0:00

Hey, micro Savage Lovecast listeners. This

0:02

week we're giving you a little

0:04

taste, more like a keeping serving

0:06

actually, of the kind of convos

0:08

Magnum subs get to enjoy here on Sex

0:10

and Politics, our bonus podcast for our paid

0:12

subscribers. We're sharing this part of

0:14

my conversation with author Rob Henderson with you.

0:17

I hope you enjoy it and we hope

0:19

it inspires you to think about becoming one

0:22

of my subs. You're

0:24

listening to Sex and Politics at

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savage.love. Sex

0:32

and Politics. You

0:34

know, I don't know who is more

0:36

surprised Rob Henderson when we asked him

0:38

to come on the show or me

0:40

when Rob Henderson agreed to come on

0:42

the show. Henderson writes the Rob Henderson

0:44

newsletter on Substack and he is the author

0:47

of Troubled, a memoir of foster

0:49

care, family, and social class, which

0:52

is out now. Rob

0:54

had a rough early life, which

0:56

we talk about before Rob wound

0:58

up at Yale where he

1:00

arrived, not with a chip on his shoulder,

1:02

but with an outsider's eye. He

1:04

graduated from Yale four years later with, depending on

1:06

your point of view, either a chip on his

1:09

shoulder or a stinging and

1:11

legitimate critique of the elites, which

1:14

Rob is now by dent of his

1:16

education and his success as a thinker

1:18

and public intellectual, definitely a

1:20

part of whether he likes it or not.

1:23

This is Sex and Politics. I'm Dan Savage.

1:25

This is a special bonus podcast we do

1:27

for Magnum subscribers of the Savage Lovecast. If

1:29

you can hear my voice, you are a

1:31

Magnum sub. Thank you so much for your

1:33

support. Our last two guests here on

1:36

Sex and Politics, Tim Miller, Cat

1:39

Rosenfield, perceived as, I guess

1:41

in Tim Miller's case, a right-winger, used

1:43

to be a highly placed Republican operative, worked for

1:45

George Bush, had white wine spritzers and hotel lobby

1:48

once with another than Lindsey

1:51

Graham. Tim is now the

1:53

host of the Bulwerks flagship podcast,

1:55

the Bulwerk Cat Rosenfield, novelist, podcaster,

1:57

columnist, perceived, I think, inaccurately.

2:00

As centre right accuse sometimes being

2:02

right, right? Anyway, those were last

2:04

two guests and after those shows,

2:06

I got some pushback. Why so

2:08

many right leaning, a right recovering

2:11

guests on the show? Why so

2:13

many guests to my right? Politically?

2:15

Why not some guests? To my

2:17

last, Why not a communist or

2:19

socialist? I. Like to think that

2:21

on the Socialist on the show in the

2:23

style of mainstream European Socialist parties, but I

2:26

did that critique to heart. We need to

2:28

get some commies in here and we will.

2:31

But. Not this week because I

2:33

wanted to talk to Rob about

2:35

his E books and about his

2:37

concept. The concept is most famous

2:39

for of luxury Believes these arm

2:41

as Rob rights police, the weeds

2:43

hold that cost them nothing but

2:45

inflict damage on the working class.

2:47

And among the things that Rob

2:50

Henderson has identified as a luxury

2:52

belief is non monogamy. Open.

2:54

Relationships Being monogamous, polyamory, I wanted to

2:56

have him on have a conversation about

2:59

that and to really drill down. Rob

3:01

has appeared on a lot of other

3:03

podcasts the few weeks after his book

3:06

came out which I read and which

3:08

I really really was very moved by

3:10

and the his sort of dinging of

3:13

non monogamy is a luxury belief that

3:15

does damage to the working class was

3:17

mentioned. buds never really unpacked, never drill

3:20

down on and that's why I wanted

3:22

to have him on the show. Because

3:24

I wanted to drill down on parts.

3:26

And we do. I hope you enjoy

3:29

my conversation with Rob Henderson. Rob

3:32

a welcome to the Shower really pressure you

3:34

being here. Thinks. Think to be here. You

3:37

said the head. That seems that you're

3:39

concerned we might argue and center had

3:41

a piece for me to read before

3:43

we spoke. In addition to the book

3:45

called you're Not the Person I am

3:47

judging successor Thank you for that. Yeah

3:49

well as you you had sent a

3:51

couple of calls and I've I've read

3:53

about you and it I, I, I

3:55

just I think people sometimes mistakenly think

3:57

that I am. they sort of hard

3:59

nosed. I've. For social conservative or something

4:01

and I in our i don't I don't

4:03

think of myself in that way I'm in

4:05

I It sounds like you've read my book

4:07

early parts of it and I think some

4:09

of that does come through that I'm in

4:11

are not his finger wagging person but I

4:13

do have some strong beliefs around kids and

4:15

family in those kinds of things. You.

4:17

Know going into this. It's not that

4:19

I'm afraid that we're going to argue

4:21

the whole time and argue, but everything.

4:24

I'm afraid that we're gonna spend too

4:26

much time. Agreed to mud some kind

4:28

of freak outs my listeners because you

4:30

are sorted pegged right now as I

4:32

don't know on the conservative side, but

4:34

you're on a conservative side of some

4:36

family. Issues. The importance of

4:38

family stability constancy, which I think it's

4:40

a really unsung virtue selling up, being

4:42

there and being the same every day

4:44

forward at least the first fifteen. twenty

4:46

years for your kids has the person

4:48

you were the day before. I think

4:50

all those things are important, and I

4:52

wrote about those things in my memoir

4:55

about adopting a My Memoir about marriage

4:57

in my family. Ah, and back then

4:59

when those books came out, some people

5:01

attacked me for being socially conservative and

5:03

overvaluing are emphasizing too much importance of

5:05

the two parent home. Yeah, I. Mean.

5:07

I guess I wrote this book, you

5:09

know, not even trying to have a

5:11

political angle. The words conservative or liberal

5:13

or any of those things is no

5:15

politically charged labels in the book. It

5:17

was more just my first hand experiences

5:19

growing up without family and stability and

5:21

what that did? To. Me and seeing

5:24

the lives of my friends, my foster

5:26

sibling, so many of the young people

5:28

that I grew up with and how

5:30

their lives and their life trajectory is

5:32

and how they they they ended up

5:34

and see I just I just think

5:36

family such an important pieces of the

5:38

puzzle and in our early life that

5:40

often doesn't gets discussed that much in

5:42

educated circles and son trying to get

5:44

people to speak more about it. And.

5:47

It doesn't get discussed much Nantucket circles because

5:49

at least an educated circles the contained to

5:51

be taken for granted. I'm backing way up

5:53

your best not to the concept of luxury

5:55

beliefs and we're going to get to that's

5:57

and one particular it's and you describes a

5:59

luxury police. In a minute. but first

6:01

for listeners of mine. For people who

6:03

may not be listening to Jordan Peterson

6:05

podcast or picking up books blurbs by

6:08

Jd Vance and tell us about yourself,

6:10

your background and your your story growing

6:12

up which is what the book is

6:14

mostly about. It's a memoir, mostly about

6:16

your childhood and then kind of an

6:18

introduction to your philosophy or much we

6:21

believe stare at the end and of

6:23

acid once would give us the background.

6:25

Yeah. Yeah, think stand out so you

6:28

know. I recently received a phd

6:30

from the University of Cambridge on

6:32

a good scholarship. Went to jail

6:34

for undergrad and sort of spent

6:36

the last few years in and

6:38

around these elite universities. by. before

6:40

that my wife was a lot

6:42

different. You're backing way up. I

6:44

was born into poverty and Oss

6:46

Angeles never knew my father to

6:48

this day, never met him and

6:50

so my. Birth. Mother. She and

6:52

I were homeless for a time and then

6:54

we'll have been a car and then by

6:57

the time I was old enough to for

6:59

memories are we had settled in a slum

7:01

apartments and alway yeah my our and I

7:03

may have a lot of misinformation because later

7:06

I received this sort of thick document full

7:08

of information from social workers and forensic psychologist

7:10

and all the people who are involved in

7:12

my case when I was in the system

7:15

and away. Ah, but my mom woods timey

7:17

to a chair. Our. While she

7:19

got high so that I know couldn't

7:21

couldn't interrupt her of eventually some some

7:23

neighbors called the police. You know they

7:25

heard this kid screaming in his apartment

7:28

and it was me and the police

7:30

arrived and now they arrested her and

7:32

they asked her and she was also

7:34

asked by some forensically up psychologists. where's

7:36

this boy's father? He did no harm

7:38

she I had no idea who he

7:41

was. He would have people coming in

7:43

and out of the apartments at all

7:45

hours of the day or night trading

7:47

favors for drugs and. So do

7:49

you? Actually quite recently I did learn something

7:51

about my biological father. so I took a

7:54

twenty three me genetic ancestry test and my

7:56

whole life I grew up thinking of, you

7:58

know, kind of biracial mixed race, the America

8:00

might. My mother was from Korea from saw

8:03

she came to the Us as a young

8:05

woman to study and and started partying and

8:07

her life kind of unravels. My father I

8:09

learned from this this task, or he was

8:11

I Hispanic on half hispanic, half Mexican on

8:14

my father's side, but that was a recent

8:16

piece of information. I spent the next five

8:18

years after I was taken from my mother's

8:20

care in seven different foster homes. Oliver away

8:23

and I describe my experiences. Some of these

8:25

homes had upwards of eight or ten kids

8:27

living in them, A lot of kind of

8:29

squalor. And disorders and I recently read

8:32

that L A actually is the most

8:34

overburdened among sort of large cities and

8:36

and and from the foster care like

8:38

like of places for kids. I don't

8:40

know if that was the case the

8:42

nineties but I do remember some these

8:44

homes you sort of teeming with kids

8:46

and not a lot of oversight. or

8:48

then Chile I was adopted by this working

8:50

class family. We settled in this dusty

8:52

blue collar town in Northern California called

8:54

Red Blasts. It's in one of the

8:56

poorest counties in California. Men my adopted

8:58

passer very working class. My adoptive. Father

9:00

was a truck driver, my adoptive

9:02

mom was an assistant social worker

9:04

and so. They. Eventually

9:06

divorced my adoptive father stopped speaking with

9:08

me and I was nine years old

9:10

by this point and after never knowing

9:12

my father and all of the foster

9:14

homes and then you know this man

9:16

who I was happy to call bad

9:19

attitude option for him to suddenly stop

9:21

speaking with me simply because he was

9:23

angry at my mother for leaving him

9:25

and that was his way of retaliating

9:27

at her was to cut off communication

9:29

with me and I was hard as

9:31

it as a nine year old boy

9:33

and there were so much sort of

9:35

acid. Which we can get into if

9:37

you want. But there's a lot of sort

9:39

of separations and divorces and financial catastrophes. And

9:42

in the meantime, you know I was responding

9:44

to all of this the way that young

9:46

boys often do, which is a lot of

9:48

misadventures with my friends, a lot of drugs,

9:51

a lot of drinking and driving, a lot

9:53

of vandalism fights. I barely graduated high school

9:55

and sort of path impulsive decision to enlist

9:57

in the Us. Air Force. And then when.

10:00

The only guy though after that by it

10:02

was just a really strange and unusual path

10:04

to higher education. It's. The

10:06

sort of story where people. Say.

10:08

Bullshit. Like there were miracles along the

10:10

way. There was hard work on the

10:12

way. You really. And

10:15

a couple of Crusoe people said something

10:17

out loud to have one teacher got

10:19

you. To start reading any

10:21

became all this time. through all this

10:23

chaos of the races reader I was

10:25

really floored. Not Florida was just a

10:27

in on admiration when you describe working

10:29

in a restaurant as a teenager and

10:31

start comparing experiences you're having working that

10:33

restaurant to what you read and George

10:35

Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and

10:37

London which is a book I read.

10:40

After. Working in restaurants for fifteen years

10:42

and I read it when I was

10:44

thirties I wasn't reading or well when

10:46

I was fourteen mom reading the book.

10:49

We all kind of know anything. This

10:51

makes us all complicit in the horrors

10:54

of the foster care systems. We all

10:56

kind of know that it's not great.

10:58

It's not ideals that it's a city

11:00

thing, that system to consign vulnerable children

11:03

to the we tend not to think

11:05

about it is it's a little bit

11:07

like we don't think about prisons and

11:09

how destructive to human beings. prisons can

11:11

be almost by design and reading page

11:14

for the book. You know that was

11:16

the first place I had to stop

11:18

and how to take a breath When

11:20

used to said that kids get shuffled

11:23

around in foster care, they get moved

11:25

from home to home intentionally. And.

11:27

So why Why.

11:30

To. Kids get shuffled around intentionally.

11:33

Why? Does that happen? Explain it in

11:35

the book that explain of fresno? Yeah well.

11:38

Often. ah what happens when

11:40

a kid isn't the system is someone from

11:42

the family of origin renters the picture either

11:45

the parents are you know l and a

11:47

lot of cases perhaps even the majority what

11:49

the reason why a kid is play cynicism

11:51

the first places because the pair easily the

11:54

mother has or difficulties with addiction or mental

11:56

illness and so me up maybe the mother

11:58

sobers ops and and is in a position

12:00

to care for the child or

12:03

an aunt or a grandmother or someone is able

12:05

to offer care while the kid is in the

12:07

system. But if a

12:09

child is in a foster home for

12:11

too long, there can be

12:13

difficulties around loyalty and attachment where a child,

12:15

if they've lived with a foster family for

12:17

a year and they feel kind of emotionally

12:19

invested in that family and then suddenly their

12:21

family member, father, someone enters and says, hey,

12:23

okay, I can take care of the kid

12:26

now. The kid often doesn't want to leave.

12:28

On the other side of that, there's also

12:30

the foster parents who, if they've been taking

12:33

care of this small child for a year,

12:35

they're often reluctant to let them go. And

12:37

so the system kind of organically created this,

12:42

less than ideal solution, which is essentially

12:45

to move a child very

12:47

frequently every few months, in

12:49

some cases, even just a few weeks, in

12:51

order to prevent any attachment and any bond

12:53

from forming so that if and when someone

12:56

from the family of origin does ranch the

12:58

picture, the child will be happy to just go

13:00

back with them. That seems

13:02

insane. The

13:05

trauma of disrupting a bond that may have

13:07

developed between a foster child and

13:09

a foster parent would

13:11

seem the lesser trauma than preventing

13:14

a child from ever bonding with

13:16

anyone. If a child

13:18

is going to be, as you were, because of

13:20

your circumstances, in the

13:22

foster care system for a very long time, or

13:24

sometimes permanently, we hear about kids who age out

13:26

of the foster care system all

13:29

the time. And it

13:31

just seems sadistically

13:34

backwards somehow, that

13:36

to be torn away from, you

13:39

had, there were other kids in foster care that

13:41

you would bond with or develop a

13:44

kind of patterns and routines with, and a

13:47

comfort with, or a foster parent, and then for

13:49

the state to reach in and yank

13:51

you from that, yank you from the school that you

13:53

were going to, and drop you in a whole new

13:55

place where you had to Reassess. I

13:57

Mean, the cortisone levels in. The.

14:00

You must have had to ride out when you

14:02

were four and five and six and seven. Yet

14:06

wealth there a couple of difficulties their

14:08

are that comes to mind. I mean

14:10

one was sort of personally being relocated

14:13

in, shuffled around to different homes, the

14:15

other was Sometimes I would befriend my

14:17

foster siblings and become close with them

14:19

and in a weed rely on one

14:21

another and we were alex. Kill ya

14:24

again Autism said just lots of kids

14:26

and the foster parents attention as often

14:28

spread very thin and so we were

14:30

sort of watching out for each other.

14:32

and then one of my foster siblings

14:34

would be taken. To another placement or or

14:37

be returned with someone in their family. And

14:39

so not only day to day did I

14:41

not know where I was going to be

14:43

living, but I also didn't know if I'd

14:45

wake up tomorrow and one of my foster

14:47

siblings who I really liked would be taken

14:49

to. And so that level of sort of

14:51

extreme uncertainty it does. sort of. It burns

14:53

a lot of physiological resources in a kid

14:55

and so it I get to. The other

14:58

thing is my system note that might my

15:00

my time in the system, rather it was.

15:02

I just think like this is is emblematic

15:04

of how overburdened the foster care. System is

15:06

especially large cities, which is, you know, it

15:08

should have been apparent very early on that

15:10

I should have been placed for adoption pretty

15:13

much immediately because they couldn't locate my father

15:15

and my mother because it was not. Apparently

15:17

this was not her first arrest him to

15:19

her sort of running with law enforcement with

15:22

drugs and so on. So she was deported

15:24

back to Soul and I was a Us

15:26

citizen. I was born in Los Angeles and

15:28

I was sort of just absorbed into the

15:31

foster system and no one seems to have

15:33

actually sat down and realized that there was

15:35

no. Hope of me ever been returned to

15:37

my family virgin and to a just put

15:39

me for adoption immediately and said what happened

15:41

was an eye and I am Excerpt from

15:44

the letter from this child psychiatrist that I

15:46

was ordered to see by the state of

15:48

California was kind of a mandatory check in

15:50

on that foster kids have to go through

15:52

every so often. But. This doctor

15:54

actually sat down to read my files

15:56

and I'd actually recognize oh you know

15:58

this kid is never ago. To be

16:00

returned to his father or mother or anyone

16:02

in his family and he recommended I be

16:04

placed into Dobson. but I spent sort of

16:06

five years you know, in in in the

16:08

system, sort of rotating in and out of

16:10

homes and that was completely unnecessary. It's just

16:12

because no to did the yeah, there's not

16:15

enough people, not enough resources, not have time

16:17

for people to sort of tailor their approached

16:19

each kid the way that they said. When.

16:22

I was adopting in Terrine. I am

16:24

as my we adopted. The.

16:27

Hoops We had to jump through the. As

16:30

the the things we had to prove

16:32

the psychological profiles, medical backgrounds we had

16:34

to to give the letters of recommendation

16:36

from from friends and family and the

16:38

screening from the agency we'd wouldn't go

16:40

through the state. we went through private

16:42

adoption agencies. Were. So

16:44

thorough that. You.

16:47

Know at some points it's not like

16:49

we would never be allowed to adopt.

16:51

Reading about. Your. Adoption.

16:54

And. I hope this isn't like me being

16:56

classes. I'm working class. Get my dad's a

16:58

cop. like I hope I'm up in classes.

17:00

but reading about your adoption. I.

17:02

Was. You. Know, I was

17:04

so thrilled for you that first year with

17:07

your adoptive parents when. He. Had

17:09

a sibling walked you into what

17:11

would be your own bedroom and.

17:14

Your. Own closed shared toys with you.

17:16

She had a piggy bank that she'd been

17:18

saving money. it in a wooded for her

17:20

first three years of life. the chopper to

17:22

split with you because you didn't have doubts

17:25

and this overwhelming sense it just comes across

17:27

in the book of you. For. The

17:29

first time really since he worked at are

17:31

no three to being able to exhale and

17:33

feel like you belong somewhere and then for

17:35

that all to come apart a year later.

17:38

And. For your adoptive father to

17:40

have in him the ability to

17:42

be so cruel. To.

17:44

This child that he had his. He had not

17:47

bonded with you. He had allowed to bond with

17:49

him. As. A parent.

17:52

Floored, Me because I I think that

17:54

you know based on the screening process Terry

17:56

and I had to go through if we

17:58

had the capacity for such. I

18:00

don't want. It's called the evil in us. It

18:02

would have been flagged and we would not have

18:05

been allowed to adopt. Yeah. And

18:07

I I've never heard this like similar stories

18:09

like this from other people who have been

18:11

adopted or parents you have adopted. You know

18:13

it was, I think a very sort of

18:15

anomalous situation Because be so, let's see if

18:17

I can recall correctly. So they must have

18:19

been married for I think eight years by

18:21

this point. So you know they were. they

18:24

were married, they were both employed, they had

18:26

a young daughter who became my adoptive sister.

18:28

and so I think on paper it all

18:30

kind of looked good. You know we are

18:32

working class, but they were earning enough. They

18:34

were sustained, if you know, financially stable and.

18:36

So. Am I so after the

18:38

divorce? But I can I can understand, sort of

18:40

just yell at first glance at least that they

18:42

do seem to be like you know, perfectly adequate

18:44

married be knows, whatever likely and for the of

18:46

environment they would want out of a foster kid

18:48

or to go to buy to. I try to

18:50

be fair to him and I tried to sort

18:52

of portray sort of every aspect of his character

18:54

that I could remember. but yeah that was Ebina.

18:57

was a shock. I think to my mother that

18:59

he we had that in him. It was a

19:01

shock to me and and my sister and I.

19:03

You know we still talk about that to this

19:05

day just how hot does It Was hard for

19:07

her to. Because she was stolen

19:09

his daughter you know and she was close

19:11

with me and so it was just a

19:13

very part period type of the family man

19:15

you have you have away with it. lightly

19:17

tossed off parent article on it's like a

19:19

dagger to the hearts and page eighty Sexy.

19:22

You. Call him your father. You call

19:24

him your father. And then there's this.

19:27

Break. And and he's done this horrible

19:30

thing. and for a little while after that we

19:32

still call me father's Page eighty six. You're talking

19:34

about being home with your mother and is just

19:36

apparent that uncle that says ten out his name

19:38

of your sister Hannah was with her dad. Or

19:41

are Dad no longer your dad? And.

19:44

Man that just like stop my

19:46

heart and. In such beautiful

19:48

writing. all right there's

19:50

a lot more to my conversation with

19:53

rob henderson make themselves always get a

19:55

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