0:04

You're listening to

0:06

Sex and Politics

0:08

at Savage.love. Tim

0:16

Miller really needs no introduction around here at

0:18

this point, but I am the host of

0:21

this here bonus podcast for Savage Lovecast Magnum

0:23

subscribers. So I'm going to do

0:25

my host job and introduce Tim Miller anyway.

0:28

Miller is a writer at large for the

0:30

Bulwark host of the Bulwark's flagship daily podcast,

0:33

the Bulwark podcast, author of the

0:35

New York Times bestseller, Why We Did It,

0:37

a travelogue from the Republican road to hell.

0:39

He was previously political director for Republican voters

0:42

against Trump. Before that, he was

0:44

communications director for Jeb Bush. Before

0:46

that, Miller was involved for a very long

0:48

time in Republican politics at the highest levels

0:51

as a GOP operative. When

0:54

the Republican party lost its way and

0:56

lost its mind, Tim did not pull

0:58

a Nancy Mace or an Elise Stefanik.

1:01

He did not shove his tongue and then the rest

1:03

of his head up Donald Trump's ass. He

1:05

quit his job. He left GOP

1:07

politics, walked away. Now

1:10

Miller is one of the smartest,

1:13

most incisive and hilariously mordant voices

1:15

commenting on politics. Maybe you've seen

1:17

him on MSNBC and

1:19

you know what? Miller after two outings on

1:22

the Savage Lovecast and two outings on Sex

1:24

and Politics, Miller is getting pretty good at

1:26

giving sex advice too. This of

1:28

course is Sex and Politics, a special

1:30

bonus podcast we do for Savage Lovecast

1:32

Magnum subscribers. We're making

1:34

a big chunk of this interview with

1:36

Tim Miller available for all of our

1:38

subscribers, micro and Magnum. We

1:41

hope you enjoy it. We hope it also tempts

1:43

you into becoming a Magnum sub yourself and enjoying

1:45

all the perks of being one

1:48

of my subs. You get the Magnum Savage

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Lovecast, more calls, more guests, no ads. You

1:52

get all of Savage Love. You get all

1:54

of the archives. You get invites to Savage

1:56

Love Live. You get struggle session and you

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get Savage Love. And Politics

2:01

podcasts in their entirety.

2:04

The. Last time similar came on the show

2:06

in February, he asked to come back

2:08

specifically on for twenty. The deal was

2:10

we'd both get high and check and

2:12

about the Presidential election that the G

2:14

Opium Den primaries were over in the

2:16

general election was underway and Donald Trump

2:18

was on trial. As you will hear

2:20

Tim, who may be one of the

2:23

busiest people in the podcasting Rocket and

2:25

we really appreciate it. will make time

2:27

for us, but Tim didn't quite hold

2:29

up his end of the bargain. Only

2:31

one of us was stoned. See if

2:33

you can tell. Who it was.

2:35

Hope. You enjoy the conversation with Tim

2:38

Miller from The Bulwark. Welcome.

2:40

Back to Sex and Politics Tim Miller

2:42

Us: I'm an I'm honored people's in

2:44

begging for this returned. You actually volunteered

2:46

to come back so we could do

2:49

is show that would come out on

2:51

for twenty and we would both be

2:53

stoned. Honoring our gentleman's agreement to be

2:55

stoned. I got stoned Know I am

2:57

stoned and you are. Not. Stones.

2:59

I wish I was hacker I wanted to

3:01

be. I do want to say I wanted

3:03

to be. And. But

3:06

I was. I was a stoner in college big

3:08

time in of so my early twenties and that

3:10

my husband scuse not a stoner and I turned

3:13

him into a stoner. Now is to let kids

3:15

you know I have a daily podcast and

3:17

shit and like life and content and I'm and

3:19

and I get anxiety at yes some for various

3:21

middle aged early middle aged seasons and so anyway

3:24

he's on a work trip. And. I

3:26

texted him and I was like i need

3:28

where's the weed and I told them savage,

3:30

I get stoned with them and I don't

3:32

I don't know that I can I literally

3:34

that's that's house. I've become Straits. I was

3:36

a Republican stoner and now I'm a straight

3:38

laced Nine Republicans The An undersized across A

3:40

doing exactly what you're not supposed to do

3:42

and you're in New Orleans and you can't

3:44

find the weed your husband had. There's no

3:46

we'd to be found at wireless. I probably

3:48

could have found some had I in a

3:50

spent more than five minutes. Unfortunately, fighter such

3:52

as Isi part of think you for honoring

3:54

it and I was. Also the curious since

3:57

I'm a little more clear of mind. And

3:59

I know. Can carry on because I am

4:01

listening to the Bulwark, the flagship podcast

4:03

of Bulwark Industries Incorporated. Oh, and you're

4:05

doing a great job carrying that and

4:07

that comes out every day. How do

4:10

you do it? You do the bulwarks.

4:12

You do the next level's you're always

4:14

on the everybody Elses podcast and the

4:16

Bulwark you do more than one hundred

4:18

housing and a human being can possibly

4:20

be right at even a single week.

4:22

Yeah, now it is. Didn't sink or

4:24

some all. I also like to party

4:26

so I've halides. it's to and I'm

4:28

a parents and so I'm going to

4:30

just be gray at the end. a

4:32

toy. Twenty fours. The answer I'm i'm

4:34

I'm burned and on both ends of

4:36

the wick. But it's fun. it's I'd

4:38

it's ago, poor me. I've got to

4:40

talk for an hour every morning and

4:42

and some mornings are going to talk

4:44

for two hours. I thought that I

4:46

got us aren't Let's get to it

4:49

are usually when we do sex in

4:51

politics, talk about of from ever and

4:53

never and then we take a sex

4:55

question at the an ad for this

4:57

when I want to open with a

4:59

questions that have. One of my listeners

5:01

sent to me and I just wanna

5:03

have. Pumped. To you. So here

5:05

we go. Again, I'm

5:07

thirty nine years old and for

5:09

a microfiber, progressive on everything, and

5:11

I have voted democrat in every

5:14

election. A T. A burglar national

5:16

even now. Many democrats

5:18

to be hard to crack the kind of funny,

5:20

but I do it anyway. I'll have my limit.

5:23

I. Do not want to. Not for

5:25

Joe Biden here. And in fact I

5:27

don't think I can. an alpha the

5:30

American. And right now they're an estimated

5:32

twenty five thousand people after commercial, done

5:34

that and data in a way that

5:36

we are funding and compacted. N N

5:38

E her son incredibly of little earner

5:41

empathy for those people to the point

5:43

right of canal under. The point that

5:45

the administration it would be impossible for me to

5:47

do so on a personal level, a moral level.

5:49

but. Okay, say that that's

5:51

not important you for some reason like

5:54

you have other issues that you're not

5:56

thrilled the fight. and for example, assault

5:58

rifles are still legal or. You're

6:00

in love that hasn't changed or

6:03

he's. Just. Too old and

6:05

you're sick of the Dnc supporting establishment candidate

6:07

for don't align with your value than a

6:09

real meaningful way and don't understand that intersectionality

6:11

a key branding oppression. What do you jail

6:13

to me as still think it's time for

6:16

us to stop living in fear and to

6:18

let it be known that true progressive in

6:20

this country. Will. Be bullied into choosing

6:22

people they don't really want election after election

6:24

like was sort of democracy or read and

6:26

if that's the best we can deal you

6:29

know has his ashes. Marty one shouldn't we

6:31

be putting our energy and for finding. Candidates.

6:33

That really aligned with our values and letting

6:36

it be known that we won't be subjected

6:38

to anymore, I am genuinely curious are your

6:40

thoughts because as you said the next two

6:42

months are going to be consumed with is

6:45

obviously I'm not interested in another Donald Trump

6:47

presidency. But. I I really still

6:49

stuck between. be true to what

6:51

I know, it's right, And.

6:53

The system that we set up. Suits.

6:56

Him his progress. It's have to

6:58

vote for by the feel like

7:00

they have to vote for Biden

7:02

in November to prevent Trump from

7:04

returning to White house. hasn't fascism

7:06

already? One incident we just greece

7:08

diskettes dancer the fastest. Know

7:10

we shouldn't. Actual fascism would be

7:13

much worse than a current states

7:15

are. I didn't start by saying

7:17

to the listener that is that

7:19

I maybe I'm projecting some anger

7:21

and to other people that as

7:23

is not muscle about her. I

7:25

totally sympathize with the perspective of

7:27

some it's a Palestinian American and

7:29

looking what's happening over there and

7:31

being very frustrated and kind of

7:33

wondering when our sins are totally

7:35

it's a horrific situations I totally

7:38

sympathize with that. and i guess

7:40

i'll also say i don't think she said

7:42

when she moved to december she lived to

7:44

did not see his answers so a lot

7:46

of what i'm about to say next is

7:49

totally moods if you have in seattle gave

7:51

you wanna just send a message to joe

7:53

biden as a seattle voter that's fine i

7:55

could but when it comes to people that

7:58

actually have agency over stopping donald trump in

8:00

the states that are gonna matter in this election. I'm

8:03

gonna name them right now. Pennsylvania, Wisconsin,

8:05

Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, and Georgia,

8:07

those seven. But also probably if you're

8:09

in Texas or Florida or like Minnesota

8:11

or New Mexico, just to be safe,

8:13

couple of the borderline ones, maybe you

8:15

should also listen to this advice. If

8:17

you're in a deep blue state, just

8:20

you know, you can do whatever makes you

8:22

feel happy. But if you are in one

8:24

of these other states, my message is that

8:26

voting is not actually about self-actualization and making

8:28

your heart sing. Like voting

8:30

is about picking between the better choice of the

8:32

options on the table. And this

8:34

has happened a lot in life. And for

8:37

some reason, voting has gotten wrapped up into

8:39

this kind of like, it's part of my

8:41

identity and I just, I should do

8:43

what feels right in all of this. And

8:45

I see this from conservatives all the time, by

8:48

the way, my never Trump conservatives are like, I'm

8:50

gonna write in Ronald Reagan because Joe Biden doesn't

8:52

make my heart sing. And I said the same

8:54

message to them, which is like, no, voting is

8:57

like any other decision in life where you have

8:59

two choices, or some maybe

9:01

three sometimes, and you're trying to decide.

9:03

And maybe for certain people, they're bad choice. Like for me, it's

9:05

not that bad of a choice. I think Joe Biden's clearly better than

9:07

Donald Trump. But if for you, it's two bad choices. It's like, what

9:09

if you have a kid and you live

9:11

in a district that has terrible public

9:14

schools and you also don't really have enough money

9:16

to pay for private schools, right? Like

9:18

you have two bad options and you have to pick.

9:20

Like this happens every day. Like what if you're driving

9:22

down the highway and all they have is an RBS

9:24

or a subway? Like you got to pick between our

9:26

ways of subby or you can starve, right? Like you

9:28

have to pick. And in

9:30

this situation, the choice is so clear.

9:32

And because of the nature of the

9:34

coalition that we have to put together

9:37

with people that go from Bernie

9:39

Sanders to Liz Cheney, like

9:42

a lot of people are not gonna be happy

9:44

with their choice and are gonna have to buck

9:46

up and make the right choice in this case

9:48

because the threat of Donald Trump is so, so,

9:50

so great. And in

9:52

a country of 330 something million

9:54

people, when you only have two parties, It's

9:57

actually pretty rare that you have a candidate.

10:00

Your heart thing. I think we're kind of

10:02

lucky our again to have an eight. I

10:04

think we all that forget how lucky we

10:06

are. The Ike all lot of liberal them

10:08

lot of me moderates had a killer the

10:10

made our hearts saying and that's always going

10:13

to be that says rate school What is

10:15

What do you see The people there who

10:17

who I have always consistently forever said pick

10:19

the lesser of two evils. Sometimes the lesser

10:21

of two evils makes your heart sing. Sometimes

10:23

it's Obama in two thousand and eight is

10:26

some not. The lesser of two evils is

10:28

just less fuckin' See the evil and. My

10:30

heart aches for this color to

10:33

be a Palestinian Americans at this

10:35

moment to see people. In.

10:37

This country who don't give a

10:39

shit about the suffering of the

10:42

Palestinians because of. What?

10:44

Hamas did, and Israel's response.

10:47

Must just be heart

10:49

rending. Is.

10:51

Not going to get better for Palestinians

10:53

If Donald Trump is President Donald Trump

10:55

has said he thinks Israel should quote

10:57

unquote Finish the job. Jared Kushner, who

11:00

will probably returned to the White House

11:02

has said that everybody in Gaza should

11:04

be removed from Gaza Us to some

11:06

place else to be identified later and

11:08

all that waterfront property should be developed.

11:10

Condos A be more lago, Gaza, Mara

11:13

Gaza Us That's what they have in

11:15

mind. He. Had a Muslim ban

11:17

such a greater. It's such an obvious lead

11:19

to me, not as a Palestinian, the American

11:21

who is not aching the way you color

11:23

or eating. At this moment it seems to

11:26

me the obvious choice is Biden and as

11:28

three couple the other things the color race

11:30

assault rifles are still legal because Biden is

11:32

not a dictator and you gotta get Congress

11:34

to act on that blood. Biden

11:37

has forgiven. To. The

11:39

student loan debt of forty million Americans

11:41

with average of twenty k forgiven. That

11:43

has happened. How do I hear this

11:45

all the time? Like Biden, Promise to

11:47

forgive student loan debt that went all

11:49

the way up to the supreme court

11:51

the way they wanted to do it.

11:53

Recently They said they weren't allowed to

11:55

do it's is unconstitutional. Biden found a

11:57

workaround and is forgiven. Billions.

11:59

And. We the billions of dollars they're still by

12:01

the way damn I hate that kind of I

12:03

stood still my former republican islam in their of

12:05

don't like do we we I was I really

12:07

the right call. I don't really think so but

12:09

I'm going of over Joe Biden. I disagreed with

12:11

a that's that's it You're never gonna do their

12:14

beyond reason I buy. Did you that those are

12:16

true He did he did. I have friends who

12:18

student debt has been relieved and I've told them

12:20

I hope that they're donating some of that to

12:22

job and reelection campaign and gonna go Other knock

12:24

on doors begun to and you went on through

12:26

your assault rifles or so ago and this is

12:28

an issue I've I've gone pretty rough frankly. Out

12:30

I would be for banning assault rifles. Joe

12:32

Biden did do something. He passed the first

12:35

bipartisan gun bill and a quarter century and

12:37

let me tell you, I know they might

12:39

feel like small ball z will given the

12:41

nature of the of the threat of gun

12:43

violence out here. I get that that I

12:46

grew up a mile from Columbine and after

12:48

the Columbine shooting, those two boys got their

12:50

guns from a gunshot and there's this whole

12:52

debate about the gun show loophole feels kind

12:55

of nineties. Even mention the gun show loophole,

12:57

right? That's how long as debate isn't this

12:59

bill close. The Gun Show Loophole

13:01

Twenty five years later. A

13:03

democracy takes time. I progress

13:05

takes time. And Joe Biden.

13:08

Has been you know a a pretty accomplished

13:10

president and the grand scheme of things. I

13:12

think he's tried to move the ball as

13:14

much as he could on a lot of

13:16

progress initiatives given the fact that republicans of

13:19

the house right now and even when he

13:21

had a full control of congress he the

13:23

senate that had like of the had the

13:25

know is zero vote majority in one of

13:27

the center's was Joe Manchin is practically republic

13:29

spread so like a heated the best city

13:31

to that another sees gotten a lot of

13:33

stuff done on student loans on environment they

13:35

pass I said lives don't talk about this

13:37

enough they to ask the. Biggest ice

13:39

investment in clean energy in the

13:41

nation's history. In a in a

13:44

in the inflation reduction acts in

13:46

this isn't the chips I'd so

13:48

so do the difference between men

13:51

and Donald Trump. The.

13:53

Danger of Donald Trump. As. I

13:55

get that you can read well. There's already some

13:57

tests ice. We don't

13:59

know. if Donald Trump

14:01

would leave if he gets in there again.

14:03

Okay, we really don't know. We

14:06

don't know, January 6th might look like small

14:08

ball compared to what happens in January of

14:10

2029 if Donald

14:12

Trump gets in there and if we survive that wrong.

14:14

Donald Trump doesn't believe that climate change is a problem

14:17

and is gonna roll back as much

14:19

of that as possible. Donald Trump has

14:21

plans the biggest deportation effort in

14:25

history that he's modeling

14:27

off Operation Wetback, the

14:29

racist name, like the term,

14:31

where he said that he only wants immigrants

14:33

from the good countries like Denmark recently. Okay,

14:36

Donald Trump is an avowed, in

14:38

fairness, the multicultural paradise that is

14:40

Switzerland. Many languages there. And

14:43

he said that there are gonna be deportation camps. So

14:46

again, is that gonna alleviate the suffering

14:49

of the Palestinians now? Well, it

14:51

is gonna create additional suffering

14:53

here in America for

14:56

marginalized people, people that are in

14:59

real threat, immigrants, trans folks. And

15:02

he's also not gonna do anything to help him

15:04

if you get the suffering of the Palestinians. And

15:06

he might make the world more dangerous because he

15:08

plans to take us out of all of our

15:10

alliances inside of Putin and Ukraine, and we can

15:12

all get into all that. So like, he's objectively

15:14

worse. Not only will he alleviate the suffering of

15:17

the Palestinians, he will accelerate. He will accelerate, thank

15:19

you. Of the Palestinians. It is terrible now. It

15:21

will get worse if Donald Trump

15:24

is in the White House. There was a brief

15:26

ceasefire in Gaza that Biden

15:29

got everyone to agree to. It was too brief.

15:31

We need a ceasefire. We need to use

15:33

more of the leverage we have over Israel. It

15:36

does seem like the Biden administration is coming

15:38

around to using more of that leverage as it

15:40

gets more and more outrageous, more pressure on

15:42

Netanyahu to get the fuck out. But the

15:44

idea, and caller again, some

15:46

of the tenseness and the

15:49

tone of my voice and Tim's voice is

15:51

not directed at you. Recognize

15:53

the pain that you're in. I

15:55

get this all the time from my progressive friends, that

15:57

I can't be bullied anymore with the lesser of two.

16:00

evils. It's like, okay, so the

16:02

greater evil them? And no recognition

16:04

of progress, progressives. Progress is always

16:06

incremental because there's no leap forward

16:08

to utopia. And so

16:10

many progressives don't understand that progress

16:12

is by definition an

16:15

incremental process. And there's

16:17

this frustration expressed by so many progressives

16:19

that there isn't a switch that the

16:21

Democratic president can flip that gives us

16:23

everything we want all at once. And

16:25

if we don't get everything we want

16:27

all at once, we were cheated.

16:30

Can I also just say, also, if it

16:32

makes it feel like we're jumping on progressives,

16:35

I'm just as mad as the right

16:37

wingers who make the same argument to me.

16:40

Again, I'm not trying to create any equivalencies,

16:42

but I've had a conversation that

16:44

sounded exactly like that caller, but from a

16:46

right wing perspective from a Jewish person who's

16:48

like, Joe Biden hasn't been supportive enough of

16:50

Bibi. I know some progressive people listening to

16:52

that guy, come on, are you kidding me?

16:54

But Joe Biden has been nudging Bibi to

16:56

show restraint and Joe Biden has been trying

16:58

to, whatever, appeal to the Dearborn

17:01

protesters, Muslim protesters, right?

17:04

And these Jewish folks will say, well, I hate Trump,

17:06

I don't like Trump, but I have to go with

17:08

him because of that. And I don't like what Biden

17:10

did on student loans, I don't like what he did

17:13

on Afghanistan. And my message to them is exactly the

17:15

same. It's like, this is crazy. You

17:17

can't trust Donald Trump to be

17:19

any better for you. Donald Trump

17:21

is a walking disaster. He had

17:23

lunch with anti-Semites. All right, Nick

17:25

Fuentes, like Donald

17:28

Trump is... Nick Fuentes

17:30

who has called for the execution of all

17:32

American Jews. Yes. Donald Trump had

17:34

lunch with that dude. All Americans

17:36

who are not Christians, so Muslim

17:38

Americans, Palestinian Americans, too, the

17:41

people that Donald Trump is having

17:43

lunch with calling for your execution and

17:45

you were thinking about voting for Donald

17:48

Trump because assault rifles

17:50

and you haven't read anything about what's

17:52

actually happened with student loans. Again,

17:55

Connor, I'm not talking... I'm not talking you with that.

17:57

I've heard that from a million of my friends. who

18:00

are like, they didn't do anything on student loans. And I'm like, can

18:02

you Google that right now in front of me on your phone?

18:05

And Tim, I gotta push back. The

18:07

workaround he found was forgiving the

18:09

interest. People have paid back the

18:11

loan that they got. But they've

18:13

turned them into 0% loans,

18:16

which to me. Should

18:18

we be, should we be Relating

18:20

any doctor's loans? Could we be

18:22

leaving any doctor's loans? Probably not.

18:24

Yes, yes, yes we should. Yes,

18:26

we should. Because an educated populace

18:28

benefits everyone in that population. It

18:31

is why people in Europe,

18:33

why European governments understand that

18:36

you shouldn't crush people who

18:38

are going to college with debt. Well, I agree

18:40

with that. To be able to get education. We

18:42

can fight about this. This is the point. This

18:44

is the point. We're gonna need 70 million people

18:47

to vote for Joe Biden. To stop actual fascism

18:49

for happening. And some of us are gonna disagree

18:51

on stuff. And I just wanna

18:53

circle back to the top point about

18:55

there's Liz Cheney and there's Bernie Sanders.

18:58

These two people agree on basically

19:00

nothing. I'm sure they could find

19:02

an issue. If you're going through issue major, I'm

19:04

sure they could find one thing they agree on.

19:06

But they agree on basically nothing. And

19:08

they're both gonna be, I expect, speaking

19:10

of the Democratic National Convention for Joe

19:12

Biden. And they're gonna be doing so

19:15

because he is so much better than the alternative. And

19:17

both of them have spoken clearly about this. And both

19:19

of them said that they have policy disagreements with Joe

19:21

Biden on a range of issues.

19:23

Opposite sometimes. I bet Liz Cheney's mad at Joe Biden for

19:26

not being stronger with Israel. And

19:28

Bernie has said that he's been mad at him

19:30

for not doing more for Gaza. It's just like,

19:32

that's just the nature of this. We have to make

19:34

a choice based on the choice in front of us.

19:37

And it's so clear. And

19:41

the risk is so great. And so

19:43

I would point you to those examples

19:46

and just understand that no matter

19:49

whether you're on the Liz Cheney or the Bernie side of this,

19:52

you're in this coalition with people that

19:54

you guys are gonna have to make some compromises, everybody's

19:56

gonna have to make compromises to try to make this

19:58

work or else you're... going to give the real

20:01

fascists the power. And they're not

20:03

fully unified, as we see in Congress. The

20:05

Republicans have a lot of disagreements on a

20:07

lot of things, but they're pretty much unified

20:09

on a few things, like deportation and

20:12

giving Donald Trump all the power possible

20:15

and trying to put limits on democracy

20:17

and access to voting and screwing

20:19

over trans people. Like, there's a handful of

20:21

really bad things that the Republicans are totally

20:23

united on that they'll be happy to inflict

20:26

on the country with Donald Trump

20:28

in power, despite the fact that

20:30

he has been indicted four times and tried to coup. It's

20:33

just, it's crazy. So we just gotta, we gotta

20:35

all be grownups. We just, we do. We gotta

20:37

all make sacrifices. I gotta

20:40

just, Joe Biden wants to give

20:42

my tax money to

20:44

somebody that ran up $160,000 in debt, doing

20:48

sociology, and then decided that they

20:50

wanted to sell their penis art

20:52

on Instagram, and that doesn't make

20:55

$160,000 back. If

20:57

Joe Biden wants to do that, I don't think that's

20:59

great public policy, but that's fine with me, because

21:01

it's better than fucking Donald Trump. You

21:04

know, I got into an argument with a friend about

21:06

this very topic, who said to

21:08

me, you would never compromise on

21:10

gay marriage. You would never support a candidate

21:12

who opposed marriage equality. And I looked at

21:14

him and I was like, in 2008, Barack

21:16

Obama was running for fucking president, and

21:23

he said he opposed marriage equality

21:25

because when a man married a woman, God

21:27

was present, dot, dot, dot. Begging the question,

21:30

who's fucking there when a man marries a

21:32

man? Beelzebub? Bring a Panthers? Maybe

21:35

nobody. It was the most insulting

21:37

framing, and the most buying

21:40

into religious right, conservative arguments about marriage

21:42

equality. I wrote that man a $5,000

21:44

fucking dollar check in 2008, and

21:46

voted for him. Didn't you all, were you, I don't know how long

21:49

I aged you. You were voting in 96, right? I

21:53

voted in Walter Mondale. Yeah,

21:55

Clinton passed, you're looking great,

21:57

Dan. For Walter Mondale, though?

22:00

You look amazing. 1990s

22:02

and Clinton passed fucking Doma. Don't

22:06

ask, don't tell. After

22:09

he can end the Defense of Marriage Act. And

22:12

I would have voted for

22:14

him again because the alternative

22:16

was far, far worse

22:19

for queer people. So to anybody out there

22:21

who's thinking, you know, I'm here, I'm talking

22:23

to a caller who's obviously in a lot

22:25

of pain and distress about what's going on

22:27

in Gaza. And I ache. I also ache

22:29

for the families

22:31

of the hostages that are still somewhere

22:33

being held captive in torture in Gaza

22:35

who need to be released as

22:38

a condition of the ceasefire that I would like to see happen.

22:40

But I've had people say to me like,

22:42

you would never compromise. You would never on this

22:44

issue, on your issue vote for the lesser of

22:46

two evils. And like, no, no, I did over

22:49

and over and over again. And that's how

22:51

you move the ball. That's how you make

22:53

incremental progress around, you

22:55

know, we supported the candidates for president

22:57

for national office who were better on

22:59

gay stuff and eventually got to a

23:02

place where we were able to support

23:04

candidates who were everything we wanted on

23:06

gay stuff, who were great on gay

23:08

stuff. That's how you make that kind

23:10

of incremental progress, where then you fucking

23:12

win. All right.

23:14

I hope you enjoyed that part of my conversation

23:17

with Tim Miller. If you'd like to hear the

23:19

rest of my conversation with Tim

23:21

Miller, go to savage.love and become

23:23

a magnum savage lovecast subscriber.

23:25

Now think of the bragging rights. You

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can tell your friends you're one of

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Dan Savage's subs. Another perk you'll get

23:32

to hear me and Tim Miller talk

23:34

about Christine Dick when we

23:36

get around to getting some sex advice, which,

23:38

you know, after four appearances on the savage

23:40

lovecast and sex and politics, Tim Miller is

23:42

getting really, really good

23:45

at. Hope you enjoyed that

23:47

taste. Hope you're tempted to become a sub

23:49

right now at Savage.Love.