0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

The Savage Lovecast at savage.love. Hey

0:23

everybody, Nancy is away this week. I'm

0:25

away this week, but we have got

0:27

a full show ready for you.

0:30

Going to be a short intro though, three things I wanted

0:32

to quickly mention before you get to your questions. Thing

0:35

number one, last week Louisiana became

0:37

the first state to criminalize the

0:39

possession of mifepristone and

0:41

misoprostol, the abortion medications I can

0:44

barely pronounce. Now anyone

0:46

in Louisiana caught with M&Ms without

0:48

a prescription faces thousands of dollars

0:50

in fines and up to five

0:52

years in prison. And

0:54

pregnant women of course in Louisiana can't

0:56

get a prescription because abortion is illegal

0:58

in that state in all cases, including

1:01

rape and incest. Pregnant

1:03

women caught with the drug or pregnant

1:06

women who took the drug are exempt

1:08

from punishment. They can't be fined or

1:10

imprisoned because as the New

1:12

York Times grimly notes, most abortion

1:14

bans and restrictions do not punish

1:16

pregnant women because most voters oppose

1:19

doing so. So it's

1:21

really people who took my advice in Louisiana

1:23

who are at risk. My advice of course

1:25

was to order these pills, stock up, keep

1:28

them on hand. They have a shelf life

1:30

of two to five years.

1:32

They're safe and effective for self-administered abortions.

1:34

And if you're one of the very

1:36

rare women who have complications after taking

1:39

them, M&M induced abortions are

1:41

indistinguishable from miscarriages. So you do

1:43

not have to disclose that you

1:45

took these medications if

1:47

you should wind up in the ER,

1:49

which is extremely unlikely. Sexually

1:52

active people who are sexually active with opposite

1:54

sex partners and the people who love them

1:56

should keep these meds handy in the same

1:59

way people should keep emergency contraception

2:01

handy. But anyone who does so now,

2:03

anybody who keeps these meds on hand,

2:05

could wind up in prison if, say,

2:07

a shitty one-night stand

2:09

or an even shittier ex

2:12

or an even shittier relative

2:15

finds out they have these meds and turns them

2:18

in. So, aunts and moms

2:20

and best friends are going to wind up in

2:22

prison, as will women who aren't

2:24

pregnant but ordered the pills online in case they

2:26

might need them at some point, which

2:28

is still legal to do. You can still order

2:30

these pills online and have them shipped in Louisiana.

2:33

You just don't want to get caught

2:35

with them by the cops

2:37

in Louisiana. Man, if

2:39

Republicans thought abortion bans were unpopular with

2:41

voters, and they are, as Republicans have

2:43

learned over the last couple of years,

2:46

wait until they get a load

2:48

of how voters feel about seeing

2:50

their aunts and best friends and

2:53

gunkles getting arrested. Thing number two on

2:55

my list of things I wanted to quickly touch on at

2:57

the top of the show this week goes out to my

2:59

fellow homos. Right after you

3:01

go to plancpills.org to stock up

3:03

on M&Ms yourself in case your

3:05

favorite niece or best friend from

3:07

work or a little sister ever needs them, go

3:11

get your ass vaccinated against

3:13

monkeypox or mpox, the virus

3:15

formerly known as monkeypox.

3:17

There has been a big uptick in

3:19

cases in the US over the last

3:21

six months among men who didn't get

3:24

vaccinated during the 2022 outbreak or only

3:26

got one shot of

3:28

the two-shot monkeypox regimen. If

3:31

you are one of the one in four gay

3:33

and bi men who didn't get vaccinated, get

3:36

your gay ass fully vaccinated now.

3:38

If you only got the first

3:40

shot, go get the second. The

3:43

CDC is raising the alarm about

3:45

monkeypox, not just because we're seeing an uptick

3:48

right now of the monkeypox strain

3:50

that caused men to experience painful

3:53

and sometimes disfiguring outbreaks of sores

3:55

on their rear ends, genitals and

3:57

faces, but because there is a

3:59

new strain of monkeypox raging

4:01

right now in the Democratic Republic

4:03

of Congo that's far deadlier and

4:06

more dangerous. If that

4:08

new strain, which can, like the

4:10

previous one, be sexually transmitted, if

4:13

that new strain should find its way

4:15

to Folsom or board your next gay

4:17

cruise, we are in for a

4:19

world of hurt. The 2022 strain

4:22

had a very low fatality rate. There

4:24

were 30,000 cases roughly in

4:26

the United States and 42 deaths

4:28

in the 12 months after the outbreak began.

4:31

That's a fatality rate of 0.001%. The

4:35

new strain everyone is worried about has a

4:37

fatality rate of 5%. A similarly

4:40

sized outbreak of the new strain in

4:43

North America could lead to

4:45

hundreds or even thousands of deaths.

4:48

Now, I don't want to be needlessly alarmist.

4:50

We would probably see a lower death rate

4:52

here than in the Democratic Republic

4:55

of Congo if this new strain found its

4:57

way over. Probably. I mean,

4:59

we have a shitty but functioning healthcare

5:01

system. So 5%, probably

5:03

a worst case scenario. But

5:06

do we want to fuck around and find out? We

5:08

do not. We want to fuck around. Yes, we

5:10

do. And we can fuck

5:13

around without finding out exactly how lethal

5:15

this new strain of monkeypox might be

5:17

if it got here, if everyone who's

5:20

at risk, gay men, bi men, men

5:22

who have sex with men who do not identify as

5:24

gay or bi went and got

5:26

vaccinated. All right, quickly, thing number three, the

5:28

hump 2024 part one spring

5:31

tour wraps up this weekend with

5:33

shows in Nashville, Minneapolis and Austin.

5:35

And for folks who couldn't join

5:37

us in the theaters for hump

5:39

2024 part one, it will be

5:41

streaming online after June 3rd for

5:43

tickets to a screening in any

5:45

of those three cities this weekend

5:47

or to get streaming passes after

5:50

June 3rd. Go to humphilmfest.com and

5:52

hey, this is your chance British

5:54

Columbians to see the film government

5:57

censors in your province didn't want you

5:59

to see. And hump 2024

6:01

part 2 which is 25 brand new hump

6:03

films premieres in Portland in Seattle in September

6:05

before heading out on Tour.

6:08

All right coming up on the micro tons

6:10

of your cues lots of my A's and

6:12

joining me on the Magnum Dr. Evan Goldstein

6:14

returns to talk about his new book his

6:17

first book But seriously the definitive

6:19

guide to anal health pleasure and everything

6:21

in between I talked to dr. Goldstein

6:24

about course anal pleasure and health I

6:26

also talked to dr. Evan Goldstein about

6:28

how he got into doctoring

6:30

buttholes in Specific and then dr. Goldstein

6:32

sticks around to take a couple of

6:35

sex questions with me to hear my

6:37

interview. Dr Goldstein become a Magnum sub

6:39

now at savage dot love Alright,

6:42

if you're already a Magnum sub show starts now

6:44

if you are not yet a Magnum sub You

6:46

got to listen to a few ads and then

6:48

we start the show Dan

6:53

oh my god. Hi, so here's the deal.

6:55

I did some Sucks

6:58

work in my early 20s and I am considering

7:02

getting back into sugar

7:04

babying now and I

7:07

have two questions that are kind of related

7:10

The first one is back in the day. I used

7:12

to use a site called sinking calm It

7:15

still exists, but it seems like it

7:17

is a lot of scammers now Wondering

7:20

if you or any callers know

7:22

some good platforms that

7:25

are a little less scammy Second question is

7:27

I Really

7:29

don't know if this is going to be realistic

7:31

impossible But I want to let you know what

7:33

it is that I am hoping To

7:36

offer people I guess basically

7:38

the things that I'm interested in

7:41

willing to trade for money are time

7:44

attention flirtation if there's

7:46

somebody that is Super

7:49

shy and needs to build their sexual

7:52

confidence. There's somebody that needs a confidant

7:55

I'd be happy to talk to people about

7:57

King and even explore, you know explore

8:00

some light kink with folks. When it comes

8:02

to sex, I am genuinely

8:04

not interested in promising

8:07

my pussy if anyone presents. That

8:10

said, I'm open to it if

8:13

there's actual chemistry and trust, in

8:15

addition to the financial exchange, but

8:17

that one would have to come, that one would

8:19

have to come with time. And truthfully, I could

8:23

see it being a huge turn on for someone

8:25

to be spending on me, that in

8:27

a way that would make me more likely to want

8:29

to sleep with them. But I am

8:32

because, honestly, because of some

8:34

of my traumatic experiences with sex

8:36

work as a young person, I'm

8:38

not trying to recreate a situation where, you

8:41

know, I feel like I have to put someone in. So

8:45

does that sound even vaguely

8:47

realistic? And if it does,

8:49

how would you put that in an ad? I

8:51

don't know what the best platform is for people

8:53

who are interested in being sugar

8:56

babies or hiring

8:58

sugar babies. So I'm going to toss

9:00

that question out to the

9:02

listeners. If anybody out there has some

9:04

idea, has some recommendation, what

9:07

is the sugar baby platform of

9:10

the moment where people aren't being

9:12

creepy and it's not weird? Ask

9:15

your question. All right, so you

9:17

don't want to have sex or you

9:20

don't want the expectation of anybody who

9:22

might hire you basically as a paid

9:25

companion. That's kind of what you're offering

9:27

here, paid companionship. And you don't want

9:29

someone to come in with the expectation

9:31

that you're going to fuck

9:33

them. Now, most people who hire

9:35

sugar babies, who pay sugar baby

9:37

rates, are expecting a

9:39

kind of transactional girlfriend experience that

9:42

does include, also sometimes

9:44

a boyfriend experience, that does

9:46

include sex. So sex

9:49

isn't something that you want the other person to

9:51

expect. Sex is a place you might be willing

9:54

to go if the chemistry is

9:56

there. So put that, I wouldn't put that

9:58

in your ad actually. Well, you should. put

10:00

in your ad is no sex, paid

10:03

companionship, dates, hanging

10:06

out, flirting, time, attention. You

10:08

can practice your game with

10:10

me and I will

10:12

give you feedback and I will lavish you

10:15

with affection and attention, but no

10:18

sex. What you want to do is set

10:21

their expectations ad, no sex,

10:23

so that they're not pressuring you, not trying

10:26

to get into your pants. And then if you decide

10:29

that this person who's paying

10:31

you is somebody that you might want

10:33

to fuck, if the chemistry is there,

10:36

then you can pleasantly surprise them by

10:38

offering to fuck them.

10:40

Now, most people who go to

10:42

sugar baby websites are seeking

10:44

sex. So

10:46

you probably get less bites, you'll get

10:49

less interest than women who are offering,

10:52

men who are offering the full sugar baby

10:54

transactional affection, boyfriend,

10:56

girlfriend experience thing, including sex.

11:00

But considering your history in sex

11:02

work, the trauma that you talk about in

11:05

your past experiences doing sex work,

11:07

which sounds like they were

11:09

rooted in the expectations that your clients

11:12

had of you, fewer

11:14

offers might be better and waiting for

11:16

the right offer from the right guy

11:18

who is mostly

11:21

after the girlfriend experience and not

11:24

after the sexual experience. It

11:26

wants the dating, wants you to be a paid

11:30

companion, which is a thing that some people

11:32

do want. Waiting for

11:34

those rare bites would be

11:36

better than a lot of bites from

11:38

guys whose expectations

11:41

are going to feel for you like pressure,

11:43

pressure to engage in sexual acts that you

11:45

don't want to engage in. So in your

11:47

ad, take sex off the table. Sex is

11:49

not going to happen. Be

11:52

explicit about that. And

11:54

then again, if you decide to go there, if they're

11:56

paying you and you're into them, the chemistry is right,

11:58

maybe part of what. Peeks your sexual interest

12:01

in them is the fact that they are paying and

12:03

that turns you on and that does

12:05

turn some people on And

12:07

you want to fuck them You

12:10

can say so and they can be

12:12

pleasantly surprised rather than waiting

12:14

around Hey, Dan

12:17

Cisgender gay man coming to you

12:20

from Brooklyn, New York. I

12:22

got reacquainted with the podcast about a

12:24

year ago When a

12:26

buddy of mine was waxing poetic

12:28

about the GGG in my backyard

12:32

I've enjoyed your podcast a good bit

12:34

since then and have really taken note

12:36

of your quiet

12:39

advocacy for polyamory

12:41

and ethical non-monogamy within the podcast

12:43

even your commercials You know tout

12:45

a little bit about you know

12:47

your husband and your boyfriend and

12:49

his boyfriend and that seems so

12:51

wonderful But as a

12:53

man on the ground here who's single and trying to

12:55

figure out my life here at age 54 I've

12:59

yet to really meet in real life anybody who's

13:01

made the poly thing work. I Couple

13:05

years ago fell madly in love with

13:07

married poly man He

13:09

seemed to have it all together knew what he

13:12

was doing. I met the husband you

13:14

know hung out with them and I

13:16

really thought we were building something and Then

13:20

when my feelings got to be a little too strong It

13:23

was over Exact same thing

13:25

happened to a female friend of mine when

13:27

she tried to date a married poly man

13:30

now more recently I was in a situation where

13:32

I met a married couple and one

13:34

of them really kind of Self from

13:36

me really quickly and when I

13:38

asked about their status where they open were

13:40

they poly whatever it opened this

13:42

whole big Thing within

13:44

their marriage that they then had

13:46

to address and became a real

13:49

problem for them and just that

13:51

Simple shift from open to poly was not

13:53

something they could do and me

13:56

just kind of suggesting it created a problem

14:00

So my question here for you, Dan, my

14:02

friend is, what's the

14:04

GGG of polyamory? What's the

14:06

simple, easy to remember set

14:08

of rules for

14:11

someone intrigued by this relationship

14:14

style to approach it?

14:17

My advocacy for polyamory and ethical non-monogamy

14:20

has been called a lot of things.

14:22

But quiet? I don't think it's been

14:24

quiet. My advocacy for polyamory

14:27

and ethical non-monogamy and my

14:30

advocacy every once in a while

14:32

for not exactly ethical non-monogamy has

14:35

been loud and long,

14:37

cacophonous. All

14:40

right. You want to know whether

14:42

or not polyamory,

14:44

triad relationships, truffles, I think that's what you're

14:46

interested in. If those ever work,

14:49

define work. Too often when it comes

14:52

to relationships, we define work as somebody's

14:54

dead. Two people

14:56

together married. One dies.

14:58

The relationship is a success. Two

15:01

people together, they part, they

15:03

divorce, they separate. That

15:05

relationship was a failure. So

15:07

you were involved with a couple for a

15:10

while and you thought

15:12

you were building something great and then suddenly it

15:14

was over. Well, if you'd got run

15:16

over by a bus the day before

15:18

that relationship ended, while you still thought

15:21

it was working great, you would have

15:23

gone to your grave thinking that that

15:25

relationship, quote unquote, worked,

15:28

worked out because nobody

15:31

got dumped because it didn't end

15:34

with everybody getting out of it alive. It ended

15:36

because somebody wound up in

15:39

a box at a funeral home. I think that's a

15:41

perverse definition of a relationship working out. And they give

15:43

two or more people are together for a while and

15:46

they lived and they laughed and they loved and

15:48

they learned and they grew and then they parted

15:50

even if the parting was bumpy and

15:53

they can be friends or even if

15:55

they can't be friends and that's not

15:57

always possible. They remember the relationship fondly.

15:59

I think that. relationship even if it

16:01

didn't last until somebody was dead or everybody

16:03

was dead. I think that relationship worked.

16:07

Okay, all that said, the shift from

16:09

open to poly, that can be very

16:12

bumpy. The shift from monogamous to open

16:14

can be very bumpy. It's often the

16:16

case that one person wants to open

16:19

the relationship and they have to have

16:21

a kind of relationship extinction level event

16:24

risk conversation with

16:26

their partner about opening the relationship

16:29

and the partner may agree to open the

16:31

relationship, to save the relationship and agree reluctantly

16:33

to open the relationship and for

16:35

a while, you know, it's

16:38

very fraught and then that couple grows

16:40

into an open

16:42

relationship that both

16:44

partners are happy to be in and sometimes

16:46

they even forget whose idea it was in

16:48

the first place. The

16:51

same basic

16:54

sort of steps often play out when

16:56

a couple in an

16:58

open relationship makes the transition

17:00

sometimes rocky from open to poly.

17:03

One person has been hooking up

17:05

regularly with someone else and is

17:07

catching feelings or the person that they're

17:09

with no longer

17:11

is satisfied being just, you

17:14

know, relegated to some meaningless

17:16

limbo state where they can't have a

17:18

word like boyfriend attached to them

17:20

because it's a threat and yet they function

17:22

in the life of the person if they're only dating

17:25

what half of the couple that they're seeing as a

17:27

boyfriend. They want the gong, they

17:29

want the honorific, they want the OBE,

17:31

they want boyfriend and

17:34

then just like one person had to go to the other

17:36

person and broach the subject of openness, one person has to

17:39

go to the other person that in

17:41

the primary relationship, the person who's dealing, they

17:43

can't take for granted, who matters to the

17:45

most in the world and

17:47

say to them, hey, so-and-so

17:50

is more than just a

17:52

friend with benefits, a piece on the side, a cum

17:55

dump, so-and-so is

17:57

my boyfriend? Yeah, and

17:59

that can get lumpy

18:02

and the couple may decide to close

18:04

the relationship back up and maybe that's

18:06

what happened to you. And

18:09

what does that mean? Does that mean

18:12

polyamorous relationships never work out? No, not

18:14

necessarily, but if you're entering into

18:16

open relationships and hoping to progress

18:19

to polyamorous relationship where you're one-third of

18:21

the threatful, all right, you may have

18:23

unrealistic expectations about that difficult transition that

18:26

you're asking that couple to make. You

18:28

have the option of seeking out couples

18:30

who are already open to polyamory, who

18:33

have some experience with polyamory, and they're

18:36

out there. But if you're just, you

18:38

know, dating guys, hooking up with

18:40

guys, being FWBs for guys who

18:43

have husbands at home where

18:45

sex with others is allowed but an emotional

18:47

connection is going to be regarded as a

18:50

threat, yeah, most of those relationships unlikely

18:53

to work out. But

18:55

GGG for polyamory, I would say GGG

18:57

for polyamory is just like GGG for

19:00

monogamy. Be good-giving-in-game,

19:02

be considerate, be kind, don't take

19:05

people for granted, use your words,

19:07

it all applies. The

19:09

other thing I think may be going on

19:11

here is a certain amount of confirmation bias.

19:13

When it comes to polyamory, open relationships,

19:15

if it doesn't work out, everybody goes,

19:17

oh yeah, those polyamorous, those

19:19

open relationships, they never work out.

19:21

And when it comes to monogamy,

19:23

when the relationship doesn't work out,

19:26

nobody says, except for me, every

19:28

once in a while, maybe monogamy

19:30

was the problem, maybe opening that

19:32

relationship could have saved that relationship.

19:34

When a monogamous relationship doesn't work,

19:36

when it fails, people

19:39

fault the individuals involved,

19:42

if only to say that they weren't right

19:44

for each other and no one's to blame,

19:46

but it didn't work out because these two

19:48

people weren't right for each other. But when

19:51

a polyamorous relationship, three people, when that comes

19:53

to shit, people go, oh yeah, polyamory, never

19:55

works out. If you

19:58

want to be in a polyamorous relationship, If

20:00

you want to be some couple's hot third,

20:03

you might want

20:05

to examine your

20:07

investment in that particular kind of confirmation

20:10

bias where polyamory is concerned because you're

20:12

not going to want to carry that

20:14

bias into any polyamorous relationship

20:16

that you're in because it

20:19

will undermine it. It

20:21

will sabotage it. Your

20:23

sex life is important. People don't get that

20:26

message enough. I've made it my mission in

20:28

life to deliver that message again

20:30

and again as loudly as I possibly

20:32

can in every possible way. Your

20:35

sex life is important. But if

20:37

you have erectile dysfunction, you might not be

20:39

prioritizing getting medication to treat

20:42

it and you should because say it

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Price varies based on product and

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subscription plan. Hi

22:04

Dan, I'm an early 40s female

22:07

in a relationship with a man in his early 50s. We've

22:10

been dating for about a year and living together

22:12

for 10 months and it has been an

22:15

incredibly rocky and stressful relationship. Lots

22:17

of fighting, lots

22:19

of verbal abuse, and just lots of

22:21

trauma and pain both from the relationship

22:24

and hangovers from both our childhoods. But

22:26

throughout all the fighting and chaos, we

22:28

did have great sex, which

22:30

kept us connected even when we were fighting and

22:33

kind of on the verge of breaking up. But now

22:37

the last couple months things have been calmer,

22:39

more emotionally stable, no

22:41

more verbal abuse, and he now has

22:43

no libido. We haven't had regular sex for

22:45

over four months. He has turned me down for

22:47

sex so many times that I've just

22:49

stopped turning. And so after

22:52

all we've been through and after the way

22:54

he has treated me, I'm just feeling so

22:56

undesired, unloved, and

22:58

really, really frustrated. I mean, this

23:01

is coming off of the heels also

23:03

of a 10-year marriage on my part

23:05

where I had just bad sex for

23:07

10 years and I'm just

23:09

feeling so frustrated and sad. I just

23:12

really want to have a good sex life, especially

23:14

while I'm feeling so energized and passionate

23:16

and alive. I know he's

23:18

getting to an age where hormones are going to affect

23:21

his sex drive. So I want to be sensitive

23:23

understanding, especially because I know that's going to happen

23:25

to me one day. But I'm

23:27

also just dying for sex and I'm

23:29

feeling just less intimately connected to him

23:31

as the weeks go by. And it's so hard to

23:33

talk to him about it because he's really not able

23:35

to be empathetic to how this is affecting me. He

23:39

really struggles to talk about it and

23:41

gets mad at me when

23:43

I express any struggle about it

23:45

myself. Dumping him over this feels harsh, but

23:47

I also realize it's not just about the

23:49

lack of sex now, but certainly about all

23:52

that came before it. So just right now

23:54

I'm trying to figure out where should I

23:56

draw the line between staying in this

23:59

or... between being supportive and hopeful that

24:01

he can figure this out because he is trying.

24:03

I know he's trying and I know he does

24:05

want his libido back. But between

24:08

that and then making my sexual needs

24:10

a priority, can I do both somehow

24:12

without dumping him? For

24:15

what it's worth, I really can't see him

24:17

ever being okay with an open relationship. So

24:19

I don't think that that's even an issue

24:21

to consider. On no

24:23

planet, in no timeline, was

24:25

I going to recommend to you opening

24:27

this relationship to save

24:29

it. Fuck this relationship.

24:32

Verbally abusive, stressful,

24:34

lots of fighting. You can't even

24:36

talk with him about

24:39

this very important issue. Lady,

24:42

even if the sex was great, even if he

24:44

was nailing you on the regular and pounding it

24:46

out and it was awesome, I would be telling

24:48

you to get the fuck out of this relationship.

24:51

You've been with him for a year. You moved in 10 months

24:54

ago. That means you moved in after

24:56

dating this person for eight weeks,

25:00

which is a foolish thing to

25:02

do as you now know.

25:04

As I would have told you if you'd called

25:06

me 10 months and

25:08

two weeks ago, I would have told

25:11

you not to move in with this person yet

25:13

because at eight weeks or six weeks you barely

25:15

know someone. I'm not blaming you,

25:17

not blaming the victim. He's

25:20

an asshole. He is not

25:22

a nice person. He has

25:24

treated you badly and

25:26

you should end this relationship. Even

25:30

if the relationship was low

25:32

conflict and you still enjoyed each other's company,

25:35

it is perfectly legitimate to end

25:38

a sexual and romantic relationship, especially

25:40

a sexually exclusive one, if the

25:43

sex isn't there. If you

25:45

aren't sexually compatible, if you aren't sexually

25:48

satisfied, you are not obligated

25:51

to stay because sex is somehow

25:53

trivial. And as I've

25:55

said a million times before, sex is so

25:58

trivial and so unimportant that you can't end

26:00

a relationship because the sex isn't good.

26:02

Why is sex so important that you

26:04

can't do it with anybody else if

26:06

you're in a relationship? Which is

26:09

not me advocating to you

26:11

to try to open this relationship, to get

26:13

your sexual needs met elsewhere. I want you

26:16

out of this relationship. It does not

26:19

sound like a good or fulfilling

26:22

relationship. You were

26:24

describing your experiences over the last 10

26:27

months since you moved in together and your

26:29

voice was trembling, sounded

26:32

like you were going to cry. Then

26:34

you get to sex, also a problem,

26:36

not the real problem. The real problem is the mistake

26:40

you made. The real problem

26:42

is him, that he is not good

26:44

or kind. And the

26:47

longer you let prioritizing

26:49

his feelings, his insecurities over

26:51

your own desires and

26:54

your own right to be in a loving

26:56

relationship or the kind and supportive,

26:59

if imperfect, partner, the longer you

27:01

prioritize his feelings, the

27:03

longer this is gonna drag out, then

27:05

you're gonna get into that sunk cost

27:07

fallacy corner where you let it

27:09

go on for another year and then you're like, well,

27:12

I can't leave this relationship even though the sex isn't

27:14

working and I'm unsatisfied, even though

27:16

he is an asshole, I can't leave this

27:18

relationship because I've already invested two years in

27:20

it and now I'm in my mid-40s. And

27:24

so, ah, no. End

27:27

it now. This

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and use the And for queued.

29:00

Get an my situation. At

29:03

that my A Partners.

29:05

Eleven. Year old son who lives

29:08

with us that is that he

29:10

had and stealing my underwear. And

29:13

it's given me a complex about.

29:16

The. Fact. That

29:18

I have with my boyfriend

29:20

be and now I'm afraid

29:23

and. His son

29:25

overhearing as or it even just

29:27

thinking about it and hi I'm

29:30

had of just as he puts

29:32

out about the whole thing. And

29:35

that wondering if you had

29:37

a get ironed. Out

29:40

will get out of my head about it. I

29:43

understand that to and they're not with

29:45

us and we can you know be

29:47

together? But also you

29:49

know sometimes when we are with

29:52

inside one of my boyfriend Brenda.

29:55

It's almost as if when we grew

29:57

up with. Stuff. Down the memory

29:59

hole. all these awkward realizations

30:02

or early childhood

30:04

experiences where we as adults forget,

30:06

you know, how creepy and weird

30:09

kids can be as they're hitting

30:11

puberty and becoming, you know,

30:14

developing a kink or

30:16

developing some sort of sexual

30:19

awareness of the adults and what they're doing

30:21

around them. And that can be squicky for

30:23

all involved, but it's temporary. 11

30:26

now. A few years go by

30:28

and will be over less. And in

30:30

your house less and in your face less than

30:33

an 11 year old. And you'll have

30:35

more privacy and more time and more

30:37

distance literally physically, emotionally from this kid

30:39

than you're able to do now. And

30:41

the fact that this kid is stealing your underwear and

30:44

violating your privacy and kind

30:47

of a bank shop way, making you

30:49

aware of the fact this kid is having

30:51

sexual thoughts that either involve you

30:54

or that the underwear is symbolic of

30:56

you or the underwear is just women's

30:58

underwear and he's fascinated by it or wants to

31:00

wear it or wants to touch it. And it's

31:03

irrelevant that it's yours. You're

31:05

just the most convenient source. It's

31:08

squeaky to think about that shit. But like there are,

31:11

you know, adults out there, adult men out there who

31:14

have enormous panty collections or panty

31:16

fetishes or a cross dressers. And

31:18

those adults had early childhood experiences

31:20

and did shit in childhood

31:24

that adults around them were

31:27

aware of and turned a blind eye to or

31:29

adults around them were aware of or made

31:31

aware of and had to have an

31:33

awkward conversation and a little bit of

31:35

a confrontation with the kid about what

31:37

is appropriate and what is not appropriate

31:39

and boundaries and respect. And I

31:42

think that's the conversation that not you,

31:44

that's the conversation that this kid's

31:46

father needs to have with this

31:48

kid. You know what you know, and you

31:50

know what he's done and he needs

31:52

to know that what he's done is not okay.

31:55

And that this kind of behavior, if he continues

31:57

to do it, like literally in some places could

31:59

land him on a sex offender registry. And so,

32:03

which I think is crazy, but you

32:05

don't want this obsession with

32:07

getting his hands on through

32:09

deceit, women's underwear to not

32:13

be checked. And not be checked, I think, in some

32:15

ways by a little bit of shame.

32:18

He may not be aware that you're aware

32:20

and knowing that you know could be

32:23

so mortifying to him that he never does

32:26

this to you, at least again.

32:28

And then in adulthood he assembles his piano collection

32:30

in a way that

32:32

doesn't violate anybody's privacy or a sense

32:34

of safety in their

32:36

own home. You know, maybe

32:39

right now he's stealing your underpants because

32:41

he has no way to get his hands on women's

32:43

underwear any other way. And you

32:46

know, when he's 17 and has an

32:48

Amazon gift card, he may be

32:50

able to order some on his own and not have

32:52

to be swiping

32:54

his father's girlfriend's underpants

32:58

like this. Your boyfriend

33:00

needs to talk to his son about

33:02

what he's doing and why it needs to stop

33:05

and stop right now. And then, you know,

33:07

how do you fuck the shit out of your boyfriend when the kids

33:09

are in the house? You try to forget

33:11

the kids are in the house? You try to find those

33:13

moments when the kids are with you but

33:15

not at home? You

33:17

raise free-range kids who are

33:20

allowed to be out of your

33:22

sight and not being supervised every

33:25

minute by their parents and the other

33:27

responsible adults in their life so that

33:29

you do have some alone time with

33:31

your boyfriend and you can fuck the shit out of him then.

33:34

And it's a blessing that he doesn't

33:36

have full-time custody and they don't live with you

33:38

seven days a week every week.

33:40

So you have plenty of time to fuck the shit out of

33:43

your boyfriend and then sometime when they're there, well maybe you don't

33:45

feel like fucking your boyfriend, you'll say fucking your boyfriend And

33:47

you can just let the erotic tension build and then fuck the shit

33:49

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saints me and you'll thank me

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later. A dead and

35:31

the crew bisexual guy in the Southeast

35:34

here in there to my wife for

35:36

about fifteen years and we've recently running

35:38

shoe an issue that is both a

35:40

marriage issue as sure they should all

35:43

wrapped up in the one thought. I

35:46

had an affair with a coworker about

35:48

twelve years ago. It was

35:50

on a brief affair. Whoa. Intercourse

35:52

that two or three weeks

35:54

long. Whole thing blew up

35:57

I told my wife. He.

35:59

affair partner told their spouse, we

36:02

told our shared employer, the whole

36:04

thing went sideways. And

36:06

we've been recovering ever since. Now,

36:08

my wife and I have had marriage

36:10

counseling, we've had individual therapy, we've

36:13

talked about it a lot, I've apologized a

36:15

lot, we've done many things to try and

36:17

bring healing to this issue from 12 years

36:19

ago. Well, we

36:21

have kids too. Our kids are

36:24

now 10 and 13. Well

36:26

recently we were watching a TV show and

36:29

there was a major plot point

36:32

about infidelity. My wife was

36:34

upset and uncomfortable. I

36:36

texted her and gave her

36:38

an acknowledgement of her pain over

36:40

text. I said, hey, if you want to take a

36:42

break from this, if you want to talk about it,

36:45

I'm here for you, just let me know. We can

36:47

talk. And we're watching

36:49

this with our children at our children's request. They

36:52

didn't know about all of the pain and all of

36:54

the baggage. Well, later on,

36:56

I thought I had

36:58

handled this right. I thought I had given her reassurance

37:01

and comfort discreetly. She

37:04

tells me that she thinks I need to be more open

37:06

with our kids and I should have paused

37:08

the show as a time for

37:11

dad to give us a life lesson on

37:13

his affair from 12 years ago that the kids

37:15

never would know about because again, they're 10 and

37:18

13. To

37:20

what extent do I owe my

37:23

kids to be enfranchised to my

37:25

life's biggest mistake, my biggest regret

37:27

in life? To what

37:29

extent are they supposed to be

37:31

exposed to that? And

37:34

how much should I open up to them about

37:36

that when I'd rather heal, move on and move

37:39

forward? I'm just lost here.

37:41

I really don't know what to think as

37:43

a parent and as somebody who has monumentally

37:45

screwed up in the past. Your

37:49

kids don't need to know about this to

37:51

no extent. Do your kids need to

37:53

know that you had an affair before

37:56

they were born and you and your wife

37:58

worked through it in counseling? No,

38:01

no, you don't need to tell your kids about

38:03

this, but you're gonna have to talk to your

38:05

kids about this because it seems that your wife

38:08

wants to talk to your kids about this

38:10

for reasons I think

38:12

you might need to unpack back in

38:15

couples counseling. Again, I would

38:17

hurry back to couples counseling

38:19

to discuss and unpack this

38:21

new issue. I

38:23

think you did the right thing. You're watching the

38:25

show in Fidelity at your kids request

38:27

with your kids when Fidelity comes up, it's a

38:29

plot point. And

38:31

at that moment

38:33

you discreetly texted your wife to check in to

38:35

see if she was okay. And

38:38

she complains that you didn't stop

38:40

the show and treat

38:42

it as a teachable moment where you could teach

38:44

your kids that you were a cheating piece of

38:47

shit. I imagine that

38:49

if you had stopped the show and

38:51

brought it up, your wife would have objected to

38:54

that too because I think your

38:56

wife has unresolved issues here. I

39:00

don't think actually you could have done

39:03

the right thing in that moment. Anything you could

39:05

have done, would have done, should have done in

39:07

that moment would have been the wrong thing. Because

39:09

what your wife wants is a reason, an

39:11

excuse to out you

39:13

to your kids as a cheating piece of shit, to

39:15

bring them, to bring your kids into

39:19

this part of your marriage where your

39:22

kids don't belong and

39:24

won't want to be. It's gonna complicate

39:27

their relationship with you in a

39:29

way that's not just unfair

39:31

to you, but unfair to them. They're

39:33

a little too young to understand how

39:37

complicated adult relationships can be. They're

39:40

also at 10 and 13 at this stage of life

39:44

where I think kids are particularly

39:46

vulnerable to marital

39:48

upheavals in their parents'

39:51

relationship. And you want your

39:53

kids to feel secure in

39:55

their family, in their home life, secure in... solidity

40:00

of their parents' marriage. And

40:02

they're not gonna feel that way if your

40:04

wife picks this moment to

40:07

out you as having once

40:09

committed adultery and then doing

40:12

everything right, seeking individual

40:14

therapy, seeking couples counseling, working through

40:17

this together, and choosing, your

40:19

wife, choosing to stay in

40:21

this marriage, not to stay in this marriage,

40:23

but have kids after the

40:26

infidelity and stay in

40:29

this marriage. And your wife needs to take

40:31

some responsibility for that choice. And

40:33

you can't, as the guilty party, in

40:36

the affair, spend

40:38

the rest of your life in the doghouse. Look,

40:42

something's up. Something's up

40:44

with your wife right now. She's having

40:47

big feelings and maybe

40:49

this moment where

40:52

it seemed that she was gonna weaponize

40:54

your relationship with your kids against

40:57

you for some reason that is

40:59

a mystery to me and probably a mystery to you

41:01

right now is just your wife demanding

41:04

some attention be paid and

41:06

that there were still

41:09

things you needed to unpack and process with

41:11

the help of a couples

41:14

counselor. If your wife decides

41:17

to tell your kids, that's

41:19

not something that you're gonna be able to control,

41:23

but at the very least, your wife owes you

41:25

a couple of conversations with a couples counselor

41:27

before she tells

41:30

your kids about the affair that you had

41:33

before they were born. Just

41:36

thinking about your question, thinking about your

41:38

predicament, this

41:40

seems like a long game

41:42

here. And there's some desire

41:46

for punishment that your wife still

41:48

has. She wants to inflict on you

41:51

now some additional penalty

41:54

that the affair that you had not only damaged

41:56

your relationship with her, but she

41:58

wants to ensure that you pay. pay

42:00

an even steeper price. And this affair

42:02

damages your relationship potentially with

42:05

your kids because they will

42:07

see you as the villain in this

42:09

piece now at 10

42:11

and 13. At

42:13

20 and 23, they might feel

42:16

differently. They might see your,

42:18

their mom having brought them into this

42:21

dispute for what it was,

42:24

which was the weaponization of the kids against one

42:26

parent by another parent, which is never okay. Whether

42:28

the parents are divorced or still together. Time

42:32

for a little listener feedback. First up, some

42:34

of the comments left on last week's show

42:36

in the very lively comment thread at savage.love.

42:39

Says, Ted the bellhop, I'm repeating

42:41

myself here, but I love it

42:43

when you get a comedian guest

42:46

star. Rachel Feinstein was great.

42:48

I agree, Rachel was great, such a great guest.

42:50

I had so much fun talking with her. And

42:52

if you liked her on the love cast, you're

42:54

gonna wanna watch her special up

42:56

now on Netflix, Big Guy. Regarding

42:59

the call from the woman who felt conflicted about

43:01

the relationship she had with a 24 year

43:03

old man when she was 18, Marsh

43:05

LC says, I was a very

43:08

sexually active teenager, mostly with men in their 20s.

43:10

Sometimes I was exploited. Sometimes I

43:13

was doing the exploiting. I

43:15

suspect that if the caller stops telling herself a

43:17

story about being groomed, she might see

43:19

that he was pretty young too. And

43:22

it was just a somewhat unhealthy early relationship

43:24

for both that is now

43:26

over. Something almost all of us

43:29

have experienced. About the caller

43:31

whose boyfriend was freaking out and shaming

43:33

her about her body count. Thingamajig

43:35

writes, I think it's a

43:38

big assumption that a guy who doesn't wanna

43:40

hear about his partner's body count is being

43:42

sexist. Hey, wouldn't it be fun and sexy

43:44

to tell each other about our past experiences

43:47

is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

43:50

But so is actually, it makes me

43:52

uncomfortable to think about you with another person.

43:55

Not Wanting to engage in a particular

43:57

form of erotic storytelling that his partner

43:59

likes. Is not all by

44:01

itself evidence of sexism? Well thing

44:03

imaging. I actually I do agree

44:05

with you that it's not always

44:07

evidence of sexism. is somebody got

44:09

comfortable having conversations with a new

44:11

partner about their past sexual experiences

44:14

or relationships. But in the case

44:16

of that callers partner, yeah, I

44:18

think it was fucking sexist and

44:20

I think he was fucking sexist.

44:22

All right. For more listener feedback,

44:24

check out Struggle Session where I

44:26

respond a listener and reader comments

44:28

goes up almost every Thursday. At

44:31

Savage.love and Now listener

44:33

response calls. It

44:36

an uncommon regarding the color feel

44:38

as the boy Francis says that

44:40

even recovery process that the didn't

44:42

want to hear about. History.

44:46

I have a different interpretation of

44:48

what's happening. Instead of either he

44:50

identifies as a sex addict or

44:52

he is a sexist, I think

44:54

that there's something kind of at

44:56

the same sex addiction. Sort.

44:59

Of identifies itself. With. Same

45:01

a lot of time and it's like.

45:04

I've noticed that a lot of us identify

45:07

a sex addict. Of

45:09

center seen around sexual history and sexual

45:11

autonomy is shame. I'm wondering if he

45:13

has has sexual experiences that bring up

45:15

a lot of same for him and

45:18

so identifying as a sex addict the

45:20

something that has helped him cope with

45:22

that shame or at least think he

45:25

copes with it. But the issue is

45:27

it sounds like you're projecting along the

45:29

that aren't as part and. It

45:32

can be threatening when you feel shame

45:34

and the person around you does not.

45:36

So I would say that they should

45:38

enter the couple's therapy and. See.

45:40

If they can talk about that, And.

45:43

Why? Hearing about for

45:45

sexual history activate his

45:47

feelings. Of say. hi

45:50

dan nancy and all i

45:52

am calling in response to

45:54

the lesbian mom is new

45:56

was lamenting how mother's day

45:59

ended up feeling for her and her

46:01

wife, I will say that what my

46:03

wife and I do is that she gets Mother's

46:05

Day, I get Father's Day. And what I mean

46:07

by that, kind of to Dan's

46:09

point, is not so much that we

46:11

make a big celebration out of either day as

46:13

much as we do a couple of small things.

46:16

I make my wife breakfast in bed on Mother's

46:18

Day traditionally, but I do that sometimes anyway. But

46:20

we know that she's going to get that that day. And then

46:23

on Father's Day, she might do that, she might

46:25

not have something small. But what we've

46:27

done as well that I think is actually maybe

46:29

part of what you're looking for is we tell

46:31

everyone else in our lives that that's kind of

46:34

how we do it. Whenever people bring it up or

46:36

we talk about it, we always say, Oh, yeah, she gets this

46:38

day, I get that day. And that way

46:40

on that day, I get texts from people saying I

46:42

know Father's Day is your day, Happy Father's Day. And

46:44

she gets texts saying Happy Mother's Day. And

46:47

we get you know, the recognition on the social

46:49

media and all that stuff. So it's actually

46:51

more about other people recognizing our

46:54

relationship to our kids and the

46:56

specialness of that, that we

46:58

ended up getting out of the day. And that

47:00

can be really gratifying. And that can be feel

47:02

really like normalizing and like a

47:05

like a celebration of our of our whole family,

47:07

as opposed to what Dan was saying

47:09

about like, making it sort of

47:11

a grandiose event. And I think caller

47:13

what I heard you saying was that you

47:16

had expectations of feeling of specialness. And I just

47:18

think that's a way to get that feeling. This

47:22

is a response to the discussion

47:25

about teabagging Dan, as

47:27

a fellow person who loves us discuss Greek

47:31

and French active and passive roles. I feel

47:33

like this discussion was a great time to

47:35

bring up a new role to do a

47:37

thing that you also have to do, which

47:39

is coin phrase, British

47:41

active and British passive. Because

47:44

what says more British than teabagging?

47:49

And we're going to leave it there. We've

47:51

got three ways for you to get your

47:54

questions or comments or future shows. You can

47:56

record your question at our website, savage.love.org. on

48:00

your phone and email us your question or

48:02

your comment to Q at savage.love or you

48:04

can call our landline and leave us a

48:06

message at 206-302-2064. We

48:10

will see you this weekend in national Minneapolis

48:13

and Austin for the closing shows of Hump

48:15

2024 Part 1's tour. Hump

48:18

2024 Part 2, 25 brand new

48:21

Hump Films premieres in Portland and Seattle in

48:23

September before heading out on tour. To

48:25

keep up with all things Hump, go to humpfilmfest.com

48:27

and to find out how to get your dirty

48:29

little masterpiece into the best dirty little

48:31

film festival in the world, go to

48:33

humpfilmfest.com and flash. Follow

48:36

me on Instagram and threads at Dan Savage, follow

48:38

me at Blue Sky at Dan Savage and I

48:40

am still on the bad place

48:42

at fake Dan Savage. Follow

48:45

Dr. Evan Goldstein on Instagram

48:47

and threads at dr.evangoldstein and

48:49

whether you're a butt stuff beginner or

48:52

a butt stuff expert you're going to

48:54

want to read Dr. Goldstein's new book,

48:56

Butt Seriously. The Savage Lovecast is produced

48:58

every week by Nancy Hertunian and

49:00

me and the tech savvy at risk youth and

49:02

Nancy will all be back at you next week

49:04

by installing the Savage Lovecast. Thank you as ever.