. The dirt like Also

10:13

people bars are there where you're going

10:15

to pick up these older men and

10:18

women like there are you. Leather

10:20

bars or a be d bars

10:22

or puppy bars. To.

10:24

Put yourself out there. Keep. Going.

10:27

To the places where you'd had some

10:29

luck, had some success meeting older people

10:32

who are interested in you. Speaking on

10:34

behalf of the older people community, I

10:36

don't think there's any shortage of older

10:39

men and women who would be into

10:41

a hot twenty seven year old, recently

10:43

divorced woman who isn't looking for something

10:46

complicated or entangling. Whether someone you've just

10:48

slept with is interested in sleeping with

10:50

you again, Were. Sleeping with you

10:53

on the regular is it an entirely separate issue?

10:55

You know some of the people that you meet,

10:57

some of the people you pick up, some of

10:59

the people you go home with are going to

11:01

really dig you. Dig out you. tasting how you

11:04

smell, you're gonna vibe you're going to click and

11:06

they're gonna wanna see you again. Not.

11:08

Everybody's gonna feel that way. You don't feel

11:10

that way about absolutely everybody the you sleep

11:12

with. I'm sure you've slept with some people.

11:14

Are you were like are I'd That was

11:17

math. Or. That

11:19

was bad and I don't want to fuck that

11:21

person again and I'm not going up like that

11:23

person against. Some. People may have

11:25

the same reaction to fucking you and

11:27

that's fine, and you take it in

11:29

stride if you think you're doing something

11:32

wrong, if you're not as having met

11:34

sex with someone. Or

11:36

multiple. people but inflicting bad sex on

11:38

them more than you need to engage

11:40

in some introspection and maybe a course

11:43

correction and plus some feedback from regular

11:45

sex partners about what it is the

11:47

you're doing in bad that my work

11:49

for them but other people might be

11:51

put off by and if he could

11:53

tweak that are just that maybe you'll

11:55

have more people wanting seconds thirds and

11:57

for as for letting them know that

11:59

you're not looking for commitment that you recently got

12:01

out of a marriage, that you

12:03

would like a regular connection with

12:06

a little stable of old

12:09

folks and your old folks petting zoo. Just

12:11

say that, say that out loud so that the person

12:14

that you're sleeping with can make an informed choice about

12:16

whether they want to keep sleeping with you. If

12:19

somebody is fucking you, somebody is 10 years older,

12:21

some hot older woman, hot older man is

12:23

fucking you and they could see themselves falling

12:26

in love with you, knowing

12:29

that that's not an option, knowing that's

12:31

not something that you want for

12:33

them to make that kind of emotional investment

12:35

for them to invest those kinds of hopes

12:37

in you. Yeah. If

12:40

they know not to do that, they're less likely to

12:42

do that. Or if they feel like hanging out with

12:44

you is prying their heart open

12:46

in a way that they can't control while they

12:48

may choose not to keep hanging out

12:51

with you. So as

12:53

not to wind up getting hurt themselves, but

12:55

also to respect your stated boundaries around what

12:57

it is that you're open to and interested

12:59

in. Seems

13:03

to me that you're doing everything

13:05

right, except maybe blurting all that out about

13:07

what you want, what you don't want. You're

13:10

going out there, you're meeting people, you're fucking them. Some of them

13:13

are going to want to fuck you again. Some of them are

13:15

not going to want to fuck you again. Some of them you're

13:17

going to want to fuck again. Some of

13:19

them you're not going to want to fuck again. You

13:21

got to find the overlap. You got to find the

13:23

people who want to fuck you again, that you want

13:25

to fuck again, who understand what it is that you

13:28

want from the people that you're fucking and

13:30

what it is that you don't, which will require

13:32

you to use your words. We

13:35

talk a lot here about spicing up

13:37

our sex lives, trying new things like

13:39

trying it in the car or trying

13:41

it in public. But sometimes

13:43

a comfortable and familiar place is the

13:45

best place to try it. The best

13:47

place to do it. A place where

13:49

you can fall asleep right afterwards. For

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With Helix, better sleep starts

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now. Hey Dan, Nancy,

15:26

and the tech savvy at risk youth.

15:28

So I'm a 23 year old gay

15:30

male living in Chicago who hasn't been

15:32

sexually active in the past two years.

15:34

And I'm finally at the point where

15:36

I'm ready to change this and finally

15:38

have my cum spring up. My

15:41

few sexual experiences in college left

15:43

me underwhelmed and unexcited about being

15:45

sexually active. I think this

15:47

is mostly because I was not super attracted

15:49

to the people I was having sex with.

15:52

I'm a really tall muscular guy

15:55

like with a pretty similar build

15:57

and features to Jacob Elordi for

15:59

example. So I have no shortage

16:01

of guys that are paying me attention on

16:03

apps or bars. And

16:05

even when I meet an attractive guy at the

16:08

bar or make out or dance with him, I

16:11

find myself losing interest really quickly.

16:14

And I also feel pretty

16:16

overwhelmed at the prospect of talking

16:19

to him about my lack of sexual

16:21

experiences and, you

16:24

know, lack of openness. I know

16:26

that communication is key to great sexual

16:28

experiences, but I just feel anxiety about

16:30

talking about this. I

16:32

had always told myself that I wanted to

16:34

wait for a comfortable relationship to explore my

16:37

sexuality more, but I'm just kind of tired

16:39

of holding out for this guy. I

16:41

have dozens of guys I've met over the past

16:43

year who are really into me that I

16:46

could just reach out to, but I

16:48

feel like I'd be lowering my standards

16:50

to have sexual relationships with them. Am

16:53

I the problem? How can I get

16:55

out of this analysis paralysis and finally

16:57

enter my period of sexual liberation? So

17:00

all these guys who've expressed interest in you that

17:02

you could reach out to, so these are guys

17:04

that you at least got to know well enough

17:06

while you were dancing or making out at the

17:08

bar to exchange phone

17:10

numbers or follow each other on Instagram.

17:12

You have a way of connecting

17:15

with these guys. Connect

17:18

with some of these guys. Go the fuck out

17:20

with some of these guys. You don't necessarily have

17:22

to have sex with them, but you

17:24

could reach out to these guys who are into you

17:26

and reach out to the guys who are into you

17:28

that you are into as well, and

17:32

then hang out. Say

17:34

you live in Chicago. Go to the lake. Go

17:37

to Hollywood Beach. Hang out. See if

17:39

you get to know them a little

17:41

bit better, that you don't wind up

17:45

catching some sort of feel

17:47

for them, some sort of attraction, some sort of vibe that

17:49

makes you want to be

17:53

physically intimate. You're 23 years old.

17:56

You've had some sexual experiences. They

17:58

weren't great. You had

18:01

sexual experiences in college with guys you

18:03

weren't super attracted to. If

18:06

you are Jacob Elordi moving through the bars

18:08

in Chicago, I'm sure you have a lot

18:10

of guys approaching you, coming up to you,

18:12

coming at you. Not

18:16

every guy who comes at you is a guy that you're going

18:18

to be attracted to. One or two

18:20

of them must be. But

18:23

if there's something about a guy coming at you that is

18:26

a turnoff for you somehow, then

18:29

it's on you to approach guys

18:32

that you think are attractive. And

18:34

if you're tall and you're muscular and you look

18:36

like Jacob Elordi, you approaching a guy you think

18:39

is attractive, you're most likely going to

18:41

get a good reception

18:43

from a guy who is psyched. If you're

18:46

as hot as Jacob Elordi, there are probably guys

18:48

who think you're out

18:50

of their league and are into you

18:52

and would approach you, but they've already

18:54

shot themselves down in

18:57

advance for fear of being rejected by somebody

18:59

as hot as you claim to

19:01

be. And I'm just taking your word for it. So

19:04

approach those guys. Approach guys that you

19:06

think are hot. Maybe just shifting

19:09

that dynamic. Instead of you waiting for

19:11

guys to come up to you, you're

19:13

going up to guys. Maybe just reversing

19:15

the flow of the usual interactions will

19:17

give you a different feel or feeling

19:19

or desire about what to do next.

19:21

And maybe then you can have your

19:24

cum springa. What you're really

19:26

going to need to do here, whether what

19:29

I've just advised you to

19:31

do is the right approach or not, what you

19:33

do absolutely need to do here

19:35

is start pushing yourself outside your comfort zone.

19:39

The next time you're on a dance floor, making

19:41

out with a guy and you find

19:43

yourself losing interest, push past

19:45

that feeling. Maybe

19:48

you're losing interest because you don't like the

19:50

taste of their spit. Maybe you're losing interest

19:52

because they said something stupid and disqualifying, who

19:55

knows, whatever it was. And

19:57

the loss of interest is legitimate.

20:01

and not something that you can easily

20:04

reverse or flip. Or

20:07

maybe this loss of

20:10

interest is some self-protective mechanism that

20:12

kicked into gear after those negative experiences that

20:15

you had in college where you went through

20:17

with it and you didn't

20:19

feel great about it afterwards. And there's some kind

20:21

of circuit breaker that began to kick in where

20:24

you don't go through with it or you don't

20:26

let yourself go through with it. Protect yourself from

20:28

that kind of disappointment or

20:30

shitty experience. And the

20:32

only way to disable that particular type

20:35

of circuit breaker is to push past

20:37

it and then have, hopefully, fingers crossed,

20:39

some positive experiences that reset your expectations

20:42

about what is possible with a guy

20:44

that you had a good feeling

20:46

about and just met. So

20:49

I suspect self-sabotage here, self-protective

20:52

self-sabotage. You had some experiences

20:54

in college, didn't feel

20:56

great about the sex or the men or

20:58

yourself after and you are now in

21:01

your own way because you didn't like how that

21:04

felt. You don't wanna risk feeling

21:06

that way again, but you're blocking

21:08

potential positive feelings and good sex

21:10

that you might have with people

21:12

that you are into to

21:15

protect yourself from the bad sex you had with

21:17

people that you weren't into two years ago. Gotta

21:20

carve some new neural pathways. You've gotta have some

21:23

positive experiences. So

21:25

here's my homework. Go to

21:27

the bars, go out, be hot, find

21:30

somebody you think is hot, approach him

21:34

and then dancing together,

21:36

making out, whatever it is you're doing, if

21:38

you get to that point where you just

21:40

feel like I'm losing interest, stick

21:43

around, fake interest and

21:45

see if genuine interest doesn't

21:48

kick back into gear. So many

21:50

of us could really benefit from some therapy.

21:53

It shows your commitment to your mental health

21:55

and it pays off for a lifetime. But

21:58

the hardest part of getting started with therapy. is

22:00

finding the time. That's why I

22:02

recommend Talkspace. By doing everything online,

22:04

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22:06

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22:08

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22:49

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22:51

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And eighty dollars off your first

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the shop. Let's Talkspace dot Com

23:10

slash Savage. We're. Going to take a

23:12

quick break from your calls to speak with. Thank

23:27

you so much, Dan. Great to be here. So

23:29

when Abraham Lincoln met Harriet Beecher Stowe

23:31

at the height of the Civil War,

23:34

the author, of course, of

23:36

Uncle Tom's cabin, which helped make the case for ending

23:38

slavery and the case for the war, many people felt

23:40

Lincoln looked at Stowe and said, so

23:43

you're the little woman who wrote the

23:45

book that made this great war. Wow.

23:47

I am not comparing myself to Abraham Lincoln, but I

23:50

do feel a little bit like I'm talking to Harriet

23:52

Beecher Stowe right now. You are the

23:54

woman who wrote the book that,

23:56

well, didn't take us to war, but opened

23:58

a new front in our never ending. Culture Wars launched

24:01

a million think pieces. What

24:03

has it been like to be Molly Rodden

24:05

Winter right now in the center

24:07

of this storm about polyamory?

24:10

Yeah, I love the comparison. I mean,

24:12

that's a great honor. I think my

24:14

mother wrote her master's thesis about Harriet

24:16

Beatrice Doe actually, so she'll love it

24:19

too. Yeah,

24:21

it's been really interesting. I

24:24

think that it's kind

24:26

of what I, not exactly what I expected when I

24:28

wrote the book. I thought I would ruffle

24:31

some feathers, but I

24:33

was noticing in my 15 years

24:36

of practicing polyamory that

24:38

most of the stories I was seeing were not

24:41

about people that were

24:43

like me in terms of being kind

24:45

of like quote unquote,

24:47

for lack of a better

24:50

word, mainstream, normal appearing, kind

24:52

of like, you know, I

24:54

pass as monogamous. Well,

24:56

we like to call socially monogamous people. We

24:58

like to call socially monogamous. Are perceived to

25:00

be monogamous because people just assume couples are

25:02

monogamous, especially married couples with kids, unless they

25:04

speak up and say that they are not

25:06

monogamous. Just like people assume people are straight

25:09

unless they say they're gay.

25:11

Right, so people didn't think they

25:14

knew anybody monogamous and

25:16

now suddenly they're like. Non-monogamous. Non-monogamous,

25:18

sorry, yeah, exactly. And now they're like,

25:20

oh, maybe I do, you know? So

25:23

anyway, I knew I would ruffle some feathers,

25:25

but I also think what's happening is that

25:29

there's a lot, it reminds me so

25:31

much of everything you've been talking about

25:33

in your last few episodes, Dan, about,

25:35

you know, this push to take

25:38

the vote away from women, for

25:40

example, or all

25:43

the different ways in

25:45

which the increasing assertion

25:48

of women that we are

25:50

whole people with thoughts of

25:52

our own and the perspective

25:54

that needs to be listened

25:56

to, really listened to, is

25:59

so, threatening to the powers

26:01

that be. And so the

26:04

idea of a mom of two

26:06

kids who looks

26:09

like everyone else might be

26:12

infiltrating and spreading

26:14

this message that women can

26:16

be sexual subjects, not just

26:18

sexual objects, is

26:20

so, I think, horrifying to a

26:22

lot of people. So that's

26:24

one of my angles anyway. I'm not sure,

26:26

what do you think? Why is this happening,

26:29

Dan? Well, I think we have

26:31

to credit it to the PR department at

26:33

your publisher. Oh yeah, yeah. Got giant pieces

26:35

in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The

26:37

New York Post, Wall Street Journal, which then

26:39

kicked off basically the

26:42

think piece industrial complex to really pick

26:44

over the book. One

26:46

of the criticisms I've read

26:48

out there, and I was curious what your response to that would be. You're

26:51

honest in the book about the fact that it

26:54

was sort of your husband's idea, or you went to

26:56

your husband when you were attracted to another man, and

26:58

he said, it turns me

27:00

on to hear about this, go for it.

27:03

And people have suggested, people

27:05

have written, I've read the book, I

27:07

don't think it's an accurate or fair

27:09

interpretation of the journey and the unpacking

27:12

of what is a really complicated emotional

27:14

process, moving from monogamy to non-monogamy. I

27:16

don't think that's fair, but can you address that? That

27:19

this was all for a man's pleasure. Like you just

27:21

said, part of what

27:23

you're asserting here is that fuck the patriarchy, women

27:25

have agency, women are people and

27:27

individuals and can make their own

27:29

choices, but is this a choice

27:31

you made for your husband? Yeah,

27:34

no, I wanted to show the complexity

27:37

of it to the degree that I

27:39

could, because there are scenes where

27:42

I'm in therapy asking my therapist, wait, this

27:44

was my idea, right? I wasn't

27:46

sure sometimes, because I was

27:49

trained by my own mother and

27:52

the mother before her, right, to

27:54

be, play within the

27:56

rules. And so I did. permission.

28:00

I was accustomed to

28:03

being a sexual object

28:05

in many ways. If

28:07

you talk to any woman of my generation in

28:10

particular, you will know that we swallowed

28:13

a lot of objectification for a long,

28:15

long time, which is why, you know,

28:17

some people see the Barbie movie and

28:19

they're like, oh dear lord, and I'm

28:22

like, no, that's, that was really it.

28:24

That was the 80s and

28:26

90s. It's historically accurate.

28:30

And I'm still kind of deprogramming

28:32

myself. You know what I mean?

28:35

We all are. It was interesting reading the book.

28:37

You did what people are constantly

28:39

telling me that everybody who's attracted to somebody

28:41

else when they've made a monogamous commitment is

28:43

supposed to do. You went to the person

28:45

that you had made that monogamous commitment to

28:47

and talked about it and got permission,

28:49

which is what everybody agrees. Everybody who's

28:52

thinking about, you know, wants

28:54

to revise the commitment that they made needs

28:56

to do, but then that spun in the

28:58

criticism of the book of seeking a man's

29:00

permission. Yeah. And so the man

29:02

having control as opposed to you being

29:06

equal individuals in a

29:08

committed relationship, you have obligations

29:11

emotionally, sexually to each

29:13

other that aren't necessarily gendered. But I did

29:15

note reading the book, you went to your

29:17

husband, you got his permission, you went to

29:20

a friend hoping to game it

29:22

out to get permission and what you got was

29:24

shamed. Then you went to a therapist to get

29:26

permission. Yes. When

29:28

did you finally give yourself permission? That

29:31

was that was the best part about my

29:33

therapist, you know, and I tell people if

29:35

your therapist tells you what to do, it's

29:38

not about finding out what to

29:40

do. It's about looking within

29:44

yourself and what

29:46

I realized is that I have

29:48

been seeking permission. I had been

29:50

so Worried

29:53

about pleasing everyone else for my entire

29:55

life to the point that I didn't

29:57

even know what I wanted. And So.

30:00

I had to go out and experience things

30:02

in order to figure it out. Don't get

30:04

me started on the movie poor things because

30:06

I just watched it three nights ago and

30:08

I can't stop thinking about if I I

30:11

will just go on record of thing I

30:13

love decks but to me it was. Very

30:15

much about that same idea.

30:17

That a woman first test to

30:20

unlock her own sexual agency and

30:22

become a sexual subject In. Order

30:24

to unload all the rest. That our body

30:27

is kind of a gateway to our experience

30:29

of the world and when we don't feel

30:31

ownership over. Our own body. We don't feel

30:33

ownership over any part of ourselves, so I

30:35

think I had to do that first for

30:38

myself and then I could figure it out.

30:41

Who's. More this conversation on the

30:43

magnum version of the show Magnus

30:45

Others will cost more gas, more

30:47

calls Know out subscribe now or

30:49

give subscription as a gift at

30:52

Savage.love. This episode is

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belt trimming experience and with Meridian Trimmer

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you can get one today. Hi,

32:15

Dan and friends. I'm a 33 year

32:17

old cis straightish poly woman in the

32:19

Pacific Northwest. I often hear women my

32:21

age talking about how guys just

32:24

want to do anything they can to get them

32:26

in bed and will be deceptive around it and

32:29

you know don't want to commit and that sort

32:31

of thing but I feel like I'm actually having

32:33

the opposite problem. I meet a lot of guys

32:35

that fall really hard and really quick for me

32:37

like on the first date waxing

32:39

poetic about how they manifested me into the

32:41

universe and I'm everything they're looking for and

32:44

start dreaming about all the like future

32:46

things that they want to do together. Suffice

32:48

it to say it's a huge turn off for

32:51

me. Even when I feel like I jived with

32:53

them well on the first date and would have gotten along with

32:55

them but they kind of torpedo it with this

32:58

over the top clinginess really early on and

33:00

this has happened like a good half a

33:02

dozen times this year already on first date

33:04

sometimes second date so there's a clear pattern

33:07

here. I promise I'm not intending to do

33:09

this as a humble brag. It generally makes

33:11

me like really uncomfortable to be put in

33:13

this position where we feel so mismatched

33:16

you know. I feel like I'm

33:18

really upfront from the get go that I'm you know

33:20

I'm poly I'm not looking for anything serious right now.

33:23

I'm not available to see them more than once every

33:25

few weeks that I'm dating other people etc. So

33:28

I feel like my intentions are really clearly communicated

33:30

to them like even on the

33:32

apps before we've met and I'm just wondering

33:34

what's going on here like is it possible

33:37

there's something I'm doing like being too vulnerable

33:39

or dressing too sexy or like

33:41

sleeping with them too quickly. I often sleep

33:43

with guys on the first date sometimes second

33:46

date that makes them catch feelings quickly or

33:48

is this one of those things that like

33:50

you always say is just demonstrating their

33:52

poor judgment and that I wouldn't really want to go

33:54

out with them anyway if they do something like this.

33:57

Anyway I'd love to hear your thoughts and see if I can

34:00

change up my dating strategy to avoid

34:02

this or what you

34:04

theorize might be going on with

34:07

these guys. There's always a chance you

34:09

pulled the short straw, several guys in a row.

34:11

You say this has happened about a half a

34:13

dozen times entirely possible that nothing

34:16

that you did or could have done

34:18

differently would have resulted in any other

34:20

outcome but some guy crushing

34:22

as hard on you as these six

34:25

guys in a row crushed

34:27

on you. That said, could

34:29

be you telling these guys

34:32

in advance, you can't have

34:34

me, I am not available

34:36

to you, in the way that

34:39

you might want me to. I'm

34:41

not looking for a boyfriend or a husband,

34:43

I don't want to be anybody's girlfriend, I'm

34:45

Polly, that their egos may

34:47

be getting wrapped up in the

34:49

chase. I don't think this is

34:51

a conscious process but hearing

34:54

from somebody that you're attracted to and

34:56

that you're into, that they're

34:58

the car that you will never catch, might

35:00

inspire some of these dogs to chase that

35:02

car in the hopes of catching

35:04

it. That car being you, those dogs

35:07

being these men. Gotta

35:09

pick your poison though. Often what I hear from women

35:11

when they call the show is they're tired of guys

35:14

who if she expresses the least

35:17

interest in eventually stepping

35:19

out of that relationship escalator, eventually having a

35:21

boyfriend or a husband, being in a committed

35:24

relationship, maybe having a family that that spooks

35:27

guys and they go running off in

35:29

the opposite direction. Ladies, if you're listening,

35:31

if you've had that experience and you'd

35:33

like to experience what this caller

35:35

has experienced, maybe start describing yourself as

35:37

not interested in ever getting anywhere near

35:40

the relationship escalator. Maybe start describing yourself

35:42

as Polly and only

35:44

wanting something casual and

35:47

you will attract the attention of some

35:49

of these guys who've been plaguing you,

35:51

plaguing this caller. I

35:55

don't think it's about dressing less sexy. I don't

35:57

think it's about pretending to

35:59

be anybody. or anything that you're not,

36:01

I just think that

36:04

hearing from someone that you're into

36:06

and that's hot, that

36:09

you can't have me, that I

36:11

can't be had, is

36:13

going to... some people are going

36:15

to react to that by feeling like they've

36:18

been challenged. Guys like

36:20

a challenge, guys like hurdles, guys

36:23

are into the pursuit and you laying

36:26

things out, you laying your cards on the table in the

36:28

way you have is going to inspire

36:31

some of those guys who may have run in the

36:33

opposite direction if you'd said, I want a boyfriend and

36:35

a husband, a kid, a family, a commitment to

36:37

come chasing after you because if they

36:39

can land you, well, what does

36:42

that say about how hot and desirable they

36:44

are that you let go of everything you

36:46

said that you wanted or told them you

36:48

didn't want for them? You

36:51

know, a lot of our... the way we

36:54

function romantically sexually in the world, it's hard

36:57

to completely separate out

37:01

ego and the

37:03

affirmation that we may be seeking about our

37:06

desirability or marketability

37:09

in our relationships and we have to be

37:12

conscious of it and careful of it that we're not pursuing

37:15

someone because... for shitty

37:18

reasons, for egotistical reasons and

37:22

that may be what's going on with these guys. What

37:24

can you do differently? Nothing. Don't do anything differently. Keep

37:26

telling guys the truth and if some

37:28

guy is too clingy, like shut him down.

37:30

Don't see him again. You said

37:32

I want X and they're like, here,

37:35

here's Y. You say, okay, not

37:37

what I wanted and not

37:39

going to make time for you again, going to

37:41

go find some guys who want what I want,

37:43

which is not a commitment and to see them

37:45

every couple of weeks and have some great sex

37:48

and hang out, experience some intimacy but not intimacy

37:50

that's bundled with commitment and hurtling

37:53

toward that relationship escalator. All

37:55

right. Before we get to this week's listener response calls,

37:57

I want to share a couple of listener comments. about

38:00

last week's show posted at savage.love.

38:02

Says by Dan Fan,

38:05

in your advice to the British backpacker

38:07

thinking about breaking up with his girlfriend

38:09

at home after cheating on her, Dan,

38:11

you should have specified, do not tell

38:13

her you cheated. It's bad enough to

38:15

hear I'm dumping you. There's no need

38:17

for him to make it

38:19

worse. Otherwise, great advice. And I also loved

38:22

Ring It or Fling It. Yes, Ring It

38:24

or Fling It is genius.

38:26

Of course that backpacker shouldn't

38:28

tell his girlfriend if he cheated. She'll

38:30

know something happened. She'll know something changed. She doesn't

38:32

need to know that. Says

38:35

David A. Boy

38:37

sober is a good term.

38:40

If you wanna make it more activist though,

38:42

why not go with boy caught? Okay,

38:45

boy caught, pretty clever, but

38:47

still I prefer boy sober

38:49

to boy caught because boy

38:51

sober implicitly acknowledges that

38:53

boys are intoxicating and

38:55

can be hard to quit. Finally,

38:58

says Adrian to the newly kinky guy who

39:00

is trying to be upfront about his kinks

39:02

and vanilla dating apps, okay Cupid

39:04

has tons of questions about kink. Just

39:07

answer a bunch of those and your

39:09

match percentage and admittedly flawed calculation will

39:12

increase. But moreover, you can scan

39:14

people's answers for compatible or

39:16

incompatible responses, including to the

39:18

kink questions. Also totally agree with Dan

39:20

that it is not a crime to

39:23

just meet some folks and see what

39:25

happens. That's dating. Now I wanna

39:27

emphasize once again, it is

39:29

fine for kinky people to date people

39:31

they assume perhaps incorrectly are vanilla because

39:34

they didn't meet it a month or whatever.

39:36

I live for those moments. I love those

39:38

stories where two people lay their kink cards on

39:40

the table at the same time and they turn out to be

39:42

the same cards.

39:45

It happens, it doesn't happen often. When it

39:47

does happen, I wanna hear

39:49

about it. And thanks to everyone

39:52

who I heard from this week letting me

39:54

know that contrami assertion construct

39:56

did not enter the English language when it came out

39:59

of Nicholas Holt's very... Pretty Mouth in 2018's The

40:01

Favorite. For

40:03

more on the history of that word, construct,

40:06

you wanna check out last

40:08

week's struggle session. Struggle session, it's a

40:11

weekly bonus column for Magnum Subs, goes

40:13

up every Thursday at

40:15

savage.love, and it is where you will

40:17

find the Muppet-Faced Man

40:20

of the Week. All right, now

40:22

onto listener response calls.

40:25

Great rant at the top of the show today, Dan, but

40:27

I think you need to make the point that it's even

40:29

stronger, but it's not just deadly

40:32

consequences that the Republicans or

40:34

the religious extremists are hoping for. It's

40:36

deadly consequences of sex for

40:39

women, not for men. Even gay

40:41

men, I'm sure they're gonna come up

40:43

to them in their own different way, but gay

40:45

men don't die in childbirth, they don't die

40:47

trying to obtain an abortion. This

40:50

is about shaming women, controlling women,

40:52

owning women, getting women out of

40:54

the workforce, and

40:56

returning them to the, only the domestic sphere.

40:59

This is not just a fear or a

41:01

hatred of sex, although yes, it's that too.

41:03

It is primarily, it is grounded in rank

41:06

misogynism. And I wish that

41:09

you would just make that point a little more

41:11

clear, because I don't think enough people are getting

41:13

it. Hi, Dan,

41:15

I was just listening to your

41:17

take on watching the Super Bowl

41:19

and male meeting affection

41:21

or touch or something, and I gotta

41:24

tell you, your take is so wrong,

41:27

it's ridiculous. I think

41:29

some straight men enjoy sports because they grow

41:31

up watching them and they grow up playing

41:33

them and they enjoy the competition and we

41:35

don't get to do that as adults anymore.

41:37

Our bodies don't last as long

41:39

and it's not about getting hugs or

41:41

high fives or anything, it's about something

41:44

we just enjoy doing and enjoy watching and

41:46

we can do it with each other. And

41:48

yeah, it's oftentimes male

41:50

company, so it's a good

41:52

way for us to spend time with our

41:55

friends, but other than that, it has nothing

41:57

to do with getting hugs or being touched.

42:00

just off the line. Hi

42:02

Dan, I'm calling about episode 905 with

42:05

the daughter's concerns about her father dating

42:07

a much younger woman that was homeless before

42:09

they met. I definitely agree with

42:11

Dan that this looks like a mutually beneficial

42:13

relationship for her father and this woman, although

42:16

I might be biased because this is exactly what

42:18

my late father and his second wife had. As

42:20

much as we didn't and still don't care for

42:23

my father's wife, my sister and I almost breathed

42:25

a sigh of relief when the impending burden of

42:27

helping my dad, as he got older

42:29

and sicker, was relieved from us. The

42:31

last couple of years before my father's death

42:33

were a myriad of doctors appointments and hospital

42:35

stays, particularly during COVID, and she was there

42:37

for my dad every step of the way

42:39

and my sister and I never had to

42:41

come into town to take care of my father. I

42:44

was very lucky in that my father was

42:46

a frugal, financially literate, and upper middle class

42:48

person so he proactively set up and gave

42:50

me copies of his will so there were

42:53

no surprises upon his death. I

42:55

would recommend exactly what Dan is saying

42:57

to do in terms of reaching out

43:00

to him more and trying to get more

43:02

information and being curious and things like that

43:05

because that advice is what

43:07

made accepting my father's wife doable for my

43:09

sister and I. And

43:13

we're going to leave it there.

43:15

We've got three ways for you to get

43:17

us your question or your comment for a

43:20

future show. You can record your question or

43:22

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43:30

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43:33

and leave us a message at 206-302-2064.

43:39

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and Portland. I will be hosting shows

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me in person. Come see Hump

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Then Hump is on to Albuquerque, Madison,

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44:37

the Savage Lovecast. Thank you for having me. you