0:00

You're listening to the micro version of the Savage

0:02

Lovecast at savage.love.

0:05

If you're stuck in a relationship quandary

0:08

Or if you're looking for sexual harmony

0:14

Well, there's nothing you can't On

0:19

the Savage Lovecast Ah

0:23

The body count discourse the

0:25

burning man discourse, which should I go with

0:28

body count burning man body

0:30

count

0:31

Burning man i'm gonna go with burning man

0:34

I've been burning man adjacent

0:36

for a long time You can't know as many

0:39

poly people as I do You can't live in a place

0:41

like seattle with all of its techies. You can't

0:43

know as many artists as I do without

0:45

hearing about burning man

0:48

And then when it comes out as it inevitably

0:50

does that you personally me have

0:52

never been to burning man You will hear

0:55

you will be told That you

0:57

want to go to burning man

0:59

my response You don't know me.

1:02

You don't know what I want You

1:04

may know me well enough for us to be having a conversation

1:07

about burning man And people who go

1:09

to burning man have a reputation deservedly

1:12

So in some cases for not being able to converse

1:14

about literally anything else But

1:16

if you knew me better you would know that burning

1:18

man

1:20

Is not for me

1:21

I feel about burning man the same way. I feel

1:23

about skydiving or cunnilingus.

1:26

I've seen the video I've heard people

1:28

rave about it

1:29

not for me

1:31

Burning man, if you haven't heard of it is

1:33

a big annual arts festival slash dance

1:36

party slash orgy Drug

1:38

fuel dance orgy party in the

1:40

desert in nevada in late summer

1:42

They build this huge man that they set

1:45

on fire on the last night people

1:47

come from all over the place and rvs

1:49

and campers and cars and a self-governing

1:52

city or 70 or 80 000 people

1:55

basically appears In the

1:57

desert overnight, there are huge

1:59

pieces of

1:59

of temporary public art, kinetic

2:02

art created for the joy of creation.

2:04

And I'm not kidding when

2:06

I say it looks like an amazing experience.

2:09

But not for me. I don't like crowds. I

2:11

don't like loud music, particularly loud music

2:14

that goes on all night long. And

2:16

while I'm not opposed to recreational drugs

2:18

when used responsibly, I don't

2:20

want to be trapped someplace with tens of

2:22

thousands of strangers who haven't bathed in a week

2:25

when I take recreational drugs responsibly.

2:28

I want to be in a cabin on the Oregon coast with my

2:30

husband and her dogs and access to

2:32

a shower. So maybe you saw it in the

2:34

news this year's Burning Man, which

2:36

was supposed to end yesterday. Hasn't

2:39

ended yet.

2:41

There was an unwelcome guest at the orgy,

2:43

and for once it wasn't Grover Norquist. It

2:45

was rain. It's not supposed

2:47

to rain in the desert in the summer this time of

2:49

year. More rain in a day

2:51

than this part of the country typically gets

2:54

in three months. The rain turned the playa,

2:56

that big flat expanse of desert

2:58

in Nevada where Burning Man takes place,

3:00

turned it to mud and no one could

3:03

get out. People were told to ration their

3:05

food and water and their molly and their

3:07

K because just like no one could get out, nothing

3:09

could get in either. There

3:11

are right now days after

3:13

Burning Man was supposed to end. Tens of thousands

3:16

of people still trapped out there in the mud because

3:19

the rain keeps coming.

3:21

Some people thought this was funny. Some people mocked

3:23

the burners stuck out there in the mud. Some

3:26

people jumped online to spread false rumors

3:29

about an Ebola outbreak. Some

3:31

people really seem to love

3:34

seeing Burning Man devolve into chaos.

3:37

Not me. I come not to bury

3:40

Burning Man, but to praise Burning Man.

3:42

I think Burning Man

3:44

and other events like Burning Man meet

3:47

an important human need. It

3:50

gives people a sense of common purpose and

3:52

mission. Like the Mardi Gras crews

3:54

that work all year long on floats and costumes.

3:56

The burners I know work all year

3:59

long on their outfits.

3:59

their art installations that they create

4:02

together, their Playa bikes, they

4:04

meet up, they collaborate, they connect,

4:06

and adult friendships are formed and

4:09

sustained, and we need

4:11

more of that.

4:12

Studies keep coming out showing that people have fewer

4:14

friends, men in particular, some people,

4:17

many people report having no friends at all.

4:19

We have a loneliness

4:22

epidemic that is contributing to

4:24

political polarization, political

4:27

radicalization, deaths of despair,

4:30

and finding something to do, something

4:32

you enjoy, something that gets you out of the house

4:34

and away from the computer and doing that thing and meeting

4:37

other people who enjoy doing that thing and

4:39

doing that thing with them, collaborating and

4:41

creating with other people, adults

4:44

that you can then talk to about the thing you're doing.

4:46

It's hard for adults to make friends. Adults

4:49

can't just walk up to each other, like five

4:51

year olds, and say, want to be friends? You have to be working

4:54

on something together.

4:56

And Burning Man is a thing that

4:58

thousands of people work on together

5:01

all year long. And

5:03

I think it's a good thing.

5:05

And any event, anything that can inspire

5:07

headlines like this one in CNN, why

5:10

some attendees are sad to leave Burning

5:12

Man despite the flooding and

5:14

the poop buckets, any event that can inspire

5:16

a headline like that

5:18

must be pretty great. If you're

5:20

pooping in a bucket because the porta

5:22

potties are out of service and

5:25

the porta potties were your first choice and

5:27

you still don't want to leave,

5:29

that must be a pretty kick ass event.

5:32

We need more like it. We

5:34

need more Burning Mans.

5:37

We need fewer Marjorie Taylor Greenes.

5:39

Green went on Alex Jones podcast and said the

5:41

rain, the rain that ruined Burning Man was

5:44

a sign from God.

5:45

It wasn't a sign that climate change is real and

5:47

maybe we need to do something about it and maybe

5:49

the widely mocked climate activists

5:52

who briefly blocked the road into Burning Man

5:54

to raise awareness about climate change and

5:56

Burning Man's enormous carbon footprint.

5:59

Maybe.

5:59

those activists had a point? No, no.

6:02

According to green, it rained

6:04

because God will not be mocked.

6:07

Burning man again concludes

6:09

with the burning of a giant man.

6:11

And this is according to

6:14

green idolatry.

6:16

Green doesn't want the burners to walk away and

6:19

some are literally walking for miles in the mud

6:21

to get away. She doesn't want them to walk

6:23

away with the wrong message. The

6:25

wrong message climate change is real and it's

6:27

going to keep getting worse if we don't do something about it. The

6:30

right message according to green

6:32

repent as

6:34

with everything.

6:36

If a Republican is talking, a Republican

6:38

is projecting.

6:40

There are millions of people in this country

6:42

guilty of the sin of idolatry

6:45

who need to repent. They are not at

6:47

burning man. They are at Trump

6:49

rallies.

6:50

All right. The hump film fest fall

6:53

tour kicks off this weekend in Kansas City, Austin,

6:55

Ann Arbor, Seattle, Atlanta, and our

6:57

first ever hump screening in

6:59

Durham, North Carolina. You can still

7:02

stream hump at home if you prefer, but nothing

7:04

compares to seeing hump in

7:06

a theater with a live audience for

7:08

tickets and show times and to find out when hump is coming

7:11

to a city near you, go to hump film fest.com

7:14

and coming up on today's show on the micro

7:17

free edition of the savage love cast, tons of your

7:19

cues, lots of my A's and

7:21

then the Magnum savage love cast that you can

7:23

subscribe to at savage.love.

7:25

It'll get you the Magnum love cast and so

7:28

much more. Author Shiva Rajai joins

7:30

me. She is the director of the center for anxiety

7:33

and OCD. She's a psychotherapist

7:35

and author and she joins me to talk

7:37

about relationship OCD.

7:40

All that coming up on today's show.

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This episode of the savage love cast is brought to

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8:26

Hi, Dan. I'm a 28 year old queer

8:28

woman. Up until recently, I thought that

8:30

I was totally aromantic. I

8:32

think that's mostly due to my hyper independence,

8:35

but I've recently really opened

8:37

myself to love again. And

8:40

my quandary comes where I am currently dating

8:42

two of the sweetest boys

8:44

I have ever met in my entire life. But

8:47

it's been causing a bit of a problem

8:49

for me internally is it's hard for me

8:51

to know how to schedule it. Like

8:54

if they both want to see me on the same day, they

8:56

know about each other. They're fine with it. Everything's

8:59

above board here. But part of me

9:02

still feels like I'm doing something wrong. I

9:04

don't know if that's social conditioning, but it's really hard

9:06

for me to tell them, like,

9:09

hey, I have plans with other guy today.

9:11

I can't hang out or anything like that.

9:13

So I'm wondering if it's just

9:16

not for me to have that kind

9:17

of relationship, or if this is something I could

9:20

maybe get some advice and work through.

9:22

A lot depends on what you mean

9:24

by they know about each other and

9:27

they're fine with those.

9:28

Would they prefer each of them

9:31

to be your only romantic partner?

9:34

Or are they okay with, up

9:36

for, even interested in being

9:38

in a

9:39

polyamorous relationship

9:42

with you, and by extension, this

9:44

other guy in both their cases? If

9:46

they're fine with it, if they're willing

9:49

to settle for this for now, because

9:51

you've just

9:52

started dating each

9:54

of them, both of them, and you're not serious

9:57

about either of them yet, even though you're

9:59

open to it and you have...

9:59

feelings for both of them. And they're

10:02

fine with it in the sense that neither is going

10:05

to force you to choose right

10:07

now, but

10:08

one or the other or both of them

10:11

at some point in the future would like to be

10:14

your only partner or your primary partner,

10:16

the one, the one you

10:19

chose. If it's that,

10:21

if they're fine with it for

10:23

now, but each hopes to be your primary partner

10:25

at some point in the future,

10:28

well, then you

10:30

should be a little bit circumspect,

10:32

but winking. They know that if each of

10:34

them will know that if you have plans on a certain night

10:37

that they'd like to get together, it's probably

10:39

with the other guy. So if

10:42

boy a calls you and says, what

10:44

are you doing Friday? I'd love to hang out. There's

10:46

this thing. And you say, Oh, I'm

10:48

I can't on Friday. I could on Saturday. He's

10:51

going to know that you're with boy

10:52

B and you're

10:55

kind of demonstrating consideration,

10:57

tact, a certain degree of sensitivity

11:01

when you

11:03

are a little bit opaque about

11:05

it.

11:06

You're signaling to him. Yes, I know you're

11:08

fine with this in the sense that for

11:10

now this is okay, but not

11:13

necessarily what you want ultimately.

11:16

And so I'm not going to rub your nose in

11:18

it. I'm going to demonstrate to you that your

11:20

feelings are important to me, even if at

11:22

the moment I can't honor your

11:25

biggest wish, your ultimate feeling, which is the wish,

11:27

the feeling, the desire to be the only

11:30

guy I'm seeing.

11:32

But if what you mean by they're

11:34

fine with it is they know about each

11:36

other, they're cool with each other. Maybe you're moving

11:38

toward a kind of kitchen sink, poly, everything's

11:41

out in the open. Neither is

11:44

jealous.

11:46

Then, you know, if they

11:48

know about it and they're fine with it in that

11:50

sense, then treat them like they're fine

11:52

with it. When one says, boy, a

11:54

calls and says, what are you doing on Friday? I'd like to do

11:56

this thing. You can say, ah, I promise

11:59

boy B I would.

11:59

go with him to this other thing.

12:02

How about Saturday? And

12:04

you can say the same sorts of things to boy

12:06

B about boy A, if they are fine

12:09

with it and

12:11

the poly is what they're

12:13

not just open to for you willing to

12:15

settle for it to be with you, but what

12:18

they want to.

12:19

So fine

12:21

with it, willing to put up with it,

12:23

be opaque. Fine with it, down

12:26

with poly, you want to have a poly functional,

12:28

healthy relationship, you

12:31

don't have to be opaque. Hi Dan, 40 year

12:34

old gay guy here. After listening a lot to your

12:36

show, I've been toying with the idea of being aromantic.

12:39

I've never been in a long-term committed relationship

12:41

before, although I care deeply and I lay down

12:43

in traffic for several friends and family members.

12:46

The idea of romantic love just doesn't make any sense

12:49

to me. I've never had any crushes in my adult

12:51

life. I've never gotten butterflies after meeting

12:53

someone and I've never had those feelings that love

12:55

songs and romantic movies describe. While

12:58

I'm okay with the label of aromantic

13:01

or being aromantic, I'm also sort of troubled.

13:03

It seems like most everyone everywhere and in most

13:05

times has fallen in love at some point in their life

13:08

and I haven't. Sometimes I feel like I'm missing

13:10

out on an important part of what it means to be human

13:13

or have a human experience, which makes me pretty

13:15

sad. I guess that I have several

13:17

questions about being aromantic and what that means.

13:20

How do I not break the hearts of some of the caring,

13:22

sensitive and kind men that I've gone out with

13:24

and had sex with? I care

13:26

for many of them deeply as friends and acquaintances,

13:29

but it seems like many of them don't understand that when

13:31

I say I don't have those feelings, I

13:33

really mean I don't have those feelings. Some

13:36

of them even take it as a challenge, like they will

13:38

be the ones to make me finally fall in love.

13:41

Secondly, how do I know if I'm aromantic or

13:43

maybe just need more therapy? My parents

13:45

divorced when I was 12 and I know that my models for

13:47

romantic relationships have mostly not been

13:50

positive. I feel like I've had quite

13:52

a bit of therapy about this already though and I'm 40 years

13:54

old, but should I explore this more before I adopt the

13:56

label and be out and proud about it?

13:59

The great thing about labels is that you can take them off,

14:01

you can slap them on, you can also

14:03

take them off. You can also pull

14:06

out a Sharpie and amend them

14:08

or add an asterisk and

14:11

add a little bit more whenever you want. So

14:14

if it helps you to think of

14:16

yourself as a romantic, if

14:18

it helps you and the guys that you're dating for

14:21

you to identify as a romantic

14:23

and be out about a romantic,

14:25

you can absolutely and should

14:28

perhaps identify

14:30

as a romantic. And if that turns

14:32

out not to be true for you a

14:35

year from now, five years from now, I

14:37

hate to use this kind of framing because this shit

14:39

was said to me when I was coming out as gay,

14:41

but the gay and the aromantic experiences

14:44

are different experiences that

14:47

touch on different aspects of our sexual

14:49

and romantic lives. But it was said to me when I came out,

14:51

you just haven't met the right woman. And I don't want to say to you,

14:54

you just haven't met the right guy. But

14:56

the previous caller who identified

14:58

as a romantic until two of the right guys

15:00

came along is proof that

15:03

someone can identify as a romantic, that that

15:05

label can work for them. It can be their truth.

15:08

And then they can

15:10

tear

15:10

that label off, peel that label off,

15:12

amend that label if life

15:15

throws someone or something at them that

15:18

requires them to rethink it and

15:20

perhaps relabel themselves. So

15:23

a label is there not

15:25

to lock you in place. It is there to

15:27

serve you. And if this label

15:29

serves you,

15:31

you should go right ahead

15:33

and use it. And if you're 40 and you've discussed

15:36

this in therapy and really worked on it,

15:39

and it hasn't changed, well, I

15:41

don't necessarily think you should throw more

15:44

therapy at it.

15:46

You're 40, I think you

15:48

should accept it and

15:51

embrace it

15:52

and be proud of it. Yes,

15:54

you're not gonna have the common human

15:57

experience that butterflies and love has

15:59

portrayed.

15:59

romantic songs and

16:01

rom-coms, you're going to have a different

16:05

human experience. You're gonna have the aromantic

16:07

human experience, which is a legitimate

16:10

human experience. And

16:12

I think when it comes to the guys

16:15

that you date,

16:16

most people are going to make the reasonable

16:18

assumption that if you're out there dating and

16:20

having sex and making connections,

16:23

that you, like 99% of everybody, is

16:27

capable of experiencing romantic

16:30

love. If you know that not to be true

16:32

for

16:33

you based on self-assessment,

16:35

but also based on how long have you been

16:37

sexually active? 20, 25 years of lived

16:40

experience?

16:41

You should tell people. This is kind of

16:44

maybe the ultimate example of it's not

16:46

you, it's me. You should tell these

16:48

guys that you're dating, that

16:51

you don't have these feelings. You do not experience

16:53

romantic feelings. You are

16:56

aromantic.

16:57

So that they don't think there's

16:59

something wrong with them when they don't

17:01

inspire these feelings in

17:03

you. And so that they don't make a romantic

17:06

investment in you. So

17:08

you can't

17:09

help feeling your feelings. You

17:11

feel things or don't feel things that

17:13

you might like to feel or might not

17:15

like to feel.

17:17

And these guys might catch feelings for

17:19

you even if you send up

17:21

a flare and warn them that you'll never catch

17:23

feelings for them in quite the same way.

17:27

But they have a right to know that going in. This is

17:30

something that you probably should

17:32

disclose. And that doesn't

17:36

mean you'll never hurt another guy again who

17:38

might catch feelings for you even with this warning,

17:40

but you're less likely to

17:42

hurt a guy. And if a guy decides

17:46

despite you identifying yourself

17:48

to them as a romantic, to make an enormous

17:51

romantic investment in you in the hopes that

17:53

they'll

17:54

be the one that breaks

17:57

through and you do catch

17:59

feelings. and then they wind up getting hurt, well that's

18:01

on them. And then if they make that enormous investment

18:04

and you do catch feelings for them, like

18:06

the previous caller caught feelings simultaneously

18:08

for two different guys, great,

18:11

great.

18:11

Then you will have this

18:14

common human experience and

18:16

you can

18:17

steam that label off your can.

18:20

Hey dude, are you in

18:22

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That's squarespace.com slash Savage

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and use the offer code Savage. Hello,

19:42

Dan. I'm the youngest of my siblings

19:46

and had a very lovely childhood, lovely

19:48

time. We had a family event

19:52

last week and my

19:55

mother and father got quite drunk, very

19:57

drunk indeed.

19:59

my father stayed on at the

20:02

party and I brought my

20:04

mother home in a taxi of course and

20:07

she seemed

20:08

very upset when I brought her home so

20:11

I didn't know what this was about. I thought perhaps a

20:14

fight with my father and

20:16

I made her some tea as

20:18

we English do and after quite

20:21

a lot of coaxing over two

20:23

hours of it she

20:26

told me that she thinks

20:28

that she might be gay

20:29

or something I'm not sure and

20:32

that she is known for a very

20:34

long time and that

20:36

she actually had a relationship with

20:38

a woman while she was

20:41

married to my father but that stopped

20:44

when she had

20:45

children, us, and she

20:48

hasn't seen her for decades

20:50

so that's quite shocking, very

20:53

shocking. I always thought my parents'

20:55

marriage was relatively well

20:58

adjusted. The next morning she

21:00

didn't say

21:01

anything else to me and I am very

21:05

very confused and I don't really

21:08

know what to do and I don't really

21:10

know what to say and I don't know how to approach

21:12

her. I don't know whether I should tell my father

21:14

this, I don't know whether I should tell her to

21:17

tell him. Does he know? I don't know. It's

21:19

all a bit scary. She seemed uncomfortable

21:22

that she told me. I'm not sure. I'm not

21:24

sure she would have said anything. She didn't have anything to drink.

21:27

Where do I go with this? Do I not say anything

21:29

to anyone? Do I tell my siblings?

21:31

I'm not sure. If you

21:33

love your mother, if you want to

21:35

be supportive, you will keep your fucking

21:38

mouth shut. You will not

21:40

go and tell your dad what

21:42

your mother told you when your mother was drunk

21:45

after you took her home and coaxed

21:48

her, you say, for two hours to

21:50

tell you what the fuck she was feeling or thinking

21:52

about or was making her sad and she finally broke

21:54

down and told you after two hours

21:58

of questioning. Yeah. Yeah, you

22:01

shut the fuck up. You don't tell your siblings,

22:03

you don't tell your dad. If you

22:05

say anything to your mother, all you say

22:08

to her is, look, if you want to talk about that

22:10

again, we can talk about it.

22:12

You can confide in me, you can trust me, and

22:14

I won't say anything to

22:17

anyone. It is not

22:19

your job or

22:21

your responsibility to tell

22:24

your father this thing that your mother

22:27

decided, at some point in her life,

22:30

never to tell your father

22:33

this fact about herself that very may well

22:35

be true. She may be gay, she may be

22:37

a lesbian, she may be bi enough

22:40

to have married a man and had some children

22:42

with that man, and she, at this stage

22:44

of life, late middle age,

22:47

have some

22:48

regrets and some feelings about

22:50

different choices she could have made,

22:53

different ways she could have lived.

22:56

And man, you just gotta

22:58

keep your mouth fucking shut. This

23:01

isn't your secret to

23:04

tell. And

23:05

if your mother felt uncomfortable the next morning,

23:07

it was probably because she was worried

23:10

that you might say something

23:12

to your father that would blow

23:15

up her life, that would devastate

23:18

your father emotionally, that

23:20

might make him feel like his entire

23:23

married life had

23:25

been a lie.

23:27

It's possible that your mother was

23:29

gay. It's possible that your mother

23:32

succumbed to social pressures

23:35

at a time that others were shaking off

23:38

compulsory heterosexuality, your mother succumbed

23:40

to compulsory heterosexuality, and

23:42

she was incapable

23:44

of fully loving your

23:46

father sexually and romantically, but she

23:49

did love your father to

23:51

the best of her ability

23:54

in the limited way that

23:57

a gay person or a heterosexuality

24:00

decades ago could love the opposite

24:04

sex partner that they chose

24:06

or settled for

24:08

under duress. Your mom

24:10

can't unmake those choices

24:13

now. This may be something

24:15

your mom never wants

24:17

to tell your dad. This may be something that

24:20

your dad would never want

24:22

to be told. And

24:25

luckily for you, it's not your

24:27

thing to tell your dad or

24:30

tell your siblings. The only person you should say

24:32

anything to right now is your mom. And

24:34

all you need to say to your mom is

24:38

you don't have to worry.

24:40

I will not say anything to

24:42

anyone. If you need to talk about

24:44

this again, you can

24:47

talk to me. If you want

24:49

to talk to somebody else, I'll help you find

24:53

a therapist. If

24:55

indeed you want to tell dad,

24:58

if you want to come out, I

25:00

will be in your corner.

25:03

I will be there for you. I will

25:05

also be there for my father who I also love.

25:08

And then shut the fuck up. Shut your mouth. Don't

25:11

say anything to anybody. Don't

25:13

say anything to your siblings.

25:17

Just say to your mom, you're not going to say anything

25:20

to anyone. But if she wants to talk

25:23

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27:18

Dear Dan, I'm starting a women's

27:20

book club with a focus on books by women

27:22

about women. A male friend of mine wants to

27:24

be our naked server. He has played this

27:26

role for another women's book club and his responsibilities

27:29

are to help set up for the book club, greet

27:31

the guests at the door, take coats and bags

27:33

and then during the group serve snacks, mixed drinks

27:36

and keep the drinks popped off, etc. Then

27:38

to help clean up after the group has ended. All

27:40

of the book members will be dressed.

27:43

It's a really fun and great setup and everyone

27:45

in the other book club he serves. He

27:48

is very excited to serve my new book club in this

27:50

way and so we have reached a disagreement in our planning.

27:53

My new book club will be for anyone who identifies

27:55

as a woman. Period. When he was

27:57

asked directly about this in his first book

27:59

club, he said, says is important to him that the group is all

28:01

cis women. I, however, am not interested

28:04

in starting a turf book club and would

28:06

not be able to comfortably invite anyone

28:08

I know to join such clubs. He

28:10

feels like he's being vulnerable by being naked

28:13

and wants to be able to make boundaries around

28:15

who sees him naked. While he doesn't have an issue

28:17

with trans women in other contexts, he

28:19

says that he does not get to choose his

28:22

sexual desires or his sexual orientation

28:24

and that he feels uncomfortable with the idea of sharing his naked

28:26

serving kink with trans women.

28:29

Dan, we're both really into the book club idea and

28:31

we already have plans about who

28:33

we want to invite, of note, nobody

28:35

yet on the list as a trans woman, and

28:38

we have a book list and now

28:40

we are at an impasse. We had

28:42

had respectful discussions with each other and

28:44

have not made any progress on the issue and

28:47

we decided to turn our disagreement over to you. Dan,

28:50

please guide us to find a way to have the book

28:52

club we both want, one that lets him

28:54

enjoy his serving kink that is also

28:56

inclusive. I'm trying to be respectful

28:58

of my friends kinks, but I

29:01

also want him to get over this so we can start

29:03

day drinking and book discussions.

29:06

All right.

29:07

Start the book club and start

29:09

the naked serving. There's no

29:12

trans women who have yet raised

29:14

their hand wanting to join

29:17

your book club, which means you're letting a purely

29:19

hypothetical situation

29:22

derail this book club

29:25

and the enjoyment that this guy

29:27

is so graciously willing to

29:30

take from your book club

29:32

by playing the naked

29:33

servant at it. And you were going to have

29:36

this book club anyway. You mentioned

29:38

this book club to this guy and he's like, oh, can I be the naked servant?

29:41

So have the fucking book club and he can

29:43

be the naked servant for as long as he's comfortable being

29:46

the naked servant. And if a trans woman comes

29:48

along and wants to join your book club, I think you

29:51

should let her join your

29:53

book club and then he can fuck the fuck

29:55

off. He can take his erection

29:58

and go the fuck home.

29:59

with it. If he's not comfortable being the naked

30:02

servant for 15 cis

30:03

women and

30:06

one or two trans women,

30:08

if the presence of one or two trans women really spoils

30:10

it for him, he's not obligated

30:12

to continue having sex

30:14

with your book club, which is really what this is for

30:17

him. It is an erotic experience. CFNM,

30:21

CFNM, I can never quite remember that acronym

30:23

without really thinking about it, clothes, female,

30:26

naked, male, that is a kink.

30:28

And so this is, even though there's no

30:31

penetration, even though there's no

30:34

presumably ejaculation, although I'd

30:36

probably put a monitor

30:38

cam in the kitchen where he's preparing the hors d'oeuvres

30:40

and mixing the drinks just to make

30:42

sure there was no ejaculation into the hors

30:45

d'oeuvres or the drinks, it's a sexual

30:47

experience for him. This is about

30:49

eroticism and people

30:52

have a right to decide who

30:55

they want to have sex with. And

30:58

sometimes it hurts our feelings when people don't

31:01

want to have sex with us for whatever reason it might

31:03

be. Some people don't want to have sex

31:05

with people because they're too old.

31:07

Some people don't want to have sex with people because they're too

31:10

big. Some people don't want to have sex with people because they're

31:12

too skinny,they're too twinkies. Some people

31:14

don't want to have sex with people because

31:16

they're trans. Some people don't want to

31:18

have sex with people for all

31:20

sorts of reasons that can feel, if you're

31:23

on the receiving end of those rejections,

31:25

dehumanizing and offensive,

31:28

which is why people should

31:30

attempt to

31:32

steer around each other's feelings

31:34

when it comes to meeting out these kinds of

31:37

rejections. You should be courteous

31:40

about your precious preferences.

31:43

And that is a thing that it's possible

31:45

to do.

31:47

And the point of this book club isn't

31:49

this

31:50

naked weirdo. And

31:52

I say that with affection. There's a lot

31:54

of things I'm into sexually that classify

31:56

me in the weirdo camp as well.

31:59

The book club isn't about the naked weirdo, it's about

32:02

the bluest eye or eat, pray, love or whatever books

32:04

by women that you're going to be reading with these

32:06

other women and the naked servant was

32:08

incidental.

32:09

And the presence

32:11

of a trans woman right now at the book club is entirely

32:14

hypothetical. So start

32:16

the fucking book club already and he

32:20

can get off on being the naked servant for as long

32:22

as he's comfortable being the naked servant.

32:24

When he doesn't want to be the naked servant anymore, then

32:27

you can have your book club in

32:29

peace. Women can hang their own fucking

32:32

coats up and get their own drinks and they don't

32:34

necessarily have to have them handed to them

32:37

by the naked weirdo.

32:39

Summer is ending for some of you. That means

32:41

school is starting for all of us. Change

32:44

of seasons involves change in routines.

32:47

Transitions can be hard. It can leave us feeling low.

32:50

And if you've been considering therapy for a while

32:52

but haven't gotten around to it, a change

32:54

of seasons is a good time to take that

32:56

next step. And I recommend Talkspace

32:59

to help you with that next step.

33:01

At Talkspace.com you can sign up online

33:04

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33:06

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33:23

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33:25

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33:27

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33:30

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33:32

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33:34

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34:01

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34:04

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34:13

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34:16

slash savage.

34:18

Hey Dan, I need some guidance. So I've

34:20

been with my partner for almost two years

34:22

now and lately there's been a lot of distance.

34:25

We haven't really been connecting like

34:27

we used to and so he's been on a

34:29

trip to trip. He's on the trip right now for a couple of weeks

34:32

and

34:33

when I called him and I explained that we have been

34:35

having this feeling, there's something up. And

34:37

he said, there's nothing up, you know, no, right.

34:40

I still desire you, of course. And so that

34:42

just didn't really sit right with me. I still felt like something's

34:44

up. He's being distant. And so

34:47

he left one of his laptops at the house and

34:49

I snooped and I know I shouldn't have snooped, but

34:52

you know, it turned out my intuition was correct.

34:54

And I found that he was looking for escorts

34:57

and hookups in the areas that he was staying and

35:00

that I was mortified

35:02

by this. But I ended up messaging him and asking

35:04

him about that. And if he wants to explain what this

35:06

is and he

35:08

denied it, you know, he basically said that he was

35:10

just looking for jerk off material and that

35:12

it was like a porn thing when he's like signing up to rent

35:14

men,

35:15

which is just like insane to me. He accused, he said I

35:17

was fucking crazy. He

35:19

told me that I was kink shaming him and violating

35:21

his privacy, which I did, you know, violate his privacy.

35:24

But the fact that he can't address

35:26

this and we can't even talk about it, you

35:28

know, I'm all for not ethical non-monogamy, but

35:30

the ethical part is really important. Obviously. And

35:33

so I think I have to leave. And

35:36

the problem is, you know, we live at his home with

35:38

two, his two kids who are 20 and 17. I

35:41

have an independent relationship with them both. And I just

35:43

don't know, I guess I don't know what's appropriate to disclose

35:47

about why I'm leaving. I don't want to dump on

35:49

them and you know, that's not okay. But at the

35:51

same time, I don't want to

35:53

just leave without a reason of

35:55

any kind. And I don't want to

35:59

let him be the only narrator.

35:59

through in this situation. So I

36:02

guess I need help understanding

36:04

what would be appropriate in this, you know, what's okay

36:06

to tell them. I don't want to paint a picture of his dad, that

36:08

having

36:09

a piece of shit, you know, that's not it. I don't

36:12

think he is a piece of shit. I think he's been going through hard times

36:14

and he

36:15

fucked up. But like, I just need some

36:17

guidance on this. What's appropriate

36:19

to disclose to the

36:22

family as I'm leaving the

36:24

family? Let's be honest

36:27

about what's going on here.

36:29

This

36:30

relationship is over.

36:32

You've only been with this man for two years. And

36:34

in that time, you've grown apart,

36:37

there's not much trust. Now you violated

36:39

his privacy. And you found out that

36:42

he is likelier than not

36:45

cheating on you when he's out of town,

36:48

practicing unethical non-monogamy.

36:51

And you were at least hypothetically down

36:53

for ethical non-monogamy, but you weren't

36:55

down for this. And that's

36:57

not okay, what he was doing. I think

37:00

it's obviously a sign that this

37:02

relationship of only 24 ish

37:04

months

37:06

was probably ending,

37:09

whether or not you

37:11

snooped and caught him doing what he

37:13

is most likely doing.

37:16

But I think when you bring up his kids

37:18

and exiting this family and you say, I don't

37:22

want him to be the only narrator in

37:24

this situation, what

37:26

you're centering is your ego, really,

37:29

that this relationship is going to end and these

37:31

kids are still going to be his kids and they're going

37:33

to live with him. And odds are, they're

37:36

going to ask where the fuck you went. And he's

37:38

going to obviously

37:41

control that narrative. He's going to get to tell them

37:43

whatever it is that he wants to tell them about the

37:45

end of the relationship and you don't want to let them

37:47

get away with it. You don't want to let them get away with

37:49

portraying you as the

37:52

person who did something wrong or the reason the relationship

37:55

ended. And so

37:57

there you are tempted to tell a a 20

38:00

year old and a 17 year old.

38:02

What exactly? What are you threatening to tell them? That

38:04

their dad was fucking prostitutes when

38:06

he was out of town? They don't

38:09

need to know that. They don't want to

38:11

know that. And I

38:12

can assure you when you met these kids, they

38:14

were 15 and 18. They were

38:17

almost fully grown in one

38:19

case and fully grown in the

38:21

other. I'm sure they like you fine, but

38:23

they haven't attached to you as

38:25

if you are a parental figure

38:28

in their lives and you are likely to not

38:30

have a relationship with them

38:32

in the future.

38:34

So you can't control the relationship they're gonna

38:36

have with their father in

38:38

the future, nor should you want to try. Let

38:41

him live with having been the bad guy here. If

38:43

the cheating on you makes him the bad guy in

38:46

the story, he knows what the real story

38:48

is. I think you can say to

38:50

these kids

38:52

as you're packing your shit up, it just, it

38:54

didn't work out.

38:56

A distance grew between us. We

38:59

became estranged from each other. And

39:02

ultimately as in so many

39:04

adult relationships, we both did things that

39:07

we regret.

39:08

Period the end. You don't have to tell them the thing

39:10

that you did was violating your dad's privacy and

39:13

reading through his emails and a laptop he

39:15

left at home. And you don't have to tell them

39:17

that

39:19

their dad violated your trust by

39:22

fucking other guys when he

39:24

was out of town.

39:26

They don't need to know

39:29

that. What they'll

39:31

know when you leave is that adult relationships

39:33

are complicated,

39:35

romantic relationships

39:37

are sometimes not forever.

39:40

And if you want them not to think of you as the

39:42

bad guy,

39:44

if you're worried that your ex is gonna spin it that

39:46

way, don't press that button.

39:49

They will definitely think of you

39:51

as the bad guy. And the reason the relationship

39:53

had to end, if you are so

39:57

selfish

39:58

as to out their father.

39:59

to them as a cheater and

40:02

a whoremonger. Because even if that's true,

40:05

they didn't need to know it. And the

40:07

only reason that they'll

40:10

think that you told them that, was

40:12

because you wanted to fuck up their relationship with

40:14

their father. Hi Dan, 38 year

40:17

old, queer person. I

40:20

was recently broken up with one

40:23

of my poly partners.

40:25

They stated that they didn't love me and they wouldn't.

40:28

And I did, so that caused enormous

40:30

amounts of guilt. We had an argument,

40:33

said some things I regret. And retrospectively,

40:36

I realized that had it been tremendously

40:38

controlling and demanding

40:41

of this person that they had the

40:43

relationship I imagined, rather than the

40:45

one they wanted or the one they could

40:47

have. And I never really

40:49

paid attention to their needs. I was quite

40:52

dominant in intending to submit

40:55

this person to myself. Now

40:57

that it's over, I really wish to apologize

40:59

about this. And I realized my desire

41:01

to apologize, comes from

41:04

an honest place, but I also have

41:06

the notion that I might just be

41:08

trying to fix what's now on fixable.

41:12

And I'm quite torn between my desire

41:14

to apologize and my knowledge

41:17

of me being hopeful that we will

41:19

get back together. What do you think

41:21

I should do?

41:23

Hey, I've given some thought to what you

41:25

said to me. When you broke up

41:27

with me about me being controlling and

41:29

demanding and not attentive to your needs,

41:32

I sat with that and I recognized that

41:34

you were right, that I was controlling and

41:36

demanding and not attentive to your needs.

41:39

And I apologize, that

41:41

is something I am going to work

41:44

on. You could say that to

41:46

him. He might like

41:48

to hear that.

41:50

I think if you said that to him,

41:53

he has any emotional intelligence at all, he

41:55

may know, and it's a reasonable assumption

41:58

to make, that you may be issuing this apology. in

42:00

the hopes of getting back

42:02

together. Sometimes

42:04

that is what people do when they apologize in the

42:06

wake of being dumped. They

42:09

sincerely issue an apology.

42:12

And I don't want to describe it as an ulterior

42:14

motive because I don't think it's an ulterior motive. I

42:17

think it's a motive motive. It's just

42:20

a

42:20

feeling someone have that they didn't want

42:22

this relationship to end and they regret how it ended.

42:24

They regret their behavior

42:27

that prompted the other person to end the relationship

42:30

and it's just generally understood that

42:32

when someone is dumped or caused

42:34

and they apologize for whatever they did

42:37

that caused that person to dump them, that

42:39

they're expressing a

42:42

wish also. Maybe just a desire

42:44

to make it right, say what they

42:46

didn't say in the heat of the moment.

42:48

They took the time to smell their own shit and they want to apologize

42:51

for the stink.

42:52

And also if you were dumped,

42:55

you probably regret being dumped and in

42:57

some alternate timeline you

42:59

hoped you would wish you were still together or

43:02

in the timeline that you're in

43:04

you would hope that this person would recognize

43:07

the sincerity of your regret and your apology

43:10

and maybe give you some time to work on your shit or

43:13

that it stinks less

43:15

and take you back. But most people who get

43:17

this kind of apology don't wind up taking the person who

43:19

gave it back. So

43:21

it's a little bit like

43:23

a wish that is highly unlikely

43:26

to come true and

43:27

you know it and the person on the receiving end

43:29

of the apology

43:30

knows it as well. It doesn't

43:32

create any obligation on their part to

43:34

consider taking you back if you apologize for

43:36

whatever you did that prompted them to dump

43:38

you in the first place.

43:41

And it could help to hear that.

43:43

No say it

43:45

and then fuck off. Say

43:48

it and then stop texting.

43:51

Say your piece. Issue that apology

43:53

and then

43:54

back the fuck off. And if that person

43:57

is interested

43:58

in reconnecting with you. in picking

44:00

back up romantically or just being

44:02

friends,

44:05

they'll

44:05

reach out. All right,

44:07

before we get to this week's listener response calls, I

44:09

wanna share a couple of comments left on last week's

44:11

show at savage.love. Says

44:14

Delta 35, Dan's advice

44:16

to the man with the HIV positive husband who kept

44:18

his HIV status a secret left

44:21

out potentially life-saving medical

44:23

advice. Any fluid bonded

44:25

HIV negative partner of an HIV

44:28

positive person should be on

44:30

prep even if the PAWS partner

44:33

is undetectable. Undetectable

44:35

status can change even for a medication

44:36

compliant honest person who isn't

44:39

harboring secrets. Thank

44:41

you Delta, that is very important point

44:43

that I should have made.

44:45

Says by Danfan, great threesome tips

44:47

from Dan and sex therapist Claire Pearlman

44:49

last week. I would add one which sounds

44:52

a bit cynical but directly addresses the caller's

44:54

admission of insecurity. Do

44:56

not bring in a unicorn who is hotter

44:59

than you are. Watching boyfriend

45:01

with a hot woman will trigger jealousy and insecurity,

45:04

watching him with an ordinary looking woman

45:07

less likely to. I had

45:09

assumed the caller was one of those many millions

45:11

of bisexual women with boyfriends or husbands who've

45:13

come out over the last 10, 15 years. If

45:16

so, if she's bi, there's something in it for

45:18

her if their unicorn is hot but bi

45:20

Danfan is not wrong. Caller,

45:23

if you're worried about feeling insecure in

45:25

the looks department with somebody that you

45:27

think is hotter than you are, yeah,

45:30

there's an easy way to control for that. Finally

45:33

says loves butts, a pregnant

45:35

woman's 41 year old husband

45:37

shits in the shower

45:38

and expects her to clean it up. Four

45:41

question marks, four exclamation points.

45:44

Doing this once should make anyone and

45:46

or their spouse think it's time for a trip to the

45:48

fucking hospital. Continuing

45:50

to do this is the fastest

45:52

fucking DTMFA I have ever

45:55

fucking

45:56

heard. All right, for more

45:58

listener comments and more.

45:59

my responses, check out struggle

46:02

session posted on Thursdays at savage.love,

46:04

where I respond to comments, emails, and DMS

46:07

from my listeners and readers. It's another

46:09

perk for Magnum subs to get all

46:11

the perks of being one of my subs.

46:14

You can become my sub right now at

46:16

savage.love. And now listener

46:18

response calls.

46:20

Hey Dan, that's Ava Tech Savvy at Risk Youth.

46:23

This is a listener response call regarding

46:25

the person who was receiving unsolicited

46:28

sex pics as opposed to just solo

46:31

pics. I see this potentially

46:34

as a really good screening tool.

46:37

Those people who are sending you pictures without

46:40

considering the consent issues

46:43

and or the needs and or feelings

46:45

of those other parties involved are

46:47

probably people you want to avoid like the plague.

46:50

So you're going to block them and move on

46:53

and best luck to you.

46:55

Hi, this is a response to the teacher in

46:57

Florida and episode eight, seven, nine.

47:00

I agree with what Dan said. I'm a public school

47:02

teacher and have been for 17 years. Policy's

47:04

come and go.

47:06

And although this policy seems

47:08

very scary, do what's

47:10

best for your kids. And if you're

47:13

right now wondering if you should stay or should

47:15

you go stay and teach as

47:17

if it's your last year in Florida.

47:20

This is the trans man from episode eight, 79. One

47:23

detail I forgot to mention is that although

47:26

the people I work with have been shitty, the

47:28

institution that I work for does at least have

47:30

LGBT affirming policies. So

47:33

I decided to take a chance and come out

47:35

as trans in an email to staff during our

47:37

corporate pride week during which we

47:39

receive emails from head office reminding us

47:41

that everyone is supposed to be welcome here. The

47:44

director of our branch hit reply all

47:46

and gave a poorly worded but somewhat

47:49

supportive response. He wrote, thank

47:51

you for your openness about your choices.

47:54

Not ideal, but also if anyone makes

47:56

you uncomfortable, you can come to me, which

47:58

was helpful in setting the.

48:00

So far, none of the guys I work with

48:02

have said anything about it to me. They're

48:05

being pretty cold and impersonal, but at least

48:07

they're keeping it polite and professional. And

48:10

the guy who has been making me uncomfortable

48:12

has backed off for the time being. So

48:14

now I'm at least relieved of the burden of

48:16

hiding. Things are okay for

48:19

the moment, and I'm hoping that I can

48:21

keep the peace until my work term and my

48:23

lease end, and I can get the

48:25

hell out of here. And we're going

48:28

to leave it there. Got a

48:30

question for next week's Lovecast or something to say about

48:32

something I said on this week's Lovecast? Go

48:35

to savage.love.com

48:37

right now while that question or comment is still fresh

48:39

in your mind and recorded for us. Or

48:42

you can use the voice memo app on your phone and email

48:44

your question or comment to q at savage.love.com

48:47

And

48:48

you can also leave us a message at 206-302-2064.

48:53

Once again, time to get tickets for a Hump

48:55

screening in a theater near you. And

48:57

while you're on the Hump website, be sure

48:59

to check out how you can get your

49:01

amateur porn film into

49:04

my prestigious amateur

49:06

porn film festival at humpfilmfest.com.

49:10

Follow me on Instagram and threads and blue

49:13

sky at Dan Savage. And I'm still

49:15

in the bad place at fake Dan

49:17

Savage. To learn more about Shiva Rajai's

49:19

work and to get her book, you can go

49:22

to the website for the Center for Anxiety

49:25

and OCD. That website is

49:27

at caocd.com.

49:30

Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartoonian

49:32

and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at Risk

49:34

Youth. We will all be back at you next week with an installment

49:37

of the Savage Lovecast.

49:38

Thank you for downloading. Savage

49:49

Lovecast is produced by Risk Youth.

50:00

you