0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

The Savage Lovecast at savage.love. If

0:05

you're stuck in a relationship

0:07

quandary or if you're looking

0:10

for sexual harmony Well

0:14

there's nothing you can't cast

0:19

on The Savage

0:21

Lovecast I was

0:23

rooting for Croatia. If you don't

0:25

know what I mean by that you weren't glued

0:28

to your TV on Saturday afternoon and you probably

0:30

are straight. If you know what I

0:32

mean by that you are watching TV on Saturday

0:34

afternoon and you are probably gay

0:36

because when I say I was rooting

0:38

for Croatia I am not of

0:41

course referring to the war of Croatian

0:43

succession which raged from 1091 to

0:45

1102. I am

0:47

referring to the pan-European pop song

0:49

contest known as Eurovision which

0:52

has been raging since 1956 minus

0:54

Russia since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 plus

0:58

Australia since 2015 because why

1:00

not and also plus Israel

1:03

which has been a part of the show since

1:05

1973 but whose participation this

1:07

year was predictably controversial.

1:09

I'm gonna quickly re-up here my

1:11

call for a ceasefire in Gaza and

1:13

the release of all Israeli hostages. All

1:16

right Eurovision finals for 2024 were

1:18

on Saturday night if you were in Europe

1:20

Saturday afternoon if you were in North America

1:23

and I am

1:25

very sorry to report that I watched

1:27

Eurovision this weekend instead of going to

1:29

see challengers which makes me a bad

1:31

sex podcaster I still haven't seen challengers

1:34

but a good fag because I watched

1:36

Eurovision and why was I rooting

1:38

for Croatia while I watched Eurovision? It

1:40

wasn't because I liked Croatia's song best

1:43

Rim Tim Taghi Dim performed by singer-songwriter

1:45

baby lasagna. I don't

1:47

like dance music generally but if I had

1:49

to pick a favorite from the show it

1:52

would be Jocko performed by Armenia's La Daniva

1:54

and if I had to pick my favorite

1:56

backup dancer which is a pastime for gay

1:58

Eurovision fans a all

2:00

Eurovision fans, it would be

2:03

that one hot blonde backup dancer in We

2:05

Will Rave, which was Austria's

2:07

entry. All right, I was

2:09

rooting for Croatia because my husband,

2:11

who has been obsessed with Eurovision

2:13

for decades, he was Eurovision's first

2:15

North American fan, he told

2:17

me he wants to go to Eurovision

2:20

next year and see it live

2:22

and in person to mark

2:25

a very special occasion. I'm going

2:28

to recreate our conversation here now. Terry,

2:30

I want to go see Eurovision in

2:32

person next year. Dan, why?

2:35

Terry, because I want to do something special

2:37

for our 30th anniversary. Dan, okay,

2:41

who do you want to go with? Long

2:44

silence. Terry, with

2:47

you asshole. Oh,

2:49

right, Eurovision, with me, so not really

2:51

something for us for our 30th anniversary,

2:53

more something for him for our 30th

2:55

anniversary, which is fine

2:57

because Terry deserves something

2:59

nice for time served.

3:02

So I promise I'm going to get to

3:04

why exactly I was rooting for Croatia sooner

3:07

or later, but I got to

3:09

give you this detail first. The country

3:11

whose song wins this year's contest hosts

3:13

next year's contest and everyone

3:15

predicted that this year's Eurovision would come

3:17

down to a battle between Croatia and

3:20

Switzerland. And since I knew we were

3:22

going to whichever country won,

3:24

I was rooting for Croatia over

3:26

Switzerland because Croatia is

3:29

the cheapest country for tourists to

3:31

visit in Europe and Switzerland, according

3:33

to both Business Insider and budgetyourtrip.com,

3:36

is the single most expensive country to

3:38

visit in Europe by far. Croatia

3:43

came in second. Switzerland came

3:46

in first. Swiss singer-songwriter

3:48

Nemo won with the code,

3:50

making Switzerland's Nemo the world's

3:53

second most famous Nemo after a certain

3:55

animated clownfish. So

3:58

looks Like we're going to Switzerland for. The thirtieth

4:00

Anniversary. instead of visiting the battlefields where

4:02

the War of Croatian Succession was decided.

4:05

Spoiler Alert Croatian lost the war of

4:07

Creation succession he was eight hundred years

4:09

ago. That was a spoiler for you.

4:12

That's your problem, not mine. Your vision

4:14

is always a big night for the

4:16

oh gee, Queers Gay men shows. Always

4:19

been very can't be hugely popular with

4:21

game and the has for making jokes

4:23

about Grinder during this year's show. But

4:26

your vision. Twenty Twenty four A breakthrough

4:28

year. The breakthrough night. For

4:30

the new fangled queers, Nino. The

4:32

winner is non binary and six place

4:35

finisher Bambee Thug who represented Ireland with

4:37

a son that would have sent Tipper

4:39

Gore to the Emergency Room and Nineteen

4:41

Eighty Five is also non binary. And.

4:44

Pest Bambee Dogs angry with the

4:46

heebie you. The European Broadcast Union

4:48

that runs Eurovision for letting Israel

4:51

compete this year and for disqualifying

4:53

the Dutch singer literally the last

4:55

minute. Bambee! Had

4:58

this to say about your of

5:00

his, but the Edu and the

5:02

queers are coming. Twitch.

5:04

I would respond. Okay

5:06

sir, fuck the Edu, But the

5:09

queers are coming to Europe. Isn't

5:11

funny. The queers are already there.

5:13

The queers arrived years ago. Islands'

5:16

Paul Oscar was Your Visions first

5:18

openly gay contestant back in Nineteen

5:21

Ninety Seven when Bambee thug with

5:23

four years old the first trans

5:25

artist to compete at Your Vision

5:28

Dana International. She. Was on

5:30

the show and Nineteen Eighty Eight when

5:32

Bambee dog was five and it was

5:34

Israel that said Dana to Europe as.

5:37

a gay man conchita wurst from austria

5:39

one you're a vision and twenty fourteen

5:41

a bisexual man the netherlands duncan lawrence

5:44

one in twenty nineteen serbia's morale her

5:46

a lesbian one your vision in two

5:48

thousand and seven the rien of sweden

5:50

one twice and twenty twelve and twenty

5:52

twenty three and came out as bisexual

5:55

between her wins look i get it

5:57

non binary people are queer include AFAB

5:59

NB's with AMAB NB partners, queers like

6:01

Bambi Thug. They may be in an

6:03

opposite sex relationship but they are queer

6:06

and their relationship is queer. You can't

6:08

see me right now but I promise

6:10

I am nodding my head and not

6:12

rolling even one of my eyes.

6:14

But if I sound a little

6:17

annoyed it's because I guess I am. Which

6:20

has nothing to do really with Bambi Thug.

6:22

In the last few years I've had to

6:24

listen to gay men complain that queer, as

6:26

an identity, was foisted on us by a

6:29

bunch of non-binary blue-haired NBs. And

6:31

I've had to listen to a bunch of

6:33

non-binary blue-haired NBs on Twitter say that gay

6:35

men aren't really queer. In

6:37

the next tweet they complain about gatekeeping.

6:41

I want to read something here. I want

6:43

to set the record hahaha straight by reading

6:45

something here from a pamphlet called Queers Read

6:47

This that was passed out at the 1990

6:49

New York City Pride

6:51

Parade at the height of the

6:53

AIDS crisis during an epidemic of

6:55

anti-gay hate crimes that reclaimed the

6:57

word queer, that turned the insult

6:59

into an identity that

7:02

unified us. There's

7:04

a section in the pamphlet called

7:06

Why Queer? Gay is

7:09

great, the author's right. It has its

7:11

place. But when a lot

7:13

of lesbians and gay men wake up

7:15

in the morning we feel angry and

7:17

disgusted not gay. So we've chosen to

7:19

call ourselves queer. Queer, unlike gay, doesn't

7:21

mean male. And when spoken to

7:23

other gays and lesbians, it's a

7:25

way of suggesting we close ranks and

7:27

forget our individual differences because we face

7:29

a more insidious common enemy. Queer

7:32

can be a rough word, but it

7:34

is a weapon we can steal from

7:36

the homophobe's hands. Queer

7:39

in 1990 included people the authors

7:41

of Queers Read This overlooked at

7:43

the time, bisexual people and

7:46

trans people, as well as people the

7:48

authors of Queers Read This couldn't have

7:50

seen coming. People like Nemo

7:52

and Baby Thug. So,

7:56

again, setting the record straight, queer

7:58

wasn't imposed on gay men. by

8:00

blue-haired enbies. We reclaimed queer

8:02

with lesbians and popularized its

8:04

use. And non-binary

8:06

blue-haired enbies, I'm sorry. You don't

8:08

get to complain bitterly about gatekeeping

8:10

with one tweet and in the

8:13

next tell gay men we aren't

8:15

queer. I'm sincerely happy to

8:17

see non-binary queer people having their moment

8:19

at Eurovision. I actually loved

8:21

Nemo's song. I only voted against them

8:24

because Switzerland is the single most fucking

8:26

expensive country in Europe for tourists to

8:28

visit. But I do want to

8:30

say for the record that gay men

8:32

and lesbians and bisexuals and trans people,

8:35

the OG queers, not

8:37

only were we already at Eurovision,

8:39

we opened the doors to the

8:42

stages where Nemo and Bambi Thug

8:44

absolutely killed it this weekend.

8:48

All right, coming up on today's show on

8:50

the micro tons of your cues, lots of

8:52

my A's, and on the Magnum Savage Lovecast

8:54

that you can subscribe to at savage.love, Peggy

8:56

Orenstein, author of Boys and Sex and Girls

8:58

and Sex and six or seven

9:00

other books, is here to talk about her recent

9:02

piece in the New York Times on

9:05

the dangerous sexual practice of choking, a piece

9:07

that went insanely viral. And then Peggy sticks

9:09

around to try her hand at giving a

9:11

little sex advice with me. Also,

9:13

we've got a new Sex and Politics coming up

9:16

this Thursday. That's our bonus podcast for Savage Lovecast

9:18

Magnum subscribers, where I

9:20

talk at length about politics with my guests

9:23

joining me for this Sex and Politics. Diana

9:25

Adams, a lawyer who does amazing work

9:27

securing legal rights for queer and poly

9:29

folks and people whose families don't

9:32

fit the heteronormative mold or the homonormative

9:34

mold, for that matter. Magnum subs, you

9:36

will see my conversation with Diana Adams

9:38

pop into your feeds on Thursday. Micro

9:40

listeners, you will also get a little

9:42

taste of that conversation in your feeds.

9:45

And we have a very special treat

9:47

for everyone that we're dropping into our

9:49

show notes, a song from Eurovision 1969, Norway's

9:53

entry, We We We, sung

9:55

by Kirsty Sparbo. I want to thank Ted,

9:57

who brought it to my attention. Ted. wanted

10:00

to make sure I saw it because Sparbo is

10:02

singing about being Tally Amorous. Go

10:04

to the show notes at Savage.love to see

10:06

the video and to hear the song and

10:08

while you're there be sure to check out

10:10

the comment thread on the show and jump

10:12

in with a comment of your own. Alright

10:15

if you're a Magnum sub show starts now if

10:17

you are not yet a Magnum sub gonna have

10:19

to listen to these ads before the start of

10:21

the show. This episode is brought to you by

10:23

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11:01

an exclusive 15% off.

11:04

Hey Dan I'm calling was

11:06

kind of a hygiene question. I recently

11:10

started dating someone who has a

11:12

history of dipping. I've been a

11:14

lot for like six or seven years and

11:17

he recently quit a couple months ago after I

11:19

said that I didn't really like kissing him because

11:21

of it and while

11:23

it's like amazing that he quit I

11:26

still am like really worried about his

11:28

dental health and hygiene and

11:30

I try to do a little bit

11:33

of research but I'm a little concerned about just

11:35

like kissing him and the transfer

11:37

of like bad bacteria from my own

11:39

dental health. I

11:41

don't want to make him feel so conscious about

11:44

it and yet I feel like a little critical

11:47

in this way that I'm like trying

11:49

to work through and ignore but I

11:51

really want him to also go with

11:54

it and like he's

11:56

told me that he knows like that

11:58

dipping has like been eating

12:00

away at his gums and dental

12:03

health is really important. I don't

12:05

know, I don't like necessarily be

12:07

like cosmetically, but I just mean

12:09

like I really want him

12:11

to have like his dental

12:15

health worked on and to

12:17

be doing that work and I don't know if

12:19

I need to be the one motivating it or

12:21

if he should be, but

12:24

I don't want to make him feel bad about it

12:26

and yet it is something that like is

12:29

sometimes like giving me a little bit of the

12:31

ick and I'm just trying to work through that

12:33

because he is a great guy and he can't

12:35

change the fact that he has dipped in the

12:37

past and I am

12:39

so glad that he quit and I don't know

12:42

if I should wait a little bit to bring this

12:44

up or if it's not for me to bring up

12:46

at all. We've heard a

12:48

lot over the years about the dangers of

12:50

secondhand smoke. Haven't heard much

12:53

about the dangers really of secondhand

12:55

dipping. Dipping of

12:58

course is chewing tobacco, people who chew

13:01

tobacco, risk gum disease,

13:03

tongue cancer, terrible bacteria

13:07

growing in their mouth, but I've never heard

13:09

that somebody who ingest

13:11

the saliva through kissing of

13:13

someone who's dipping or had

13:15

dipped, stopped dipping, months ago

13:17

is at any risk

13:20

and I did a little googling,

13:22

checked out what Dr. Google might have to

13:24

say and couldn't find anything. So I don't

13:26

think you're at any

13:28

risk here of him with his

13:31

tongue transferring to your mouth some harmful

13:33

bacteria that has been living in his

13:35

mouth all these months since he stopped

13:38

dipping. I think you'll be fine. I think

13:40

it's just a little residual squicked outedness about

13:42

the fact that he had been dipping when

13:44

you first met and you were kissing him

13:46

and you told him you wanted him to

13:48

quit and he did. He did for

13:51

you and that's a great thing. You probably improved

13:54

his oral hygiene,

13:56

oral health and may have

13:59

Saved. His life

14:01

now. Don't

14:04

hesitate. If. You're gonna be

14:06

the girlfriend if you guys are

14:08

moving towards. That some. Sort of.

14:11

Commitment. Don't hesitate to be.

14:13

The person in his life is as you

14:15

should go to the fucking dead as to

14:17

go to the dentist carry all the time.

14:20

When I complained about an acre a painter

14:22

help thing he. Just. Says

14:24

to me go to the fuck and doctor

14:26

and then a couple of days later has

14:28

he did you make an appointment to go

14:30

the doctor Yeah Moving known as they will

14:32

make that appointment and you know what? The

14:35

irony isn't long term relationships is I do

14:37

the exact same thing back to him. He'll

14:39

complain about something and as he should talk

14:41

to the doctor about that and then couple

14:43

this later of times the doctors is make

14:45

of women as they know the alps nag

14:47

him. That's one of things. Partner supergiants one

14:50

of the reasons married and partnered people live

14:52

longer as if there's somebody there. Saying you've

14:54

been complaining about that anyway since case

14:56

his gums the recession of his guns

14:58

because of the dipping. For a while

15:00

you need to get checked out by

15:02

the dentist. go to the dentist and

15:04

what is signaling to you when he

15:06

goes to the data the stage in

15:08

your relationship Early in the relationship. Is

15:11

that? He's. Willing to listen

15:14

and that there are things that he

15:16

will do. For. You including

15:18

take care of himself for you

15:20

and that signals to you that

15:22

he series by users about this

15:24

relationship wants it to work out

15:26

and also that you're a positive

15:28

influence you having a positive impact

15:30

on him. And. His

15:32

life and his. Oral.

15:35

Hygiene. So. Yeah.

15:38

He. Got him to stop dipping. Don't.

15:40

Be sad now. That. Nagging

15:42

That nagging. Don't be shy than

15:44

just say, you know what? You.

15:47

Should see the dentist. Hello would do with

15:49

last time you saw the devils go to

15:51

the dentist. Just get everything. Checked.

15:53

out and psychologically i think that's gonna make

15:55

you feel a little bit better with a

15:57

dentist says maybe did a little damage but

15:59

things look good and things are improving

16:01

and your oral health is fine. You

16:05

hearing that from the dentist will probably alleviate

16:07

your lingering discomfort about

16:11

what you were ingesting when you were kissing

16:13

him, back when he was dipping. And you're

16:15

not ingesting that shit now. And

16:19

because you asked him to stop,

16:21

and he did. So ask him to

16:23

go to the dentist, and I bet he will. Hi,

16:26

Dan. I'm a

16:28

35-year-old cishet woman in a year

16:30

and a half long monogamish relationship.

16:33

During this time, we were living together

16:35

in the city that I was working.

16:38

But I was working remotely. And

16:40

I moved about 10 hours away to a

16:42

small town where my partner

16:44

was offered affordable housing. That

16:48

was about a year ago. During

16:50

the last year, I started to

16:52

feel a bit resentful about our

16:55

sex life. My

16:57

partner does not like to

16:59

engage in any foreplay. And

17:01

originally, when I brought it up, they said

17:03

they would do anything to

17:05

make me happy. But they continued

17:08

to not want to engage in any foreplay.

17:10

And when I started to bring it up, it

17:13

caused a fight. They said

17:15

that sex is a chore, which

17:18

really made me sad, especially because they

17:20

want to have sex pretty much

17:22

every day. And when I say sex,

17:24

I mean, you know, penetrant intercourse with

17:26

me. And they

17:29

also said that going down

17:31

on me reminds them

17:33

of a time when they were experiencing a

17:35

lot of sexual trauma. I

17:37

guess my first question is, is it

17:40

fair that I feel so resentful about this?

17:43

I mean, when someone brings up sexual trauma, of course,

17:46

they want to be compassionate

17:48

and considerate and accommodating and not

17:50

put our partners through anything more

17:53

traumatic. But At the same

17:55

time, I've just lost pretty much all enthusiasm

17:57

to have sex the way it is. That

18:00

we have been doing it even I continued

18:02

to do it every day. The.

18:05

Second issue is that. My.

18:07

Job is going back. In. Person.

18:10

So I have to choose between

18:12

moving back to the city that

18:14

I loved about alone or stay

18:16

in a small town on lose

18:18

my job basically and find a

18:20

new job here and I just

18:22

scapegoating. The sexual issue.

18:25

And kind of replacing it with this issue

18:27

about my job because on the one hand

18:30

they feel like it's an easy out and

18:32

kinda so on and keep my job and

18:34

then we don't ever after bring up this

18:36

touchy sexual issue of Reagan. Or.

18:40

You know, is that kind of a cheap thing

18:42

to do. I think this

18:44

is a false choice is no. Choose.

18:46

The Job does. The reason you're

18:48

admitting this relationship, a point to

18:50

your sexual dissatisfaction in this relationship

18:52

is reason to. As with this

18:54

relationship, I think you should. Blow

18:58

it all the fuck up. You should tell

19:00

this guy look my jobs going back to

19:02

in person. I'm not gonna quit my job

19:04

or try to buy the new job here

19:07

and moving back to the city that I

19:09

love. Imperative Woods motivating me. To.

19:11

Move back to the city I

19:13

love for. The job that I

19:15

already have is that we're just

19:17

not work in our were sexually

19:20

incompatible. You are not satisfying me

19:22

sexually and are tried to address

19:24

it with you are brought it

19:26

up. I've talked about it and

19:28

there's been no change. So I

19:30

am. Out. Seems.

19:32

To me that if the sex were working

19:34

and your partner were attentive and. Valued.

19:38

Are prioritized your pleasure at all and

19:40

wasn't just using you are Gov fuck

19:42

puppet. Whenever he felt like goods you

19:44

might be tempted to stay home, gets

19:46

resume out there and fight in a

19:48

job at the relationships don't working out

19:50

and he needs to know why it's

19:52

not working out. He needs to know.

19:55

The. You don't want him to come with you? And

19:59

he won't know that. don't want him to come

20:01

with you if you don't tell him that the

20:03

real reason you're breaking up with him and having

20:06

to go back to work for

20:08

a job you love and the city you love is just

20:11

not a convenient excuse but a

20:14

reason to pull the plug and pull the

20:16

plug now he might

20:19

try to follow you back to the city

20:21

where you used to live he

20:23

might not quite get that

20:26

it's not the job it's really not the job even

20:28

if you were staying put even if you had a

20:30

new job in the city where you live with this

20:32

guy you should be getting the

20:34

fuck out of this relationship with this selfish

20:38

inconsiderate try

20:40

not hard at all asshole

20:43

who's not an attentive lover you

20:46

deserve better and

20:48

a fresh start in an old

20:51

city not a new city we have

20:54

a job already lined up it

20:56

just happens to be the job

20:58

you already have yeah

21:01

go go home move home be

21:04

employed and happy and content

21:06

in a place you love

21:09

and be single and

21:11

get out there and find somebody somebody

21:13

new who cares about

21:15

you who believes that

21:18

foreplay isn't a chore that

21:21

foreplay is a pleasure and

21:23

sometimes foreplay can be play

21:26

but it doesn't have to come before

21:29

penetration you

21:32

deserve better than this guy the change

21:35

in your job your job going

21:37

in person again it's not

21:39

an excuse it's an opportunity

21:42

but you should tell him that you're seizing this

21:44

opportunity get the fuck out of this relationship not

21:47

because of your job

21:50

but because of your dissatisfaction and

21:53

then move and do not let him come with

21:55

you he tells you oh I'll

21:57

be different I'll come with you I'll change

22:00

I'll try, no, no. You

22:03

tried, you talked about it, he didn't listen,

22:05

he made no changes, he's continued

22:08

to use you as

22:10

a fleshlight puppet, no, no, he doesn't get to

22:12

come with. Break the fuck up

22:14

with him, DTMFA, move

22:16

home, single. Hey,

22:18

I just wanted to jump in here at the end

22:20

of this response to say, maybe you notice I misgendered

22:22

the caller's partner, they're non-binary,

22:24

I used he, him pronouns and

22:26

reference to the caller's non-binary partner.

22:28

I've read online a million times

22:30

that when you misgender someone who's

22:32

non-binary, that you should just quickly

22:35

apologize and move on. So, I

22:37

am apologizing and now let's move

22:39

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you dipsiestories.com/Savage. Hey,

24:23

Dan. I'm

24:25

a 36-year-old trans male

24:27

from Denver, Colorado.

24:30

Longtime listener and

24:32

reader. The reason for

24:34

my call is I'm having a hard time

24:37

finding a girlfriend. It seems like

24:39

no matter what I

24:41

do, I can't find a girlfriend to save my

24:43

life. I feel like I'm a pretty

24:45

good dude. Like I have my shit together. I

24:47

treat women well. You know,

24:50

I don't think I'm ugly by any

24:52

means. I have not had lower surgery, so I'm

24:54

wondering if that's maybe the reason why,

24:57

like, once they find that out or once they find

24:59

out I'm a trans guy. Yeah,

25:01

so I, you know, I don't know, I don't

25:03

know what it is, but I think maybe I

25:06

sometimes I lesbian it. I mean, I

25:09

guess old habits, you know, die hard, but that's about

25:11

it. I mean, I kind of move a little fast,

25:13

but I'm like, are we doing

25:15

this or not? You know, because I'm 36 and

25:19

I feel like maybe sometimes running

25:21

out. So I'm wondering if maybe you could

25:23

give me some of your advice. Like, what

25:26

do you think it

25:28

is with women being so

25:30

judgmental against trans guys? Or

25:33

maybe it has nothing to do with women. It's maybe

25:35

it's just me and the women I think. I don't

25:37

know. But also I just wanted

25:39

to give a shout out to my bisexual

25:42

and straight women out there.

25:45

Give trans men a chance, you know, I

25:47

don't speak for everybody, but I think we're

25:49

all around good dudes. You know, we've

25:51

lived life as both. We've walked through

25:53

the world as both. So we're

25:56

understanding we listen, you know, all the

25:58

good stuff. And then when

26:00

it comes to like sexual stuff in the sack,

26:02

I think we're rock stars in

26:04

the sack. You know, we're not selfish.

26:07

It's all about you. We last a long time,

26:09

you know, all that good

26:11

stuff. So give your local

26:13

trans man a chance. I'm

26:16

running your call primarily because I wanted to

26:18

put out there into the world everything you

26:20

had to say there at the end to

26:24

buy in straight women about why they might want

26:26

to give their local trans

26:28

guy a chance, including,

26:31

you know, trans

26:33

guy can last all night

26:36

because the trans guy who

26:39

hasn't had bottom surgery and he's strapping it on

26:42

so that he can give you the penetrative sex that

26:44

you want. Yeah, that lasts as

26:46

long as you want it.

26:49

The only thing I wanted to flag from

26:51

the question part of your call

26:53

as opposed to the rallying

26:56

cry part of your call that

26:58

I fully endorse is you

27:00

said when the women that you

27:03

date find out that you haven't had

27:05

lower surgery or once they find out

27:07

you're a trans guy, that that's when

27:09

things go south or end. And

27:13

maybe you're dating some people that you're meeting

27:15

the way people used

27:18

to meet at work on street, at

27:20

school, and it's not immediately apparent that

27:22

you're a trans guy. And that has

27:25

to be disclosed at some point. And you

27:27

may have disclosed that to a series of

27:30

cis women who were not

27:34

the kind of cis women who could see themselves

27:36

dating a trans guy. I don't think

27:38

the fact that you haven't had bottom surgery is going

27:41

to be an issue for a lot of straight

27:44

and by women who are open

27:46

to dating trans guys,

27:49

most trans guys don't get

27:51

bottom surgery. Bottom surgery has many

27:55

complications and Most

27:58

trans guys that I know haven't had a. The

28:00

bottom surgery and get along

28:02

just fine with the genitals

28:04

that they. Are born

28:06

with and that they. Still, Love

28:09

and. Toys. And

28:11

strap ons and can

28:13

express themselves and enjoy

28:16

sex and. Meet. Their

28:18

partner's needs and like you sets

28:20

lost all night so I would just

28:22

encourage that. In addition, if this is

28:24

the issue that you're meetings, Ces: Women

28:27

by Women Straight women. Hopefully.

28:29

Road open to dating trans women

28:31

as wealth, but you're meeting them

28:33

in contact swear. The.

28:36

Trans thing is gonna have to be disclosed

28:38

in the assumption they made about the gym.

28:40

Italia you might have could be. You.

28:42

Know a bump for them. To me

28:45

that they bump on. I hope you're

28:47

also doing yourself a favor of disclosing

28:49

your that you're trans guy on dating

28:52

apps. If you live in a place

28:54

where you feel comfortable and safe pick

28:56

out as trans person to personal trans

28:59

people do. But if you do putting

29:01

that out there in the world okay

29:03

you might meet some women who fetishized

29:06

you're trans knows. Maybe.

29:09

You. Might also meet some women that

29:11

you being a trans guy is

29:13

irrelevant or all the advantages he

29:15

cited to be with a trans

29:17

guy including ability to last all

29:19

night. Are. Selling Point:

29:21

Something that a woman whose dated

29:23

other trans guys. Liked.

29:26

Em would like to have in their

29:28

life again or something that a woman

29:30

who hasn't added a trans guy before

29:32

is open to and maven wanna do

29:34

to trans guy for the reasons that

29:36

you laid out even if they'd never

29:38

dated a trans guy before. So in

29:40

addition to meeting people were you're trans

29:43

this and the bottom surgery thing. Will.

29:45

Have to be disclosed down the road. If.

29:48

You feel safe putting it on dating

29:50

apps, putting it out there to people

29:52

before you meet them. Well

29:54

then the people who. Slide.

29:57

into your dm their send you a message on

29:59

okay you better hinge or twinge in

30:01

Twinder, Tinder, Twinder, for people who want

30:03

to date identical twins, will

30:06

know, and it will be a non-issue

30:08

and not something that when you have

30:10

to disclose it could derail the

30:13

relationship because you disclosed it in

30:16

advance at the start. Good

30:18

luck. There's a lot of people out there your age who

30:21

are single and frustrated and want to

30:23

pin their frustrations

30:26

on something. And

30:28

usually people will pick something obvious,

30:31

their age, their size,

30:33

their transness, their queerness,

30:35

their whatever-ness. Sometimes

30:37

it can be, I just wanted to tack

30:40

this on here at the end caller, it can just be a coincidence.

30:42

It can just be a string of bad luck. But

30:45

if you've noticed again and again, it's

30:48

the when you told them you were trans, was

30:51

the problem? Really, try telling

30:53

them you're trans before the first date,

30:56

before the first meeting, before the first

30:59

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32:56

Dan, I'm a 40 year old gay guy

32:59

from the Rocky Mountains. I'm HIV positive. I'm

33:02

undetectable though. I've been undetectable for

33:04

a while. I get my

33:06

labs done regularly. I also

33:08

take doxy pep. I've been monkey

33:10

pox vaccinated, all that stuff. On

33:13

my grinder profile, I'm open about that.

33:15

I indicate that I'm positive that I'm

33:17

undetectable. I indicate the last dates that

33:19

I've been tested and all of that.

33:22

So my question is, when I

33:24

hook up with guys, I don't

33:26

always necessarily bring it up. I

33:28

don't always say, hey, by the way, I'm

33:30

undetectable since it's in my profile. And

33:33

I guess maybe stupidly, I assume that

33:35

they look at that. Do

33:37

I need to bring that up with everyone that

33:39

I sleep with? Or is it just

33:41

being in my profile enough? I

33:44

asked because I had a situation recently where I

33:46

hooked up with this guy. It

33:48

was great. And then I get home

33:50

and he's texting me freaking out because he

33:53

just now saw my profile that I'm HIV

33:55

positive undetectable. He didn't know what that meant.

33:57

So I spent some time educating him and

33:59

sending him. him some links on what being

34:01

undetectable means and assured him that he was

34:03

safe and fine and, you

34:05

know, and that seemed to calm him down. But

34:07

I'm just wondering, is this a conversation that I

34:09

need to be having with everyone since it's on

34:11

my profile? I mean, when

34:14

I go out to like big sex parties

34:16

and things, I'm not telling every single person

34:18

that I sleep with that I'm HIV positive

34:20

undetectable. Maybe I should be. I

34:23

don't know. Am I fucking up

34:25

here or what's the way to deal with

34:27

this? If it's right

34:29

there in your grinder profile, I don't

34:31

think you're obligated to disclose

34:34

it. You might want

34:36

to disclose it to avoid having exactly

34:38

this conversation again in the future. You

34:40

could even just say, hey, did you read

34:43

my entire profile? Then

34:45

if somebody is

34:48

ill-informed, doesn't understand that

34:50

undetectable means uninfectious or

34:53

untransmissible, doesn't get

34:55

what a zero viral load

34:57

means, they'll

34:59

pass on you. But then you

35:01

will pass on this. You

35:03

won't have to endure this kind of freak

35:06

out again from somebody who decides to, I guess

35:08

like this guy did, go and read your grinder

35:11

profile after having sex. That's when he's going to

35:13

do his screw diligence. That's when he's going to

35:15

read what isn't, I think, on

35:17

Grindr, the fine print, but you put

35:20

it out there. You disclosed,

35:24

as for sex parties, as for

35:27

group sex, I think it is

35:29

just understood at sex parties,

35:31

at big gay sex parties,

35:34

that people need to

35:36

be looking out for themselves, but also

35:38

people know that a certain number of

35:40

people in the room are probably HIV

35:43

positive. Hopefully they are on

35:46

medications. Hopefully they're compliant with

35:48

their drug regimen and are

35:51

undetectable and therefore their

35:54

HIV is untransmissible. Also

35:56

hopefully everybody at that sex party is on

35:58

PrEP, which makes them... almost

36:01

uninfectable. That's

36:04

why we see HIV infection rates falling

36:06

in certain segments of the gay community,

36:08

segments of the gay community that have

36:10

access to PrEP and

36:12

treatment, but yeah. I

36:14

don't think everybody with a sexually transmitted infection at

36:16

a large group sex party

36:18

is obligated to run around the room

36:21

telling everybody what everybody at that sex

36:23

party should assume. If you're at a

36:25

sex party with 100 guys, a

36:28

certain significant percentage of those guys are

36:31

gonna have HIV and possibly

36:33

other sexually transmitted infections, which

36:35

is why you can, if

36:39

you really wanna protect yourself, insist on

36:41

condoms at some sex parties. Unfortunately, if

36:43

you insist on condoms, you will be

36:45

shown the door, but you

36:47

can also protect yourself with

36:49

PrEP, with DoxyPEP, or

36:52

by enjoying sexual activities that don't place

36:54

you at significant risk

36:56

of acquiring significant

37:00

sexually transmitted infections, like

37:02

HIV. I don't think you did

37:04

anything wrong, personally, you disclosed,

37:07

it's on your grinder profile, somebody

37:10

wants to fuck you, yeah, they

37:12

should read your grinder profile before they fuck

37:14

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can get one today. He

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danced so I'm calling

38:42

because wanted and talk

38:44

about something that. until

38:46

a little bit stuck with the kink of

38:48

mine. It's. Called wet

38:50

and Messy are also like

38:53

Wham for a short. Pretty.

38:55

Much it involves. Getting.

38:58

Covered and like substances you

39:00

know, whether that be like

39:02

slime are like getting paid

39:04

for wrestling in the mud.

39:07

Or. Li wrestling that sorta thing.

39:09

that kind of might change. And

39:12

I've been feeling a little bit

39:14

stuck with it last few years,

39:17

mainly as ashamed and don't know

39:19

how to really break past it.

39:21

I've gotten together with guys on

39:24

this and the past so hooked

39:26

up. and have actually

39:28

done this through the of site that

39:31

like sort of like. Sort.

39:33

of I think of like a safe

39:35

space for this for people who are

39:37

and assorted detaching. A band

39:39

together with my current long

39:41

term boyfriend for a few

39:43

years now. And even

39:45

brought this up to him that

39:48

I'm into it and even offered

39:50

to indulge in it. But.

39:53

I've. Turned upside down and had sort

39:55

of like back dos. From.

39:57

This distance. an assault

40:00

about it. So we're kind of

40:02

wondering if you have any advice

40:05

on something like this. Just trying to break

40:08

past this side of me that's

40:10

like, I know

40:12

it's harmless and something

40:15

to be enjoyed but I can't

40:17

help but deal with some sort of level of shame about it.

40:20

I gotta say it seems a little nuts to me that

40:22

you were able to get past the shame

40:24

of being gay. You

40:26

put dicks in your mouth, you have sex with

40:28

other men, you maybe like a lot of gay

40:30

men put your tongue in other men's butts before

40:33

you fuck their butts and

40:35

yet even though you were able to work

40:38

through the shame that so many people

40:40

attach to gay sex and accept yourself

40:42

and have a boyfriend, you

40:44

aren't able somehow to exercise the same

40:47

muscle in overcoming the shame

40:49

that is attached to

40:51

your kink. And

40:54

I don't think as you don't when

40:56

you think about it logically that there's

40:58

anything for you to be ashamed about

41:00

here. There's something that

41:02

you like that other people don't like

41:04

and maybe some people don't get but

41:06

it doesn't hurt you, it doesn't hurt

41:08

your partners, there are other people out

41:10

there that share this kink that you

41:12

can find thanks to the internet. The

41:14

internet has truly transformed the lives of

41:16

people with very niche kinks

41:19

by creating communities where in the past

41:21

no communities existed and opportunities

41:23

where in the past opportunities

41:25

were few and far between and

41:28

you're able to enjoy this and act

41:30

on it with other people who what does it

41:32

do for them? It does for them what it does for you,

41:34

it creates joy, it

41:36

makes them happy, it makes you

41:39

happy and your boyfriend who's offered to do

41:41

this for you he may be one of

41:43

those people who's not offering to indulge

41:46

their kinky partner in their kink to control

41:48

their kinky partner because they're insecure and don't

41:50

want their kinky partner enjoying their kinks with

41:53

anybody else but because he's

41:55

truly invested in your pleasure And

41:57

even though this isn't his thing, he might

41:59

take. Pleasure from providing you

42:01

with this pleasure. And

42:03

every once in awhile. A kink is

42:06

contagious. Every once in awhile somebody indulges a

42:08

partner. Embarrassing and I think well this is

42:10

my thing but my partner like says Simon

42:12

to do it for them and it sparked

42:15

something. I don't think it. Creates

42:17

a kink where none existed, but sometimes

42:19

somebody else King vibes with something in

42:22

your erotic imagination that was there and

42:24

a kind of graft takes to letting

42:26

your boyfriend do this for you if

42:28

he's doing it for you for the

42:30

right reasons. He.

42:33

May wind up being just as into it is

42:35

you are. have always said if you listen to

42:37

the so you've heard me say it's two kinds

42:39

of guys meet a big status events meet The

42:41

guys were time themselves up when there were twelve

42:43

and you meet the guys who fell in love

42:45

with those guys and then fell in love with

42:47

tying those guys up. Your partner may fall in

42:49

love with. Hitting. Me with

42:52

pies and dumping paint and syrup and

42:54

do all over you. and it might

42:56

help if you just think about. All.

42:58

The other people out there in

43:00

the world with crazy fuckin kinks

43:02

that are different from yours but

43:04

there may be something in their

43:07

dna that resembles yours. People I

43:09

know people talk to out there

43:11

who are into wet and messy

43:13

wham also sometimes called guns and

43:15

or splashing will talk about how.

43:17

It. Relieve them of the burden of

43:20

the performance of salt that once they're

43:22

completely covered in all of that slime

43:24

which may be turns them on because

43:27

they were exposed Nickelodeon programming during their

43:29

formative years he to racism which is

43:31

similar to. The. person

43:33

who likes to dress up and

43:35

head to toe rubber and transform

43:37

themselves into a drone were those

43:39

for he likes to put on

43:41

the first sued with that dot

43:44

the full thing with the head

43:46

and disappear into this anthropomorphizes to

43:48

animal mascots character in a race

43:50

themselves or those cross dresser are

43:52

loads woman who enjoys dressing up

43:54

in a superhero costume that includes

43:56

masks that a racer of self

43:58

that relieved of the of

44:00

performing yourself that rubbering

44:04

up provides to the drone or that

44:06

wet and messy provides to you I

44:09

think I get it it's

44:11

understandable and I think

44:13

your boyfriend is saying to you that he

44:15

kind of gets it too and he wants

44:17

to go there for you and you should

44:19

let him and you should let yourself dude

44:22

times a waste him your kink

44:24

is not going anywhere if

44:26

this makes your dick hard and has

44:28

been making your dick hard for

44:30

decades it is going to make your dick hard

44:33

forever and there will come a point maybe

44:35

five years from now ten years from now where you

44:37

finally accepted yourself and you're no longer as inhibited

44:40

as you are now and you're going to look back

44:42

at this time the decade of

44:44

your 20s already gone and this time in

44:46

your 30s which tick-tock times

44:49

the waste and you're going to regret all

44:52

the pleasurable

44:54

experiences connections joy you could

44:56

have experience shared

44:59

with guys you met through

45:01

the kink website who maybe then you had

45:03

other things in common with and you made

45:05

great friends because of your shared kink or

45:07

with your boyfriend who for all

45:09

you know after he does this with you a

45:11

half a dozen times for you is going to

45:14

want to do it with you for himself

45:17

or want you to do

45:19

it for him too that

45:21

sometimes how kinks work sometimes

45:23

they are contagious

45:27

all right time for everybody's favorite part

45:29

of the show listener feedback first up

45:31

some of the comments left on last

45:33

week's show in the very lively comment

45:35

threads at savage dot love says

45:38

mythic box I'd advise the caller wanting

45:40

to smooth things over with her ex

45:42

to stop and consider her motivations I've

45:44

been exactly where she is and managed

45:46

to breach the communication barrier to talk

45:48

things out partway through that

45:50

conversation I suddenly realized that

45:52

despite sincerely wanting to make things better for

45:55

my ex my primary motivation

45:57

was to make myself feel better about

46:00

what I'd done and I

46:02

felt shittier." Says Lance

46:04

Hunter, opening with seven minutes of Dan

46:06

giving his opinion on a movie he

46:08

hasn't even seen. Challengers have marketed as

46:10

the Zendaya Threesome movie, but the film

46:13

is clearly trying to say things about

46:15

human connection that are too rich

46:18

and complicated to be simplified into

46:20

any specific sex act.

46:22

Alright, in fairness to me, I wasn't commenting

46:24

on the film, which I haven't seen. I

46:26

was commenting on the marketing of the film,

46:28

which I have seen, seen that trailer a

46:31

dozen times. And you know what? Those things don't

46:33

seem to be in conflict or tension for

46:36

me. You could make a film

46:38

that comments on the human connection

46:40

and how complicated human connection is

46:42

while also showing

46:44

us the goddamn threesome you promised us in

46:46

the trailer. Finally, says phenomenon. Me thinks Mr.

46:49

Savage is so eager to see someone Muppet-faced,

46:51

indulging in MM activity on screen that he

46:53

misses the clear pipeline from the desire to

46:55

see that MM

47:05

activity on screen to bachelorette parties

47:07

and gay bars. I doubt

47:09

he'll be disappointed in that scene when

47:11

he finally sees Challengers. His interpretation sounds

47:13

much closer to the truth than that

47:15

of the reviewer he quoted. I

47:18

will do it. I promise this week as

47:20

God is my witness, I am going to

47:23

see Challengers. Alright, for more

47:25

listener feedback, check out Struggle Session where

47:27

I respond to listener and reader comments,

47:29

which goes up most Thursdays at

47:31

savage.love. And now, listener

47:34

response calls. Hi,

47:36

Dan. I have a response call to a

47:39

response call. This is for

47:41

the guy who called in saying,

47:44

oh, don't ask someone, hey, would you want to

47:46

go out sometime? Give them a specific activity to

47:48

respond to. I don't think that's

47:50

a bad idea except that the way

47:52

he framed it makes it sound like

47:54

he's not making it clear intentionally

47:57

to the person that it's a date. And

48:00

I think that's a terrible idea because of someone

48:02

that I only kind of know in passing, which

48:04

is like, they want to go to a concert,

48:06

all of a sudden, I would be very confused

48:09

about what their intentions are

48:11

or if they got confused and thought

48:13

that I really like the specific band

48:15

or I know their friend who was

48:17

having a party or something. Make

48:19

it clear that it's a date. This

48:21

is a response to

48:24

the 60-something gay guy

48:26

who had 20-something men

48:28

chasing after him. My

48:31

only reaction to that whole call was

48:34

just seething envy because I'm also a

48:36

gay man in his early 60s and

48:39

I don't have any 20-something knocking on my

48:41

door. So I really don't see what his

48:43

whole problem was. Hi,

48:45

Dan. This is in reference to episode 915,

48:48

the 77-year-old man with

48:50

the submissive fantasy. I'm

48:53

a professional dominatrix in New York City and

48:55

I have two clients in their upper 70s

48:58

and we have so

49:00

much fun. It's

49:03

an honor and a privilege to me to be able

49:05

to be the person that helps facilitate

49:07

and make their fantasies

49:09

come true. They're

49:12

among my favorite sluts and I

49:14

look forward to seeing them whenever

49:16

they come. I really

49:18

encourage this caller to try a professional

49:20

dominatrix, somebody that can be more of

49:22

a kinky genie rather than maybe a

49:24

high protocol dominatrix. If he wants to

49:26

do this, this is the best time

49:29

to do it. And

49:32

we're going to leave it there. We've got

49:34

three great leads for you to get us

49:36

your questions or comments for future shows. You

49:39

can record your questions at savage.love.askDan. Or

49:41

you can make a voice memo on your very

49:43

own phone and email your question or comment to

49:45

Q at savage.love. Or you can

49:47

call us on our landline and leave us a message at 206-302-2064. Hump

49:53

2024 Part 1, my dirty little

49:55

film festival, is coming to Brooklyn and Durham,

49:57

North Carolina this weekend to get you to

49:59

the stage. tickets to these or any

50:01

of our other spring tour shows go

50:03

to humpfilmfest.com right now and

50:06

while you're there swing on over

50:08

to humpfilmfest.com/submit to find out how

50:10

you can get your dirty

50:13

little masterpiece in the hump 2025

50:15

follow me on instagram and threads at Dan

50:18

Savage follow me on blue sky at Dan

50:20

Savage you'll find me at the bad place

50:22

at fake Dan Savage. Learn more about Peggy

50:24

Orenstein's work or to find out more about

50:27

her book and hand she order one or

50:29

two check out her website

50:31

Peggy orenstein.com. Savage

50:33

Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and

50:35

me and the tech savvy at risk youth and

50:38

Nancy we will all be back at you

50:40

next week with an installment of Savage Lovecast. Thank

50:42

you for joining us. you